Imperials vs Stormcloaks - Skyrim's Civil War | The Elder Scrolls Podcast #65

WELCOME to the Elder Scrolls Podcast with FudgeMuppet. In this episode, Scott, Michael & Drew discuss Imperials vs Stormcloaks
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[@hunterswepic]

“They built roads, they tried to establish trade routes, but in the end it all failed. The argonians didn’t want it in the first place, and then it just became a prison state” I never realized Black Marsh was supposed to be an analogue of Australia.

[@badluck5647]

Black Marsh is also like Australia in the aspect that everything in nature wants to kill you.

[@adamthompson6669]

😂

[@Valencetheshireman927]

I think for Australia it’s more in the reverse. Prison state to building roads and instead of it failing it actually succeeded. 🇦🇺

[@c01dfire]

Australia is basically a prison colony right now... so full circle... 😔

[@Zeppathy]

Sounded more like Afghanistan to me.

[@01_N01]

Argonians living in Morthal makes more sense to me. Since Hjaalmarch is mostly marshland it seems like a better place for them to live as it's the closest environment in Skyrim to Black Marsh

[@ltloxa1159]

I assumed they were slaves or descendants of slaves who arrived at the same time as the Dunmer.

[@Palestrense]

@@ltloxa1159 Assuming that, and the 1/10th of an ok salary thing, it would be really hard for them to gather enough resources to make a trip to black marsh. Whose boat would take them (considering the prejudice)? Wouldn't their Nord bosses try to have them arrested? Would they risk passing through Morrowind (broken as it is) and get recaptured as slaves? The other way by boat it's almost a full circle around Tamriel (and goes through AD territory). The "safest" option I think would be going to Riften (maybe getting some help from the fellow Argonians there) and trying to cross the mountains into Cyrodil and then through nibenese lands to Argonia. But even then such a trip would have its risks.

[@ltloxa1159]

@@Palestrense Hey you, you're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Yeah no, going through Riften ain't the brightest idea either.

[@bombchus]

true that, it would have been interesting to find a small agonian only encampment out in the marshes or something.

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

There is a swamp south of windhelm for the argonians they probably go to the city for work which is probably in demand for an aquatic race

[@keebmack]

*plays argonian* “I have no horse in this race”

[@mindtrait0r879]

They've actually got lizard horses, you can you them in ESO.

[@E-Brightvoid]

Let the Hist guide you

[@bryankelly335]

You are the horse in this race ....

[@MrSinjoy]

"I have no horse in this race." - Lokir of Rorikstead

[@MrSinjoy]

@Sanguine Jesus Christ, that's nasty. :D

[@kenaidip2504]

Over a decade later and we're still debating this question. God I love this game.

[@pistolero9836]

If only the user interface didn't suck so much.

[@car6697]

yeah the Civil War in TES V: Skyrim's *can be* pretty controversial (kinda like picking between team Cap and team Iron Man in MCU's 2016 Captain America: Civil War) and hard choice to pick (there's always the 3rd neutral option too of course thankfully) *for some* , but it's honestly starting to become kind of a toxic debate lol, plus politics *can be* pretty boring and stressful. i love this game so much too, except when it freezes and crashes 😡😡😤😤

[@andrescrespo2514]

It’s almost as if they grew up from when they were 15 and bought a Mature game. As you grow up you learn to have some introspection on old views you had and you reevaluate.

[@finlay9616]

pshhh there's no debate clearly... ughh.. clearly the... empire.. but the Storm cloaks get a really bad wrap... shit, I'll get back to you

[@McSquirts]

@@pistolero9836get a mod for it, the ui is made for a controller of course it sucks on keyboard

[@HeWhoComments]

Don’t let this distract you from the true threat: the Thalmor.

[@asraarradon4115]

The obviously manipulated the entire thing. I don't think they turned Ulfric but they broke his faith in the empire. They made the Empire ban Talos worship to turn some of the Nord people against the Empire. They made the Empire surrender Hammerfell lands to turn the Redguards against the Empire. Who knows what they have done in Highrock. Their intent was the fracture the Empire, and it worked.

[@CatHasOpinions734]

THIS. Honestly, what I really want is the option to bop Ulfric and Tullius over the head with rolled up newspapers until they realize that the Thalmor are their actual enemies and maybe they should stop killing each other because the main thing that accomplishes is making the Thalmor very, very happy.

[@ShadeStormXD]

@@asraarradon4115 only thing with this is i lowkey think that the hammerfell breakoff was a deliberate move against the thalmor since terrain wise hammerfell is much harder to control and the empire had already drained much of the thalmors most valuable and important assets, letting the the redguards bleed out the high elves for a little longer after the imperials had already pushed them back and stopped their assaults advance. obvs the redguards would definitely see the greater benefits of independence, but just the demeanor of the emperor when you meet him and the background on the Great War seems like that may have been a calculated move to benefit the empire in the long run

[@malice9720]

What about Thalmor puppet states like the Empire?

[@homingice6444]

​@@CatHasOpinions734 Tulius does realize the Thalmor Threat. After addressing the troops after killing Ulfric. He states they'll have to fight again. However, he needs to put down this rebellion to secure The Empire's territory. Try defending your lands with a rebellion on your hands. It will not go well for you and what else is a Empire suppose to do? Let the rebellion happen that'll weaken them in the future? No.

[@mrapyro]

I like how the Skyrim civil war reflects wars in the real world. We all see wars from a biased perspective, enforcing a "we are the good guys, and they are the bad guys" perspective. In Skyrim you learn of the war from a perspective that lies somewhere in the middle. That's why it's so easy to make an argument for either side.

[@YouTubeViolates1A]

I don't know. The one in Ukraine seems pretty black and white, yet people try to push the narrative that it's not as if Russia has ever been the good guys.

[@TFAric]

As someone that is EU skeptic I do feel allot for the Stormcloaks, but that is my bias coloring how I look at the game.

[@ghostpasha9076]

I can't stand the Thalmor, and my latest PC, an Altmer, joined Ulfric! Much fun.

[@ethankrueger1915]

I think it often gets swept aside due to the oversimplification of the civil war in the fandom, but BSG did a really incredible job building a complex conflict that had no truly “correct” winner. A really solid argument could be made for either side and they don’t get enough credit for the amount of layers there are to consider in your decision

[@doronaznible7298]

Though they could’ve done better honestly.

[@badluck5647]

It amazes me so many people missed the subtleties. For example, the are a lot of pro Stormcloak players who don't see an issue with ultranationalism faction mistreating the other races.

[@badluck5647]

@Sanguine I feel like you are they type of person who would applaud putting the Japanese Americans in internment camps, because there were spies that mapped out Pearl Harbor. "The Japanese were even more racist against other Asians".

[@amilcare4901]

@@badluck5647 I feel like you are the type of person who would applaud putting those "reactionary" people who think Einstein was right into chinese death camps, because they don't share your opinion. Nice ad hominem by the way. Maybe next time you should consider that this is a game world, not the real world. Sanguine is right, they are almost all xenophobic. The Empire was basically the only thing that "forced" them to be open.

[@MatthewShute]

Quite so. Which side of the civil war I join comes down to the values of the character I'm playing. Do they care more about the totalitarian persecution going on, Thalmor agents going around like the Gestapo, openly dragging thought criminals off to torture while the Empire considers this a price worth paying to avoid open war with the Dominion? Or do they care more about Stormcloak xenophobia versus Imperial cosmopolitanism? Do they believe that the Empire is ultimately a dying force? Or do they think the Empire is the most viable way to eventually push back the Dominion? Do they think Skyrim can stand alone against the Empire and the Dominion? Or do they think the Stormcloak project is ultimately doomed? Or do they think, even if it _is_ doomed, it's better to go out fighting the Thalmor to the last, than a peaceful but slow decline? In the end it comes down to roleplaying.

[@evilcow666]

Parthurnax should be emperor. He just seems so nice.

[@martinhill9561]

When you realize he has a better claim to the throne than almost everyone but you

[@gabrielnovaes7306]

yes

[@shadowknightgaming1874]

@@martinhill9561 hence why you slaughter him but legit fuck the blades they literally do nothing for me and then ask me to kill the cool dragon who helped me kill his brother like tf I will happily never talk to you weirdos ever again

[@Saiyangoddess72]

I'd side with him

[@alexanderlaird6206]

I agree entirely, the political prestige the empire would get from that would overwhelming. The literal saviour of all humanity from the Dragon Wars, the direct (now eldest) son of the main god of the Imperial Cult. If I was some farmer in the empire I'd pledge my life to him in a heartbeat.

[@EJDubbz]

If they had kept more of the old Nord religion intact, at least in eastern Skyrim, the Stormcloak cause would be more compelling.

[@goblez5900]

Yeah, I have a feeling even the devs had an Imperial bias. I still love the Stormcloaks tho

[@sercravenmohead3631]

They’d be more compelling if the Thalmor wasn’t secretly supporting them.

[@ryansevers1400]

@@goblez5900 imperial bias? For most of the game we are shown/told about the imperials being bad and storm cloaks good! Imperials Tring to execute you Empire working with the dominion Empire subjugation locals Empire banning talos worship Imperials arresting stormcloak supporters Thalmor arresting talos worshipers And all we are told is storm cloaks want it to stop And yet the Empire is still the most popular choice. Because It's not until alot of further digging that you learn the Imperials arnt the big bad guys and the storm cloaks arnt the good guys (no one is).

[@conmereth]

@@goblez5900 My memory is a little fuzzy, did the Thalmor want Ulfric to win or did they just want to keep the war going

[@hermonymusofsparta]

@@sercravenmohead3631 they're not secretly "supporting"

[@badjokesaregoodithink9231]

FudgeMuppet: brings up imperial vs stormcloak debate Me: Ahhh shit here we go again

[@themischeifguide]

I hear you cap'n

[@dootytood2643]

I find it funny that you can side with the Empire and still kill the Emperor as the Listener for the Dark Brotherhood.

[@fred15228]

I love the theory that the emperor himself is the one who put the contract

[@DrLukeHart]

Internal power struggle?

[@dootytood2643]

True @Luke Hart. If you think about it, the internal power struggle seems to be the real mechanic of Skyrim. The Civil War, The Dark Brotherhood, The Thieves Guild, The Cydna Mine Incident in Markarth, the Dawnguard vampire questline, even the main questline; all have elements of an internal power struggle.

[@jakehouston7721]

I always looked at it like I was choosing the lesser of two evils when I chose the empire, but the emperor wasn’t fit to lead anymore so we take him out.

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@jakehouston7721 Meh I always see self-determination as quite ideal, so it's always Stormcloak for me.

[@SuperLumianaire]

Someone actually understands the word asset. Nice.

