Garro Deserved Better | Warhammer 40k Lore

[@DominusNox106]

Garro and Loken deserve so much better.

[@blainelashley2120]

Not sure how they just killed loken so easy, makes me sick 😢

[@ksh2596]

True... The first 4 HH books were the best...

[@tarn1135]

Not everyone gets the hero’s ending.

[@Fatties09]

Yes. Garro and Loken deserved so much more.

[@ThanhTrungNguyen-zj2sp]

I really hope Garro will be revived in the future as a member of Legion of the Damned or as a living saint or by some other way by the power of the Emperor.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

OH DON'T YOU WORRY

[@Itisoverthere-rw]

The Legion of the Damn? I laughed more than I should.

[@Oppen1945]

As should every Loyal Marine of the Traitor Legions. They all deserved better.

[@alejandrorp5160]

I hope he doesn't come back. Stop cheapening sacrifice!

[@Aberinkula9]

​@@alejandrorp5160 THIS! EXACTLY! The Imperium's fandom in general would do favours by stop their childish wishful thinking of wanting a kind of "happy ending" BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY (that, generally, spoils the lore). The common "symptom" of this wishful thinking, for instance, is the desire to make the traitor primarchs loyalists again, disregarding COMPLETELY the agency of some of those traitors that disliked the Emperor BEFORE the Horus Heresy (Angron is the best example and you know why) or that made a more calculated decision in joining Chaos (Perturabo, for instance). The other "symptom" is this: the desire to resurrect all those who died by the Imperium's side, CHEAPENING their deaths and SACRIFICES just for some childish desire for a happy ending... People, you want something like that? Go read Marvel's or DC's comics! Its stories are full of people that die and resurrect NULLIFYING the impact of their deaths!

[@ohamatchhams]

I think Mortarion's redemption and purification will involve Garro becoming an Imperial Saint and starts tampering The Warp and Chaos in unusual ways, considering Garro being the first Imperial Cult's martyr and how apparently Power of Faith works different and tapping into different sources from other Warp powers regardless of being psychic, chaos, eldar, etc as shown with what happened to humans in Pariah Nexus, these should've ties well if GW going to develop the stories further

[@CM-ck4nl]

I think it goes to show that in those earlier 40k days True emotional character drama was not their most finely honed skill. A lot of 40k is written like a historical record and it sometimes struggles to get past that thick space marine hide to reveal the humans underneath. Like they didn't know how to depict a genuine crisis of faith at that juncture. Just my impression tho.

[@Zimzilla99]

As I share the name of garro. It would have been interesting if they played up the meaning behind his name as part of his character. Gift of god or given of god. Had his faith been tested more or more directly become a saint would tie up the story for one of the first marines of the imperial cult

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

OH WOW I DIDN"T KNOW IT MEANT THAT! Thats so cool!

[@Zimzilla99]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary what’s also interesting is that garro comes from old albia. If I recall Fabius had mentioned that albia had the myth of king Arthur so garro is from Britain. And his spelling of Nathaniel comes from around the Protestant Reformation

[@Matt-md5yt]

There is a theory that he is from the land of Arthur and has the sword reforged

[@TechNinjaSigma]

You know how Saints are like Demons but not entirely? I think it would be cool if Garro achieved True Apotheosis. Like, it's taken thousands of years, with the Emperor actively halting his ascension to godhood he's never had a true "Imperial Prince". Garro's ascension to Princehood would be a double-edged sword, as he would be a powerful symbol of faith to the Imperium but also, an omen of the Emperors own ascension, and we all now know what that may entail. Also, Garro's autonomy would be no more, as with all "Princes", their will and very being is forever-more bound to their master. Whispers of building chorus in the Warp, miracles of healing and restoration, of divine vigor coming to the armies as a golden light and with it, victory against certain death. The tarot is cast again and again, the ending card always being, The Martyr.

[@aurun1015]

waiting for your end and the death part 3!

