Richard Dawkins vs. Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Political Christian or Truly a Christian?

I will be on tour of North America, UK & EU talking about my latest book, religion, life on earth and beyond. I will be joined on stage by a range of friends and foes on stage. The events will include a Q&A and a limited meet-and-greet. You can get your tickets here: richarddawkinstour.com/
#richarddawkins #richarddawkinstour
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Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a hero, a staunch fighter against the violent intolerance and bossy control freakery of Islamism. She is also a personal friend of whom I am very fond. When she recently announced her conversion to Christianity, I assumed that she must be no more than a political Christian, regarding Christianity as a bulwark against Islam. I have some sympathy with the view that if you must have a religion at all, Christianity is hugely better than the leading alternative. In Hilaire Belloc’s words, “Always keep a-hold of Nurse for fear of finding something worse.”
I agreed to have a public conversation with her in New York, in which I was all prepared to emphasize the distinction between a political Christian and a true believing Christian, who actually thinks Jesus was born of a virgin and rose from the dead. I think the distinction is a really important one. I don’t think a political Christian is a real Christian, any more than the kind of cultural Christian I am myself.
When we met on the stage at the Dissident Dialogues meeting in New York, I was wrongfooted when Ayaan began with a personal statement which seemed to suggest that she really is a believing Christian, not just a political Christian. Well, her form of words was “I choose to believe.” I’m not sure what to make of that. Anyways, see what you think; here is the recording of our New York meeting.
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[@poetryofreality]

I will be on tour of North America, UK & EU talking about my latest book, religion, life on earth and beyond. I will be joined on stage by a range of friends and foes on stage. The events will include a Q&A and a limited meet-and-greet. You can get your tickets here: richarddawkinstour.com/

[@TBOTSS]

What about William Lane Craig?

[@auturgicflosculator2183]

@@TBOTSS Up till now I had no idea who that was. Richard published a short piece titled "Why I refuse to debate with William Lane Craig" in the Guardian, on Thursday, October 20, 2011. Reading that has told me that I probably don't want to know any more about him, except to perhaps make sure I'm out of town if he ever visits here.

[@GHOST9780-d1e]

❤❤❤❤

[@TBOTSS]

@@auturgicflosculator2183 Dawkins is not an honest man. Even an atheist member of the philosophy department called Dawkins a coward for not engaging with a world-class Christian philosopher and theologian. As he pointed out Dawkins is quick to debate local pastors but runs from serious debate. Perhaps Dawkins was cowed due to William Lane Craig perfect record against Oxford professors as well as against two members of the Four Housemen (Hitchens and Harris).

[@kookamunga2458]

​@@TBOTSSYour opinion about this distinguished humanitarian known as Richard Dawkins is but just one opinion in a sea of many sniveling snide remarks. I can smell the victory and it smells like victory of freedom from the "chains of religion."

[@user-ge7mm6wl8d]

Clinically depressed people are the best targets of cults. 😢

[@uncoiledfish2561]

Hence, the wokening.....

[@ohthelushlife]

@@uncoiledfish2561 What does woke mean?

[@uncoiledfish2561]

@@ohthelushlife it can mean different things to different people. But I normally see it as incredibly sympathetic people letting emotion overrule rationality. They care more about someone feeling good, or being accepted than reality. I think it’s a feminine trait. They mean well, they do. But it’s incredibly toxic and actually does more bad than good. What is funny is, you could almost call flat Earthers woke 😅

[@thomastucker5686]

@@ohthelushlife it is a buzzword throne about to create a division as well as another political controlling force. I am surprised Richard would stoop to such a level to even not call out this ridiculous trend. When someone tacks on an 'ism', it is to set up and label a group of people. Folks are still calling 'others', Commies, communists, Marxists and with all of it, don't understand any of the philosophy. People speaking in buzzword salad, apologist tools, it is maddening.

[@avenginglettuce]

@@ohthelushlife Six days and counting....

[@Boris194786]

"Religion is considered true by the people, false by the wise and useful by the rulers" SENECA

[@bachamadu2076]

That's why Seneca committed suicide. The whole point is even the wisest man couldn't see beyond a horizon. He'd one life and blew it like a fool. Christianity, on the other hand, gives realistic hope. To say there's no go God is like a blind man saying there's no eye sight. The evidence for God, especially now with the advance of science, is inescapable. The evidence is overwhelming. I once was in the park and saw rather large insect with painted eye. I was wondering wow this insect has large and beautiful eye. I picked it up to see if it was real and then to my surprise the insect's was like a masked painted eye. How on earth unconscious, unguided, accidental evolution can do such thing???? Anyway, unlike Seneca and many, I'm so glad this woman chose to see life beyond this valley of tears, tears and every pain will one day will wipe away as it happened on the morning of Jesus' Resurrection.

[@MohamadPasandideh]

❤wow great saying ❤

[@funnelingspace9268]

I wonder where all that wisdom went when the USSR and CCP was propped up,

[@spicyhummus6266]

@@funnelingspace9268 In what you're talking about, communism overrides all. A country that uses secular thinking to advance the country will always progress (& become similar to the US) but a country that rules by forcing what you can & can't believe in. All that will do is keep the rulers in charge & break up the world. You can say most of China might be Atheist's but you can't say most of China are Secular Humanists. Atheism is one singular issue, "A lack of belief in god" & that's all. Its not political, its not secular, its not religious.

[@mrzib.crimson]

@@funnelingspace9268Communism is good enough substitute.

[@xSteve1983x]

“Christianity makes me feel better, so I want it to be true” is really all she’s saying.

[@petermeyer6873]

And in a nutshell, this is really all there is when one has peeled off several plebeian layers of truth claims from the religious onion and looks at the catholic churches core definition what "faith" means.

[@Mushin367]

It’s worse. It’s: “Christianity makes me feel better, so I’m going appeal to some Jordan Peterson sophistry as well as layman religious arguments to make the case that it is true.”

[@petermeyer6873]

@@Mushin367 Yes. I can allways grant her every right to go with any fantasy that comforts her after what she has been through for as long as she would make that her private affair. But she is a politician now, and as such in the business of selling thoughts to people and gain power over others. Its absolutely fair now to confront her with how much wrongness she is promoting and for what hidden reasons. Furthermore she has chosen to go into politics in one of the most liberal and tollerating of europes countries. She knows that she can say really anything there without having to fear real consequences. She is now on the territory of zero risk versus maximum gain. Thats really the strongest contrast to where she came from and actually no development to be proud of.

[@DraGonnTheAkadian]

That's exactly what she's saying, unfortunately.

[@forrestorange]

Yep that, but I think there's also a "this would make a great book (much profit)" angle here too. Sad.

[@ratstrydom]

"I believe because I want to believe". Well there we have it.

[@ritalago2284]

Conditions ins't diferente for ateits.

[@ratstrydom]

@ritalago2284 we simply believe things we have evidence for and ignore the rest. No faith required.

[@petergeh9584]

Soon she'll just be another one of those crazy activists protesting against women's reproductive rights and separation of church-state. 👎

[@tomashultgren4117]

@@ratstrydom Do you believe in the "Selfish gene"?

[@ratstrydom]

@tomashultgren4117 I don't "believe" in it. "Believe" means accepting things as truth with no evidence just because an ancient book says so. I do however find it to be a compelling explanation that fits the available data.

[@agneswanjau559]

This lady is a great philosopher. She is also calm and with high intelligent.

[@lizzieh5284]

Religion isnt a cure for anxiety and depression. It often is the cause of it.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

For some people, religion lowers the level of anxiety. Not all religions are the same. Buddhism is not as violent as Islam.

[@mrmaat]

Ayaan has trauma from a lifetime of abuse from Islam. This seems to be a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

[@bendelwijnen6557]

​@Seekthetruth3000 Perhaps not but it's happy to keep its community in perpetual servitude nonetheless.

[@seanoconnor5311]

Social science shows that Christians tend to be happier on every metric than non believers. It's taken almost for granted at this point. Google 'Christianity and happiness', there's no shortage of studies, there's several a year. They also have more sex and higher sexual satisfaction, including (especially, even) women.

[@cevcena6692]

​@@mrmaat??? How, she didn't return to Islam. She went to a religion that Islam hates, that isn't Stockholm syndrome at all

[@tobis.4037]

"I had a personal crisis" - tells you all you need to know...

[@tomashultgren4117]

Which is?...