[@dutchpatriot17]

Plenty of people do. Unfortunately, these three don't.

[@SuperLumianaire]

@@dutchpatriot17 you again? Didn't you have some other dumb opinion from before?

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@SuperLumianaire Shouldn't you be insulting people again because you have a hard time forming arguments?

[@dutchpatriot17]

@Sanguine You ought to work on your writing skills, pal. Your interpunction is pretty poor.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@Sanguine Sure is a pity that you struggle to understand context, then.

[@95Bartlett]

One thing I've never heard mentioned about the civil war is that all of the Stormcloak holds are pretty economically run down or "shadows of their former selves" in some way. We have Windhelm which despite being a major port city akin to Solitude, isn't economically booming nearly as much and the place just seems run down and has more poverty in general. Riften used to be a lot more massive prior to it burning down around a century earlier and we all know what happened to Winterhold. Dawnstar seems to be the only stormcloak hold that's stable but it's only a minor hold. Realizing this made me think that one of the reasons those particular holds joined Ulfric is maybe due to economic reasons, if the capital is brought back to Windhelm than maybe Ulfric would benefit the eastern holds in the same way that the Empire benefits the western holds.

[@teyrncousland7152]

If you check the conversations between the NPCs at the Blue Palace in Solitude you will see that imperial holds aren't doing any better, because the empire is leeching Skyrim's resources and manpower with taxes and the like. Which is one of the many reasons why Stormcloaks are rebelling as mentioned by both Ulfric and Ralof.

[@paladinheadquarters7776]

@@teyrncousland7152 why can’t they just try and strengthen the empire instead of causing more dead and division then?

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

@@paladinheadquarters7776 because the empire is a corrupt husk of decaying flesh rebel my dear nords the redguards wait eagerly for your victory and allegiance

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@paladinheadquarters7776 Well for one as I mentioned in my other comment, the empire is apparently leeching Skyrim's resources and manpower as proven by the conversations at the Blue Palace in Solitude. Thus "strengthening" the empire weakens Skyrim substantially. Secondly the empire is the very reason why humans are in this mess. Nobody trusts or should trust the empire anymore because nobody wants a second White Gold Concordat. Finally thanks to the White Gold Concordat the empire is now infested with Thalmor agents throughout its provinces. These agents are now able to easily undermine, sabotage and destroy the empire from within by various means (many of which we see in-game), making the whole point of strengthening the empire moot. The only hope the humans have now is to make new states that aren't handicapped by the White Gold Concordat and that also means destroying the empire in the process. Especially since at this moment the empire allows Thalmor influence to spread throughout Tamriel thanks to the White Gold Concordat, thus weakening the empire at this point also weakens Thalmor influence on Tamriel.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

Well as an emerging faction they don’t have any trade partners, say the Stormcloaks win. Who would actually trade with them? They hate foreigners, everyone else doesn’t like nords. I can’t imagine high rock would tolerate them because they kill reachmen who are Bretons. The Empire is the only way they have access to trade and I think it’s less economically beneficial to cut ties.

[@Camelworks]

People wanting to rule their own land and defend their home against foreign forces that have outlawed their primary deity... It's hard to not empathize with the Stormcloaks. Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must." Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed." Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn." Ulfric is one big dick dude.

[@birdnoir5841]

Big Dick, former known in the Imperial Legion as Bigus Dickus, is, indeed, as they say, a big dick dude.

[@kingclint2382]

Dude is definitely a very deeply written character. And very polarizing

[@ltnemesis9562]

@@birdnoir5841 😂

[@TheJesterInYellow]

You've fallen for the populist rhetoric brother. Stop worshipping Aludin (or whatever you fucks do up there north of Bruma) and rejoin the Red Diamond.

[@dutchpatriot17]

It's really not all that difficult once you learn that Ulfric's the reason why the ban is being enforced. And when you learn of the fact that you can still worship Talos even if the Empire wins.

[@IamsavedbyGodsgrace]

I like how you guys stay on topic, and never stray to far, and when you do get off topic, you easily get back on track.

[@maxgoss5653]

They the greatest to ever do it

[@TreeckoBro]

"When I think of who I'm siding with, it's from a roleplay perspective for my character." I think that's the best way to go honestly.

[@louditalian1962]

That’s a lazy way of thinking. Like you don’t have a real thought.

[@seamus4A]

@@louditalian1962 ? you gotta build your characters background and make it make sense, if anything its the opposite of lazy. Compared to, I like red more than blue

[@QuintRepler]

@@louditalian1962 its lazier character building to play every character as if they were yourself

[@cptndunsel2670]

Even then, I have a hard time siding with the empire on any of my characters. The empire came this close to executing you for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think something like that would give even the most patriotic pro-cyrodil Imperial a bit of a crisis of allegiance.

[@GenericUsername-qp1ww]

@@cptndunsel2670 damn straight. The Mede Empire are corrupt as hell, perfectly fine with attempted murder, get along with knife eared Nazi's, has Maven a.k.a female Al Capone as an asset and would make that moron Elisif the queen which would make Skyrim into a complete joke

[@_Harvestman_]

I wish more people would entertain the idea of the dragonborn making a grab for the ruby throne. The thing that kept the septim dynasty going was the boon of akatosh, from the amulet of kings and the dragonblood. My headcanon has always been the stormcloaks winning, ulfric becoming high king, the emperor being assassinated, and the dovahkiin marching on cyrodiil and claiming the protection of akatosh, and going on to drive the thalmor back

[@DubiousFIN]

same. Also im interested if dragonblood causes power hunger for the Dragonborns since miraak & tiber seemed to be quite interested in different kinds of power

[@springheelzach812]

@@DubiousFIN it's implied that dragons and by extension dragonborn have a drive to dominate and that can take many forms

[@maxwella.gamingps4631]

YESS!! I also have this head-canon. The Dragonborn rstores The Blades (after putting them in their place of course, Parthurnax remains alive), and he will claim his akatosh given right to the ruby throne. He has the back up of The Blades, the consent of the Greybeards, and Dragon as firepower. Plus Skyrim at his back. The assassination of the Empedor (whether it was the drsginborn himself or someone else would be irrelevant) exposes the weakness of the empire. A weak Emperor, with a weak protection detail. Its time for strength!

[@colt9836]

No, the Last Dragonborn will vanish as do all other The Elder Scrolls protagonists. If not, then all sorts of tomfoolery will occur. I think it's safe to say that the DB is one of the most powerful mortals in Mundus, surpassed only by actual divine beings. The Bend Will shout alone is already game-over for anyone who dares to challenge them. Just all other protagonists before the DB, they will be remembered for the main quest, and that's it.

[@halohalo505]

Sounds like Tiber Septim

[@ErnestoCifer]

Wow.. last time i was in this early Torygg was still alive

[@pippogriffthegreat7003]

Last time I was in this early, Glenroy and Captain Renault survived in the sewers.

[@jaysus4316]

Michael is slowly achieving Chim by shedding his hair which confines him while the rest continue to live in the dream.

[@thalmoragent9344]

He's going for the Bald Vivec cut 😳

[@andrewgrahamlloyd6253]

I enjoyed the idea of red guards teaming with a fractured nord populace. Would love to hear this expanded upon in the next episode! Cheers love the content as always.

[@barkasz6066]

The White Gold Concordat could be rather easily circumvented by putting more of an emphasis on the traditional pantheons. Talos worship outlawed? Okay let’s worship Shor/Shezzar/Sheor, Pelinal, Kyne, etc and stick together for now.

[@eliascorrea8573]

@@23Raind They cannot worship shor bcause he is how nords view Lorkhan, he is the chief evil deity in elven pantheon

[@sercravenmohead3631]

The white-gold concordat wasn’t that bad, the Thalmor paid chests of gold for a Talos ban and some territory in Hammerfel that they lose soon after, we know the empire wasn’t strict on the ban so essentially they got to walk away with tons of money and they let all their red guard legionnaires go home to fight the Thalmor and win.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@sercravenmohead3631 Well, the Empire lost Hammerfell though, so... as well as half of Skyrim in rebellion now. The Empire is falling apart at the seams, and the Concordat is to blame for multiple Factions

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@@thalmoragent9344 Hammerfel is independent but they are in good terms with the Empire, and half of Skyrim is still loyal. Tulius practically won at the beginning of the game but because of Alduin, Ulfric escaped. I still think Tulius will win the war, the loyalist holds are more wealthy.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@sercravenmohead3631 Skyrim may hold out, but Hammerfell getting half of itself sold out for the sake of Cyrodiil is why some are bitter. The Crowns especially are gonna be pissed, the ones who don't like the Empire/pro Yokudan ones

[@TreeckoBro]

Honestly, what gets me the most is sadly the intro of the game. I know from a strictly baseline perspective, the Imperials are instantly dislikable simply because they try to murder the player - but it's really telling of what they're doing to Skyrim. They don't care about your race or who you actually are. They suspected you of being Stormcloak and thus you're sent to the block. I can only imagine how many innocent people in Skyrim suffered the same fate simply because of circumstance. I don't think it's right that the Empire are going "scorched-earth" on the Nords to solve the issue.

[@dutchpatriot17]

Bruh are you seriously saying that a Legion captain taking some drastic measures because she doesn't want to hold up the execution of Ulfric Stormcloak himself means that they'd behave like that normally?

[@cptndunsel2670]

@@dutchpatriot17 Yeah, because that captain couldn't have taken one minute to say "Hmm. Let's put this one prisoner on the side for a moment" would have held up Ulfric's execution.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@cptndunsel2670 That's totally irrelevant because, like I said, it's still just the decision of that one captain.

[@RWNetworkEX]

Scott is Vivec, Drew is Almalexia, and Michael is Sotha Sil.

[@RWNetworkEX]

@@23Raind Yea and they’re doing podcasts now

[@BTD28]

I love how they can compare religious persecution to being told that they can't have xbox that's somebody who's never faced any sort of persecution

[@worstghosthunting3466]

I’m sure they haven’t been prosecuted, or at least not to the degree of others, but also that’s a joke so what’s your point?

[@juanfisi]

Yeah, even in real life religious persecution is really serious. Imagine it happening in a world were most gods are actually and verifiably real.

[@josegamez9808]

Missed opportunity to draw a parallel with the Spanish Inquisition

[@napdragon94]

I think it'd be interesting if each country in Tamriel became independent I'd prefer that makes for interesting lore or reunification of the Empire a new Septim Emperor like an unknown descendant of Martin but that's too optimistic and unlikely.

[@maestrol6771]

That would result in another Interregnum like in Arena or ESO, which is profitable for many people.. War hawks, bandit lords, necromancer cabals, opportunistic warlords.. Not too good for the common man, I do think. But it would be an interesting setting, yes.

