Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | What Happened at the Tower of Joy? | Podcast

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Hey everyone the images I referred to in this podcast are now posted on our Community Page, Facebook, and Twitter!! Check them out and let us know your thoughts!!!

[@sleekoduck]

Will check it out now that I found your Twitter account. 👍

[@kellylausman259]

Thank you for all your amazing research! ❤️❤️❤️

[@RevealTheStyle]

Guys no pictures in the video! 😢 Edit: later saw post wit them in Community tab 👍🏻

[@EverteFarnell]

I don’t see it with Tormund, but for sure with the other two.

[@WhiteSargent]

Holy crap that’s compelling

[@EPYHDA1]

"Wraiths with the horses made of mist" has a definite Nazgul flavour to it....

[@kyleboerner]

I wonder if the three “and” are actually separating three memories… leanna in winterfell, ashara at the tower of joy, and a third one with the kingsguard

[@SantomPh]

it's not likely as he did return Dawn to Starfall, so he did meet Arthur Dayne.

[@shannond7437]

Lol why not Lyanna? Definitely 3 perspectives

[@allyriastark3508]

It could be Lyanna at Winterfell, Ashara at Starfall, and Elia with KL 🤔

[@maryamalwali765]

@@allyriastark3508 we dont know any thing about ned's mother so she could be the 3rd

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

I was thinking the same

[@justincurll1110]

According to the RLJ crowd, Dany grew up in a greenhouse, swords are ideal masonry tools, and newborns are hardy travellers. And they make fun of us...

[@chyawanprash]

I didn't get the sword bit...

[@asoiaffreak4255]

@@chyawanprash all they would have had to tear a tower down were their swords it doesn't make sense that you can tear down a stone tower with swords

[@jonstark153]

Don't forget the bravosi lemon tree

[@chyawanprash]

@@asoiaffreak4255 there's a theory that they used wildfire. We see Cersei destroy the TotH with wildfire easily, and also the ToJ being frequently visited by a Targaryen seems like a place storing some wildfire.

[@asoiaffreak4255]

@@chyawanprash if they used wild fire how were there stones enough left to build cairns with

[@ivanbluecool]

Honestly the whole journey is full of inconsistencies when placed from lyanna being kidnapped to the way Ned gives back the sword and red stallion yet Barbary never brings up Ned having a baby as wylla and howlands wife were the wet nurses in the tower. The community ignores this fact so much I don't know how same with George's own words like when Jon was born. Ned can't beat Arthur and Jon has shown he can't be half hand who is probably whent so the power levels would not work even with trickery that Arthur would lose. I'm excited to see George pull the rug out of us and show us what really happened to shock the community as the book is not over and what the show did was horrible.

[@icarus0206]

Hear hear. The show is horrible

[@ivanbluecool]

@@icarus0206 yeah and they go and they choose to not listen to George when he makes calls which shows exactly why he calls the show fan fiction directly Can't wait to see the books have many major twists that will make show only people lose it.

[@jacobenke7936]

@@ivanbluecool show people are not expecting to see a Ctulhu level demigod in Oldtown.

[@michellesims7282]

I may be the only one who thinks this but when I first read game of thrones years ago, I alway thought that Jon was Ned and Ashara Son and Daenerys was Lyanna and Rhaegar child. I felt like the first book gave a lot of clues to this. Ned always thinking about the promise he mad to his sister would come up a lot when Robert was trying to assassinate her. And this scene is one that I though supports this because the timeline being not what everyone assumes it is.

[@starking2162]

I think Young Grif is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s kid, and John Connington just lied to him about who his mom was/his age, cause Viserys has no good reason to lie about his mom dying giving birth to Dany on Dragonstone, and never doubts that she’s his sister

[@AwakeAtTheWheel]

Your theory about the 3 Kingsguard being alive makes so much sense that I have just completely incorporated it into my head canon.

[@Cbjames715]

This is my favorite theory of yours. People dismiss it so quick... But holds more weight than N+A=J, and it would add so much more to Jon's storyline..

[@Lightstar449]

I agree, it's a much more interesting theory

[@shannond7437]

I personally just have never seen what Ned plus Ashara equals a John would bring to the story. I still think Ashara plus Aerys equals Dany would be much more interesting and I am holding on my thin tinfoil hat! 😹

[@brandon8667]

While I could be interested. We're told that Jon's mom could be Ashara in GoT. So she's most likely not his mother.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

My head cannon is when the fight started Gerold and Osweld stepped back and took bets on how long it'd take Arthur to defeat or kill Ned and his men. And Arthur proceeded to absolutely wreck Ned and all of his guys without even breaking a sweat. Like at one point he looks at Ned who is on the ground a little cross eyed from being hit in the face with the pommel of Dawn. "How the hell did you survive against Barristan the Bold if you fight this poorly." Yes I know Ned is competent but he isn't in the top 10 of Fighters in Westerors in either the start of the books or at that point. But let me put it like this the way Arthur is talked about as the only man who can Rival Barristan the Bold and what we saw Barristan do with a stick. Leads me to believe that he by himself outnumbered Ned and his crew. I imagine it'd take like 11 dudes to kill him. 6 to die rushing him, 4 to hold his limbs and the last dude to stab him in the gap of his armor.

[@JungleLeeLewis]

Fun Fact.. Medieval Towers were Extremely Easy to defend. The Passage winds to the Right, making a Right Handed Fighters Sword Useless. As you'll hit Wall. The Defenders with High Ground have FULL use of a Right Hand Strike since it's open and downward. So the King's Guard could have EASILY Defended the Tower.. Also in the beginning of the Recount of the Dream. Ned remembers the Tower as "Long Fallen".. What if the Tower wasn't standing when Ned got there? It was long fallen even BEFORE Ned got there.. No Tower to tear down. At least a Ring Base is easier to remove..

