Richard Dawkins vs. Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Political Christian or Truly a Christian?

[@poetryofreality]

I will be on tour of North America, UK & EU talking about my latest book, religion, life on earth and beyond. I will be joined on stage by a range of friends and foes on stage. The events will include a Q&A and a limited meet-and-greet. You can get your tickets here: richarddawkinstour.com/

[@TBOTSS]

What about William Lane Craig?

[@auturgicflosculator2183]

@@TBOTSS Up till now I had no idea who that was. Richard published a short piece titled "Why I refuse to debate with William Lane Craig" in the Guardian, on Thursday, October 20, 2011. Reading that has told me that I probably don't want to know any more about him, except to perhaps make sure I'm out of town if he ever visits here.

[@GHOST9780-d1e]

❤❤❤❤

[@TBOTSS]

@@auturgicflosculator2183 Dawkins is not an honest man. Even an atheist member of the philosophy department called Dawkins a coward for not engaging with a world-class Christian philosopher and theologian. As he pointed out Dawkins is quick to debate local pastors but runs from serious debate. Perhaps Dawkins was cowed due to William Lane Craig perfect record against Oxford professors as well as against two members of the Four Housemen (Hitchens and Harris).

[@kookamunga2458]

​@@TBOTSSYour opinion about this distinguished humanitarian known as Richard Dawkins is but just one opinion in a sea of many sniveling snide remarks. I can smell the victory and it smells like victory of freedom from the "chains of religion."

[@RetNemmoc555]

This is painful. She's dodging and weaving. I'm finding it very hard to accept that she actually believes. Science can't fully explain consciousness blah blah, so god? She knows better.

[@etaylor8028]

Hold on... She has not once described "God" in a sense that "if you don't do xyz then you're doomed to hell". Her understanding of "God" is that there is a greater purpose to life, your soul does live on, and that provides comfort to people. She was struggling with depression, and (either through "miracle" or simply a tweaking of her own subconscious) placed that power into a "higher power" (as it's called) and that cured her depression. It's a sort of placebo argument, however when it comes to mind, whether it is placebo or not makes no difference; the fact a change was made, means the method is valid.

[@Zurealz]

@@etaylor8028 Great philosophy to have, but it doesn't need the religious dogma along with it. If she is now of the faith and its tenets, she needs to be clear about the beliefs that that religion is based upon, as that's what being a Christian is. Her dodging and weaving makes her beliefs sound very disingenuous or that she's not telling the whole truth and has an ulterior motive with this awakening.

[@etaylor8028]

@@Zurealz I get what you mean, but if you read her book, she was forced into female genital mutilation in childhood (meaning her clitoris was cut off so she can never experience orgasm).. perhaps religion and belief in jesus christ was her way to cope with her depression?

[@gps9715]

@@etaylor8028 That happened to her BECAUSE of religion. jfc

[@clorofilaazul]

You supose "she knows better". I'm sorry, but the doesn't. She's really still the same young person she was when she was a Muslim who didn't understand reality satisfyingly. She came full circle.

[@Boris194786]

"Religion is considered true by the people, false by the wise and useful by the rulers" SENECA

[@bachamadu2076]

That's why Seneca committed suicide. The whole point is even the wisest man couldn't see beyond a horizon. He'd one life and blew it like a fool. Christianity, on the other hand, gives realistic hope. To say there's no go God is like a blind man saying there's no eye sight. The evidence for God, especially now with the advance of science, is inescapable. The evidence is overwhelming. I once was in the park and saw rather large insect with painted eye. I was wondering wow this insect has large and beautiful eye. I picked it up to see if it was real and then to my surprise the insect's was like a masked painted eye. How on earth unconscious, unguided, accidental evolution can do such thing???? Anyway, unlike Seneca and many, I'm so glad this woman chose to see life beyond this valley of tears, tears and every pain will one day will wipe away as it happened on the morning of Jesus' Resurrection.

[@MohamadPasandideh]

❤wow great saying ❤

[@funnelingspace9268]

I wonder where all that wisdom went when the USSR and CCP was propped up,

[@spicyhummus6266]

@@funnelingspace9268 In what you're talking about, communism overrides all. A country that uses secular thinking to advance the country will always progress (& become similar to the US) but a country that rules by forcing what you can & can't believe in. All that will do is keep the rulers in charge & break up the world. You can say most of China might be Atheist's but you can't say most of China are Secular Humanists. Atheism is one singular issue, "A lack of belief in god" & that's all. Its not political, its not secular, its not religious.

[@mrzib.crimson]

@@funnelingspace9268Communism is good enough substitute.

[@mikeleaptrott]

Clinically depressed people are the best targets of cults. 😢

[@uncoiledfish2561]

Hence, the wokening.....

[@ohthelushlife]

@@uncoiledfish2561 What does woke mean?

[@uncoiledfish2561]

@@ohthelushlife it can mean different things to different people. But I normally see it as incredibly sympathetic people letting emotion overrule rationality. They care more about someone feeling good, or being accepted than reality. I think it’s a feminine trait. They mean well, they do. But it’s incredibly toxic and actually does more bad than good. What is funny is, you could almost call flat Earthers woke 😅

[@thomastucker5686]

@@ohthelushlife it is a buzzword throne about to create a division as well as another political controlling force. I am surprised Richard would stoop to such a level to even not call out this ridiculous trend. When someone tacks on an 'ism', it is to set up and label a group of people. Folks are still calling 'others', Commies, communists, Marxists and with all of it, don't understand any of the philosophy. People speaking in buzzword salad, apologist tools, it is maddening.

[@avenginglettuce]

@@ohthelushlife Six days and counting....

[@xSteve1983x]

“Christianity makes me feel better, so I want it to be true” is really all she’s saying.

[@petermeyer6873]

And in a nutshell, this is really all there is when one has peeled off several plebeian layers of truth claims from the religious onion and looks at the catholic churches core definition what "faith" means.

[@Mushin367]

It’s worse. It’s: “Christianity makes me feel better, so I’m going appeal to some Jordan Peterson sophistry as well as layman religious arguments to make the case that it is true.”

[@petermeyer6873]

@@Mushin367 Yes. I can allways grant her every right to go with any fantasy that comforts her after what she has been through for as long as she would make that her private affair. But she is a politician now, and as such in the business of selling thoughts to people and gain power over others. Its absolutely fair now to confront her with how much wrongness she is promoting and for what hidden reasons. Furthermore she has chosen to go into politics in one of the most liberal and tollerating of europes countries. She knows that she can say really anything there without having to fear real consequences. She is now on the territory of zero risk versus maximum gain. Thats really the strongest contrast to where she came from and actually no development to be proud of.

[@DraGonnTheAkadian]

That's exactly what she's saying, unfortunately.

[@forrestorange]

Yep that, but I think there's also a "this would make a great book (much profit)" angle here too. Sad.

[@drewlovelyhell4892]

Saying that Atheism doesn't offer anything, is like telling a slave that freedom doesn't offer anything.

[@wet-read]

I get what you're saying, but it's true. Atheism by itself doesn't offer anything. And people who have shed their faith may still initially feel lost and confused in the world.

[@arthuroldale-ki2ev]

Yes Sireeeee!!!!!!!!

[@alanho6814]

Yeah, but that's just negation. To be generous, I think she meant atheism offers nothing positively, or adding something to the table, instead of just sweeping something nasty away; she wanted more. To use your own example, yes, freedom negates slavery, and the slave is now free from slavery, but does freedom tell the slave what to do next? Freedom grants the slave to be free and her future to be open but it doesn't offer an orientation. Now you know why she as a depressed person, who probably suffered from exitential dread, would want more.

[@aimerw]

@@alanho6814 Any scam will offer something. In fact, it is very easy to offer something if its a scam, since you don't need to actually provide that thing in the end. The question is, does the misguided hope that you will get something outweigh the everything you give up for it? If so, then conmen are the most virtueous beings around, since they offer so much hope.

[@Jaanikins]

@@alanho6814 Yes, so she should have gone out of her way to make a better lifestyle incorporating atheism and all of the good things that come from religion, philosophy, morality, politics, etc. Then she wouldn't be stepping back into the primitive mindset of religion but making something new out of it. Maybe she isn't the best person to create this new lifestyle, but she definitely has a responsibility as an ex-muslim speaker and pioneer of leaving toxic religious faith alongside Sam Harris, Maajid Nawaz, Richard Dawkind, etc to stay consistent and "Try" her best to create something.

