Give Me an Answer - Try Living Out Moral Relativism

[@cruelbritannia4056]

"Learn to doubt your doubts" That is absolutely genius. Thankyou.

[@boblarson7694]

"Learn to doubt your doubts" Wow, that's so brilliant....not!

[@JohnjOcampo]

​@@boblarson7694I've had doubts that were a farce, it makes complete sense except for the fool who's intellect can't catch up lol.

[@dorian9233]

I love it when people point out society dictates morality. Which society? Pol Pot? Hilter's? Idi Amin? People/society don't dictate morality. Good job Cliffe and Robert.

[@bonnie43uk]

No, those weren't decent societies where everyone was treated fairly Dorian. Most Western societies are pretty good... not perfect by any means.

[@pexuluiviti]

@@bonnie43uk and what are the basis or foundation of these societies morals or laws. The answer: Judeo/ Christian values.

[@bonnie43uk]

@@pexuluiviti I disagree Pex, certainly, Christianity played a significant part, things like forgiveness and kindness were very much part of what Jesus taught, I don't deny that, but all societies around the globe, long before Christianity had worked out that it's not a good idea to kill, or to steal from someone else.

[@bonnie43uk]

@@Crafty.Veteran.Survival It's not as simple as that Crafty, I'm looking at morality from a different perspective, we humans are social creatures, it's in our best interest to cooperate with one another, cooperation brings many benefits to us as a group. That's the essence of what I'm trying to say.. it's far more beneficial to us as a species to get on with eachother than it is to be hostile. Most, if not all sociologists would agree with that... it works in the animal kingdom with most species.

[@JohnWilliams-pk7ci]

Ok then which God dictates morality ??

[@InfoArtistJKatTheGoodInfoCafe]

"My wife of 37 years..." Adorable! God bless them!

[@faithsquare2752]

beautiful argument~ strong conviction of truths laid out~~

[@ikickrocksi]

Thank you Cliff ❤❤ I needed this as a reminder. Sometimes I feel guilty if I have doubt. Thank you for helping me with my walk with God and explaining it with love and respect.

[@westtide]

We would have no idea what arbitrary was without a back drop of stability.

[@paulwilfridhunt]

The Lord is our refuge and strength

[@bonnie43uk]

Hey Paul, good to see you on here. Would you say that torture is wrong? and why?

[@paulwilfridhunt]

bonnie43uk there can. There can be a time for it Tom.

[@bonnie43uk]

@@paulwilfridhunt would you say that torturing someone accused of witchcraft is wrong, as they used to do throughout Europe in the middle ages, would you call that wrong/immoral?

[@paulwilfridhunt]

bonnie43uk Let me say this to you Tom as my famous last words. If, when you die, that was the end of your life, then God wouldn’t need to destroy your soul hell. Hell is the only place where your soul can be destroyed. Man cannot destroy your soul Tom. Only God can do this. And presumably if it was going to be ok for your soul to roam around forever, God would allow this. However for whatever reason Tom, God in His wisdom disallows this and destroys those souls who rejected His offer, as you are doing, and disobeyed Him by being disobedient like you, unless by some miracle you should actually repent. Repentance in your case would require a 180 degree turn around Tom. Something I don’t think you can do. To be a believer requires 100% unquestioning obedience to God which sadly seems to be a impossibility for you Tom. Whereas the true believers are the complete antithesis of you. God says jump. And we say how high. And speaking of repentance Tom let me say this to you. Whilst Paul the apostle reacted favourably to God’s amazing encounter with him on the road to Damascus, it doesn’t mean that you would have done the same thing if it happened to you or to the Pharisees who jeered at Christ to come down off His Cross. But because I believe that it can be successfully argued from the scriptures that hell is the only place where God can destroy those souls that elected to unwisely not qualify for everlasting life, I do not see why God needs to torture souls as well for not accepting His offer of eternal life apart from those who are deserving of the punishment. It will be torture enough knowing that you threw your life way. Not just your life Tom. But Everlasting Life. And I would like to think that this is the reason why those in hell weep and gnash their teeth, giving a new meaning to the word regret. However the scriptures do tell us that not all that are noble will accept God’s offer, such as you Tom, and this lack of acceptance can manifest in a variety of ways inclusive of atheism and agnosticism, but nevertheless it can still be accompanied by a decent or the noble life which you seem to be leading. Also I suppose it could be conjectured that God is disallowing you from being able to believe in the obviousness of His existence, because if you got into the church, you could be such an argumentative disruptive type person, who like Satan eventually persuaded others to also rebel against God, and perhaps Tom you’d cause maybe so much havoc in the church that God is wisely keeping you out.