[@cevcena6692]

​@@tomashultgren4117Nothing. The comment is probably written from an objectivist position, which would dismiss any subjective evidence for religion. But even then, it's misapplied because a subjective perspective doesn't dismiss what could be an objective account of what happened

[@HGALAXIES]

This woman now can be used as the best example of being religious! When you get to your typical level of humanity: general weakness in all levels, anything that takes you out of that weak spot, it becomes your choice of hanging on to! Being fully scientific and objective needs a super strong character and personality and brain, something that she and most of us lack!!!

[@michael-yf8js]

Well put. The sad truth.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@VaughanMcCue]

She may have had it. She mentioned Chesterton - People will fall for anything.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@drvanhelsingz5133]

It’s interesting how’s she’s sounding exactly like the ppl she used to debate against. Even using the same tactics of accusing Dawkins of mocking Christians.

[@Ironsights51]

Sam Harris - “There are 3 ways of defending faith. You either argue that it is true, that it is useful, or you attack atheism as intolerant.” She obviously touches on the first one some, and the second one a lot, but to actually pull out the third one is just comical. Nothing Dawkins said should be seen as a mockery unless you’re backed into a corner with nothing else to say.

[@kookamunga2458]

Someone in the video is brainwashed. I not going to say who because my comment will probably be deleted.

[@PA-1000]

Did Richard Dawkins not do that?

[@kookamunga2458]

@@PA-1000 The woman is a traumatized and brainwashed victim of religion. She drops one religion and tries on a new one as if she were trying out a new hat . Richard is neither of those things .

[@Justice55339h]

He does mock..hello

[@thistles]

This is so sad. Richard did a beautiful job of showing his friend compassion while refusing to cave to emotional manipulation. Thank you for holding the line while maintaining both integrity and humanity. ❤

[@MrRadialdrift]

So when he calls her belief system nonsense that is being a good friend is it? Attempting to pass on a level of intellectual superiority is manipulation. I guess when you have a bias towards someone, you ignore certain aspects.

[@thistles]

@@MrRadialdrift I've been listening to Ayaan for ages, as well. I'm not biased toward Richard over Ayaan. Telling a friend who is buying into nonsense that it's nonsense is showing respect. Be honest with your friends. Don't let them walk down a stupid path.

[@IslandArt61]

@@thistles Similarly said by Patton Oswalt. “You’ve gotta respect everyone’s beliefs." No, you don’t. That’s what gets us in trouble. Look, you have to acknowledge everyone’s beliefs, and then you have to reserve the right to go: "That is fucking stupid. Are you kidding me?" I acknowledge that you believe that, that’s great, but I’m not going to respect it.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@LarsGsanger]

He did evil!

[@SteveAgleron]

She just needed love when she was at her lowest ebb. Unfortunately a believer got to her first. I cannot believe someone of her intelligence could have been swayed by her yearning to feel better. Its a sad, sad state of affairs. I feel so very sad for her. She is clearly still not over her depression.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@uncoiledfish2561]

The coming of Islam to the west, is a major problem. I think that's her main motive.

[@andybotchwey4620]

I also feel sorry you because in your world everything thing is reduction isn't. Some of the most important and brilliant analyst in the world have seen the world beyond reductionism.

[@andrewashdown3541]

It's insulting to say 'she just needed love' - don't you think she' thought through that one? I'm guessing she wld answer 'God IS love'.

[@brandonbee3956]

In a nutshell she said: I can’t deal with reality therefore I chose to believe in comforting lies despite all evidence to the contrary

[@evr67bb]

But she's also infected by the ultra conservative right. Very scary.

[@Wildrover82]

There is no evidence that there isn't a god, but there's no evidence that their is either...

[@evr67bb]

@@Wildrover82 there is no evidence that there isn't a flaberdeefloep

[@Wildrover82]

@@evr67bb true.

[@seanoconnor5311]

@@evr67bb Our civilisation isn't falling over one generation after ceasing belief in a flabberdeefloep

[@viiviiornitier]

We should start treating religions the same as addictions. She relapsed

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@juleslu8403]

that's actually a great analogy!

[@kentstallard6512]

Excellent analogy. It is an addiction of sorts.

[@Runconna]

Or changed grift? The Christian types she associates with in America are quite horrible.

[@domari9459]

It is actually an addiction in most cases if not all cases of human religious behavior. It is a drug that we've created to keep us apparently sane, but has the opposite effect as any other drug when you can't control the use, individually and collectively. It is nothing new. We've known this for thousands of years. I am pretty sure the thinkers or philosophers of ancient Egypt some 5000 years ago and Babilonians around the same era would've discovered that's what religion was. Socrates ended upsetting too many powerful politicians and ended up getting executed for trying to point out what religion is. Ancient Indians knew it during the time of Buddha and way way before Buddha. Karl Marx said it bluntly and managed to find some refuge in more liberal England. Try telling in public that the people who believes in and follow a religion are drug addicts, and you will meet the same fate as Socrates, one way or the other.

[@arthuroldale-ki2ev]

When I was a boy (70 years ago) I asked my father about the religion I was having forced on me at school, he said, " Its nonsense lad !" A wise man my dear old Dad!!!!!!!

[@user-vv2pf1sy4m]

he should have taken you out of that Stupid school, that would have been WISE

[@MSA-uj7cp]

Wow! you were convinced easy lad!!!!! Simply based on what your dad said??? I guess atheists just listen to other people's opinions rather than investigating? that figures.

[@ali72044]

a wise man your dear old dad

[@dheerajbhardwaj986]

Really wise indeed

[@twnkltoesbrad]

This is sad ur dad wasn’t wise he was ignorant and probably didn’t like it because he was forced to be taught it too Jesus loves you

[@michaelaskari9266]

It's just astounding how someone like Ali can change so drastically and become utterly ridiculous. It's truly unbelievable, a complete and utter shock.

[@FedericaGalli89]

Maybe it's just grifting?

[@mariusmihai918]

I dont see anything ridiculous in her stands

[@Arjmm]

She was always utterly ridiculous

[@hhumca]

time will tell, maybe she is going through a tough period.

[@mohammadtajabadi]

Yeah she makes no sense! This was really hard to watch!

[@RetNemmoc555]

This is painful. She's dodging and weaving. I'm finding it very hard to accept that she actually believes. Science can't fully explain consciousness blah blah, so god? She knows better.

[@etaylor8028]

Hold on... She has not once described "God" in a sense that "if you don't do xyz then you're doomed to hell". Her understanding of "God" is that there is a greater purpose to life, your soul does live on, and that provides comfort to people. She was struggling with depression, and (either through "miracle" or simply a tweaking of her own subconscious) placed that power into a "higher power" (as it's called) and that cured her depression. It's a sort of placebo argument, however when it comes to mind, whether it is placebo or not makes no difference; the fact a change was made, means the method is valid.

[@Zurealz]

@@etaylor8028 Great philosophy to have, but it doesn't need the religious dogma along with it. If she is now of the faith and its tenets, she needs to be clear about the beliefs that that religion is based upon, as that's what being a Christian is. Her dodging and weaving makes her beliefs sound very disingenuous or that she's not telling the whole truth and has an ulterior motive with this awakening.

[@etaylor8028]

@@Zurealz I get what you mean, but if you read her book, she was forced into female genital mutilation in childhood (meaning her clitoris was cut off so she can never experience orgasm).. perhaps religion and belief in jesus christ was her way to cope with her depression?

[@gps9715]

@@etaylor8028 That happened to her BECAUSE of religion. jfc

[@clorofilaazul]

You supose "she knows better". I'm sorry, but the doesn't. She's really still the same young person she was when she was a Muslim who didn't understand reality satisfyingly. She came full circle.

[@jgiza8888]

“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them". Hypatia 5th Century

[@Tony11442]

You just reminded me of the movie Agora

[@richardvoyer5697]

It is absolutely mind-blowing how much power indoctrination has. WOWWWW. Should be treated as child abuse. Without indoctrination religion has nothing or diminish substantially.

[@NadiaKhan-oz4vy]

Ayan looks for something to fill a current political gap not truth. She may be sincere to that end but not to truth.

[@blupandax7902]

What about miracles such as Big Bang? A magical firecracker appearing from nowhere and exploding for no reason and creating the universe, along with star dust which evolved into dinosaurs?

[@jgiza8888]

@@blupandax7902 What you describe as "appearing from nowhere and exploding for no reason" is ignorance. Not knowing the cause does not make it a miracle.

[@vids595]

When people are indoctrinated into a world view that purpose, meaning and morality are ascribed to us by a deity, they often suffer from an essential crisis when they come to understand that this is not true. This was famously observed by Friedrich Nietzsche.

