When Did Sauron's Corruption Begin?

[@jaytucker7873]

Wow, at 27:10 Sauron says, "I can fix him!" Lol definitely worth gently directing the powers of destruction towards that like button!

[@blacksage2375]

Sauron… the ultimate power bottom!

[@valknut9648]

@@blacksage2375 Disgusting language.

[@claytonbarnett7084]

It's been a generation since I last read the Silmarillion, but I do recall two things: 1. In a physical fight, Sauron lost every time. 2. Another Maiar servant of Aule who went bad was later named Saruman. This seemed to reflect Tolkien's very deep seated distrust of mechanical things. Great episode. Thank you.

[@Makkaru112]

Several went bad that were from other Vala as well. Aulë himself is very pure. So much so he wanted to be like Eru and was even literally willing to destroy his creation which Eru honoured as such. They were wonderful in their own right. He set them aside and breathed life into them in such a way so they’d wake up in the future. He was the only Ainur to really be fully repentant. Eru was never angry. Wouldn’t make sense seeing as he is source consciousness LOVE vibration-highest of all. Eru just foresaw the story to play out in ARDA1. But there are still ARDA 2 and 3 to happen which are discussed in her recent NIENNA deep dive video.

[@LOSTKILLERDRAENEI]

Sauron really is the perfect example of 'Everyone is a hero in their own story'

[@beatleblev]

Perhaps Sauron's ability to shapeshift lasted only as long as his self deception that in all of the distasteful deeds he has done there was a noble motivation behind them to make Arda a better place. Once you hop on top of the temple of Melkor that you built, giving Manwe (and unbeknownst to him, yet beknownst to us, Eru) the double bird as you catch his lightning bolts while laughing it up, the illusion shatters, the blindfold comes off, and what last bit of original goodness he was made with died. Only the naked ugliness of his spirit remained when he got back home to Mordor, and there took up a form that resembled the master of his heart and Maia soul.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I hesitate to fathom the intricacies of the Ainuran experience, but the Fall of Numenor (villainous cackling, watery grave, and all) is guaranteed to be a critical moment in the psyche of any creature.

[@beatleblev]

@@GirlNextGondor I get the sense that when left alone, Sauron is a wanna-be atheist, or at least wants to believe that Eru is busy elsewhere and not paying any attention to him. It fits with his assumption that Manwe and the gang are cozy over in Aman and that anything goes in Middle Earth. Having the planet shapeshift underneath your feet quickly dispels that self deception.

[@istari0]

@@GirlNextGondor It takes "going down with the ship" to a whole new level!

[@Valdagast]

It's also the first time he sees Eru Illuvatar take a direct hand in creation. That's bound to impress.

[@Erik-um1zn]

Tolkien waffled back in forth a bit on the issue. The recently released "The Nature of Middle-earth" has quotes about how the Orcs of the East laughed at him and would not listen to him in his "fair" form he used to deceive the Elves. It indicates that he could not changes his shape quite so easily as he could during his battle with Luithian and Huan. Elsewhere, in Morgath's Ring, tolkien explains that fallen Maiar--referred to as unmiar--spent most of their native power in their physical forms to dominate and exert power over the physical substance of Arda. Only the greatest of this fallen spirits escaped this, like Morgoth and Sauron, but they too eventually succumbed to this phenomenon and became bound to their physical forms and were unable to create new ones when they were lost or destroyed. Sauron had the One Ring to help him aft

[@henrypaleveda7760]

I was not expecting the black blade as a bassist but I AM HERE FOR IT

[@danieldeclue1466]

I've always found it very interesting that after Sauron joined with him, morgoth's overall goal shifted from destruction, to total domination. My headcanon for this, is that while morgoth definitely used sauron, I think this had the knock-on effect of sauron's potent influence rubbing off on his master in a way. After all, Total Domination is a Sauron thing, not a morgoth thing. And yet, morgoth's ring says different. This in itself, could be an indication of just how potent and persuasive Sauron truly is, even to his own kind

[@matthiasarran270]

I would love to see a political drama of both Sauron and Gothmogs corruption and how they butted heads achieving Morgoths goals.

[@jacquiecotillard9699]

You could do it like Finnes’ Coriolanus or even the recent Macbeth adaptation with Denzel Washington - grounded in modern conflict without doing any allegory or super impressionistic and surreal

[@matthewdunham1689]

Gothmog doesn’t seem like the mastermind bad-guy to me. More like the crazed berserker enforcer of the lieutenants of Morgoth. I can see Sauron rolling his eyes at him but holding his tongue lest he end up on the receiving end of a flaming whip and a lightning sword. Not that Sauron could not have defeated Gothmog but why find out if you didn’t have to? He probably talked to Morgoth about how dumb Gothmog was when they were alone. Just a hunch that Balrogs weren’t strategic geniuses. I could be very wrong.

[@unnamedshadow1866]

There was no Drama. The song of Melkor in creation was so entrancing and beautiful to some Maiar, that many willingly ditched Eru Iluvitar that day to serve under him. Sauron very likely being among those. This is a corruption that started from the very first day. So can it be really called corruption? Just as there is Light, there must be Darkness.

[@singingunbound9705]

Who is Gothmog

[@matthewdunham1689]

@@singingunbound9705 Morgoth's other chief lieutenant, top Balrog.

