Fixing Open Deck Blocks For BOOST (On The Cheap-ish)

[@Seeeeyaaaa]

Finally..someone who understands the advantages of a deck plate, Ive had countless arguments with people on this subject.

[@whoquadrophenia]

I tried to go that route for my Volvo 850 5 cylinder but when I talked to the machine shop initial he said so problem the Honda block cost around 600 Canadian dollars to install and all the CNC work. But when he got back to me he said said because it is a unique engine and so on it was gonna be 1400 plus dollars to install the block guard. On top of that he said he had to cut into part of the cylinder to install the guard and would only Guarantee it for 600hp. So I figured at that money may as well go darton so now I have a block that's super overbuilt for no reason.

[@jareknowak8712]

"Only 600". Is Your 850 still FWD?

[@hpa101]

How much power have you built the rest of the car to handle? Nothing wrong with going with Darton Sleeves if you need them, but someone else mentioned these guys in the comments and on their horrible, horrible website they have your engine listed 😅 - Taz. cylindersupportsystem.com/

[@flyfaen1]

Once the slit is machined away and a deck plate of 7068 (alloy not too far from the Volvo casting) is installed, you can throw more at it than you'll be able to use. With the deck plate I'd say they will hold 800 honest over time. Also, on the 5 cyl. you have the ability to use the D5244T "D5" block (different mounts, and one oil-return gallerie needs to be modified). Team-X-Racing in Sweden used the diesel block (19mm taller deck, so longer rods and less lateral force) with just a MLS gasket as support, and they ran honest 1000 hp in dragracing for two seasons in a row. A "D5" block with a deck-plate is "bulletproof" for most practical means.

[@SkillCap]

Who did you go to that quoted 1400? I’ve been looking to get a block guard for my next t5 build and I was thinking of going thru deeworks or css

[@allan80supra]

Open WHAT???!! ;)

[@kimboDragon]

dick lol

[@hpa101]

What we're all thinking: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2fGZYGrpdOoppI

[@allan80supra]

A new line of HP Academy engine sealants personally approved by Andre?

[@harrymanback5817]

Same :) "translate to English" mode on :)

[@402SHO]

Cylinder Support System is a company that can take a open deck and make it semi closed I see these blocks everywhere from Honda to ecoboost v6’s and Nissan Vq’s

[@robhudson6133]

In Australia the open deck goes into an open box Love the videos Biggest up on the podcast

[@ray1394f]

Great video once again. One thing I think need to talk about is what is extreme power mean when different people viewing different power levels as extreme. I think it is needed to mention the cars in the background are all close to 1000hp, and both still use decking plate. Biggest problem with sleeve is not the product itself, but who and how it is put in, it is not easy to get it right, the normal so called specialist shops will most likely get it wrong, sleeve sink, and done more damage than to begin with. Maybe it is only the case with aluminium blocks, but still in my opinion, close decking is better solution for most of the us.

[@hpa101]

Yeah you're not wrong, it's all relative though rather than being an easy X HP is this or that. We should setup some sort of 'Andre power scale' for reference though haha - Taz.

[@DAI.H4RD]

A kiwi talking about decks... and it didn't sound bad... top notch vid guys!

[@randellgribben9772]

i like your videos.. very proffessional... not going for cheap laughs like other channels

[@hpa101]

Cheers for the support! We do have a sense of humour but theres a time and place for it for sure - Taz.

[@p0intdk]

4PistonRacing on a AMA-type video said that a block guard or whatever you wanna call them work very well, even though they themselves only do sleeved blocks.

[@jakemercedes280]

"Open deck" i always clean my deck best as possible.

[@gqh007]

There it is

[@mickael_guitara]

I've been searching for that comment

[@Thee_Snow_Wolf]

Have you ever seen or had experience with using "dowel pins" with an open deck? Basically you're putting a piece aluminium (seen brass used as well) round bar between the liner wall and the water jacket wall to try and pin the cylinders in place. I've most commonly seen it on Subarus and Volvos. It's a tempting option since the engine I'm looking at isn't commonly modified thus the option for sleeves / deck plates are non existence / custom one offs.

[@jareknowak8712]

I have seen it in VQ35.

[@turbotysen]

I just saw someone do that do an LS on the water jacket openings and an LS aint even open deck.

[@gordowg1wg145]

It can certainly help, but the problem is that the cylinders are then more stressed where the pins/dowels are, and while they may not fail, they can distort and compromise ring seal. Something similar is where a curved insert is used, that follows the curve of the cylinder over a greater length and so spreads the loads.

[@2511jeremy]

Another awesome video👍👨‍💻

[@mixxeerr]

Does your Engine building course cover closing an open deck and what it does for cooling in a circuit racing car?

[@rafaellastracom6411]

One question, you mention the plate is press-fit into the block and I begin to think about slightly difference thermal expansion rates for a cast block and a billet plate. They are both aluminium so it won´t be much but is it something that should be calculated and taken into consideration? I would not be concerned in most other applications but in such a critical area where the head to block seal must be maintained it raises a flag, albeit a small one.