[@vids595]

Very sad to see people suffering this way thanks to indoctrination into supernatural beliefs.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@maomao180]

She uses the word cult on every other religion except her own but does not realize she is in one herself.

[@marz6588]

My friend only JESUS is the way, the truth, and the life.

[@XypherMage94]

I used to be like you, think I was smarter than everyone else and that everyone who was religious was either brainwashed or stupid. Let me tell you, you're in your own cult of Ego. "Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love." "Existentialism isn't so atheistic that it wears itself out showing that God doesn't exist. Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing." "I suffer, but still, I don’t live. I am x in an indeterminate equation. I am a sort of phantom in life who has lost all beginning and end, and who has even forgotten his own name. You are laughing- no, you are not laughing, you are angry again. You are forever angry, all you care about is intelligence, but I repeat again that I would give away all this superstellar life, all the ranks and honours, simply to be transformed into the soul of a merchant’s wife weighing eighteen stone and set candles at God’s shrine” -Fyodor Dostoevsky

[@twnkltoesbrad]

⁠@@XypherMage94it’s not ego we want to save you Ur the one with ego

[@viiviiornitier]

Richard came to talk to equal-level colleague, and had to discuss a child-like arguments. He is looking at her with disbelief, his face says it all

[@Rin0Kaka]

Yes...he was very gentle with her.

[@LarsGsanger]

He want’s to be Satan!

[@DerSlashfuhrer]

feeling sorry for Richard having to witness how a woman whose intellect and bravery he so greatly respected suddenly starts spouting inane drivel about how the fact the some ancient middle eastern fairytales are 2000 years old somehow makes them wise and true

[@alexisarouge]

Me too. His first question gets right to it, as he does, and shows his incredulity, and great shock it seems. Always sad to lose a rational mind.

[@saiyedkashefshahbazi8844]

😂😂😂

[@robbie14157]

Agreed, Richard needed Christopher Hitchens to sit on his shoulder to whisper in his ear for support.

[@dandare1001]

She doesn't really believe in God. She is just fighting against Islam. I get her point, and maybe it's the sensible route, until mankind as a whole develops. I think she is simply worried that Islam's aggressive recruitment and repetitive indoctrination of converts will fill what's missing in the minds of some of the recent atheists. Christianity is much more benign and isn't taken so seriously in the West. In the West, we lack an agreed moral code for living life (apart from laws). A decent morality should be taught in schools. I think this is what Sam Harris is trying to do. Unfortunately, the right-wing (often) and the (Christian and Jewish) religious are against Sam, and by being so, are inadvertently helping Islam. All of those groups are just as stupid and selfish as each other. They only care about their own ideologies.🙄

[@Gruso57]

@@alexisarouge TBH I don't think she was ever really rational. She had replaced religion with political dogma long before this new conversion to Christianity

[@drewlovelyhell4892]

Saying that Atheism doesn't offer anything, is like telling a slave that freedom doesn't offer anything.

[@wet-read]

I get what you're saying, but it's true. Atheism by itself doesn't offer anything. And people who have shed their faith may still initially feel lost and confused in the world.

[@arthuroldale-ki2ev]

Yes Sireeeee!!!!!!!!

[@alanho6814]

Yeah, but that's just negation. To be generous, I think she meant atheism offers nothing positively, or adding something to the table, instead of just sweeping something nasty away; she wanted more. To use your own example, yes, freedom negates slavery, and the slave is now free from slavery, but does freedom tell the slave what to do next? Freedom grants the slave to be free and her future to be open but it doesn't offer an orientation. Now you know why she as a depressed person, who probably suffered from exitential dread, would want more.

[@RJWhitmore]

@@alanho6814 Any scam will offer something. In fact, it is very easy to offer something if its a scam, since you don't need to actually provide that thing in the end. The question is, does the misguided hope that you will get something outweigh the everything you give up for it? If so, then conmen are the most virtueous beings around, since they offer so much hope.

[@Jaanikins]

@@alanho6814 Yes, so she should have gone out of her way to make a better lifestyle incorporating atheism and all of the good things that come from religion, philosophy, morality, politics, etc. Then she wouldn't be stepping back into the primitive mindset of religion but making something new out of it. Maybe she isn't the best person to create this new lifestyle, but she definitely has a responsibility as an ex-muslim speaker and pioneer of leaving toxic religious faith alongside Sam Harris, Maajid Nawaz, Richard Dawkind, etc to stay consistent and "Try" her best to create something.

[@oneplusoneequalstwo1523]

We’re all stupid. Some of us are just not as stupid as others.

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@Jay-ate-a-bug]

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

[@MyNameIsThe_Sun]

My God, she's gone off the rocker

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@VaughanMcCue]

Her god rocks!

[@kingpriapatius5832]

THE WEST IS BASED ON GRECOROMAN PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE. NOT "JUDEOCHRISTIAN "VALUES".

[@CelestialVenerableValinor]

When did atheism meant there's nothing to believe in?

[@karagi101]

It never has. There are countless things that one can believe in, that can give your life purpose and meaning. Sadly, she couldn’t find any or didn’t really try.

[@tgenov]

@@karagi101 What do you mean "she couldn't find any"? She found exactly what gives her life purpose and meaning - Christianity. She also found what didn't give her life any purpose or meaning - atheism.

[@karagi101]

@@tgenov Obviously I’m referring to things to believe in that are real and not imaginary.

[@tgenov]

@@karagi101 Obviously you continue to disregard the fact that morality (something we all believe in) is imaginary. We imagine a world without violence, without poverty, without ignorance, without oppression and slavery. We imagine a better world. And then we believe in the imagination. And then we make it happen. Because it’s not real. Yet.

[@tgenov]

@@karagi101 You are literally demonstrating the point of the total lack of purpose and meaning atheism offers. You want me to believe in real/material things? Ok. I believe in Jupiter. And the universe! And now what? Where do we go from here? How does this belief in real things set a course for the future?

[@bouzoukiman5000]

Every reason Ali gives for her new belief is just ridiculous

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

I think she is holding back. She may not accept all of the Bible.

[@VesnaVK]

Yes, and it's not mocking her to say so. She accused Dr. Dawkins so many times of "mocking." He was not mocking; he was stating facts.

[@I.Reckon]

Her main concern seems to be the "moral vacuum" among young people. I think she worries and became a christian needlessly. The vast majority of young people that I am aware of, have perfectly reasonable and valid morals. Reverting to the sketchy morals of ancient people from 2000 years ago seems a bit silly to me. Lets engage and challenge people to construct and consolidate a strong socially responsible moral code by which to enjoy this precious life.

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

@@I.Reckon How do you explain what is happening among student protestors on university campuses?

[@I.Reckon]

@@user-og2wt3le4j Most are protesting against war and loss of life, because political and religious leaders are willing to sacrifice other peoples lives for their own beliefs.

[@PJM273]

"I choose to believe" is not an argument. It is a horrible defense to nonsense. If you were to say to Ayaan, I choose to believe in wokeism, she would shred your logic to pieces. She's lost the plot - I feel sorry for her actually.

[@xSteve1983x]

Bingo. Belief isn’t a choice.

[@gvelden1]

Indeed. You are either convinced or you are not. Ayaan has become a nut case.

[@Taurex]

You can choose to dedicate your life to any idea and live your life as if it were true which I think is what people who say that really mean. Also belief is not binary, sometimes people might have a small part of them that actually believes and if you choose to dedicate your life to that thing then over time that’s probably gonna impact your actual beliefs. Btw this is coming from an atheist and I’m not trying to justify the belief in anything, just trying to explain it.

[@PJM273]

@@Taurex "as if it were true" is where your position falls apart. I choose to, it makes me feel better, my parents told me so ... are equally bullshit and harmful positions if you actually care about truth. You should teach/follow truth.

[@Taurex]

@@PJM273 As a fellow atheist and someone who deeply cares about truth I would tend to agree. But why do you care about truth? Maybe on some level you simply just do, but I think if you go a little deeper it ultimately leads to the avoidance of suffering/maximizing wellbeing. I care about truth because I believe that in order to properly orient ourselves in the world and best deal with it's problems, we have to align ourselves with reality. Why do I care about solving problems? Because I want to avoid suffering. If you're in a state of unbearable suffering then you'll do whatever it takes to get out of it regardless of what's true. Truth is no longer your biggest concern, and that's probably the way it should be in that moment. You can certainly argue that believing things that are untrue is bullshit and harmful, and as someone who deeply cares about truth I tend to agree, however at some point we have to be honest with ourselves and say that truth is not the only thing that matters. If you had the choice between living in a world free of suffering but you have to believe something untrue vs a world where you're 100% aligned with truth but everyone suffers as much as the possibly can, which one would you choose? If anyone says the latter then I can't imagine anything more irrational. Again I'm not trying to justify Ayaan's belief here, but I think she's more concerned with what's good for us than what's true (as we all at bottom are) so it makes more sense to argue against that position in those same terms rather than arguing only what's true.