[@estherandreasen366]

So it's said in the fall of gondolin that that Gothmog was in charge of the military but Sauron was the lieutenant. I'd like to assume that he takes care of more internal affairs. Pretty sure that means he was in charge of Evil HR. That makes me happy for some reason.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Gothmog: So then we SMASH it and BURN it and.... Morgoth: I AM ENTIRELY IN ALIGNMENT when do we start? Sauron: (muffled weeping)

[@zimmerwald1915]

By the time of the Fall of Gondolin, hadn't Sauron been sufficiently humbled by Luthien to hive off to making Taur-nu-Fuin worse for the rest of the Age? It would explain why Gothmog had such a free hand from the Nirnaeth through the Gondolin campaign.

[@Valdagast]

Does this mean Sauron is in charge of things like Sexual Harassment Training?

[@zimmerwald1915]

@@Valdagast Given Morgoth's reactions to Varda, Arien, and Luthien in turn, Sauron would surely see some virtue in sexual harassment training--if only to keep the boss's mind on-mission.

[@richtomchuk1584]

​@@ValdagastSauron - Compliance Officer That definitely fits.

[@Mith420420]

I really appreciate the amount of respect you show to the source material.

[@blacksage2375]

Lawful Evil in love with Chaotic Evil.

[@TerryDowne]

Morgoth's chief lieutenants fascinate me. I suppose they are all Maiar of varying degrees, but they are otherwise such a diverse group: Gothmog, Glaurung, Sauron, Draugluin, Thuringwethil, Boldog. I can just imagine them slinking around Angband, intriguing against one another for the master's favor. After seeing the fine job you've done on Sauron, I'd love it if you could tackle the others too, especially Thuringwethil, who seems to be the only female in Morgoth's court. What stories she could tell.

[@GirlNextGondor]

They're such a poisonous crew 💖I'd add Carcharoth, Langon, and Lungorthin to the mix, canonicity be damned. Sauron is definitely the most fleshed-out of the gang but surely the others deserve some attention.

[@Makkaru112]

@@GirlNextGondor I wrote a bunch about Thuringwethil by the way. Included in a larger story that honours Tolkien. Care to read it someday?

[@Makkaru112]

Did you know Gothmog is his son that he had when he metaphysically paired with Ulbandi?

[@Enerdhil]

Hey! What about Tevildo?!!🐈‍⬛

[@TerryDowne]

@@GirlNextGondor I had to look up Langon and Lungorthin, didn't know them before but they seem likely to be Maiar. I don't think Carcharoth is a Maia, though. He appears quite late in the story, he never speaks with words (that we know of) and he is said to be "of the brood of Draugluin," that is one of D's natural rather than supernatural descendants. Though perhaps more physically powerful than D, I see Carcharoth as inferior in natural order and intelligence. I think that the "dread spirit" within Carcharoth is more likely to be one of the inferior houseless or rebellious spirits of elves or men which Morgoth has subjected and imprisoned.

[@lipingrahman6648]

I have often wondered if the back story of Sauron was Tolkien's way of getting a dig into technocrats and the curious nature of scientists, whom Tolkien may have found as disturbingly impious. Sauron was curious, perfectionists, needing of order, and from there fell into evil.

[@estherandreasen366]

As an engineer and I guess a sub-creator in general I've always found it interesting how Tolkien presented like me. I completely understand the temptation to impiously direct things my own way, but I also seriously think that the desire for profection and improvement can be a really good thing. They are things he frequently disowned as at least somewhat evil. Pretty much all of the creators discussed in middle earth end up doing pretty dubious stuff at some point. Pardon my rambling, but I guess it hurts a little. (Edit for spelling)

[@Funkopotomis]

@@estherandreasen366 hey uh can we be chums before you go down the path of imposed perfection? I'd rather just be in the winning team ya know?

[@zimmerwald1915]

Hardly. To the extent Tolkien's characters speak to specific types, Saruman was Tolkien's dig at scientific reductionism, the people who break things to learn what they are (particle physicists, nuclear physicists, quantum physicists, etc.). Sauron was Tolkien's dig at *social reformers* who sought to mobilize state power for the improvement of the world (the Webbs, Bevan, Benn, Corbyn, etc.).

[@lipingrahman6648]

@@zimmerwald1915 Saruman too, yes. Though again I say dig, not a wholly condemnation, given how high he holds the elf smiths and the dwarfs and even the power of men of Numenor. Tolkien generally disliked much technology, yet it's clear that like all people that lived long and saw most of the 20th century was moved by the massive technological changes.

[@istari0]

@@estherandreasen366 I think Tolkien believed we didn't pay enough attention to the costs of the technology we were developing and the damage it could cause. While not a fan of technology, he did use the technology of his day.

[@jpbjoel]

Given that a % of Sauron-aware people in the general public think Sauron is an eyeball bobbing in the air, you could have called this video a _character rehab_! 😄 Great content as always, GNG!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you! And yes, I hope to spread the doctrine of PrettyBoy Sauron far and wide 😁

[@commissarkordoshky219]

"Prettyboy Sauron" Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd hear...@@GirlNextGondor

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@GirlNextGondor EXACTLY!!!

[@istari0]

"And after Melkor goes off to sulk, I mean makes a tactical retreat" 😂😂 "And don't pick fights with your little brother, his fiancée, and his unnervingly buff new friend from out of town" 🤣🤣 I am pleased to report that nothing fiery, icy (although it is below zero outside), or filled with wrath presented an obstacle to my clicking of the Like button.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Be he man or elf or brood of Morgoth, no one shall keep the squad from clicking the like button: so swear we all ⚔️

[@EriktheRed2023]

Your art choices are amazing. Alien, and yet at the same time primeval. Not to mention really cool and funny with the band at the end! 😆

[@hodgrix]

I clicked the link to that artist's tumblr (the band) and couldn't find the illustration! too iconic!