[@bonnie43uk]

@@paulwilfridhunt I'm trying to find the bit where you actually answered my question about whether it was moral to torture someone accused of witchcraft? I'll re-read it, i might have missed it.

[@dccrazy527]

I want to see more of Robert.

[@will95515]

same here

[@dccrazy527]

avilesw I want to hear more what he has to say. Very interesting points, moreover, sounds to me like both Cliffe and Steuart.

[@dougnunley6428]

I don't know how you do it God-bless you brothers in Christ

[@jediahlaplanche4334]

The questions I ask people when they say something like “what makes the miracles of the Bible different from the “miracles” of Greek teachings, Hinduism etc..” are “What made that miracle divine?” “What about that “miracle” proves that it was a supernatural event that took place?”

[@jediahlaplanche4334]

ManaJack most people I encounter usually don’t really know how to respond or cannot respond because they don’t know what makes them different.

[@qwaurk985]

A miracle by definition is a supernatural event.

[@Josiahministries]

The only miracle needed to prove christianity, is jesus's resurrection. Jesus predicted his own death/resurrection and backed it up by doing it. All other miracles just add to his credibility but the resurrection is what christianity is hinged on. As for other miracles, they could be possible (have to look into each one with details), but no other person in history resurrected himself like jesus did (there were copy cats after though)

[@ronaldluna6709]

@@Josiahministries that's a good response, what do you say about this Jediah?

[@GregChacon]

I really appreciate this bother's methodology of evangelism.

[@danielb.1567]

and what method did he use that you liked?

[@GregChacon]

Apologetical and how he dialogues with them.

[@davrocket5304]

Cliff is truly a man of God 🙏!

[@joviabel6947]

Seeing college students trying their best to rationalize their hypocrisy. Sam Harris does this but on a macro-scale.

[@jamesmagwenzi6058]

In order for you to say something is crooked or is not straight it means you know that there is something objectively straight. Simpler version of the entire video.

[@InfoArtistJKatTheGoodInfoCafe]

Glad you watched the entire video because Cliffe has so many nuggets to learn from. Glad you learned from Cliffe.

[@natileecosine1294]

My wife of 37 years , adorable ❤❤ love this please kindly pray for alanna & Natalee to come of darkness and into the light .

[@davidplummer2473]

Explaining how a car works doesn't mean there is no driver.

[@squibe_9610]

No one is talking about a car, silly comparison. We aren't talking about a physical thing. Philosophy and Science, don't go together

[@SchoolYourBrain]

Best dialogue I’ve seen from your channel so far

[@dookiebrains3824]

I always like to look at it like this.....what would you prefer, a world where humans are free to do literally whatever they want without any checks and balances, or a world where we we have laws and rules that govern our behavior and reduce the amount of horrible things we can do to each other. Humans are animals capable of great good and great bad, that is, we have the ability to help, encourage and kill, destroy. We are a mashup of all kinds kinds of emotions, from selfish to selfless, kind to malicious. Moral standards help keep the worse parts of our nature in check which ultimately helps foster a healthy, thriving society. Of course we arent perfect, thus, morality isnt perfect but a world where people *try* to do right by each other is a much better place to live in than one where people do whatever they want without consequence. Are humans not pleasure seeking animals? What gives us pleasure? Good health, wellbeing, food, achieving our life goals. We seek out the things that makes us feel good. Does getting stabbed feel good? Does seeing your loved one stabbed feel good? While morality can differ from people to people, one thing remains consistent is that humans are driven toward actions that make them feel good. We don't need an objective source to validate morality; it more conducive to a society seeking survival and happiness to respect your fellow man than it is to kill and destroy without consequence. Basicallh, Life is a little better when we all get along.

[@tieskedh]

Evolutionary thinking: It is great to have a group of rulers get along greatly. They need to have a clear distance from others. This can be race, a gender, or even an eye color. This difference can be used to suppress the other group. It is shown that having a common enemy binds. You can benefit your group, by limiting resources spent to the other. Even overcrowding will be tackled. And exploiting will even let you spend your time better. The only thing you need is a strong enough group, which can live peaceful together. Therefor, becoming woke is not the best thing, but encouraging racism and slavery is. So, to answer your question, we would be most happy if we were part of an ubermensch and followed Hitler's teaching. ------ Do note, this definitely is not my view.