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

ALmost done with the audiobook and I've been taking A LOOOOT of notes while listening but sadly mt school schedule is hell rn :(

[@aurun1015]

@livefromtheblacklibrary No worries mate, It'll be worth waiting for. No spoilers from me but I felt the book should have gone on a bit longer, certainly didn't answer all my questions

[@ricoklan2101]

​@@livefromtheblacklibrary Take as long as you need!! Focus on irl first

[@cassdobbins1605]

Garro would have been a good choice to take up Garviel's heresy role in a scouring series. Would have given him his own spotlight and could have still ended with a final Morty confrontation, dying as Morty gets banished and the Dreah Guard retreats into the eye. My guess is Sigismund will play that role instead.

[@Matt-md5yt]

Yeah love the guy and think he did deserve better

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

I feel like having him in a big role in at least ONE more book would have done wonders

[@Matt-md5yt]

Agreed this lad is a knight of old in power armor. His sword has to be the legendary one. @livefromtheblacklibrary

[@izzymosley1970]

One thing I find interesting about 40k is the value of human life on the one hand the imperial guard mostly uses human lives like ammunition and from this you would think individual human soldiers aren't that important but on the other hand you have very important named characters that are able to do incredible things despite only being one person which I think is a pretty interesting contrast between the named characters and the nameless characters.

[@TheDeadPoolfan]

Lol this talk bout garro always questioning his fate and dying to save others reminds that the best example of that that I've seen (and can think of atm), was dinobots death from beast wars. Abit cringe, but the whole plot of the character was his troubles with destiny and if he's the master of his own fate. His story ARC is something I think is a prime example of how characters like that should be handled

[@or6397]

I am really curious about where they go with Keeler. The 2nd Ed Sisters codex seems to say somebody else was in charge of the early Ecclesiarchy. I could see them getting her exiled to San Leor and that being the thread that way down the line leads to the Sisters of Battle.

[@Makorze]

Or Keeler is somehow the founder of the "Daughters of the Emperor" - the order they were before Vandire found them. Maybe that was the revelation Alicia and her sisters witnessed when the Custodes brought them before the Emperor. He told them about Keeler or perhaps even gave them her blessing. After all, the "Daughters of the Emperor" only start rising back up as "Living Saints" and thier other Faith based shinanigans after they met the Emperor, killed Vandire and are reformed into the Adeptus Sororitas

[@jaymack6981]

I like your videos a lot, man. This type of music is much better than the jazz you usually have on, in my opinion. Keep 'em comin.

[@anlize3422]

I would like to think that characters that died heroically, like Rylanor, join the legion of the damned with one purpose: to F over chaos. Characters that died for the faith and intent should be saints, because their purpose is rally up the people and soldiers of the imperium, bringing His gold light of hope and recovery whenever they go. To me that sounds fitting. That being said, for a series that has SO. MANY. BOOKS. it does feel like some characters were handed poorly and "in a haste" I dare say. Garro having waaay too many parallels with Loken and being a victim of "telling to much"(in terms of his inner conflicts) feels like a problem of pacing and development.

[@WizPaints]

Been binging your stuff after watching you on astartes anonymous, loving the content. I’m excited to see you tackle the last end and the death book

[@benjamintrejo9307]

Chronobis the best

[@arionofotherworld]

I think he would be a cool potential Living Saint for the Grey Knights, maybe when they ditch their secrecy, stop executing people who see them, and fight openly for the Imperium against Chaos.

[@bartnump8287]

Samius is the result of Lokens death.

[@samthesuspect]

Yeah wait till Loken...

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

I really liked Loken in the first 3 books & then he “died”. And Garro got to sort of pick up that baton & keep running the race. And I enjoyed that. Then Loken came back & was emotionally damaged (which is reasonable) & he felt grating. I’ve not seen Loken since Vengeful Spirit (I got there, then stopped reading for a bit before restarting the series on Audible & I just started The Crimson King). I guess what I’m trying to say is that Loken feels like the Diet Garro to me right now.

