From Genes To Memes: Philosopher Dan Dennett on the Evolution of Language & AI

I will be on tour of North America, UK & EU talking about my latest book, religion, life on earth and beyond. I will be joined on stage by a range of friends and foes on stage. The events will include a Q&A and a limited meet-and-greet. You can get your tickets here: richarddawkinstour.com/
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In this interview with philosopher Dan Dennett, we discussed his brilliant book I've Been Thinking and the evolution of not just humankind, but of language and culture. We explored questions like: What is the future of human consciousness? And what role do AI technology and deep fakes play in our understanding of truth and reality?
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[@cdespejo]

The more I hear Daniel Dennett talk and the more I read him, the more I want to go back to school and somehow study whatever helped him be who he is. But I'm just thinking :) What a great interview!

[@cavalrycome]

53:46 I was at that Evolution of Language meeting in Boston, and I spoke to Chomsky there about Richard Dawkins as it happens. Specifically, I spoke with him about the appearance of design being a diagnostic of adaptation by natural selection. I also met Dennett there, who introduced me to the idea of a think-o, which is the equivalent of a typo but for thought. It was a very interesting conference.

[@lauraj8429]

Thank you Professor Dawkins for your wonderful content. This takes me back to the wonderful 'four horsemen' discussions that helped me deconstruct my religion.

[@karagi101]

That was riveting!

[@thedeadman8361]

It's great to see Daniel again!

[@microzoo3775]

Daniel Dennet was such a heartwarming, sweet human being. We will miss him so much. All his teachings will endure and transcend time and space.

[@Richard_Stroker]

Great to see Professor Dawkins finally have his biggest hero on the podcast, Charles Darwin.

[@PartlySunny74]

This is my idea of heaven, listening to these two. ❤❤❤

[@shanieboy9187]

Ironic statement

[@decimustv4257]

This is not my idea of heaven. I would much prefer to be surrounded by beautiful women.

[@Mizrob10]

@@decimustv4257for how long though?

[@karagi101]

@@decimustv4257You’d get used to them and bored eventually. Trust me. You need more than beauty.

[@samuellyngdoh9982]

It is indeed great seeing these two talk

[@barbaragemin5117]

I found this conversation absolutely riveting! Thank you so much, it’s a privilege to be able to hear the thoughts of two great minds. The Poetry of Reality is amazing.

[@MindfulBarbarian]

I recently finished reading Professor Dennett's latest book, and I'm glad to see this, especially since it's so recent.

[@natokafa5238]

My two heroes!!!🎉🎉❤

[@mathaha2922]

Thank you! A wonderful conversation!

[@tnvheiseler]

I was reading Fisher's book and found myself in a context in which everyone was a Gould fan and always argued with my friends, to a point where I thought I must be the one going the wrong way, and then I read Dennett's Darwin book and it was such a relief because it precisely contained everything I had tried to argue against Gould, but with less courage and clarity.

[@kollagubbenful]

I'm smiling all through this conversation. I remember watching Richard and Dan when i was a teenager. I was worried about death. The soothing feeling they gave me talking about it with their polite, intellectual manner was priceless for a sensitive teenager going through a existential crisis. Thank you both for the feeling of hope and joy while listening to you. :)

[@tow.JanWinnicki]

If, as Richard Dawkins says, philosophy is all about learning how to think with absolute clarity, I want to be a philosopher!

[@DaboooogA]

Great discussion - I do hope there are worthy successors to these two.

[@josefschiltz2192]

Wonderful to see Dan looking so well.

[@e.x.ceaser2958]

RIP

[@josefschiltz2192]

@@e.x.ceaser2958 Yes. That was a painful shock. Deeply saddened when I heard. I felt impelled to get his autobiography when it came out. It's been sitting on the shelf, waiting for a quiet time when I can read it. Now I am reluctant because it will be his last words in print.

[@jackbyrd381]

Your conversation together really did get my mind to thinking. I would call that a good thing.

[@sobekneferu4041]

Yay!! 2 of the 4 horsemen of atheism back together! So wonderful to see both of you!

[@Laneline5000]

Great conversation! Thank you.

[@JeriReino]

Hi Richard , thanks for the interview Please push Daniel to be more present online . You guys are my people .

[@SergioMLTarrero]

Eternal, monumental Dennett. Thanks Richard for setting this up! ❤

[@RodCut]

Really enjoyed this conversation! Two Great minds!