[@reconstructo]

I think Ned, when awake, could remember the faces of those companions of his young adulthood. His inability to see them in the fever dream is likely meaningful.

[@Jockeylotforfun]

This was amazing, thank you! The scene at the tower of joy more resembles "a duel of honor" where the participants agree to meet at a time and place, and a battle to defend their honor.

[@allyriastark3508]

There should be a connection between dreams of Ned, Cersei, and Varamyr. They all remember important events but like GRRM warned with Ned's dream, we also have Cersei thinking the real event and dream is different. And the repeated threes is interesting, they made me think of Daenerys, she is child of three, has three fires, rides, and betrayals 🤔 if you are curious if "dreaming an old dream" was used before, we have Dunk dreaming his journey to the Dorne with Egg, where his horse died, and he even burried the horse, he wakes up says "no, the event was different than my dream"

[@thehouseofdragon5226]

I'll say, you guys brighten my day, with every new video/podcast/or theory, you guys make me happier than ever you are my favorite channel of asoaif, you make the wait for Winds not so bad, I wish you both the best, you are greats, this is the best chanel of asoaf. Sorry for not being able to send any feedback or super chat, but I hope to demonstrate my cart for you in this message. Thank you.

[@shannond7437]

See I think the memory of the kings guard being burned into his brain means something bad happened involving guilt with them. Even today, I can recall things as a child that I did wrong or were bad WAY better than most other memories.

[@nononono3421]

Oh what if Bran will skinchange Ned, kill all his buddies except Howland, so as to keep the secret of what would come after? Bran might do this again when they fight Arthur, or after. This might explain Ned's confused memories; he wasn't himself in those moments.

[@Zach-sx8cm]

i thought of something interesting that ties the "kingsguard north of the wall" theory together. Raeghar was huge into prophecy, specifically azor ahai. he had decided his son was the prince that was promised and not himself (and i'm sure thats a large part why he had the kingsguard guarding baby Jon Snow). Howland Reed, I myself assume, would have been a person who has seen into the weirdwood net and been able to see future events or at least circumstances. I think he suggested to the kingsguard that the best way to protect prince Raeghar's child AND assist in fulfilling his prophetic wishes would be to give the child to Ned for safe keeping and have the kingsguard travel north to help Jon when the time came for another long night to fall. I find this to be a very fulfilling and poetic twist to the story that gives awesome context to previous events and payoff for the tower of joy mystery. It even puts greater emphasis on the importance of Jon's role as Lightbringer. This was such amazing info!!!

[@joaquincarrascosa91]

The fact that GRRM mentions "in the dream as it had been in life" a couple of times is quite telling that this dream is probably not that accurate and that there is more to the events at the Tower of Joy

[@jimboslice6367]

George uses those same words for Cersei and maggy the frog which all happened the way she remembered

[@henryp9671]

@@jimboslice6367 I mean did it do we have anyone else who witnessed that event and even if it did she is the one responsible for at least a few of those things coming true like she didn’t have to push her friend down a well and she probably could’ve tried for more kids if she really wanted to

[@jimboslice6367]

@@henryp9671 that’s ridiculous. Stop it. Maggy nailed roberts bastards

[@henryp9671]

@@jimboslice6367 or Cirsea Smith’s remembering the prophecy this is Cirsea we’re talking about. I just feel like if George didn’t it to be at least a little up to interpretation he would’ve had Circe’s friend just trip instead of her pushing her friend right isn’t that a weird detail to just add for no reason maybe it’s just me

[@jimboslice6367]

@@henryp9671 it’s just you. Maggy the frog happened

[@josephjanisch5396]

Good point on the big brother wanting to kick Neds ass for marrying Caitlin. On the fight, if it’s a fever dream, the fight probably happened, but not the way it was described at all.

[@southernsunshine1149]

What I love about y’all is your critically thinking abilities! You don’t care what everyone else thinks & instead do your own research & studying & come to your own conclusion. Very refreshing! Love y’all! Merry Christmas!

[@D.Records]

I tend to believe there is alot more to this then we're told and Neds fever dream definitely cant be taken as factual. I love how you guys expand these interesting topics

[@lastpenny849]

I can't help but still think that they had a parlay, realised to keep the secret, everyone had to die. So only Harland Reed and Ned and the 3 Kingsguard survived. The Kingsguard went to the Wall/Beyond the Wall/Bear Island, possibly even Bravos and becoming a Faceless man.. Mance Rayder (Dayne is in the name) is Arthur, (Singing a Dornishmans Wife when John entered the tent, Two handed Sword dual with John.. That's Dayne. Quorin Halfhand is Whent... Went to the wall as an honarable man..became the link between the North and the Wildlings imo.. Hightower is Thormund Giantsbane..he's always switching between educated and pirate style rambling, to "stay in character", he can also write, apparently only about how big his "member" is, but he knows what Maesters Ink and a Goosequill is..a Wildling? Yeah. nah. Hightower also has an affair with the "She Bear" possibly fathering a few daughters there. So the secluded Bear Island is the Ideal meeting spot for the 3 men. I could also mention the Order of the Gardener Kings of which all 3 are most probably members, as well as Ned, the Manderleys, and a bunch of other ancient families.. No question that loyalty to one over-rides anything else. Dayne could have killed all of them on his own. Ned was no great swordsman, Dayne was the best ever.

[@SantomPh]

thing is those are inconsistent with their characters. Ned would never kill Lord Dustin and the other men. Mance is definitely a Northerner and not a knight. he is a bard so he knows that song. Whent's house is completely gone, plus his family's bat is absent from the shields Jon sees in the hall of the Watch. The White Bull is a high nobleman of Oldtown, Thormund is a freeman noble who likes to mock 'southerners'.