[@richtomchuk1584]

Yeah. I often listen to these in bed at night without watching the video. Might need to change that. Amazing art.

[@SophiesDriver]

28:51 HAHA!!!! GNG on drums. Yeah, you rock. The image is perfect! As usual, thanks for your wonderfully thought out, informed, insights. Much respect!

[@istari0]

Superb video! Right up there with your very best. I think it is most likely that Sauron/Mairon was Melkor's chief spy among the Valar and Maiar; his skill set would have made him an excellent fit for such a position. As such, he would have been perfectly positioned to let Melkor know that the Valar had let the guard down and were relaxing on Almaren and that was the time to return. But I don't think he would have remained a spy after the attack on the Two Lamps; as you say the Valar would have been much more alert afterwards and looking for traitors in their midst. I forget which book this is in but I remember reading some time ago that the original intent was the Melkor would be more of the "idea man," getting various things started on Arda, which Manwë and the other Valar would then finish. I think Sauron came to take that role on when he went over to the Dark Lord. Sauron was primarily responsible for figuring out how to implement the things Melkor/Morgoth wanted done. I can imagine Sauron sitting on his throne and a messenger from Utumno or Angband shows up, Sauron reads the missive, and goes "He wants me to do what?!" If Morgoth had not been defeated, I wonder what Sauron would have done if he realized that Morgoth was obsessed with destroying the world and that that would likely mean that Morgoth would eventually turn on all his servants, Sauron included.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad you enjoyed it! I stressed a little about doing the topic justice 😅 I find the suggestions of the dynamic between Melkor and Sauron -- one chaotic but undeniably innovative in his beginnings, the other orderly but perhaps just a touch neurotic -- very fun to contemplate. It has the potential for synergy but also serious conflict.

[@Enerdhil]

So, when do you think Mairon actually became a follower of Melkor? If he was spying for Melkor on Almaren, how did he contact Melkor without the other Ainur finding out about it?

[@_semih_]

​@@Enerdhil that's a good question 🤔

[@michaelman957]

Was not expecting that closing music and picture 🤣

[@rishiiyengar7701]

Superb. Precise, clear where you’re speculating and where the source material supports you.

[@sinthoras1917]

And in the end, it sounds like a Lovestory again

[@GirlNextGondor]

Romeo and Juliet, Tristan and Isolde, Orpheus and Eurydice... Sauron and the prospect of designing and implementing the Ultimate Bureaucracy 😂

[@fostermoody]

With his pathological need for order Sauron must've absolutely hated orcs, with their constant infighting and brutishness. The rings not working as intended, and then the fall of Numenor right when he had nearly mastered them must have vexed him terribly, having to go back to using Morgoth's blunt instruments to attain his goals.

[@Crabby303]

I always assumed Sauron was one of those who joined in Melkor's dissonance during the Great Music but maybe he was only a blow-in originally. No wonder the Balrogs weren't fans.

[@GirlNextGondor]

The Sauron v Gothmog rivalry must have been legendary. No wonder Sauron was so committed to proving himself 😂

[@istari0]

@@GirlNextGondor I think it would have been more of a brains vs brawn struggle. Gothmog was more formidable physically but Sauron probably outclassed him in most every other way.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

Plus he was hot Gothmog was probably crushing @@istari0

[@earlwajenberg]

@@GirlNextGondor - My take on it from a post on Quora: Gothmog was top Balrog under Morgoth, back in the First Age. He was a colleague of Sauron’s, not a servant. I can picture a nice old bar fight, back in the First Age, in the pub around the corner from Angband, if Sauron referred to Gothmog as his servant: Gothmog: “Say that again, pencil-pusher. Errand-boy.” Sauron: “Who’s second in command around here?” Gothmog: “Who’s got fists and whips?” Morgoth: “Sort it out between you. But both of you had better be at work tomorrow morning.”

[@_semih_]

​@@istari0 Gothmog was not physically more formidable than Sauron! This is nothing but a fan-fiction! Please show us a single text which saying any Balrog including Gothmog had a superioty to Sauron in any freaking topic! Tolkien *never* stated anything about Gothmog(or any other Balrog) had a muscular body and strength than Sauron or something like that. In fact Tolkien described Sauron has "a great strength of body" there is no any statement about Balrogs having a muscular body or their physical superiority to Sauron. Sauron was superior to the Balrogs in every topic in the Lore lol. He was more formidable in physical fights than any of the Balrogs. In Morgoth's Ring book Tolkien made it clear that all the Balrogs were lesser Maiar spirits than Sauron

[@valaraukar_595]

*casually opening KZbin after an already pleasureable and fulfilling day* and then this gem comes up in the feed

[@TerryDowne]

I really enjoyed this. As usual, you dove very deep into the sources and compared them intelligently. I had conjectured that Sauron had been corrupted sometime after the creation of Ea rather than in the beginning, it's interesting to see that you confirm my conjecture. His presence in Valinor in its earliest days opens all sorts of interesting possibilities.

[@jessmith7324]

Love this channel's low-key sarcasm lol

[@jacobsedlack1173]

For some reason when people talk about the Maiar as "children" of the Valar I get this picture in my head of Yavanna walking around the house carrying a picture of little Mairon and Aule hammering asteroids entitled "Building the Universe with Daddy" and lamenting where they went wrong. Meanwhile, Sauron is across the Sundering Sea sacking Ost-in-Edhel and crucifying Celebrimbor screaming at the top of his lungs "IT'S NOT A PHASE MOM! THIS IS WHO I AM! YOU NEED TO RESPECT MY CHOICES!"