[@jgiza8888]

“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them". Hypatia 5th Century

[@Tony11442]

You just reminded me of the movie Agora

[@richardvoyer5697]

It is absolutely mind-blowing how much power indoctrination has. WOWWWW. Should be treated as child abuse. Without indoctrination religion has nothing or diminish substantially.

[@NadiaKhan-oz4vy]

Ayan looks for something to fill a current political gap not truth. She may be sincere to that end but not to truth.

[@blupandax7902]

What about miracles such as Big Bang? A magical firecracker appearing from nowhere and exploding for no reason and creating the universe, along with star dust which evolved into dinosaurs?

[@jgiza8888]

@@blupandax7902 What you describe as "appearing from nowhere and exploding for no reason" is ignorance. Not knowing the cause does not make it a miracle.

[@vids595]

When people are indoctrinated into a world view that purpose, meaning and morality are ascribed to us by a deity, they often suffer from an essential crisis when they come to understand that this is not true. This was famously observed by Friedrich Nietzsche.

[@vids595]

Very sad to see people suffering this way thanks to indoctrination into supernatural beliefs.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@PJM273]

"I choose to believe" is not an argument. It is a horrible defense to nonsense. If you were to say to Ayaan, I choose to believe in wokeism, she would shred your logic to pieces. She's lost the plot - I feel sorry for her actually.

[@xSteve1983x]

Bingo. Belief isn’t a choice.

[@gvelden1]

Indeed. You are either convinced or you are not. Ayaan has become a nut case.

[@Taurex]

You can choose to dedicate your life to any idea and live your life as if it were true which I think is what people who say that really mean. Also belief is not binary, sometimes people might have a small part of them that actually believes and if you choose to dedicate your life to that thing then over time that’s probably gonna impact your actual beliefs. Btw this is coming from an atheist and I’m not trying to justify the belief in anything, just trying to explain it.

[@PJM273]

@@Taurex "as if it were true" is where your position falls apart. I choose to, it makes me feel better, my parents told me so ... are equally bullshit and harmful positions if you actually care about truth. You should teach/follow truth.

[@Taurex]

@@PJM273 As a fellow atheist and someone who deeply cares about truth I would tend to agree. But why do you care about truth? Maybe on some level you simply just do, but I think if you go a little deeper it ultimately leads to the avoidance of suffering/maximizing wellbeing. I care about truth because I believe that in order to properly orient ourselves in the world and best deal with it's problems, we have to align ourselves with reality. Why do I care about solving problems? Because I want to avoid suffering. If you're in a state of unbearable suffering then you'll do whatever it takes to get out of it regardless of what's true. Truth is no longer your biggest concern, and that's probably the way it should be in that moment. You can certainly argue that believing things that are untrue is bullshit and harmful, and as someone who deeply cares about truth I tend to agree, however at some point we have to be honest with ourselves and say that truth is not the only thing that matters. If you had the choice between living in a world free of suffering but you have to believe something untrue vs a world where you're 100% aligned with truth but everyone suffers as much as the possibly can, which one would you choose? If anyone says the latter then I can't imagine anything more irrational. Again I'm not trying to justify Ayaan's belief here, but I think she's more concerned with what's good for us than what's true (as we all at bottom are) so it makes more sense to argue against that position in those same terms rather than arguing only what's true.

[@maomao180]

She uses the word cult on every other religion except her own but does not realize she is in one herself.

[@marz6588]

My friend only JESUS is the way, the truth, and the life.

[@XypherMage94]

I used to be like you, think I was smarter than everyone else and that everyone who was religious was either brainwashed or stupid. Let me tell you, you're in your own cult of Ego. "Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love." "Existentialism isn't so atheistic that it wears itself out showing that God doesn't exist. Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing." "I suffer, but still, I don’t live. I am x in an indeterminate equation. I am a sort of phantom in life who has lost all beginning and end, and who has even forgotten his own name. You are laughing- no, you are not laughing, you are angry again. You are forever angry, all you care about is intelligence, but I repeat again that I would give away all this superstellar life, all the ranks and honours, simply to be transformed into the soul of a merchant’s wife weighing eighteen stone and set candles at God’s shrine” -Fyodor Dostoevsky

[@twnkltoesbrad]

⁠@@XypherMage94it’s not ego we want to save you Ur the one with ego

[@nadebob1519]

@@twnkltoesbradno you can't even save your own life mate, let alone the civilization that your Christian ancestors handed you over. Save your (future) children, if you are interested in saving people.

[@szarkazm]

Ayaan is so disappointing. I read so many of her books, she was a hero for women. She has been brainwashed, and it is beyond sad.

[@VesnaVK]

This is so sad. What do you think is happening here?

[@psyskeptic9979]

She is still great

[@alanho6814]

Not much as brainwashed I suppose, she did it herself. It's not that surprising actually, why would ancient people unknowingly invent religion/spirituality in the first place if not for some psychological comfort? It's not so much that there's a God-shaped hole in each of us but there's a hole-shpaed God in our imagination. And can you blame her? She was so depressed that she entertained the idea of suicide. When people are really desperate, under severe stress, something happens to their psyche.

[@saulger6409]

@@alanho6814 So she believes in God and has selected love as Christianity's tenet ? Not the end of the world and no problems to you or I or anybody else. It does not negate her criticism, based on what was personally inflicted on her, of Islam and murderous (to non-believers and non-followers of Sharia) Qur'anic exhortations.

[@VesnaVK]

@@alanho6814 your comment that there a "hole-shaped god" is brilliant.

[@Eudaimonia88]

Thank you, Professor Dawkins, for being the religious 'anti-vaxxer' we need in our lives and for bringing important conversations such as this one to a wide audience. If one tries very hard to view Ayaan Hirsi Ali's adoption of the Christian faith as being separate from and not influenced by her political views - which are not easy to categorise and some of which are often reminiscent of those held by conservative and right-leaning groups - then one needs to look at other reasons for her disillusionment with atheism. If one assumes that Ayaan Hirsi Ali - in the role of educator - is using her adoption of the Christian faith to better reach young people who are finding themselves in the moral vacuum she is describing - young people who are therefore possibly more likely to fall victim to radical Islamist ideas - then she is choosing her newly found religious faith to fight against the causes of Western moral collapse and to prevent our societal values from disintegrating. In this context her conversion and adoption of Christian teachings are a tool which she wields on the supposition that young people today, despite an education system built on humanist thought and higher levels of education, desperately need Christian moral principles in order to flourish and gain the necessary level of confidence against aggressive Islamist and Wokeist ideas. She must therefore feel that young people are not capable of applying the dictates of independent critical thinking and be emboldened by them, that a herd mentality prevails, that reason alone is not going to save Western civilisation, and that secular humanism is no bulwark against the tyranny of currently circulating virulent 'mind viruses'. As uncomfortable as it makes me feel, but what if Ayaan is onto something? What if human reason is not universal, neutral, and devoid of presupposition? Does faith in fact underpin any philosophy that claims to be the voice of autonomous and universal reason? This appears to be true for the philosophies of Kant, Spinoza and Hegel. Faith, then, could be an indispensable part of any philosophy of reason. Rationality, after all, involves committing oneself to a belief, and faith involves making judgments about what is trustworthy. Ayaan perhaps feels that severing the connection between reason and faith has led to our current problems. Why, for example, have considerable numbers of the formerly moderate liberal left eschewed it for aggressive, progressive and illiberal, in some cases fanatical, ideas? It appears to be difficult to do away with faith-based considerations altogether. Society appears to resist them, even - in some cases - at the highest intellectual levels. I still dream the dream of a rational secular humanist society, ultimately a global society that has risen above the need to create faith-based communities. May truth be our lighthouse and the search for it unencumbered by the sirens of irrationality! .

[@mrmaat]

Whatever the issues and voids created by secularism, the dangers of religious thinking have been on full display for 3000 years. Ayaan’s “cure” is a poison. A sweeter tasting poison, yes, but one just as pernicious as Islam.

