From Mormon to Evangelical Christian - Rachel Wunderli pt 1 - 1611

[@j.alexander3001]

I'm a Catholic school theology teacher and I have been obsessively binging Mormon Stories for a month now. I grew up in a town with a sizeable LDS population. Many of my close friends from childhood were LDS. It has been so interesting to hear about these complexities. it's interesting to hear about the Mormon afterlife and the Evangelical afterlife as opposed to the Catholic afterlife. Catholics will hold hope that by the purgative process, and mercy of God, that it could be possible that no one is suffering in hell. Through purgation it's believed that everyone gets purged of any left over sins before heaven. Purgatory is the process after death when the soul encounters the loving light of God. The soul reacts to this loving light by embracing or rejecting it. That same loving light could feel like a heavenly warmth or hellish burn. Eventually, the burn will fade into the warmth as the soul is purged of sins. So everyone is clear. Limbo and purgatory are different. Limbo which is a completely different thing, *was a theory the Church held (limbo was never dogma, purgatory is). Limbo was where we thought good non-Christians went. Today we are devoted to interfaith dialogue and would affirm that there are truths in every Tradition. Some of these things reference the Deuterocanonical book of Maccabees. We kept 14 additional books in our Biblical Canon, and we also rely on the writings of early Church Father's who wrote in the years following the Apostles. The Didache is actually older than the Biblical Canon. Anyway, it's s just so fascinating hearing about all of the things LDS believes. I grew up around Mormons and saw many friends have a crisis of faith. I felt like we had some high control as Catholics, but at least we could fall back on our vices (caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, bingo) without anyone judging. But hey, both LDS and Catholics aren't strangers to families with busloads of children. Thank you for your fascinating series. I have gleaned a lot.

[@tamarahowell8683]

Once again, I feel so validated as an ex evangelical, about being traumatized by music. I’m so emotional and sensitive, and was even more so as a kid in Christian school and camps and church which made those intense, curated “Jesus moments” so much more overwhelming and it would fuel my depression because “personal worship” for me was just crying and feeling badly about all of my sin with worship music playing on my mp3. Even now, I don’t listen to Christian music any more, but I feel like I have to be cautious about what I listen to because it causes more than what I would consider a normal emotional reaction to beautiful or sad songs.

[@kassiefuller9729]

I resonate so deeply with this.

[@tamarin2693]

I'm from South Africa and was part of Charismatic/evangelical church for over 20 years l. We raised our 3 children biblically and our whole life revolved around Jesus. I am finally seeing I'm not the only one who had such intense Jesus moments with the worship in church. I cant listen to Christian music anymore i feel like I have ptsd from all the years of indoctrination. We are still a tight knit family and have open conversations about the years as Christians. I'm thankful that they can view life from a different perspective even though we lost many many friends a long the way since in their eyes we have lost our way/salvation. It can be a very lonely road

[@raelie90]

Praying you find God outside of music. I did. Worship was what drew me in, but research, reading the Bible, listening to people’s near death experiences, and praying and asking God to show himself, you can ask him! He shows up randomly. I was an ex Mormon turned atheist. The real God, not religion, is available if you look. Praying you open your heart and mind to the possibility again. He’s so real. Satan has convinced you otherwise. I pray God to reveal yourself to everyone here. Supernaturally. Thank you Jesus.

[@letahamilton]

Every time I listen to one of your long form interviews, I am always mystified the subscriber numbers aren’t closer to a million on Mormon Stories. They’re just so thought provoking. Deep dives into these lives is truly healing. Keep it up. You are making a difference.

[@coldwar45]

It’s a niche subject, plus most people see the length and go “no thanks” these days unfortunately.

[@Fatfinger4378]

@@coldwar45 You're probably correct, but I am the opposite. To me, this is what MS is all about, long form, deep dive, faith transition stories. So I hope they will keep them coming!

[@jeffthechristian3010]

@@coldwar45 It's shocking how much John and his cohorts can draw out of people. These long interviews are unbelievable.

[@soniamichael7839]

@@coldwar45😂 gusty M

[@kellyjustice5271]

Best episode since carah left. Intimate details by a great story teller is what mormon stories is made of!

[@elise12345]

John, I grew up evangelical at a non-denominational church and it's actually super complex how the definitions fit together. Denominations themselves can be fundamentalist (evangelical) or theologically liberal. The word evangelical has more to do with doctrine than style. Denominations exist on several different spectrums. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is fundamentalist and liturgical, so they have a literal bible interpretation and follow the church liturgy calendar for their worship service. The Evangelical (misnomer) Lutheran Church of America is not fundamentalist but is liturgical, so they have a view of the bible as inspired but not literal and still follow the church liturgy calendar for their worship service. Southern Baptists are fundamentalist and not liturgical, so they have literal bible views but their services are not as formulaic and usually follow sermon series and not the Church calendar. The non-denominational mega church movement that began in the 1980s led to creation of lots of different styles of churches, but they had many things in common. Most are non-liturgical and have large worship music programs. The governance (polity) of the church may be a board of elders or it may be just the guy who started the church. When you are part of a denomination, it usually means you agree to a set of common beliefs about some of the less central points of the faith. When you are non-denominational, it can be more difficult to know what a church believes and if that has changed over time. A lot of people who had bad experiences in denominations find their way to non-denominational churches where they might feel less triggers. Most protestant christian churches would affirm the nicene creed and apostles creed. This is one reason why protestants don't see LDS as Christian - because of the views of the trinity. The following are areas for disagreement, difference of opinion, or intense clashes: Baptism: infant baptism v. believers baptism Salvation: calvinism v. arminianism (some people see more of a spectrum) Polity: Episcopal/Connectional/Presbyterian/Congregational Gender Roles: Complementarianism (male led) v. Egalitarianism (equality) LGBTQ: traditional v. affirming Inerrancy of Scripture: literal Bible reading v. inspired Bible reading Worship Style: Liturgical following the lectionary v. not (non-liturgical sermons tend to be either exegetical [going through the scripture sections in sequence] or topical [prayer, anger, etc]) It goes beyond all this of course. We love our infighting. If you want any suggestions of books to read about our mess of history - not belief, but practice - just let me know! There are plenty I think you'd like and get a lot from. Mormon stories has been huge in my switch from a non-denominational Acts29 church plant to a mainline, liturgical, affirming, egalitarian, progressive church.

