Former MLM Leaders Share Why They Left it All.

We're digging deeper into the world of MLMs (Multi-Level Marketing). In this interview, I talk with two former MLM leaders, Kathy and Noble Gibbens, who are absolutely delightful. They were in a well-known MLM for over 20 years and were very successful. So why'd they leave it all?
This is a follow-up to my initial MLM video. With as long as this interview was, there was till a LOT more to cover. Both Kathy and Noble have followed up on more thoughts about their experience in their podcast. You can find the info for that below.
This will be my final video on this topic. What a ride.
Social Media Contacts for Kathy and Noble Gibbens:
Kathy:
www.filteritthroughabraincell.com
Episode 237: The 15 Characteristics of an emotionally unhealthy environment: www.filteritthroughabraincell...
IG: @filteritthroughabraincell
Noble:
www.eqgangster.com
Episode 453: The 15 Qualities of a Toxic Environment: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
IG: @thenoblegibbens
👀WATCH👀:
●My Big Video about MLMs: The Controversial World of MLMs... and What Nobody is Talking About: • The Controversial Worl...
●My video about Good Fruit: • How do we discern a fa...
📚RESOURCES📚:
www.amazon.com/shop/melissado...
🤗DONATE🤗:
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paypal.me/MelissaDougherty77
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My Website: www.melissadougherty.co/
💡SEMINARY💡:
Looking for a solid theological education? Look at Southern Evangelical Seminary: ses.edu/melissa/

[@xoLia555]

This sounds exactly like the team i was apart of word for word! So scary. I literally walked away on Tuesday. I feel so light and happy with my decision. Thank you Jesus!

[@TheGr8erPurpose]

Same here! Christ actually encountered me at one of their massive conferences, the Sunday service before the rest of the conferences - I had rejected going to the year /conferences prior. I had been running from Him my entire life but He hunted me down and knew I was in so deep and needed His intervention. I accepted and surrendered to Him in the heart of Vegas (of all places) right smack dab in the crowd. For just that moment it felt like a lifetime, like it was just me and this LIGHT, this sweet sweet and bright light I have seen since a child, it was so clear that Christ pointed to the crowds around me and specifically said, "I will use you to bring the crowds (the multitudes) back to me, but it is not here, leave this place as soon as possible. DEPART from all of this, trust in ME and not man". And even before that I can see the work that the Holy Spirit was doing in me - opening my eyes to the Scriptures I was forced to here at these conferences for some reason they came alive to me more than ever and invoked me to search on my own, my spiritual eyes and ears was opening and by His grace He let me see it all for what it was, by it's fruit. I can say for certain I never was the same after that encounter and I give all the praises to Christ The Most High

[@MsJenniferTerry]

Good for you! I wish you all the best in this next chapter. ❤️

[@ruthvansandt9713]

Same. I was in for 3 months in 2019… it’s to exact not to be the same lol

[@deannabanana9344]

The microphone not being on doesn’t seem to be an issue. Sounds good to me!

[@wrldvw1836]

These MLM stories always remind me of Scientology and other cults

[@condesabeatriz9303]

💯

[@fnjesusfreak]

Ultimately, they all work the same...

[@EmunahFL]

Exactly. They want you to pay them to worship them... Eat, sleep and breathe them.

[@Amanda.Marie40]

MLMs started by Mormons…..all these companies

[@tirzah-marielewis3447]

“Try is a lie” is the phrase that woke me up from my MLM. I was trying so hard and that just dismissed all my effort. I was done.

[@Josh-yr7gd]

Everything they said resonates. I was in Amway for 4 years, but left 5 years ago. They’re right about losing yourself. Every waking moment of every single day, everywhere I went and everyone I spoke to was directed towards being “intentional” for the business. I was always “ON”. Felt like I never clocked out. When I left, a huge burden lifted. I could finally be fully present and enjoy the moment and the conversations without having an agenda and thinking about the next thing. I’m so glad to have my mind back!

[@honeysuckle9830]

Whattt I was also in Amway (wwdb) for 4 years and left 5 years ago…and everything you mentioned I felt the exact same way!

[@MsJeanie2]

Yup!! Amway as well. Made it sound Christian. Are they still in business? It’s been about 20 years. All about making money living a dream.

[@Josh-yr7gd]

@@MsJeanie2 Sadly, Amway is still around.

[@mable552]

So, the tactics used like love bombing, etc seems very similar to how hyper charismatic seeker friendly churches use..wow that was an eye opener.

[@condesabeatriz9303]

Indeed!

[@susanboccia6919]

Wow! Is right! On target!

[@manestage5403]

💯 I mean right to the T!

[@helloharborhouse]

Yep!!!

[@meganwraymusic]

Great interview. I would push back on the last bit about whether being in an MLM can be done in an ethical way though. While there is a wide range of various products and companies, the entire definition of an MLM and the reason they operate the way they do is because people build teams on the backs of their down line. No one is staying in an MLM because they are making money on selling the products to regular consumers. This of course doesn’t throw blame entirely on people who are in MLM’s; as stated in the interview most people don’t know they are manipulating others into the business. However, the structure is the issue. Any time a company incentivizes people to recruit, you are incentivizing people at the bottom being taken advantage of.