[@Andy101-tm3hz]

Jesus wasn't even political!! Jesus told the rich to sell all their possessions and give to the poor and to not mistreat the foreigner or sick or those in jail or the orphans because if we mistreat them we are doing it to Him (Jesus)!! Jesus said in The Bible to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and Render unto God what is God's

[@Yusuf1187]

" then she is choosing her newly found religious faith to fight against the causes of Western moral collapse and to prevent our societal values from disintegrating." Right, and that's what a ton of people are saying - that this was a political choice. Why did you say to try separating this from her political views, and then immediately offer the suggestion that it was a conversion done due to her political views? "What if human reason is not universal, neutral, and devoid of presupposition?" Clearly it's not - if I understand your intended meaning correctly. And I think most people know this. This is why we develop means to mitigate the problems of unreason and presupposition as much as possible, by observing what ways of thinking cause verifiably erroneous conclusions. The scientific method and lists of logical fallacies have been developed through that observation, and can be tested to verify the logical reliability of a given principle or method. Even the very principle of avoiding absolutist conclusions of 100% certainty is born out of recognizing this problem. One of the most important points to remember is that "reason" does not have to mean "just anyone's opinion on what feels intuitive" (this would indeed be as almost as unreliable as faith, as it would be quite arbitrary to one person's personal experiences up to that point, and lack testing). But "reason" in the sense of a scientific worldview is not some arbitrary set of ideas or methods. It is a flexible set of ideas that has been built up over millennia of experience from millions of people - and continues to adapt today as we gain more information and new technologies to observe nature. It isn't some revelation. "Does faith in fact underpin any philosophy that claims to be the voice of autonomous and universal reason?" No, not really. Because then they would all be equally inflexible, nor could we use any of them to navigate the real world. But in reality, different ideologies function very differently, being more flexible or less flexible to evidence, and relying on vastly different amounts of assumption. In ideology A, you can have believers claim absolute certainty (as in Christianity). In ideology B, believers can reach a conclusion but claim they know they can't be absolutely certain. In Christianity or Islam etc, a person believes almost entirely the same thing regardless of evidence and observation. In an evidence-based ideology B a person could change almost anything in their worldview according to new information. If your goal is to know reality, then you must observe and account for all information, not rely on assumption (which you call "faith"). How do we know this? Because it's testable in even our daily lives. Assumptions disconnected from observation result in people holding completely different beliefs which never adjust. But observation and adjustment results in people's views converging more and more and - this is key - demonstrating success in navigating the world. There's a reason you don't use faith/assumption to decide where to walk on the street. You don't walk around with your eyes closed and your hands over your ears, and just believe whatever you want. Because you can test the result. You bump into things, trip, walk into traffic etc. So instead, you use your senses to observe and determine what is most likely true based on what your eyes and ears tell you. You walk accordingly. You will literally trip a lot less and walk on the right path. People use a rational approach in most aspects of life from walking around town, to engineering, to detective work etc. But they drop it in favor of assumption once the matter comes to their cosmological beliefs and what they find personally comforting to think about death and purpose because it feels more useful and effective for satisfying those desires easily. "Rationality, after all, involves committing oneself to a belief, and faith involves making judgments about what is trustworthy." What do you mean "involves committing oneself to a belief" in this context? Rationality is based on probability and flexibility according to evidence. Faith relies on certainty and remaining steadfast in that certainty even when contrary evidence. These are fundamentally different concepts. And rationality can and is used to make determinations about what is trustworthy. It need not be arbitrary. Again, the difference is in accounting for all available evidence from observation and testing WAYS of reasoning, versus faith which is where a person simply CHOOSES what to call trustworthy. And in case anyone misunderstands: if Ms. Ali thinks she has observed that *Christianity does a better job at maintaining western values than Islam*, then THAT is the "rational" conclusion here. But deciding that Christianity's cosmological claims and beliefs about resurrection and Yahweh being real etc is a faith-based belief in this situation, since she can't justify it with evidence nor even attempts to, interestingly. "May truth be our lighthouse" Statements like this demonstrate the difference between what is rational vs what is irrational. Truth itself is not directly knowable. It is a goal, not a guide. Evidence from observation is the only possible guide in reality simply because as humans all we can do is observe and test methodologies to make more observations to determine how the world works. So a lighthouse is a bad analogy - unless you're a Christian, since Christians view truth as a directly knowable entity which a person simply chooses to follow or not.

[@socratesalive]

I cannot quarrel with Ayaan Hirsi Ali's choice. She has found peace in Christianity. And Christianity is a better option than the alternative--Islam. Islam makes large claims for itself, "The Final Revelation," and looks askance at any form of criticism. Moreover, Christianity, for all its faults, has been a reluctant mid-wife to precious gifts, such as rule of law and equality. I don't agree much with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but she is right about one thing: it is time the West stood up and defended its values against the threat of a militant global Islam. Young people need to be educated in the promise of Western values. They are precious and envied the world over. Yes, the West isn't perfect; Yes, we have a long history of colonial violence, racism, and dominant. But there is a kernel in the culture from which high ideals such as individual freedom and human rights have sprung. Cherish it. Define it. Teach our kids about it.

[@bobinator17]

I'm thankful that her psychiatrist found a way to help her out of her Suicidal crisis... However, I'm also saddened that it seems a Very Inteligent person has been indoctrinated by the mental health care which saved her life.

[@PriteshRathod9]

This is what all the radical religious people do to the psychologically weak people to convert. That's called grooming.

[@phillipw6374]

Its like she forgot every reason why Christianity is bullshit, after she simply felt better. Glad to hear she's in a better place, but she's apparently had memory loss in the process.

[@Subfightr]

Unfortunately, that's all it takes. That FEELING, is real, and in some can overtake logic. I assume it's like people who do drugs and see God. Of course you saw god etc, you're on FREAKING HALLUCINOGENIC DRUGS IDIOT! Must be a hell of a feeling. I've had a dream that my dad was alive, as alive as could be, and when I awoke for a.BRIEF moment I felt it was true, then reality hit me, I didn't want it to be true but it is. I wonder if they have that moment, but they just run with it?

[@fujohnson8667]

£5 says you’ll be praying on your death bed. Atheists always fear death at the end. You are just scared of the moral structure it provides.

[@emailvonsour]

This always happens when Whites take on a pet-project model minority. They always turn around and show why they never belonged at the table in the first place. See: Candace Owens, Kanye West, Shannon Sharpe, OJ, Tiger Woods, Mike Tirico...

[@RubyNeumann]

So glad you hugged it out in the end. Awesome conversation... Thank you for sharing!

[@thistles]

This is so sad. Richard did a beautiful job of showing his friend compassion while refusing to cave to emotional manipulation. Thank you for holding the line while maintaining both integrity and humanity. ❤

[@MrRadialdrift]

So when he calls her belief system nonsense that is being a good friend is it? Attempting to pass on a level of intellectual superiority is manipulation. I guess when you have a bias towards someone, you ignore certain aspects.

[@thistles]

@@MrRadialdrift I've been listening to Ayaan for ages, as well. I'm not biased toward Richard over Ayaan. Telling a friend who is buying into nonsense that it's nonsense is showing respect. Be honest with your friends. Don't let them walk down a stupid path.

[@IslandArt61]

@@thistles Similarly said by Patton Oswalt. “You’ve gotta respect everyone’s beliefs." No, you don’t. That’s what gets us in trouble. Look, you have to acknowledge everyone’s beliefs, and then you have to reserve the right to go: "That is fucking stupid. Are you kidding me?" I acknowledge that you believe that, that’s great, but I’m not going to respect it.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@LarsGsanger]

He did evil!

[@this_alec]

Sad to not hear Buddhism mentioned in these contexts. Modern Buddhism is a (not the only) beautiful framework for finding a sense of spiritual meaning while maintaining solid grounding in rational reality. States such as compassion, selflessness, empathy, love are all accessible in the human experience, without the need for a God to answer for them.

[@AyaInoue-l3r]

❤

[@humbertsmith8864]

I would be very careful there with that generalization

[@humbertsmith8864]

So sad to see her intellectual bankruptcy

[@this_alec]

@@humbertsmith8864 Fair enough! There are obviously dark applications of Buddhist teachings. Religion tends to take something good and ruin it. I’m referring specifically to the modern, secular interpretations of ancient Buddhist philosophies. But I appreciate the warning! Appropriate to note.

[@EpicLemonMusic]

She is ridiculous. Absolute logical gobbledigook. Zero mention of the thousands of other religions including Deism which Richard would likely accept. She sucks and always has, but is still a good speaker on the dangers of Islamic society.

[@ratstrydom]

"I believe because I want to believe". Well there we have it.

[@ritalago2284]

Conditions ins't diferente for ateits.

[@ratstrydom]

@ritalago2284 we simply believe things we have evidence for and ignore the rest. No faith required.

[@petergeh9584]

Soon she'll just be another one of those crazy activists protesting against women's reproductive rights and separation of church-state. 👎

[@tomashultgren4117]

@@ratstrydom Do you believe in the "Selfish gene"?

[@ratstrydom]

@tomashultgren4117 I don't "believe" in it. "Believe" means accepting things as truth with no evidence just because an ancient book says so. I do however find it to be a compelling explanation that fits the available data.

