Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | The Baratheon Brothers | Podcast

[@yankeefan2k2]

I love this “describe the Baratheons as an item” thing. I would add Robert the Tree, (proud tall majestic), Renly it’s leaves (malleable, pretty, green as in naive) and Stannis the trees roots (strong, reliable, under the surface, and therefore not appreciated like the other two)

[@josephjanisch5396]

Robert was a true hickory, strong and hardy. Stannis was oak, strong but brittle. Renly was pine, flexible but not very useful

[@MrJakewray]

That's really good

[@yourztruly8255]

I’m surprised they didn’t heart this it’s a very good metaphor

[@IngTomT]

Here's mine: Robert is a bloody steak and a huge mug of beer. Delicious but hard to digest and leaves you with a headache the next day. Stannis is porridge and a glass of water. Boring but healthy. Renly is cotton candy and a can of lemonade. Very sweet but devoid of any nutrition.

[@dylanjones2295]

Ryan You’re too good at that, make an asoiaf podcast now lol

[@sunkist1309]

Renlys peach is one of my favorite things in this series. It gives character to stannis showing that he’s not a monster and genuinely feels sorrow over the death of his younger brother. It’s almost poetic

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

indeed !!!

[@ReeceDee]

Damn, Stannis as king with Renly as hand would've been a master stroke. The fact he even offered Renly to be his heir...Prince of dragonstone and Lord of storms end he would've totally been open to making Renly his Hand if it meant he'd relinquish his claim.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

Here is mine for the Baratheon brothers. The War hammer (Robert, only good for one thing battle. He lives for battle, it isn't good for self defense, it's a pain to carry around but he's the one you want leading the charge into battle, the fiercest and most terrifying of the weapons.) The Sword, (Stannis, he is good at battle, but he isn't going to rust away or be less effective out of war. He is always ready to be unsheathed to do what needs to be done.) The Banner, (Renly, he isn't strong by himself. He isn't a great warrior, but he can lead people, he can bring people to his cause and direct them.)

[@girlnettles]

VERY GOODDD 👏👏👏👏👏

[@dylanjones2295]

I love this one

[@wayne47able]

For me Robert is Iron, Strong at it’s peak but susceptible to rust (hence Robert becoming an obese, womanizing drunk and shadow of a man who was once known as the demon of the Trident.) Stannis is absolutely RELENTLESS, he won’t stop no matter the odds. He won’t shirk from a task no matter how difficult and he won’t bend even if he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Renly is the politician, great talker, attractive, and will promise you the world while delivering you absolutely nothing

[@ferniek5000]

Stanice is Ice, Robert is water, Renly is vapor. Stanis could break stone with patience and strength. Robert has great strength, but his course is maleable. Renly is hot and can move things, but he is ephemeral and not tied to one purpose or form.

[@ashleyofnaath]

Robert= Greywind Stannis= Nymeria Renly= Lady

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I really like that

[@iwantsomecookies08]

I dunno.. Stannis was pretty ephemeral while he was slitting Renly’s throat

[@Cheezwizzie]

I think that Renly would have grown to be a somewhat different man had Robert not given him storms end. Because he was given something he was never meant to have set the stage for what he did. He felt that he was Robert's true heir since he was lord of storms end.

[@sleekoduck]

Robert and Renly were both more like Egg than Stannis, too.

[@julianasilveira4806]

@@sleekoduck yes! Totally agree. Great comparison!

[@bensonfang1868]

@@sleekoduck doesn’t that make Renly a better choice for king? Egg is the model ruler for any monarchy.

[@jacobenke7936]

@@bensonfang1868 Renly was not like Egg, Renly was Littlefinger with less brains and more power. He always felt himself entitled to more. Had Renly been given Dragonstone, the Island would have fallen. That was why Jon A. had Robert send Stannis there, a man had been needed on Dragonstone, and Renly was never a man.

[@ashleyofnaath]

One of my favorite Stannis moments- that reflects Dave's point about Stannis's occasional bending- is in TWOW Theon I. Asha goes to Stannis to appeal for Theon's life on the grounds that killing their mentally ill mother's last remaining son would destroy what's left of her, and Stannis not only listens to Asha but praises her as "wise" and apologizes for her mother's state. Stannis Baratheon APOLOGIZED! And while he didn't give Theon a stay of execution, he did change his mind (bend) and grant Asha's request to give Theon to the weirwood tree as opposed to burning him alive. Stannis had no reason to grant this mercy but agrees to it anyway. I love the nuance here. I don't think Stannis gets credit for how emotionally intelligent he is.

[@zacrusk5274]

If you reread that chapter or just their conversation part with the knowledge that asha and Stannis both know Arya is a fake, you see a whole new meaning to their conversation :)

[@ashleyofnaath]

@@zacrusk5274 There's no way either of them could know that, so I don't read it that way.

[@zacrusk5274]

@@ashleyofnaath hold on, I will link you a video that proves they both know. One second :)

[@ashleyofnaath]

@@zacrusk5274 Given that neither of them has ever seen the real Arya, or for that matter Jeyne Poole, there's no way they could know.

[@zacrusk5274]

@@ashleyofnaath if you wanna be close minded that’s on you. But that series shows it’s at least possible they both know. And there’s no way Stannis doesn’t know.