[@lastpenny849]

@@SantomPh Doesn't mean that Arthur wouldn't, to protect the Princes son/daughter, knowing the fate if it were revealed.

[@RevealTheStyle]

I have always liked Robert’s (In Deep Geek) theory about Tower of Joy and The Kingsgard theories, they are very smart. HOWEVER your podcast Why Ned Is NOT Stupid convinced me to think again… and the art is kind of an evidence as well 😄 You guys and Robert are one of the few giants in a sense of great theories. I’m so ready for the next George’s book to learn more! 🥺

[@marcosdangier3534]

"King's Guard does not flee ... then or now". ... they are guarding the King's most important asset

[@petebondurant58]

Their king was Aerys, and after Rhaegar's death...Aegon, whom they could not have known at that time was dead, or even if they did know, Viserys would be the heir, not a natural born son of Rhaegar by Lyanna.

[@dannyfinnz8385]

My question is, if there wasn't a battle and just a meeting, then how did all of Ned's men die?

[@SantomPh]

there was a battle. There's no way Dayne would give up his sword, and was a close friend to Rheagar. Ned would never want Lord Dustin, Ethan Glover and the others to die.

[@tyrionlannister1628]

I ranted with a friend last night for about 3 hours why the finale sucked… Mainly because 0 attempt was made at a Donnie Darko/Back to the Future reveal, Brann had so much potential that was hinted at throughout the show yet, when that last episode aired none of it was brought to fruition… Out of everything I talked about the easiest thing they could have done right before the last episode ended is showing when Brann was under the tree learning how to warg etc, he inadvertently caused King Aerys II, who was a kind and just king, who went mad overnight was actually told by Brann to “Burn Them All” Just like he caused the Hodor incident. That’s it, if they would have added that, 100% of the hate would have been directed at fan theories etc…. I also thought a big reveal we were going to see was Brann is the Nightking, different consciousness of course, but he went back in time to try and stop it all from happening and was captured and turned into the night king, long before he was ever born… Brann the Builder? So much was left unfinished it hurt… Look at my name and tell me I didn’t love the show, still do but good god they dropped the ball….

[@sophiawilson8696]

They try explain Bran training or transfer of power was interrupt by the attack of the White Walkers.

[@gholamdapantaloonsniffer8218]

@@sophiawilson8696 which is the absolute last thing we see in the books, as the wights are standing outside bloodravens cave!!

[@Porifera-Jaymen]

Just started reading this month. A couple chapters prior in Daenerys 4, bloodriders are described: "...when the khal died, his bloodriders died with him... If the khal died at the hands of some enemy, they lived only long enough to avenge him..." Throughout D4 she thinks about Kingsgard vs Bloodriders too. Lookin' forward to y'all covering chapter by chapter.

[@sleekoduck]

Interesting that the three kingsguard members were from First Men families and probably also followed the old gods like Ned. 🤔

[@TheCosplayInsanity]

Hightowers do have First Men blood but Oldtown has the Starry Sept, which rivals The Great Sept of Baelor. Their blood, I agree. Religion, tiny bit iffy on that one. Out of Harrenhal, Starfall, and Oldtown, only Harrenhal has weirwood trees that we know of so far. Interesting point there though, Sleekoduck. You've got me wondering.

[@ashleyofnaath]

What a brilliant topic. Admittedly my opinion on the TOJ is fluid, so take it w/a grain of salt. Given that it's said the Kingsguard "awaited" Ned's arrival, given that they were dressed flamboyantly rather than discreetly, and given that the Kingsguard weren't technically "defending" the tower when Ned got there, is it possible that they never intended to defend it from HIM? The TOJ was inspired by the Joyous Guard from Arthurian legend, and according to said legend Lancelot rescued Guinevere and brought her there to save her from a treason-related death sentence imposed upon her by Arthur. This assumes facts not in evidence but maybe Aerys found out Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree, sent gold cloaks to scour the Riverlands for her and bring her back to King's Landing (think Gendry in AGOT) to answer for her "treason", Rhaegar's group thwarted them and saved Lyanna, then took her to the TOJ for her own protection- from Aerys. Like Lancelot did w/Guinevere to save her from King Arthur. So, later on after the war when the three Kingsguard got word that it was Ned coming south and not Aerys, they didn't have to be "on guard" and subsequently donned their formal attire to draw Ned to them. Again, this is purely conjecture but I could see Varys somehow learning Lyanna was the KOTLT and disclosing that news to Aerys in a sinister way to increase his paranoia. Something like "I've learned the mystery knight at Harrenhal was Lyanna Stark. You may recall after the Stark girl was crowned, your own master of laws Lord Staunton suggested she and your son orchestrated the stunt as a means of endearing her father to Rhaegar's cause. This confirms it." Also, we know Aerys considered the KOTLT as a traitor whose actions were "perfidy" he wanted exposed. So were he to learn the mystery knight's identity, I could see him ordering the knight's capture to put him/her on trial and execute the person for all to see as he did w/Brandon and Rickard. Wouldn't it be something if Aerys's actions w/them was in part to do w/his belief that Lyanna was the KOTLT?

[@Cheezwizzie]

I think that the imagery of the blue eyes could be as you said a reminder. Like no matter how hard it is to keep this enormous secret from everyone you love you know it's necessary because winter is coming

[@AnotherGuyProductions]

I mean honestly the fight might've happened because Ned wanted to take lyanna and her son home and the kings guard wouldn't let him.... Seems like the least far fetched version of events.

[@sophiawilson8696]

Daughter!

[@meredithparvin5611]

Thanks for expounding on this. I know you have brought this topic up a lot in livestreams.

[@presleybaldwin3756]

Thanks for another amazing video, I've always really enjoy your Channel. It's always a nice treat to check my notifications and see a video from the two of you.