[@tonyisnotdead]

if we are so horrible, there'd be nothing stopping us from being horrible. laws and rules don't exist in the real world. people stop other people from doing things, not abstract concepts written on paper and accepted by society

[@LordDirus007]

I like how Cliff just presents like he is a Professor of a College. He gives free Lectures on Ethics and the Importance of Christianity in Society. He makes the "Students" think. He challenges their world view. In the End he points them to Jesus Christ through reason and logic.

[@trumpbellend6717]

It is neither reasonable nor logical to think our moral status is the result of a talking snake convincing a rib woman and mud figurine man to eat a magic fruit against the wishes of an invisible God called Yahweh dear 🤭

[@GBNRicho]

​@@trumpbellend6717Yes, and it is far more logical and reasonable to believe that something came from nothing, matter and energy came from nothing, and life came from non-life. 😂

[@trumpbellend6717]

@@GBNRicho Lol who says "something came from nothing" ?? The first law of thermodynamics states that *energy cannot be created or destroyed* we also know that energy can be converted into matter. Therefore we know that matter and energy have always existed. Conversely we have ZERO evidence for the existence of ANY invisible magical being that interacts with our reality. Which of these seems the most likely.... Matter and energy have always .... "just existed" Or Matter and energy was created by a magical invisible being that has always ...... "just existed" Occam's Razor anyone ?? 🤔😂🤣

[@1flash3571]

@@trumpbellend6717 Then where have all the energy and matter came from? From nothing? If Big Bang happened, who created the Big Bang? How can a limited amount of energy expand to the size of a Universe? It is still expanding now as we are living our lives.

[@thepherm]

Thank you!

[@Ozzyman200]

Morality has always been a huge problem for apologists. Theists individually can be moral, but as yet they can't explain why any act is right or wrong through faith.

[@jayman1338]

Without a divine moral law giver, a society giving value to mankind is just relativism. The only real way to have moral objectivism is to have a divine moral law giver or else, and again, all that’s left is man’s opinion.

[@trumpbellend6717]

🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ?? If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍 The claim that theistic morality is somehow "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔

[@trumpbellend6717]

Nonsense "values" are subjective BY DEFINITION. The word "value" discribes a relationship of worth between a "valuer" and that which is "valued." When we discuss moral values WE are the "valuer" To a man dying of thirst and stranded in the midst of a vast desert a cup of water would hold immense incalculable "value" However to a man drowning in the midst of a vast lake the same cup of water would hold no "value" whatsoever. It is however possible to hold common values and make statements of objectivity, from with a pre determined subjective and arbitrarily concieved of framework. For example an old photo or memento of a lost loved one may hold real "intrinsic" value to the family and friends of said loved one. However once one leaves that specific subjective reference framework that same photo or memento may be something thats thrown in the bin without a second thought by others.

[@lenchochurrito5003]

almost thought that was stewart until he started talking .

[@BEASTatWAR]

Lol first time seeing cliffe wearing jeans looks out of place

[@paulwilfridhunt]

BEASTatWAR I was thinking that he’d look great in Levis jeans and jacket and denim blue shirt.

[@connorrhun]

Without God, morality is decided by the animal at the top of the food chain

[@1flash3571]

Nowdays, these young people who have been told all their lives to be Nice to others, and everybody gets trophy doesn't realize that the World isn't like that. That is a FANTASY. Those statements are should, and ought. Reality is IS. There is no should, and ought. Lots of young people can't relate to Reality due to the upbringing. Adults should be better and should teach Tolerance, and Responsibility instead of Being nice to others, and Everybody gets a trophy.

[@Svoboda1234]

14:04 that was Paley not Voltaire

[@j2mfp78]

Where's Tom with his usual "That student made a great point...blah blah blah."

[@bonnie43uk]

Heh, I need to watch the video first before I make my comment Julio. Hope you are well.

[@bonnie43uk]

Btw, I thought the guy with the white t shirt and baseball cap did make a great point concerning the golden rule in terms of morality, as he said, it's been around long before Christianity came into being, and has been used all over the world in societies to maintain harmony.