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@maestrol6771 The reason why the Interregnum happened is because Cyrodiil collapsed leaving a huge power vacuum in the center of Tamriel. We don't need an empire for peace in Tamriel so long as Cyrodiil remains stable.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@teyrncousland7152 Well, why Cyrodiil? I mean, yes it's in the center, so that's a huge point, but if Cyrodiil is in a position where "if we fall, all of Tamriel will scramble for power there", then perhaps that's why the Imperials always start, well, an Empire, to protect the heartland as well as keep stability. Of course, the other Provinces aren't necessarily gonna be starting wars for Cyrodiil, since not all of them are interested in having even larger Provinces, so that's also a good debate. Hell, Summerset isn't even on the mainland, and when they made a Dominion to keep themselves protected and seperate from human rule, but that didn't stop the humans from invading Summerset and annihilating the Altmer for no reason but "muh conquest".

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@thalmoragent9344 You are correct. A stable Cyrodiil isn't going to keep the peace on Tamriel. In fact the empire's weren't really effective in keeping the peace either. At this point we might just as well let all the provinces be independent and decide their own future, I just don't like it when one of them dominates the others. If chaos is the cost of freedom, so be it.

[@maestrol6771]

@@teyrncousland7152 Independence for the provinces of Tamriel, returning everything to just constantly warring states. But if I know the Tamrielic races, they'll always have some reason to hate each other. Slavery, genocide, all sorts of hatred run deep. So, yes, chaos is the greatest cost of freedom. Is that a good thing? I can't really answer that.

[@RangerJackWalker]

We can talk about how one side winning would be better for ever without getting anywhere. But the narrative in-game clearly says that the Thalmor do not want either side to win and see a victory for Stormcloaks as an equally negative outcome for their goals as an Imperial victory.

[@burningbronze7555]

As long as some one wins then it is a good thing.

[@momsaid]

It’s equally bad because it complicates things. Not because the Nords could win. If they can barely beat the empire they aren’t going to beat the thalmor

[@Draezeth]

@@momsaid Yeah, this is what I always bring up. "bUt TeH tHaLmOr DoN't WaNt TeH sToRmClOaKs To WiN!" This does NOT mean it would be equally bad for them. Empire is the clear better choice if you want to stop the Thalmor.

[@me5969]

Agree, they’re definitely not the same outcome. It’s like if Scotland kicked off and then went to war with like the Russia or something after they won. Yeh it’s going to be annoying for Russia but it’s going to be a lot less costly than Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India ect. All bowling in at the same time. The analogy could be used with Texas going to war with Russia. It’s not going to be as deadly as a United..err.. United States. It would literally just be like WW2 were Britain was on its own fighting. It held it’s own, yeh but it didn’t get anywhere until all the others joined in.

[@momsaid]

Yeah duh because if they both don’t win they keep fighting and weaken each other. It doesn’t mean the Stormcloaks winning isn’t a massively better result for them, it means it’s not quite as good as if they keep fighting and spending resources and lives fighting each other and wasting more

[@yokothespacewhale]

speaking of evil... Thalmor would literally destroy the world in their desire to transcend it.

[@CyberController-]

Tullius: The Empire's gotta stay together or else we'll all be destroyed by the Thalmor Ulfric: *Cope*

[@cdg9683]

Based

[@lavallanchannel3668]

Ha ha! the 69th like (noice)

[@totower9597]

Yep alvor at the start of the game said it perfectly. "People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim." "We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."

[@samuelkristensen6685]

Brilliant podcast guys, Bethesda are lucky to have people exploring and examining their undeveloped lore like this. Really engaging with it.

[@cianfiftyone]

As an Irishman I always find myself sympathising with the stormcloaks. Ireland was colonised by Britain for 800 years so a big part of Irish culture is hatred for imperialism. However, although I sympathise and relate more to the stormcloakes,I always side with the imperials because there is ultimately a bigger picture being the Dominion.

[@torinjones3221]

Well no its more like 850 years and the Normans. Britain didn't exist. And to treat 1160s 'Britain' as 1 political entity is just ignorant. There were still Norse kingdoms in the British Isles on both Ireland and Britain at the time. Also gotta point out that the Normans we invited as mercenaries by the deposed King of Leinster to help reclaim his throne. And that he proper invasion by the Anglo-Normans was authorised and funded by the Catholic Church.

[@adamsalt9423]

@@torinjones3221 You are saying that to a person from Ireland, they want nothing to do with us really

[@adamsalt9423]

Apologies for what my ancestors did to screw you over

[@malice9720]

Except the Empire is a thalmor puppet state

[@ihateyankees3655]

Skyrim is easily capable of defending itself from the thalmor. Rough mountainous terrarin on 3 sides that would be hellish to march an invading army through, and a stormy, iceberg laden sea to the north. Fortify the mountain passes and shut down the lighthouses along the sea of ghosts, and no amount of thalmor would be able to get through.

[@vincentbedard4267]

My ideal headcanon is that the dragonborn goes on to become emperor, but Bethesda wont make that a thing obviously.

[@ColtNomad]

One thing that I always have an issue with is that everyone against the stormcloaks say they discriminate against the argonians and the dark Elves, when that's not exactly true. 200 years ago the Red Mountain erupted. 200 years they have been living in Windhelm. That's generations and generations of Nords. So then invaders come to Skyrim to force their laws and ways of life on the people of skyrim and the Elves in Windhelm don't help the local militia fighting against the invaders. "Skyrim is for the Nords" refers to Skyrim is for it's people and not the Empire. Any race can join the stormcloaks. You being dragonborn when recruited until the very end means that you weren't recruited for your magic powers but because you're willing to fight off the invaders. Argonians and Dark Elves are being separated to keep them from fighting. The dark Elves enslaved the argonians for so long and then recently the argonians started fighting back since morrowind had been weakened. If Ulfric was racist, there wouldn't be any Elves or argonians in windhelm. High Elves own shops in Windhelm. If he was racist, they wouldn't own a shop in his hold, let alone his city. The only two people showing any sort of hostilities toward Elves is the Rolff Stone-Fist and Angrenor Once-Honored, a brother of someone important but a nobody himself and a homeless veteran (so another nobody). It's the Shatter-Shield's business practices that makes the argonians lives hell, not the Stormcloaks.

[@dutchpatriot17]

Literally almost everything you just stated is unsupported by the lore.

[@hambikv8005]

This definitly needs a 2nd part. Great video and haircuts btw.

[@MonsterTurner1]

The hair styles progress from full to none in linear fashion

[@colejaime5124]

I like Scott's hair. I wish I could pull of a middle part. 😂

[@Monchoo237]

Haha the haircut comment was random but funny lol

[@ArchStrider]

I think the reason so many people see the storm cloaks as the “bad guys” (including myself when I first played the game) is that their negative aspects are much more visible in game. You can see their racism played out in the world. With the Imperials it’s mostly the lore and the background narrative that brings their flaws to life. Also, the Thalmor being a separate entity from the Empire, makes it easier to ignore the religious persecution when siding with the Imperials. As a result the imperials seem more “good” on the surface, and the immediate (although flawed) conclusion is that they are the good guys.

[@momsaid]

They have no choice but to enforce the talos worship. The assessment isn’t flawed. The empire winning and fast with minimal casualties bring the best results

[@car6697]

@@momsaid forced or not, that DOESN'T mean it's right that the empire is prohibiting Talos worship. heck, even Alvor, Hadvar's uncle in Riverwood, an empire supporter, says the empire was WRONG to ban Talos worship. that's NOT true, the assessment is INDEED *very* flawed, BOTH, the Stormcloaks AND the Empire have their pros and cons, which is why this is a civil war, and have some fleshed out characters like the main leaders from both sides, Legate Rikke & General Tullius, and Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak & Galmar Stone-Fist. otherwise, if it was so obvious to which side is correct, Bethesda would've never even gave us the option to join the Stormcloaks. a controversial and sad war with former friends/allies fighting each other but BOTH having justifiable reasons why they're fighting each other. but at the end, they both know they must prepare against Thalmor and their rule, it's just that one is also against imperial rule. that's also false, the empire winning wouldn't really change much, there would still be rampant Talos worshipping persecution (whereas the exact OPPOSITE would happen with a Stormcloak victory), and the Stormcloaks or another rebellion similar to them would most likely be back for revenge against the imperials (rightfully so). Tullius himself says something like that at the end of the empire quest line i believe of "i hope we didn't just create a Martyr". the SAME exact thing could be said tho with the Stormcloaks winning quickly and with minimal casualties, plus at least with Skyrim being independent, the entire province wouldn't have to abide by the White Gold Concordant anymore, which is a very GOOD thing 🐻💙💪

[@momsaid]

There is no cons to choosing the empire. Less imperials and Nords die and once the empire wins they can go back to worshipping talos in secret until they can garner enough power for an imperial victory over the thalmor. If the Stormcloaks win they just never stop fighting and even if they remain independent the people never know peace and so have no chance at real freedom. There’s only one outcome with potential positive long term results If the Stormcloaks were stronger maybe but they can’t even fight a tiny part of the imperial force

[@DrLukeHart]

You’re right. I personally find the Imperials in Skyrim (not the ones canon throughout the whole of TES lore, just Skyrim) pretty weak and one dimensional.

[@DrLukeHart]

@@momsaid Also at least we know that the empire is a conquesting power. Ulfric gives me some Brexit-y vibes that he’s only pushing for independence because he wants to be in control of Skyrim himself

[@alphasword5541]

One thing about the Civil War - that I don't think was brought up but I haven't finished the video yet - is that I usually prefer the Imperial aligned Jarls vastly to the Stormcloak aligned ones. Balgruuf stands out in that regard, and Vignar Gray-Mane is likeable but doesn't seem to be the best ruler lmao when it comes to Whiterun.

[@garpogods8323]

I almost always choose Imperials as well, but it comes at the cost of Maven Black-Briar becoming Jarl of Riften.

[@deadseven3474]

@@garpogods8323 Honestly? I'd rather have Maven using political influence to make herself more powerful than an actually incompetent Layla Law-Giver just listening to sweet whispers from her wholly corrupt entourage and taking everything at face value. At least Maven will know the true going ons of the city, and anything that is an actual threat to citizens is probably going to be a threat to her mead empire as well.

[@alphasword5541]

@@deadseven3474 Honestly agreed, I hate Maven but her becoming Jarl just tells everyone who is actually in charge. Layla is infuriating as a Jarl, at least with Maven in charge there's the hope that she loses some influence as a consequence.

[@garpogods8323]

@@deadseven3474 personally just always had the impression her connections to the Guild and Brotherhood may eventually be setting up "accidents" for the next High King and thier rule.