[@gordowg1wg145]

Just to clarify, it isn't the cylinder pressures, per se, that are normally the problem because that's applied evenly around the cylinder - so no imbalance, no movement as a result. The problem is the major thrust-side loadings drastically increase from the higher piston force on the angled connecting rod - it's a simple vector equation.

[@jonmotes5406]

Awesome comment! I have a H22A4 open deck with FRM sleeves. With a block guard what would be a safe HP range? I’d like to push it a little bit

[@gordowg1wg145]

@@jonmotes5406 I'm not a Honda guy, but from what I've seen it looks like 5-600 is 'safe' on a forged bottom end, and some have pushed it a bit harder. However, you should really check with the Honda specialists - an upgraded block with Darton sleevs that engage with the main block may not be that expensive relative to the full build, and if you need a rebore anyway...?

[@jonmotes5406]

@@gordowg1wg145 yea I need to measure my bore and see what that tells me.

[@gordowg1wg145]

@@jonmotes5406 As I said, I'm not a "Honda" guy - but I've been following these channels for years, in case you're unaware of them, they have been almost exclusively K, B and J series Honda engines, in various states of tune - www.youtube.com/@boostedboiz www.youtube.com/@PFISpeedtube

[@vigorosoPIMPJr]

I have a Maserati Ghibli SQ4 with a ECU tune I can push 524hp but I wanted to mod the car to get closer to 700hp but I was told it’s open deck so they don’t recommend it. What would you recommend? Would that piece help keep the engine from kicking the bucket?

[@jonmotes5406]

Considering doing this on my Honda H22A4. It has FRM sleeves which are extremely strong however I have come to the conclusion that the sleeve isn’t the issue, but the block design being open deck is what would cause a weak point. What would be a safe power goal if I installed something like this on my engine?

[@misfit4816]

If I could find one for the EJ22E I'd be set but I'd have to get one custom

[@ethansmith800]

Great information

[@hpa101]

Cheers Ethan - Taz.

[@hyper8545]

Nice 👌

[@CRAZCHEVBOY]

drink ever deck :D

[@sidbobby3233]

Pls mind my silliness but could u press maybe another 1 slightly deeper say 4 sake of a measurement 50mm from the final top deck plate to enhance strength more? A Few"Tuners " here offer a so called "block mod" on the Mk2 Rs/St focus 5 pot which some wedge the open deck. How do u guys stand on this method? As always ur videos make me think and learn. Thank & 🖒👊✌ from the UK

[@starfox_wr-45e93]

Prob possible, but to my un-trained and totally amateur engineering mind, sounds like this might lead to cavitation/bleeding/air-lock issues in the water jacket. I could be totally wrong however.. ( I think you'd be better off with a thicker top plate and calling it a day if going to that extent. I even raise my eyebrows regarding getting a cnc that deep into the block to clearance even that, say, 15mm extra thickness. Then again, I'm not a cnc guy either lol)

[@sidbobby3233]

Thank u I appreciate your insight mate. It was just 1 of them what if I put another 1 slightly deeper to provide more stable bore ect. With regards to u saying "cavitation" pls can u explain if that regards piston in the bore or r u refuring to fluids and cavitation? Pls excuse my ignorance mate but I love the fact that I am watching something that makes me go "What if I did this or that" and have the ability to then bounce that off like minded people. Appreciate it time. Thanks & ✌ from the UK

[@starfox_wr-45e93]

@@sidbobby3233 Cavitation of the coolant that runs around the bores. Not an ideal situation to have places in the block where air can get trapped I suspect. Maybe some coolant wouldn't be able to circulate, become stagnant and create hotspots. Closed deck blocks will have channeled waterways to avoid all that. Open deck blocks have a lake for coolant to swim in, in comparison lol I think having two plates without having a guided flow for the coolant wouldn't be ideal. Coolant needs the least resistance to flow while having the most contact area on heat critical components to work efficiently. If you google image search "engine block water jacket cutaway" you should see some images.. notice how the water mostly has a "straight-shot" from top to bottom. A second plate isn't going to have that at all. At least, I cant see how it would. Maybe if you chambered the water channels severely, but that would possibly compromise the strength of the plate and the nullify whole point of installing it to begin with.. Also in the U.K btw 😁

[@starfox_wr-45e93]

@@sidbobby3233 Just to add. This solution in this video (single deck plate) is good for some serious HP.. 1000hp in some applications. Sometimes the wheel doesn't need re-inventing, twice lol

[@jonmotes5406]

@@starfox_wr-45e93 wow that’s impressive. I have an H22A4 and was wondering with this block guard what type of HP it could handle safely.

[@nickg00]

Can those plates be welded to the block?

[@MrSupermasi]

What's the company name of the boxer piston logo in the background on the flag?

[@hpa101]

Deshele Performance, you can find them here: desheleperformance.com.au/ And we had a chat to Leigh here: www.hpacademy.com/blog/youre-building-your-10300rpm-8-second-subaru-ej-all-wrong-maybe/? Hope that helps! - Taz.