[@jschoma11]

For Mary Ellen's metaphor question.. Renly is a pomegranate..looks good in the supermarket and you like the idea of it but is tough to actually deal with when it comes down to it.. Stannis is oatmeal..doesn't excite anyone..but honestly is what you need and would serve you well.. Robert is an avocado..popular and trendy and is nutritional..but if you leave him on the shelf he'll rot

[@Lotschi]

I had a nice laughter at this, so accurate but original!

[@carmensavu5122]

Pomegranates are messy as hell to deal with and give me gas like nobody's business, even though they are delicious. So yes, quite accurate :))))).

[@n.y.174]

I want to believe that Robert kept Stannis as lord of dragonstone because he knew Joffrey was terrible. He asked Ned, "how could I have made a son like that?". Add that up with the cat incident, Ayra disarming him, and Robert projecting some of his dislike for Cersei onto him...he knew Joffrey was not a good choice and wanted to keep Stannis in that position. Even when he died Robert made sure to avoid giving Joffrey power. He set Ned up as regent. Also, why is John Arryn a freak? I am so curious now lol

[@faysuxxss]

Did you watch the Jon Arryn Video yet?

[@emmie11293]

I think I know why the Baratheon brothers were never princes - their father was never king. The reason the brothers of kings are princes, is because they were the son of a king. But because Robert was the first in his line, his brothers were never the son of a king. Now, I think there could still be an argument for Robert formally making at least Stanis a prince, as all kings are princes first. But that's just my thoughts on it 😊

[@mitchellanderson3960]

One issue with the title prince is it originally about being the ruler of a small state/kingdom subservant to a king or emperor. It is why Dorne are princes; they are rulers of a small kingdom under the King. A ruler of a princapality is also a prince. A prince being the heir in our history comes from Edward II being born in Wales after the English conquest which overthrew the rebellious previous prince of Wales and the title being granted to him and then all following heirs being given the title.

[@BucketThinkTank14657Nerd]

I think the big issue with the brothers is just they don’t know how to talk to each other, they’re a less horrible version of the Lannister siblings. Robert just sort of expects Stannis to understand why he gave him Dragonstone, Stannis expects Robert is slighting him by giving it to him, and Renlu expects everyone to like him because he’s essentially a spoiled brat. If the three of them could work together the realm would have been in a much better place but they couldn’t.

[@hz.kemalpasa2997]

Robert is a better Jaimie, Stannis is a harder Tyrion and Renly is a softet Cersei.

[@sunkist1309]

I loved how Dave described Robert as tragic. It’s so true. The robbert we got was a shadow, of a shadow of his former self.

[@mheyer5353]

Sadly I’ve never seen anyone really bring up how sentimental Stannis truly is. He only named the hawk Proudwing after the ship his parents allegedly died on, Windproud. Maybe tenuously, the story of the hawk serves as an allegory for Stannis’s character: the bird(Stannis) was broken(by his parents death) nursed back to health by his own care and everyone sees him as the fool for it

[@alismark1872]

A hard truth !!!

[@Phantom-38]

I would compare them to their signature weapons. Robert the warhammer: strong, no nonsense, but hard to control and prone to collateral damage. Stannis the sword: dependable, precise, deadly when guided to the right target. Renly the lance: very good when the stars align and circumstances just right but fragile and useful for just a short amount of time.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

well said

[@EPYHDA1]

Varys is committing the ultimate crime - he is plotting the regime change, and has been doing it at least since Jon Connington's "dying from drink". As far as Varys being useful - he freely admits to Tyrion that he is providing a bare minimum of information to the Crown, not to be dismissed. He is an expert in precise stoking of individual paranoias: Aerys about Rhaegar, Robert about Targaryans, Ned about Lannisters, Tyrion about safety of Shay... I cannot recall him actually delivering actionable intelligence, unless there was a danger of the Crown being informed by another source, and he seriously slipped allowing Baelish to anticipate him with Tyrel's Sansa marriage plot.

[@IkeVegas33]

Lyanna makes me mad because she said she wouldn't marry Robert because he wouldn't stick to one bed but then runs away with a married man. Like she kinda miffed up the whole world for a 33 year old married man with 2 kids and a wife

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

exactly !

[@DarkMasterofCupcakes]

It really is super hypocritical, that she says she doesn't want Robert because she thinks he'll sleep around after they're married, but almost immediately after runs off with a man that she knew was married with two children. She even seems to hold the fact that Robert had a child against him, while the fact that Rhaegar had two kids, who were both very young at the time and would probably be effected by their father leaving them to be with this woman they don't know, apparently doesn't matter to her.

[@jschoma11]

It was so much more romantic than that though..Elia was a good person, but she was a political match..I know OotGH fans don't love Rhaegar..but come on..consider this...Rhaegar was DEEPLY philosophical and trying to save the world based on prophecy and what he perceived as his destiny..Elia could not bear more children for health reasons...the dragon has 3 heads and his wife couldn't bear more than 2..I'm not convinced he didn't tell/ask Elia's permission to have a third..don't forget she's Dornish and their propensity towards having paramours/sexual liberties.. I'm not convinced it was just sexual attraction between Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think he told her everything about the 3 headed dragon and "song of ice and fire" and they believed they were doing something significant, not just "f'ing"..pardon my language..