[@zimmerwald1915]

Alas for Sauron, it turned out he was right and that it was not a phase.

[@neant2046]

It was a phase though - it’s just that the next phase was even worse 😂

[@Makkaru112]

Meanwhile they were all ageless outside of Eä… before the world was made. Their children come from the spiritual union of any of the Ainur. Or the metaphysical multidimensional copulation between Melian and Thingol who produced Lúthien herself. Which by the way: the whole of nature responded to her even more strongly than any of the Eldar which were one with nature in all ways. The literal plants beneath her feet would mend again in her wake. Winter would melt away etc.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Occasionally you hear references to Sauron's skill in industrialized agriculture and animal husbandry (the rich volcanic fields of Nurn, the custom-bred Fell Beasts, etc.) I've always thought it showed he must have paid *some* attention to Yavanna's teachings, deplorable though his application of them may have been. All of which is just to say, even bad Maiar must love their mommas 🤣

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

@@GirlNextGondor Come to think of it, Sauron's points in Handle Animal also definitely aligns with your "akin to Orome" theory. During this rewatch, I was struck by the peculiar horror of the idea that Sauron might have been aping Orome around Cuivienen (a detail that is explicit in canon, insofar as we accept _The Silmarillion);_ I'm not sure why that mental picture upsets me so much. It might just be because Orome feels like such an uncomplicated-ly _good_ Vala, one who doesn't prompt the same difficulties as Manwe or Aule.

[@silmearendil]

Thank you for this, I enjoyed your thoughts about Sauron and Melkor ❤

[@JCO2002]

So bright, such a nice voice. I like Tolkien's work, and all, but I mostly watch your videos because I love to listen to you talk about it.

[@mrsamaritan6881]

According to Tolkien, Melkor and Aule where meant to work together, with Melkor as a kind of "idea guy" and Aule in charge of actually make them work. Obviously this never happened, but having the most powerful Maiar in Aule's service work for him instead, lead to Sauron to basically serving this role for Melkor, although to a lesser degree of course. This is the meaning when Tolkien says: in all of Melkor works, Sauron had a hand in. Netting Sauron was a big win for Melkor and I don't imagine was simply a matter of chance on Melkor's part.

[@Makkaru112]

Actually Manwë was meant to be the other half. They are brothers. Melkor never finished anything. Manwë could. And to bring balance. Order and serenity.

[@Paolur]

Just wanted to say that this is now my favourite Tolkien channel on KZbin, you officially took the throne with this one. All hail the queen!

[@aaronbaron3155]

Always glad when the algorithm puts a video of yours up.😊

[@shanenolan5625]

Thank you, lexi . Iv been looking forward to this . ( sir Christopher lee voice) .

[@richtomchuk1584]

I love your analysis and look forward to every new video. A lot of the Tolkien-themed YT channels out there (not naming names) are just bad fanfic. Yours is by far the best because it's the most in-depth. Truly quality over quantity. And I'm still chuckling at Morgoth saying,"I'm a cloud." Nice one 😂

[@johns1625]

I was under the impression that he rebelled against the Valar right before or during the destruction of the Great Lamps, which means he was living in Almaren, not Aman. But when Sauron does obeisance to Eonwe, he commands Sauron to "return to Aman", which seems to say that Sauron had been to the undying lands in the far west before, when these did not exist when the lamps were destroyed. Not sure if this is an error or if I am reading too far into the "return to" part. Maybe Eonwe meant that as in "return to your true home" or something.

[@Enerdhil]

I agree with you. I think Mairon helped create Almaren and the Two Lamps, so he had knowledge of their construction and therefore had an idea how to destroy them. Also, I don't believe that Mairon helped build A man and then walked away from it to join Melkor. That's why Mairon's betraying the Valar by giving Melkor all the details about the Lamps and the great Feast makes the most sense to me. His reward would be a position as Lieutenant of Melkor's Army.

[@Video456325]

Great work as always!

[@GRWelsh7]

You are really good at this, GirlNextGondor! I always appreciate another deep diving Tolkien channel.

[@hipsterhunter4eva901]

Hey gng I just wanted to say that as a newer subscriber it was fun to see the announcement ahead of time. I was looking forward to this and of course you delivered!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Good to know! 😁 I'll try to give more heads-ups. Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Enerdhil]

Lexi, thank you for this wonderful deep-dive into the origin of Sauron.

[@allisonkreutzberg6079]

I love that you tackle hard topics! This video made my day ❤

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad you liked it!! 💖 The hard questions are the most fun to research (even if some of them are, in fact, unanswerable 😅)

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Happy New Year GNG. I liked most what you said about sauron and his reaction to the discord. I can see him humming along a little with the discord trying to understand the harmony, trying to harmonise. This seems like the road to corruption to me too. Thanks grat stuff as ever.

[@GirlNextGondor]

🥰

[@kaptenteo]

Thanks for another great video!

[@TheHoneyBadger-yh5vj]

May God bless you and your work young lady💜 I am extremely grateful to have found your channel 💜💜💜 respect from Croatia-europe 😇😇😇 btw. I love the artwork and the picture at the end is awesome 😎 👍👍👍🤗🤗🤗💜💜💜

[@Lauren.E.O]

Just discovered your channel. SO good!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

12:12 What a pyromaniac. All the wonders of evolution and a biosphere? Nah, let's keep molten rock blazing.