[@mormonstories]

I would love to meet you some day @Elise. You are brilliant. John

[@jeaninecookson167]

Well stated Elise. I’m currently worshipping in a bible church but was ordained as an elder in Presbyterian church USA many years ago. Denominations evolve over time and split as you well know. What so many Americans and American Christians don’t seem to remember is that we are all a bunch of misfits…..there will never be a perfect church…..exactly why we need Jesus. But Jesus is not here to allow us to live in our sin either. Our love for the Lord helps us grow and mature into better people too. People will always disappoint, Jesus has never changed or disappointed.

[@CHiCguitar]

I never thought of my upbringing as fundamentalist, but I grew up LCMS and things truly are so formulaic. It wasn't particularly faith-affirming because if you go to church enough you memorize the words you have to say. They don't mean anything anymore. However, that same fact is why leaving the church was such a gradual and generally not particularly painful experience for me. I never found my church to be a cult-like experience. What made me leave was a fundamental disagreement on what I believe are human rights and what I believe is fact, which was not the Bible. I believe in egalitarianism, which the LCMS church very much does not. However, I have been to many non-denominational services in my life and I have to tell you, I HATED it. It was so weird to see people feeling the spirit like that. Being faithful in public was not something I saw growing up. We didn't really talk about church outside of church. I don't know it's a very, very strange upbringing. I'd love to be interviewed about it. I have a lot to say.

[@elise12345]

@@mormonstories likewise!

[@carlawarner972]

Thank you Elise for clarifying and providing more specific information. I attended a nondenominational Christian church where our pastor teaches directly from the Bible. I would like to add that salvation isn’t as simplistic as the guest describes. It includes confessing one is a sinner and believes Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and ask Christ into our life. The concept of the Trinity is not easy to comprehend but Christians believe in the trinity. God is a heavenly being/spirit. Jesus is God in man form. The Holy Spirit is God in spirit from who is our helper in our Christian walk.

[@reezka68]

Never Mormon, never Christian. Loved Rachel’s story. Thanks for you generous spirit! LOVE her singing! Thanks 😊

[@jonycruz2430]

Where is her singing?

[@amandascharf3870]

A bit of different perspective here (having grown up liberal Christian): Grace is how everyone is saved (death of Jesus), and it is up to each individual to accept that Grace and receive salvation (Believe it in your heart and confess it with your mouth). Purity culture was not something encouraged in my faith growing up, though there were many fundamentalist Christians surrounding me whose families and congregations DID encourage it. It all stemmed from wanting to emulate Christ because a "true believer" would do everything in their power to act as Jesus would have (thus the WWJD? hit in the mid-90s). Evangelism is meant to pertain to spreading the Bible around the world, but it has come to mean any ultra-conservative purity-focused, numbers-focused church (at least, in my own personal observations). Thank you for another great interview!!!

[@nathananderson3695]

Former Mormon here turned Christian, specifically Baptist. Coming out of Mormonism I was an agnostic. However after reading deeply into Christian apologetics (Craig, Lennox, Groothius, CS Lewis, Behe, Strobel, St. Augustine, etc.) I believe that there is a significant non-zero probability that the Christian worldview is true and placed my faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord (think Pascal's wager). This was a great episode but a couple of points come to mind. First, Christian's don't live in sin because of our love for Jesus. Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by grace of faith in Jesus alone but walk in Christ because we love him, John 14:15. Second, my problem with the modern evangelical Christian movement is demonstrated in Rachel's story. It is an emotional conversion only, not a conversion of the intellect to Christ. The truth of Christianity is reduced to how a person feels at any particular moment but the Bible's underlying message is that God actually came in human form to save sinners and that this can be known through careful thought and reflection on facts.

[@1themadbluebird]

Why don’t you join and practice every other religion then, in case they are true? Pascal’s wager is not worthy of a junior high philosophy essay. First, it assumes there is an omniscient, all-powerful deity who will give eternal punishment based on what a person believes, which on its own is an absurd assumption with no evidence. Even if that were true, how can a person *choose* what to believe? If you think something is true, you think it’s true. If you don’t, you don’t. If you’re not sure, you’re not sure. Why would an omniscient god reward those humans who “chose” to believe he existed even if they didn’t? None of it makes any sense.

[@earlthompson5420]

All my Family are Mormons and i was raised in a all LDS community. I wasn’t raised Mormon my Dad left the church from high school. I grew up in a life without structure and around crime but at the same time at a young age felt judged and treated as a outsider from my extended family. As i got older and reflected i realized how grateful i am to God for blessing me with free will to choose! Though the road has alot of ruts and bumps its in those moments i learned to trust that God is in control and these challenges are there for my spiritual growth. I often think about the parable of the prodigal son and how we all can somewhat relate to it. I believe in serendipity and the polarity of opposites. i couldn’t imagine my life not being able to experience every flavor/challenges that life has for each and every one of us…

[@jbdenning]

Great, video, I've been enjoying the last month of content a lot! Regarding the section of the video called "secular development" where John laments how he wishes that secular people could have the structure the church does that keeps teenagers away from drugs, unsafe or nonconsensual sex, etc: I disagree with John that avoiding all sex, drugs, and college frats is a good thing. And I do not blame Rachel's horrible experiences while at the U on her lack of church structure. Instead, I actually blame the church and also the secular education system for this. The church and many public schools teach abstinence, which means that the relevant information that would have been useful to Rachel was not given to her. She lost her family support and didn't have anywhere to live because the church taught her parents that the way to deal with "disobedient, rebellious kids" is to shun them. The solution to society's problems for teenagers wrt sex/drugs is to emphatically teach consent, provide as much information as possible about both sex and drugs, and destigmatize experimentation. Not all teenage sex is equally unsafe or risky or nonconsensual, but abstinence teaches that all teenage sex is the same. Not all drugs are the same, but mormons think they are. So when a mormon kid is rebellious, they might think that marijuana is the same as heroine even though heroine can literally kill you and also is addictive enough to radically impact your life. What teenagers need is adults who will give them honest information and emotional support, without all the coercive elements that come with the parent/child relationship. I think that drugs might be a topic where John has less lived experience to lean on and so he's possibly not as aware of how high-demand religions *create* problematic relationships with drugs, rather than avoiding them. If someone like Rachel was raised in a situation where drugs and sex were not so extremely taboo, and information was freely available, and they weren't shunned for trying those things, and the risks of drug use were properly explained without any coercive elements, then I think they'd be far more likely to have a healthy life than if they grow up in an abstinence culture. This isn't hate, John. It's okay we disagree. Just sharing my perspective.