[@kurtslavain]

@@deadseven3474 Incompenent leader is better than a compenent a**hole. Besides, in my playtrough Maven ordered the death of my family to the DB and at the start of the game they were going after me...thus I was trying to cross the border to escape. My character hates her. And unless you role-play, you're not really playing the game.

[@Alvis_A]

Big thing for me to consider is the general feeling of both sides without knowing the larger scope. The gut feeling on a blind playthrough

[@danielalexandre89]

Funny how although fictional all these dilemmas are still present in the real world at this time People's opinions are greatly influenced by who delivers the news even if otherwise they wouldn't agree of who is the bad or good

[@badluck5647]

"The Reach is for the Reachmen!"

[@_sacredoak_7617]

@@23Raind dont worry they'll never beat the Nords.

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

Just a myth child skyrim belongs to the nords

[@badluck5647]

@@23Raind What is the big deal? The khajiit, orcs, and dunmer worship the deadra spirits too.

[@badluck5647]

@@Angelo-nd4lg The reachmen were in the Reach before any of the other races of man.

[@McHobotheBobo]

The Reachmen are mighty, remember the Black Drake!

[@lenniesmall8286]

People seem to forget about the Nord Empire back in the first/second era. The Nords had absolutely no problem defending themselves or even conquering Elves or other Humans all through history. They were only stopped because of the First Council. A Stormcloak victory could allow the Nords to return to this strength outside of Imperial control.

[@dutchpatriot17]

And then said Empire got Goomba stomped back to Skyrim. The Stormcloaks are utterly pathetic at warfare.

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@dutchpatriot17 They weren't stomped, they declined due to the War Of Succession and the Stormcloaks aren't the ones who signed the WGC, so who's really pathetic here?

[@sercravenmohead3631]

A lot of their enemies were divided internally, the Nordic Empire was the first unified kingdom of men. When they fought the Direnni in Highrock the nords actually had support of most of the Bretons. In Morrowind they fought the Chimer and Dwemer but there was a lot of internal rivalries but even still they couldn’t take Vvardenfel, The Dwemer United with the Chimer and eventually drove out the nords. We know the nords helped out the Alessian rebellion against the Ayleids, again they were divided into city states and some of them were actually aiding the races of men.

[@rafaelexel93]

The first nordic empire was made of atmorans the mystical dudes that slain an entire race of elves. The stormclacks defeated at water crossing by tulius they are such a weak faction that they are dependent on the Dragonborn(player character never take sides on the lore for obvious reasons) or a plot armor to work, the nordic provinces that support the empire are far more powerful than the stormclacks, the stormclacks can not unify skyrim and if the empire was directly involved in the war by just sending one legion ulfric's head would be on a pike. They are a cursed faction that the only thing they are doing is helping the thalmor by destroying skyrim.

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@rafaelexel93 The Altmorans had already left by the time High King Harald declared Skyrim an independent realm from Altmora and that was long before the Nords started creating their empire under High King Vrage. So learn the lore before you speak. Bruh Ulfric and his Stormcloaks escaped Tullius plenty of times before Tullius got lucky at Darkwater Crossing and killing Ulfric wouldn't end the war. Instead it would make him a martyr and would rally a lot more Nords under Galmar Stone-Fist. Both sides need the Dragonborn to win. The imperial holds are being drained of their resources and manpower by the empire, so they aren't doing any better than the Stormcloaks, plus the imperials aren't getting any reinforcements because according Tullius the empire already abandoned Skyrim and they don't care about the outcome of the civil war as they see it as a sideshow before the main event and in that case Skyrim has every right to stand up for itself, especially since it's the Imperials who are destroying Skyrim with their Thalmor masters and the Stormcloaks are saving it from both. In any case your criticisms on Stormcloak strength are irrelevant because you only judge their efforts during the civil war and you fail to see their potential after they win, in which case not only will they reform but also create new armies and without the empire leeching from it Skyrim will be able to use its own resources and manpower to become the powerhouse it always was in lore. It will certainly be more powerful than the empire eventually because it won't handicapped by the White Gold Concordat which allows Thalmor agents to infest the empire and destroy it from within.

[@ImmortalMuffin1947]

I’ve been watching you guys for 5 years and I wanna say that I’m proud to be an elder scrolls reader❤️

[@PattysYourDaddy]

I honestly think even if the empire reinstated talos worship that wouldn’t be enough to stop the civil war. The stormcloaks already see the empire as weak, and even if they brought back talos worship the fact that it was banned in the first place would still be reason enough to leave the empire.

[@TK-sn3rx]

I think that people blame Ulfric for the executions of the townspeople/forsworn/forsworn supporters during the Markarth incident, but the Jarl was likely the one responsible for those executions. I can’t remember if this is stated in game or in some book/note, but I’m hesitant to pin the blame for all of that on Ulfric.

[@WolfLykaios]

I feel the same. That Jarl is a ruthless and sadistic ruler

[@thalmoragent9344]

Well, there's also the case to make that maybe Ulfric knew as well, but let it happen because he felt a "hard hand" was necessary, so it all depends.

[@folkvangr6417]

@@thalmoragent9344 If that guilt by association is to be applied to Ulfric then all the Imperials presiding at Helgen for our own execution would be guilty.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@folkvangr6417 The difference is that Ulfric would've stood by as dozens of innocents died, not one dude who was crossing the border illegally

[@folkvangr6417]

@@thalmoragent9344 The Forsworn are by no means innocent, as for the townspeople yes they're innocent so long as they weren't helping the Forsworn. However, Nepos the Nose makes it quite clear that it was the Forsworn who were executed by Ulfric. The supposed murders of the townspeople are blamed on the "Jarl" which was not Ulfric and would have been Hrolfdir or Igmund. Hadvar would be guilty since he stood by and did nothing as we were marched to the block. As for the Empire they planned on killing an illegal migrant and a horse thief as if they were enemies of the state, hardly worth executing someone for that.

[@ltnemesis9562]

I think that it would be easier for the Stormcloaks to rule Skyrim than the Empire because, as you said, Skyrim is pretty split in terms of alliance between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. But the Stormcloaks are far more radical in their beliefs than most Imperial supporters in general. They care a lot more about what they believe in and will go to more extreme extents to ensure their freedom, I would think.

[@definitelynotsigjir]

But ironically, SKyrim isn't just for the Nords. There are the Reachmen, the Skaal, and of course the other races that reside in Skyrim, but would be oh so proper-fucked if Ulfric was high king. You could 99.9% expect him to commit at least one genocide, and then inevitably wage war with the Thalmor (who are still aligned with the Empire) and just plunge Skyrim into military and economic collapse. The real question is not who should rule Skyrim, but is making Talos a god worth invoking the wrath of the Thalmor (and other non-nord races) and appeasing the Stormcloaks? If the Nords get Talos, then the HIst, the Khajiti pantheon, the Yokudan pantheon, all of it should be included and then Tamriel would be a land of free worship.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

The Stormcloaks are also willing to indiscriminately bombard Whiterun’s inner city, quoted by Balgruuf “They are using fire shot, they aren’t aiming for the walls”. Also, they pillaged neutral village of Karthwasten. Stormcloaks are lawless barbarians, any nord with common sense knows the Thalmor are the true enemy and they know the Empire is going to fight them again. Evidence in Tulius dialogue and Legate Rikke as well as the Thalmor dossiers that prove they support the Stormcloaks so they can weaken the Empire.

[@Henrico.]

Ulfric is our comrade Lenin.

[@Henrico.]

@@definitelynotsigjirI disagree. The tendency is that the empire is gonna collapse, either way. The thalmor are just one little place though, Free Volenfell, Free skyrim, and Cyrodill can obliterate summerset isle. I just accept the empire's decadence, cause since the emperor's sacrifice in oblivion, the empire started to die. Emperor Titus Mede in skyrim just proves that the empire in skyrim is gonna destroy the hole land. Ulfric have a small territory, compared to the empire, but it is a new militia. Ulfric is like Lenin. If the stormcloaks win in the Civil War, the border's path is clean for the empire to pass, but the empire can't send troops, because they have their own borders to protect, that are even closer to Summerset Isles. High rock is the last place that the empire is gonna have hands on. I actually don't like the empire, cause they have a specific bloodline of vampires that don't have the eyeglow, which camouflages them inside the empire's court. Each province needs it's own empire. It can be... more interesting in my opinion.

[@Playaplaya18]

Idk guys, I've binged this podcast over the last 2-3 weeks and 1 episode a week ain't cutting it anymore lol. Thanks for the amazing content guys, this kind of lore channel is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Super pumped for you 3 to hit 1mil subs sometime in the near future!

[@chrisjackson2595]

moral of the story: a great warrior isn't always a good king. if ulfric had've advised torig instead of killing him, skyrim would have had a much stronger position. I think ulfric wanted control and vengeance for the great war; damn the consequences.

[@CatHasOpinions734]

@@23Raind that's a failure of information gathering, then, because literally all it takes to get that information is to ask a few of the people who know him. "Not public" is very different from "being kept secret", and anyone who doesn't bother to do basic reconnaissance and information gathering about something this historically important isn't qualified to rule. The LDB, with no skill in speech, has a trivially easy time getting this info. Any half-decent intel agent would have been able to do so, and this was supposedly something Ulfric planned and prepared for. It's one thing if he knew and just decided that the cultural tradition of solving disputes with combat was more important than seeking a diplomatic solution, which for cultural reasons could be seen as bad PR. But if it's actually the case that he would have been OK with a diplomatic solution and the only reason that didn't happen is because he didn't realize Torygg would have been willing to listen, then that means countless citizens of Skyrim died because he failed to do his homework.

[@CatHasOpinions734]

@@23Raind fair enough, I just thought it was an interesting discussion and after all, people (like me) are still actively discovering this video. But there's obviously no need to respond if you don't want to.

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

@@CatHasOpinions734 why didnt torryg do his homework n tell ulfrik he supports him n also wants out of the empire n free talos worship?

[@CatHasOpinions734]

@@Angelo-nd4lg I'm not sure how "homework" is relevant to that suggestion, there's no suggestion that Torygg didn't know any of that, Ulfric was being very loud about it. As for why he wouldn't say that, Ulfric challenged him publicly and their combat was public, there's no indication that they ever had a chance to speak privately. And saying any of that publicly while in court would have been tantamount to a declaration of war against the Thalmor, which would be incredibly reckless to do without any forethought or planning.

[@BubbleheadBoy]

On Stormcloaks allying with the Dunmer. Doesn't have to be all of the Great Houses. Just Redoran. They're both Warrior cultures and Redoran is the de facto leader of both Solstheim and Morrowind as whole, and their primary power base is the area of Morrowind closest to Skyrim.