[@firstnamelastname8058]

I haven't kept up with the hourus heresy for a few years... I was 100% sure Garro and Garviel were on the path to becoming the grey knights despite reading the writers say they weren't. "it's more complicated than that" they said. well.. I must admit the outcome is shocking, yet I should have seen it coming, I guess I didn't want to.

[@Krulltårta]

Youre the most entertaining and insightful complainer ever so just keep on itchin please!

[@Quasimodo-mq8tw]

Imo i like to believe that Garro´s Vision at his end, this moment, his unquestioning believe birthed the Starchild or better made the Warp manifestation of the Emperor self aware. A consistant warp-beeing.

[@calebcollins5887]

With all the beloved Horus heresy characters dying heroically it’d be cool to see them included in the legion of the damned at least a select few, like Rylanors sacrifice would be worthy of it.

[@kevinmccalister4602]

Regarding the night lords videos they’re some of my favorites of all time on this channel. Because I agree completely with everything said in them. I was and still am a night lords fan, but I had never heard a more accurate description of their flaws and it was hilarious I listened to them both like 8 times over the last fear. Thanks for making them both. Now on with finishing the video on Garro

[@briharrisWarhmmer40kfan]

I can’t wait to see your video on Lokens send off after you read the end and the death part 3 😮😅

[@Paradoxe44]

The reality that most of the Horus Heresy authors most probably did not read all of the Horus Heresy books is kinda depressing

[@JIMT412]

I was there when he flew from the Istvaan massacre to send the message about the Heresy, I was there when he rescued Loken and found the rest members of the Knights Errant... I was there when Mortarion killed him when he sacrifice himself to save The First Saint and I will be there to see his possible return. Nathaniel Garro, Captain of the 7th Great Company, the Dusk Rider, the Death Guards, the Knight Errant, the First Martyr, the First Grey Knight.

[@mecht0ast485]

I hope we get a table top model if he was to be a saint would be amazing

[@be1394]

LMAO, Lokens fate😂😂

[@magnusthered8652]

I think the faulta and succesess in Garros arch are a perfect reflection of the problems and virtuea of the horus heresy, a single unified storyline but told by a dozen authors, if different authora tackle the same character it risks having troubles by being portayes differently through the books, like what happens with little horus, but if only one author takes on a character it risks not having enough time to develop and settle

[@Thecheerioatsguy]

Shouldn't have been bald, simple as

[@benjamintrejo9307]

Clearly all his hair was on his ballsack. Duh.

[@Dredgenvore]

Alright, hear me out, our boy Garro is revived by good ‘ol Johnny Grammaticus

[@foreverfornever1124]

Easily my favorite HH character. I really hope he gets a new character model for the the HH game someday. He's also why I would start that game with a deathguard army in the first place

[@jonharrison9222]

I still wish he could have been Janus. But do remember that not every hero is going to get a happy ending.

[@al-mungus677]

Maybe im just childish but swallows brainchild had giggling

[@virn333]

Hey chrono please make another video about the other horus heresey loyalist badass, Loken, and how given recent events in book he DEFINITELY DESERVED BETTER

[@Turnil321]

Video idea.Terran born space marine vs primach planet space marines. With some loyalist legion, the Terran-born space marines turned traitor or went rogue.

[@Canadian_Zac]

I also wonder Why wasnt Garro sent to Istvaan with the others to be purged? Tarvitz, Fulgrim was thinking he could be turned, so he was kept out to try to turn him. Garro though. Was picked out as one who wouldnt turn. But was kept in a ship during the purge

[@inquisitorz9036]

Garro has always been my favorite character in the horus heresy and possibly the entire 40k universe. I like how he struggles with his faith something I have as a believer always struggled with it, even as you have pointed out its not that flushed out. 40k has always been pne of those francises that writes religious chracters well.

[@lionheartfilms793]

"I only spent audible credits on two heresy books" 😬 *me who has the whole heresy including all the novellas and short story comp on audible

[@inductivegrunt94]

I'd love to see Garro return as a Legion of the Damned, or maybd an Imperial Saint like yoi said, and have him face down Mortarion and taunt by his mere presence. Give them a proper fight with Mortarion speaking to Garro as Garro stands there silent, Mortarion taunting Garro before switching words to questioning, and then demanding he speak. But Garro won't speak. He simply exists, but not as himself, but as a shadow or golden warrior wreathed in holy flame, one who's there to do in death what he could not do in life, kill Mortarion.