[@Lord_Nordan]

It's amazing how quickly she has adopted the arguments of the same apologetics she used to oppose. Nothing new or enlightened, just the same old arguments.

[@Mushin367]

It’s shocking. What do you think happened to her?

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@Lord_Nordan]

@@Mushin367 I think she's responding to perceived political threats and believes her lifestyle will be more secure among the Christian elite.

[@ratdog6317]

​@@Mushin367 She says she was depressed and anxious, so she was probably in a VERY dark painful period of her life which made it so easy for christianity to prey on that & reel her in

[@SteveAgleron]

She just needed love when she was at her lowest ebb. Unfortunately a believer got to her first. I cannot believe someone of her intelligence could have been swayed by her yearning to feel better. Its a sad, sad state of affairs. I feel so very sad for her. She is clearly still not over her depression.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@uncoiledfish2561]

The coming of Islam to the west, is a major problem. I think that's her main motive.

[@andybotchwey4620]

I also feel sorry you because in your world everything thing is reduction isn't. Some of the most important and brilliant analyst in the world have seen the world beyond reductionism.

[@andrewashdown3541]

It's insulting to say 'she just needed love' - don't you think she' thought through that one? I'm guessing she wld answer 'God IS love'.

[@kingskaterers]

I think if you listened to her journey she sought help from many people, the last was a Christian and advised prayer, that's where her help came from. She tried alcohol for quite a while and denial of God but that didn't work either, now she has peace, bless her

[@TheGUY24]

I used to love watching her in debates, what a shame.

[@bobbart4198]

... " Different Plains of Perception " ... I honestly would have expected more from someone of Hirsi's intellect. And " Let's agree to disagree " ? ... that's a level of vapid disconnect that is beneath ANYONE who speaks out in a public venue and makes a part of their living at it .

[@Tony11442]

Perhaps she was never on the level of intellect we thought she was on.

[@Lopfff]

Totally

[@Lopfff]

@@Tony11442 I was thinking the same thing. It’s weird to hear the Fifth Horseman making such lame ass arguments she herself must have faced several times before. Of course we all know what happened: it’s her husband. You know how there’s that girl who hates country music, and then she gets a boyfriend who likes country music, and now she’s a fan

[@Tony11442]

@@Lopfff Yes absolutely. That's probably it.

[@I.Reckon]

@@Lopfff 🤣🤣🤣

[@powersend]

It’s a message of weakness fear and subordination

[@nathanbell6962]

Yes perfectly put. God will humble you

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@viiviiornitier]

We should start treating religions the same as addictions. She relapsed

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@juleslu8403]

that's actually a great analogy!

[@kentstallard6512]

Excellent analogy. It is an addiction of sorts.

[@Runconna]

Or changed grift? The Christian types she associates with in America are quite horrible.

[@domari9459]

It is actually an addiction in most cases if not all cases of human religious behavior. It is a drug that we've created to keep us apparently sane, but has the opposite effect as any other drug when you can't control the use, individually and collectively. It is nothing new. We've known this for thousands of years. I am pretty sure the thinkers or philosophers of ancient Egypt some 5000 years ago and Babilonians around the same era would've discovered that's what religion was. Socrates ended upsetting too many powerful politicians and ended up getting executed for trying to point out what religion is. Ancient Indians knew it during the time of Buddha and way way before Buddha. Karl Marx said it bluntly and managed to find some refuge in more liberal England. Try telling in public that the people who believes in and follow a religion are drug addicts, and you will meet the same fate as Socrates, one way or the other.

[@CelestialVenerableValinor]

When did atheism meant there's nothing to believe in?

[@karagi101]

It never has. There are countless things that one can believe in, that can give your life purpose and meaning. Sadly, she couldn’t find any or didn’t really try.

[@tgenov]

@@karagi101 What do you mean "she couldn't find any"? She found exactly what gives her life purpose and meaning - Christianity. She also found what didn't give her life any purpose or meaning - atheism.

[@karagi101]

@@tgenov Obviously I’m referring to things to believe in that are real and not imaginary.

[@tgenov]

@@karagi101 Obviously you continue to disregard the fact that morality (something we all believe in) is imaginary. We imagine a world without violence, without poverty, without ignorance, without oppression and slavery. We imagine a better world. And then we believe in the imagination. And then we make it happen. Because it’s not real. Yet.

[@tgenov]

@@karagi101 You are literally demonstrating the point of the total lack of purpose and meaning atheism offers. You want me to believe in real/material things? Ok. I believe in Jupiter. And the universe! And now what? Where do we go from here? How does this belief in real things set a course for the future?

[@weijieliao4890]

This is literally how fragile minds are drawn towards the supernatural and mythicism. Reality is too much for them.

[@gps9715]

It's all about fear and comfort.

[@joegordon-p6x]

yess

[@arthuroldale-ki2ev]

When you think that country`s are still being governed by religious Doctoring, it shows how primitive the human being still is, as though it has learnt, LICKITY SPLIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@jonathanspencer4834]

You perhaps could learn some humility from Christianity . It's an arrogant position you have in my view .

[@konstantinlozev2272]

Most (thinking) minds are fragile, at least in a period of their lives. And, depending on their background or current environment would seek and find different ways of navigating those hard times.

[@drvanhelsingz5133]

It’s interesting how’s she’s sounding exactly like the ppl she used to debate against. Even using the same tactics of accusing Dawkins of mocking Christians.

[@Ironsights51]

Sam Harris - “There are 3 ways of defending faith. You either argue that it is true, that it is useful, or you attack atheism as intolerant.” She obviously touches on the first one some, and the second one a lot, but to actually pull out the third one is just comical. Nothing Dawkins said should be seen as a mockery unless you’re backed into a corner with nothing else to say.

[@kookamunga2458]

Someone in the video is brainwashed. I not going to say who because my comment will probably be deleted.

[@PA-1000]

Did Richard Dawkins not do that?

[@kookamunga2458]

@@PA-1000 The woman is a traumatized and brainwashed victim of religion. She drops one religion and tries on a new one as if she were trying out a new hat . Richard is neither of those things .

[@Justice55339h]

He does mock..hello

[@brandonbee3956]

In a nutshell she said: I can’t deal with reality therefore I chose to believe in comforting lies despite all evidence to the contrary

[@evr67bb]

But she's also infected by the ultra conservative right. Very scary.

[@Wildrover82]

There is no evidence that there isn't a god, but there's no evidence that their is either...

[@evr67bb]

@@Wildrover82 there is no evidence that there isn't a flaberdeefloep

[@Wildrover82]

@@evr67bb true.

[@seanoconnor5311]

@@evr67bb Our civilisation isn't falling over one generation after ceasing belief in a flabberdeefloep

[@michal88gno]

Good to have you sir Richard here on YT channel and thank you for sharing all of these materials. Thank you again also for „Gods delusion” which awaked me 6 years ago…

[@HGALAXIES]

This woman now can be used as the best example of being religious! When you get to your typical level of humanity: general weakness in all levels, anything that takes you out of that weak spot, it becomes your choice of hanging on to! Being fully scientific and objective needs a super strong character and personality and brain, something that she and most of us lack!!!

[@michael-yf8js]

Well put. The sad truth.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@VaughanMcCue]

She may have had it. She mentioned Chesterton - People will fall for anything.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@MarianneHMiettinen]

Respect for Richard taking so much care on this discussion

[@danstracner9053]

This lady is “wandering in mazes lost” (to quote Milton). Dawkins’ position is clear, even his adherence to “cultural Christianity” because of the societal and artistic benefits it affords. Her view boils down to: Religion is comforting, so it must be good. She implies that people who don’t accept religious myths and stories are not capable of finding such comfort. That is such a simplistic, condescending attitude. Rational secular humanism offers comfort, compassion, inspiration and creativity without requiring belief in obvious falsehoods or wallowing in misleading emotional excesses.

[@zzybaloobah3095]

And Dawkins claim is (largely) religion is bad so it must be false. The existence (or non-existence) of God, like "life after death" is not something that can be settled within science.

[@lornasalzman4565]

The most inspiring, comforting condition for humans is to expand the experience of the natural miracles of Nature. Once we comprehend the beauty, mystery and benefits of learning about and immersing ourselves in the extraordinary miracle of evolution and ecology, our brains and emotions will become our faith and a source of worship based on science, not on personal conversions or healing of our emotional and psychological problem that can only be solved by people, not sermons or holy books. Our planetary systems are authoritative systems and we defy them at risk of extinction.