[@geraldcoffey3303]

Dawkins has amazing patience

[@TBOTSS]

and amazing running skills. Look how quickly he ran away from William Lane Craig.

[@PJM273]

@@TBOTSS WLC is not worth debating. He sells bullshit/lies to morons.

[@chrisknight9682]

@@TBOTSS . WLC is simply obnoxious . Odious beyond the patience of any reasonable man.

[@PJM273]

@@TBOTSS WLC is not worth debating. He is a fanatical lunatic that sells obvious and demonstrable lies to morons.

[@Tony11442]

​@@TBOTSS Every sane person would run away from WLC

[@drvanhelsingz5133]

She keeps avoiding the question

[@blackwolfe638]

because she knows what a farce she is supporting for very selfish broken reasons.

[@thekennethofoz3594]

I noticed that too. Prof. Dawkins asked some very straightforward, simple questions ... do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin? do you believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead? ... she just talked around them, no real answer. She is following the same paths that religious apologists have followed for a long time. It's sad. It's sad that she has been through some terrible emotional times, and I wish her well, and I hope she has a much better future, but I don't think her current path will serve her well.

[@toniwetteroth4261]

That is very typical of theist I am about a third of the way through and I don't feel that she is being pressured to answer the questions, but this is very typical

[@Zurealz]

And it's Richard who's "mocking" her beliefs. JFC.

[@maxxam3590]

​@@RenzunShark"Wrong" how?

[@MichaelBurau]

„Christianity is obsessed with love“ Yes, and there is no hate like Christian love.

[@seanoconnor5311]

Weird that she didn't need a bodyguard against Christians then....

[@MichaelBurau]

@@seanoconnor5311 Because Bodyguards usually protect you from physical harm, not from mental harm.

[@seanoconnor5311]

@@MichaelBurau Hahahaha no one ever suffered mental harm from having continuous organised efforts to murder them on the street for 20 years! Those Christians were so hateful with their letters that she got a positive impression! That's waaaay worse!

[@michaelbigelow412]

It’s sad that her story is so often repeated. In a time of self loathing, depression and emptiness, a person turns to magical beliefs because they feel good. A quote from Carl Sagan kept blasting in my mind as I watched this. “Unpleasant truth is better than delightful fantasy.” Ayaan has chosen the delightful fantasy.

[@DrSabriBebawi]

"All religions are false" is the most truthful statement.

[@richardvoyer5697]

Yes and I don't know is also a good answer instead of pretending knowing.

[@mauimeow6797]

True. But it is also true that most people don't want to hear that. Good luck with "trying harder". If the west continues trying secular humanism harder islam will win. In the end islam will get rid of the woke useful idiots.

[@DrSabriBebawi]

@user-ow4oj1wk2o In that sense, you are correct.

[@symmetrie_bruch]

@user-ow4oj1wk2o nobody said relgions are not real. you seem to deliberatly miss the point there. if i say the idea that a god exist is false i don´t say that idea is not real, i say it´s false.

[@emmanuelpeter8288]

Your statement is relative, not absolute truth. If you know that human knowledge is limited, then it is not right to say religions are false.

[@bobbart4198]

... " Different Plains of Perception " ... I honestly would have expected more from someone of Hirsi's intellect. And " Let's agree to disagree " ? ... that's a level of vapid disconnect that is beneath ANYONE who speaks out in a public venue and makes a part of their living at it .

[@Tony11442]

Perhaps she was never on the level of intellect we thought she was on.

[@Lopfff]

Totally

[@Lopfff]

@@Tony11442 I was thinking the same thing. It’s weird to hear the Fifth Horseman making such lame ass arguments she herself must have faced several times before. Of course we all know what happened: it’s her husband. You know how there’s that girl who hates country music, and then she gets a boyfriend who likes country music, and now she’s a fan

[@Tony11442]

@@Lopfff Yes absolutely. That's probably it.

[@I.Reckon]

@@Lopfff 🤣🤣🤣

[@phillipw6374]

Its like she forgot every reason why Christianity is bullshit, after she simply felt better. Glad to hear she's in a better place, but she's apparently had memory loss in the process.

[@Subfightr]

Unfortunately, that's all it takes. That FEELING, is real, and in some can overtake logic. I assume it's like people who do drugs and see God. Of course you saw god etc, you're on FREAKING HALLUCINOGENIC DRUGS IDIOT! Must be a hell of a feeling. I've had a dream that my dad was alive, as alive as could be, and when I awoke for a.BRIEF moment I felt it was true, then reality hit me, I didn't want it to be true but it is. I wonder if they have that moment, but they just run with it?

[@fujohnson8667]

£5 says you’ll be praying on your death bed. Atheists always fear death at the end. You are just scared of the moral structure it provides.

[@sananton2821]

This always happens when Whites take on a pet-project model minority. They always turn around and show why they never belonged at the table in the first place. See: Candace Owens, Kanye West, Shannon Sharpe, OJ, Tiger Woods, Mike Tirico...

[@szarkazm]

Ayaan is so disappointing. I read so many of her books, she was a hero for women. She has been brainwashed, and it is beyond sad.

[@VesnaVK]

This is so sad. What do you think is happening here?

[@psyskeptic9979]

She is still great

[@alanho6814]

Not much as brainwashed I suppose, she did it herself. It's not that surprising actually, why would ancient people unknowingly invent religion/spirituality in the first place if not for some psychological comfort? It's not so much that there's a God-shaped hole in each of us but there's a hole-shpaed God in our imagination. And can you blame her? She was so depressed that she entertained the idea of suicide. When people are really desperate, under severe stress, something happens to their psyche.

[@saulger6409]

@@alanho6814 So she believes in God and has selected love as Christianity's tenet ? Not the end of the world and no problems to you or I or anybody else. It does not negate her criticism, based on what was personally inflicted on her, of Islam and murderous (to non-believers and non-followers of Sharia) Qur'anic exhortations.

[@VesnaVK]

@@alanho6814 your comment that there a "hole-shaped god" is brilliant.

[@bkangel2213]

poor woman she’s all over the place. She doesn’t even want eye contact when she’s spouting nonsense

[@samhatam]

Yes, she still has the residues of goat herder’s mentality. Exercise my language.

[@mrmaat]

She’s sold herself to the far right, which is quite sad to see.

[@samhatam]

@@mrmaat I totally agree.

[@Johnnyfive55]

That's unfair, that is her demeanor

[@weijieliao4890]

This is literally how fragile minds are drawn towards the supernatural and mythicism. Reality is too much for them.

[@gps9715]

It's all about fear and comfort.

[@user-vv2pf1sy4m]

yess

[@arthuroldale-ki2ev]

When you think that country`s are still being governed by religious Doctoring, it shows how primitive the human being still is, as though it has learnt, LICKITY SPLIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@jonathanspencer4834]

You perhaps could learn some humility from Christianity . It's an arrogant position you have in my view .

[@ryantowell]

In a way, we might be better off not knowing the truth about some things. That's not to say we should bury our sands in the sand like some people do with religion, but I think if humans KNEW the true nature of reality, the cosmos, etc then I think we'd go mad.

[@danstracner9053]

This lady is “wandering in mazes lost” (to quote Milton). Dawkins’ position is clear, even his adherence to “cultural Christianity” because of the societal and artistic benefits it affords. Her view boils down to: Religion is comforting, so it must be good. She implies that people who don’t accept religious myths and stories are not capable of finding such comfort. That is such a simplistic, condescending attitude. Rational secular humanism offers comfort, compassion, inspiration and creativity without requiring belief in obvious falsehoods or wallowing in misleading emotional excesses.

[@zzybaloobah3095]

And Dawkins claim is (largely) religion is bad so it must be false. The existence (or non-existence) of God, like "life after death" is not something that can be settled within science.

[@lornasalzman4565]

The most inspiring, comforting condition for humans is to expand the experience of the natural miracles of Nature. Once we comprehend the beauty, mystery and benefits of learning about and immersing ourselves in the extraordinary miracle of evolution and ecology, our brains and emotions will become our faith and a source of worship based on science, not on personal conversions or healing of our emotional and psychological problem that can only be solved by people, not sermons or holy books. Our planetary systems are authoritative systems and we defy them at risk of extinction.