[@momsaid]

And they hate nords

[@LadyCoyKoi]

The Dunmer have their own prejudices and racism, including those against the Nords. Though at this point, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." does come to mind and could benefit both against the Thalmor.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@LadyCoyKoi Eh, what do Dunmer gain here against the Thalmor? They never warred with the Dominion in the Great War, and are on the opposite side of the Continent. And if the Towers theory is correct, then Red Mountain is no longer a goal, it's deactivated

[@mrcopycat2355]

@@thalmoragent9344 Hmm, that reasoning seems suspicious! You wouldn't happen to be a Thalmor agent, now would you?

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@mrcopycat2355 Perhaps... I may also know that Morrowind isn't in our primary Goals either 👀

[@gasmanoo]

I can see three scenarios going forward into TES VI: a) Each province is independent, Empire crumbles. b) The Aldmeri Dominion conquers the other provinces, de facto becoming the new empire. c) Empire consists of Cyrodil, Skyrim and Highrock and is severely weakened.

[@theone2762]

If the second were true they (thalmor) would already destroy the world.

[@teyrncousland7152]

I choose a)

[@volsi5198]

One cannot deny the awesomeness of Vladimir Kulich (voice of Ulfric Stormcloak) in Skyrim. Whenever I rewatch this scene in the 13th Warrior, I envision Ulfric Stormcloak here in his final battle against the Reachmen. Have a go: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5ack416bZumack&ab_channel=Snugglefoots And yes, Ulfric is in fact not an enemy of the Empire, when it is true and just. He is fighting for Tiber Septim's name in the spirit of that more ancient and honorable dominion.

[@YourWaywardDestiny]

The idea of going "Oh, Elenwin, these dragons sure are a problem, huh? It's such a shame you and your Thalmor guard got SLAUGHTERED by one so close to the summit!" and then just killing all of them is very appealing to me. I don't think Tullius would actually do much more than be slightly irritated with the paper work he would then have to carefully word, and Ulfric would be pleased as punch for this to happen. It'd make for a much better negotiation. It's not like they couldn't just go on with "conflict" to start to slowly funnel more and more Thalmor into a difficult-to-breach-and-difficult-to-escape kill zone where it would be equally as hard to get a proper communication line to to get more realistic details about the "conflict" that is actually there.

[@Michael_mki233]

"Oh, Durnehviir! Think you could do me a favor...?"

[@thalmoragent9344]

The Thalmor would catch on if more people went missing and they realized the Empire was taking note, nor are the Skyrim based Thalmor responding much at all, and the infiltration of the Embassy would also be big news to the Dominion. They could stop sending Thalmor there all together, but then you have less chance to spy on then or reas Dossiers on "Assets"

[@YourWaywardDestiny]

@@thalmoragent9344 That assumes there's an accurate reporting system, of which the Thalmor would not have reason to question up to that point. If over all the the conflict appears to be equally ramped up across the board, it would still look like a minimal presence. Either they keep sending their people in based on ratios lost vs. the enemy losses, they ramp it up to try to enforce it with a more hands-on approach, or they send fewer people in to try to enforce a ban. All of those things are a plus to this kind of misinformation campaign. If the Empire and Stormcloaks are still going with the "business as usual" war and the empire APPEARS to be putting honest effort into enforcement and APPEARS to be taking great losses, there's no precedent for proclaiming Great War 2.0 because it still APPEARS to be following the script. The crux of the conflict for the Empire/Stormcloak conflict is a ban on Talos worship, the crux of the Thalmor actually being present is to fan the flames. That's an important distinction of conflict that can be manipulated to make a bigger headache for the Thalmor resource-wise. It'd take a great deal or work to set up and run with, and it would be a risk, but it can be done. Failure of this plan only means the war is on again properly, which is an inevitability regardless, and the Empire isn't out Stormcloak backing anymore.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@YourWaywardDestiny Yeah, but either way, they wouldn't be signing anything together since Talos Worship would still be banned, and overall, the Empire and Stormcloaks would still be at odds and fighting. Once Alduin is done for, then the war would be "business as usual", so your plan only works during the Dragonborn's request of a halt in the war, and once the Dragon War is over, then you'd see the 2 sides fighting all the same. Your plan sounds interesting and could work if applied very carefully, but even then, time is a big factor, and many Stormcloaks and Legionarries aren't gonna be too happy about suddenly being "buddy buddy" given they were just killing each other the day before and Talos Worship is still banned.

[@YourWaywardDestiny]

@@thalmoragent9344 I think you're thinking way more bureaucratically than I initially was. It's more like a Gentleman's agreement after a nice looong summit of talk for the higher ups to start casually deciding that maybe shifting troop movement around and rewording some key propaganda and possibly accidentally-on-purpose revamping their record keeping at an *inopportune* moment miiiight have some attractive up sides. I don't think Tullius would get clearance for anything so drastic as an actual permanent agreement in the first place, so it'd all have to be an under-the-table deal, and he wouldn't want to risk sending information like that to Cryodiil. And Ulfric, for as much as he's a bit slimy, is a Nord with honor who would at least like to project he's better than a piece of paper with a name on it. There's still actual conflict involved at least initially, just slowly turning the tides of who is wasting what and where. The only time they'd really be signing anything is if it started to go too far south and the second great war was officially declared. As much as the Stormcloaks dislike the Empire giving into the Aldmeri Dominion, I'm guessing they'd still sign on (albeit with a boatload more more legal fine print) to go to war with the Altmer. Nords just be like that with elves.

[@rhysgarland9295]

I'm still annoyed that the whole civil war centred around Talos, it should have been Shor

[@terminallyonline5296]

Nah, Talos Stormcrown being originally a Man (whichever variant of Man isn't really that clear) is key to the conflict. It fuels the High Elves to suppress worship and fuels the Nords to defend their worship.

[@ExValeFor]

@@terminallyonline5296 and makes stormcloaks into imperialized soyjacks who claim to be true blue nords but don't even care for their own pantheon. It's bullshit is what it is - it's not unrealistic, but it is pretty pathetic for them to have come to this. Stormcloaks fall apart once you think on any greater scale, including narratively

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

Talos is ysmir a god as old as skyrim so no he isn't imperial god but god of man

[@rhysgarland9295]

@@Angelo-nd4lg Ysmir only constitutes a part of the Imperial god Talos, though quite possibly was a Shezzarine. It would haveade far more sense if the Nord's worshipped Ysmir Wulfarth or Shor.

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

@@rhysgarland9295 ysmir is older than wulfarth, ysmir is the god of war who protects mankind you may know him by other names such as trinimach, tsun, hoonding, ysmir or ebonarm he is especially known for manifesting as great heroes however it must be acknowledged that he is missing from his sphere and rather acts as mediator between shor and auriel.

[@VenomLion]

Alright bois so I've just absolutely binged watched ALL your podcasts in three weeks. The only thing that sucks about it is that I now have to wait a week between episodes. Keep up the great work, love y'all!

[@zanderthompson4747]

You three really pulled out the wisdom for this one. You guys changed my view of this topic

[@MadKat197]

I have a feeling that these 3 are gonna end up in ES6 as their favorite race and being those critical view in like a cosmic library with a ton of elder scrolls and historic tomes from like before the first era to current lol

[@tonylouis6072]

Talos is love, Talos is life

[@Lazurath101]

Talos is TAAMMRIIEEEEELLLL

[@captainhybrid4045]

The fact that Torig accepts based on the Sovngard idea backs up his wife's quest of Talos worship. It all contradicts what the Thalmor allow.

[@rhysgarland9295]

Running devils advocate for the murder of Toryg, it's easy to look back in hindsight as the player & see that Toryg was a big fan of Ulfric & probably would have given him what he wants; but Ulfric didn't know that. From Ulfric's perspective he's been betrayed by the empire, the people of Skyrim are being oppressed and there's a weak boy sat on the throne.

[@crabinijig8403]

Also Ulfric would need to share more power and discuss things with someone he probably saw as a tainted nord. Another thing, the need for a conflict presses the envelope on radicalization. Ulfric is a cult of personality.

[@gerbilassassin3850]

What if a nord dragonborn joined the storm cloaks gained fame fighting, monsters, thalmor and imperials. Somewhere along the way Ulfric dies in battle the dragon born becomes the new storm cloak leader. The dragon born starts to garner support to become high king and starts advancing into western skyrim. Meanwhile the dark brotherhood assassinate the emperor and kill the elder counsel member who hired them. The chaos allows the dragon born to push the advantage across skyrim assault the Thalmor embassy and take Haafingar hold. A moot is then held if the player has kissed enough Jarl ass they become high king. Alternatively if the dragonborn joined the legion a similar thing could happen except you can garner favor with imperial generals. You gain fame as dragonborn and the empire starts taking land in Eastern Skyrim. Delphine discovers your identity as dragonborn and seeks you out. You start covertly hunting down thalmor and their supporters. You use the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric to discredit him and the storm cloaks start losing support. After the assassination of Titis Meade Ulfric decides to challenge the dragonborn I'd imagine him saying I'll match my thu'um against yours or something. The dragonborn then defeats Ulfric in nord combat reforms the blades and makes a bid to become emperor.

[@rhysgarland9295]

@ABCDEFG yes but the basis of the entire civil war is that the Empire interpreted it as murder. Also Ulfric knew full well that it wasn't a fair challenge, Toryg didn't stand a chance against him & Ulfric knew that full well.

[@Firstgenamerican21]

Michael: “Perhaps a new emperor. Perhaps a better one” Me: “perhaps the first galactic empire?” 🤣😂

[@mrcopycat2355]

Elisif: The Moot will decide your fate Ulisif: I AM THE MOOT!

[@Firstgenamerican21]

@@mrcopycat2355 🤣😂. I can’t. That’s hilarious. Love it.

[@JR-fi1ku]

Last time I was this early, Ysgramor still hadn't left Atmora.

[@andykegs5584]

Honestly the biggest issue with all of this discussion is it’s very high level, we only get a few perspectives from random individuals and often they are very much an embodiment of a really one-sided mindset. I’d love to have had the opportunity to know what some of the elves and non-human races think of the whole situation. Often people you speak to are only interested in their own circumstances, dark elves in Windhelm being an exception due to their circumstances being a result of the civil war. Do imperialised elves care about Tiber Septim or what he did to their homelands or do they just want to live a life like many of the other races. I want to see the fall of the Cyrodillic empire and the rise of new powers so for me it would be way more interesting to see a Stormcloak victory then ES6 takes place after Ulfric’s death and we hear of a very different Skyrim who has won their independence but then realised they have many ‘foreigners’ who consider themselves citizens of Skyrim so we see a nation that has evolved in an unexpected way with a surprisingly diverse idea of what it means to be a true Son or Daughter of the land.