[@joyfuljaj]

Exactly. Also, that she said she will still buy products from the company they left? There are some MLM products that I have liked but once I learned about how MLMs work, I'm finding similar products elsewhere (usually for less money).

[@TheHillrat4wd]

Although I understand why you say what you do and I can concur that happens with a lot of companies I've been with the company called Amsoil for 24 years we have a MLM business model but it is nothing like the ones I'm listening about today recruitment of dealers and preferred customers are part of our MLM structure but in no way are we pressured to sign up people recruit people and all the extreme things that's being said here we also have the ability to go into a existing business and register that as an account they buy directly from Amsoil Amsoil pays us the commission the same with industrial accounts so I say that to say I make the vast majority of my commission from direct sales of product from a business purchasing with a wholesale account from Amsoil and Amsoil pays me Commission so I'm not pressuring people and Leaning On The Backs of my downline.

[@reconciledHRT]

1 minute in and I can definitely see how these two were soo successful. I donno what they're selling but I'm already ready to buy it😂😅

[@stephanieveenstra]

😂

[@noelferrervv5115]

Lol

[@teeseedixon5306]

😂 same! 😅😅

[@angelrosee73]

That’s funny, because 3 minutes in and I’m ready to click off the video - sounds so desperate that I’m OUT

[@biggerock]

Really? I didn't pick up on that at all.

[@shellieszott9091]

The use of the word "detox" by Noble struck me. I've been trying to find a word for what I went through after leaving 15 years of hyper-charismatic churches. That's exactly what it feels like.

[@kaydpil]

I went through the same after leaving ours in 2016. Pray, pray, pray. The Holy Spirit will lead you to truth. I’m on the other side now and finally have a peace I’ve never had in my life!

[@loreanrivera9895]

what is a hyper charismatic church?

[@susanboccia6919]

@@loreanrivera9895some churches are super friendly which is ok. I like the word they used ‘love bombing’. The church I used to go to, it was all about you and making you happy. The gospel was not incorrect but not on target either. We don’t go to church for us but to learn about and community worship of our Lord and Savior Jesus🙌🏼

[@Josh-yr7gd]

After I left Amway, I felt like I had ptsd. Those mentorship and training programs can really mess with your mind.

[@janelleg597]

❤❤❤❤❤ peace to you, sister

[@Markkos1992]

8:50 Emotional Scooby Snacks 🤣🤣

[@lindseyh5735]

Nice to see you 😎

[@michaeljguy]

This whole interview honestly reminds me of a situation that recently happened to me. One of the songs I was asked to sing for the worship team had... interesting lyrics. I asked my friend who was one of the leaders to change the song, stating that the song had Word Of Faith, declaraion-type lyrics. I assumed maybe they just didn't see it the way I did, and I thought they were theologically sound. One month later, I am no longer on the team, talking to the worship leaders has gone nowhere, and I was denied speaking to the elders on this issue. Do not question, do not be negative, do not think critically... They're right. It can happen in a church.

[@katierucker2870]

That must’ve been frustrating as heck. It happens in Bible study groups, too. Like you get shunned for asking questions.

[@michaeljguy]

@@katierucker2870 it was saddening more than anything. I went to that church since high school and thought the leaders were solid. I guess that's one way to figure out the truth of things, is to ask questions and see how people react.

[@blessings007]

Yes, they are right it most certainly does happen in churches too. It happened to me as I asked too many questions and apparently the wrong questions.

[@blessings007]

@@katierucker2870not well lead Bible studies. BSF encourages questions.

[@KlingonPrincess]

You might be edified reading "Worship Matters." My worship team read through it as our "small group" study.

[@dawnday5843]

I was part of several MLM's. Mainly because I liked the product and thought, I might as well make money and get the discount. Even though I wasn't making money, more like losing it. It was difficult to walk away. You have a sense of defeat and failure. Once I finally walked, I felt a huge relief and will not fall victim to one again.

[@Agg1E91]

I can relate, but from a time-share perspective. It's like what they say about owning a boat. The only two days you're happy is when you buy it and when you sell it.

[@JRSupp]

Congratulations on leaving! They're designed to be hard to walk away from. I'm glad you were able to.

[@carynmason3421]

Thank you for sharing. I'm so glad you're out and at peace.

[@visionvixxen]

Yes humanbias to keep going the path and not admit to the wrong direction…. But this only gets you worse of the same. I’m glad you had doscernment

[@visionvixxen]

People who’ve done this I don’t respect and I am never friends with. I don’t mean this judge mentally-95 just there are characteristics of those who do this or keep falling for it- that are just not congruent with who I am.

[@williamkeep6099]

I want to add that after 25+ years examining this industry, this interview shares a number of important issues in the MLM experience.

[@carlaferrier2652]

This really clarified what I experienced in past MLM's and even in some life insurance organizations. I never felt comfortable but would try to embrace it until i just gave up because it just wasn't me. Now I know why, I'm not a great manipulator. I was never comfortable trying to convince people to buy just to get a sale or convince people to join just to say I got a recruit. Thanks for confirming, in my spirit, what I was feeling. Blessings to all.