[@tonysled6796]

@@jschoma11 I'm with Scott. Rhaegar didn't want Elia in the same way he wanted Lyanna clearly. And Lyanna was not willing to go down the route highborn women normally go down......Robert was a womanizer to the point of screwing up his chances with Lyanna and probably other candidates. Remember Cercei was desperate to be a high value betrothed since Tywin had promised her Rhaegar previously and could not deliver.....so Robert got a political marriage when he was probably in love but too used to women saying yes to him to confront himself and his own habits.....also its interesting how Stannis does not mention Lyanna. I think he learnt a great deal watching his older brother fail at love.....so much so that he knows how dangerous it can be

[@MusaMansu]

@@tonysled6796 This is a Medieval setting. Most women wouldn’t care that Robert was a womanizer. He was tall, rich, gorgeous and arguably the strongest warrior in the realm. Ned said that thousands of other women wanted to marry him and would have loved him with all their heart.

[@astrinymris9953]

13:58 I think Renly assumed that Stannis was a doormat who wouldn't give more than a token protest. After all, he'd seen Stannis serve Robert loyally for many years for scant gratitude. IOW, Renly mistook loyalty for subservience, and it cost him his life. Also, this IS a Medieval World, which means that the rules of inheritance are more flexible than in later periods. If enough people would rather have a competent, charismatic younger brother over an incompetent unpopular older brother, then the younger brother could very well get the throne. What Renly failed to consider was the "competent" factor, because while Renly was the more popular of the two, Stannis was far and away the more able of the two. Renly probably didn't realize that ruling a kingdom involved more than being a figurehead, and the Tyrells were undoubtedly planning to do the actual ruling while Renly strutted around being cheered.

[@EPYHDA1]

It is very indicative how Robert's brothers reacted to incest and looming succession crisis. Stannis left and was preparing for the inevitable war - he did not tell Robert, as Robert would never listen to him. Renly immediately reacted by trying to leverage Robert's marriage to Margery, to secure increase of his personal influence, considering his special relationship with Tyrels. Renly did not tell anything to Robert for reasons very different from those of Stannis

[@joshtedmanson6078]

Baratheon Brothers: Neapolitan icecream. Robert is chocolate, Stannis is vanilla and Renley is strawberry. Great podcast, big love from down under!

[@dylanjones2295]

Lol I like this one mate

[@erincvarol4888]

Renly would be a good king in the summer, but when the winter comes you would go for stannis all day everyday

[@bmirkhanzadeh]

The peach is not about their mutual love. It was about the fact that Stannis never learned to enjoy his life. George actually said that.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

yeah! i know that. not sure why i didn’t include that.

[@bmirkhanzadeh]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand poor Stannis 😢

[@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682]

The two aren't mutually exclusive in the very speech where Stannis alludes to peach he utters the words, " I loved him. I know that now."

[@parsa8223]

khoobi

[@keirangrant1607]

I loved Renly. I think he would have made a great king. He was, however, very wrong for assuming Stannis would bow to him. You guys are absolutely correct in that assessment. If you guys go and look at all the usurpers to all the thrones in the GoT world, you will see that many of them turned out to be great rulers after they consolidated power. Really was kind and cared about the realm. He was a peacock but he wasn't a fool. He was likely the best of the brothers, and in true GRRM fashion, he got clapped up before we ever saw him bloom

[@ryanarment5393]

I always found the Baratheon stag sigil appropriate. Stags are described as being beautiful, noble, and majestic by those who don't know better. They will tear into eachother viciously and lethally over dominance and territory. Which is what Renly and Stannis did after Robert's death. They disregarded all other enemies in order to destroy eachother.

[@mateberic8540]

This is first video on this channel I ever watched. Stannis is my favourite character from ASIOAF so I was really excited to watch this! Only thing missing is when you had discussion about relationship between Robert and Stannis, you should have mention incident from Stannis' wedding night, when Robert deflowered Delena Florent in Stannis and Selyse marriage bed. It was another slight from Robert's side, but Stannis wasn't so upset with that as Selyse was. Someone else would never forgive Robert for this. Also, it shows us how Stannis really had good heart. He recalled this when he met Edric Storm and said kid is not guilty of his brother's doing. Great video!

[@The_Darkest_Alley]

My first thught for the metaphor was Stannis is the Wooden Stool sturdy, strong, useful but often uncomfortable after a while....Renly is the silk pillow, soft, inviting, decorative, yet having little structure it often makes for a poor choice for most practical needs...and to go to the point of both of them together Visive the Silk Glove over an Iron gauntlet...we can say the Sturdy stool holds up and allows the Pillow to make long term sitting upon the chair actually practical...Great Podcast EP loving this format :D

[@jaredbrady5566]

The whole Renly thing was a Baelish thing. Renly, Baelish and the Tyrells were plotting to remove the Lannisters prior to Robert's death. They would reveal the incest then make Margery Robert's Queen. With a long Winter predicted, the Reach will gain power and influence.

[@TheLastSoundNL]

Stannis is definitely not brittle iron, at least not anymore, if he ever was. He wanted people to follow him because he was King but he doesn't believe that anymore. He listened to Davos, a former commoner. He is aware people follow their lords and puts that belief into practice, as he spared Mance and he has plans for Theon alive for Ironborn support when everybody wants him dead. Former enemies he uses as allies. He has a negative opinion of legitimized bastards, but treats with Jon just fine and elevated Davos to lordship, which is extremely rare. Plus he has 2 factions following him, kings men and queens men. Queens men follow him because of the red religion, a religion he doesn't believe in, but tolerates and uses to his advantage. Going against conventional standards using a sorceress and a different faith. In Winds, he is dealing with Karstark treachery, but he will probably strike a deal with the new house head like he did with Mance. Does that really sound like somebody who isn't flexible?