[@tommyvictorbuch6960]

The moment someone says they'll pray for me - I'll say DON'T! They'll probably ask why, and I will tell them: You could have prayed for me, without telling me about it. The moment you told me that you would pray for me, you made it all about you.

[@jimtomo9207]

When someone says they pray for you, it's just the language they use to let you know their thinking of you. It is common language to hear in a hospital.

[@tommyvictorbuch6960]

@@jimtomo9207 in the US maybe, but not here in Denmark.

[@keep-ukraine-free528]

@@jimtomo9207 You may not realize, but in America religion became "showy" - performative. People need to tell others. In the civilized world (remainder of the world), religion mostly stays inside each person's own head.

[@blondequijote]

​@@jimtomo9207idc if they say theyre praying for me or thinking about me. Either one creeps me out or makes me wonder how bad my situation looks.

[@tommyvictorbuch6960]

@@paxalotin, bollocks.

[@douglaschinn5132]

Awesome talk !!!! THANK YOU RICHARD

[@ohalloranjames]

this is a very helpful conversation, making me think more deeply about things, especially truth vs reality. thank you

[@Claudi333]

Great show, keep it up, Dawkins!

[@jetjames420]

What are you dawkin about

[@Claudi333]

@@jetjames420 lol

[@bobbresnahan8397]

Simply wonderful as is the book! I've been thinking! Thank you Richard and Daniel.

[@gregorybrown9101]

R. I. P., Daniel Dennett. 😢

[@PartlySunny74]

We need a new phrase for “RIP”. Condolences to all who admired and miss him and gratitude to all that positively influenced him. ❤❤❤

[@grahamwood9612]

Great interview, thank you both of you! The thing that came to my mind when the question "Is a rabbit a bird?" was discussed was the Duck-Rabbit Illusion.

[@ReiverBlue1971]

Wonderful! Something becomes clearer :)

[@fritsgerms3565]

Two standout academics. Even if one was branded as a journalist by a prominent scientist. It was funny.

[@budisetiono1193]

Terima kasih.....sangat mencerahkan ❤😊

[@davidcoverdale722]

Just getting to this video now. what a shame Daniel is no longer with us. This must have been one of his last interviews.

[@DreadRaider]

A nice chat to listen to.

[@Pacer...]

Excellent as. Usual Richard, schopenhauer is my favourite philosopher.

[@Jay-ft3xh]

I am impressed with your choices in punctuation.

[@Pacer...]

@@Jay-ft3xh thanks as usual

[@greenblue6935]

Love this guy's work on the younger dryas impact theory.

[@cotwodogger5812]

had Dr. Dennett taken care of his health as he did for his mind, he may well be still with us. Brilliant insights. However, prayer does work but not the way you would think. There are circuits below our conscious mind that are reached by prayer. It opens our minds in ways that we don't understand. Speaking connects deeper than just thinking. Speaking in a group is even deeper. "God" is within you.

[@user-kv2bp5eh9q]

Some 60 years back my dad & I attended a philosophy lecture by a professor who defined his discipline as "the study of untestable assumptions". Dad's reaction was (essentially) "What horseshit. More vacuous thought from an university bureaucrat." I'm sorry he didn't live to witness Daniel Dennett (and others) eloquently moving academic philosophy from sterile speculations into meaningful inquiries about reality and practical advice on using that understanding to live a flourishing life in an irrational world. I rarely read philosophy now, but I make an exception for Dan's books.

[@pickaxingoneuropa8457]

I had the luxury of listening to this discussion while putting together my lego 'Dune ornithopter', a 'cultural evolution' collection. Although Dennett & Dawkins were actively 'picking apart' my thoughts, they nonetheless helped me in 'putting the pieces' together. I thank you both, that was fun👍🐋😄

[@Bornonlyonce2]

Daniel Dennett may be dead. But his ideas lives on. His memes, as originally defined by Richard Dawkins, will forever be incorporated in human cultural interactions. To a greater degree than most of us could ever aspire to.

[@DeconvertedMan]

It would be fun for Richard to interview an AI Richard :D

[@solarwonder]

i was amused when dawkins remembered to ask people who prayed for dennett's healing, "and did you sacrifice a goat?"! as for epiphanies and thanking the medical personnel that helped him survive, for their professionalism, it reminded me of the shortcomings of society's memory honoring Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine. Imagine how every child knows about him, but there has never even been a serious biopic or docudrama about the life of Hippocrates. and not so many details are in books. Nobody even asks, did he actually cure any disease so his accomplishment merited him becoming a revered physician. or was he just a useful bureaucrat who coined 'do no harm' at the right place and time?