[@jacobitebhoy6985]

I think that it is going to be the case that each of the 3 kings guard are going to die to preserve the life of Jon Oswell/Qhoran already has If the glamouring is correct then Gerold/Tormund has too So that only leaves Arthur/Mance to sacrfice himself for Jon It is as if there's a form of blood debt to Ned's son, caused by Ned agreeing to them faking their deaths and so allowing them a 2nd life of sorts.

[@sophiawilson8696]

It Dany not Jon!

[@jacobitebhoy6985]

@@sophiawilson8696 What do you mean?

[@EPYHDA1]

One of the reasons to get out of the tower would be to make sure that none of the seven wo arrived there had a chance to go back and show the way to others, particularly Robert

[@PassivesAbseits]

Just a random thought: Isn't it possible, that the Children of the Forest or Bloodraven keep sending this dream again and again to Ned and Cersei? Just to drive them into madness? We know, that they can do it. And when we hear about dreams in ASoIaF, we should always ask: Who send them?

[@corysegura1812]

Id suggest it wasnt the first visit to Tower for Ned that week and that Ned/Reed won dishonorably so it would be shameful to see each other.

[@kellylausman259]

Why does the beginning of that passage say "a tower long fallen" if Ned pulled it down?

[@SantomPh]

it's been a long time from the 'current' era since the incident occurred.

[@kellylausman259]

@@SantomPh - hmmm, possibly...

[@ulamogtheinfinitegyre4279]

i said you were writing a better book than grrm... like 2 years ago. i don't want the book to be like that. now idgaf about anybody but littlefinger. the whole reason why i read the books was because of this channel.

[@nichoalsmith7712]

3 is often used in literature: 3 pigs, 3 bears, etc. Three allows for variation in situations to show that the prior choices made were flawed. For instances, the first 2 pigs in "The Three Little Pigs" both lose their houses and it is only the choice of bricks by the last pig that shows a certain way of building is correct (That isn't the only way to look at it but for simplicity that's all I will comment on). Also, we categorizes things in three for symbolism; morning, day, and night; sun, earth, moon; birth, life, and death; Maiden, Mother, and Crone (Martin may mention these but they are not created by him and have a function outside of his story). Also, some mythological figures come in groups of three such as- Clotho (spinner of the thread), Lachesis (the dispenser), and Atropos (the one who cuts it). And the also Norns are three figures (I had to google their names but they are Urd, Verdandi and Skuld) also come in three. The moon in literature can break down into three figures depending on the writer; Hecate, Selene, Phobe, etc. can all be referenced as different phases or aspects of the moon. Christianity puts an emphasis on 3 with the Trinity; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, in a series that uses so much mythos from European and Western setting it really isn't surprising that it shows up. That said it might not mean anything because it is so often something we do without putting much thought into it. The only place I would think it might have significance in the 3 showing up is the 7 men against 3 of the kings guard because those reflect actual symbolic numbers from Martin's story. Seven for the Faith of the Seven and 3 for the Targaryen knights. The other dreams might or might not mean anything, but I would dismiss them as necessarily all being connected to the same thing unless they become uncanny like Bran invading Jon's dream.

[@theavocado6061]

Love your guy’s analysis. What I want to know is where the hell is Howland Reed? He’s supposed to be one of Ned’s best friends and he’s been awol for 5 books.

[@allyriastark3508]

I am sure Ned and Howland had a break up like Ned and Robert did after sack of KL, there is no instance of Howland doing something for Ned and his family in the recent events.

[@avg18]

You guys blow my mind every time! I love that we still find these little new nuggets of info everytime we look back into the text.

[@Armaniche]

If GRRM had to clarify "as they had been in life" several times makes me think that other parts of the dream were not.

[@ssa3101]

Tourney of harrenhall, fire at summerhall and the tower of joy. The trilogy of mysteries before the current events of the books.

[@lxfj2128]

If young griff isn’t ilyrio and seras child, then why is he so interested in young griff. Why did he bring up the fact that the blackfyre continues through the female line and why would he know that. Why does he have a treasure chest of clothes that is the size of a young boy. Why was he so upset that he couldn’t meet griff off before he left for Westeros . Why does his dead lover have targeyrean features. Why would he bankroll the whole operation he should have no attachment if young griff isn’t his child. If young griff isn’t ilyrio child I have no clue why ilyrio and Varys are helping him so much. Why does he have a depth of affection if it’s not connected to sera and young griff being his son. Why does he want young griff on the throne. Ilyrio is richer then even the lannisters had so much money he doesn’t care about Westeros so why does he want young griff on the throne unless it’s his and seras child. Can anyone explain this to me

[@jacobenke7936]

I'm with you on this one.

[@someoneelse5923]

Master Chief and Cortana debating the Tower of Joy was something I never thought I needed

[@AwesomeMusicLady]

I love Dave’s explanation for why the three things are worded. George is definitely keeping track of those little personality differences

[@joemullany7621]

I think people are missing another critical fact - Ned did not return Lord Dustin's bones! This was such a grievous slight that Lady Dustin hated Ned for it, and note that Ned DID return the prized horse. So not bringing bones with the horse would only make sense if Dustin was still alive. The only negative to this point of mine is that Ned stated that only he and Howland Reed left alive...but chalk that off to fever dream in the same way that the 3 kingsguards left there alive?

[@jacobenke7936]

His companions were important men, lords and sons of lords. Did they all agree to join the Watch? I don't find that likely. Ethan Glover would have been a broken man, having spent the war in a black cell. Ned seems to owe some kind of debt to the Cassells. Dustin's death is a key point, as is Ned not forcing a change of leadership in Barrowton. Barbrey was a Ryswell, so without a child she had no claim to Barrowton. Surely there was a child somewhere with some degree of Dustin blood.