[@micah06v8]

I honestly think Renly was so full of himself that, in his mind, he expected to Stannis to view him as the "better choice" and abdicate. Now why the hell he thought THAT would ever in a million years just shows how narcissistic he really was. I agree he was out of his mind. I also think Robert was doomed to be miserable no matter which woman he ended up with. Lyanna didn't love him, and I don't think she would have changed her mind. I think she would have done her duty because that's what Ned would have expected of her. But I don't know that she would have ever grown to love him. Which I think is tragic.

[@D.Records]

Loving the regular uploads guys. Stannis is definitely my favourite of the 3 brothers, very interesting character

[@alexross1816]

Baratheon boys ranked as kings 1. Prime Bobby B 2. Prime Stannis the Mannis 3. Punished Stannis, a Mannis denied his throne 4. Sad, Drunk, Angry Robert 5. Theoretical Renly . . . ∞. Actual Renly

[@zacrusk5274]

I’m kinda harsh to this channel, criticizing a lot of their theories but in all honesty I love you guys. Thanks for not stopping asoiaf content and I really appreciate picking apart your videos! Thanks you two ❤️

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you !!

[@redjirachi1]

The three are a pretty much perfect representation of the Freudian trio. Robert the id, Stannis the super-ego and Renly the ego

[@hz.kemalpasa2997]

I don't quite grasp how Renly represents the Ego. Robert is the perfect ID though.

[@cerpintaxt4755]

"George can take as long as he wants" -- understatement of the century

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

lol

[@antoinethibierge9418]

Did you ever notice : Quaith warn Dany of the « perfumed senechal » and the name of the boat on which Tyrion goes to Meereen mean is something Tyrion calls « Stinky Steward » when he ask what the name means to Moqorro. Maybe there is a relation ? (I just read it, so I put a comment here since I never heard it on the channel)

[@keirangrant1607]

I would love to see a Prime Robert vs a Prime Khal Drogo...... man that would have been a great fight

[@KingOfWinter]

I don’t know if Robert would have liked Stannis even if he would’ve grew up with him and not have been fostered in the Erie with Ned. Ned was from another great house and that would’ve been the difference he probably saw Ned as more of an equal while he would’ve always saw Stannis as somebody beneath him probably.

[@sleekoduck]

Ned was more deceptive than Stannis. That subtle lack of authenticity probably made the difference and made Ned more relatable to Robbert.

[@PassivesAbseits]

This Robert loves Lyanna thing is way too romanticized. Let's face it: Robert heard a couple of cool stories from Lyanna's bigger brother, thought she was hot and wanted to bang her. And then mistook that idealization for true love. And he was so sure, that this was the love of his life, that he never really opened up to another person. Just ask yourself this: When did the 2 ever talk to each other? May be at the Tourney at Harrenhall, but it isn't mentioned, if they did. And since I am at it: We have no indication, that Lyanna felt anything for Robert. She probably would have hated him as much as Cersei did. Putting all the blame for the misery on Cersei, when she was forced to marry Robert, who then never gave a shit about her and just abused her, is just stupid.

[@EPYHDA1]

Renly decided to kill Stannis at least simultaneously with Stannis decision to shadow baby Renly: his remark about Loris presenting him with Stannis' sword did not leave any doubts about it. Of course, the presence of the great diplomat and peace-maker, Stoneheart-in-waiting, who did not think of anything better that to suggest that Stannis, with several great battles behind him, and Renly, with a huge army behind him, should be treated like children, assured that the decision the brothers made was totally predictable

[@Cheezwizzie]

"OURS IS THE FURY" I'm super excited for this one

[@isabellamego5321]

I really don't like stannis in clash, but in storm he gets his shit together and I really like when we see him at the wall interacting with the watch. I can't wait to see more of him in twow.

[@Coffeewiththegods]

I’m still at the proud wing part of the video so I’m not sure if this gets brought up, but another sentimental thing about Stannis is the fact he keeps patchface around because it was the last gift from his parents and his mother thought it would bring him joy.

[@sleekoduck]

Robbert uses a Warhammer, Stannis burns, Renly offers a peach. I know I got it straight from the books, but I think it sums up the brothers perfectly. Great podcast! PS: Renly is Egg without the rough squirehood with Dunk. We can see what a spoiled brat he would have turned out to be.

[@ivanbluecool]

Honestly went from liking renly to being meh in stannis and seeing Robert as a sad mess when I first started. Now I see renly is pathetic for making up things as he went as he kept wanting to look the part but was a failure as he causes so much problems . Robert as a sad broken man that the community ignores like ellia because he won and people hate winners. Robert never wanted this crown and went around saying he wanted to die or run away if not for joffery being a monster. Had his kids killed after his death but rhegar is somehow the tragic figure who left his wife and children to die as a loser. Robert was the better man Rhegar is the true monster who left his wife. Started a war and was a coward to the end and died like a failure. Stannis is amazing as he knows what to do but only issue is how he comes off with people being so stale but he is doing what he has to do to win and he bends a lot with Jon giving him advice and stannis Actually doing it and gaining an army.