[@u.s.navy_pete4111]

At 42:31: I think it's interesting that Dennett seems to be more convinced of the meme theory of cultural evolution than Dawkins (who popularized the idea). Does anyone know why Dawkins has some doubts about memes as analogs to genes? Thank you in advance for any replies.

[@mk1st]

Great discusdion, thanks. When it comes to AI I’ve always thought that these systems don’t need sentience to be dangerous, just purpose.

[@VaughanMcCue]

What a great time to be alive

[@user-bm6su2rq5p]

Language and Culture is directly connected to thoughts, sound and memory of labels. Frequency! PLB SA ❤

[@inregionecaecorum]

I don't think I had any choice in the matter of my attitude towards philosophy and it was of little help to Archimedes when the Romans came, and seriously I wouldn't have wanted the consolation of Boethius. It is good to see Daniel Dennet alive and in "good heart" It is all a game of chance. I had the good fortune to be born and grow up through the best years of the NHS, but the best health care available at the time did not save my parents from an early death, which was not only predetermined by their genetics, but also the times they grew up in and the circumstances they experienced. I carry with me both the fortitude of my mum, but the vices of my dad which my GP has failed to cure in spite of my own experience with cardiologists. Anyway to cut a long story short Daniel has long been on my list of top philosophers as his writings have influenced my own researches and informed some refreshing conversations with my late friend Dr Dinah Murray who was one of the originators of the interest theory of human cognition.

[@objetivista686]

I often dont feel good when i encounter a doctor not just becsuse it tend to happen in a state of some illness but also because doctors, at least in Brazil, tend to be quite... Pragmatic with human lives...

[@mdesm2005]

42:00 some people are constantly looking for ways to pump energy into the idea that there's a parental figure in the sky overlooking everything. That's why Richard's friend saw 'no problem to be solved'. He doesn't WANT there to be a problem to be solve. That's why Dennett' student in the pub reacted to their new knowledge about ribosomes as they did. The feeling of being impressed will be used to rescue the parental figure. You can't reason a person out of a position if they fell into it w/o reason and hold on to it for emotional comfort.

[@fraser281]

Riverlake Rugby has evolved!!

[@chan625]

Loved the conversation and I know I am too small to comment on the collective intellect here but I am sorry, if you have to resist the reflex to ask 'did you sacrifice the goat for me?' when someone who wants good for you prays for you, even if you know it doesn't help you but only calms them down - then it's not good. It's a bit like a jibe a politician might throw in a TV debate or even like a religious person would comment, always seeking opportunity to impress upon or convert someone who doesn't believe in his/her faith. Instead you could just say thank you for thinking of me in difficult times and move on, especially as your close ones already know who you are

[@ayoolaayodejidavid638]

We've got to start checking the correlation between intelligence and beards. 😂

[@P.viridis]

Is this a new discussion?

[@808cantwaiT]

The OG horsemen’s 🫶🏼

[@94djeep]

I like this old guy. He makes me think.

[@MeganFMiller]

In the thought experiment, where am I?, how do you take into account headaches? Also, because I "feel consciousness" in my brain, and not my eyes, my assumption would be that, with an external brain connected to the body with wires of some sort, I'd experience my body as perhaps a collection of appendages or one very complex appendage.

[@MeganFMiller]

Actually, in thinking about this a bit more, I suspect there could be very little change in how one experienced the body or the brain. The distance between the brain and the rest of the body can't be sensed, if there are no sensory neurons between the two. Aren't there already studies about brain/consciousness/body relationships? And of course, if you were given a hard knock on the skull, your brain would still be okay, so there would be some differences in body sensations.

[@vids595]

You can feel the center of consciousness shift to different parts of the body with practice. Truthfully we all experience this from time to time without being mindful of it.

[@catherinegoodsett-wein3313]

The mocking jay. We are in the hunger games.

[@stardust_memories2260]

Is this new, or just re-edited material?

[@thedeadman8361]

They discuss Daniel's book "I've been thinking" which was published in October so I think it's new.

[@josephcollins6033]

RICKY!!!! You look so well and strong. Please keep going and going for us! Remember that "we serve an awesome god"!!!! Bahahahahahahahahaaa! Much love to you.

[@beefandbarley]

Nice to hear from two of the Horsemen.