[@nicholasseitz4728]

I’m wondering if Ned’s subconsciously put their white cloaks on in the dream to show them as kings guard. And they were doing things he had seen them doing in real life, just not at the tower. That could be part of just the dreamscape.

[@nicholasseitz4728]

So maybe they were only standing out front in the dream

[@Paul_W_222]

This is really interesting and well thought out. Yeah, how did Ned and Howland (who is probably barely over 5 feet tall) pull down the Tower of Joy? By going Super Saiyan? Is Howland Reed Vegeta? In my mind the two biggest clues linking Arthur and Mance are 1. Arthur was very charismatic and able to win the trust of the common people during the Kingsguard's fight against the Kingswood Brotherhood even though the common people in the area supported the brotherhood and hated the king Arthur and his sworn brothers served. Sounds a lot like Mance to me- rallying people together through his charisma against seemingly overwhelming odds. And 2. The fight between Mance and Jon . . . Jon is an exceptional swordsman by that point. I could be wrong, but I think I recall that like Garland, at that point in the story Jon typically trains against three men at a time? That is something only elite fighters are capable of, and yet Mance beats Jon very soundly with a greatsword . . . the same kind of of weapon Arthur Dayne used. It is established in that scene that a geratsword is not the ideal weapon to use in a one on one duel, yet "Mance" chooses that as his weapon and he is exceptional with it . . . just like Arthur Dayne. Excellent, excellent video. edit: also love your point about 3 brothers of the kingsguard (the best fighters in the realm) wouldn't use the tower to their advantage in their fight/ fighting in narrow corridors. They could have obliterated Ned and his party. Ned and his men were probably quite good, but not necessarily exceptional. For example, Ethan Glover was in the dungeons at the Red Keep for the entire war, certainly not in fantastic fighting condition. 3 against 7 is not good odds, but it is not an impossible skirmish- certainly not for the best fighters in the realm. Even in real life (in the Classical and Medieval eras) there are reliable accounts of a few very good fighters being able to defeat much larger numbers . . . odds much worse than three against seven. If Ned's men were using pikes and crossbows and playing dirty it might not have been an issue, but it is clearly established that every man used a sword. Martin is well aware of this kind of thing and he also has consultants who are experts on Medieval fighting and warfare. There is much more to the Tower of Joy than meets the eye.

[@deecawford]

I am so happy to find your podcasts. Omg I love the take you two put on these books. You help me makes sense of things.

[@ReeceDee]

Just to support you guys stating how bizarre it would be for the kingsguard to be standing outside in their white cloaks and armour when they're defending the heir to the throne and secrecy and discretion is matter of life and death. John connington when seeing the camp layout of the GC marvels at how disciplined and organised it was. A camp Arthur Dayne would approve of. This just drills home how Arthur is the most disciplined strategic soldier

[@petebondurant58]

How could a natural born child be heir to the throne, when Viserys still lives?

[@adamberg8939]

Theory: Probably made up elsewhere but here: Ned and the others memories were tampered with magic by Raegar Targarian. The discrepancies are not from time but that idea crosses their minds to prevent them from breaking the spell. The mond tries to reason it all and best it does is to gloss over the confusing pieces that don't fit. Why? They were not there initially but "awoke" there with the memories implanted in order to cover up some other deception being done and ensure the saving of Jon. The memory is the seed of the emotions needed to get the desired result. I'll need to reread everything far more to elaborate this. Chances? Low, I know

[@bumpotato1922]

What struck me the most was the exchange between Ned and 3 KG, it's as if almost poetic. Ned kept asking why they're not on the places that made more sense for their presence. It's either, he never met them at all and that all those companions that was supposed to be with him in the TOJ might have died in different circumstances during the war.

[@Lotschi]

really interesting thoughts! I never thought about the link between the Others and the seven gods but I think it‘s quite plausible. I just wonder what the origin of the seven would be.

[@Ericjones17]

Old nan told Bran the others have blue eyes. She would have told young Ned the same

[@duckquacked318]

"As blue as the eyes of death" sounds like an in world idiom. It doesn't have to mean Ned is a believer.

[@yanisyudishtira3251]

Hello from Morocco, Dorne of the real world. What if the fight that ensued wasn't between Ned's companions and the Kingsgard? What Ned's companions turned on him because they thought Lyana was a traitor, and Ned had to protect her. Reed could have talked Arthur Dayne out of killing Ned, and into helping him defend Lyana. This would explain why the fight had to take place, the dream doesn't specify who fought who, and doesn't specify who survive, and Ned didn't say that Reed killed Arthur Dayne, He just said that Reed prevented Ned from being killed by Arthur Dayne. Maybe this possibility deserves some digging. Keep on keeping on!

[@justincurll1110]

Kned knows what the Others's eyes look like... mind blowwwwn.

[@frankl3518]

The dreams all have 3 in them. 3 knights, 3 girls and 3 dogs

[@carlrood4457]

Artists often depict different people as looking similar, particularly if they use models to aid in visuializing.

[@reisanibal1]

I'm more and more convinced of your theory that Mance Rayder = Arthur Dayne. One thing I don't understand however is why would Ned's companions die there?

