John Sculley On How Steve Jobs Got Fired From Apple | Forbes

[@wheelinthesky300]

I have only ever found John Sculley to be honest. He may have been the wrong man to run Apple, but not the villain some think he is.

[@alexuwo]

Wrong. He is the villain. He was a snake and ousted Jobs. It was Steves company. Only a snake would get rid of the founder.

[@wheelinthesky300]

@@alexuwo The "Founder" was about to bankrupt the company. Scully did not oust Jobs. Scully wanted Jobs to take a different position in the company where he would not bust the budget. Steve resigned in a huff and sold his Apple shares.

[@alexuwo]

@@wheelinthesky300 The other CEOs after Jobs did bankrupt them basically including Sculley. Sculley bankrupted the company further than Jobs did. They forced him to resign by not letting him work on anything. That is being fired. They pushed him into quitting. That is being fired. And dont forget Jobs saved apple later on when he was more mature but the point im making is that he would have fixed apple eventually had he not been fired. Scully was in the wrong.

[@wheelinthesky300]

@@alexuwo Apple was profitable right up until 1996, when Jobs came back. It was never bankrupt, essentially. There is no evidence that Jobs 1.0 would have "fixed" Apple eventually. Apple was not broken, and Jobs "fixed" NEXT into bankruptcy.

[@emmanueloluga9770]

@@wheelinthesky300 Don't argue with someone that manufactures fact out of nowhere.

[@billcarlsbad6168]

I was working at Apple as a senior manager '82 to '89 and John Sculley's account of what happened is spot on. John was (and is) a class act. Steve, despite his brilliance in some areas, acted like a child and stormed out of the room when he couldn't have his way. He tried to run the Mac Division as his own pet project while espousing the opinion that "all the good people are in the Mac Division" and the rest of you Apple employees are just "overhead"....all while he was the Chairman of a public company. Thanks, John, for telling it like it really was!

[@supagoon8]

Best ceo of the last 100 years… maybe you try acting like a child yourself … you might see similar results

[@akshaysoni8848]

@@supagoon8 John is spot on, Steve at that point was far from the great CEO he later went on to become. Steve himself admitted to these claims in his biography by Walter Isaacson.

[@vwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvw9]

@@supagoon8 Lol, Another kid who tries to act like he knows anything about Apple's history, do your research better instead of trying to look smart.

[@vwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvw9]

@YUKAJO I think that children like you shouldn't be ashamed to call themselves kids, don't lie, there's nothing wrong with being a kid.

[@perrierthomas9507]

@@vwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvw9 apple 5% market share desktop pc's lol

[@cornel999]

so refreshing to hear someone so articulate, honest, candid and humble. if only more people like this could win political elections.

[@nitraM321]

John Sculley is a lovely guy, i met him when i was 19, he visited my office, i will never forget

[@DukeLaCrosse20]

I think Scully was amazingly honest and fair in this discussion. I doubt Steve would have been this candid or honest if asked the same question.

[@Ausiedundan]

I’d have to agree with you. He still had a very bitter outlook of it when he gave the Stanford speech

[@WaybackTECH]

The question I have is would Steve have become the kind of leader he was when he came back to Apple, if he had not left / been pushed from Apple? Steve was essentially reborn during NeXT years. Not sure he would have become the man he died being, if this event did not occur.

[@jonathanstarsmoure5791]

WaybackTECH The problem here is the company and not what steve jobs could've been. Steve was all about the tech then, he had the vision. If he was allowed to do what he thought was best for personal computing, the evolution would've been faster-the progress less hindered. The board might've been right trying to milk the apple 2 for as long as they can, but it hindered progress, thus successfully killing the first mac by overpricing it and choosing to lower the spec. They basically introduced the slow iteration upgrade trend. Companies can milk on existing tech slowly every year w/c is understandable today given that research takes time and they've already invented so much it was hard to think of something new. But back then the rise in tech was fast it would've been faster for aple if steve wasn't kicked out. This is evident in todays sales trend and I'm not surprised if Steve had many troll accounts bashing apple for that, I'm really not.

[@psp420bam]

I agree

[@gorkyd7912]

Steve Jobs did not have the vision. If he had the vision why was he releasing weak, poorly-made products that were being destroyed by the competition.

[@timothygibney159]

The Mac was ahead of it's time. THe reason it failed was because people back then didn't need a computer. The people who bought them wanted IBM's which monopolized the market and had Lotus 123 (Excel like program before Excel) and WordPerfect( before MS Word ). The mac was graphical and didn't have the tools at launch and people who bought them (accountants and engineers) didn't need a mouse or why you wanted something easy to use?? The Mac started taking off later with desktop publishing and Excel, WordPerfect, and MS Word and regular secretaries and Mom's who wanted something easy to use ... years after Jobs was fired. The mac in 1984 had a workstation grade processor and HD graphics for it's time years ahead of the competition. The market was not ready. Pixar made good money too.

[@Chiqc]

i agree

[@AarmOZ84]

A man that can re-evaluate what happened and recognized where he errored and keep the ego out of the equation is a great businessman.

[@truth-12345.]

John is knowledgeable, factual and reasonable. He has a point and if that didn't happen Steve wouldn't improve.