[@lizzieh5284]

Religion isnt a cure for anxiety and depression. It often is the cause of it.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

For some people, religion lowers the level of anxiety. Not all religions are the same. Buddhism is not as violent as Islam.

[@mrmaat]

Ayaan has trauma from a lifetime of abuse from Islam. This seems to be a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

[@bendelwijnen6557]

​@Seekthetruth3000 Perhaps not but it's happy to keep its community in perpetual servitude nonetheless.

[@seanoconnor5311]

Social science shows that Christians tend to be happier on every metric than non believers. It's taken almost for granted at this point. Google 'Christianity and happiness', there's no shortage of studies, there's several a year. They also have more sex and higher sexual satisfaction, including (especially, even) women.

[@cevcena6692]

​@@mrmaat??? How, she didn't return to Islam. She went to a religion that Islam hates, that isn't Stockholm syndrome at all

God bless you Ayaan, Richard and everyone reading this comment! :) Very nice conversation.

[@ratdog6317]

May Osiris bless you too ❤❤❤

[@josephdaniel6106]

Dawkins is completely floored by this young Christian woman.

[@noelblackwell1908]

She is clearly on a journey here, just like all of us. I think it’s really brave of her that she isn’t hiding where she is on that journey. As she continues searching, if she doesn’t stop here, she will eventually end up somewhere else. Good for her fur speaking her truth. I just hope she keep going. Don’t stop here!

[@momo19991]

What type of psychiatrist would say you have “spiritual bankruptcy “? I don’t think that is even medically ethical or allowed.

[@MrCanis4]

Is that like “losing money you don't have?”

[@ratstrydom]

Probably a Christian counselor.

[@momo19991]

@@ratstrydom She said “psychiatrist”! That is an MD in the US.

[@xavierowino]

But she says she saw many therapists and nothing worked. But with her last therapist, things finally worked. It only worked because she tried the advice. How can you argue with that?

[@momo19991]

@@xavierowinoBecause psychiatrists are medical doctors in the United States and such a statement is unthinkable by them and against their code of ethics.

[@karelvandervelden8819]

There is no moral vacuum in atheisme. Sense of morality is fed by evolving insights.

[@thomasgilson6206]

So true

[@lilithlevaykjeldahl5257]

Too true. I am highly offended by the notion that atheism has no morality. 😮

[@mauimeow6797]

How do you explain what is happening among student protestors on university campuses?

[@Taurex]

@@mauimeow6797The Israel/Palestine protests? What about it? You’re not implying that all those protestors are atheists surely? But even if that was the case you’ll still have to explain the link you seem to be implying between atheism and the protests. Also can you be more specific? Are you talking about the protestors who support Hamas?

[@jasondads9509]

The point is that there is no set of moral values inherent in atheism, unlike in religion where they are more enforced. Since there is no inherent moral structure, its easier to adopt another when it presents it self. Thats the crux of her one of her arguments. Moral vacuum doesn't mean everyone is a terrible person.

[@tobis.4037]

"I had a personal crisis" - tells you all you need to know...

[@tomashultgren4117]

Which is?...

[@cevcena6692]

​@@tomashultgren4117Nothing. The comment is probably written from an objectivist position, which would dismiss any subjective evidence for religion. But even then, it's misapplied because a subjective perspective doesn't dismiss what could be an objective account of what happened

[@vladasvetlakova5597]

@@tomashultgren4117people in crisis do not act or think logically.

[@tomashultgren4117]

@@vladasvetlakova5597 A personal crisis can open up new perspectives. No one acts or thinks logically anyway. It's an illusion

[@deusdedit9-]

Ayaan thinks Christianity is the best deterrent against Islam. That's what was most apparent here.

[@bettymofokeng3404]

I applause Iyaan for the confidence of speaking and standing for what you believe, a personal encounter with Jesus never leave a person the same, Iyaan is a new creature in Christ, she is not the same one Richard knows

[@garyluciani1082]

She said at the beginning she had no personal encounter. She said more than once she chose to believe in Christianity which implies a conscious choice; and said that choice saved her from suicidal depression. It was not a conversion due to a personal encounter. I have no problem with someone believing in Christianity if it offers them some kind of comfort.

[@DrSabriBebawi]

Ayaan, this idea that atheism creates a void that needs to be filled is a strange one; that void you care about should be filled with science, desire for knowledge, exploration, and decisions like this one.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@jasondads9509]

Her argument seems to be that people haven't done that, so we should fill it with Christianity otherwise others might fill it with something worse

[@thelifeandtimesofjames4273]

Key word in your statement: ‘should’. I feel it was the full and proper educations of the new atheists that led them to believe that once atheism took a rough hold (as I’d argue it has) that those left in the void would fill it with that same top level education. This did not happen.

[@deonlouw3863]

Yes, like not being able to define what a woman is 😂

[@liberalegypt]

I am ex-Muslim from the Middle East. I understand Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s feelings. I will not talk about depression and spiritual bankruptcy, as it is her personal experience. But I ask a question to fans of Richard Dawkins, because they are rational people like me and him Is there a competitor to Islam that can be repelled except Christianity? I literally do not find anyone who challenges Islam except Christians who take their religion seriously As for secular Christians and atheists, most of them fall into side conflicts that have nothing to do with the danger of Islam to the world. Rather, we sometimes find alliances with Muslims in internal electoral and other conflicts. The Four Horsemen were aware of the danger of Islam...but most of the more secular movements accuse the Four Horsemen of Islamophobia. Is it a coincidence that we find that only the far right declares its hostility to Islam?

[@suebard7]

Did you mean to ask, "Is there a competitor to Islam that can repel it other than Christianity?" If so, I would say no.

[@nicholasmacdonald1]

@@suebard7 I would say that Hindutva and Chinese “Communism” are pretty hefty anti-Islamic ideologies (the Chinese would not consider themselves anti-Islamic, but the Islam they tolerate is a very “neutered” one), and together they have an awful lot of adherents - but neither is a solution for the western world, for obvious reasons.

[@liberalegypt]

@@suebard7 yea I mean that 👍🏻

[@ratdog6317]

Christianity can bring some short term victories but can never ultimately repel it because Islam and Christianity are two branches of the same Abrahamic tree. You cannot defeat Thing Number One using Thing Number One 2.0, that simply does not work. Thats like trying to cure a drug addiction by giving the addict a slightly altered version of the same drug, sure it might kill them slower & less painfully than the original drug, but ultimately it will still kill them and that's where the problem lies

[@Lance-yl5sz]

Ayaan has thrown out critical thinking and replaced it with personal feelings.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@zwerko]

She was never a champion of that discipline anyway, if we're being honest.

[@jasondads9509]

Most people don't, which is basically her argument why atheism/enlightened rationality doesn't work

[@FoJ-REAPP]

There's nothing to think about criticality to believe in atheism. It's rather the easy way out. It's about constantly convincing yourself that there's nothing there to believe. To say she's thrown out critical thinking is to say she's become idiot. But I defer. A famous writer once wrote, over 2500 years ago, that, "Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." Between one that is described as an idiot because she believes in God, and one that describes him/herself as intelligent because he/she believes there's no God, I'll choose the so-called idiot because she's the one that with critical thinking, courage and sincerity has been able to look deeper into the waters confusion and has been able to see the domain of the truth and has has embraced it. The so-called intelligent ones are either not able to look deeper because there's so much confusion in them, or their insincerity and self-indulgence wouldn't allow them be honest with the truth. Imagine Dawkins becoming Christian. Are you still going to say he's also thrown out critical thinking? In other words, you mean to say, people like Francis Collins and Sir Francis Bacon all threw out critical thinking. Keep tickling yourself just to have a smile. Keep denying truth just to make yourself happy!

[@jasondads9509]

@@FoJ-REAPP the defualt should be non-existance as that requires thes least amount of assumptions..

[@emka198]

She may have been under influence of her therapist. A therapist has tremendous power over clients

[@richardvoyer5697]

So you need two of them so one watches the other and the other watches the one😅

[@BlakeStackman]

​@@richardvoyer5697an observer who watches the observer...but who then watches the observer's observer, and so on? 🤔 Haha. Very Alan Watts. I'm surprised that therapist can get away with imprinting their own personal ideologies onto their clients.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@richardvoyer5697]

@BlakeStackman ; you're right, it does sound very much like Alan Watts. Wasn't intentional.

[@arthuroldale-ki2ev]

When I was a boy (70 years ago) I asked my father about the religion I was having forced on me at school, he said, " Its nonsense lad !" A wise man my dear old Dad!!!!!!!