[@Paper.Power.Politics]

I sleeved my 2.0 focus ST block that’s goin my mustang ecoboost, shooting for 1000whp

[@dragonmantuning3792]

Is ems still at 850? I'll be back for the eco record soon lol

[@Paper.Power.Politics]

@@dragonmantuning3792 I think ems is claiming their build is at 1000whp or 1100hp. But theirs is currently not running. So it doesn’t count. And when they ran 850 it failed shortly after. I’m also using a 4 port head. And running the stock ecu instead of a aftermarket one. That’s what ems did and that’s why they can get it to run. What’s your build ? Or previous build?? My 1000whp build is still getting built so not done. Right now I have stock engine 2.3 full bolt on , nx2 at 400whp. Can’t wait to get my build done probably at end of the year.

[@dragonmantuning3792]

@@Paper.Power.Politics nice who's building your engine and tuning? I had two ten speeds blown up running 450 whp on e50. Right now I built a 2000 lb 1.7 liter honda but I'd like to css an ecoboost later to see what it can do

[@Paper.Power.Politics]

@@dragonmantuning3792 that so sick bro!! Yeah that’s why I’m at 400whp on e30 that’s the safe mark pretty much lol. I also have the 10 speed which is also gonna be built. And I have the best building and tuning Mine lol adam Brunson at tune plus. To me he’s the best on the focus/mustang platform. 2.0/2.3 ecoboost. I’m also using a xona. Xr 105 69s turbo. Good for 1100whp , but I have seen the evo 4g63 guys use the 95 69s and they hit 1000whp all day on those!! Xona turbo is the way to go!

[@drweedlive4469]

you did not talk about the Real CHEAP solution and its using JB Weld , Devcon ,or Block Filler , please andre make a video for this i am about to try this , also would be nice to have some EV content With AEM EV

[@hpa101]

I'm not sure JB weld would actually be much cheaper, that stuff is pretty expensive here 😂 Hope it works for you though! We're a bit off stsndlone EV Ecu content, but the first EV course is in the works with Sasha Anis at the helm for you guys 😎 - Taz

[@drweedlive4469]

@@hpa101 HELL YEAH THANKS ! i think a ev car dont need dyno anymore

[@hpa101]

An EV is different when it comes to tuning in the sense you might not need a dyno because you might simply not be able to 'tune' one for more power anyway when it comes to OEM applications comparing to how we flash tune ICE's. For a scratch-built application using the likes of an AEM EV specific ECU things are different again though. GREAT podcast here: www.hpacademy.com/blog/45-can-you-actually-tune-an-ev-for-more-power-podcast/? - Taz.

[@Andrew260RS]

Didn't HPA make their own for the FA20?

[@hpa101]

Yes, Zac (wiring guru) whipped one up for us at home because that is how he rolls. The FA20 powered 86 has taken a backseat these days though to the SR swapped one sadly - Taz.

[@bernardwarr4187]

What would be the solution if a dec plate is not available for my application? Is there anyone doing on off’s? Great information as always

[@dennismelville7532]

Just off the top of my head... would be to bore out an old cylinder head and that would come close to an actual head torque. If they don't sell one outright for your engine... most good machine shops have them available for rent too!

[@sexyfacenation]

Heaps of places would do one off's. Any one with machines can make them

[@jdmjesus6103]

Half fill

[@dennismelville7532]

@@sexyfacenation Damn... I don't know i was thinking of a "cylinder bore" tool... yeah.. if it's just a cylinder support brace.. any good machine shop can cnc or "one off" make that. Now the million dollar question to ask... what crappy air pump he's trying to "brace up" that doesn't have aftermarket support to make it a closed deck solution?

[@dinosshed]

Grout fill the block to the 3/4 mark and use a good oil cooler

[@IamKuahn]

Where can you buy a deck plate for fa20 blocks?

[@hpa101]

Zac made ours for us but you could try the likes of Deshele Performance and see what leads they have for you. It's their engine here - Taz.

[@0643052]

👌👌👌

[@SHADOWW18]

Subaru tragic's will still argue that open deck design has nothing to do with being a cheap poor design and is done for "added cooling" and performance. I've had this argument I don't know many times with these fools, There's no good engineering reason for open deck design other than corner cutting to save money.

[@hpa101]

Wouldn't say it's corner cutting, it's a manufacturing technique/option used by other car companies too. They are building engines for stock performance, not for us to tinker with otherwise they'd just come to us with 400-1000hp from the factory and be built for that. Which would also cost you more - Taz.

[@MHBGT]

@@hpa101 so I've got an open deck on my 1.6 Ford Ecoboost (Fiesta ST). At about 147k km had a seized spark plug, which necissated a cylinder head overhaul, and a light deck skim. At 153k km, it started the dreaded gulping coolant issue (1-2L every other day) which can only be attributed to a compromised head gasket or more likely, a cracked liner. 100% stock by the way. Ford have since replaced their open deck designs with newer semi-closed deck types for the newer versions of the 2.0T but opted to just discontinue the 1.6T in favour of a semi-closed deck 1.5T in their newer vehicles. So even in high-HP stock applications, the open deck is a poor choice, and OEMs know it.