[@101runaways]

Life insurance....reminds me of World Financial Group if you have heard of them before.

[@inezaultman1850]

Life insurance, like AL Williams / Primerica are definitely MLM.

[@101runaways]

@@inezaultman1850 Or one similar to Primerica is World Financial Group.

[@gerardmarin8614]

Good interview. And I understand that the focus is not to call out, accuse or point fingers here. But the fact that even after getting out of it you can still down play it this much, to the point of making it seem like it's just an ethics and morals issue is very telling. The fact is that an MLM is just a pyramid scheme that knows the law and how to skirt it. So there is no justification for it's existence in any form, no matter how many good lessons you think you can take away from being in one, because it's most basic goal is to take advantage of it's "independent distributors" by making them and their "down line" the product.

[@jenniferlawrence9598]

The thing that I was hoping I would hear in your MLM video, and that is particularly addressed by this couple (who were “in” the MLM I thought I was “in”--explanation in a reply below for those interested) is that when you join an MLM with other Christians, you get the kind of treatment that we ought to be giving each other all the time without the expectation that it’ll result in a bump to our “business”. The focused attention, and what we’re calling “love bombing” is simply how we ought to be treating others anyway but never do, and when hurting, lonely people finally get that, from a dynamic, charismatic couple like these lovely people, it’s really hard to walk away from. BUT THE DANGER is that when the business relationship does fall apart, and it always does, your “upline” drops you. Yes, it damages friendships that were already in place before you joined, but more importantly it damages the gospel. How does a new Christian, or one who isn’t really secure in their faith, reconcile that this person that claimed to be a Christian, that seemed to like me so much, and gave me so much attention, a person I thought I was growing a real relationship with, now never talks to me because we both left the “business”. How is that Christian love? If they were lying about caring about me, are they lying about the gospel? What we should keep is the instinct to ask about people’s lives, to care about their answers, to follow up with them regularly, to reach out to hurting people, but to do it for the sake of Christ rather than “building a business".

[@jenniferlawrence9598]

I’m so glad these were the people you interviewed. I didn’t know them before, but I knew within 45 seconds they were from the same MLM I was “in”. I say that because since about the 70s, people who thought they were “in” that MLM weren’t actually. That was a shell or cloak that a particular distributor used to hide his enormous business, which was actually selling books, tapes, and conventions/events to that MLM’s distributors (which is technically a pyramid scheme, whereas the MLM they thought they were “in” wasn’t technically a pyramid scheme). This is what they're talking about "the company versus the training team".

[@Window4503]

Very good point. In fact, doing those things is ironically storing treasures in heaven and sharing Christ’s riches with others. So it’s still wealth-related in a way, just not in a visible worldly way.

[@shanewolff9525]

@@jenniferlawrence9598 sounds like Amway am I correct?

[@Josh-yr7gd]

I was in Amway but maybe a different training program than them.

[@inezaultman1850]

Oh, Honey. All of that. I am now instantly suspicious of people who need the label of faith to validate their business. Just, please, let the way you do business validate your faith. This is Biblical!

[@courtenaystevens4075]

I'm in a MLM and discovering how the training and recruiting side of the business is causing many to worship idols without noticing. 1 idol is one of self idolatry, being one own God to manifest their world. 2, the idolatry of money, the leaders states that you are not money driven enough. 3, the idolatry of people, needing the recognition and praise of other and yes idolatry to other successful people.

[@blessings007]

Getting out of an MLM now. Learning a lot and grateful for this interview and your previous deep dive video. Thanks Melissa. Learning a lot about “new thought” movement.

[@mrjbrownell]

Health, wealth and prosperity gospel, this is what MLM's are, under the guise of a business. (Amway) In Christ Alone, 🌾📖🙏

[@visionvixxen]

My Christian friend got me into something like this but it was a self help course which required you get them converts and recruits in order to receive what you already paid them for.

[@MsJeanie2]

🙋🏾‍♀️. I remembered some prosperity preachers being there. Like sermons. 🤦🏾‍♀️. It was manipulative and we just didn’t feel right there.

[@theauthormindset]

I just recently learned a valuable lesson from God. EVERYTHING IS HIS! Everything. And we should be so humble and grateful for these gifts of His. Your KZbin channel is His. Your subscribers are His. The ability to make videos is because of Him. The clothes you were wearing in the oxygen you are breathing is a gift from Him. The cars that you drive the kids that you have and the husband that you have are His. Even the mugs you are selling are His. Everything belongs to Him. And every day we should give him thanks and praise because of it.

[@lifewheredotart]

❤❤❤❤Truth!

[@eaparkes]

An hour and a half in and I can say with some confidence (I was in the same mlm, Washington State) that some of the people the lady needed to apologize to were hurt to an extreme extent. Money was lost, marriages were strained and even broken, parent/child relationships were not properly created. If nearly all those she spoke to were gracious, she just hasn't found all the ones they destroyed yet. The victims won't come forward because they are too damaged. I think the couple want to come clean but they might have a way to go still. I won't quote the level I think they achieved based on their story. If they did, they definitely knew much more about where the money came from than they let on. I congratulate them on trying to help new people not get into the business and wish them well in their restoration efforts.