[@godislove363]

Guys don't invite Tom okay I used to speak with him for quite a while I still think of him and I still wish you would turn as her to Christ but we can't force him there has been many things said on this video I have said many things to him to plant seeds I know several of you guys have said things to try to plant seeds if he's not willing to be a willing part of soil to be planted like the rest of us had to be at one time with Christ we can't force ourselves on him as Christ can't force himself on us if you wants to live his life the way he chooses that is the free will God gives but what's not add to it was not give him the space the time to go task task is ended questions when he really isn't wanting answers I never mind questions if someone is truly searching for answers but he just wants a plane endless game and I is one will no longer play that game so guys don't even give him the time of day pray for him but I'll give him the time of day.

[@isanna6075]

@@godislove363 I agree Jacob. But, for the newer Christians who watch Cliffe's videos, watchmen have to combat him to protect the flock. It's the only reason I give him the time of day tbh. He's completely deluded or sold out to the devil.

[@bonnie43uk]

@@isanna6075 I don't think it's deluded to come to the conclusion that Gods are the construct of the human mind, as indeed is the concept of Gods nemesis the devil. Neither of these supernatural beings actually exist in the real world? We live in a world now where we can explain most things that people struggled to explain in years gone by, there is no supernatural agent that is looking down upon us, causing floods and earthquakes, .. we know how and why they occur.. we can explain them in the minutest detail, even predict to the nearest second when something like a total eclipse of the Sun will appear.

[@zeraphking1407]

Ask this kid to define love first.

[@zeraphking1407]

Why do I obey the golden rule?

[@ifunanya24]

It seems some believe we can get a physical sample (maybe in millilitres) of love 💖 🤗 - bottle it up and sell it.

[@bergalicious911]

I feel like it’s odd to speak about love in the sense that it benefits us biologically. While this is true, people do things to their extreme detriment for the same reason, making every human capable of love insane, because they sacrifice their time their effort their finances and even sometimes their own health for the sake of love. Meaning the only people that are really functional on the basis that they only do things that are beneficial to them physically are those incapable of it! Psychopaths, sociopaths, those that we literally classify as humanely dysfunctional

[@zeraphking1407]

So morality is determined by the justice system?

[@AR-ed8jp]

Oh gosh no. There are way too many justice systems. Who is to say which is superior? Every nation practices it differently

[@zeraphking1407]

@@AR-ed8jp Close. The fact that there are too many and every nation practices it differently is irrelevant. What if all the nations practiced it the same-which included slavery and genocide?

[@archonofvoid]

Someone link me full video

[@boglerun8444]

Faith requires no evidence....therefore how can you expect to convince someone that doesn't share your faith that your faith is a fact.

[@boltrooktwo]

You can’t have faith in something you have no evidence for, it would be impossible for the idea to even exist in your head. You don’t have proof in faith but you can have a lot of evidence.

[@Eagle-zl4gz]

Evidence

[@LordDirus007]

There is evidence though. Look up Anthony Flew a Renowned atheist. Look into the reason he abandoned Atheism. Life could not have came about through a random chain of events. It's Mathematically impossible. It's also Mathematically impossible for the Universe to be fine tuned in a way to support existence. You see atheism takes more faith. You're having faith into the multiverse theory with no evidence. Atheism hinges on the Multiverse Theory to explain the the mathematical impossibility of reality and life existing. If we live in a universe out of an infinite amount of universes, that can explain why we just happen to be in the universe that supports life and reality. That takes FAITH. I don't know why people think there isn't evidence that points to a Higher Power. The Fact that the Universe has a Beginning is enough Evidence for God. The more Logical Conclusion is that a Higher Power created existence.

[@LordDirus007]

There is evidence though. Look up Anthony Flew a Renowned atheist. Look into the reason he abandoned Atheism. Life could not have came about through a random chain of events. It's Mathematically impossible. It's also Mathematically impossible for the Universe to be fine tuned in a way to support existence. You see atheism takes more faith. You're having faith into the multiverse theory with no evidence. Atheism hinges on the Multiverse Theory to explain the the mathematical impossibility of reality and life existing. If we live in a universe out of an infinite amount of universes, that can explain why we just happen to be in the universe that supports life and reality. That takes FAITH. I don't know why people think there isn't evidence that points to a Higher Power. The Fact that the Universe has a Beginning is enough Evidence for God. The more Logical Conclusion is that a Higher Power created existence.

[@LordDirus007]

KZbin IS CENSORING ME

[@londonderrry]

But which "enemies" did Christ pray "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"? It is the same Jesus that refuses to pray for the world in John 17:9 when He prays "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. " Christ was paying for the sins of His elect people on the cross, and His prayers for their forgiveness are always successful.