[@jje984]

Sometimes even when the outcome is good you still look back at the person who got in your way and can't see them positively.

[@rishahuj]

Wow such terrific communication skills. Found myself absorbing virtually every word he uttered, with rapt attention.

[@ichangedmyname0001]

Because he is a Demon who did infact steal his company

[@ichangedmyname0001]

Why else would this guy come out of literally NOWHERE after apple 2 and the board just hands him the Company

[@ichangedmyname0001]

Like he said himself, his profession is business, unlike Steve Jobs

[@ichangedmyname0001]

That reminds me of aN Oldschool Runescape scam, Being someones friend ONLY TO TRICK THEM FOR THEIR VALUABLES

[@ichangedmyname0001]

Wake Up your eyes are closed because this guy is A manipulator

[@crangel2183]

What people have to understand is that Sculley was not the "bad guy", he was just acting as a reasonable executive.

[@jonathangwynne1917]

The terms “reasonable executive” and “bad guy” mean the same thing. It was “reasonable executives” who destroyed American icons like Zenith, Magnavox, Kodak, IBM, Chrysler, Sears, Radio Shack, etc. etc. etc. Sculley was a bean-counter with no wit or vision. Guys like him are the reason American companies have been going downhill for decades.

[@Ericthefilo]

@@jonathangwynne1917 Hypothetically if they did everything Steve wanted exactly the way he wanted they'd have gone bankrupt in the 80s. Gotta love all the Gen y and z cult of mac types who have to repaint the entire history of the PC in black and white.

[@Alpha1Epsilon2]

@@jonathangwynne1917 he vision was saving Apple

[@Alpha1Epsilon2]

@@jonathangwynne1917 wrong

[@davidmaglioli7048]

@@jonathangwynne1917 Ironically Apple wouldn't exist today had Steve not been fired in the 80s. Wozniak is the real brain behind Apple. Steve was just a druggie who had a few good ideas. I'll admit later in his life when he came back to Apple he indeed was a visionary, but pretending that he was the reason for Apple's success is revisionist history.

[@kefleyohannes4158]

I like this guy, he explained the situation clearly, seems honest enough. He was right, Jobs was wrong and Apple and Jobs became better for it.

[@DeepDuh]

I'm not sure who was right. A very affordable Mac one could have been a big seller if it had come early enough - basically the window was open until Windows 3, maybe even 3.1. Intuitively I'd say Scully wasn't willing to take any risks, which set up Apple for an almost bankruptcy later on.

[@Denvermorgan2000]

No Apple might have been even greater nobody will know because he stabbed Steve in the back by going to the board.

[@anhp.h.872]

Beside "being right" , luck is also an important factor. I like this man too

[@elkapitan75]

There's no right or wrong. Just what was and what is. Yoda

[@holamoco]

Ariff Wm Yoda doesn't say that.

[@elkapitan75]

I read about this from an unofficial bio of Steve Jobs and documentaries. Jobs was not fired but he was proud and decided that it's either he's totally "right" or he's totally out of the company. He made that decision himself. The board had no choice. But that's typical stance of every dreamer/entrepreneur. No right or wrong. Im glad he left because apple wouldn't have recovered and prospered prior to 2000. He needed to learn more and he did.

[@Romeosask]

Sculley is bang on. Very well said and he said all the right things. Steve was really naive in those days but learnt good things from failures. But sculley very accurate response!

[@doors2manual]

When you look at it, it was probably the best thing that could have happened to Steve Jobs. Meaning, when he came back it was on HIS terms and not the board. That would have made him more powerful and influential than if he would have stayed in the first place. Sometimes things happen for a reason and to be a visionary can be stressful for those whom simply do not get it.

[@muto-kun4501]

Sculleys case is complete understandable, he worked from expierience, from what he knew worked and made sense. He isnt a bad guy his actions are very adequate to the situations he was facing.

[@tsaodon1786]

Sculley lived to the present, and Steve lived to the future, that was the major difference.

[@falkenvir]

People like Jobs who always had his head on the future need to have people like John Scully who can keep it grounded. You don't want to have a product released to a market which is not yet ready.

[@kafkaesqued]

It's the Boards

[@ImNotADeeJay]

you must give credit to this guy for his openness about these issues, others on his shoes would just refuse to say a word about it.

[@ROCKLIKEACOBB]

Humble. Honest. I think he and Jobs would be better friends friends now.

[@666chapelofblood]

Everyone attacking him when he has a valid point, you people white-knight Steve Jobs like he's your saviour.

[@exlenisupporter457]

Yes steve is a saviour of apple. Because his the one who knows every inch of the company

[@PapiSorrels]

Ive always liked Sculley. I can see how this got out of control from everyones position. Hindsight makes things seem so SIMPLE when looking back. But getting booted AT THE TIME was good for Steve too. Most respectable thing in life is someone who can admit their shortcomings. Kudos Mr. Sculley.

[@beefcake0354]

Jobs didn't know how to run public company at the time and Sculley never shared Jobs' vision .. that's what I get from here. but well, everybody makes mistakes, don't they?

[@bluewaters3100]

Sometimes we learn the most from our biggest mistakes. And maybe none of it was a mistake. I think it all was about getting older and wiser. Good interview.