[@thalmoragent9344]

I imagine some of the Elves would see it as a practicality. I doubt Altmer or Bosmer would ever worship Talos, a human God, and one who had committed atrocities against their homeland relatively recently, however, any Altmer on Summerset or so may move to Cyrodiil for purely business reasons, as there's no point in letting humans explore and take in all they know of Summerset if they can't explore the other Provinces themselves, and if an Altmer couple has a kid on the mainland, then that kid grows up with some traditional Elven ideals, like Auriel instead of Akatosh, and they're only living in Mundus because of the Human gods... however are less staunch in their supremacy mindset than say, the Thalmor of course. So I imagine a lot of "Queen Ayrenn" type of Altmer are in Tamriel, so they know their history, acknowledge their origins and all that, but don't harbor hatred/animosity towards humans, and simply travel and live in Tamriel to make a living. Of course, that's the main way I'd assume many Altmer would approach it, I'm sure some would not like humans but soften up, or just view things the same they always do, but saw better opportunities out of Summerset. Some may not care as much, but I don't see many Mer really worshipping Talos at all, in all honesty. I see him as a purely human worshipped God, but that may just be me.

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

@@thalmoragent9344 i feel like the altmer are like china or successful north koreans where they project nobility, order and prestige to outside world but then when you find individuals outside the island they criticise the island as a stuffy, rigid society of tyrants ruling the masses and joy of escaping the hellhole that is summerset for freedom in tamriel

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@Angelo-nd4lg Eh, but then again, that may be more modern Summerset, under the radical Thalmor of this Dominion. Some other Mer did leave back in the Merethic Era to expand and spread upon Tamriel, like the Direnni and Aylieds to name a couple, so you're right that some may want to leave, but they kept their old ways regardless, so we may both be right in that respect

[@sercravenmohead3631]

Well for the beast races they are probably pro-Imperial because of their anti-slavery stance, House Hlaalu I believe is the pro-Imperial dunmer house that likes trading with the Empire. The Orcs are probably happy because the Empire accepts everyone in society it’s a great opportunity for some that don’t want to live in a clan anymore.. ect I just think anyone in Tamriel that is tired of the same dogmatic shit get to live in a more modern and free society.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@sercravenmohead3631 Eh, the Orcs just wanted their own place, and the Orcs may be accepted as Shock Troopers. The Empire doesn't really accept or respect all orcs, outside of, ya know, the occasional Heavy Imperial Trooper or Smith, but even then, plenty of strongholds existed even during the Empire

[@zee446]

1:05:11 Yes, I think it's still the same Empire. Just because it doesn't have the same dynasty doesn't mean it isn't the same empire. England have been ruled by many dynasties, have gone through many reformation, and a lot of cultural and technological change but people still considered it as the same England in the medieval times. And i haven't even mention the fact that the only change the Empire has is just territorial and what dynasty rule it; while the culture, law, and technology remain unchanged

[@louisvictor3473]

I sometimes consider myself the Queen of England - people considering things don't automatically mean they're not wrong.

[@crabinijig8403]

the loss of the dragon blood emperor harms overall state identity. The worst thing to have been happening is the continuation of the empire and not the start of a republic. But weird thing is that cyrodill had counties with massive autonomy in oblivion, and each area boasts a unique culture sometimes tied closely to the neighboring provinces. The mede dynasty was famously founded by the conquest of cyrodiil, and it would seem like a natural progression for another fu civil war to unfold after the dark brotherhood assassination. The decades of talos ban have eroded the religious plight with youth, but i bet that most agree it is horrible having thalmor walking around. I'd imagine that massive midnight raids in the past have given insurgency movements in the province more legitimacy, (like those once done in afghanistan) and the reason the stormcloaks are able to push back so much is thanks to them. The empire has extremely proficient censors so we wouldn't hear much in skyrim if it meant that it would lead to more rebellion.

[@zee446]

@@23Raind oh yeah, i forgot about that

[@zee446]

@Sanguine well i'm not counting the Anglo-Saxon anyway

[@DagothDaddy]

It's hard not to sympathize with the storm cloaks but the idea that they could hold off the Thalmor alone when the empire couldn't do it united is also hard to believe.

[@FazeParticles]

guerrilla armies often beat larger more advanced armies by attrition and morale.

[@Little-eq9tb]

You also have to consider that if the Dragonborn we’re to side with the storm cloaks the Thalmor would not stand a chance. Also along with the terrain of Skyrim that’s probably part of the reason the Thalmor lost Hammerfell.

[@antonakesson]

@@FazeParticles Stormcloaks arent really guerrilla fighter, now are they? Way more for open combat as that is honerable and leads to Valhal... I mean Sovengarde.

[@Subject_Keter]

If the Stormcloaks are able to do hit and run operations, not get caught in drawn out fights and just be enough of a pain to hold out, they got a decent chance since if they hide their allegiance, you wouldn't be able to tell. Doe that goes out the Window if the Thamlor just goes in with it full magical front but that seems unlikely unless they really need something

[@Extradecentskeleton]

@@Little-eq9tb the dragoborn is most likely going to be a non factor. Can't really have new story's with characters that strong around, it's partly why the neverine wasn't in Morrowind during the oblivion crisis

[@archmagemc3561]

If it doesn't let you get rid of the high elves, its the bad faction. High Elves are the true villains of the elder scrolls series.

[@Extradecentskeleton]

Ehh depends on the age. High elf's are definitely dicks but if I was an altmer and a guy sent a giant robot time God to attack my he because he just wants to conquer everything I'm pretty sure he's the bad guy

[@archmagemc3561]

@@Extradecentskeleton Nah, anything, even an undead or daedric army made to specifically wipe out the thalmar are the good guys for the simple fact the thalmar's plan is to destroy all of reality in a vein attempt to try to gain godhood.

[@Mysticpaw]

Thalmor are the bad guys and not all high elves are thalmor.

[@Connordaboss45]

Were they bad guys when they spread the cure to a plague made by argonians. Or when they aided the all flags navy to kill the sloads who tried to wipe out all of Tamriel. Or when they surrendered to the Empire and had genocide committed upon them anyway?

[@Mysticpaw]

@@Connordaboss45 Good point. I love this game series, because there are some real life aspects like this: nothing is not black and white.

[@scottnunnemaker5209]

Skyrim could defend against the empire, they have a godlike Dragonborn

[@obijuanquenobi1911]

Assuming the Dragonborn wouldn't disappear like the other Elder Scrolls PCs

[@obijuanquenobi1911]

​@Sanguine Gameplay limitations are the reason for that. For example, most of the cities you see are supposed to be much bigger than you see in gameplay. They did better with that in ESO but I think it's easier in a MMO than a RPG. Even the civil war in the game was supposed to be much bigger because you can see a lot of it on cut content. It's very hard to depict everything perfectly without causing a nuclear explosion on PCs and consoles. I am Obi Juan Quenobi, leading skooma dealer in Tamriel, and thank you for attending my TED talk.

[@slyskitzo]

@Sanguine Tbh the LDB would give the tribunal a run for there money, the thu’um is one of the most busted abilities in the ES universe. Keep in mind LDB knows Bend Will and dragonrend. He or she absorbed Miraak’s soul which in tail means he absorbed all of miraaks knowledge on the thu’um and his powers/abilities on the thu’um as well. With all that said where looking at an individual who can challenge lesser to normal like gods and can take over entire armies by making them his or her own.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

That’s if the Dragonborn helps them and not the Empire.

[@ghostrowski4624]

​@@sercravenmohead3631the dragonborn wouldn't help the empire or the imperials and that's just facts

[@redrick7369]

It's weird, because the Stormcloaks could probably hold Skyrim with enough effort, but to deal with the Thalmor they'd almost need Tullius.

[@Trephining]

Not necessarily. I think the Stormcloaks could generally just make it very difficult and expensive for the Thalmor to continue to try to dominate Skyrim, making it become their smarter decision to just be hands-off with the whole place. Let the Nords be Nords.

[@Saxton_Hoovy]

@@Trephining issue is they likely won't dominate skyrim , they likely try to exterminate them like the nords did to the snow elves.

[@totower9597]

@@Trephining I doubt that. Skyrim might hold but the empire and highrock wouldn't without skyrim helping. Which with ulfics ego I doubt he would. After they fall hammerfell and skyrim would be next. 5 provinces v 2 provinces isn't a fair fight. Blackmarsh and Morrowind would probably be neutral due to ulfics racism and the threat of each other. Dunmer inslaved the argonians and they invaded in return. Lastly let's not forget skyrim and hammerfell both are recovering from 2 wars each. For hammerfell its the great war they were invaded and a war of independence. Skyrim had 2 civil wars and had 2 of their best citys winterhold and Riften fall into the ocean and burn down less then a century ago. I'm not saying ulfic is the bad choice but I am saying that if he didn't revolt skyrim the empire and the greater world would be in a better position. Like alvor said ulfic started this war for himself, not the ban of talos. "We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me." "People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim."

[@maxgoss5653]

I feel like the storm cloak ending will be canon because it makes for a much more interesting political scene come ES6. The second Great War is coming 🔥

[@smithingbear7522]

I doubt their going to confirm either ending of the questline as canon. That just isn't how Bethesda has been doing things with TES.

[@maxgoss5653]

@@smithingbear7522 True they’ll more than likely go with season unending as the cannon. I just hope not bc then it kinda takes away from the endings we experienced as players IMO

[@smithingbear7522]

@@maxgoss5653 I'm thinking they'll say something happened but they won't describe what happened so that any ending to those quests could feasibly happen.

[@slyskitzo]

@@smithingbear7522 I’m betting it’s season unending, the LDB is the ultimate anti dominion hero that thwarts the thalmors plans.

[@myself2noone]

If they actually confirm an ending it would probably be the one that would have happened without the Player Character there. So imperial if it happens.

[@DrLynch2009]

Redguards: "The White-Gold Concordant is injust and our provinces can survive on our own with ease." Nords: "Agree. Elves must not dictates the fate of Men." Empire: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

[@Nollic15]

RACIST NORDS /s

[@thalmoragent9344]

The difference is that the Redguards didn't wage war with the Empire, they kept fighting and seceded from the Empire, renounced by Titus Mede the second himself.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@sleepykhajiit1875 Yeah, so why doesn't Ulfric "take our want to the Dominion" instead of fighting the Empire? They could've done what Hammerfell did, but just stead fought the Empire. The Empire didn't invade Skyrim, if I recall correctly, Skyrim joined this Empire willingly under Tiber Septim, and they were in the Empire when the Great War started. The Empire didn't do any invading. The Stormcloaks are rebelling against the Empire, not defending it from invaders, considering many of them were actually in the Legions as well... so 🤷🏿

[@Practitioner_of_Diogenes]

As while they agree that elves aren't that good, they would very much disagree about Shor (AKA, Lorkhan). The comparison to Shor for the Redguards is Sep. Redguards don't like Sep.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@sleepykhajiit1875 Hammerfell didn't rebel, just refused to accept the Concordat. The Empire isn't invading Skyrim, it's self defense.