[@Lynnology]

If they’re still buying the products they’re still supporting the MLM and talking out of both sides of their mouths.

[@fbrown1543]

One thing I find still missing is the root - the love of money is the root of all evil. All involved still want and love money no matter the reason why they want to use the money.

[@nowyouknowrealestate5703]

Also, control and manipulation was done through lies. I am so adverse to MLMs and sales in general because I have no respect for those who compromise and I personally never compromise for one penny.

[@visionvixxen]

And this is what these groups prey upon- love and worship of money…. No education stop , quick gains. Side hustle, homes and cruises and a pie in the Sony ad by.

[@trishash79]

@ 39:15 I would not take advice off the bathroom wall @ Buc-ee's because there IS... no advice on the bathroom walls @ Buc-ee's. It's spotlessly cleaned & well maintained! 😆

[@ALRinaldi]

You do pay for it with the cost of the brisket sandwich and walking past the jerky wall though! 🤣

[@trishash79]

@@ALRinaldi Happily!

[@rebeccamatteson9643]

I was thinking the same 😂

[@debbiefreeman9481]

That’s what I thought. Water closets I think they’re called in the UK. Lol

[@leaterry1504]

Years ago I tried 3 MLMs, put money into getting started, didn't get many sales. Left worse than when I started. Said never again. Never did try again. Bad experience and hated being pressured!

[@vanessapowell3719]

My husband and I joined a couple of MLMs early in our marriage, including Amway, and it was a non-stop, brain washing philosophy. When we tried to recruit my brother he told us that he had determined to never sale anything but Jesus and that really stuck with me. If I am going to offer someone friendship I want it to be genuine, not a marketing ploy, and I want to be telling them about Jesus, not a MLM.

[@tronsgard]

Amen…. Your brothers words were true. We are all commissioned ♥️

[@deannacoffin4858]

Wow, about what your brother said. My dad was in MLMs & I said the same thing - “I only want to ‘sell’ the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ!” 🙏

[@robyndelgadohhp]

Quit selling Jesus too.

[@pjsepulved]

I worked as a correctional deputy in a large city jail for 25 years. The MLM structure/characteristics described sounds very similar to the prison gangs. The prison gang advocated, taught and moved the same way this couple describes the way MLM moved. Interesting.

[@pmgandco6322]

I was part of an MLM. My “business” never grew. Everyone that I educated on the product signed up with someone else. I didn’t want to be rich, but it would have been nice to have enough people in my line to pay for my monthly products. Never happened. Then, a couple of years ago there was a giant reveal that the company was supporting and encouraging some very occult practices. I walked away, cancelled all my auto shipments, etc. Now I know why my business line never grew. I feel God was protecting me. I reached out to the people I had encouraged to join and apologized to them. A couple stayed, the others left like I did. I have asked God to forgive me for leading others into that MLM.

[@jenellehardin2670]

Oh my goodness. Such a valuable and educational video! I'm still learning how to adult properly, biblically, now in my 60s. Shepherding movement, dysfunctional family, but rescued by the Lord. Thank you for both these posts about MLMs with a clear Biblical lens.

[@redrockplumber5124]

Thank you for this line of video's, I can so... relate. The company I worked for adopted this MLM mentality. The leader was a "pastor" at a local cultish "church". When I didn't play along I was blackballed. Not only was I shunned but I came under the bomb sights. After many weeks of trying,"unsuccessfully", to be a contributer to the team, by God's grace, I was able to escape being crushed as an example. Lol, so, after three years, there has been, not a single word from anyone in that group.

[@melissalowcock3035]

Watching this was very healing/therapeutic for me. It gave me so much clarity after all these years as to why I didn’t succeed in “the business”. The business blames lack of hard work or not wanting to succeed enough. But this video made me realise anyone who realises their techniques are manipulative and don’t like that won’t succeed. Those who are ok with being manipulative will succeed a bit (with people who don’t naturally pick up on BS). So it’s only those who genuinely think they are doing the right thing and don’t realise they are being manipulative and do the work who succeed a lot.

[@ariannatartan5449]

MLMs have a negative effect on children as well! When I was an adolescent my parents joined what I know now was an MLM, thanks to these videos. It was great to begin with! There were other families with kids our age and we made really good friends. My dad decided he didn't like the pressure to view all relationships as potential clients and left. I was devastated and didn't understand why our friends stopped talking to us, until now.

[@rebeccah8021]

This is the best expose on MLMs for believers that I have watched. The control over their lives, twisting of Scripture, "talent" for controlling others and loyal to your leader....this speaks to so much that also goes on in churches, even many well-meaning churches. I am not talking about health and wealth churches.

[@linzzz519]

I would disagree that an MLM can be done in a healthy way. I’ve been recruited by over 20 people. They lie and mislead for the corporation, sometimes without even knowing it. I knew a couple pastor’s wives that began to see congregation members as recruits and customers before friends and siblings in Christ. I’ve seen multiple relationships ruined. I’ve seen people go from being empathetic listeners, to people who listen in order to address objections. I’ve seen people get roped into autopays without being told. I’ve seen people be unsuccessful and lose money for over a decade. I’ve seen people espouse and recommend new thought idealogies. And I’ve seen shunning happen. The worst situations, however, are “health and wellness” corporations who lead their consultants to think they have some kind of medical expertise which they can espouse to others.