[@srinivaskari]

Great hearing him speak. Did seem based on other interviews I've read about him that Jobs and him have similar wavelengths and think alike and would have been good friends and would have worked well together.

[@snuggles03]

I like this guys honesty and integrity 👏👏

[@Applecompuser]

It's refreshing that Scully can be candid about his flaws in this area. Apple is ironically asking people to pay more than any others would ask for computers. THink mac pro etc. Candidly, I'd like one tho if I could ever afford a used one, the power may not make it worthwhile. They are so beautiful. In the end, I am a guy and I like shiny metal things.

[@Ayosubzero]

This is one of the greatest videos on business that I have watched. The insight to what happened speaks volumes.

[@tikletik]

Sculley is clearly a class act.

[@LichenAndMoss]

+tikletik check out the new unedited Steve Jobs interview on Netflix. It's only up for another week and he explains his firing in detail -- it's quite a different version than Sculley's and it's riveting.

[@Murphy82nd]

@@LichenAndMoss given the number of people that have detailed Jobs' megalomania, I'm more inclined to believe Sculley. That said this version is no doubt biased as well. That's all we have, a he said he said and who you choose to believe.

[@superviewer]

Steve was the biggest brat back then. In an interview he admitted himself that "being fired from Apple was probably one of the best things that could have happened to him." Otherwise there would have been no Pixar or NeXT/Mac OS X/iOS. But he kept loathing John Sculley for not letting him be a brat. There would probably never have been a Mac II etc. (he hated expandability) to compliment the DTP revolution, had it been up to Steve, and DTP was the Mac's only real claim to fame in the 90s when M$/Windows killed every other GUI-platform. Sculley was the man behind ARM and the handheld revolution with the Newton. The success of RIM and Palm really led to the iPhone. All because Steve did not just get his way in '85.

[@n0denz]

There would have been no Pixar without John Lasseter, just like there would have been no Apple without Steve Wozniak. Jobs was a giant mouth who took credit for things he didn't invent, and it's an absolute tragedy that people like Woz don't have the same recognition because of Jobs' smug turtlenecked head and its ugly beard are plastered over everything.

[@superharryboy]

tetrisclock Yeah, well, Woz Himself says he is thankful for Steve. Why? well I'll leave that to you. Yes, Steve may be idolized like he invented everything when he did not, but he was the drive of all those inventions.

[@midorrgo5483]

superharryboy That's right, it there isn't Steve Jobs, Woz's Apple I is just gonna stuck in his house, and Windows wouldn't be here.

[@adammurphy8563]

tetrisclock john lasseter is amazing, i am happy pixar survived steve jobs

[@JonFlorence007]

Steve was a real leader, you losers who talk about so-and-so surviving and twist Steve's logic and natural ability because it does not agree with your view's are missing the whole point. Your statements in this public space and forum attest to your ignorance of an entrepreneurial and marketing genius. I bet you don't even get Steve's Stanford's graduation address "Stay foolish-stay hungry." Yea, you just stay "foolish" and don't understand "risk" or "failure" because you are afraid what other people will think if and when you fail. Steve understood risk and failure. U-don't.

[@rc1983]

Made him even bigger! To admit your mistake publicly is what you the person look up to! You are definitely a good mentor!

[@firstname913]

This is a great video explaining Steve Jobs getting kicked out of the company. Great honesty and retelling of the story.

[@Bagnerdpak]

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and without the event of getting fired Apple of today would have been very different. Live and Learn. RIP Steve Jobs, and John Sculley obviously is tormented by the event at Apple.

[@bradmichaud4811]

not necessarily, he could have stayed but learned how to run a business plan. but it makes you thankful that he did go back, and he made apple probably the best technology company in the world

[@stubhead]

If you come into it knowing that you learn FAR more from slow, painful failures than from instant successes, this makes sense. If you don't know that, paying attention here will help you learn it.

[@ChristianSachaNovak]

Sculley did the right thing. He was hired with the knowledge that he was not a tech guy and his hand was forced on many things. Jobs at that point was not a good leader and they needed someone. Its just lucky that they got someone who respected, and continues to respect jobs opinion (which is not right, or wrong btw)

[@BambilianaR]

Sculley was somewhat hired to "educate" a bad-mannered, arrogant kid with inexistent hygienic habits. Jobs should be grateful for Sculley even from his grave.

[@BambilianaR]

Jon Florence Your opinion is welcome, your questions will remain unanswered though as you are no one to me and I have nothing to prove - to *you* and to *anyone* else like you. Cheers, man!

[@ChristianSachaNovak]

Biliana A. Rousseva no, he was hired to run apple. Thats what a CEO does.

[@jorgegil6339]

I certaintly give some credits to Sculley's honest words. He was also not prepared to run a Tech Company, as he mentioned in the response. The real problem was that both Steve and John had a different vantage points about reality, because of their huge difference skills and knowledge. Anyway and because of that huge difference, I think that it was something inevitable, they would have clashed later anyway. However at the end of the day the fault is on the side of the Leader (ALWAYS) and not on the side of the Board, because the success of evey good leader is solving problems not looking for someone to blame. Steve was indispensable for apple at least in that stage but it was not the case for John.