[@ARC5]

wait tell you find out what they did to my boy loken.....

[@jamesthelamenter5464]

Good thing I don't consider massive parts of the Horus Heresy as Canon. I feel like I dodged a bullet. It still sucks for those invested in the book series.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

I'd say it's basically all canon aside from some earlier bits here and there that get retconned

[@jamesthelamenter5464]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary I agree to some extent. Simply because it makes the lore and story come off as cheap. Regardless it is just my opinion and I think that keeping certain things in a setting vague allows the fans a better approach and enjoyment of the stories that we love.

[@shadows.82]

I would love to see Garro return as a living saint and be the one to end Mortarion.

[@ariels3372]

the preacher is also in a city of bones thats the true big e thats important i love the saint idea also is story gpoing to the cage? idn any more

[@pedropierre9594]

I dont understand this “ subverting expectations “ trend, it only makes the writers job easier and takes away the grandeur of stories, they end so shitty nobody cares like Lokens death

[@aaronlatham9194]

The fact Warhawk and Knight were published in the wrong order really ruined it for me. Also a case of authors not communicating. Imagine if the Khan had spotted the half healed wound in Mortarions throat and targeted it. The ending definitely redeemed iy though you're right 10/10 saint (imperial deamon) bate.

[@vaultatropos116]

Oh boy, I hope Loken has a satifiying, well-deserved end that totally isn't lame shit.

[@jamesthelamenter5464]

Spoilers: You have been warned. >Emperor no longer obliterates Horus' soul with his psychic might, stabs him with the athame instead and he dies. >Horus repents at the end asking Emperor to kill him. >Ollanius mashed by Horus' talon after trying to stop him with a las rifle. >Loken survives Horus, and stands vigil over his corpse but is killed by Erebus who appears out of nowhere whilst begging to Abbadon to surrender. His murder creates Samus in the warp. >Lorgar sits the whole thing out and no resolution to the Narek subplot. Put simply as I can it basically pisses on the warhammer 40k and horus heresy and is a massive "Fuck you" to the fans.

[@Aniket-fl8qk]

Are you serious??? Is it real

[@deathwatch962]

@@Aniket-fl8qkit’s real, buts he’s reading from a really shitty reading. The one on something awful is a lot better. I’ve just findued reading it, and it’s a lot better than the sum of its parts.

[@andarchy1386]

Nope Lokin gets stabbed in the back by erebus

[@DINOROAR2912]

I think Loken will die in the opposite way to what he dreams of

[@wernerfuhry]

Oh boy.... I'm really curious about what your thoughts are amd what you will say about The end and the death 3

[@jamesdean7071]

still waiting for that saint Garro mini

[@insertedgynamehere]

Spoilers for End and the Death part 3 Loken got it way worse

[@CidGaius]

Garro is the Dr. Pibb to Garfield’s Dr. Pepper

[@stanberry6798]

I took Saul's death personally. As well as Solomons. Emperors Children gang. If I could've had one legion stay loyalist. It would've been them.

[@americanman3745]

I've forgiven you for the Nightlords video.

[@Aberinkula9]

What do I think? For the REAL God's sake (not the false one rotting in the Golden Throne) let the dead be dead and, most of all, REST! Let Garro rest in his glorious sacrifice I say!

[@v02max75]

Personally, if that is indeed the last few words that Garro spoke(or thought), then indeed, he SHOULD come back(in some form). Legion of the Damned, living Saint, whatever. These are pretty cut and dry words that maybe GW wanted to use his character again some day. I wonder if there is a way to have him become a "Saint of the Grey" or some such bullshit. An obvious nod to his being the first GK/Inquisitor(unofficially) I wonder if he and Draigo are chumming it up in the warp killing warp spawn......