[@nickvolkert3450]

Everyone keeps talking about the “moral vacuum”, and how young people are “lost” today. I don’t feel that or see it around me at all.. I’m a young person who feels utterly set free by conducting my own examinations of morality instead of letting a holy book do it for me.

[@bakuljavadekar6767]

Ayan seems more confused now than she was earlier!

[@Goettel]

I feel she's still a victim of early indoctrination, which after abandoning Islam has left a "god size hole" in her that's just begging to be filled. When vulnerable, it's hard to resist giving yourself over to anything that provides relief.

[@Mushin367]

Bro, she literally seems like she hit her head and is not smart anymore.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@Ironsights51]

It’s honestly sad. I don’t think Christians see this video the same way we do… she genuinely seems weak here. She talks like somebody who has completely lost, like a captured hostage saying what she thinks she has to say to stay alive. She says she’s not, and that’s she’s stronger and happier now, and she sounds absolutely ridiculous in the process. I feel for her, this is a very small tragedy.

[@fidelemusangile743]

​@@Ironsights51 Yeah that's the way to enlightenment and inner peace. You can be proud and arrogant but miserable inside or be humble and meek but with peace within.

[@momo19991]

What type of psychiatrist would say you have “spiritual bankruptcy “? I don’t think that is even medically ethical or allowed.

[@MrCanis4]

Is that like “losing money you don't have?”

[@ratstrydom]

Probably a Christian counselor.

[@momo19991]

@@ratstrydom She said “psychiatrist”! That is an MD in the US.

[@xavierowino]

But she says she saw many therapists and nothing worked. But with her last therapist, things finally worked. It only worked because she tried the advice. How can you argue with that?

[@momo19991]

@@xavierowinoBecause psychiatrists are medical doctors in the United States and such a statement is unthinkable by them and against their code of ethics.

[@tommyvictorbuch6960]

"Faith claims are all equally rotten, false, dishonest, corrupt, humourless and dangerous." - Christopher Hitchens -

[@gideondavid30]

You need Jesus.

[@tommyvictorbuch6960]

@@gideondavid30 no I don't. And nor do you.

[@divided_and_conquered1854]

No one reasons their way into Christianity and neither did she.

[@TBOTSS]

I did.

[@281992pdr]

@@TBOTSS Please provide objectively verifiable evidence - and please show the workings that support your reasoning. If you, or anyone else can do that, I will beleive in one of the many hundreds of gods that religionists across the world say exist. As an aside, and in addition, which is your preferred deity?

[@divided_and_conquered1854]

@@TBOTSS No you didn't. You _told yourself_ you did, but it was purely emotional. Don't lie to me.

[@Tony11442]

Or any other religion

[@TBOTSS]

@@divided_and_conquered1854 I watched William Lane Craig beat atheist after atheist in debates. I observed and smelled the fear that Dawkins had off WLC. I saw the ease in which Rowan Williams and John Lennox handled Dawkins. By the way you are making a category mistake - if one is lead into a belief by emotional means, it does not mean that the belief is not rational.

[@Lance-yl5sz]

Ayaan has thrown out critical thinking and replaced it with personal feelings.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@zwerko]

She was never a champion of that discipline anyway, if we're being honest.

[@RalphOK]

On the contrary, Ayaan is thinking critically about the dangers of Islam, and the reason it is flourishing in the West. She is using critical thinking to conclude (rightly or wrongly) that Christianity is the best weapon the West has against Islam, regardless of whether or not Jesus is the son of the God of Abraham.

[@jasondads9509]

Most people don't, which is basically her argument why atheism/enlightened rationality doesn't work

[@FoJ-REAPP]

There's nothing to think about criticality to believe in atheism. It's rather the easy way out. It's about constantly convincing yourself that there's nothing there to believe. To say she's thrown out critical thinking is to say she's become idiot. But I defer. A famous writer once wrote, over 2500 years ago, that, "Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." Between one that is described as an idiot because she believes in God, and one that describes him/herself as intelligent because he/she believes there's no God, I'll choose the so-called idiot because she's the one that with critical thinking, courage and sincerity has been able to look deeper into the waters confusion and has been able to see the domain of the truth and has has embraced it. The so-called intelligent ones are either not able to look deeper because there's so much confusion in them, or their insincerity and self-indulgence wouldn't allow them be honest with the truth. Imagine Dawkins becoming Christian. Are you still going to say he's also thrown out critical thinking? In other words, you mean to say, people like Francis Collins and Sir Francis Bacon all threw out critical thinking. Keep tickling yourself just to have a smile. Keep denying truth just to make yourself happy!

[@Lord_Nordan]

It's amazing how quickly she has adopted the arguments of the same apologetics she used to oppose. Nothing new or enlightened, just the same old arguments.

[@Mushin367]

It’s shocking. What do you think happened to her?

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@Lord_Nordan]

@@Mushin367 I think she's responding to perceived political threats and believes her lifestyle will be more secure among the Christian elite.

[@abdigah5364]

I am Somali with Muslim background and I believe that while Islam , from its first days to the present is ideology based mainly threats and division of mankind while Christianity , as a relgion preaches peace and love . Ayan Hirsi courageously exposes many truths

[@liberalegypt]

I am ex-Muslim from the Middle East. I understand Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s feelings. I will not talk about depression and spiritual bankruptcy, as it is her personal experience. But I ask a question to fans of Richard Dawkins, because they are rational people like me and him Is there a competitor to Islam that can be repelled except Christianity? I literally do not find anyone who challenges Islam except Christians who take their religion seriously As for secular Christians and atheists, most of them fall into side conflicts that have nothing to do with the danger of Islam to the world. Rather, we sometimes find alliances with Muslims in internal electoral and other conflicts. The Four Horsemen were aware of the danger of Islam...but most of the more secular movements accuse the Four Horsemen of Islamophobia. Is it a coincidence that we find that only the far right declares its hostility to Islam?

[@suebard7]

Did you mean to ask, "Is there a competitor to Islam that can repel it other than Christianity?" If so, I would say no.

[@nicholasmacdonald1]

@@suebard7 I would say that Hindutva and Chinese “Communism” are pretty hefty anti-Islamic ideologies (the Chinese would not consider themselves anti-Islamic, but the Islam they tolerate is a very “neutered” one), and together they have an awful lot of adherents - but neither is a solution for the western world, for obvious reasons.

[@liberalegypt]

@@suebard7 yea I mean that 👍🏻

[@fekinel]

She's lost her marbles .. 🤕

[@markaurelius61]

And yet she is able to analyse the current situation of western progressives and academics quite incisively.

[@Tony11442]

She never had as much marbles as we thought.

[@Tony11442]

Or she's getting paid well.

[@xSteve1983x]

@@markaurelius61but still believes in Zombie Jesus and Eve being made from Adam’s rib.

[@markaurelius61]

@@xSteve1983x So? If you are an atheist you have to believe somehow the universe is just coincidentally designed to allow for complex chemistry, and that somehow the first cell just sort of shook itself into the right configuration.

[@alexisarouge]

Different planes of perception? Come on. There is an objective reality.

[@bankiey]

It’s not a reference to something outside the objective world, it’s refers to the ontology of experience itself. There is a psychological element we cannot seem to get a grasp on, in an analogous way to the fact that the one-way trip of light has yet to be measured despite all the labor.

[@symmetrie_bruch]

@@bankiey yep and the other way around too. i think it takes a certain person to be awed and inspired by the real world as it actual is, and richard has that in spades. many of us have that, that´s why we´re atheists. but she probably never got the poetrity of reality with all it´s wonders, that without any supernatural and spiratual nonsense has magick and beauty and dare i say it "spirituality" of it´s own. and not only that if you have that awe and wonder for the natural real world, supernaturality, "miracles" and superstitions would just spoil that, diminish that, rather than enhance that beauty.

[@bankiey]

​@@symmetrie_bruch One objective take on what constitutes a demon, an angel, a god, is that they are repeating patterns of human behavior that are initially influenced by a combination of instinct and genetics and culture and memetics. No group of people are without a memome, one will form over time as a consequence of our mouth noises in the context of self-preservation. Dawkins is dead-correct about the vaccination analogy.

[@karelvandervelden8819]

There is no moral vacuum in atheisme. Sense of morality is fed by evolving insights.

[@thomasgilson6206]

So true

[@lilithlevaykjeldahl5257]

Too true. I am highly offended by the notion that atheism has no morality. 😮

[@mauimeow6797]

How do you explain what is happening among student protestors on university campuses?