[@striker8961]

They say Stannis will fight to the bitter end and then some but we’ve gotta give Robert some serious credit for enduring that miserable existence for that long because he was worried about what would happen if he left. What was basically his father even died and he immediately just went to get his only other friend in the world to come and help him.

[@tempertempernow]

You guys are single handedly (green handledly) making my whole life amazing with your work, thank you heroes.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

aww!! clever too!!

[@herzimhimmel]

Thank you, guys, great as always.

[@AwesomeMusicLady]

If we’re using doors as a metaphor Renly put a shiny silk banner in the doorway and Stannis has a thick iron gate in the doorway That’s a great metaphor for those two

[@GeekSensei]

I don’t really blame Renly for what he did. He seized an opportunity presented to him. A very rich guy said to him “Marry my daughter and Ill make you King”. Hard to say no 🤣

[@ivanbluecool]

A house divided cannot stand. Renly was so stupid he got Tyrion and cersie to get along.

[@Lemon-ju9vj]

@@ivanbluecool which was the most impossible thing ever ,Cersei and Tyrion agreeing 😂😂😂

[@ivanbluecool]

@@Lemon-ju9vj renky clearly did the impossible

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

Actually pretty easy if one is a human being with an ounce of character.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

He could have used his 'charizma' for a good cause. Authority and power are responsibility

[@girlnettles]

"Ned might have been a drunk if he was married to Cersei"

[@kylpyvene]

I love the Lyanna slander here bc so often she is treated like it was beautiful forbidden lovestory or some shit, but no, she was a selfish asshole and it feels good to hear her for once being treated as such

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

we made a “why rhaegar and lyanna suck” video if you want more !!

[@CosyDog3]

I don't believe Robert could have stuck to one bed regardless of if he married Lyanna or not he already had one bastard yes he was young but he was betrothed to Lyanna already so he technically wasn't single. That's really not that damning though since he was young but what doesn't sit well with me is that Robert was out making bastards while he believed Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar. His bastard daughter Bella is literally named after the battle of the bells which I believe she was conceived during. A man that sleeps around with whores while "the love of his life" is being "kidnapped and assaulted" just isn't a man I think can stick to one bed. That's why I think Ned's assessment is correct he never truly knew Lyanna he was just infatuated Lyanna is just the one that got away. Cersei is a huge bitch and no man would be able to stay sober in marriage to her but Robert would have probably made for any woman he married after the rebellion to love him back.

[@brodyday6509]

Nobody hates a Baratheon more than a Baratheon

[@codthunderful]

As for your question on why the brothers were not princes. It may have to do with the elevation of Robert and the nature of his usurption. The North and Riverlands were completely okay with Robb being King and raised no objection to Bran being Prince. However Robert is only King by force and the political aspect of his support comes from Ned not wanting the throne and Tywin not grasping the opportunity to keep Kings Landing after sacking it. Think of it this way, Tywin could have possibly declared himself King in the same way as Robert, however this would not be a smart idea. So, back to my previous example Robert did not have full support at the beginning of his reign like Robb. Robert had the Stormlands, strong alliances with Vale and North and Riverlands, later a marriage alliance with Tywin. The reach and Dorne would not have bent the knee if they could have helped it. In this sense Robert is King due to power, his claims of Targaryen blood are pointless as viserys and any still live. Stannis and Renly owe their line of succession rights due to power, and in a sense need this power to enforce their rights. Stannis has the best claim outside of Dany, but this right is delegitimized due to Robert's use of force makes legitimacy. Renly, although scummy makes a good point that he could claim power with his armies, as he also is jumping ahead of his rightful place just as Robert did. Prince was not given by an overwhelming consensus from every great lord, and thus it may lead to Robert not pushing for the adoption of a somewhat useless term. Now I would find it interesting if Shireen was considered a princess during Robert's rule as it would clarify if the book was being consistent. In a sense, Princes are created at the same time as Kings, so if they were not proclaimed princes early then they should not take the title. For example, where Aegon's sisters princesses? Yes they were Queens, but before they bore sons they were likely Aegon's heirs.

[@KingOfSciliy]

Robert was the walls of Storm's End; powerful and intimidating and yet when left to ruin would crumble into dust. Stannis is the gate; ever present yet unappreciated until times of dire straits. And when the foe comes crashing in, it will splinter and shake, but will hold until the bitter end. And Renly was the banners draped across the sides, the appearance is powerful and appealing to the eyes, and yet they are the first to ruin under stress and will be torn apart on the first day of war.

[@striker8961]

Being the youngest of three brothers who are very different I always love these dynamics, they make me think about my own life a lot.

[@ivanbluecool]

Here is my metaphor for the guys Renly is a flower. Pretty looking. Smells nice so people would be near him but easy to crush as a result. Stannis bridge. People step all over him and never thank him for anything yet he is the one who keeps everything going like in the war and such. Unappreciated for his hard work. Robert broken vase. Once perfect in looks and use but now looks awful and unstable as a result of years of abuse. Anyone else have ideas?

[@jean-luceyesofyoureyes5502]

Brilliant

[@ivanbluecool]

@@jean-luceyesofyoureyes5502 yeah renly was easy as I call him flower all the time. Stannis took some thinking as I needed something that is used but not appreciated enough Robert something great that turned ugly. You got any ideas too?