[@Alexandros.Mograine]

I just found your podcast and gotta say its got me hooked. really like how all of you seem truly interested in the world of elder scrolls. also skyrim lore is just so interesting because it leaves alot of stuff to speculation and generates talk.

[@user-ok4ll2ww5e]

I'm not gonna lie, this hands down was one of my favorite podcasts. Hope it comes back 🤞

[@mesektet5776]

The smart thing to do would be for the Empire and Skyrim secretly “let Skyrim succeed” and crush the Thalmor agents, then through “shrewd peace negotiations” allow it o rejoin the Empire. Let the Thalmor think what they want, it’s a “prove it, yo” situation.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Yeah, but Skyrim would be a part of the Empire again, which is still beholden by the White-Gold Concordat... Killing the Thalmor Agents there would also spark increased Dominion activity, if not just straight up lead to another War

[@morrigankasa570]

The best thing would be: Stormcloaks win the Civil War, then the Dragonborn becomes High King, after that they gather a massive army of Dragons, also negotiates a peace between the Empire and Skyrim and Hammerfell and Morrowind and Black Marsh, High Rock, and then finally all these forces combine to attack Summerset Isles and wipe out all the Thalmor sparing the Children and Prisoners of the Thalmor. Afterwards head to Khajit lands and Valenwood demanding they give up any Thalmor agents/supporters in those lands. When they do so expand the peace treaty to include those places. After that head back to the Mainland and the Dragonborn steps down as High King giving Ulfric the throne as long as the peace treaty negotiated remains in place. Then the Dragonborn and Dragon Army heads to explore Akivair (unsure spelling).

[@Jimmyinvictus]

@@thalmoragent9344 I just wanted to say that seeing this comment from "Thalmor Agent" made my day!

[@badluck5647]

The Empire should let Skyrim succeed in exchange for a military alliance with a mutual defense clause. That way the Empire still get troops from Skyrim without having to enforce the Thalmor's will in Skyrim.

[@mesektet5776]

@@morrigankasa570 Thing is it is very likely the Dragonborn will become Emperor no matter which side wins. Remember what they said about the Wolf Queen - “If she were to return to life she would have legal right to the throne due to her line to the original royal bloodline - the Dragon Blood of Emperors. And who else by the canonical end of Skyrim has proven Dragon Blood? If the Stormcloack win The empire might need to realign it’s capital to Skyrim to accommodate the legal new Emperor. If the Empire win, well what a take for the history books? The new Emperor proved him/herself by putting down a civil-war, naturally for the Empire. I get the feeling we will have a Hero of Kvatch cameo situation, where it is hinted at the current Emperor of the Imperials has ascended after proving themselves in the last game.

[@Ghost-cu3ge]

In my mind, due to the Imperials wanting to take my head just for entering their territory, is reason enough to side with the Stormcloaks.

[@THANAT0S_]

Crossing a border in war was a serious crime in medieval times

[@kurtslavain]

@@THANAT0S_ In real life medieval times perhaps, but not in TES universe. Especially if you're a free person, having nothing to do with the ongoing war. Not justified.

[@myself2noone]

Revenge is a poor moral guide.

[@lonewolf-re2fg]

I've been waiting for this episode forever!

[@merrychristamas94]

I can't believe im just now discivering that you guys have a podcast. I've enjoyed your content for YEARS - excuse me while I lock myself into my Skyrim lair and listen to all your podcasts now Love you guys

[@fuckoffcesare6055]

Its been a while since ive played so hear me out here. I like Ulfric a lot, I think after hearing his speech when you first enter the palace of kings you really get a feel for his passion. Most of my playthoughs I pick the stormcloaks because their cause feels like the more rightgeous one to me.

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

Second best speech ever to heimskr

[@Draezeth]

For sure, Ulfric is a charismatic leader. I love how well they showed that. But I can't follow him because, charismatic as he is, and convinced as he is that his cause is righteous, there is no substance. He fights for justice for something that happened to *him.* His ideals are hollow, he just does a good job talking them up. Really, credit to the writers for making such a nuanced character. Such a shame the quest got so watered down.

[@CatHasOpinions734]

It's so fascinating how many peoples opinions on the war come down to how they feel about Ulfric specifically. Personally, yes that speech is incredible, but his actions make it hard for me to side with him (I always tell myself "I'm going to do a stormcloak playthrough this time", and I always get fed up and either side with the imperials or get a mod to be a conscientious objector). We know for a fact that Torygg would have been happy to have a conversation with Ulfric, and that the reason this didn't happen is because Ulfric had already made up his mind to basically deliver a death sentence. We know what cities and towns in Skyrim have more obvious injustice and in general appear to be more poorly managed, and most are on the Stormcloak side of the map (the main exception being Markarth, which Ulfric was also involved in). Heck, even if we wanted to just look at the one city Ulfric is currently in charge of, you barely have to arrive before other nords are telling you that he, or at least people acting on his behalf, demonstrably don't care about citizens of Skyrim that aren't nords, and that there's a serial murderer that isn't being taken seriously. It's a wonderful speech, but ultimately, it doesn't do anything to help the people of Windhelm, and if that's how he handles one city, I don't trust him with the rest of Skyrim.

[@basedautist3761]

I feel like a podcast episode between 3 lore masters debating who the strongest TES protagonist is would be amazing to listen to. Regardless of that keep up the great work guys, your content is awesome. CHRIST IS KING

[@theone2762]

Umm, nerevarine. For sure.

[@basedautist3761]

@@theone2762 Idk about “for sure”. The HoK is a Daedric Prince and TLD can pause time with his voice alone. None of these individuals are pushovers in the slightest. CHRIST IS KING

[@theone2762]

@@basedautist3761 yeah I kinda forget about HoK becoming Sheogorath, that could be helpful. But, well that means that HoK kinda is capable of no one know what, and so I'm not sure if stopping time can help you in fighting with someone who can change you into a sweetroll at will.

[@basedautist3761]

@@theone2762 HoK mantling Sheogorath is huge, but Nerevarine defeated multiple demi-gods and TLB defeated the World Eater and prevented the next Kalpa from initiating. The one thing I will say is that TLB being able to stop time with his voice is absurdly powerful. You can have all the amazing spells and potential buffs allotted to the other combattants but if time stops the moment the fight begins and TLB hits you before you can activate them, you’ll probably die. I’m not sure if that matters against HoK considering he effectively became a Daedric Prince. It really depends on how Alduin scales to the Daedric Princes. Edit: Although it is only in game, the Slow Time shout affects everything in the world around you. This includes the many Daedric entities you encounter in Skyrim. I’m not sure if that should be considered a gameplay concession or not, but based on the lore behind the Thu’um I don’t think it’s crazy to say a strong enough user could affect Daedric Princes with it.

[@theone2762]

@@basedautist3761 the problem with Alduin is that he's technically a god and he should be able to stop time and kinda use any other shout as well and only reason he doesn't is that so we as a player had a chance facing him.

[@morrigankasa570]

ALL HAIL TALOS AND THE STORMCLOAKS!!!

[@ryanhau1073]

An interesting note. When you get into Sovngarde, you will find both Stormcloaks and Imperials Solders and even their Leaders there, that strongly implies that one side isn't less Honorable than the other, at least by Nordic Standards of Honor. Seeing that Ulfric use claims of Nordic Tradition as a rallying cry, there is a lot to think about seeing that the Actual Nordic Gods (Not the 9/8 that was thought up by the Imperials) view both sides more or less the same

[@theamericankaiser4549]

I would like you guys to talk about the ESO factions cause I loved each factions campaign and even made a full on argument for each faction and their values to end goals to determine my faction of choice. If you guys want I would be down to write out all the parts for y'all to review during the podcast. I think it's fun to talk about factions cause it helps us get into deeper concepts and I love to see everyone's level of reasoning. Cause it took me a year of playing the game fully and truly picking my fav faction when comparing their pros and cons.

[@ethandalton8306]

Maybe Alduin does need to eat the world

[@mrcopycat2355]

You know, a resurrected Potema doesn't seem as bad of a choice, either

[@luckyjedi429]

17:21 This sounds like Ulfric’s big speech to Galmar when you first enter the Palace of the Kings. “I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!”

[@dimasgalvan7493]

Interesting what Michael said about Ulric hating that part of himself in the empire.. makes a lot of sense

[@MrDelferi123]

Everything is Lorkhan's fault. Whether you consider "everything" to be generally a good or a bad thing is a matter of perspective.

[@levi_ackerman_119]

Damn it, Lorkhan…

[@bootygoblin7672]

Blessed Shor guide my blade so it may rest in the head of elves

[@cullenbrewer4032]

Honestly this didn't feel like an "imperial vs stormcloak" video. It felt like a "why the stormcloaks aren't evil" video.

[@_EddyT]

Yes it did, I feel like they don't do a good job actually talking about the topic, just justifying the stormcloaks.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@_EddyT Because FM are Stormcloak fanboys.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@23Raind Nope. I just know the lore.

[@_EddyT]

@@sleepykhajiit1875 that still does not explain why more than half of the video is dedicated to justifying the stormcloaks all the things that you said that they did all happen with me the last 15 minutes which means for 45 minutes and I have been listening to justification for the stormcloaks

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@23Raind Shouldn't you be talking about how Kyne and Kynareth are one and the same?

[@josevitorcalfa2]

I personally got a huge problem with Skyrim in the Role Playing department. I think that more options and outcomes are missing. For example, a post civil war quest against the Thalmor is something that would greatly benefit the game. Or options for you to force a more welcoming, less racist attitude from Ulfric & Company in case you side with them. Or options for you to stop public executions and force some historic repair from the Empire (Angi's family assassinations and her persecution by the empire come to my mind).

[@badluck5647]

The xenophobia of the Stormcloaks and the religious persecution by the Empire is part of what makes the choice of sides more compelling. The point is supposed to be where each side is neither all good or all bad.

[@errantvice7335]

I think one of the major things about Jarl Ulfric’s “Liberation” of western Skyrim would set a precedent of succession via civil war. Assuming ulfric wins, and he dies a few years down the line, what is to stop multiple jarls from claiming the throne, and violently conquering the other holds to place jarls willing to support them in the moot to achieve this?