[@pauldaskal9510]

I thought the eyes were always blue on the dead's eyelids..but if you notice in season 1 John Arryn has brown eye rocks!! lots of love D and ME

[@LusiaEyre]

I always thought that the logistics of ToJ were off. Let's assume that Ned's party was spotted and the Knights were ready for them and there was a fight and Lyanna was at the Watchtower. 1. Rhaegar, Lyanna, Arthur and Oswell were away together for moths. And as much as I believe that Knights can tend to themselves (cook a meal, mend a shirt) we are talking about 4 highborns that need feeding and dressing and washing - and those things are not easy. There were legitimate reasons why people needed help getting dressed in those days. And they needed at least food ingredients and fresh linens. And what about their horses? Where the horses went? So, I find it hard to believe that there was no attendants at the Tower. No cook or washerwoman or a woman to attend Lyanna? And the family on whose lands they were, didn't know a prince set up camp with the missing Stark girl? 2. If Lyanna died of a fever it was most likely a childbed fever. Unless she bled out during birth and Ned simply called it a fever... good timing with that right? She goes into labour as soon as Ned arrives? Queen Jane Seymour died some 2 weeks after Prince Edward's birth. So was Lyanna giving birth when Ned arrived? Was she some days post partum feverish and dying or still pregnant and someplace else? 3. Ladies breastfeeding their own children is not uncommon in Westeros, even Cersei nursed Joffrey, but would they really not have a back up plan? No wetnurse at the ready just in case? My personal headcanon that Wylla the wet nurse was with Lyanna. If Wylla arrived with Ned and Howland at Starfall with baby Jon, it's simple for the rumour to persist that she was Lord Stark's bastard's mother. Edric Dayne believes such at the same time as he talks about Ned and Ashara being in love... 4. Ned could've returned Dawn to Starfall at a later date. It would still be honourable of him. But it seems like he pick up a newborn, a cranogman, a second big sword (he also had Ice with him?) and ventured further south just to return a sword and say sorry-bye to Ashara? There were few keeps much closer, if Ned was desperate for aid with food and rest. Including Blackhaven of Dondarrions, Robert's bannermen- in case he didn't trust the Dornish. 5. "They found him" suggest that Howland wasn't alone running after Ned. 6. How did he clean Lyanna's body to just bones? I think this involves boiling flesh of the bones. How? In the middle of nowhere? And why not bring the bones of his men back North too then? Funeral rites were very important to the Northmen. Or even why not bring Arthur's bones with his sword? 7. Watchtowers are hardly castles, so maybe with 7 horses and some earth magic from Howland they were able to crumble it? However, if the reason was to hide the evidence then why build cairns? Clearly man made structures marking a spot (contrary to Ned's wish for no one to ever find any of it again?) As sad as it would be, why not bury the bodies in the sand and let the desert keep his secrets?

[@ashleyrose471]

The story of tower of joy has always bugged me. The dream makes no sense and I feel like tearing it down would've been the furthest thing from Neds mind at the time ( not to mention basically impossible). It just seems like some sort of cover up or something.

[@EdgedShadow]

What is the app annotations you guys are referring to? Some exclusive e-book edition? Were the annotations written by George himself?

[@RevealTheStyle]

Amazing point about those stones with painted blue eyes that they make for the dead! Immediately comes to mind that this ritual is a parallel to how even truest Rhlorists like Melisandre do something trivialised currently, and what actually is a crazy potent magical ritual. The kiss of fire. P.S. not to be confused with the “lords kiss” John performed for Ygritte in the cave 😹🙈🙊. Shout out to LML

[@frankvandorp9732]

The most logical explanation for Ned and the Kingsguard fighting IMHO is that the Kingsguard planned to go into exile with Jon, raise him as Rhaegar's son and heir and eventually challenge Robert's rule and restore the Targaryens on the throne. They might have been acting on Rhaegar's direct orders, who saw Jon as his contingency plan in case he would lose to Robert and all other Targaryens would get killed, so the royal line would continue through his secret son Robert doesn't know about. Ned would want to take Jon north instead and just hide him from Robert, and not have him become a threat to his friend's rule. Hence the conflict. Obviously this doesn't work completely if you don't believe R+L=J (though it works equally well for 'R+L=Meera or someone else other than Jon'), but this is a very logical explanation for everything that happened including the fight, and the conflict makes sense both from the perspective of Ned and from the perspective of the Kingsguard. I never understood why absolutely no one in the entire community seems to have ever thought of this option.

[@blondymonk1535]

But Jon was not the baby born at ToJ tho. (imo)

[@jacobenke7936]

@@blondymonk1535 It's been beaten to death, the timing doesn't work. Jon has no textual connection to Rhaegar or Dragons. His symbolism is all Stark/Dayne.

[@blondymonk1535]

@@jacobenke7936 George does suck with timing tho. Keep that in mind. But still, yeah.

[@oconnor6456]

My favorite channel with another video again. By the by, would you guys do a podcast discussing about Ned's relationship with Ashara or whatever that might have happened between them. Why do you think that Ned never once thought about her in all of his chapters?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Because it’d be a giveaway so George made sure Ned had too much on his plate to let his mind wander when we were in his head and killed him off before it became completely unrealistic

[@tempertempernow]

Loved the 2nd listen, you guys are the best.

[@subarnosinha8042]

Loved it, as is norm with your content. I've a question though: what happened to Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Mark Ryswell and Willam Dustin, if the fight didn't happen?

[@jimboslice6367]

Exactly

[@4chickenlipstick]

True, it mainly reads as if they all died at the same time. Martyn Cassel, for example, definitely help put his whole family in a great position back at Winterfell. His bones are noted by Ned to be in “the south”. Maybe they died at Starfall? There’s no way to know yet. Pulling down a tower, even a ruin one, and traveling to Starfall would all be much more survivable with a bigger crew of guys.

[@neriumsuitedher]

We know that the timeline is all screwed up but if the Andal invasion actually happened during the Long Night then it makes sense that their faith is so tied to the Others.

[@GingerCnut]

A great way too improve any Monday. Thank you

[@chafrey8532]

Where did this faith of the seven theory come from?!? I apologize I’m newish here and have never heard that and LOVE IT. do you guys have a larger video on this??

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you so much. Our theories come from our brains after spending a borderline embarrassing amount of time reading, rereading and discussing the text. Our faith theories are largely summarized in our Lying POS Andals series but there are nuggets here and there throughout our various playlists

[@chafrey8532]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand thank you for the reply! Love your channel. Looks like I’m heading down the rabbit hole.