[@joegordon-p6x]

he should have taken you out of that Stupid school, that would have been WISE

[@MSA-uj7cp]

Wow! you were convinced easy lad!!!!! Simply based on what your dad said??? I guess atheists just listen to other people's opinions rather than investigating? that figures.

[@ali72044]

a wise man your dear old dad

[@dheerajbhardwaj986]

Really wise indeed

[@twnkltoesbrad]

This is sad ur dad wasn’t wise he was ignorant and probably didn’t like it because he was forced to be taught it too Jesus loves you

[@clorofilaazul]

I'm so glad she wasn't the 5th horseman. One could say that "the Lord works in mysterious ways" 🤣 Not having her with Sam, Christopher, Richard and Dan in that famous encounter was quite a job on God's part.

[@nalbizo2]

I never want to hear her mentioned in the same breath as the Four Horsemen.

[@bakuljavadekar6767]

Ayan seems more confused now than she was earlier!

[@Goettel]

I feel she's still a victim of early indoctrination, which after abandoning Islam has left a "god size hole" in her that's just begging to be filled. When vulnerable, it's hard to resist giving yourself over to anything that provides relief.

[@Mushin367]

Bro, she literally seems like she hit her head and is not smart anymore.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@Ironsights51]

It’s honestly sad. I don’t think Christians see this video the same way we do… she genuinely seems weak here. She talks like somebody who has completely lost, like a captured hostage saying what she thinks she has to say to stay alive. She says she’s not, and that’s she’s stronger and happier now, and she sounds absolutely ridiculous in the process. I feel for her, this is a very small tragedy.

[@fidelemusangile743]

​@@Ironsights51 Yeah that's the way to enlightenment and inner peace. You can be proud and arrogant but miserable inside or be humble and meek but with peace within.

[@tommyvictorbuch6960]

"Faith claims are all equally rotten, false, dishonest, corrupt, humourless and dangerous." - Christopher Hitchens -

[@gideondavid30]

You need Jesus.

[@tommyvictorbuch6960]

@@gideondavid30 no I don't. And nor do you.

[@abdigah5364]

I am Somali with Muslim background and I believe that while Islam , from its first days to the present is ideology based mainly threats and division of mankind while Christianity , as a relgion preaches peace and love . Ayan Hirsi courageously exposes many truths

[@viiviiornitier]

Richard came to talk to equal-level colleague, and had to discuss a child-like arguments. He is looking at her with disbelief, his face says it all

[@Rin0Kaka]

Yes...he was very gentle with her.

[@LarsGsanger]

He want’s to be Satan!

[@troubadour1562]

I'm glad she feels better about herself and if she wants to attribute that to Christianity, go for it. Personally I think she sounds silly and embarrassed trying and struggling to explain this to her once mentor.

[@VesnaVK]

I'm saddened that retreating into meaninglessness is what it took for her to feel better about herself.

[@DrSabriBebawi]

"All religions are false" is the most truthful statement.

[@richardvoyer5697]

Yes and I don't know is also a good answer instead of pretending knowing.

[@mauimeow6797]

True. But it is also true that most people don't want to hear that. Good luck with "trying harder". If the west continues trying secular humanism harder islam will win. In the end islam will get rid of the woke useful idiots.

[@DrSabriBebawi]

@user-ow4oj1wk2o In that sense, you are correct.

[@symmetrie_bruch]

@user-ow4oj1wk2o nobody said relgions are not real. you seem to deliberatly miss the point there. if i say the idea that a god exist is false i don´t say that idea is not real, i say it´s false.

[@emmanuelpeter8288]

Your statement is relative, not absolute truth. If you know that human knowledge is limited, then it is not right to say religions are false.

[@peoplespeace]

Would have been fun if Richard had said that he "choses" to believe that Ayaan is a Christian! 😂

[@auturgicflosculator2183]

Moses, supposes, his toeses, are roses, Moses, supposes, erroneously!

[@michaelaskari9266]

It's just astounding how someone like Ali can change so drastically and become utterly ridiculous. It's truly unbelievable, a complete and utter shock.

[@FedericaGalli89]

Maybe it's just grifting?

[@mariusmihai918]

I dont see anything ridiculous in her stands

[@Arjmm]

She was always utterly ridiculous

[@hhumca]

time will tell, maybe she is going through a tough period.

[@mohammadtajabadi]

Yeah she makes no sense! This was really hard to watch!

[@MyNameIsThe_Sun]

My God, she's gone off the rocker

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@VaughanMcCue]

Her god rocks!

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@drvanhelsingz5133]

She keeps avoiding the question

[@blackwolfe638]

because she knows what a farce she is supporting for very selfish broken reasons.

[@thekennethofoz3594]

I noticed that too. Prof. Dawkins asked some very straightforward, simple questions ... do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin? do you believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead? ... she just talked around them, no real answer. She is following the same paths that religious apologists have followed for a long time. It's sad. It's sad that she has been through some terrible emotional times, and I wish her well, and I hope she has a much better future, but I don't think her current path will serve her well.

[@toniwetteroth4261]

That is very typical of theist I am about a third of the way through and I don't feel that she is being pressured to answer the questions, but this is very typical

[@Zurealz]

And it's Richard who's "mocking" her beliefs. JFC.

[@maxxam3590]

​@@RenzunShark"Wrong" how?

[@bennjmin]

IT SEEMS THAT LOTS of the commentators have no idea how to deal with Ayaan's position other than offering their very 'woke' kind of patronizing pseudo-hindsight (kind of "she can't be right because it clashes with my own mindset"). I think it might even be somewhat embarrassing for Mr. Dawkins too, because frankly, while he said some silly things it was often tongue-in-cheek and not so much patronizing. I liked that attitude. Ayaan was very polite too. Even while, in the end, she said something painful - but formulating it carefully - that radical atheism too may have contributed to woke culture by abandoning Christian values in the form of Christian culture. Especially putting it at the same level as Islam, while in reality Christianity is a complex religion which allows for social justice yet without obliterating things like the natural man/woman distinction, as the radical leftist progressives do (who by the way pride in their own, distinctively leftist form of atheism). Ayaan had every reason to say that, as she (and none of the other 'new atheists') knew Islam and Islamism from the inside out. Yet she was showing much courtesy towards Mr. Dawkins, who she still called her mentor. She was obviously also very aware that she had herself also contributed to this problem - this she acknowledged honestly and fully. *** What I also admire in Ayaan is how wisdom and humbleness go together with her rational-empiricist view of the world. Her faith is largely a rational matter (something many commentators clearly leaves stumped - they never heard of such a thing, even while this is obvious for many other rational people). To 'choose' for Christian faith the way she does - Christianity in its most evolved, liberal form (as Tom Holland would say - as Christianity is not a static recital like the Koran) is similar to choosing to be part of one's local culture: regardless of the fact that culture too is a human construction, such a choice is based on seeing its value and taking part in it, taking part in the human condition. A rational person does not necessarily deny modern culture, which is, in the West, the product of a long development of thought, and intrinsically connected with the religion that was part of it for 2000 years. One may indeed decide that taking a part in it (believing in it) is how this culture and its Christian underpinnings can be further pushed towards modernity. And that the place of science is not to overthrow culture or religion, but to improve our understanding of the material world in which we live - a different subject.

[@jenna2431]

She'll get more and better paying speaking invites as a "Christian".

[@Mauro_Veliz]

She's become a grifter once she joined PragerU.

[@thekennethofoz3594]

I am disappointed to see Ms. Ali's "conversion", but there is no reason to use ad-hominem attacks to discredit her. I take what she says as an honest change of opinion, and will do so until there is some definite evidence otherwise. As the saying goes, don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes. [ And, to finish the joke, because then they'll be a mile away from you, and you have their shoes 🙂

[@Tony11442]

That's what she's doing here.

[@ikhraamosman4479]

That is what she is doing. All for money and publicity. Dawkins was too kind to her.

[@petethepeg2]

Are you a Muslim ?

[@agneswanjau559]

This lady is a great philosopher. She is also calm and with high intelligent.

[@christianshaw155]

A very interesting conversation and done with genuine warmth and mutual respect. I’m sorry that many of those commenting don’t seem to be able to accept that a highly intelligent person can have an experience of connection with a higher power, and in Christianity find a rational clarity which provides not only an inner peace but also an intellectually satisfying worldview. Someone commented that no-one ever reasons their way into Christianity - C S Lewis’ journey to Christian faith is worth reading about - but many millions over many centuries could testify that it has been an ongoing experience of connection with their creator which has ultimately cemented their faith.