[@Canadian_Zac]

I really wish more heroic sacrifices, DIDNT get that wounding hit in Garro doesnt need to stab Mortarion in the neck, it doesnt mortally wound or debilitate him. His only goal there, is to delay him so she can get away. He knows he cant win the fight. So all his goal is, is to buy time. Wounding Mortarion doesnt matter He should have more embodied the death guard thing if refusing to die Mortarion doing full grim reaper on him, but Garro refusing to go down. Losing hard, but just not dying. Dont even need Keeler's buff. Just him and his faith, believing in the cause and refusing to give up until he see's her escsping. Missing limbs, punctured lungs, destroyed heart, chunk of his face cut off, but still trying to keep delaying, until he sees the ship take off, or hears Keeler telling him hus duty is done and he can let go now. Beat Mortarion at his own game by using stubborn tenacity to stop him

[@zeroakira584]

Let's all be real, Garro is Salamander under that power armour.

[@justinwetmore9409]

You and your videos inspired me to make 40K content. Thank you.❤

[@FnRenner]

Garro is a Stormcast Eternal?

[@benjamintrejo9307]

Don’t talk smack on my boy Garro 😂 pretty much disagree with everything u said. Keep it up. U da best lore channel on YT

[@Tulkash01]

Oh god… can’t wait to see what your reaction will be when you get at the end of tEatD V3…

[@afc3006]

Oh boy, wait till u know how loken dies

[@jamesknighton4489]

Just like the Ancient of Rites

[@MrWeezy312]

if u do not spend audible credits how do u get the books? Physical copies

[@lumichst4889]

if is faith have been more oppose and critisise in the series it could have make a beautiful passage maybe before is death or at the moment for him to see that another brother of the astartes borrow the same faith and duty of ptecting ufrey as sigismund. maybe evenbeing acknoledge by him

[@Irishman1861]

Just wrapped up the book I picked up on the siege of terra series and now going back to find any good reads. It was a decent book but yea I definitely feel like Nate’s story is a bit of a let down at the end. But *spoiler* Loken got done dirty with end of the series he deserved better

[@peterga3658]

new video nice

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

THANKS 👏

[@Thyinternet]

The readers deserved better. Marty Stu the Poor Man’s Loken /Sigismund deserved much better than to siphon focus from his primarch and legion’s one book because his writer had a love affair with this character he was given free reign over. Mortarion and the Death Guard deserved better - I.e a full Chris Wraight treatment and Garro should’ve been handed to James to do whatever he wanted with in his own little sandbox next to Nick Kyme playing with his Vulkan doll until the end of time on his own time. James Swallow is great when it comes to MichaelBay grade action, description, and horror - but characterization, dialogue, motivation, psychological depth, subtlety, any kind of moral sophistication beyond a Star Wars like clash between light and darkness …forget it. But hey look that city just came to life and now it’s a monster and it’s attacking and it’s really scary because it’s the size of … well … a city. Aaaargh. Ugh.

[@joaogabrielsilvadarosa9734]

W H E N Y N N A R I ? !

[@GotrekGurnisson]

Loken deserved better

[@Leman.Russ.6thLegion]

HE DIED!.??????

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

YEA 😭

[@alejandrorp5160]

I thought that's precisely the point of grimdark. Also, stop cheapening sacrifice! Doing the right thing against all odds, against personal convenience, health, prestige. That's what's valuable! That's what makes them examples to live by. Garro nor Sanguinius nor Malcador should ever return.

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

I'm like 5 mins in and have no idea what the controversy is.

[@Serbinderbintine]

Engagement

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

HUZZAH

[@Paradoxe44]

Yeah we want that Legion of the Damned lead by Ferrus Manus with Garro, Rylanor and Loken

[@themcnair000]

opinion 3: Stormcast (please no)

[@DerGametastischeDude]

What? Horus betrayed the emperor? Didn't see that coming.... Video should be marked as a spoiler :-( /s

[@mushroommann100]

YESSS

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

WOOOOOOOO

[@sanguinius_yt]

Speaking of deserving better, Garviel Loken deserved better. Abnett dropped the ball imo

[@jamesthelamenter5464]

This exemplifies the problems with "modern" warhammer 40k and especially black library... The writers don't really seem to give a damn about the universe and the mythology of 40k and the horus heresy. It's Peak Lame and Gay.