[@pugonadrone976]

For the items, here’s what I thought of for Renly, Stannis, and Robert: Renly: a scented candle, is enjoyable to be around, pleasant to the senses. Stannis: a lantern, very useful, can light the way on a dark path. Robert: a lighthouse, guides others with a beacon, needs to be maintained or will falter.

[@theoctagonjones]

This is probably my favorite episode of y’all’s

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thanks octie!!!!

[@lupusanthro5021]

Stannis started bending after the Blackwater.

[@larsongramckow7495]

Honestly, in an optimal situation I'd say any of the three could be good to great kings. Again Robert's problem was that most of his advisers were worthless or in the cases of Renly and stannis he couldn't stand them or as in the cases of Pycelle and Varys were plotting against him. In an optimal situation with a good council and a better queen Robert had the potential to be a great king. Renly would have been a good to great peace time king while stannis would have been a good to great war leader.

[@11101983omega]

Do you guys think Stannis will somehow mimic Napoleon and fail, in the winter.

[@tonysled6796]

we also dont see how Robert and Stannis interacted when Stannis was on the small council. I imagine Stannis became very suspicious of the Lannisters early on but tried to watch them operate rather than confront them knowing Robert had a tendency to ignore his advice. Jon Arryn seems to be more interested in directing Robert, Ned and probably Stannis and giving them guidance. At some point Stannis became his own man and left Robert to deal with his wife and the operations of the throne. it was this that lead to Roberts downfall in my opinion as rapidly as it occurred. It also gave Renly added confidence to be the brother that stuck by Roberts side until the end. I think he got a sense of purpose by being the brother who Robert liked..... but had Stannis stayed Renly would have had no choice but to act as a barrier between Roberts true line to the throne and the Lannisters if confronted with the truth. Stannis gives up on Robert and Renly had a choice to make Stannis probably already knew wouldnt be the one that sided with Stannis. to add insult to injury the Tyrells were the ones who made Stannis starve and attacked Storms End.....Renly's closeness with them should have been less public out of respect for Stannis and what he went through. Renly owes his life to both his older brothers but its not his fault he is mixed up because he lost his parents early. to have these two has parental figures is something that I think Stannis and Robert were not up to. maybe one of the few challenges they failed at...

[@tonysled6796]

thats where i think people including Stannis get Robert wrong. giving Storms End to Renly is like something he wanted to give a brother who had no parents....a permanent home. Stannis is bitter about it but i think given time he will understand Renly never even knew his parents and that was a gift Robert even as king could not give him....so the best he could do was give him their ancestral home forever......out of respect for Renlys line not being a forgotten one but one of importance....Robert had compassion that people dont talk about as being truer than true and fairer than fair. blinded by his own gift

[@alsharpe7213]

4 hours late :( Thank you so much for taking the time and making this channel!! You guys are awesome sausage!!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you !

[@wolfemaclean5449]

Reading AFFC again Stannis regretted killing Renley. The peach!!!!

[@tonysled6796]

and i think he will make peace with Brienne somehow and aid her if they ever do meet. Renly gave him no choice.

[@vipersb1]

I really hope HBO does a 'Robert's Rebellion' spin-off show. I'd prefer to see that over the 'House of the Dragon' spin-off we're getting.

[@allinix7]

I personally hope they will not ! There is nothing very interesting about Robert's Rebellion, like, we already know what happened. Nothing new and the same characters. I think it would break the images of Rhaegar (mysterious, we don't really know him) and Aerys (terrifying) too, and I'm not fan of this idea. It would be boring for me. Just my opinion ^^ (English is not my first language)

[@johnlanouette8611]

I'm pretty sure its because their Father wasn't a king. I know Bran was called a Prince, but he was Robb's Heir.

[@rajond7881]

The reason why Stannis and Renly aren't referred to as princes is because that isn't how royalty works. It's only that way when one is born into royal blood (as with Tommen and Marcella which is why they're called prince and princess). Since Robert took the throne Stannis and Renly aren't considered princes.

[@Wolfspane]

Just food for thought, but did Lyanna have resentment for her older brother Brandon as well? She complained about Robert's behavior in his youth, but Brandon acted in a similar manner bedding and whoring throughout the North. It's even said that he may even sired some bastards despite being betrothed to Catelyn Tully. So did she take some of Brandon's behavior/ vices and imprinted them onto Robert, creating a negative image of him?

[@gfilmer7150]

That's fascinating.

[@frankySinn]

Perhaps Robert suspected Jof was not his son, so Stanis was the rightful heir at Dragonstone?

[@rhaenyralikesyoutube6289]

Renly would irritate me to no end, but book 3 Stannis would be cool to hang around. I found Stannis's constant whiny attitude in book 2 annoying, but I feel kind of bad for him a bit because his wife was such a nagging harridan. Younger Robert would be a fun guy to hang with, but by the time we meet him in book 1, he's kind of a low key Henry 8th figure who is drinking/eating/whoring himself into an early grave. Stannis's snarky humor is hilarious to me at times, because I just love that brand of humor, but even so, he could have benefited from some therapy to deal with his inner family dysfunctional issues.

[@DeathstroketheTerminator]

I thought they weren't called princes because Robert was king by conquest but to be a prince you need to be born the son of a king. So that's why Stannis and Loras aren't known as princes as they had no such inherited title from their father, not even their lord titles were hereditary since neither were his firstborn son.