[@HomeDesign_Austin]

great

[@mathematicsandstuff]

That strong boundary very sharp boundary you are here illustrating is german more precisely viennese it has to do alittle bit with the architecture of schools and gymnasium schools and it is quite good. That boundary is quite good, trust me, on this

[@stephanwinter2129]

Please site the study you mention on intersession prayer

[@user-xl8ku6uj3v]

In the last two years, Professor Richard Dawkins has lost weight. I am very concerned.

[@TaimazHavadar]

دقیقا برنامه نویسی در کامپیوتر ، همان‌ مسیر فهم و حل مشکلات بر اساس فهم فلسفه ی مدرن است و بر پایه منطق و استدلال ،یک یا چند الگوریتم براساس علت ها و معلول هاست . و گزاره های آن همان اشتباه است ،گزینه بعدی،تکرار چرخه ، این یا آن ،اگر اینطور باشد پس به این گزینه برو ، اگراینطور نباشد ،در مرحله بعد فلان کار را انجام بده، و ،و ،و..... دقیقا و دقیقا ، همان کارهایی که ما در استدلال و منطق در فلفسه انجام میدهیم برای رسیدن به نتیجه های درست و برای تهیه مدلی منطقی ، برای حل موضوعات مختلف از ساده تا پیچیده👍👍 این که گفتن خودش یه مدال نوبل داره ها 😊👍

[@chriswatson3464]

Has anyone seen? Or have an opinion on AI Christopher Hitchens?

[@KubaSobecki]

@20:17 About AI

[@In_Paradiso58]

To be fair i haven't read anything by Dan Dennett, though he seems an interesting guy to read...However, i must thank him for ilucidating his weak spot...Thanks Dan...

[@user-xl8ku6uj3v]

❤❤❤

[@gulsen8015]

Can you add Turkish subtitles ?

[@jamespercy8506]

philosophers see better out of the corner of their eyes than scientists, for the most part

[@mdesm2005]

As 'philosophy' discovers that the mind is what the brain does, and the brain is a machine, and since engineering has been about building machines, 'philosophy''s destiny to fold into engineering.

[@gerardgauthier4876]

There's one reason I take science over philosophy.. Science has a umpire(nature) that calls every claim in science. You make a claim in science then you'd better be able to(eventually) demonstrate that claim in a lab or the very least point to some compelling evidence.

[@mk1st]

But philosophy does get us to think about how we use that science. It’s not one over the other (imo). Eugenics would still be a thing without philosophy pulling us back from that dark road.

[@johnbush9790]

Daniel Dennet will be missed

[@user-bm6su2rq5p]

❤

[@dirkschmitz7884]

Somehow it always makes me sad to see him being so old :(

[@blondequijote]

Ill drink one for their prolonged health. Also, i guess you wont want to be a thomas sowell fan bcuz hes in his 90s still writing books.

[@brucethomas471]

Thank you so much! I finally know where the egg laying Easter bunny came from.. rabbits are sold with poultry. It's too good not to be true!

[@carolspencer6915]

💜

[@wp9860]

I eventually quit watching about 3/4 of the way through. Did they ever get to the headline subject. Or, was all old war stories?

[@daneshagahi]

❤❤

[@tommitchell6307]

I must say that, if it were possible to transplant brains, I'd have Daniel Dennett's replace mine in a flash. I disagree with much of what he says, except about evolution, but if I could think and talk like him I'd be a very happy man.

[@JavierBonillaC]

To me the fact that Schopenhauer and Donald Hoffman said that time and space are a mental creation, has me dumbfounded.

[@iart2838]

We must realize that language cannot explain how universe works, not even math

[@bolldamm3966]

@@iart2838 And we can't assume that the universe does work

[@ahmetdogan5685]

Getting old is brutal.

[@karagi101]

There are also a lot of positives to making it to old age.

[@vids595]

@@karagi101Such as?

[@karagi101]

@@vids595 I’m 60. Retired at 53. So there’s financial freedom if you saved and invested which allows you to retire and travel and do all the things you enjoy but had no time while working. There’s time to work out and get in better shape than when you worked. There’s the knowledge and wisdom you gained. The life experiences and memories. No need to worry about looking good to attract a mate. Take a look at surveys and you’ll find older people are the happiest.

[@Stoomraider]

Gene's + Meme's = Bene's, human benes!

[@XD226]

48:00

[@iart2838]

Scientists must be paired with philosophers and artists. On their own most are just technicians

[@thelastaustralian7583]

The current serious attack on Childrens biology from emf/emr is real ! And is of major evolutionary concern !