[@bonnie43uk]

Wouldn't it be preferable though if we were responsible for our own sins rather than Jesus saying "I'll take that". I might even say it's immoral to take the punishment for someone else's sin. It doesn't remove that persons guilt or culpability for what he/she did. Or at least it shouldn't.

[@londonderrry]

@@bonnie43uk, All sins are ultimately offenses against God, so if the debt is owed to God, then what is unjust about God forgiving it? If the shopkeeper decides not to prosecute the shoplifter out of pity, then has the shopkeeper done an evil thing?

[@bonnie43uk]

@@londonderrry From the atheist perspective we are all responsible for our own actions, we know that actions have consequences. Let me give you this example regarding the shopkeeper, lets say a thief breaks in and steals all his stock, .. the thief is never caught, and years later he genuinely accepts Jesus as his savior and asks for forgiveness, the thief has gotten away with the crime against the shopkeeper.. what kind of justice is that?, no punishment for the thief, and no justice for the shopkeeper. But it gets even worse for the shopkeeper, he was a non-believer, he didn't see any credible evidence for God, so it wasn't something he gave much thought about, he devoted his life to serving his customers and being a good member of the community. Yet he did not accept Jesus as his savior. According to many Christians beliefs, the thief gets redemption, and the shopkeeper gets eternal hell. Do you see an issue here? To answer your question, the shopkeeper is well within his rights to not prosecute the thief if he doesn't want to, as you say, he may well be a very forgiving person. Of course he's not done an evil thing. I'll tell you what *would* be evil, if that shopkeeper caught the thief, and locked him in a torture chamber and subjected him to long term punishment. Can we both agree such a punishment would be seen as totally evil?

[@londonderrry]

@@bonnie43uk, Hi again. From the atheist perspective there is no such thing as an objective moral standard at all though... right? For it to be truly "objective", a universal moral standard that could divide right from wrong, would need to be apart from time and space and not subject to the subjective influences of being confined to "this world." In fact, all "objective truth" has to have an objective source. Truth comes only in the form on "propositions" and a proposition requires a mind. An infinite number of objective propositions requires an infinite mind that is outside of time and space. Regarding your own scenario, it's very useful. Seemingly we have a good man (the shopkeeper) and a bad man (the thief.) The fact is that both are wholly and totally depraved. The thief does both internal and external evil, while the shopkeeper confines himself to internal evil (wicked and depraved thoughts), but it doesn't really matter. Both are guilty of countless sins, which demand eternal torment in hell. Scripture says that "the plowing of the wicked, is sin" (Proverbs 21:4.) That is... when a man works all day long in the heat of the day in order to provide for his family, if he takes "pride" in it... it is sin. As I said previously, all sins are ultimately sins against God. Is it fair, that God loves some and hates others? Absolutely, because God only sees His people "in" the blood of His beloved son, which is the payment for their sins. There is nothing wrong with the shopkeeper forgiving one thief, while holding another "to account." As I stated earlier, if the debt is owed to God, and God pays the debt, then where is the injustice? No one can "accept Jesus as their Savior." Scripture says "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple" (Psalm 65:4.) You ask if if it "would be evil, if that shopkeeper caught the thief, and locked him in a torture chamber and subjected him to long term punishment." It would depend on what he stole... right? If he stole a vaccine that was the only hope for billions who were dying of a virus... or the location of a nuclear device that was about to go off, then what would you recommend? Again, all sin is ultimately an act of rebellion against a thrice holy God, who is of purer eyes than to behold evil. Comparing a sinful act against a fallen creature, as opposed to a righteous spirit, is apples and oranges.

[@bonnie43uk]

@@londonderrry I don't believe in some kind of 'objective higher moral standard that comes from above. It's well within our capability as thinking human beings with rational minds to figure out what is good for us as a society, and what is not good for us. Reading down your reply, you say we are all guilty of sin ( wrongdoing), I agree, none of us are perfect. The big difference between us seems to be that you don't seem to have an issue with any sentient being, being sent to a place of eternal damnation/torture to suffer forever. Whereas I find such a place abhorrent, even the very idea that a living creature being sent there for 5 minutes is horrific. There is no human judge worth his salt who would ever condemn a prisoner found guilty of a heinous crime to spend a day in such a place, yet you believe your "all loving" God is well within his rights to torture his creation for all of time and beyond. Any God who truly believes that his creation deserve such a punishment is an evil monster. Just out of curiosity, how would you describe an "all loving" God?