[@sowellfan]

Exactly. John always goes on & on about how will he was set up for life, and attributing that to the LDS church. Problem is, that's an n of 1 with *zero* controls, zero comparisons to other people who were raised in healthy supportive *non*-religious families. John always wants to point to these examples where a person had a terrible unstable life - but then the Mormon church gave the necessary structure. Like, "Oh, look at how Bob's life was improved drastically when he joined the LDS church, coming from a family where his mom sniffed glue all day and there was a succession of men coming thru to beat him whilst also paying the rent." - then there's the obligatory, "See, what'd I tell you, bad structure is better than no structure." Again, what about the families who *aren't* religious but raise their kids to be moral upstanding people who get good jobs and live happy lives, free of substance addictions and such? John & guest talk about all the energy spent on philosophical questioning - but seem to ignore the energy spent on dealing with the demands on a high-demand religion. I can tell you that, since leaving evangelical Christianity, I don't have to stress a lot about my morality. And I'd have the same doubts about career, who to marry, etc., either way.

[@jbdenning]

@@sowellfan I personally wouldn't go quite as hard in eviscerating John haha. I do think John has flaws and blind spots, like we all do. And that maybe this is one where the objects in the mirror are a little bit closer than they appear to him (if you'll forgive my car pun haha). And I even was bothered by it enough to make my original comment. But I view John as just not as aware of these issues, or that he simply disagrees or believes that it's possible for religions to provide good structure. He often admits he's never tried extramarital sex, alcohol or cannabis or any other drugs, and so his perspective on them is possibly still clouded by the propaganda he was raised in. I also view it as possible that I am unaware of some things since I'm not a parent of a teenager and so maybe my judgment of strict parenting surrounding these topics is undeserved, overly harsh, or unempathetic to parents. Your comment seemed to possibly go further into generalizing John's behavior as consistently horrible, though, which is where I think we differ.

[@Momster89]

Watching all these stories, anyone who fails to see the LDS religion as a cult, is sad and scary.

[@kylewyatt1732]

Or just about any religion, to be fair.

[@astridburke3616]

Listening to the grandma going to hell part, it reminded me of when my grandpa passed away. My grandpa was a devout Catholic, work at the church and was a righteous man. My cousin who has just converted to evangelical Christianism and became a pastor kinda implied that he was sad that my grandpa was going to go to hell, because he worshiped images.

[@LoraleeArmstrongNunley]

I totally relate. Grew up in CA and moved to Utah my sophomore year of HS. Church was so different in Utah than it was in CA.

[@user-jo9ex2ce6j]

How so could u elaborate ?

[@srock7967]

I’m from the East Coast and converted to Mormonism for 12 years. We just left a couple years ago. Every single member, I’ve met during that time has been extremely sincere in their beliefs and dedicated to their faith. They truly love Jesus and love serving others. It seems to me that members outside of Utah are more authentic & transparent. It’s like there’s no societal pressure to be an active member when you don’t live in an area surrounded by only Mormons. People outside of Utah don’t go to church if they don’t want to. The ones that go & are active participants, are doing so out of desire and not obligation.

[@Melanie-ho4dq]

To me the assumption that morals and values aren't available in a secular upbringing is a bit strange. You don't need a myth to have values and be a good person.

[@BlakePizzey]

This is too weird... I served my mission in SLCS and served in her ward in 2010. I just checked my planner and turns out we met with her family a few times. Her mom kept wanting us to come back and teach her but she was never home. I knew she looked familiar! Too weird. Small world. Glad she's out though!!

[@honeyduchess]

Rachel, I heavily relate to your story about trying to drink yourself to death. When I was 20 at byu hawaii I did the same thing, took every drug I could drank as much as I could every night, never ate or did anything to take care of myself. I developed serious health issues that still affect me today and being hospitalized is what it took for me to stop. It’s a hard pill to swallow that this is a form of attempting su*cide. I thought because I wasn’t overtly trying to take my life it was somehow better. If you think someone is going overboard with partying, ask if they are ok!!! Chances are they aren’t just trying to “have fun”.

[@jayderay2682]

Hello, God Bless you for being open with your story. I’m an investigative journalist, and would love to ask you about your time at BYU Hawaii. If not, I can totally understand. If so, please email me! My name @gmail. Your identity will not be asked to be revealed. Thank you.

[@cherylpromesberger9878]

So many times while watching this I had one thought come to my head over and over. “Give up on them, they are lost” That’s literally the LDS churches stance cause it’s the easiest one. Of coarse leave the 1 cause it’s to dangerous to walk away from “the path”, if only they knew they are protected through Jesus and can go out and help the lost.

[@deannapowell7237]

You nailed it, John. Why do you need to have a religion based on myth to form morals and ethics, and get to age 26 (fully formed brain) without falling into potholes! I was raised in my "high demand religion" of Independent Baptist in a very small town. I was highly indoctrinated and thought I was "accepting Christ and my personal savior" at age 6 and then got baptized at age 7, where I had to tell people my life had changed. Hahaha!! It makes me physically il now when I think about it. And then when I struggled in my teens and early twenties (sexuallyassaultedmany times just like this gal), I was made to feel like it was my fault because I had "strayed." I am 46 now, and I slowly started deconstructing in 2015-2016 when Donald Trump was running for office, and when my parents voted for him that's when my faith completely crumbled. That when I realized Christianity is complete bullshit. That's when I started listening to Richard Rohr and from there started listening to Mythvision Podcast where I learned the Bible stories, both Old and New Testaments, are based on myth and not even written by the book names. Ya, the creation story, the flood, Jesus's virgin borth, death and resurrection? All myth. I still struggle with how I could have believed such unbelievable stories, except that we were TRAINED not to question or think critically. I'm still so angry about it. But at the same time, the freedom I feel is incredible....and realizing that my morals and ethics don't come from any kind of religion. They come from humanity....fr9m being a human who wants to be treated the same way I will treat others. How simple is that. Anyway, I can really relate to he lr story.