[@GoBlueGirl78]

🙄

[@thelastaustralian7583]

in the field for many years asking simple questions about Peoples Emf/EmR use . And basic knowledge of the effects of the Technology towards our Biology . From top to bottom, 99.99999 % knew not...@@GoBlueGirl78

[@jameswright...]

Don't understand evolution then 😂.

[@thelastaustralian7583]

Thank you for your example, that Humans are being dominated by unevolved instincts. @@jameswright...

[@jameswright...]

@@thelastaustralian7583 Instincts are evolved 🤣

[@repolarrepolar9833]

Next time, make it 2 hours. :)

[@billyb6001]

There’s no difference between something that seems conscious and what is conscious

[@vids595]

I disagree. The Turing test is of utility but it does not necessarily reveal underlying truth. Have you never for an instant mistaken something inanimate for a living being, only to realize that you were mistaken? Or do you believe that thing was truly conscious for a moment?

[@ScroogeMcWhat]

What if the evolution of a species had a life just like any other tissue and that could be observed in that it has a health

[@kadirsaracoglu6435]

Rest in peace.

[@poetryofreality]

Join 'The Poetry Of Reality' Telegram group for the latest content, discussions, feedback, and more: t.me/+-Uuk9wQjHJgyZjY1

[@mdesm2005]

I'm the hardest core atheist there is. "but". I recognize that most of the population isn't intelligent enough to not need religion. A degree of self deception is required because there is nothing 'sensible' about living.

[@MikkoVille]

What's the scientific evidence for the existence of memes?

[@GoBlueGirl78]

You’ve never read Dawkins, have you?

[@MikkoVille]

@@GoBlueGirl78 I've read the Selfish Gene and the Extended Phenotype. I've listened the Blind Watchmaker as an audio book. But that's beside the point. I take it you don't know the answer to the question either.

[@GoBlueGirl78]

@@MikkoVille Sure bro. 🙄 Evidence for memes: birds learning to open milk bottles & teaching others how to do the same; a friend sings a song, you get “earwormed” and start singing the song, another friend hears you, then they start singing it; orcas learning from each other how to attack boats.

[@Vadjong]

Pretty much the same scientific evidence you have for being conscious.

[@jimtomo9207]

Ideas shape culture that shapes civilization. Philosophers have noted this for thousands of years Dawkin is a bit slow on the uptake with memes. The spartan believed there were descendant from hercules. The Greeks look up to Achilles. Christendom looked up to jessus. All these civilizations and cultures acted appropriately in accordance with their beliefs and values.

[@ziaedin]

Neo-Darwinists argue that errors drive evolution forward, citing the evolution of complex structures like the heart as a result of countless genetic mutations. However, Dan contends that when it comes to matters of life, there is no margin for error. Hear what he says after 4:25 to 5:31. Dan "You got to get it right" ... Dan "boy you don't make mistakes." Richard "I agree." Dan "you don't make mistakes."

[@Biggnuncio]

Too bad Dan never looked into the economics of regulatory capture. It certainly isn't new that large companies want to be regulated, the railroads famously wanted to be regulated about a century and a quarter ago and the idea wasn't even new back then, the East India Tea company was the same way, and the beneficiary of the first to big to fail bailout. The simple idea is they don't want to face competition and the regulations they will take part in making will hinder new competition into the marketplace. Of course in every case this sort of thing hurts the populace and hinders creative progress in the regulated area for decades. It wasn't until trucking began to outcompete the railroads that any progress was made in that area though the regulators soon clamped down on that too. But if you wonder now why we don't have bullet trains and wildly more efficient rail systems it is exactly because competition was quashed in that area through regulation as it has been in hundreds of other areas.

[@xrzeropoint7989]

Actually been sailing with an old friend? How does he know he really experienced it? He might have had a tactile hallucination because his brain is in his butt. Heart surgery? How does he know he has a heart? They might have been operating on his brain which is in his chest.

[@mavrosyvannah]

If you two guys are on a fortunate probablity path you both will figure out a way to meet me. We will discuss the map of consciousness and you'll see the framework that the future will flesh out. My creation can be used to delay our unenviable extinction. Be brave. Make the call.

[@veerswami7175]

🤣😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@gonx9906]

Omg.. xD

[@chiropra1]

Dr Daniel Dennett died today. Information is real. Maybe what he conveyed somehow survives in those that he influenced, like me.

[@nitishgautam5728]

I think philosophy is like food of understanding deeper. But you can't just live on food . You need to go out do actually things . Philosophy is just a tool not a career .