[@hwago123]

@@BambilianaR lol you have emotional problems

[@HELLOPATTAYA]

I remember in 1985 I was 17, and Apple macintosh was expensive and nobody wanted to buy from Apple. They were arrogant and we laugh at them and waiting they go bankrupt. They did well to call Steve back.

[@yellow13_]

HELLO PATTAYA They did well to kick him out first..

[@yellow13_]

TheBlondie Hum, they fired Steve at a point. You know that right?

[@ckmckeon]

@@yellow13_ You may want to check your history. Steve was not fired, he resigned and sold his holdings. Then he started NeXT.

[@Hans_Magnusson]

Context is important! This was very interesting. Thanks for sharing

[@KerrieRedgate]

It’s extremely difficult for visionaries to disrupt any industry when a traditional company structure has to be imposed upon them. Things were so clear to Jobs because he had an entirely different set of values to the rest of the business world. We have to remember how long ago it was that these events took place. A very different world! Visionaries, by definition, are always ahead of their times, and so should be listened to, but rarely are - it’s just too scary for most people, and certainly for shareholders. Thank the heavens Steve Jobs made it back to Apple and had the wisdom to do a win-win deal with Microsoft to save Apple from bankruptcy. The best account I’ve ever come across, on the strategies of Steve Jobs and his attitudes to running a company, is in the 2012 book by Ken Segall (creativity director for the marketing agency that was employed by Jobs for both NeXT and Apple), “Insanely Simple: The Obsession That Drives Apple’s Success”. I highly recommend it.

[@robotube7361]

The problem with all of this is I think it literally killed Steve Jobs.

[@KerrieRedgate]

@@robotube7361 Perhaps, especially with his frustrations with some of the tech people around him, though he had a good relationship with Jony Ive. But also, I don’t know how many years Steve was a fruitarian. That kind of high-fructose diet can eventually damage the pancreas, and he did seem to exhibit some of the behavioural traits of hypoglycaemia (having survived that, myself, through a particular flower essence remedy and a balanced vegan Macrobiotic diet).

[@matthewsmith-rm6qc]

Fair enough, seems a reasonable guy

[@99dynasty]

Win win: Steve grew almost immediately from the experience, Apple grew too( 12 years later )

[@wheelinthesky300]

So if the Board agrees with Steve, shifts the budget to the Macintosh, and it still does not sell, which it would not have, and Apple goes bankrupt, what NeXT? Forgive the pun.

[@Murphy82nd]

Kind of amazing how much more gracious he is about this than Steve's remembering, despite the fact that John got tossed out later as well.

[@TheEdge3003]

Great interview/answer, a very fairly balanced and honest perspective on their relationship, triumphs and learned lessons! :)

[@HailAnts]

He’s actually being kind to Jobs, because what Jobs then did was rally his supporters to try and oust Sculley from Apple. In his ‘realty distortion field’ mind it seemed doable, but when he presented his plan to the board it fell apart and he was then voted out of the company. To be far to Jobs, Sculley was wrong about a lot of technical things. Sculley believed the Newton and handwriting recognition was the next big thing, while Jobs knew it would go nowhere (voice recognition was the future). And Jobs was ultimately right about the Mac (hence the iMac literally saved Apple from bankruptcy).

[@brunowolfe9172]

So, you’re saying scullery eas the complete wrong style of exec to run Apple. I agree

[@rgl168]

Today's smartphones and tablets are evolutions from the Newton, and I use handwriting all the time on my devices. So I'd say Sculley is on the right track - just that the technology wasn't caught up during Newton's time.

[@kirishima638]

It's a huge shame that Sculley is so maligned now because of mis reporting and people's mis understanding of what happened back in 1985. Steve was running the company into the ground and trying to kill the one successful product that was keeping it afloat. It was only after Jobs himself attempted to turn the board against Scully that Scully was forced to act. And he never, ever fired Steve. He offered to give him his own research division. But Steve wanted 100% control over a public company and to him being overruled like that was ultimately seen as being fired. For revenge, Steve took several key Apple staffers with him and set up a direct competitor to Apple, which also failed miserably. Meanwhile, Scully stuck by the mac and grew the platform into a success. When Windows came along, he resisted the calls to license the mac OS and was fired because of it. Michael Spindler pushed ahead with licensing and the mac clones very nearly bankrupted the company. It was Spindler, not Scully, who oversaw the failed Newton and Copland projects and nearly drove the company into the ground. Gil Amelio gets a bad rep too but he at least had the sense to can Copland and buy NeXT and Jobs. And the very first thing Jobs did on his return was to kill off the clones.

[@takeadayofff]

And ultimately 10 years after his return they had to embrace the clones to survive the hardware crunch. At least they kept all the branding in-house to maintain their fanbase.

[@jaagruta2845]

The world has been unfair to Scully.He deserves better.Everyone makes a mistake Steve made tons

[@mayursawant2593]

Left mic was like me didn't get anything....😂

[@caviper1]

Everyone here is so righteous

[@kravenmoorehead3824]

+caviper1 I'm assuming you mean Self-righteous, unless you really did mean to compliment everyone, though somehow I doubt that.

[@caviper1]

+Kraven Moorehead Chill out, relax...

[@IllusionSector]

+caviper1 Thanks for the clarification. :-)

[@Nechole777]

caviper1 Steve Jobs was a horrible person. End of story.