[@deannapowell7237]

And now I know why I love Coldplay so much!!! OMG....

[@aceshigh5157]

great episode. i especially enjoyed hearing her story about joining a different church after leaving mormonism. would have been interested to hear more about the psychology behind this, why we keep recreating the same situations with different people/culture and how to stop making the same mistakes over and over again.

[@kambreemiller1389]

My maiden name is Wunderly (though my grandfather changed it from Wunderli to Wunderly when he moved to the US from Switzerland. You don't see the name too often. I'm excited to listen to her story!

[@maggielovestoads]

My mother's friend has a daughter who's first name is Wunderly. I always thought it was such a unique name, now I'm wondering if it is a family name!

[@letahamilton]

You are probably related!

[@boydx4687]

Music saved my life too! Music and Mother Nature; Thanks for another great interview.

[@scottbrandon6244]

Less shame if living outside Utah at 40:25. I have heard the same thing. If you can go a week without seeing one person from your ward that can be a blessing. You don't feel as if you under surveillance all the time.

[@CB-jg6xg]

Wow! Where do you find these incredible people. So grateful to hear people’s stories and opinions I never would have otherwise.

[@toxica3607]

I enjoy all the personal stories here very much. Such strong and vibrant personalities, so much suffering and confusion. As being from a broken family myself, I can often so much relate to the magnetism a system like Mormonism has on a young girl. I admire the braveness and power these young women showed on their ways to their personal place of peace in this world and just like to send them all some positive energy for their futures. 💖

[@UntilTheSilence]

I thought her voice was going to be "just fine". Whoa -- I could listen to her voice all day, too

[@kathrynclass2915]

I can’t wrap my head around why whether or not a person enjoyed the sexual experience or how much they enjoyed it has anything to do with worthiness. I mean… is there a scale of worthiness according to if you liked it or not? Where 10 being “I liked it immensely” means a greater punishment and 1 being “I didn’t enjoy it at all” means no punishment. It’s the same as “if you cry I’m going to give you something to really cry about” kind of punitive treatment except I’m this case it’s “if you really liked it I’m going to give you’d something to cry about.” It emotionally abusive and sets a person up for unhealthy associations with their sexuality

[@marleymae6746]

I thought she was Miley Cyrus. She looks and sounds a lot like her.

[@Bry_bryyy04]

I agree with this similarity

[@user-bw3fl7fj9w]

Yes, since reading this I keep thinking about it!

[@krystalokada]

That was my immediate thought!

[@mirando100]

Excellent singer

[@CHiCguitar]

edit: I would like to add that evangelism has to do with the conviction and acts associated with spreading the word of God and converting people to whatever belief they're speaking about. Mormons are probably this world's biggest evangelizers. Think about the Lutherans.. you rarely see or even hear about people trying to convert others to being Lutheran unless they have a really strong conviction to do so. However, there is a certain amount of shame attached to being someone who struggles with evangelism. I know this is Mormon stories, but I think it would be so interesting for you John, with all the questions you were asking, to interview an ex-Lutheran (especially LCMS) or ex-Catholic. Baptism and Communion are VERY different in these denominations to the modern evangelicals and non-denominational church. I grew up LCMS and baptism was to us a literal "washing away of original sin." Like they believe the water is blessed and it washes away the sin you're born with that was given to us by Adam and Eve. Confirmation (which was first communion for us) doesn't happen until you're 14 at the end of the school year. It's the culmination of two years of weekly education over the catechism and we literally had to give a testimony (we didn't call it that though) and answer questions about the catechism in front of the whole congregation. It was so scary like we were already studying for school and we had to study for church too. But that was our like official acceptance of Jesus so to speak and effectively taking accountability for our own faith. But anyway, I still think it would be so fascinating for you personally, John!!

[@jeff-fah-fah]

2:40:42 The terms "evangelical" and "non denominational" mean different things but often overlap, so they are easily conflated. Evangelical refers to the doctrine of bringing others to Christ or spreading the gospel. Non denominational means their polity is independent of any denomination's political structure and bound to any specific denominational doctrine. Non-denominational churches are usually autonomous congregations.

[@sallyostling]

A Mormon influencer called exmo's "victim Olympians". That was so offensive, but sitting in their seat, comfortable... that's a popular opinion. I wish there wasn't such a divide and judgement.

[@jesse1008]

This sounds silly but I get “ the feels “ listening to Elvis Presley now lol. The power of his voice and Charisma gets me emotional every time. It has replaced some spirituality. Seriously though

[@ChrisS-dt3vq]

I grew up in Iowa. Found that the Midwesterners we're more dedicated than the Utah Mormons.

[@srock7967]

I’m from the East Coast and converted to Mormonism for 12 years. We just left a couple years ago. Every single member, I’ve met during that time has been extremely sincere in their beliefs and dedicated to their faith. It seems to me that members outside of Utah are more authentic & transparent. It’s like there’s no societal pressure to be an active member when you don’t live in an area surrounded by only Mormons. People outside of Utah don’t go to church if they don’t want to. The ones that go & are active participants, are doing so out of desire and not obligation.

[@victoriairias7703]

2:21:35 she yes can be used by God so much. But we have to remember we are doing it for him to speak his truth to the world. But with His strength not ours, lets not pretend we are the heroes, but only Jesus.

[@danijadedd]

OMG! I was at the same Coldplay concert in Chicago! There must be something to that and leaving Christianity!

[@1hourdryfloors786]

Cut hair, take about 10 pounds off her, deepen her voice just a little bit, have her say a few cuss words and we got a Miley Cyrus double. She is amazing! So open and transparent and genuine. Just beautiful person inside and out. Thank you for sharing your story and providing such interesting insight. You’ve definitely given me a new perspective on my own personal spiritual journey. Hope to find your tik tok or see more of you on YT in the future.