[@RCGWho]

True. How can a completely corrupt structure be done well? That's like saying you can participate in scientology in a healthy way.

[@happygilmore3706]

One of the best videos I have seen in a long time. Practical and applicable to so many situations and settings. Very gracious as well. God bless!

[@feliciakoziczkowski3703]

I love Kathy. Started listening to her podcast about a year ago. Filter it Thru a Braincell:) has really helped my thinking and studying logic with our highschool kids. ❤

[@courtneyko1466]

Oh my goodness. This is my former Mormon church experience and I was also in so many MLMs. My favorite one is Optavia because it actually helped people lose weight and you didn't have to be super dependent on products after you lost the weight you desired but I even walked away from that because it always felt like I was making my relationships strained and awkward. It became too anxiety producing and I will never join another MLM again. It's the carrot on a stick for a majority of people.

[@ChiefBridgeFuser]

Small business owner here, not an MLM, bootstrapped over 16 years ago. Having read some sales training stuff, some Robert Cialdini, the MLM stories here sound like what happens if you drive at all the persuasion techniques to optimize for "the love of money". Cialdini's first book is creepy because the things he describes you see happen all through the bible. It seems like this is the way we're wired. The problem is the narrow optimization for a "result" without regard to what it does to the person, your relationship with the person, your relationship with others. Great hearing from Noble and Kathy -- 2 very high speed people. ♥

[@rebekahmiller4143]

I was in one where I didn’t lose money and enjoyed it for a year or two. Didn’t make much money either, but didn’t try that hard. I did it for the “mission” of helping women in disadvantaged situations have meaningful work and for something to do for the social aspect. We sold products made worldwide by small groups of artisans. I truly loved the products and the captivating stories. We only had to sell one item every six months to keep selling. When they changed systems and I had to pay a monthly fee to use their online sales system and they increased sale requirements, I bailed. It also started getting weird with all the extra positive talk. It sounded so fake to me. Anyways, it would have been fine if it had stayed the way it started, but it morphed into a more typical MLM.

[@cryslaw100]

I missed my grandparents 50th wedding anniversary because of the annual conference. I regret that immensely nearly 20 years later. Both those grandparents are gone now. I was involved in the same MLM and same training team as them but in Canada.

[@cherylketcherside2459]

Yep, the part of stepping away. I thought when I built my business, I built friendships too. Only my upline leader reached out to me (and she has a couple times since then to only ask me to come back). It was like I never existed. It was a heart breaking reality check. I was only there to help them get a payout every month.

[@reconciledHRT]

soo... MLMs and WOF are cousins.

[@Markkos1992]

I have played prophecy bingo on Rachel Hollis videos before. They are all so similar. It is just hard for the Glory of Zion fake tongues and shofars to get us to cheat.

[@dolladp7769]

What is a wof ?

[@Markkos1992]

@@dolladp7769 WOF is an abbreviation for the Word of Faith Movement.

[@lulurobinson8109]

Very interesting and well done. I’m subscribing to both podcasts. Thank you All!

[@tripletgirl2484]

Hello from Albuquerque. This has been so informative and interesting in spite of never being involved in an MLM. I actually had to look it up!

[@DogDocLou]

I’m about halfway through and I love these two! But I do have a disagreement with one thing so far. When they’re speaking about the company wants us to make money by selling the product, not primarily from recruitment…. I have to ask… who is ultimately responsible for setting the compensation plan? Isn’t it…the company? So on their face the company may say one thing, but I’m very suspicious that they knew exactly what they were doing.

[@jenniferlawrence9598]

They explain there are two income streams, and to clarify TWO SEPARATE COMPANIES that you join when you are joining this MLM. There's the "name" that everyone knows, and that company's products, and new recruits think they are joining that MLM. It may take you many years to understand that that company is separate from your upline's activities, most of which are focused on you getting more people into the MLM, and buying the upline's "tools and conferences" which they tell you are needed to grow the business. He mentions there are two income streams, that's because there's one from selling the named company's products, and one from selling the tools to your downline. It takes distributors a long time to get to the point where they know about that second income stream. You have to be high up enough in the business that your upline decides you have earned a "cut" of that much more lucrative income stream. It is not listed in any compensation plan that the named company develops, because the named company doesn't get a penny of that completely separate business. And the recruits and less-successful distributors don't even know that most of the lifestyle of their upline that they're supposed to emulating is coming from the sale of tools, not the named company's products.

[@katierucker2870]

The one question in my head was, “How do they know that most of these people in mlm’s are truly not trying to be manipulative?” Yes, they built close friendships in these groups, but you still don’t know someone’s full intentions either. Like one commenter said, God will still judge your “good intentions”.

[@nikitalopez2222]

Thank you for this interview Melissa

[@visionvixxen]

To the degree that you’re a narc or spciopath- you can rock this!