[@icreate351]

Indeed Everyone Is So Righteous

[@Corsa15DT]

I don't understand, what licensing were discussed about the Mac 1?

[@Nubyrc]

I lived this at the time. The Mac was over priced. The Commodore 64 was a fraction of the Mac price and you plugged it into a TV. Apple was greedy and not doing what said it was going to do, and that was build HOME computers.

[@t100base]

somethings never change

[@harryhirsch8527]

like you people know anything about it....

[@ilovesuisse1]

Nubyrc Apple is still overpriced now, they get their stuff made in China but charge the consumer US prices.

[@raginald7mars408]

... As a German Biologist - I was PostDoc at Cornell University - reading about the Lifestyle of Sculley and his unimaginable hard tough work. Impressive. I still see the moment in 1984 when the first Macintosh was installed at Cornell - Mind boggling - then the first LISA in the lab. It was clear - this is a new era. For Price Reasons we jumped to PC Clones which were easy to modify and adapt. The most exciting era of my Life - so much developed so quickly- all new... Today - we HAVE all that magic technology - and cannot create anything exciting anymore. And it may be the End time of humans...

[@johnnycashftw]

Sculley made sense, but also, you can tell he rehearsed his answer.

[@jshepard152]

Jimmy He's had thirty years to think about it.

[@miroslavmilan]

J Shepard | Exactly!

[@6789uiop]

Not like he never thought it over ffs...

[@oldhauntedbat424]

John Sculley: "You're gonna end me, aren't you?" Steve Jobs: "You're being ridiculous. I'm gonna sit center court and watch you do it yourself."

[@MrWaterbugdesign]

I was a software engineer at Apple when the Mac wasn't licenced. I thought it was a terrible mistake, still do. Apple could have owned the entire desktop & laptop market. We should have made an OS for the PC too. But so many people there could only see Mac. But no matter how good the Mac was the market for that type of computer is limited.

[@SavageGerbil]

Hard to become an industry standard if you're proprietary, and your competition isn't

[@mrmatias2618]

Lectures studied. Thanks for posting greeting from Angola.

[@hansvetter8653]

In my view John Sculley has nothing to regrett! It was Steve Jobs himself who admitted that his departure from Apple Inc. was a bitter but needed "medicine" ... and man ... ! ... what an insanely great come back for Steve Jobs to Apple Inc. ... starting such a great wave of innovations ... iMac, iPod, MacBook-Air, iPhone, iPad ... so yeah ... Steve Jobs reinvented himself during his absense from Apple Inc. ... creating a second great endavor called computer animations ... of course again through another startup company ... Pixar ...

[@alistairmcelwee7467]

Wow, Sculley gave great answers. Back when Jobs left Apple, we got so many models of barely differentiated Mac computers. When Jobs returned, this changed. But, then Jobs controlled the narrative of what had gone down when he left Apple, and Sculley's reputation was loudly trashed by he adoring fan boys & media. However, the product lineup was much more sensible when Jobs returned.

[@edithbannerman4]

@Hello there, how are you doing this blessed day?

[@felicity4711]

Dropping the price point on the Macintosh would have helped. The high price of Apple products was their only real downside at the time. Many of us would have liked to have bought Macintoshes but the price was just too high. I bought a used Macintosh instead. The later introduction of the lower-priced Macintosh Classic and Macintosh LC was a good idea.

[@werone7268]

I'm not a hundred percent sure of this yet but I think the US is the only country in the world that turns successful entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs into legends and then makes movies about him.

[@rms8887]

You mean like Nikola Tesla? If you don't think that man is a legend, then you need to do some more research.....Steve Jobs led the evolution of modern computing technology, he deserves to be remembered. Recognizing huge accomplishments such as this also helps to inspire others' to make their mark on mankind.

[@rms8887]

Sure. But my claim is not that he should be considered a legendary businessman. He should, however, be considered a a creative genius with no comparable rival. For that reason alone, everyone on this planet who strives to create something and be successful at it should make him the target. It is inspirational and motivational to chase a legend such as him. I'm sure many people can attribute some of their success to the inspiration they received upon hearing his story.

[@jefffoggerty9342]

bigj2637 Yeah, the genius Tesla. He also became the first electro-sensitive person thanks to all the alternating current (AC)

[@snipey06]

Well, it sort of made him out to be a D-bag, so... realistic.

[@juanromero9815]

Could you make a point??? Yes, we make, we make people who make worthwhile things into legends. I'm really not able to see your point.

[@GoodnessPC]

I like this guy's attitude.. he has the greatness to accept the truth without any ego at his age and achievements.. God bless him.. guess, as Steve Jobs himself says in Stanford speech, it was destined to be that way in order to make it big..

[@25mL]

Bad medicine can be good medicine. Steve needed that wake-up call. Everything unfolded exactly as it was meant to.

[@PearComputingDevices]

I agree once you look at it from his perspective. John wasnt a creator. Steve was. John knew how to run a company. Steve knew how to shape a company. To evolve. If your the boss thats looking to maximize profits to the shareholders in all fairness had a very valid point. One I totally agreed with was the board. Steve Jobs was ahead of the boards mindset. They had no interest in researching after Lisa failed. Thus evolving was too forward for them and it shows.

[@irishguy200007]

Fizzy water never needs to evolve but computers and people do.