[@rogandbingofbingalahtravel3680]

Jen Mormon has a good ring to it!

[@kensantarelli2013]

2:56:50 That was the first time I've ever heard that song sung in English. They sang that in Spanish when I lived in Chile and attended Calvary Chapel / Capilla Calvario briefly. I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite), but my church had no congregations in Chile. Very interesting story.

[@klggrabo]

Would love to see you interview an ex-Fundamentalist Baptist 😊

[@makegoodfashion]

Christianity is believing in Jesus + Repentance

[@Elizardbeth03]

My church always said "you don't have to be in church to get saved" in order to explain why God isn't bad for sending people to hell for never hearing the gospel and yet they never actually followed through on that doctrine

[@jamescboyd]

She’s an awesome singer.

[@larryballard4475]

I attended several Christian churches after leaving Mormonism. I too felt the love and support being more unconditional. I always had a propensity to consider the Grace thing over the works based attitude of Mormonism. John, if you want to gain some perspective regarding why Oasis and Thrive are not taking over the world, consider reading the book How Religion Evolved And Why It Endures by Robin Dunbar. The final chapter deals with this issue directly. The final words of the book are, "In short, it is difficult to see any convincing evidence for anything that will replace religion in human affairs. Religion is a deeply human trait. The content of religion will surely change over the longer term, but, for better or for worse, it is likely to remain with us." There have been numerous attempts at creating secular community. Pretty much all have failed. Maybe reading this book, should you choose to do so, would allow you to narrow your scope or at least be more patient with yourself and people and maybe take some time to understand the implications of religion and the unfortunate mind warping propensity that our species has in leaning towards myth and illusion over a more reasoned approach.

[@valsim]

Jen’s point about the plan for women being different and the additional burdens on women was sooooo poignant!

[@katrinakoch6468]

No member of the church will ever make a serious mistake without first being warned by the Holy Ghost. I was warned 3 times by the Spirit it took me back.

[@glutenfreesnark]

She may not have joined a Pentecostal church....but she was at a Pentecostal church lol that worship music just does something to you

[@aceshigh5157]

John mentioned that there was no manual for atheists, and there is... in the form of a 12 step group (Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families). The focus is on emotional sobriety, spirituality, individuation and belief system. There is a strong community there too. Seems to match the criteria he gave.

[@CentaurTesticles]

Which is a Christian program, no?

[@aceshigh5157]

@@CentaurTesticles no, you get to choose your higher power. it could be a doorknob, your intuition, gravity, math, the sun etc.

[@PNW_Fiddle]

Atheists might be looking for "no higher power". @@aceshigh5157

[@millerfamilytrees]

I think the double life thing is because most people in any relgion don't actually believe it. I feel like the people on this pod generally are the type that have integrity and conviction. There are plenty of people who are tolerant with duplicity or don't even notice it or care either way.

[@kathyminassian1375]

Loved this, can’t wait for the continuation in part 2.

[@Serve24]

No no no, Christians do not believe that we’re broken and we can all just stay that way because Jesus saves us. She misunderstood this. After you believe in Jesus, you are saved by faith and gain eternal life. But James 2 describes saving faith, in which a person who is saved will be filled with the Holy Spirit and begin the process of sanctification. This is a lifelong process of becoming more and more free of sin and bondage, and gaining more and more joy and freedom in Christ. As we are sanctified, we will desire good works, and we will produce good fruit in our lives (not by our own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit within us). This sweet girl has never known the true Jesus and the freedom and joy He offers. I pray she finds it someday.

[@coffeewmike]

This story is good. I was an LDS convert that left a little over two years in and had a similar post-faith experience. Bishop did NOT like that I questioned JS.

[@busheslouise]

Im SO sorry that was her Christian experience. From what she tells she was only given bits and pieces.😢

[@townsendv58]

I worked for a brewery/ pub chain in the UK whilst I was a Mormon. That was back in the 1980s.when the job market was tight. I have worked for a couple of breweries since then on a temporary basis. I now have more of an issue with the marketing of alcohol to certain potential customers (linking alcoholto sports) than I did then.

[@2listening1]

0:32 Consent is so important .... ✔️

[@amberbenson7885]

this story makes me so sad for her. the way she describes the church she was involved in, is nothing like what most believers in Christ attend. I've never visited a church that would have tracked me down on my first visit to come be a part of the worship team with no conversation with me about my faith. I'm sure untangling her time as a mormon was very difficult when like you said the cultures themselves are so completely different. but she mentioned a couple of times being able to "live in sin" and it wasn't a big deal because of Jesus sacrifice. That's not what's taught or encouraged. Not because you need works to enter into eternity in Jesus, but because God's law and the example of Jesus during His time here with us, give us guidelines to live in freedom and joy. as a believer you'll often hear people say "bad theology hurts people." that's what keeps coming to mind as she's talking. bad theology. just like she talked about its about where your pastor went to seminary and how he interprets scripture. but if your pastor interprets incorrectly and you aren't taught to read and study independently to verify what you're being taught-we should all be able and encouraged to do that. men are fallible. we are ALL sinners. none worse than another. but God's Word is true and perfect. and we can read and understand it without a priest or pastor or bishop or whatever it is you have.

[@lesliecardwell2653]

Sorry but this is not correct information about what it means “being saved”

[@timisa58]

I have heard how the LDS support the men far and above women in relationships. To the point where the divorced woman is ostracized while the man is held up and supported. Of course, this is indicative of a patriarchal organization where men can do very little or no wrong. Obscene. I agree with Rachel. Some or most members don't want to hear why you are leaving. They are afraid of the reasons. This type of behaviour always reminds me of how fragile or non-existent believer's faith is or relationship with his/her god is. Traditional Christian salvation recipe is not un-conditional. You MUST believe in Jesus as the saviour, god. Also, think about this, failure to do this simple thing results in ETERNAL TORMENT. Anything that you do that is consistent with sin is ignored and forgiven...but not believing alone, is enough to damnation. Traditional Christianity dismisses personal responsibility in the end. It doesn't matter what you do in life??? Really??? Once again, obscene.

[@katherineburford7864]

Science for the Church is a deep rich website.