[@Tompsf1]

Keep shining a light! Absolutely love your work and ministry, Melissa! We are ambassadors for Christ!! Clarity is important, accuracy is important, Scripture in context key.

[@TheCrazedave]

Very interesting... almost went into one but never pulled the trigger on it. I can see this looking back

[@whobeyou5342]

Im gonna guess the company they were in rhymes w/ Scamway

[@MoodyBluez116]

Yes. This is the world i grew up in

[@JerseyGurl4Life]

Probably

[@Josh-yr7gd]

You mean “Ham Tray” like Melissa said in her previous video!

[@RCGWho]

I don't understand how Amway still exists and people still buy in. I grew up around this in the 70s and 80s and it seemed everyone despised the company and would make jokes about being Amwayed by people.

[@pmgandco6322]

I was thinking Melaleuca. They are heavy heavy heavy into the learning seminars. However, I remember back in the day Amway pushed hard hard hard to have on auto-order the weekly learning tapes, $5-$15 a week adds up quickly, and goes straight to your up line. And they would shame you if you declined to buy them.

[@deannabanana9344]

Oh my gosh. This is nuts and so many people can probably relate to this experience.

[@nonaccount4684]

I've not been hurt in an MLM, I've been hurt by those in a MLM who I wanted to be authentic friends with but was just constantly treated like a marketing target.

[@JY-xs1dm]

Thank you Melissa. This is really important information.

[@williamkeep6099]

Thank you for this thoughtful take on being in an MLM. Your experience can and will help others. Regards, Bill Keep

[@Dman425]

I am 38 minutes into this, this sounds exactly like World Wide Dreambuilders(Amway)

[@mikenixon2401]

Well, I like to remain informed even if the other side is wrong. I had never heard of MLM. I appreciate their talking openly. For Noble, HOOAH. God bless you and Miss Kathy.

[@BoatingJapan]

The one up one down relationship is so similar to that of the five fold ministry model from the New Apostolic Reformation. You must follow the apostle.

[@ce3547]

I don't see how a business can be ethically successful if it's built on malipulation and lies. God judges our "good intentions" as well. My husband wanted us to join one of the MLMs. We went to one meeting where we were treated like kings and Queens. I was highly sceptable and was considered to be a negative force for his success. I said no to the scam. My husband went behind my back, borrowed money from family to purchase the kit with promises to pay it all back soon. It was a total failure. Again I was deemed the negative one even by the family and was blamed by them not getting paid back. I don't blame the business. I put the responsiblity on my husband and members who loaned him the money even though they knew I didn't approve. His desire for $$ and success was greater than his care for his family.

[@Window4503]

Generative AI is a good example of this as well. Much of it was trained off of stolen or unauthorized work that people spent hours of their lives making without any compensation for having it copied and remixed for the masses. Now it’s at risk of corrupting itself because these greedy companies are running out of training data to rip from others.

[@savedbygrace6108]

To be fair, it’s possible he thought that this was an excellent opportunity to care for and provide for his family❤️ Sometimes we are blinded and have good and bad motivations mixed together. I found that to be true of me🙏🏼

[@ce3547]

@@savedbygrace6108 We are blinded by our envy and greed no matter what our motives are. That's biblical

[@lukesalazar9283]

Thank you for covering this

[@karenolivier2306]

Just scrolling and thought that looks a lot like Kathy and Noble....whoa...what??? Listening to this ASAP❤

[@auntblingsgratefullife4480]

Amazing interview! Thank you!

[@Dman425]

One hour into this and I am convinced this is WWDB. I was in it this in 1992. Thank God my dad yelled at me enough to get out before it was way too late

[@bikimajic9610]

What is WWDB?

[@Dman425]

@@bikimajic9610 it stands for World Wide Dream Builders. It’s an organization that sells Amway products. But, has these events and tools that are described in this video that are supposed “help” you build “your business”. Everything they described in this video described WWDB to a tee

[@kaylar3197]

I think it is a particular branch of Amway.

[@Dman425]

@@bikimajic9610 it’s an organization that is a “support group” that these people describe in this video. It stands for World Wide Dream Builders

[@Dman425]

@@kaylar3197 it isn’t affiliated with Amway. It’s a support group for people who are in the Amway business though

[@humblejoy3564]

I grew up using Melaleuca...I saw them on your thumbnail. gonna watch this later!

[@williamhoodtn]

Mellissa, great video that pairs well with your 4-part video on MLMs.

[@loricatesthomas6968]

Melissa, this was excellent!

[@moisehermantin6532]

Man, I was there! I was with this one company, where we sold services and it was not bad, but I spent A LOT of money on subscriptions which I barley used after 20 years and I almost go into debt in buying their autoship marketing packages. My martial arts instructor, had a full program in teaching his students. Once he got involved in his MLM, he abandoned his program and started pushing more of his health company MLM products. So his martial arts program sunk after he did this.

[@quiltednestvintage6347]

well - it actually sounds like the were asked to leave... - that's what I heard her say. That's little different than 'leaving it all'. Plus they still buy the products! Also not too thrilled about the current stuff they're teaching. But no - I'm not a fan of MLM's. It uses people to get advanced. Always have to have people under you to succeed. We need stop being obssessed with being successful... youtubers included. Just share good i nfo w/o being click baity.