[@cassandraayersman6360]

Something spooky happened Cersei was hearing a prophecy from a witch Varamyr was found to be skin changing and I don’t know what was going on with Ned but maybe something supernatural

[@MrSpartacus1970]

I think Ned or Howland used their warging power to temporaily distract the Kingshuard.

[@robertharley1272]

The Tower of Joy is one of the more convoluted aspects of the whole series. The more you pour over it the less sense and more questions it brings up. I am more and more convinced that there was no battle and rather a plan was devised concerning the new heir of the recently slain prince. I think the fates of Ned's companions will be revealed in the next two books and I like the idea that Arthur Dayne and Oswald Whent joined the Wildlings and Night's Watch respectively. Sir Gerold Hightower is the really nasty thorn all the way through regardless of which theory. He was sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar so we are told. Then we are to belive he was at the so called Tower of Joy instead of returning with Rhaegar as would be expected. He is also older than the other Kingsguard. I am very curious if Lyanna's child isn't Daenarys and Gerold Hightower took her to Essos with the others to join up with princr Visaerys and the other exiles

[@DafyddBrooks]

Maybe they all met at the tower to have a Joyful time :)

[@colonialjim9154]

Are we getting a little complicated here? If three badass dudes slaughtered your companions you’d never forget what they looked like either. Or Ned was the one that killed all three.

[@duckquacked318]

I would. I'd be looking at the swords and at my friends dying, not studying facial features of the assailants. It's more common in modern times for victims of violent crime to give more full descriptions of weapons than of faces. That said I expect warriors would be thinking more clearly than most modern people in situation s like that.

[@nononono3421]

There is a story of a warrior maid, Wylla of Wyl and Yoren Ironwood being turned back when they fought Durran the Young AKA Butcher Boy (a storm king) at the Battle by the Bloody Pool. This sounds a lot like Lyanna (every Wylla has parallels to Lyanna, check the wiki) + another man fighting against Robert, and the Ruby Ford. The only other Yoren in the books is the one who gave Arya a fake identity to bring her to the wall. I think this is all supposed to echo what happened with Lyanna. In the Wylla of Wyl story, both Yoren and Wylla retreat after Durran the Young kills the Dornishmen. This could have been Lyanna + someone else under a fake identity fighting at the Trident. Lyanna gets wounded, heads back to the Tower and dies there.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

... "in a tower long fallen"... that sounds like the tower Bran climbs more than it does the Tower of Joy...IDK... the thing is, once they deposed the Mad King... and defeated Rhaegar, ordinarily Viserys would have been King and a regency would ensue. Robert said he didn't want to be King... but somebody had to have an agenda. Perhaps Tywin had promised the queenship to his daughter, and making someone else King (other than Viserys) was necessary for him to keep his promise. Cersei was NOT going to wait for Viserys to come of age... was she? So maybe he DID give the order to kill all the Targaryens..? ... but still... what exactly was Tywin's plan? How did he get along with Arryn... or Tully? There is so much that doesn't make sense.

[@TheLastSoundNL]

The and vs commas might be something else. The possibility that it's George's grammar checker, should be considered. His increasing popularity could have him be allocated a better grammar checker by his editor. I know it's lame, but not everything is perfect and not everything is intentional (though a lot of it is). George has also made some mistakes in the first book. For example the value of currency is vastly different. Which is a big one considering the Crown's debt is an important plot point.

[@michelmorio8026]

There are several things odd and I have my problems with this theory! 1) Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, is supposed to be large... Tormund isn‘t large at all! And he has several adult children... the oldest would be just around 15 if Tormund actually was the White Bull, given the point when they would have come North of the Wall and a full pregnancy 2) Why should Qhorin/Oswell force Jon to kill him, when he would get brought to his old buddy Arthur/Mance?!? To me, there would be no reason; he would be save with his friend being king-beyond-the-Wall and leader of the Wildlings! 3) Sorry, but I see no resemblance between Mance and Arthur on the picture... these are just some dudes with long hair to me, nothing more! Speaking about hair... Arthur on the picture has black hair, while Mance has brown hair with some turning grey! I guess he has no reason to dye it brown, given that anyone believes he is dead anyways... or anyone that knew him is thousands of miles away! The only connection between these two is Mance tarnished as Rattleshirt wears also a bigass sword and gives Jon quite a beating... but Jon got also beaten by Iron Emmett, multiple times actually, the pride of Eastwatch! You could convince me with one of them ending up north of the Wall, perhaps even two could be a believable thing! But you definitely loose me with the White Bull being Tormund and all 3 of them going north Don‘t you think if Ned actually knew or just believed the Others are a thing, wouldn‘t he have put more thoughts into Gareds words and actions before/after he beheads him? Would he even behead him? Ok, he still deserted, but he doesn‘t give a damn afterwards! That seems strange to me if he actually knew about the others Concerning your points about the church and cardinals in the medieval... dead wrong! Around 80-90% of cardinals and bishops were younger sons of lords or rich patricians from merchant cities! They literally bought them those offices cause they had nothing to inherit... a diocese had large revenues to offer to finance a nobles lifestyle; and not everyone was fit to become a Knight, besides, like you said, they also had influence and were councilors which also could help the family climb the ladder!

[@lastpenny849]

I think the White Bull had a large Girth, he was not described as tall. I think what is more interesting is how Thormund talks inthe books. Always throwing in a Ha! after saying something educated, followed by an obscene comment about his member.. It's clearly an act. He knows what Maesters Ink is, also what a Goosequill is, so what does a Wildling need to write for? Too many subtle hints for a GRR Martin book for the theory to be completely discarded. I also tie Allara Dayne in to the story, either being the mother of Val, or being the Sister in Bravos travelling with "FAegon".. not sure though. Her body was never found, so it's easy to make assumptions about her suicide..