[@jodybrassfield5194]

Amazing!!!

[@4beachpeaches]

If you ever become an “ex Christian” then you were never truly saved. A person who has truly surrendered to Jesus Christ and allowed Him to be Lord of his/her life; e.g, truly born again, will never and has never denounced or left following Christ. What these people experience is false conversion, which is truly heartbreaking.

[@a.f.dacosta1605]

2:14:23 So sad to hear how these evangelical/ non dominational churches preach a gospel like this… and it is clear to me why they gain so much new members.. Jesus Christ does not want us to remain in darkness and brokenness (even though we are with failure), but he wants us to become more and more like him. And that will cost us sooo much. But he also fillls us with sooo much!!! And it is true, it is not about works and religion, it is truly about relationship. He wants our heart (check out in hebrew) and not our works. He wants us to believe in what he had done on the cross for us.. all this (our heart deeply connected to him,to his words) will ALWAYS lead us through the Holy Spirit to a new self…always will lead us to DO acts of love, service and more. This is the gospel..and I am sad to hear, that pastors preach in this kind of way… I am an ex Mormon, just signed out a couple of days, and I will get baptized on Sunday in a non dominational baptist church.

[@rivkahmiri513]

Beautiful voice!

[@Marenlauder1]

I went to my Junior Prom with Rachel’s cousin Bret (Earl’s oldest son). Very clever family.

[@maggielovestoads]

Never Mormon here. At 47:19 when it's mentioned about as a teen being interviewed about worthiness, does this mean that in the church you have check ins about where you're at/level of worthiness/etc. or is it more so just in reference to feeling guilty of leading a "rebellious" life and hiding that from adults in the church? Anyone who can clarify or give me more insight, much thanks!!!

[@Zelph_undying]

Been a minute since I was involved in the youth program, but as I recall, “worthiness interviews” were typically conducted; 1) en masse before a youth temple trip (to do baptisms for the dead) and annually thereafter; or 2) after you confessed to a sin, typically viewing porn, masturbation, going too far with a partner, homosexual thoughts, etc, and then would continue through the Bishop's proscribed period of repentance.

[@maggielovestoads]

@@Zelph_undying thank you so much!! I figured that was the case, but I wasn’t sure if it was like as a teen you have to have meetings with bishop bricks or whatever about your worthiness in general/without the context of temple visits or having confessed for breaking things. On group trips to the temple for baptisms, what happened if you didn’t have any deceased family to proxy baptize, would you just not go?

[@Mon-Alisa]

@@maggielovestoads They usually have names that other people have submitted to the temple that you can do the work for if you don’t have names from your own family (which was pretty much every single time for me, personally).

[@Mon-Alisa]

@@maggielovestoads Also, the church guidelines are that youth should be interviewed at least once a year, but ideally twice a year. 🤦‍♀️

[@maggielovestoads]

@@Mon-Alisa thank you so much for the info, it’s much appreciated!!!

[@brucee8332]

Phil Visscher has put out a pretty good KZbin video about what Evangelical Christianity is. While all us Christians can claim the name evangel, "good news," a group of Christians grabbed the title Evangelical for themselves and founded the NAE (National Association of Evangelicals). They have a list of beliefs, to which many of us Christians do not ascribe, including Biblical Inerrancy, and the requirement of believing in Jesus to be saved.

[@marialegare3954]

Um, those are... kind of part of basic Christian orthodoxy... having to believe in Jesus is, anyway, with biblical inerrancy it depends on how you define it. If you don't believe that, you can't claim evangel, because the good news IS Jesus! He's the whole point! And no, I didn't grow up in the States, so this isn't just me speaking from a big-E Evangelical perspective.

[@llt8101]

Actually, in Evangelicalism/ Protestantism you don't need to be in a church to "get saved"/ ""accept Jesus into your life". Growing up an Evangelical, I "accepted Jesus" anywhere that I was. It could even be while praying over my meal or while saying my bedtime prayer or anything. As a child, I was unfortunate enough to hear one of those pastors who claims that you can never be too sure and that any time that you question at all, you should accept Jesus again. I'm so glad that, that life is behind me. It was so nerve racking.

[@danielmeakin]

Being saved can be difficult to comprehend as a mormon or post/ex mormon because of how simple it is compared to mormonism salvation. I'll add in case it helps anyone else: Salvation happens the moment you believe Jesus's Gospel message, that He overcame all your temptations in the flesh, suffered the penalty of sin on your behalf as God, and rose again on the third day. The moment you believe it the first time you are saved. You may respond to that in different ways (raising your hand, praying for forgiveness, maybe you get emotional maybe you don't). The salvation is in the belief/faith/trust in Jesus which is internal it may or may not manifest externally in many different ways for different people. To me whether Mormons are saved depends on whether they have believed the above message. You'd have to ask a Mormon if they believe those are the tenets of their salvation. If they disagree they may not be saved i think as a devout Mormon I didnt have faith that my salvation was that simple. The Bible does say Jesus went to teach the Gospel to the spirits in prison (Hell?) so i have hope for those who have died without receiving the Gospel.

[@jlewis8145]

We know three things for sure about the spirits mentioned in 1 Peter 3:19. They are incorporeal, they are imprisoned, and their sin was committed before the Flood. The spirits in prison were demons. They did not repent. Jesus proclaimed his victory over them. "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 Jesus said that there were no second chances. The rich man was already in torment in hell. Luke 16

[@heidisexton5928]

Love Jenn!

[@srock7967]

I think it’s unfair to say Mormons aren’t Christians. I realize that there was a distinction in the early days of Mormonism where they didn’t want to be seen as Christians because the LDS Church isn’t a Protestant denomination. And I also understand that the church sort of switched gears to wanting to be part of Christianity, and that could’ve possibly been a marketing tactic. HOWEVER, the definition of a Christian means a few certain beliefs, and all Mormons I know and being part of the church for 12 years, I know not one who doesn’t hold those tenants. If you believe Jesus is Gods son, was born of a virgin, was crucified, died and rose again on the 3rd day and accept him as your lord and savior, then you are a Christian. This applies to all religions, including Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Amish and etc. It’s not a prerequisite for the religion to a branch of Protestantism to be considered Christianity. We left the church a couple years ago, and even with all their faults, I still feel they are certainly Christians.