[@Rakhamon]

Happy new year! Love seeing a new video from you and this was fantastic as usual. In addition to all the great suggestions of sitcoms involving Morgoth's crew, I really want a show just about Sauron's whacky life in Tol-in-Gauroth, trying to wrangle a motley crew of werewolves and vampires. Heck, Sauron turns into both a bat and a wolf there for a moment in Beren and Luthien so that really must have been his goth phase. Also Thuringwethil needs more love.

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

Excellent video and gorgeous illustrations GNG!

[@geir8849]

Long time since I tuned in, but had to watch your take on Sauron. Brilliant😊

[@gganbp]

Another beautifully crafted video. There's a lot of things about the Legendarium that I find fascinating, but it's hard to synthesize all my thoughts into coherent theories and interpretations. Your video essays achieve what I want and even go beyond to interpretations I never would have thought of. Lovely work.

[@magicalgirlcoco]

Wonderful analysis as always! (Sorry I haven't caught up in on your videos in a while! But it seems like I have quite a few new ones to enjoy 👀)

[@garethmiguel]

That was a really interesting deep dive!

[@marcusrowan7212]

I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS MOMENT 🙏

[@ianmcgee9850]

You on the drums and Sauron as Jimmy Page is rad AF

[@herbgreen8492]

Quality work as always, well researched and the delivery is solid. Love the vids

[@flamingosedai1820]

Your videos are amazing!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you so much! 🥰

[@TerezatheTeacher]

Beautiful. Thank you.

[@robertherring9277]

Great video! You give the BEST summaries of Tolkien timelines! Your "down and dirty" histories are the best!

[@docopoper]

I love that end card! I'm guessing from left to right that's Truin, Maedhros, You, Sauron, and the last one is hard. They kind of look like Fingolfin to me, but knowing you I'd expect it to be Fëanor, except that Fëanor is usually drawn as wearing red. Though having said that, I've never seen Maedhros depicted in an outfit like that either.

[@danielstride198]

Left to Right are Turin, Finrod, GNG, Sauron, and Maglor.

[@sainiharika]

Sauron actually genuinely rooting for Morgoth is heartwarming ☺️ I hope I’m not the only one who feels this way. Very interesting video. It’s like connecting many dots n giving full story 🥹🥹🥹

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

I also agree how Sauron would be akin to Orome as well as Aule. Not just because his association with werewolves ( a counter element to Orome's hounds ) and his skill in creating traps as you have mentioned but also how the Vala he is associated with is one of the three Great Spirits who unlike the rest of their brethren didnt leave Middle Earth during the reign of Utumno. If we analyze this it becomes suprisingly fit on how Osse and Melian seems to be more connected to the nature of Middle Earth ( be it its birds or storms ) like their masters Ulmo and Yavanna. The one Vala I didnt mentioned is of course Orome and it wouldnt be suprising if he too had a servant which had strong bounds with Middle Earth or at least interest in it or in its people and harmony.

[@QuestionableObject]

I'm a personal fan of the gross oversimplification of Arda being a minecraft server with some very destructive moderator spats and a mostly afk server owner.

[@ProjectRedfoot]

2:56 I love the artwork, as always!

[@hodgrix]

I think it's very unlikely Sauron ever visited Valinor. He was overseeing Angband by that point, and Melkor was chained. I suppose he could have left Angband briefly after Melkor was released and sewing discord amongst the Noldor, but then again why would he? I remember being frustrated a while back at a video of Robert's (indeepgeek, love him still lol) where he mentioned Sauron must have known Gandalf back in Valinor. They may have known each other but in my estimation way back during the creation of Arda. Very much enjoyed this video Lexi!! Needed this deep dive

[@GirlNextGondor]

It's very hard to get reliable dates on when Angband was founded v Valinor... I agree that they must have at least known of each other at some point, but I found it very hard to come up with definite sequences and dates. Glad you enjoyed it! It was a pleasure to work on this one.

[@Makkaru112]

Deepgeek or indeepgeek? One of them did a great chat with CluelessFanGirl. Please give it a whirl.

[@hodgrix]

@@Makkaru112 indeepgeek

[@Thechezbailey]

Love the video, as always! Ive always been so interested in Sauron's unique ability to remain pretty as a servant of evil. I wonder if Morgoth saw it as useful, or if Sauron saw it as important.

[@hglundahl]

_"this is not a position you give to someone who can't afford to give it their full time and attention and still less to someone whose loyalty might still be in question"_ Pretty astute assessment.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

I would love to see a video from you elaborating on Tolkien’s views on evil and on morality in his works. In the constant debates between fans of sympathetic villains and fans of more classical villains I’ve often seen Sauron brought up as an example of a classic pure evil villain (ex The Closer Look’s video on pure evil villains). It’s fascinating that Tolkien doesn’t seem to see Sauron as necessarily pure evil, but he’s also far from a modern style sympathetic/agenda driven villain. The best metaphor I can relate for my own understanding of Tolkien’s depiction of evil is temperature. This might not make the most sense but bear with me; There is absolutely no where in the known universe with a temperature at or below absolute zero (in kelvin). There are places in space that are relatively close and man made spaces in labs that can get even closer, but unless and until literally all things cease to be there will never be anything that could measure at 0 degrees kelvin. And I think if you view goodness as similar to warmth, and “pure evil” as absolute 0, then there are points so close to 0 that no being could ever perceive any warmth/goodness from them, but for as long as the universe/Eru exists nothing can reach that true 0. Edit: also 5:26 had me cracking up

[@thomaslacroix6011]

What is lacking from the movies and probably the books too, is the idealized world Sauron wishes to create. We know very well his means are evil, and that he can't create good and beauty, at least not anymore, but we don't know what Sauron thinks he would achieve if he had power. It's easy to forget that Sauron's initial vision on how he would shape middle earth is certainly not Mordor run by orcs and other foul creatures. It's just what he was forced to use over time.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Your temperature analogy makes a lot of sense. Tolkien's view of Evil is that it is the drive to destroy. All creation owes to a benevolent creator, and in just being cannot be wholly evil because of that. (I think GNG mentions this somewhere, but sadly I can't place it.)