[@doozowings4672]

He absolutely nailed it , it was the boards fault 110% .... John is a GREAT thinker , him and Steve was gold ...

[@pentiuman]

Call me a Windows fanboy, but... I never like Steve Jobs, because I got the impression that (at least in the beginning), all he cared about was money, that, like Microsoft, he readily ripped off ideas from others, and I felt he did his close partners and employees very wrong, several times. I also think he had more product and idea failures than winners. Finally, I think the real genius of Apple - the inventor - was Steve Wozniak!

[@harryhirsch8527]

Don Fisher...dont play it like you know anything about it

[@McMurchie]

Haha look at all the Jobs fanboys offloading abuse at this guy. Steve Jobs was not unique, ripped off a lot of stuff and was not the messiah.

[@bobalobalie]

Adam -亚当- Yeah I know RIGHT. I hate fanboys. Whether they are fanboys of Apple or Windows. Both are pretty stupid and most act like they are 5 year olds. I use Apple's phone, tablet, and computers. I also use other companies computers with Windows and Linux. As well as a DIY computer with Windows and Linux installed. I prefer OSX and IOS for my daily life as an Astronomer(PhD with Lab) and it suits me. But you won't see me defending Steve Jobs like he is some sort of saint who could never be wrong. Mr. Sculley did exactly what he should have as a CEO back then. Mr. Job's immaturity as a businessman and in general was what led to his ultimate demise. You can't really "change the world" when you are losing money, sending your company into insolvency, and chasing away investors. Those fanboys probably will never comprehend the fact that if Mr. Jobs was let out to do as he wished back then. Apple would have been but a footnote in history and Mr. Jobs would have sent the company into Bankruptcy. It was best for Apple to let him go then. They would have been bought out by IBM in the 80s and be non-existent if not. As well, Apple wouldn't be where they are now without bringing Mr. Jobs back. But, the Jobs of the 80s and the Jobs of the late 90s and 2000s are different people. One was an immature man the other was a mature successful businessman.

[@astroboy2345]

Adam -亚当- If you think you know enough about technology and history of technology development in the Silicon Valley. Name things that you thought Apple ripped off. I'll counter with historical facts why they were not.

[@McMurchie]

***** historical facts - ha you mean your apple fueled propaganda. No thanks don't want to get into a troll war over that one.

[@TheAjohnson99]

+Astroboy2345 The GUI was stolen from XEROX Jobs said it multiple times.

[@astroboy2345]

Come on ... Jobs didn't say that. The actual event is this. In 1979, Xerox gave Apple $1M investment (for 100,000 shares of Apple stock at $10/share) and told Jobs to do something with the GUI technology; Xerox didn't think the GUI had a future. Seeing this, many of Xerox GUI team left and joined Apple to work on the GUI for the Apple Lisa. That is the origin of Apple's GUI project.

[@nochnfux]

It seems to me that Steve Jobs failed to convince the board with arguments. He certainly had a very good sense of what was to be done. However the board can't just depend on the sense of the founder of the company. The board is responsible for the decisions it supports - in view of the shareholders. While this is about an extremely successful entrepreneur, and one might say it had been a mistake to let Jobs go, there are lots of businesses that failed because the figures have been neglected. Nonetheless this episode has probably just made Steve Jobs stronger and better.

[@mbayatab4326]

The difference between the two was that Sculley was just an executive whereas Jobs was a great product developer. If Sculley as executive doesn’t see that long-term success of the company is in developing great products, then he should have been out, not Jobs.

[@1alvar]

so steve jobs got fired from his own company ? have you seen when Steve jobs addresses to the public ? he was very smart and knew how to explain everything with detail, we owe him a lot because he developed a technology way far beyond his time,

[@manticore4952]

His point is Steve was good at selling to people but was poor at the back end of business at the time.

[@adnanshamsi4894]

It was a difference in Vision. Sculley believed in keeping the company alive by working on the supposedly stable and profitable old product while Steve believed in building the future of the company by working on new risky and potentially profitable products.

[@herseem]

Staying alive is the no.1 priority though, and I agree with John Sculley. Steve Jobs seemed to believe that people would put up with slow performance because of the beautiful features, and the market seemed to be saying, "No, they won't". Trying to work on a slow computer when you've got a deadline is a frustrating and stressful nightmare.

[@davidk7575]

Sculley's been demonized but Jobs was out of control back in those days and bad for the company....

[@DH1986]

+David K I agree. The Mac should have been kept on the back burner another year (maybe 2). Steve's projects bled millions and he had a lot to learn.

[@MostafaAhmedAhmed81]

Just wonderful answer.

[@nikosv8166]

I think the analysis he gives is EXACTLY the reason why Elon Musk has to be very careful about whom he appoints as chairman in the SEC deal...

[@pic101]

What would Steve have said, in response to this?