[@educationallie9149]

i always wondered if you were going to be with their spouse and then our kids get married and have their own spouses and kids and on and on....whose spouses and children belong to who? I mean my spouse is the child of different parents so how do we both get to stay with eachother and our kids....such cognitive dissonance.

[@astral7080]

excellent!!

[@marleymae6746]

I’m ex Mormon now Christian. The reason you don’t sin is because you love Christ, and he DIED for that sin. Comes from a pure motive not I’m not gonna sin so I can get a planet. It’s like having a kid take care of you when old because they love you verses take care of you so they aren’t kicked out of the will.

[@sharaharper2253]

That kid is looking after you because they don’t want to get kicked into hell for eternity.

[@s.a3099]

I’m curious- do you seriously believe you no longer sin, ever?

[@letahamilton]

I can’t believe that a Jesus character actually went on a cross & died for my sins. Nope. Historical dude who died in a common way for that time, yeah, I can see that happening. Bible book was written by dudes hundreds of years later. Not some channeled thing. So much life to experience outside of religion. I love my non-theist existence that has no blood magic mixed in there with some sick ass blood atonement that is just weird & follows on from traditions in a geographic region that were part of the culture before a Jesus guy came onto the scene.

[@gemma6161]

@@s.a3099 From an evangelical standpoint, no. When you sin, you confess your sins to God; the price was paid at the cross. There is no more condemnation spiritually - but that won’t necessarily free you from any earthly social or legal consequences. The doctrine of grace sometimes gets interpreted as a get out of jail free card. It’s not. Hope that helps.

[@kimberboyer942]

also sad because her Christian church should never have put a seeker in a place of leadership. That was very unwise. Also a young girl should not spent so much time with a married man, also unwise. A lot of immaturity all the way around. I feel like there is more to the story then we got. The Pastor wasn't asked to step away from the church because of Divorce- something else happened. Even the commentator was suspicious.

[@philsphan4414]

What’s the sweater say?

[@greygray5762]

Noir is what I’m wearing, maybe?

[@bethkirsch2365]

I'm so happy she didn't sing Oceans, that song triggers me in a torturous way having come out of fundamentalist christianity... She has tremendous vocals 💜

[@jayvanover4130]

So ive been a singer from my pre-teens until now in my mif 30s( it started as fun then i was in my schools best choir where to get in you had to audition in front of the class then after all auditioners left the rest would vote and a single no meant you dont make it but like a jury you could talk to the people saying no and see if their mind could change.) But ive benn told i was very good i just get nervous AF like during solos( which we would have sing offs for then the class votes and whoever gets most votes wins) which i had a few solos but id almost throw up when it was close. OK I SAID ALL THAT FOR THIS, more often than not im not big on women singers but this chick id actually just listen to because her voice entered my ears like little Va jay jays and her voice a F'd my ears to the point her voice just alpha widowed me to any other female singer ive ever heard.

[@Ashs-mini-vlogs]

All the temple stuff is on KZbin its weird af

[@jeffthechristian3010]

2:40:00 The body of Christ (to use a biblical term) was once united: all deacons, priests, and bishops (more biblical terms) recognized each other's ministry and communion by any minister was recognized by all other ministers. Ca. 400-500, what is now the Coptic church separated from the rest of Christianity. The religion didn't change, but certain doctrinal-differences split the sides apart. From the Copts would come much later the independent Ethiopian Orthodox Church. 1517 saw the Protestant Reformation erupt in Europe, leaving what is now the Roman Catholic Church behind. The first Protestants were followers of Martin Luther, but very quickly, other non-Catholic movements sprouted in this same 'Protestant' vein, the word 'Protestant' being an English word derived from the word 'protest'. They were calling out the ancient Roman church on abuses and doctrinal differences. From this European drama came what we now call the Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Baptist traditions. The Anglican tradition began in 1534 when Henry VIII of England failed to get a requested annullment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. He then attempted to nationalize the Roman Catholic Church in his country and half-succeeded, the most egregious aspect being the Dissolution of the Monasteries in which much of English artistic and other cultural heritage was lost. From the Anglican church came what is in America the Episcopal Church. Also from the Anglican tradition came the Methodist tradition (John Wesley's brainchild) which is itself a protest-movement against the Anglican tradition that rejected the work of John Wesley who himself had been an Anglican priest. The Wesleyan or Methodist movement (because it was referred to as a 'method' in the beginning) gave rise to the various Methodist denominations (too long to elaborate on here), and it was also part of what spawned the American Evangelical movement: adhering to at least a mostly-literal reading of the Bible which manifests specifically into opposition to same-sex marriage, abortion, and women in ministry. The Evangelical movement in the States transcends denominations and yes, it is highly characterized by praise-bands as opposed to traditional choirs and organs. Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans, non-denominational, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians are all lumped together as Protestants. Non-denominational churches are those Protestant churches whose tradition came from the Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, and Presbyterians. Many Protestant churches are wholly-independent, reporting directly to no higher temporal authority. This includes every Baptist church there has ever been. Thus, the number of wholly-independent Protestant denominations is mind-boggling, and the Baptist church where I grew up of about 2,000 souls is as independent as the Roman Catholic Church of 2 billion souls. Do *not* let this turn you off from the gospel. Accept Jesus who died on the cross and rose from the dead as your savior, never abandon him without repenting, Never take the Mark of the Best (Rev. 13), and while this life will not be easy, your eternity at the feet of LOVE is secure.

[@kirstieanderson9399]

Bookmarking 1:29:00 to share with a friend

[@jeffthechristian3010]

2:56:00 She can sing!!

[@haslergray1947]

What year was your father in South Africa?I live there.

[@nolinpowe]

29:00 moving from Atlanta to Provo I 110% understand where you're coming from, you can't trust no one except non-mormon/liberal Mormon because no matter what you say in Utah County, word spreads like wildfire & people look at you more differently, I can't wait to move out of Utah in 4 months

[@susanjoyce8053]

Do any Mormons understand what it sounds like to a never Mormon how ridiculous it sounds

[@susanjoyce8053]

That underwear is such an issue in any relationship?