[@Luigi_Mario_1997]

Can you guys do a podcast on Molag Bal? I would love to see his nature explored and solved by you guys. I just got done watching a video on a Skyrim mod called “Vigilant,” and some of the voice lines by Sheogorath helped flesh out the essence of his nature: Molag Bal. Fire-Stone. An ugly beast of Sithis. One who is burnt by stone, who burns his own soul-never finding respite. A jealous Daedra, who spites creation because he cannot die (return to Sithis) and find requiem.

[@Kirasupporter1]

Defending the empire after they try to kill you for no reason is just the dumbest thing you can do

[@dutchpatriot17]

You're the kind of guy who'd join ISIS because one US captain made a bad call.

[@Kirasupporter1]

@@dutchpatriot17 And you are the kind of guy who would blow a cop to show what a good little subject you are

[@dutchpatriot17]

​@@Kirasupporter1Got anything other than ad hominems? Course not.

[@swamp1138]

​@@dutchpatriot17Such is the battle of winning hearts and minds. The Imperials also committed executions without a trial. Also didn't help that Gen Tullias was seen speaking with the Thalmor upon arriving to Helgen. In a hypothetical scenario, it'd be pretty dumb siding with the Imperials.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@swamp1138 The Thalmor were literally at Helgen to try and save Ulfric's ass, lol.

[@realzachfluke1]

Definitely do a part 2 to this one if you can. Also...LOOK HOW CLOSE YOU GUYS ARE TO A MILLION SUBS!!!!!_ By the gods, we've come such a long way. Can't wait to see that day.

[@deodrasshelios7957]

When killing Ulfric at the end of the Civil War questline, Lydia yelled "You call yourself a Nord?!" at Ulfric. Never heard such a low blow in my life!

[@Abel-wh2ro]

based lydia

[@kingclint2382]

Damn, she ripped apart his soul without using soul tear.

[@morrigankasa570]

HOW DARE YOU KILL ULFRIC!!! I always side with the Stormcloaks because so many Imperial Sympathizers are corrupt and a few are even at the Thalmor Embassy. The only Imperial Jarl I wish could be spared is: Balgruuf.

[@kingclint2382]

@@morrigankasa570 I like Ulfric too, but can we just appreciate Lydia's savagery 💀 here.

[@morrigankasa570]

@@kingclint2382 Her savagery is fine, though I personally by the time I do the Civil War Questline have Serana as follower and Lydia as a Steward for my Falkreath House.

[@ojan715]

I see a lot of similarities between Skyrim civil war and Pellopennesian/Ancient Greek civil war (431 - 405 BCE) between Spartan aka Stormcloak and Athen aka The Empire. Both happened after a great war against foreign invasion (Aldmeri Diminion / Persian Empire). Both use the classic Red vs Blue to represent each side (though in Skyrim, the colors are switched). And both civil wars was sponsored by the invaders behind the screen. If Bethesda really use Pellopennesian war as reference, then we know who won this war, spoiler alert its Spartan aka Stormcloak.

[@renegade11b45]

Interesting!

[@bronoculars2551]

Drew's mustache looking cool af.

[@LukerinoP]

I can't wait to listen to this on my usually very boring morning train ride to school

[@luckyjedi429]

This is probably one of my most favorite episodes of the podcast

[@jackofthegreen7529]

I wouldn't say stormcloaks as a whole are xenophobic, even ulfric himself asks bretons of high rock to help but their don't reply, I think with nords you have to earn their respect they dont just give it. once you have earned their respect they will leave you alone this is even implied by niranye a high elf.

[@Angelo-nd4lg]

Exactly as a redguard traveling tamriel the stormcloaks accept my plea of service with no issues but a little test but those imperials just want to take my head

[@ezraefraimbies9770]

I remember that in the Jagged Crown quest Ralof says that he had heard some bad things about Ulfric and had been quite disappointed but still wouldn't quit the Stormcloaks. As being the Thalmor asset is probably well guarded secret, I think that he was talking about the racism towards other races. Remember that no matter your race, you are always considered a friend by Ralof. While Ulfric and most of the Nords in Windhelm may be xenophobic, I think it can't be applied to ALL of the Stormcloaks. Most of them are probably people feeling betrayed by the Empire, hoping that as an intependent kingdom Skyrim would be much better place to live. That's why I think most people judging the Stormcloaks are pretty unfair. Right, Ulfric is an asshole when it comes to how he acts or how he treats non-human races. But the Stormcloaks as an army are full of brave men who wish to liberate their people from Thalmor's oppression. Even Tullius and Rikke understand and respect that, although obviously they stay loyal to the Empire and fight the rebels.

[@KombatKastle]

Yeah these guys throw around “Xenophobic” “their racist” but they ignore the details and context.

[@danielshore1457]

@@ezraefraimbies9770 also ulfic is most likely unaware of being a thalmor asset like let's be honest he would hate to be used as a thalmor asset and if he knew he would like do something about it

[@ChrisVillagomez]

@@danielshore1457 I side with the Empire and I also think that he would and should be pretty pissed about learning to be a Thalmor asset, but honestly, the fact that Ulfric lets the High Elf merchant hang out in the city but makes the Dunmer sit in the slums, the Argonians stay out in the East Empire Bunkhouses because they're not liked by the Nords of the city, and Khajiit are completely banned from the city just like the rest of Skyrim is kinda weird. Why is there no extreme racism towards the High Elves according to the merchant, who lead the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor? It's always sat weird with me idk why, maybe it literally is that they look more like humans than the other races I listed

[@LysergicKids]

Bethesda did a fairly good job at making both factions equally unlikable. That being said, I typically side with the Stormclocks because I like their rebellious nature and dislike authority. Not to mention, the empire is crumbling and only but a shell of what it used to be.

[@Winrarnt]

The empire died with Martin

[@VindensSaga]

Stormcloaks are just another authority though.

[@akhnatenpage4854]

Id definitely say both are unlikable, but the stormcloaks are openly racist so i always side with the empire.

[@thevreelander]

You hit it perfectly, Bethesda made them both equally unlikeable! You literally have to choose between a group with open racists in it vs a group that is enabling the genocide of a religious group!

[@localagoraphobe]

Bruh they're *HUGE* racists, that's why I always exterminate them.

[@gabr.7878]

I like these kind of videos, they are amazing

[@TheRoguePrince0]

I've been at the mercy of imperials just following orders. Never again!

[@Valencetheshireman927]

You were caught in the middle of an ambush with STORMCLOAKS, suspicious…

[@Valencetheshireman927]

Commander Shepard, I’m disappointed in you. You united an entire galaxy to fight against the reapers yet here you want to divide Tamriel against the Thalmor?

[@TheRoguePrince0]

@@Valencetheshireman927 no I'm fighting the Thalmor by taking out the empire. If this was me2 the empire would be the Collectors Me3 the empire is Cerberus being controlled by the reapers/the Thalmor

[@Valencetheshireman927]

@@TheRoguePrince0 “No, I’m fighting the Thalmor by taking out the empire” Which is exactly what the Thalmor wants us to do. They want us to fight against the empire and each other because they want us to be divided. The empire is their biggest enemy so by fighting the empire the Stormcloaks are actually playing into their hands and even if it wasn’t they’re still weakening any potential resistance to the Thalmor. If this was Me3 the empire would be the Alliance and the Stormcloaks would be the Cerberus (unknowingly playing into the hands of the Reapers, the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric shows this).

[@TheRoguePrince0]

@@Valencetheshireman927 you sound like the illusive man from me3

[@rhett6946]

I’m an Imperial mostly, but I do find it odd how two of the confirmed ‘evil’ factions in the game being Alduin and the Thalmor were both there to try and stop Ulfric’s death, namely to further their own interests. I see this in two ways: - Alduin stops Ulfric’s execution because more men dying in Skyrim means more souls in Sovngarde for him to devour and become stronger (ultimately being his downfall and letting the Dragonborn escape to kill him in Sovngarde) - The Thalmor try to stop Ulfric’s execution so that it weakens both Skyrim and the Empire as long as they continue fighting, but and I’m speculating here: they (like Alduin) inadvertently sealed their doom by allowing the Dragonborn to escape. My headcannon now is that since LDB made the right choices to defeat Alduin, they would’ve made the right choice on who to side with in the civil war and eventually goes on to defeat the Thalmor.

[@bootygoblin7672]

I'm pretty sure alduin just gets spat out of the time loop right at helgen and senses the dragonborn. I don't think he actually knows or even cares ylfric is there since he's basically a god given form. At least in. The pre retcon lore he's a extinction lvl threat

[@cptndunsel2670]

I think Alduin was in Helgen looking for the Dovahkiin. I don't think he knows or even cares about the Stormcloak rebellion, because it is beneath his concern.

[@IoannesPalaiologos]

Yes, the chances of standing against the Thalmor are obiviously better if the Imperials win, but have nobody considered that if the Stormcloaks were to win, they would eventually stand side by side with mankind against the Thalmor in the end? All reasons point to that more likely than the often discussed hypothesis "what if stormcloaks have to fight thalmor alone" situation. It seems lorewise, through all the games we have had, that the Empire will eventually disolve, Hammerfell is independent, Skyrim is in a civil war for freedom or being a part of the empire, Morrowind is gone. It seems like they are pushing the narrative that all of Tamriel will become independent. Stormcloaks are for more likely to fight beside the Empire when the Great War comes, than standing alone stubbornly. Yes yes Ulfric may be a wild card, but he won't be there forever, and regardless, he is a cunning leader willing to do completely different things than what he says.

[@DrEdgarr]

It's more beneficial for Nords to go fight and assist their allies, considering Skyrim already suffered some damage from civil war risking further damage on its own infrastructure and populance seems stupid, also Nord honour won't allow sitting idly when other men fight the elves.

[@IoannesPalaiologos]

@@DrEdgarr I agree

[@sercravenmohead3631]

There would be a lack of cohesion and the forces of Skyrim would fight for their interests and not for the good of all, under the imperial banner they were United and that’s why the Thalmor are instigated and supporting Ulfric to keep the civil war going.

[@IoannesPalaiologos]

@@sercravenmohead3631 no

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@@IoannesPalaiologos Really? Gonna rely on egomaniacal Ulfric to save the world?

[@Captain_Hapton]

I always pick the Stormcloaks for one reason, one reason only, and for a reason everybody completely overlooks. *THE IMPERIALS TRIED TO CUT MY FUCKING HEAD OFF!!!!!!*

[@GrahamMilkdrop]

^^^^^ This!! ^^^^^ Why would anyone choose to deliver themselves back into the hands of the people who had your neck on a block and were one swing of an axe away from cutting off your head while having no charges against you to justify it? From a roleplaying perspective, at the start of the game you have no knowledge of any of the history or political background.

[@ramonp7399]

Still love playing Skyrim and watching the podcast along with it