[@andresperedo1275]

I did not like the last novella of Garro, it was very out of the blue. About the death of Loken, I imagine that a possibility is that Horus is beating the Emperor and Loken appears, and the Horus feels his humanity once again (instead of the Emperor), and the Emperor vanishes both of them outnof existence. We will know soon

[@wellhungindung]

Ummm...about Loken and those leaks...

[@alfieingrouille1528]

I dont care what anyone says mortarion is a cool charcater how is majorly misunderstood

[@dougjones3305]

Complainer... I dunno, i agree with most of your opinions. Night lords are just cool armor and Conrad was the only cool thing about them otherwise for the most part.

[@joshualanzafame6243]

At least Garro had a better death than Loken did. Fuckin Erebus. Worst thing he has done to date. Loken deserved better

[@Szminsky]

I hated it also… which actually makes it good, because that’s how it’s supposed to be in the grim dark.

[@angelotana3040]

I've been a bad boy to chrono......I apologize. Like a degenerative disease, or a potent strain of fungus, Chrono has grown on me at a horrifically fast rate. I was mean and I was wrong to judge you so harshly. My subscription feels like an empty gesture on my part, but it's added regardless, and I'll enjoy your future content at the ever-increasing pace it's currently being devoured

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

I'm not that taken with the guy because he believes in the emperor as a god, not the Imperial Truth. (Like, say, the Novamarines.) It's frustrating to see Guilliman in partiuclar treated like a god when he's one of the few characters who knows the truth and follows the Emperor despite knowing he isn't divine.

[@robinmiller1989]

nom nom nom

[@akumaking1]

So who thinks that “The End and the Death Vol 3” bombed harder than “The Marvels” or Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

Well it's not out yet so we'll see ALSO NO SPOILERS PLEASE

[@Warriorsoul101]

If I was in that throne room, things would've gone down differently

[@akumaking1]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary Chapter Master Valrak uploaded a video about the book a few hours before you today.

[@NightLordShadow]

Nightlords are cool and also trash.

[@ohnohe-man19]

Let’s go on first

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

VICTORY

[@bigcoliber4864]

I actually didnt like garro

[@rajukoley9249]

6th to comment.

[@livefromtheblacklibrary]

But first in my heart

[@rajukoley9249]

@@livefromtheblacklibrary I am first on that typhon short.

[@blumiu2426]

I think authors start with an idea, it sounds good, but they aren't willing to see it through because it would go into territory they aren't willing or theme of book would change. Because they are called Imperial "cults", cults are not religion, they are fanatics, so demonstrating actual faith seems contradictory. That may be clashing of Warhammer's themes and having to go into people actually believing in The Emperor as a god and demonstrate it genuinely. I'd rather believe the author can't relate to what the character is going through and so it comes off shallow instead of the lore/themes clashing with trying to add real dynamics. Most heroes, the good ones, die ingloriously while chaos gets a lot of plot armor. I don't think that's grimdark, it's just bad writing. And yes, Mortarion and others do get mishandled quite a bit. This is a reason why I don't like the lore so much because the writers are never on the same page and GW keeps the lore open as a scapegoat because they can't be bothered to be cohesive. This opens the door for all sorts of issues and not really allowing opportunities. If you can't trust the lore, you can't invest in it without blinding yourself to it's issues and the lore matters because GW is pushing it to matter and not just sell figurines. It is likely too late to bring back Garrow and it would only encourage other greater characters that died not in the best way or too similar to be redeemed as well. Like with amateur stories and bad writing, once you start removing stakes and adding deus exes all over the places, there are no stakes and anyone can come back for some reason at some point. As stated, GW does this randomly and lore is open enough to do it with a retcon, so not sure how much it matters.