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

The thing with Jobs was that he was so caught up in his vision that he couldn't see what was real. When I first saw the Mac's I was like "How is it going to do all that stuff?" The truth of the matter is that these were really terrible little machines. Their screen was to small. They had no expansion slots. They over heated because Steve didn't like fans. They were trying to do to much with technology that wasn't there yet. There was hardly any software for it. If it wasn't for Microsoft - there would have been almost none. The cost of a machine that could do all they were trying to do - (like the Xerox Star) was completely beyond the reach of the average consumer. But - Steve was all caught up in his vision and wouldn't let it go. He could be really stupid that way. Wozniak wanted to do more with the Apple II line - which was what was making all the money for Apple but Steve wanted to take money from it and put it into the Mac's - which just were not good systems when they came out. He was stupid so he got fired. The first Mac I ever considered buying - was the Mac II - which was a much better computer than the old Shoe Box Mac's - but - it still cost to much. Apple was pricing it's units based on the cost of an IBM PC but - their real competition - were the IBM _CLONES_ . Buying an IBM Clone was always going to get me more Bang For My Buck - so that is what I always did - and - that is what almost everybody else did too. .

[@iDalisMediaTV]

Great response he gave some clarity to what happened that is was a lot more complex than it appeared .

[@GreenEnvy.]

Inventing a product and running a company that sells the product involves 2 different types of thinking. Steve was strong in one and weak (at the time) in the other.

[@jooplin]

John Scully played the Game while Steve Jobs wanted to change it.

[@choohongpeng2272]

Why would you say it is stealing? The person that invented the wheel never put a layer of rubber beneath it, and whoever put a layer of rubber and later pump air into it consider stealing? Stealing is when you take the wheel and call it your own.

[@tompeterson7067]

I gotta say I disagree with the idea of the mac failing. Maybe in the market place it financial did. Maybe it was being called a toy but the people who were saying that were used to computing being about typing in commands and code. So something that acted like a video game probably couldn't be taken seriously by them because expected computing to be serious difficult business that you had to be pretty smart to use. The fact of the matter is the mac was a success in the truest sense. It was revolutionary for the time changed how people used computers. It took it from typing commands and code to point and click. So of course it couldn't be taken seriously as a computer, any child could use it. But that was the beauty of the GUI OS of the mac. It made the personal computer even easier to use and really saved the computer revolution. Now literally anyone could use a computer. The simplification of use is what the mac a success because it brought the PC to absolutely everyone.

[@Dave-lr2wo]

You "gotta disagree"? Ok. Who are you? Do you run one of the biggest brands on earth?

[@bluewaters3100]

The first computer I used was an apple back in 1984. I thought it was wonderful. I bought a Sony Viao for my frst computer..hated it. Returned it and bought the all in onesage colored iMac G3. I so loved that thing and used it even when I bought the newer 2005 iMac Then I bought a 2008 macbook pro. Then a 2012 ..spilled a cup of coffee on the keyboard so bought a 2015 macbook pro which I am typing on right now. People forget how much cheaper it is now to buy a computer. I gave my 2008 MacBook to my sister who uses it for you tube videos mostly. It was used by 4 people..alot and I have never had to get it worked on. Love my Macs!

[@Kanonymous-gj9pr]

He(John Scully) is great leader and mentor. He turned a reckless Steve jobs into a visionary leader. And iThank you John Scully for creating a visionary leader who changed our lives.

[@billnegron1057]

Bullshit!

[@guyonearth]

Apple in the mid 90's had a badly outdated OS that Windows 95 blew out of the water, running on overpriced, non-competitive hardware. They failed utterly to develop a competitive OS, one of the biggest and most poorly understood failures in the modern era of computing. Jobs was brought back because he ran NEXT, another innovative but failing company. Apple paid a massive price for it but got the core and basic interface for OSX. Jobs got to be boss again. Be Inc., run by another ex-Apple employee, Jean-Louis Gassée, and who had been negotiating with Apple for a buyout in return for the excellent BeOs operating system, went bankrupt and is mostly forgotten.

[@realone2445]

damn, sculley is real

[@dkillalegend]

I learned quite a handful from this. It is okay to take a dream I had, throw it out there - you know, light it up like a spark, and live it for everything it's worth. But overtime, multiple communities and lots of people I meet can take my dream and turn it into an empire! When that happens, I have to accept the fact that the dream isn't mine anymore. It doesn't belong to me anymore, it belongs to the people. And that's fine by me because at that rate, I can live a happy retirement with no one begging me to come back and I can let the people carry on what was once my dream, and I'd leave it at that. Maybe this is the kind of lesson John Sculley wanted to teach Steve Jobs.

[@amajiwa]

i stopped where he blamed the board.

[@irishguy200007]

It was the purple spot on the ground sir that was at fault.

[@erlingaamodt1964]

Great response indeed!

[@KunalBajpaiKanpur]

May be firing Steve Jobs at that time was the best thing that happened to Apple.

[@rosskstar]

Interesting to hear both sides. Together they did great things. Sounds like Jobs let his emotions rule while still in a funk over the failures. I dare say if it wasn't for their falling out, Jobs wouldn't have grown like he did into the man he did. In the end, he was molded into the man who would truly change the world.

[@camielkotte]

He did not get fired. The board took him off the program and division. He himself left the company. That is literally what this guy is saying. Yet almost every comment here is about the good thing he got fired so he could become the man he became to be. Every one is so biased by their own truth's.... That is so disappointing.

[@chaitanyakashiv9558]

Feeling sad for him. He was so honest all the time and how badly media painted his picture. Everyone who put him in bad light, owes him an apology.