[@Taurex]

@@mauimeow6797The Israel/Palestine protests? What about it? You’re not implying that all those protestors are atheists surely? But even if that was the case you’ll still have to explain the link you seem to be implying between atheism and the protests. Also can you be more specific? Are you talking about the protestors who support Hamas?

[@jasondads9509]

The point is that there is no set of moral values inherent in atheism, unlike in religion where they are more enforced. Since there is no inherent moral structure, its easier to adopt another when it presents it self. Thats the crux of her one of her arguments. Moral vacuum doesn't mean everyone is a terrible person.

[@Eudaimonia88]

Thank you, Professor Dawkins, for being the religious 'anti-vaxxer' we need in our lives and for bringing important conversations such as this one to a wide audience. If one tries very hard to view Ayaan Hirsi Ali's adoption of the Christian faith as being separate from and not influenced by her political views - which are not easy to categorise and some of which are often reminiscent of those held by conservative and right-leaning groups - then one needs to look at other reasons for her disillusionment with atheism. If one assumes that Ayaan Hirsi Ali - in the role of educator - is using her adoption of the Christian faith to better reach young people who are finding themselves in the moral vacuum she is describing - young people who are therefore possibly more likely to fall victim to radical Islamist ideas - then she is choosing her newly found religious faith to fight against the causes of Western moral collapse and to prevent our societal values from disintegrating. In this context her conversion and adoption of Christian teachings are a tool which she wields on the supposition that young people today, despite an education system built on humanist thought and higher levels of education, desperately need Christian moral principles in order to flourish and gain the necessary level of confidence against aggressive Islamist and Wokeist ideas. She must therefore feel that young people are not capable of applying the dictates of independent critical thinking and be emboldened by them, that a herd mentality prevails, that reason alone is not going to save Western civilisation, and that secular humanism is no bulwark against the tyranny of currently circulating virulent 'mind viruses'. As uncomfortable as it makes me feel, but what if Ayaan is onto something? What if human reason is not universal, neutral, and devoid of presupposition? Does faith in fact underpin any philosophy that claims to be the voice of autonomous and universal reason? This appears to be true for the philosophies of Kant, Spinoza and Hegel. Faith, then, could be an indispensable part of any philosophy of reason. Rationality, after all, involves committing oneself to a belief, and faith involves making judgments about what is trustworthy. Ayaan perhaps feels that severing the connection between reason and faith has led to our current problems. Why, for example, have considerable numbers of the formerly moderate liberal left eschewed it for aggressive, progressive and illiberal, in some cases fanatical, ideas? It appears to be difficult to do away with faith-based considerations altogether. Society appears to resist them, even - in some cases - at the highest intellectual levels. I still dream the dream of a rational secular humanist society, ultimately a global society that has risen above the need to create faith-based communities. May truth be our lighthouse and the search for it unencumbered by the sirens of irrationality! .

[@mrmaat]

Whatever the issues and voids created by secularism, the dangers of religious thinking have been on full display for 3000 years. Ayaan’s “cure” is a poison. A sweeter tasting poison, yes, but one just as pernicious as Islam.

[@Andy101-tm3hz]

Jesus wasn't even political!! Jesus told the rich to sell all their possessions and give to the poor and to not mistreat the foreigner or sick or those in jail or the orphans because if we mistreat them we are doing it to Him (Jesus)!! Jesus said in The Bible to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and Render unto God what is God's

[@Yusuf1187]

" then she is choosing her newly found religious faith to fight against the causes of Western moral collapse and to prevent our societal values from disintegrating." Right, and that's what a ton of people are saying - that this was a political choice. Why did you say to try separating this from her political views, and then immediately offer the suggestion that it was a conversion done due to her political views? "What if human reason is not universal, neutral, and devoid of presupposition?" Clearly it's not - if I understand your intended meaning correctly. And I think most people know this. This is why we develop means to mitigate the problems of unreason and presupposition as much as possible, by observing what ways of thinking cause verifiably erroneous conclusions. The scientific method and lists of logical fallacies have been developed through that observation, and can be tested to verify the logical reliability of a given principle or method. Even the very principle of avoiding absolutist conclusions of 100% certainty is born out of recognizing this problem. One of the most important points to remember is that "reason" does not have to mean "just anyone's opinion on what feels intuitive" (this would indeed be as almost as unreliable as faith, as it would be quite arbitrary to one person's personal experiences up to that point, and lack testing). But "reason" in the sense of a scientific worldview is not some arbitrary set of ideas or methods. It is a flexible set of ideas that has been built up over millennia of experience from millions of people - and continues to adapt today as we gain more information and new technologies to observe nature. It isn't some revelation. "Does faith in fact underpin any philosophy that claims to be the voice of autonomous and universal reason?" No, not really. Because then they would all be equally inflexible, nor could we use any of them to navigate the real world. But in reality, different ideologies function very differently, being more flexible or less flexible to evidence, and relying on vastly different amounts of assumption. In ideology A, you can have believers claim absolute certainty (as in Christianity). In ideology B, believers can reach a conclusion but claim they know they can't be absolutely certain. In Christianity or Islam etc, a person believes almost entirely the same thing regardless of evidence and observation. In an evidence-based ideology B a person could change almost anything in their worldview according to new information. If your goal is to know reality, then you must observe and account for all information, not rely on assumption (which you call "faith"). How do we know this? Because it's testable in even our daily lives. Assumptions disconnected from observation result in people holding completely different beliefs which never adjust. But observation and adjustment results in people's views converging more and more and - this is key - demonstrating success in navigating the world. There's a reason you don't use faith/assumption to decide where to walk on the street. You don't walk around with your eyes closed and your hands over your ears, and just believe whatever you want. Because you can test the result. You bump into things, trip, walk into traffic etc. So instead, you use your senses to observe and determine what is most likely true based on what your eyes and ears tell you. You walk accordingly. You will literally trip a lot less and walk on the right path. People use a rational approach in most aspects of life from walking around town, to engineering, to detective work etc. But they drop it in favor of assumption once the matter comes to their cosmological beliefs and what they find personally comforting to think about death and purpose because it feels more useful and effective for satisfying those desires easily. "Rationality, after all, involves committing oneself to a belief, and faith involves making judgments about what is trustworthy." What do you mean "involves committing oneself to a belief" in this context? Rationality is based on probability and flexibility according to evidence. Faith relies on certainty and remaining steadfast in that certainty even when contrary evidence. These are fundamentally different concepts. And rationality can and is used to make determinations about what is trustworthy. It need not be arbitrary. Again, the difference is in accounting for all available evidence from observation and testing WAYS of reasoning, versus faith which is where a person simply CHOOSES what to call trustworthy. And in case anyone misunderstands: if Ms. Ali thinks she has observed that *Christianity does a better job at maintaining western values than Islam*, then THAT is the "rational" conclusion here. But deciding that Christianity's cosmological claims and beliefs about resurrection and Yahweh being real etc is a faith-based belief in this situation, since she can't justify it with evidence nor even attempts to, interestingly. "May truth be our lighthouse" Statements like this demonstrate the difference between what is rational vs what is irrational. Truth itself is not directly knowable. It is a goal, not a guide. Evidence from observation is the only possible guide in reality simply because as humans all we can do is observe and test methodologies to make more observations to determine how the world works. So a lighthouse is a bad analogy - unless you're a Christian, since Christians view truth as a directly knowable entity which a person simply chooses to follow or not.

[@this_alec]

Sad to not hear Buddhism mentioned in these contexts. Modern Buddhism is a (not the only) beautiful framework for finding a sense of spiritual meaning while maintaining solid grounding in rational reality. States such as compassion, selflessness, empathy, love are all accessible in the human experience, without the need for a God to answer for them.

[@user-xl8ku6uj3v]

❤

[@humbertsmith8864]

I would be very careful there with that generalization

[@humbertsmith8864]

So sad to see her intellectual bankruptcy

[@this_alec]

@@humbertsmith8864 Fair enough! There are obviously dark applications of Buddhist teachings. Religion tends to take something good and ruin it. I’m referring specifically to the modern, secular interpretations of ancient Buddhist philosophies. But I appreciate the warning! Appropriate to note.

[@EpicLemonMusic]

She is ridiculous. Absolute logical gobbledigook. Zero mention of the thousands of other religions including Deism which Richard would likely accept. She sucks and always has, but is still a good speaker on the dangers of Islamic society.

[@peoplespeace]

Would have been fun if Richard had said that he "choses" to believe that Ayaan is a Christian! 😂

[@auturgicflosculator2183]

Moses, supposes, his toeses, are roses, Moses, supposes, erroneously!