[@rr3901]

I don’t see how they can say that they didn’t know what they were doing was manipulative. They need to be honest with themselves. 😩🥴

[@withlesego]

I agree with you.

[@Lynnology]

That’s how they avoid the guilt. You don’t have to admit you were a predator if you claim ignorance. I call BS on that.

[@loreanrivera9895]

that is possible psychologically. Read about it

[@rachoooO]

I couldn’t figure out why y’all were so familiar and then it clicked, the CC Facebook page! 😂 great ep, thanks for sharing!

[@Priscilla_Bettis]

I'm glad I was never interested in an MLM. My eyes were opened by this video!

[@samburton2978]

Another fantastic video!

[@tanyafromjefferson5484]

Fantastic interview! I was in Mary Kay in the 90’s. I wish KZbin had been around then!

[@MicheleKemper]

Listening to these wonderful guests, I can relate totally, 100%. I think I know what MLM they were in. Hearing the money streaming coming from the team coming to the conferences was something we found out from a crossline and thats what made me quit.

[@kimberlymurray304]

I knew I recognized her! We love Filter it Through a Brain Cell! 😄💪🧠

[@ginaexum3345]

I have always felt like a magnet on the opposite side when it came to mlm’s. What I do not like, is the cheerleading attitude. I am not that kind of person. No matter what you tell me, I will never be! This is what I needed, confirmation of a decision I could not make about getting back into a mlm to help financially. It’s not for me.

[@joanhartley6557]

I’m still getting those vibes from them in this interview.

[@monicaLynn7]

Thank you for this interview. I’m a bit surprised that they still order products from the company.

[@abonchat]

Prosperity gospel and MLM tactics. So much alike that it makes me ask…which came first? Did prosperity preachers take a page out of these business models or was it the other way around? Or did they develop simultaneously and grow out of each other? Also, those prosperity preachers are totally salesmen/women aren’t they?

[@jimgrady9905]

Melissa, what an awesome job you did with both videos. That took a tremendous amount of work. Thank you for putting these 2 MLM videos out. One question, you mentioned “New Thought” in both videos. Are there any resources you have or recommend that can go in depth with what that is, what they teach, and comparing it with Scripture?

[@Blablassis]

Thank you my beautiful evangelist

[@tacticalbibleguy]

i was in amway and they told me that i couldnt go platinum in a year and i did it and was making all kinds of huge money. what made me leave was I had a huge issue with the dude that was running with and all the pride and lies they told me. everyone left after i did and i had a huge downline. MLM is evil.

[@Josh-yr7gd]

I was also in Amway. Stayed in for 4 years because of the mind control. Never had a team. I used to think I failed, but I know now that the system is flawed. I still have regrets of doing more evangelizing for the MLM than I ever did for the Gospel.

[@pamelabishop2794]

I agree with what Kathy said about upper level people in MLMs making their money off people below them buying the products. This is especially true with companies where the products really aren't in general demand for themselves. (Ham tray for example). The top level people also make money selling motivational materials . At the time we were in, it was books and tapes. There is also the issue of market saturation. My husband figured out that if you and everyone under you each sponsors 5 people , within 12 levels you have 244+ million people. That's over 2/3 of the population of the United States. It's also not taking into account that a lot of those people are couples or children. If you get to 15 levels that's 30 billion people. I think it's very difficult to make good money in one of these MLMs and be truly Biblical and Christ centered in your life and relationships. I don't want to eat, sleep and drink a business with Jesus as my mascot. I don't want to approach every person I meet as a potential customer. Not that everyone does but those that don't will usually peter out or not keep growing because their relationship circles do get saturated. I've enjoyed going to some of my friends' makeup parties or so on, but it does not take long to get enough of a product and involve enough of your friends to realize saturation. I will say that my husband and I tried to be part of it in a healthy way but felt conflicted the whole time.

[@emilythestorier4428]

Good interview, but I couldn’t help but feel ill from hearing how much manipulation they were involved in. I can’t make personal judgements but they seem way too chill about the reality of what they took part in and the damage they did. Wish they were more stern and condemning about everything they did and the practices of these companies. I always knew MLMs were sketchy but the control/shame tactics are even worse than I realized.

[@rebekahchalkley3252]

23:50 "Most of the people had good hearts and good intentions." This is breaking my mental model and adding nuance to my thinking, because for a long time I have thought, "The people who are doing well in an MLM must be the kind of people who are toxic enough to be ok with ripping off all the people under them." But I guess it's not that simple.

[@rebekahchalkley3252]

53:01 "The people who do the best are the best at ... being manipulative." Ok so I wasn't too far off track. I do have to say, it must have taken a lot of humility for the two of you to face the cognitive dissonance and sunk costs and amount you had your identity wrapped up in this and be able to decide to walk away.

[@Josh-yr7gd]

I think some people are just naturally better at persuasion and selling things. In Amway they taught us to be “duplicate-able” so others would follow in our footsteps. They wanted us to be cookie cutter images of one another. But yet they would always give examples of people excelling in their own unique craft to motivate us. That always seemed backwards to me. We all have unique gifts. After I left, my friends told me that this MLM didn’t fit my personality, which was one of the best compliments I could have received. I’m not naturally a salesperson and I felt like I lost myself in this MLM.