[@josephfisher426]

Sauron's conceptual origins (Tevildo in the earliest Beren and Luthien story) are in a third, older type: the generally malevolent but unreliable second-tier power, like Loki.

[@CandyChaos7]

Sauron see's all, hears all, and knows all... 😱

[@GirlNextGondor]

In that case he's probably chronically disappointed 😂no wonder he turned to evil!

[@CandyChaos7]

@@GirlNextGondor Indeed... *Sigh in relief* 😌Middle Earth is safe from harm. I'd suppose.

[@zenebean]

I draw no small amount of power from pretty boy Sauron fanart. Great job on this! I love the heavenly politics in the Similarion, especially the Mairon to Dark Lord pipeline

[@GirlNextGondor]

"Mairon to Dark Lord pipeline" 😂 I'm going to start finding excuses to use that. I am consistently awed and delighted (and sometimes quite embarrassed) by the Sauron fanart the Internet has blessed us with.

[@zenebean]

@@GirlNextGondor the internet is a beautiful yet dangerous place lol

[@TheBrothersArda]

Another great video though I won't lie Lexi this one definitely felt somewhat incomplete, looks like the best stuff was the bonus content for paying folks, so down the road gonna have to sign onto that. Hope all's well. I think the best theme about Sauron is how he literally personifies the road to hell proverb, and how he is in many ways the opposite of Melkor and yet is not too far off from being particularly similar in some ways.

[@wiskeeamazingdancer4964]

Great work, excellently presented. For once the mighty algorithm finds a gem.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Sauron's corruption began as soon as he started simping for Melkor. Then he fell even lower by simping for Galadriel (but we don't talk about that one). "He had already become evil, and therefore stupid"

[@GirlNextGondor]

^ underrated quote

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@GirlNextGondor Sauron got burned so bad he now knows what Gil-galad felt like

[@aaronbaron3155]

4:44 im actually glad he didnt write about how the maiar were corrupted. It was tough enough seeing the way the rest of arda degraded. It would have been incredibly interesting obviously learning more about the higher beings

[@bigsarge2085]

Interesting. Hero of his own tale.

[@AsterionH]

I love watching videos like these because my ADD brain doesn't have the patience to read all of Tolkien's publications.

[@GirlNextGondor]

You just gotta make it your special interest for a few decades; hyperfocus kicks in and suddenly you're an adult who's still a little unclear on things like personal finance and traffic laws, but can recite the Quenya and Sindarin names of all Finwe's descendants down to the 4th generation😂

[@IanHeins]

Nice work thanks

[@gronis9]

Great content!

[@larrykuenning5754]

(gently pushes Like button without wrath, burning, majesty, etc.)

[@GirlNextGondor]

A feat not even the mightiest of the Valar could accomplish, seemingly! 😆

[@robingile4301]

Maybe how the white wizard went to Shadow some time please. Your thoughts are succinct and profound. Always worth a second hearing.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you😊 I've been getting a lot of agitation about getting some Saruman content up; I'm definitely putting it on the list!

[@istari0]

@@GirlNextGondor Yes! You could do a whole video just on the relationship/rivalry between him and Gandalf!

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Yay! Watching now!

[@ashalley]

10:54 why did my mind think Melkor had a discord channel and somehow got his fellow Ainur to join 😅😂

[@Enerdhil]

Also, what was Sauron doing while Melkor was locked away in the Halls of Mandos for 3 Ages? I think he was the High Commander of Melkor's Army. I also think he was completely loyal to Melkor. If he wasn't, he would have created his own realm with Melkor's Orcs and Balrogs, which he didn't do. He spent that whole time fortifying Angband while growing and training Orcs. I think this time with the Orcs explains why they followed Sauron after the First Age ended.

[@Enkaptaton]

So I finally managed to leave the internet and start reading the book "Tolkien and Wagner: The Ring and Der Ring" I get a push message A new video by Girl next Gondor I will remain strong and continue to read. It is hard. I will not watch this video until I have reached page 50! Thank you for your attention

[@GirlNextGondor]

I approve this decision 👍

[@istari0]

Did you succeed in getting to page 50 first?

[@Enkaptaton]

@istari0 I am not there yet. English is not my first language and all English I did in the last 10 years is basically youtube. I am on page 35. It is totally worth it. It's on the same quality level as the GirlnextGondor videos.

[@sulljoh1]

I appreciate the distinction between the beginning of "the world," and the beginning of Arda. It's a distinction the Bible is vague on.

[@TarMody]

Within the framework of the Silmarillion's internal consistency, I evaluate this situation as follows. Since Sauron was not evil "in the beginning" (I take this as his creation) and his being brought to rule Angband was the latest time that he could have entered Melkor's service, the most likely period of his corruption may be: during the time when the Valar were on the island of Almaren. It is more likely that Sauron, after siding with Melkor, was in Almaren as a spy for Aulë, under the guise of serving him under the name Mairon. All possibilities can be united under this combination in the most consistent and holistic way. In my opinion, the expression "being of Valinor" in the relevant passage is intended to refer to its belonging to the Maia species, not to its geographical location. His presence in Valinor is in stark contrast to his rule over Angband. Galadriel's statement that she does not know a Maia named Aulëndil in Valinor's service is consistent with this situation. His turning to Melkor's tune during the performance of the Music of the Ainur should not be interpreted as a moment of siding with Melkor, but should be read as the underlying factor of his corruption.