[@emka198]

She may have been under influence of her therapist. A therapist has tremendous power over clients

[@richardvoyer5697]

So you need two of them so one watches the other and the other watches the one😅

[@BlakeStackman]

​@@richardvoyer5697an observer who watches the observer...but who then watches the observer's observer, and so on? 🤔 Haha. Very Alan Watts. I'm surprised that therapist can get away with imprinting their own personal ideologies onto their clients.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@richardvoyer5697]

@BlakeStackman ; you're right, it does sound very much like Alan Watts. Wasn't intentional.

[@RJWhitmore]

It comes across to me that Ayaan is indeed a political and cultural Christian, who is willing to sacrifice integrity in truth in order to fight off Islam in the most successful way she foresees. To this end, she will force herself to believe in 70% of the nonsense in order to come off as a stronger advocate. I do feel that if Islam was to disappear over night then Ayaan would very well stop advocating for Christanity, unless she felt it was still needed to stop a return of Islam. The conversation starting around 40 minutes in about a psychological spiritual void forming in Western societies that Islamists are then taking advantage off, I do agree with Ayaan in part. Being rational and seeing things for the truth rather than for comfort is a struggle - a struggle many people do not wish for. Yet, people are prideful and wish to look confident. As such, many people will take an easier explanation that has local mob support so that they can easily bypass the struggle of thinking rationally while not looking incompetent - no one wants the be village idiot. Ayaan's solution is to fill that with Christanity instead of Islam, which Dawkins agrees is a better outcome between the two. Ideally, as Dawkins has mentioned, the person would fill that instead with rationality - however, this is likely not a one-fits-all solution. If a child asks their father difficult questions, if the father is not willing to educate themselves and apply rational thought to those questions then the father either has a choice of looking like they have no answers or giving that child false answers that require a lot less work on their part. "Father, how does....?" "Son, God made it that way" "Father, why do we...? "Son, God knows what is best", and so. The question that is being asked here is 'How do we deal with people taking an easy way out that is ultimately quite harmful to society?'. The answer is likely to provide an alternative that is just as easy (or more) while not being [as] harmful - which, is where Ayaan feels she has the answer with Christianity. I think us Athiests have to find a better answer.

[@robertlee4596]

I really enjoyed this discussion. To me, it is really important to understand that there are people with various abilities and intelligence. Some people, like Richard are able to understand evidence and the lack of evidence in religion. However, I believe religions were created because consciousness allows people to foresee their death and to fear death. If people are not capable of accepting death, then religion can give comfort. I agree with Ayaan that Islamism is dangerous and can fill a void if atheism does not adequately fill the void. Truth is a great thing, but there is a place for little white lies. If your wife asks if she looks good in a new dress and the truth is she does not, do you say the truth. Truth might not always be the right answer.

[@bobinator17]

I'm thankful that her psychiatrist found a way to help her out of her Suicidal crisis... However, I'm also saddened that it seems a Very Inteligent person has been indoctrinated by the mental health care which saved her life.

[@PriteshRathod9]

This is what all the radical religious people do to the psychologically weak people to convert. That's called grooming.

[@powersend]

It’s a message of weakness fear and subordination

[@nathanbell6962]

Yes perfectly put. God will humble you

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@clorofilaazul]

I'm so glad she wasn't the 5th horseman. One could say that "the Lord works in mysterious ways" 🤣 Not having her with Sam, Christopher, Richard and Dan in that famous encounter was quite a job on God's part.

[@nalbizo2]

I never want to hear her mentioned in the same breath as the Four Horsemen.

[@RubyNeumann]

So glad you hugged it out in the end. Awesome conversation... Thank you for sharing!

[@troubadour1562]

I'm glad she feels better about herself and if she wants to attribute that to Christianity, go for it. Personally I think she sounds silly and embarrassed trying and struggling to explain this to her once mentor.

[@VesnaVK]

I'm saddened that retreating into meaninglessness is what it took for her to feel better about herself.

[@DrSabriBebawi]

Ayaan, this idea that atheism creates a void that needs to be filled is a strange one; that void you care about should be filled with science, desire for knowledge, exploration, and decisions like this one.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@jasondads9509]

Her argument seems to be that people haven't done that, so we should fill it with Christianity otherwise others might fill it with something worse

[@thelifeandtimesofjames4273]

Key word in your statement: ‘should’. I feel it was the full and proper educations of the new atheists that led them to believe that once atheism took a rough hold (as I’d argue it has) that those left in the void would fill it with that same top level education. This did not happen.

[@ProudHumanism]

Why take what this woman says seriously?

[@LarsGsanger]

Dawkins is damned to Hell long ago!

[@michal88gno]

Good to have you sir Richard here on YT channel and thank you for sharing all of these materials. Thank you again also for „Gods delusion” which awaked me 6 years ago…

[@jenna2431]

She'll get more and better paying speaking invites as a "Christian".

[@Mauro_Veliz]

She's become a grifter once she joined PragerU.

[@thekennethofoz3594]

I am disappointed to see Ms. Ali's "conversion", but there is no reason to use ad-hominem attacks to discredit her. I take what she says as an honest change of opinion, and will do so until there is some definite evidence otherwise. As the saying goes, don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes. [ And, to finish the joke, because then they'll be a mile away from you, and you have their shoes 🙂

[@Tony11442]

That's what she's doing here.

[@ikhraamosman4479]

That is what she is doing. All for money and publicity. Dawkins was too kind to her.

[@petethepeg2]

Are you a Muslim ?

God bless you Ayaan, Richard and everyone reading this comment! :) Very nice conversation.

[@aroemaliuged4776]

She is no better than Hollywood She saw the dollars 💸

[@MrCanis4]

And the attention that actors always want.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@lalo4807]

Sounds like she needs money and decided that the best way to reached the goal is to write a book

[@petethepeg2]

Like Richard ?

[@thelifeandtimesofjames4273]

That’s a little cold no?

[@thomasgilson6206]

I was always vaguely aware that Ayaan was not entirely comfortable calling herself an Atheist.

[@xavierowino]

Great. So you are a mind reader?

[@jasondads9509]

Nor through this conversation does she seem to be feel comfortable about being a Christian

[@michael-yf8js]

“When you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy, ask yourself only what are the facts and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted either by what you wish to believe, or by what you think would have beneficent social effects if it were believed. But look only, and solely, at what are the facts” - Bertrand Russell

[@lacommedia41]

Interesting and helpful. In relation to contemporary moral thought it is interesting to note that little reference is made to the literature of the ancient Greeks, Plato in particular, and the root contribution such thought/philosophy made to the fabric of our modern culture.

[@mervinprone]

What exactly is happening here? Ayaan becomes a Christian, Dr Dawkins becomes a cultural Christian. What’s next?

[@janem5900]

Something not quite right is going on with Ayaan. Her recently acquired belief in a Christian god relies on cherry picking an ancient tome and ignoring the ongoing harm caused by Christianity. She asserts the existence of a god despite a total lack of evidence. Her story exposes a modern day sacrifice of rationality on the altar of credulity. Ayaan: "faith offers something.... tangible". No it doesn't. The bible states: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." The exact opposite to the meaning of "tangible". Richard Dawkins remains the trusted voice of honesty and reason. Ayaan's new found belief has eroded her integrity. In this debate she waffles and finds it difficult to explain herself. This is in contrast to her previous strong and articulate presentations prior to her conversion. Her claim that a belief in the unevidenced supernatural dimension, which is shared by Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus etc fills a vacuum is nonsensical. The fact religions makes truth claims that they cannot verify epitomises a "moral vacuum". The bible is a work of fiction about a genocidal maniacal god. Ayaan is disingenuous in her selective interpretation. The biblical character of Jesus was an emotional blackmailing control freak. Jesus is quoted in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Yet Christians try to dichotomise the Old and New Testaments. Matthew 10: 34 He is also quoted as saying: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." The multiple interpretations applied by Christians to these verses correlates to the 30 odd thousand Christian sects/cults. C'mon Ayaan - free your mind of the virulent impacts of religion. Steven Weinberg - 'With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.'

[@carrieohio]

Listen to what Dawkins says about Christianity already having gone through its main psycho phase hundreds of years ago, and how that means it's actually more advanced for having done that. He's saying it is a bulwark against worse faiths. Ali admits she was wrong to equate islam and Christianity for being equally awful. I'm glad she made that decision, because it is based on onservable evidence. Dawkins admits it's preferable. He is unable to acknowledge or does not believe that the reformation and softening of the Christian church through the years is linked with the enlightenment of Western culture, but she is right about that. IMO

[@xavierowino]

Get over it. She found atheism to be spirituality bankrupt.