[@rhymereason3449]

Just think... if the board had gone along with Jobs instead of Skulley, and Skulley's position was right, and Apple went bankrupt, there might not be the Iphone or Ipads. Would someone else have created them? Who knows, but even if they did, they probably wouldn't be in the same form they are today.

[@TheSimonScowl]

He was fired because there is an inherent 'rift' between management and creativity, between the 'Yang' and the 'Yin', and between the male and the female. Creativity is 'Yin' (feminine, like birthing/nurturing a child) and 'craft'/manufacturing is 'Yang' (masculine, toiling with one's hands).

[@502Bentley]

Steve Jobs was a hell of a salesman, that's what he shined at.

[@chopsueykungfu]

Salesmen do not drive technology. They don't have decision making responsibilities. And they certainly don't inspire people to want to change the world so they can sell gizmos. So think of a better term. Maybe CEO?

[@502Bentley]

Lmao, just stop.

[@daveforz]

You can see why Jobs recruited him in the first place. Very well spoken.

[@futuremtt]

when I first saw the mac i actually really wanted one but it was just too dam expensive. no one could afford it. if only they wouldve lowered the price. but then instead apple just stopped making great products.

[@Mineav]

The Macintosh was the worst mistake that Apple made. That entire computer line was a mistake, and the Woz even says so. Jobs was a fool. The Mac WAS Jobs' fault, no matter what Sculley says. He's just being kind, but also being revisionist and dishonest. He got a little more clever with marketing later in his life, but he was never a tenth of the genius that people give him credit for.

[@RetroHoo]

Steve didn't get fired, he left

[@RetroHoo]

In the book by Walter Isaacson "Steve Jobs" (2011), it was mentioned that he left (which generally I find a good source of information as it was authorized). Also Steve Wozniak mentioned it in Iwoz. I can't judge the silly semantics and how much it really wasn't a choice or how much it really wasn't a choice for him personally. However, there's a difference between having little choice but to leave and being fired.

[@robotube7361]

There are many should haves would haves here in this story. Reality is that steve jobs at that time would have ran the company to the ground. That would have happened. The company wasnt his. He was just a shareholder and had to answer to other shareholders. The company eventually did go into dire straits but people need to give credit to Scully. He kept it going for much more than the company should have gone at that time. The Macintosh was really indeed seen as a toy and not as a serious machine. in 1980s people didnt see computers like they see them now or in 1990s. Computers were not common things, accessories or even fashion and status statements. They were seen as tools that only few knew how to operate. The GUI was not right for the 1980s. It was too soon. there was no WWW. The idea of a PC was still in its infancy and a PC was a luxury only the rich could afford back then. The Macintosh wasnt gonna sell. It was a gimmick, nobody that used computers back then saw it as valuable and truth be told it wasnt. Computer users back that could get much better hardware for their money and the GUI the macintosh was using was simply not enough. People didnt give 2 shits about fonts in the 1980s. With the introduction of the WWW and the lower prices of hardware in the 90s, computers became widely accessable and this was the time when ordinary people started having PCs and this was the time when the people started to get the desire for their computers to be unique and to stand up from the rest and not be these beige boxes that crunched numbers only. Steve Jobs returned at the right time at apple and his vision of computers being gadgets that oozed style and expressed how cool you were was actually in the zeitgeist. You can say Steve Jobs was ahead of his time but the truth is he would have destroyed Apple by pushing his vision in times when it was simply not acceptable.

[@heathsmog]

"Drop the pric e and double the marketing budget"

[@wagnerfernandes1343]

They should had listen Steve and launch with the low price, not changing it after, because that was Steve's plan in the first place. But at that point, the ship has sale and like he said, there was not made any diference.

[@alvshill]

After watching Apple become the most successful, innovative and iconic tech company of our time on Jobs return, John Sculley must have been living a nightmare, as most of the accounts of his time at Apple paint him like the man who shot Bambi. It will not have been easy to work with the pre-departure version of Steve Jobs. Sculley seems an honest man, and I hope he is at peace with it all.

[@raajunnikrishnan1950]

What else would this guy would say given the success of Jobs

[@brianwisner7685]

People that worked for Steve said he often screamed at and belittled employees. Maybe getting fired and being forced to start over set the stage for his triumphant return to Apple in 1997...

[@sleepycobra9152]

If Steve was alive we would have invisible iPhone by now

[@jsoncoding1025]

I have one

[@HeavyMetalPianoChnl]

@Blob B it would cost $2500 too

[@thealaskan1635]

If Steve Jobs were alive, no one would be bitching about the lousy quality of the computers Apple makes today.

[@thegreat5876]

Just wait for some more years its gonna come yeah!.. Just wait for some time at least 6-7 years.

[@TheLordMyRock]

This is what happens to companies that make decisions based on more short term gains.

[@livesimplyandhumbly]

When bean counters and marketing people run tech companies it is bound to be doomed.

[@0x0michael]

when visionaries and dreamers run it alone it's also bound to be doomed.

[@weizheng673]

John Sculley is a great man and ceo. Steve Jobs is an exceptional visionary and genius. They have management styles difference. At that time, Apple was still in the start-up at the cusp of transformation to a large company. It was a hard process. John understood Steve Jobs so well. I truly respect his perspective and look back.