[@davetruglia6576]

I really enjoy your videos! I speak a few languages and its great to hear you explain Tolkien's inventions.... both in language and tale. Keep on keeping on!

[@jameshumphrey2345]

The closing tableau suggests Sauron did in fact inhabit the physical form of Bret Michaels (with his Mouth shredding the double-neck SG). Pretty-Boy Sauron indeed!

[@waltonsmith7210]

Thanks for the video! This content is priceless. I actually thought the version of Sauron in the Rings of Power wasn't necessarily that bad, at least compared to the Eyeball. It was very nice to see him depicted as....just some guy.

[@thebaron2277]

Would you be able to do a video about the black numenoreans. I would really love to see your perspective on them and their complexities and maybe how they could potentially be redeemed.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'll see what I can do!

[@varyar77]

Okay, great and informative video as always BUT WHERE CAN WE GET THE OUTRO BAND PICTURE AS A DOWNLOAD?!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Oooh, not sure... you'd have to ask the (talented and endlessly accommodating) artist! mgcoco.tumblr.com/ She filled it with Easter eggs too. 🥚

[@Aquila1313]

From everything I’ve read, Aule seemed to have had the most Maia followers, as his toil required the most muscle metaphorically as well as physically. The various fire spirit Maia would have had intense involvement in the creation of Arda, but this activity would drop off quickly. In this I see first the Ballrogs coming over to Melkor. Then later as the finer work is brought toward completion, Sauron’s mind and purpose wanders to the one being whose plans always seem to work out well with little or no wasted time and effort. That’s what I come away with between my own understanding and your excellent research. Your scholarly takes are good listening.

[@Makkaru112]

Meanwhile Huan and Lúthien sent him packing alone. I have many reasons why gal could take him on his own not just by bringing up her uncles and so on. He feared her for many reasons.

[@_semih_]

Did you even read the lore? lol Sauron never feared Luthien or Huan. It was vice versa! Huan couldn't even stand against wolf-Sauron on the bridge and *fled in fear* lmao. It was only after Sauron got a temporary drowsiness from Luthien's dark magical cloak. Huan used this as an advantage and he grabbed wolf Sauron by his throat and pinned him down after a struggle. Without Luthien's help, Huan was not going to win. Plus, Huan had a plot armor by a Valar prophecy about he would be killed by the greatest werewolf ever so Sauron wasn't able to fulfil the criteria by shape shifting. It required a real werewolf. And for Luthien, she literally sh*t herself when the wolf-Sauron sprang upon her. The Lay of Leithian books describes that even Luthien's eyes were blackened out of fear and she fainted in terror and despair... lol The conclusion is; it was both Huan and Luthien who feared Sauron. They were just lucky

[@Makkaru112]

@@_semih_ she literally banished him. Threatened to send him to Morgoth without a body to protect himself. There are 25 books and I study them all including the letters and other related works of his scholarly friends.

[@Makkaru112]

@@_semih_ yeah. There are alot of things to consider for sure. Which is why I watch all the big channels. TheRedBook,GirlNextGondor, Tolkien Untangled, CluelessFanGirl etc! ❤️❤️❤️. Ontop of rereading and re listening to audio books all the time.

[@Makkaru112]

@@_semih_ plus it was also stated by Tolkien who Sauron feared. Heck. Even the Númenoreans themselves when they arrived to face Annatar in bodily form leading thousands behind him and they all ran away despite Sauron being there. he was daunted too. He never wanted to face them especially on the water where they defeat everyone full stop by Tolkiens own words.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

@@Makkaru112 Can you name a quote where it is said that Sauron feared facing Numenoreans or Luthien? I have quotes that suggests the otherwise so it should be good seeing them right?

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

Great video as always. A bit off out of topic maybe but this question is boggling my mind for a while, in the Parma Eldalamberon it is stated that it was impossible for any ship to bypass Valars enchantments when someone attempted to reach Valinor. If that is the case; what was Sauron planning in sending Numenoreans to Valinor, did he planned all that plan just for them to return empty handed? They wouldnt be slaughtered because they wouldnt reach the Valar and they wouldnt reach Valinor because enchantments were still up. Eventually they would return to Sauron with anger and frustration. Seemingly Numenor reached Valinor of course but how could this happen? If the statement in Parma Eldalamberon is outdated then when did the enchantment finished to work? I can understand why Numenoreans would still take this path given they are already fond of doing as much illogical deeds as possible in the hopes of achieving immortality. Sauron on the other hand remains mystery. This is of course becomes a question if we assume that Sauron knows the existence of such an enchantment in the first place but he was corrupting Numenor for decades and he should have known much of their secrets, history and especially their earlier attempts to reach immortality or at least the reasons why Numenoreans once considered it would be impossible to ''reach'' the land of immortality let alone gaining it since this would be in his best interest in finding ways to corrupt them. Sorry if it was a bit complicated but yeah

[@Enerdhil]

Interesting.🤔 I think the Enchanted Isles always remain enchanted until Aman is lifted out of Arda and placed in the stratosphere. Obviously, Ar-Pharazon was able to navigate all the way to the shores of Aman. The same goes for Eärendil and Tuor. I am assuming that Tuor was granted Elfhood and therefore was allowed to pass through the Enchanted Isles. The only thing that makes sense is that Eru Iluvatar permitted those ships to pass through the Enchantment without getting lost or stuck.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

@@Enerdhil Yeah but would Sauron know that Eru would let it? He wouldn’t. Did he really planned all that to only “expect” that Numenor would get to Valinor with blunt chance? Just imagine how disappointed and furious would Numenoreans become after sacrificing their own folk, emmase an entire armada just for them to return empty handed. And who would they blame for it? Sauron of course. Sauron is not one who would take such a risk. It is said that Earendil was able to venture into Valinor with the Silmaril and it becomes fit when you realize Silmarils had the power to break illusions as is proven earlier with Carcaroth being able to enter through Melians Girdle.