[@Jay-ate-a-bug]

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

[@dezurniprovokator373]

Brilliant as a atheist, brilliant as a Christian !

[@CosmicTeapot]

Here's the TL;DR for anyone who might not have time for the full hour: Ayaan essentially went belief shopping, and picked Christianity as a faith à la carte, because she likes it the best. It was the best fit for her preexisting world views, and weapon to fight against her personal bogeymans. She spends the hour dodging Dawkins's questions and reformulating this same exact thing in 85 different variations.

[@memoryhero]

thx for the recap. i am exactly who dis would be for. i've known (about) Ayaan since the old days of the New Atheists and have been curious as to what all this conversion talk could possibly be about. i don't have the hour, but your summary was just about perfect. thx for putting it together. would be interested what Hitch would say to her now.

[@rabbitcaroline666]

Teach the younger generation how to think for themselves. Don`t fill their heads with fiction.

[@cynicalsayonara7169]

Atheist here. I agree with Ayaan. If you have any desire to save the western world, get on team Christianity. We are like a third party that will never win.

[@ubcphysicsyangbo]

Ayaan sounds like a sensitive millennial or gen-Z, unable to deal with her feelings, and have to resort to mumbo-jumbo to make her feel better, it’s really rather sad.

[@gideondavid30]

PEOPLE will suffer in this life. You say it is mere feelings, but when you lose a child or become crippled or become terminally ill, you will seek comfort and meaning. Athiesm has nothing to offer people in these conditions.

[@fekinel]

She's lost her marbles .. 🤕

[@markaurelius61]

And yet she is able to analyse the current situation of western progressives and academics quite incisively.

[@Tony11442]

She never had as much marbles as we thought.

[@Tony11442]

Or she's getting paid well.

[@xSteve1983x]

@@markaurelius61but still believes in Zombie Jesus and Eve being made from Adam’s rib.

[@markaurelius61]

@@xSteve1983x So? If you are an atheist you have to believe somehow the universe is just coincidentally designed to allow for complex chemistry, and that somehow the first cell just sort of shook itself into the right configuration.

[@janem5900]

Something not quite right is going on with Ayaan. Her recently acquired belief in a Christian god relies on cherry picking an ancient tome and ignoring the ongoing harm caused by Christianity. She asserts the existence of a god despite a total lack of evidence. Her story exposes a modern day sacrifice of rationality on the altar of credulity. Ayaan: "faith offers something.... tangible". No it doesn't. The bible states: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." The exact opposite to the meaning of "tangible". Richard Dawkins remains the trusted voice of honesty and reason. Ayaan's new found belief has eroded her integrity. In this debate she waffles and finds it difficult to explain herself. This is in contrast to her previous strong and articulate presentations prior to her conversion. Her claim that a belief in the unevidenced supernatural dimension, which is shared by Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus etc fills a vacuum is nonsensical. The fact religions makes truth claims that they cannot verify epitomises a "moral vacuum". The bible is a work of fiction about a genocidal maniacal god. Ayaan is disingenuous in her selective interpretation. The biblical character of Jesus was an emotional blackmailing control freak. Jesus is quoted in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Yet Christians try to dichotomise the Old and New Testaments. Matthew 10: 34 He is also quoted as saying: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." The multiple interpretations applied by Christians to these verses correlates to the 30 odd thousand Christian sects/cults. C'mon Ayaan - free your mind of the virulent impacts of religion. Steven Weinberg - 'With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.'

[@carrieohio]

Listen to what Dawkins says about Christianity already having gone through its main psycho phase hundreds of years ago, and how that means it's actually more advanced for having done that. He's saying it is a bulwark against worse faiths. Ali admits she was wrong to equate islam and Christianity for being equally awful. I'm glad she made that decision, because it is based on onservable evidence. Dawkins admits it's preferable. He is unable to acknowledge or does not believe that the reformation and softening of the Christian church through the years is linked with the enlightenment of Western culture, but she is right about that. IMO

[@xavierowino]

Get over it. She found atheism to be spirituality bankrupt.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@deborahcadabra-w5z]

@Xavier Roweno no, the psychiatrist told her she was spiritually bankrupt, extremely unethical and dangerous for any therapist to say to somebody at rock bottom. Love and support were needed, understanding, not religion.

[@efsbass]

@@xavierowinolol they’re so butt hurt 😂

[@michael-yf8js]

“When you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy, ask yourself only what are the facts and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted either by what you wish to believe, or by what you think would have beneficent social effects if it were believed. But look only, and solely, at what are the facts” - Bertrand Russell

[@joelonsdale]

Thoroughly enjoyable video as always!

[@michaelbigelow412]

It’s sad that her story is so often repeated. In a time of self loathing, depression and emptiness, a person turns to magical beliefs because they feel good. A quote from Carl Sagan kept blasting in my mind as I watched this. “Unpleasant truth is better than delightful fantasy.” Ayaan has chosen the delightful fantasy.

[@rabbitcaroline666]

Or ignorance is bliss.

[@oneplusoneequalstwo1523]

We’re all stupid. Some of us are just not as stupid as others.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@ngwee1]

At 47:30, Richard was like "How can you applaud that?" reminding me of one of his earlier appearance on another show. I sincerely hope her present condition is only temporary, and that she and Richard remain great friends.

[@raubhautz6281]

That was pitifully sad to listen to. I cannot judge whether she is just lying or not. However, all the signs are there for those who need a crutch: Clinically depressed, avoiding answering the questions, the same dogmatic rhetoric, and then the statement(s), "...I choose to believe..." It must have been a very dark and sad situation for her, I wish her well in her endeavors.

[@MichaelBurau]

„Christianity is obsessed with love“ Yes, and there is no hate like Christian love.

[@seanoconnor5311]

Weird that she didn't need a bodyguard against Christians then....

[@MichaelBurau]

@@seanoconnor5311 Because Bodyguards usually protect you from physical harm, not from mental harm.

[@seanoconnor5311]

@@MichaelBurau Hahahaha no one ever suffered mental harm from having continuous organised efforts to murder them on the street for 20 years! Those Christians were so hateful with their letters that she got a positive impression! That's waaaay worse!

[@bobbart4198]

... To say that " There is SOMETHING, rather than NOTHING " may indeed be as valid as the scientific principles that are based upon some very different concepts of " Something " and " Nothing " - BUT how does that lead to not only Monotheism, but a very specific version of Monotheism ? ... That requires a conscious choice, and a rather emotional & personal one. And THAT is where the REAL illogical stuff comes in ...

[@nickvolkert3450]

Everyone keeps talking about the “moral vacuum”, and how young people are “lost” today. I don’t feel that or see it around me at all.. I’m a young person who feels utterly set free by conducting my own examinations of morality instead of letting a holy book do it for me.

[@lacommedia41]

Interesting and helpful. In relation to contemporary moral thought it is interesting to note that little reference is made to the literature of the ancient Greeks, Plato in particular, and the root contribution such thought/philosophy made to the fabric of our modern culture.

[@harrybusby3487]

God bless this woman! 🙏♥️

[@shahidmiah917]

Ayaan spent the whole discussion attacking Islam, instead of tackling Atheism. Did she forget she came to talk to Dawkins?

[@jit11989]

i dont know who she is but it was very painful to watch.. whatever she says doesnt make any sense. and she doesnt give straight answer to anything.. was only able to watch for 25 minutes

[@aroemaliuged4776]

She is a perfectionist in Lies A Muslim woman that chooses lies when it suits her narrative I choose truth It doesn’t matter what religion or gender or country

[@Seekthetruth3000]

She is an ex-Muslim and is telling the truth.

[@sebdhaese]

This seems to me to be more political, masquerading as real. As if she is proposing "nicotine gum" to muslims rather than a harsh stop.

[@rabbitcaroline666]

Everyone has to create their own meaning. It doesn`t come from the outside.

[@lalo4807]

Sounds like she needs money and decided that the best way to reached the goal is to write a book

[@petethepeg2]

Like Richard ?

[@thelifeandtimesofjames4273]

That’s a little cold no?

[@BernyBanton]

I was an atheist my whole life, and I regret it...