[@Seekthetruth3000]

Nope! She is warning about the threat that Marxism and Islamism pose to humanity and Western Civilization.

[@abracadeborah7855]

@Xavier Roweno no, the psychiatrist told her she was spiritually bankrupt, extremely unethical and dangerous for any therapist to say to somebody at rock bottom. Love and support were needed, understanding, not religion.

[@efsbass]

@@xavierowinolol they’re so butt hurt 😂

[@shahidmiah917]

Ayaan spent the whole discussion attacking Islam, instead of tackling Atheism. Did she forget she came to talk to Dawkins?

[@Parsha-1]

Fabulous. Thank you Richard and Ayaan.

[@ubcphysicsyangbo]

Ayaan sounds like a sensitive millennial or gen-Z, unable to deal with her feelings, and have to resort to mumbo-jumbo to make her feel better, it’s really rather sad.

[@gideondavid30]

PEOPLE will suffer in this life. You say it is mere feelings, but when you lose a child or become crippled or become terminally ill, you will seek comfort and meaning. Athiesm has nothing to offer people in these conditions.

[@bobbart4198]

... To say that " There is SOMETHING, rather than NOTHING " may indeed be as valid as the scientific principles that are based upon some very different concepts of " Something " and " Nothing " - BUT how does that lead to not only Monotheism, but a very specific version of Monotheism ? ... That requires a conscious choice, and a rather emotional & personal one. And THAT is where the REAL illogical stuff comes in ...

[@spankduncan1114]

I feel for Ayaan. She's had a hard life and moved through that but didn't quite get there. She chose Christianity to get there. She referenced the love in Christianity and received applause for that. I gave up Christianity to, "get there". I've never experienced a lack of love without Christianity.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Richard bring who have sent forth! Who's TIME? I'LL WAIT RIGHT HERE!

[@CosmicTeapot]

Here's the TL;DR for anyone who might not have time for the full hour: Ayaan essentially went belief shopping, and picked Christianity as a faith à la carte, because she likes it the best. It was the best fit for her preexisting world views, and weapon to fight against her personal bogeymans. She spends the hour dodging Dawkins's questions and reformulating this same exact thing in 85 different variations.

[@memoryhero]

thx for the recap. i am exactly who dis would be for. i've known (about) Ayaan since the old days of the New Atheists and have been curious as to what all this conversion talk could possibly be about. i don't have the hour, but your summary was just about perfect. thx for putting it together. would be interested what Hitch would say to her now.

[@jacobfolkman3333]

She really can't just say she literally believes this stuff happened. She keeps going back to saying she chooses to believe. I'm not sure what that means or why she insists on making the distinction. I really think she's trying to disguise her political Christianity as sincere belief when it's not.

[@joelonsdale]

Thoroughly enjoyable video as always!

[@ngwee1]

At 47:30, Richard was like "How can you applaud that?" reminding me of one of his earlier appearance on another show. I sincerely hope her present condition is only temporary, and that she and Richard remain great friends.

[@aroemaliuged4776]

She is a perfectionist in Lies A Muslim woman that chooses lies when it suits her narrative I choose truth It doesn’t matter what religion or gender or country

[@Seekthetruth3000]

She is an ex-Muslim and is telling the truth.

[@nightmike7655]

It's so sad to see this, she speaks like someone who has fallen to total delusion. It makes me so sad, never heard Ayaan use fallacies and unreasonable arguments. My jaw dropped when in 35:27 she went with "you can't disprove God, therefore is reasonable to believe in him". I couldn't believe it.

[@KataNaLasJ]

It's really sad that we lost Ayaan. I also lost my dear friend to religion. She was also suffering from depression and chose the stories of Jesus and other bullshit over me. Apparently, it helped her with her depression. Richard is awesome, as always. And no,he is not on team Christianity

[@simonewernbacher6622]

I do have depression as well, am on medication, have a very good therapist (who thankfully does not want to sell a religion to me like some pyramid scheme). I had a brain tumour, medical science saved my life. the fact that there is NO „higher being“ or „something more“ makes this journey easier and more comforting for me. I have an explanation WHY this tumour grew inside of me. And it was not because „it was god will“ or „god was testing me“. I have the answer because of science. My 9 hour long surgery went well, not because „Jesus guided the surgeons hand“ but because he had the best scientific education and this built up for centuries! lol praying depression away….the easy way out apparently. zo each their own.

[@Alwaysdoubt100]

All religions are nonsensical, if a persona choose to believe or follow a religion then he is believing in a nonsense by option.

[@gideondavid30]

Athiesm is also nonsensical. Nothing created everything and that is more believable than intelligent design? Are you kidding me? It takes more faith to be an athiest.

[@Alwaysdoubt100]

@@gideondavid30 who told you atheists believe in created things? Your sentence of "atheists believes nothing created everything" is also nonsensical. Atheists dont believe things were created, they believe things evolved following what Nature provides.

[@zMarcusHD]

seems like she went through a traumatic experience with her depression. whatever spiritual development she did clearly helped her, but she could have just as easily been presented with a different flavour of religion, like Buddhism or Hinduism, and misinterpreted that specific religion as the cause of her miraculous recovery instead of clearly just correlating it with what by chance happened to be on the table in front of her at that time - Christianity. she's no longer engaging in any rational lines of thinking in her answers. like all Christian's, when faced with basic questions that require a logical answer, they pull out the ultimate get out of jail card - faith. in her case this is described as a different framework of thinking about reality that has arisen from her subjective experience of overcoming what seemed like an impossible obstacle. This just puts up a wall against any interrogation or criticism that says: I can't provide a rational explanation for my beliefs; It just feels good and it takes precedence over any kind of grounded logic, because if only you knew how powerful my feelings were, you would understand why logic is now secondarily important to me on this matter. There's no other matter in life where something of such consequence and significance could acceptably be explained by just having strong feelings. It may seem reductive to say her experience of what she's dressing up as a new framework of conscious understanding that has appeared to her so powerfully that it has taken precedence over her rational lines of thought, as just strong feelings, but that's exactly what they are: strong feelings that haven't been fully investigated, and instead have been filled up with the convenient benefits of Christianity which justify and empower these kinds of feelings and experiences of strong spiritual connection to life and it's beauty. And really as a former new atheist she should know how Christianity really isn't the best exploration of that anyway.

[@maciejszczudrawa7309]

Beautiful talk

[@bettymofokeng3404]

I applause Iyaan for the confidence of speaking and standing for what you believe, a personal encounter with Jesus never leave a person the same, Iyaan is a new creature in Christ, she is not the same one Richard knows

[@ALeaud]

I disagree with Ayaan completely.... but I totally get her point about how to fight against the Islamic-Woke alliance. I wish there was another way and I fear she might be right.

[@robinbeers6689]

There is no such alliance.

[@ALeaud]

@@robinbeers6689 Yes, there is. You clearly haven't been around woke leftists to see there absolutely it. I'm here in Canada and our most left-wing party is full of people who engage in genocide denial, cover for communist regimes like Cuba and call for the destruction of Israel while chanting Islamic slogans.

[@nicholasmacdonald1]

@@robinbeers6689 I’d describe it more as “opportunism” than “alliance”.

[@robinbeers6689]

@@nicholasmacdonald1 I'd describe it as a few mis-informed kids on college campuses wanting to feel like it is the 60s and they stand for something.

[@siamakzahraie717]

A very interesting discussion. A must watch and listen to program.

[@robertpotter3578]

You didn’t mention Chicago. I have tickets, so I sure hope you’ll be there!

[@lauraj8429]

58:40- to 59:09:: Nailed it Professor Dawkins and I love you for this. It is worth listening just to get to this part. Thank You.

[@stevehenderson1248]

...also, if you lack meaning and purpose in your life, maybe try to change your circumstances before turning to religion?

[@user-lh2og2ib1i]

It is the case that belief in a loving God and immortality makes one feel secure. Unfortunately it's not reality and choosing to believe it is real puts humanity in a very vulnerable position because we end up being dictated to by an endless stream of priests rabbis and imams professing false truths

[@incerix2953]

Wonderful listening to the various points of view but Richard is without a doubt in the correct frame of mind. I feel sorry Ali had to feel so low for so long that she needed some outside force to say the old "pray on it"

[@juleslu8403]

resigning to religion due to severe, long-lasting depression and / or heavy despair is so typical and merely a last-resort escape from reality. she is not convinced, she just doesn't know how else to mitigate her inner suffering.

[@efsbass]

And so? Does that make her any less of a human being?