[@Enerdhil]

@@oguzhanenescetin5702 I see what you mean. I really think Sauron expected that Armada to be wiped out by the Valar. I think he wanted to set himself up as the new King of Numenor after Ar-Pharazon and his men were dead. That was his goal. Little did he know how feckless the Valar would prove to be, forcing Eru to get involved and his judgment to be the final outcome.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

@@EnerdhilThat seems to be a good explanation. We know that Sauron always believed in Valar being like him in nature ( as seen how he saw Istari as enforcers of Valars will and colonizers ) and Sauron seems to have a skill in understanding the desires of Men more than a regular Ainu since he always dealt with them. Sauron however always saw Men as a tool to accomplish his goals and didnt see them on par with elves ( as seen how he choosed to corrupt Gwaith i Mirdan before Numenor ) and if we assume that Sauron thought his beliefs would also be Valars belief; it would actually explain why he would believe that Valar would destroy them, seeing them as a threat. Sauron probably never understood how Valar were guardians of this World rather than Emperors. He was arrogant enough to believe that they were like him. But isn’t it said that Valar gave up the authority of Arda after Numenor landed on Valinor? They were like “ We are done here whatever happens happens “ and isn’t it the same time where Eru actually makes his first intervention? I always read it like it at least. Manwe’s decision in giving out his authority seems to be necessary for Eru to accept their prayer and intervene. Whereas it is specifically said that Valar gave out the authority of Arda at the same time when Ar Pharazon landed on Valinor. Thus not explaining how they would pass through the Isles if Eru made his first intervention AFTER they passed through the Isles?

[@Enerdhil]

@@oguzhanenescetin5702 The Enchanted Isles could be evidence of the Valar's incompetence. They made those Isles believing that the Isles would function as a kind of 🕸️ to keep ships away from Aman. Well, Guys, it didn't work. 😂

[@oudugan8676]

Brilliant!

[@RÅNÇIÐ]

That's not Sauron. That's Jari Mäenpää, lead singer and guitarist of the band Wintersun.

[@WaggaDaBagga]

Regarding Sauron, he is a Maia with shapeshifting abilities (the most powerful and strongest fire spirit of all fire spirits). Former name Mairon. He gained the knowledge of forging from Aule the blacksmith of Valinor. Aule is a Vala. But Mairon was secretly the "Chief's" lieutenant to Melkor(Vala), later Morgoth. Melkor was also the brother of Manwe, Lord of the Eagles. Balrog and orcs are made by Melkor. Melkor was part of Eru's song. But Melkor composed a song of his own. Mairon tricked Celebrimbor the elf smith as the spirit of gifts (Antar) and suggested that 16 rings of power be made.

[@jarrodcarver9001]

I saw the JoJo reference!

[@Chris-bv4ko]

Sauron seemed to have fallen pretty early on. As for the Balrog thing, my impression was that the Balrog's were weaker Maiar than Sauron and lacked his innate ability to shapeshift and had less raw physical power. The Balrogs may have also had less will power than Sauron so willingly allowed themselves to be fashioned in a shape pleasing to Morgoth and seemed equally pleased to just serve Morgoth in whatever way he wanted. I recall that in one draft of the creation of Balrogs, I believe Tolkien had stated that Morgoth made forms for the Balrogs some out of iron, some out of fire, and some out of fire and iron.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I tend to incline to the idea that their greater innate alignment with Morgoth's nature/will contributed to their being more 'fixed,' in terrible forms that echoed his. The (relative) complexity of Sauron's relationship with Morgoth might give him more 'flexibility,' as it were.

[@Valdagast]

Did Melko have his own Maiar? I mean, from the beginning?

[@tsuchan]

I'm not sure "not fundamentally evil" implies "fundamentally good".

[@GirlNextGondor]

I left some wiggle room for the 'Melkor can't help being created rebellious; it's all Eru's fault' apologists.

[@unnamedshadow1866]

I personally think that Sauron's corruption started all the way when Melkor AKA Morgoth tried to mess up with Eru Iluvitar's song. Since we know many other Maiar joined him into his song as well. Pretty sure Sauron was among them. Also Sauron has this perception that he's actually doing the right thing. So of course, he got entranced by Melkor's song. So much that he decided to sing along. And when Eru Iluvitar put Melkor in his place. Of couse, Sauron was offended. From that day on, he chose Melkor's side. And his hatred for Eru Iluvitar truly began. Sauron was meant to become a servant of Melkor. Because everything goes as Iluvitar envisions.

[@Makkaru112]

Mairon was with Aule and actually the longer any Ainur spent away from one another too long and or faced away from Eru too long they’d forget themselves, their purpose and quite literally everything else with their identity and any time they exert power from this point they lose more and more of it. Wild hey?

[@Archgeek0]

HEH, Turin on a black, _hilted_ guitar. Do you think it talks to him sometimes?