[@mna8936]

As an Iranian x-muslim i don't like it when people try to differ between islam and islamisim. They Are The Same. I'm combining my other comments under this one. (because it got more likes :) __________________________________ The Problem with western culture is not Humanism, Atheism, Secular moral philosophy, Critical thinking etc. The problem is 1. poor and broken education system. 2. Infiltration of enemy propaganda Cyber weapons like TikTok and such. 3. The flood of muslim migration without a well thought integration plan. 4. And most importantly, the stupid and mostly corrupt politicians witch make all the above possible. (Some parts of the basic political systems in west are old and behind the time and need change, so the politicians can be forced to do good and don't get corrupt) ___________________________________ About life after death (soul) as Richard himself said: "We have an evolved brain which works by nerve impulses and when that decays what could possibly be left?" And about consciousness. How about it? Why is she asking this? If it is to be explained, it's on her to tell us How it could be related to god?!! specially pacifically Christianity? You can't just throw a word out and expect people to buy your extraordinary claims. 😂 Mind(consciousness) is the product of our brain. It's very well established and known. Why is it so hard for people to accept the conclusion of experiments? And why do they give this much credibility to baseless claims witch there's no evidence for? Why? ____________________________________ I didn't like how she tried multiple times to portrait Richard as an arrogant mucker. That was a cheap tactic. ____________________________________ It would've been preferable if Richard used 'fighting a poison with another poison' at the end. But a religious anti vaxxer is funnier.

[@MrCanis4]

Thank you for your statement. I appreciate that.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Islamists are Muslims who take Islam seriously.

[@Roman-v9f9w]

no Islam is by far the baddest.its touching every parts of life on the way it's controlling mechanism is so unthinkable

[@ifrazali3052]

​@@Roman-v9f9wChristianity used to be worse than that.

[@ifrazali3052]

I am from Pakistan and I won't consider myself a Muslim either. Your experience to Equate Islam and Islamism is more a product of your country (Iran) than a universal and historical fact. Islam like any other Religion e.g Christianity seeks converts and protection but unlike other religions it has a clause that explicitly bars Muslims from forcing people to convert. There is no religious basis for Islamism just like there is no basis for Chritian-ism. Although it's Adherents in past like any other empire has used it for conquest and establish superiority over others. Phenomenon of Islamism is more complicated with Economic, Colonial and political undercurrents and simply equating it with the religion doesn't do justice when you realize who is behind wars in Middle east and who was financially supporting Fanatics against soviets.

[@Wonbasa]

I love listening Prof. Richard Dawkins' debate with Prof. John Lenox, I wish I could meet these two great personalities face to face oneday.

[@FilipeBrasAlmeida]

Rational secular humanism was born from a fortunate rediscovery and reaffirmation of classical Greek thinking from under the hood of centuries of Christian obscurantism. Christianity left to its own devices, burned the European continent to a crisp, several times over.

[@thomasgilson6206]

I was always vaguely aware that Ayaan was not entirely comfortable calling herself an Atheist.

[@xavierowino]

Great. So you are a mind reader?

[@jasondads9509]

Nor through this conversation does she seem to be feel comfortable about being a Christian

[@zMarcusHD]

seems like she went through a traumatic experience with her depression. whatever spiritual development she did clearly helped her, but she could have just as easily been presented with a different flavour of religion, like Buddhism or Hinduism, and misinterpreted that specific religion as the cause of her miraculous recovery instead of clearly just correlating it with what by chance happened to be on the table in front of her at that time - Christianity. she's no longer engaging in any rational lines of thinking in her answers. like all Christian's, when faced with basic questions that require a logical answer, they pull out the ultimate get out of jail card - faith. in her case this is described as a different framework of thinking about reality that has arisen from her subjective experience of overcoming what seemed like an impossible obstacle. This just puts up a wall against any interrogation or criticism that says: I can't provide a rational explanation for my beliefs; It just feels good and it takes precedence over any kind of grounded logic, because if only you knew how powerful my feelings were, you would understand why logic is now secondarily important to me on this matter. There's no other matter in life where something of such consequence and significance could acceptably be explained by just having strong feelings. It may seem reductive to say her experience of what she's dressing up as a new framework of conscious understanding that has appeared to her so powerfully that it has taken precedence over her rational lines of thought, as just strong feelings, but that's exactly what they are: strong feelings that haven't been fully investigated, and instead have been filled up with the convenient benefits of Christianity which justify and empower these kinds of feelings and experiences of strong spiritual connection to life and it's beauty. And really as a former new atheist she should know how Christianity really isn't the best exploration of that anyway.

[@aimerw]

It comes across to me that Ayaan is indeed a political and cultural Christian, who is willing to sacrifice integrity in truth in order to fight off Islam in the most successful way she foresees. To this end, she will force herself to believe in 70% of the nonsense in order to come off as a stronger advocate. I do feel that if Islam was to disappear over night then Ayaan would very well stop advocating for Christanity, unless she felt it was still needed to stop a return of Islam. The conversation starting around 40 minutes in about a psychological spiritual void forming in Western societies that Islamists are then taking advantage off, I do agree with Ayaan in part. Being rational and seeing things for the truth rather than for comfort is a struggle - a struggle many people do not wish for. Yet, people are prideful and wish to look confident. As such, many people will take an easier explanation that has local mob support so that they can easily bypass the struggle of thinking rationally while not looking incompetent - no one wants the be village idiot. Ayaan's solution is to fill that with Christanity instead of Islam, which Dawkins agrees is a better outcome between the two. Ideally, as Dawkins has mentioned, the person would fill that instead with rationality - however, this is likely not a one-fits-all solution. If a child asks their father difficult questions, if the father is not willing to educate themselves and apply rational thought to those questions then the father either has a choice of looking like they have no answers or giving that child false answers that require a lot less work on their part. "Father, how does....?" "Son, God made it that way" "Father, why do we...? "Son, God knows what is best", and so. The question that is being asked here is 'How do we deal with people taking an easy way out that is ultimately quite harmful to society?'. The answer is likely to provide an alternative that is just as easy (or more) while not being [as] harmful - which, is where Ayaan feels she has the answer with Christianity. I think us Athiests have to find a better answer.

[@robertlee4596]

I really enjoyed this discussion. To me, it is really important to understand that there are people with various abilities and intelligence. Some people, like Richard are able to understand evidence and the lack of evidence in religion. However, I believe religions were created because consciousness allows people to foresee their death and to fear death. If people are not capable of accepting death, then religion can give comfort. I agree with Ayaan that Islamism is dangerous and can fill a void if atheism does not adequately fill the void. Truth is a great thing, but there is a place for little white lies. If your wife asks if she looks good in a new dress and the truth is she does not, do you say the truth. Truth might not always be the right answer.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Richard bring who have sent forth! Who's TIME? I'LL WAIT RIGHT HERE!

[@Rinsii-y6k]

Wonderful listening to the various points of view but Richard is without a doubt in the correct frame of mind. I feel sorry Ali had to feel so low for so long that she needed some outside force to say the old "pray on it"

[@stevehenderson1248]

...also, if you lack meaning and purpose in your life, maybe try to change your circumstances before turning to religion?

[@Alwaysdoubt100]

All religions are nonsensical, if a persona choose to believe or follow a religion then he is believing in a nonsense by option.

[@gideondavid30]

Athiesm is also nonsensical. Nothing created everything and that is more believable than intelligent design? Are you kidding me? It takes more faith to be an athiest.

[@Alwaysdoubt100]

@@gideondavid30 who told you atheists believe in created things? Your sentence of "atheists believes nothing created everything" is also nonsensical. Atheists dont believe things were created, they believe things evolved following what Nature provides.

[@ALeaud]

I disagree with Ayaan completely.... but I totally get her point about how to fight against the Islamic-Woke alliance. I wish there was another way and I fear she might be right.

[@robinbeers6689]

There is no such alliance.

[@ALeaud]

@@robinbeers6689 Yes, there is. You clearly haven't been around woke leftists to see there absolutely it. I'm here in Canada and our most left-wing party is full of people who engage in genocide denial, cover for communist regimes like Cuba and call for the destruction of Israel while chanting Islamic slogans.

[@nicholasmacdonald1]

@@robinbeers6689 I’d describe it more as “opportunism” than “alliance”.

[@robinbeers6689]

@@nicholasmacdonald1 I'd describe it as a few mis-informed kids on college campuses wanting to feel like it is the 60s and they stand for something.

[@FilipeBrasAlmeida]

This isn't Ayaan's first step toward embracing lunacy: she collaborated with Geert Wilders and married Niall Ferguson.

[@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084]

I'm at the 21 min point and she has just been repeatedly saying ''I choose to believe this'' etc, which gets on my nervers as i'm sure it does others, because belief IS NOT subject to the will. That's called Doxastic Volunteerism, and it's absolutely absurd, I hope Dawkins pulls her up on it.