[@kristinballancemusic]

This reminds me sooo much of IBLP... Especially the part about submission and unity. Melissa, please do a video on Bill Gothatd and IBLP!!!

[@John_Lete]

Melissa has a video she did on BG from a year ago.

[@kristinballancemusic]

@@John_Lete thanks. I'll look for it.

[@EricCoop]

As a veteran who has been retired for 2.5 years, all I seem to get for "job offers" via LinkedIn are from financial services companies-not just any financial services companies, but the MLM kind. Mostly fellow veterans and it's always the same pitch - build a "team," get passive income, get wealthy fast. The takeaway is that a given MLM has a target demographic. MLM insurance companies target military veterans. The MLMs in Utah target LDS wives. I was at a FinCon a couple years ago and most of the place was overrun by an Atlanta-based travel agency MLM that seems to target Black women.

[@Lasuth82]

Great video!

[@shalondaking4708]

So I'm 45 minutes into the video and had been wondering what company the couple were previously a part of. The minute one of them made the distinction between the company versus training team, I KNEW which company it was........LOL I'm glad they decided to leave and move on with their lives :)

[@stackstradingllc]

I know Kathy and Noble, great human beings, when Michelle and I did our interview and helped a bunch of people who were leaving at the time, they really helped a lot of people.

[@Gossie88]

When Kathy mentioned that it's really good and helpful until it's not is the reason I quit the mlm I was involved in. I became super convicted because of the manipulation I realized was happening. I really did care about people until it hit that point where it was definitely not okay.

[@JoyfulNoiseLiving]

Melissa, can you please do a video on how to talk to a friend who is in an MLM like this (and deep in Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel)??

[@heatherduvall4205]

Yep! My husband and tried a financial MLM for a while. I never had to greatest feeling about it. Thank you Jesus we got out.

[@jenniferlefever3163]

I haven’t seen all the videos, and I have been in a couple different MLMs, always joining because I love the products. The one I am in now calls it Next Level Marketing, people really do help each other out (most of the time), and they don’t treat you like dirt if you choose not to build a big team. Of course there is always those who will steal recruits etc. I chose to continue to stay in right now because of the products. I learned from owning a franchise that it takes more work than any person should put in and I refuse to miss family or church events to earn status and dollars. It’s not worth it, we can’t take it with us. I also don’t want to drive people away and I don’t want superficial relationships. I do truly want to help people and I don’t have a problem with people who make money helping others (I can come up with gobs of business and professions that do). But it shouldn’t rule their life.

[@markrichardson3566]

Great video, make some more 🎉

[@violinogirl]

Right, missing your brother's wedding... I understand. I never got into the MLMs because I saw other MLMs participants missing important family events (people that really matter in your life!). The first invitation I got to join them, I was straightforward with a simple yet firm No, thank you.

[@DaughterOfTheKingdom16]

Personally for me if you’re part of this and you dont separate God from the business its going to be a dangerous slope. I always go to my Bible first.

[@EnduranceinChristJesus]

It’s like the prosperity gospel of tithing to the top

[@mottgirl13]

I did learn much in my venture into direct marketing. I learn so much about people and their homes. lol. There was one time I was doing a demo, and it was in the middle of their mlm meeting. They wanted me to do my demo (it involved cooking a 5 course meal) after their meeting but I said, both our time is valuable, so let me finish my demo, and I’ll be out of your meeting. 🤪🤪🤪🤪

[@aliuscogitabam]

Commenting for the algorithm cuz I'm early ☺️

[@malcomlittle251]

I lost a friendship with a childhood friend because they were being told by their "Upline" that if your friends don't join, then they are NOT your friends 😐 Weak minded people fall for this. They did. 😐

[@hectordesantiago9500]

I’m so sorry, that’s terrible

[@101runaways]

Thats really sad.

[@lifeofbeautyk]

Wow that is new.

[@malcomlittle251]

@@hectordesantiago9500 Yeah. Crazy.

[@malcomlittle251]

@@101runaways Yeah. It was and is a bummer.

[@Zynn16]

I used to be an MLM junkie too and joined so many companies from 1995 to 2021. I did make money in them, tho...but never "struck it rich." Thank God Im free from all of it now. There were times I would be convicted, and I'd think; How can I go introduce people to buy these products and join this company and not introduce them to Jesus to receive salvation?!! For me, it became SHARE JESUS or SHARE PRODUCTS....I chose SHARE JESUS!!! Now im free and sharing Jesus! Great interview.

[@theguerrerofamily9699]

I follow Katy already on her podcast!! We’re both classical convo families too 🥹🥹 I didn’t know this about her past as well.

[@AaWa-dp4oq]

Is classical coversations the mlm tbey are referring to?

[@theguerrerofamily9699]

@@AaWa-dp4oq nope.

[@theguerrerofamily9699]

@@AaWa-dp4oq classical conversations has no way of getting rich like that 😅 nor do they sell house goods

[@RCGWho]

​@@AaWa-dp4oqCC is a homeschool co-op