[@Madrid1234apa]

Speaking to historic background for these characters. The clearest is Robert being a fictional allusion to Henry VIII. A good looking athletic king who becomes obese later in life. Stannis is the bright military leader. A warrior king. My best choice for him would be Edward I . He was known as Lomgshanks and The Hammer of the Scots. Renly reminds me of Edward II . Edward had many male favorites and wasn’t the warrior his father was. When catelyn visits renlys camp she remarked that these young men are better at playing at war than actually fighting

[@Richard_Nickerson]

3:00 Renly and Stannis are VERY much stereotypical youngest and middle children respectively.

[@CommonSenseWarrior37]

Renly was master of law. Great vid!

[@loozziee]

Brilliant! I've been waiting patiently for another podcast.

[@visenyatargaryen2471]

“Jon Arryn, that freak” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@thisguy8106]

"Or Jon Arryn, that freak.." Muh Qween. 🤣🤣🤣 I could literally hear the eye roll after "that freak" 😆🤣😂

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

awww

[@dark_fire_ice]

My word association with the siblings would be, by age; Tarnished, Tempered, and Plated. Also have you noticed that the three Baratheon brother are a mirror to the three Stark brothers; Brandon/Robert, Neddard/Stannis, Benjen/Remly

[@jacobitebhoy6985]

Does anyone else feel like the Baratheon brothers are direct analogues for the Stark brothers? Robert = Brandon Stannis = Ned Renly = Benjen

[@redjirachi1]

I wonder if that played into Robert getting along so well with Ned

[@YashRaj-vy6pb]

No stark brothers (Ned and benjen) shared a very good bond they would have not killed each other for a fucking throne On the other hand baratheon brother seemed power hungry . Renly tried to snatch away his brother's right .Though Stannis faithfully followed Robert but at last he killed renly. I don't think Ned and benjen would have done something like this

[@metalsucks9]

@@YashRaj-vy6pbned banished benjen to the wall, and there is no evidence of them having a good relationship.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

​@@metalsucks9 where are you getting the idea benjen was banished?

[@bloodfalconfantastic4445]

I see Renly as a fancy espresso machine, and Stannis as a 20$ coffee maker from a department store. That espresso machine looks nice and can make a tasty little shot of caffeine, but it's going to break and it'll be too much work to maintain. The 20$ coffee maker will make a shit cup of bitter coffee without the right beans, but it'll sit in your kitchen, continuing to work untill the day you die.

[@carmensavu5122]

Robert is getting a Starbucks on your way to work.

[@Theodosius_fan]

Robert is the lion, stannis the buffalo and renly the snake

[@gmontezuma6770]

Excellent podcast as always. I may be wrong, but I believe that Renly and Stannis were not called Prince, because they were not sons of a king. A prince is the son of a king, whether or not he is first in line for the crown.

[@DjangoFatt]

House Baratheon is my favorite house and Stannis is my favorite of the brothers 🦌❤🔥

[@zombize23]

It's interesting that stanis is described as iron and brittle when iron is actually far more malleable than steel, it just doesn't usually go back to its original shape the way that steel does

[@ghostjager8190]

To quote Warhammer 40k Stannis reminds me of this "From Iron, cometh Strength. From Strength, cometh Will. From Will, cometh Faith. From Faith, cometh Honour".

[@Sirkenp99]

if your father was the king, then you are a prince. that's why most brothers of kings are also princes. but since Steffon Baratheon was not a king, Stannis and Renly are not princes

[@trethornton1709]

Renly would have been king eventually if he sided with Stannis. With no male heirs and Selyse unable to give him one 🙃

[@carmensavu5122]

exactly!

[@AwakeAtTheWheel]

Great topic. Great take!

[@astrinymris9953]

4:25 Okay, this is something that annoys me. Is Cersei objectively heinous? Yes. (I won't go into how much it annoys me the GRRM chose to write her as the ax-crazy personification of all evil rather than like all other characters having a mix of good and bad traits.) But Robert is still responsible for his own choices. He choose to make his wedding night awful for Cersei to punish her for not being Lyanna. He choose to *openly* chase any woman who caught his eye, rather than managing his infidelity discreetly enough that people could pretend it wasn't going on. He chose to physically abuse Cersei. And he chose not to override her about killing Lady. Yes, I know he might have been a better husband to Lyanna if he'd gotten her. But he also might have done the same things to Lyanna as soon as she fell short of his idealized image of her, especially once he discovered that Lyanna had fled with Rhaegar willingly to escape marrying him. Remember, it's canon that he didn't know her as a person, as Ned told him outright. Another point: There's no such thing as love at first sight. There's sexual attraction at first sight. There's romantic attraction at first sight. But you have to actually know who someone to love them. I concede that in some cases the mutual romantic-attraction-at-first-sight may pay off and the couple winds up actually falling in love, but not always, especially if the romantic attraction is only on one side. Just sayin', not hatin'.

[@josephradley3160]

Robert being the true steel also extends to how he rusts when he isn't looked after. The one time Cat was right. They should have been hammering out terms of alliance at Storms End. The larger part of Renlys host was from the Reach. Did they really look out for Renly? Seems like the servants did it all. Alyn Velaryon. Aka Oakenfist. Addam Velaryon died at Tumbleton. Goshawks don't soar. They live and hunt below the treetops. There was nothing to be surprised about there.