[@krystalokada]

@@susanjoyce8053 the underwear is ATROCIOUS! My still faithful husband wears them. So unbelievably unattractive. Bleh

[@jonycruz2430]

Yet there is converts.

[@cwb1400]

It’s sad when we trade one nonsensical belief system for another. I went through this myself. The sooner you let go of all of it, the sooner you will find peace. Go inward, that’s the only place you will find “god”.

[@tilu3303]

All "religions" have some truth in them - some more than others - but I know of none that were not created by mankind, which is where they all deviate from universal truth. I believe by trying to appear "good" and "truthful", they actually SUPPRESS the truth about the Creator.

[@NeedSomeNuance]

Not sure how I got the link early for these ones. Weird.

[@danaleedavis9144]

I messaged them about that, and they said it got postponed.

[@NeedSomeNuance]

@@danaleedavis9144 ah gotcha. well now I’ve already listened to them!

[@Carolem494]

There have been times when I didn’t go to church, but I felt real bad, after a time, and went to confession. Our sins are always forgiven if we are truly sorry. We have some rules, such as going to church every Sunday and following the Sacraments, such as Holy Communion. To me, the Catholic religion is the first religion and it follows Jesus’ teachings. And we have groups we can join, and ways to contribute to the church. But only how much we can afford. We don’t have tithing. But we are encouraged to support our church and the poor.

[@technicolormind]

I've been slowly going through and listening to these podcasts and they're very interesting to me. However, I have to stop in this one about halfway through and comment - I strongly disagree that secular children get no guiding principles, morals, etc without a structured religious doctrine and that you need organized religion to get that. It is possible to develop your brain without a "dictated life path". And in my opinion, you need to fall in a few potholes - but with solid principles and education not based in fantasy, those potholes won't be so deep. I was raised in a non-religious way and my parents did their job of raising me by instilling morals, values, and expectations. I didn't have to "figure it out for myself". I met wonderful people and learned about their various faiths. I had a grandmother who I visited over the summers who took me to an orthodox church on Sundays until I decided at age 14 that it wasn't for me because it made me extremely uncomfortable. My family allowed me to make that decision for myself and did not pressure me either way. My parents taught me the value of hard work and encouraged me to make something of myself. They never demonized alcohol or sex, and they didn't have to say anything about drugs because the fear of getting arrested was enough to keep me far far away from them. They taught me what alcohol was and what it could do to you. They let me taste it. Then, when it was put in front of me as a teen, I had enough discretion to say no - because I was not desperate for it - or be mindful of my intake. They taught me not to drink and drive. As for sex, my mom taught me about STDs and threatened to make me keep a child if I got pregnant. They educated me. They did not say "don't do this or God will punish you and your family and damn you to an eternity of suffering". Because this wouldn't work. Plus I was a spiteful child who grew into a spiteful adult; they recognized that. I was told I would never amount to anything by cruel teachers and peers - so now I make a six figure salary and I'm working up to leadership in my company. My parents did not sit back and let me "figure it out". They did not outsource my core values. They gave me a core and let me make my own choices with a solid foundation to fall on. True, I'm not perfect. I've suffered with depression, I've made mistakes, I've had struggles, and I have trauma. I don't have a fabulous relationship with my family. But those things continue to make me into the person I am today. They contribute to my strength and sense of self. I do not need organized religion. And from what I've seen, organized religion causes significantly more harm than good. It breaks people. It slows their development into fully functional, rational, compassionate, self-actualized, adults. I do not appreciate this rhetoric from you John. I was under the impression that this was a place for compassion, not a place to advocate a potentially hurtful agenda. Otherwise, Rachel seems lovely.

[@fvalenzuela34]

To be saved means to be saved from Gods wrath when you get saved it’s a personal experience where you ask for forgiveness (repentance) and you ask Jesus to come into your heart. Baptism is an outward expression. Those prayers the pastors make you say is kinda coercive.

[@educationallie9149]

Evangelical is a belief in the total authority of the bible and you are to "evangelize" so all others to believe in it too. Non-denominational is that the church does not affiliate with a specific denomination, i.e., Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist etc... Not all denominatoons are evangelical.

[@victoriairias7703]

Now now... dont be dessived by christian music now days.... as a chriatian girl i have noticed many wrong things, many of them are very worldly, yes we arw called to worship God in gratitude and when we are in pur darkest momwnts. Like king david writing his spalms. But now day the music indurtry is taking a bit of a turn... to secular, i can go on and on baout this. But there are videos already talking about this, so dont be dessived! Just because they are jumping and praising God doesnt mean ther are truly worshipimg God with their lives.

[@LauraOttawa]

The way she talks reminds me of Miley Cyrus

[@realhealthrealwealth]

Selling, it's ALL about the Money 💰 🤑 💸 god.

[@MarthaHW]

Jill Mormon!

[@Maio373]

As I church leader I feel for anyone feeling mistreated by members and church leaders. All are welcome at church. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ provides all the answers to life's questions. Every gift from heaven is available in the restored church. The power of the priesthood is real. I have seen it in action many times in mine own life and the life of others.

[@BG-ig6fd]

I gotta ask: What is with the number 4 when it comes to the number of children LDS families have? So many LDS families have 4 kids. Are couples told they must have at least 4 to make it to the highest celestial kingdom?

[@carbine090909]

Why stay in Mormonism if you don't even utilize the beneficial structure?

[@deborahcarroll2172]

Why would anyone leave the LDS church and go to another radical one like an evangelical church? What would her answer be to the question of the billions of people who have died without even hearing of Jesus, let alone be baptised. When all Christians are taught that the only way to heaven is to accept Jesus as your personal savior, what does she have to say about all those who have lived and died without even hearing of Jesus? It seems to me that she must believe that all of them are just out of luck. At the judgement Jesus will just say to them, "too bad you were born in China in 890 B.C. but since you didn't accept me as your savior, you are off to hell."

[@mormonstories]

Hi Deborah, we hope you got to check out part 2 of her story!

[@mariahbarr123]

I’m a Delta Gamma too!!⚓️

[@leeajohnson5534]

Low key I feel like her and Austin Archer would make a great couple 😊