[@michelmorio8026]

@@lastpenny849 you don‘t get the Name „White Bull“ if you aren’t a muscular and big guy, sorry, but there simply is no plausible explanation! While I believe there is a great chance Ashara Dayne might be still alive, Septa Lemore seems unlikely! Tyrion would have made remarks if her eyes would have been violett, which he didn‘t! Also, while her hair colour is not a good proof, hers is brown, Ashara had black! Ashara cannot be older then mid 30‘s at this point, Lemore is described as over 40 by Tyrion... during my first read, I had similar thoughts! But too many things don’t fit... but hey, I, like all of us, can be wrong about all of these speculations! All I say is I don‘t think these characters are Gerold and Ashara! Due to 10 years without a released book, there are now simply too many theories about who is actually who in disguise... basically half the characters pretend to be someone else we thought is dead the last 20 years we New the books according to all these Theories 😂 but I guess that’s almost normal in our times where we see a and b and directly assume there must be some hidden truth so they are both actually c! That trick works one or twice, but it would take much away from the story if that happens with every second characters! Arstan Whitebeard = Barristan Selmy was good done and pretty fast solved R+L=J was another one very interesting (pre show and pre far too many forums & channels was another good one), I will always remember reading Ned’s dream around 16 years ago thinking „man, what if Jon is Rhaegars son with Lyanna“ running to my Laptop searching if others had the same theory 😂😂😂 of course there were already hundreds of articles about that... Or Lem Lemoncloak being Rhaegars friend Richard Lonmouthe is another one I find truly convincing tbh

[@lastpenny849]

@@michelmorio8026 All is assumption at this point. It wouldn't be the first or last time George drops a surprise in there. Mance seems too much of a character personality wise to be just a northener. He persuaded all the Northern tribes to join in a very similar way Dayne tamed the Smiling Bandit and his irk, by persuasion and wit as well as a sword. If Arthur was Raeghars best friend, why wouldn't he want to live and assist in the upbringing of his Son/Daughter. There is of course always the chance that Val is a child of Raeghar and John is a child of Neds, or maybe both are Raeghars children The way she interacts with Ghost is interesting. Thormund is a puzzle where something doesn't fit right.. Not sure he is who he says he is.. I look forward to finding out, and I'm not sure about any of the theories, including my own, and that is what keeps it interesting.

[@BLewTheKake]

Oh man! What an AWESOME topic and video!

[@jaipandey7142]

I have a theory, what if valyrians were mutated with dragon's blood, long long ago in Asshai

[@jessewilliams9195]

Another awesome podcast. Thanks!

[@neriumsuitedher]

7 grey wraiths facing 3... Faith of the Seven Other symbolism vs the Three-headed dragon symbolism. (Just started the video, dropping an observation before I forget it)

[@duckquacked318]

I'd love to see a long form panel debate on Jon's parentage. Order of the Green Hand plus another scholar/scholastic unit of your choosing Vs History of Westeros + In Deep Geek. Please? 🙏❤️🙏

[@lucieaumont8927]

Heyo guys, about the faces, it might be that the faces of the kings gardes are more important to remeber than the faces of his men in the dream or in the meaning of the dream. Especially if the dream was sent. Just a idea.

[@jonsnowknowsnothing2537]

Weird that when ned goes to Starfall, howland reed is not there or a baby.

[@andrewschneider2121]

There was a deleted chapter in the earlier books about a meeting between Ned and Mance. Ned would secretly meet with Mance in the woods north of winterfell. Look up operation northwoods

[@Stephen-so9oi]

Is this a meme? Lmfao

[@Holly_Fae]

Another thing about the TOJ that confuses me. Why would Ned take Dawn back to Starfall and not Sir Arthur's bones? it doesn't make sense.

[@mahgorstark7793]

I mean when you get people killed or they die or their life changes because of you....you probably don't really wanna remember there face for your own inner peace

[@DamorkaDalilla]

Guys where are the links to the pictures that you mentioned?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We just posted them on our channel page and social media

[@shannond7437]

Oh see I think the North doesn’t actually remember what is most important. Winter is coming is their typical hardship. I think the blue eyes was an outside influence/fevre dream/George f-ing with us wordplay! I love the Starks but I think the blue eyes were more likely to come from an old Nan story. 🤷‍♀️

[@geoffsokoll-oh1gq]

We can go beyond the Medieval church. The French king named the bishops in France up until the Revolution. Louis XVI commented, upon being given a recommendation for Archbishop of Paris (the highest ranking churchman in France) is said to have commented, I'm not saying that the Archbishop of Paris should be a saint, but at least, he should believe in God (he was an admitted atheist).

[@opinionatedraven2994]

IMO they were able to tear the tower down because it already was "the tower long fallen" when they had their fight there.

[@marcusanark2541]

Leaving a like and a comment now, I'll watch it later.

[@nashwm]

in reference to the art, Qhorin and Mance I absolutely agree the art looks like the same guy. I don't really see it with Tormund. I'm not saying that I think Tormund and Gerold are not the same person. I just don't this this art looks similar enough to be the same person.

[@williamhermann6635]

I dont think the Tower of Joy ever even happened. They were at Starfall or High Hermitage the entire time. Thats why Ned went there. I'll bet you Ned's group of soldiers who allegedly died at TOJ are now in service to House Dayne under new names. Oh and I discovered these two tidbits the other day when name searching: Haldon (as in haldon halfmaester) is danish for "half-dane" and the name Arryn translates to: "the light bringer". I found both extremely interesting.

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks dave and Mary Ellen. ( sir and milady)

[@nicholasseitz4728]

I also just refuse to believe anyone killed a wielder of Dawn. Even with a tricksy crannogman