[@ogdenatwood161]

I was not able to make it to the last live stream but while listening to is after I had an idea. Could one of the details that GRRM told D&D was that Aegon was born at the Tower of Joy. Because it could make a bit more sense than Jon being named Aegon

[@Dglenn2185]

I always thought all 3 were gay. Renly out and flamboyant. Robert overcompensates. And Stannis shut himself down emotionally and lives a mostly sexless life

[@made-line7627]

Hahaha yes!

[@dktro8831]

this might be a silly question, but what do you think Robert would have done about Mya Stone his oldest Bastered - the child with anohter woman that Lyanna was whining about? LIke do you think he would have sent her to live with Stannis or Renly had everything worked out in the end. Like in a perfect world do you think Robert would have made sure that Mya would have been taken care of, cause she probably would have been one of his few if only Bastered child.

[@made-line7627]

I think he would have taken care of her in that way, for sure

[@HelenWA]

@@made-line7627 except for the fact that he didn't. He had the chance and never contacted her ever again and she grew up with her mother. He never paid to take care of any of his kids. Edric was only fostered due to his mother's side being noble and Varys interceding.

[@christophertracy4377]

Well, I guess I'm holding out until Winds because I need 2 see how Stannis will die. I give him this much, he went past the Wall and beat the Wildlings.

[@bradp5848]

My Two Cents on why Stannis and Renly were not called Princes stems from the nature of Robert's crowning via the war torn Coup. Robert was crowned by his deeds and held it the first few years with the silent threat of a similar fate if anyone steps out of line. Also the Lannister marriage and backing of their wealth legitimized Robert in social, civil, and courtly ways desperately lacking from the Baratheon heritage previously and crowning Stannis and Renly as Princes would muddy the waters in a way that Tywin would have to react to. The Lannister's schemed, twisted, and even perverted the crown during a peaceful and uncontested reign, imagine the havoc even just taking that up a notch or two with a pair of In-Law Stag Princes would have caused, even just as an honorific title. Lets be real Stannis would have scorned the title insulting his nephews and niece as a result. While Renly... hitting puberty as a Prince..good grief... I'm picturing something along the lines of a crushed velvet Cowardly Lion. An Arbor Red or two away from an obnoxious musical number. "If I were King of the Forrrrrrrrest, Not Queen, Not Prince, Not... Duke."

[@dantemorgenstern]

Do you guys think part of the reason Robert never made Joffery Prince of Dragonstone is that he didn't want Joffery to be his heir, at least not without having a strong regent over him to guide him at first? He does discuss with Ned how he would leave the throne if it wouldn't be for Joffery and Cersei taking the throne if he did. Though, he should have still explained his reasoning to Stannis as you pointed out. I'd also like to thank you for releasing these podcast, I'm currently on disability leave and can't sub to patreon so it's great to see these videos. I don't know if you even read all comments and if you do then you may have a negative opinion of me since when I do comment it is to play devil's advocate to something mentioned, but I'm actually a huge fan of your theories, and even when I disagree, I find the line of reasoning you two take to be solid and worth debate. Despite the backlash it gets, I do hope N+A=J, the work you two have put into the timeline and mysteries surrounding that is honestly far more interesting than R+L=J. I also appreciate the details you take in on combat significance, such as with "Rattlebones vs Jon" and the community you have built, as even when I make a comment disagreeing, it is usually thumbed up and not downthumbed into oblivion. Keep up the great work and I hope to be able to make a live stream soon!

[@lastbaratheon8043]

As soon as I saw this vid I immediately thought of Donnel Noye's quote from ACOK .👌🏾 Stannis is my favourite of the Baratheon trio ; my favourite character in the whole show as a matter of fact. I prefer show Stannis, slightly over Stannis in the books, he seems way more grumpy.

[@AkodoGarou]

This is the situation is because they came to power through a war of succession/rebellion. Unless the new King or Queen, in this case, Robert, named them to his royal family, as in the Crowned Stag, they would be Princes. However, he did not, thus Lord of Storm's End and Lord of Dragonstone. Additionally, when you mentioned the King of France, Philip, they were both of the royal house from birth. It's a really weird semantic thing when it comes to who is called what. I agree with your thoughts on Dragonstone, it should have been given to Joffrey as Prince of Dragonstone, and heir to the Iron Throne, Stannis to Storm's End as is his birthright.

[@kristinewatson3702]

I feel like the birth order of eldest, middle child, and baby really apply with these three. Stanis in particular has many good qualities that get ignored, Robert is held as the example whether he deserves it or not and Renley is forgiven all his sins because he's the baby.

[@BT12344]

I thought they weren’t princes because Bobby B took the throne by right on conquest, whereas usually the brothers of the King are princes because their parents are King and Queen. I believe when Prince Phillip first married Liz II was just HRH Phillip, later Liz chose to give him the princely title to earn him more respect around the court but she very much didn’t have too - Renly was cocky anyway, Bobby B disliked Stannis, no reason why Bobby B would want to inflate Renly’s ego more or give Stan is that level of respect

[@nyz7971]

I agree that Renly would have made the best king which is why on my first read I really thought he should have been king due to merit. But after understanding the feudal system better, I get why Stannis was upset at the betrayal and did what he did. Tragic nonetheless, all three of the brothers, starting from when they witnessed their parents' ship go down.