[@j2mfp78]

☝️👍🏻🙏

[@criticalthinker8007]

How do you know that miracles require a supernatural being or that a super natural being can produce miracles. That assertion still requires evidence. No where is it writen that Jesus believed in absolute morality. Whether Jesus existed, was but a man was divine was made up. his view on Morality is be definition subjective, it matters not his nature.

[@joelm6780]

How do animals learn morals? A pack animal sharing food, animals morning a loss of another dead animal, coming to the rescue of one of their own who is being attacked. Morality is simply a learned trait passed down during the evolutionary process to protect the group! It’s just that simple. As stated in every major university in the world!

[@matteuslucas4223]

So if another group came along and decided to kill you, because in their evolved opinion that's correct behaviour, there would be nothing objectively wrong with that? Are you saying all morality is just subjective?

[@joelm6780]

Yes that’s exactly it, what happened to neanderthal, what happened to homobregensis, morality grew with evolution. You can have any sociopath that wouldn’t hurt his wife or kids, but is still a serial killer. So he’s moral with his family but not his victims. Morality has nothing to do with religion, hence priests and ministers who molest children. You either have a standard of living or you don’t!

[@matteuslucas4223]

@@joelm6780 nobody said a person needs to be religious to be moral. Atheists can be good moral people. That's actually the point. Despite a person denying objective morality, most still behave morally. You say morality grew with evolution. I say you confuse ontology and epistemology. I argue there is a standard of objective morality grounded in God, whether a person beliefs in God or not. It is how we know good from evil. We get to know that objective morality through various means. Whether it being innate or a gradual discovery or a giving of the law. You say "how do animals learn morals". I argue that animals are not moral agents. When a lion kills a zebra, for example, the lion does not MURDER the zebra. Infanticide happens a lot among animals. Are they morally responsible? I think not. Think about the consequence of morality being just subjective. All morality would be just opinion. We could make all "evil" go away by collectively changing our minds! Do you really think there is no objective difference between good and evil? If someone steals something from you do you not say "that isn't fair"? Do you lock your doors at night?

[@joelm6780]

If morality is god given then why is there murder, rape ,stealing, etc.your playing tennis with out a net! Wouldn’t every person be born with god given morality, i believe it is a genetic code passed down through millions of years of evolution to keep the species , or animal group in a sustainable advantage. How on earth do you explain over 20 different hominid discoveries all over the earth, each with a ever expanding brain and genetic traits to further their existence, and each in a constant progression. This alone should give every religion a reality check, uc Berkeley archeological dept alone has enough fossil records to dismiss religion. I’m willing to change my mind if a god exists, if the evidence pointed in that direction, I doubt very much you could say the same, but still my evolution given morality teaches me to wish you to have a great day!! Stay safe my friend!

[@matteuslucas4223]

@@joelm6780 i think the answer to why there is evil, is because we have free will. We can override our conscience. There are other arguments why there is objective morality, for example arguments from intentionality. I was an atheist and a buddhist for 30+ years before coming to faith in Christ and I used to argue the same as you. So I just wanted to add imo the various arguments for the existence of God, objective morality and the ressurection of Jesus are really worth looking into seriously. Thanks for the conversation, I hope you have a great day :)

[@blumenkraft23]

God sent Gandhi to hell though didn't he?

[@bonnie43uk]

One of Cliffe's constant themes is implying that atheists believe in moral relativism, I don't know any atheists who think it's ok for a person to do bad things ie, rape, steal, cause unnecessary suffering etc. We know these things are wrong, not because there is a God looking down on us, we know they are wrong because we wouldn't want someone to do those type of things to us, we are social creatures, it's in our best interest to get on with eachother, we thrive and survive as a species if we cooperate. This also applies to most other animals, even the humble ant... the ant is a great example of what can be achieved by cooperation.

[@isanna6075]

Tom, the world is a total mess morally.

[@bonnie43uk]

@@isanna6075 Hi Isanna, I don't know what part of the world you live in, i think you are in the States, I'm here in the UK, I think if either of us looked out of our window, and saw a human being lying on the pavement, in some kind of distress we would go over and try and help that person, I can't think of many places where the mindset of someone would be to go over and rob that person, .. humans are social creatures, we overwhelmingly would rather help each other than steal from them. Maybe you live in a really deprived area where everyone is out for themselves. Or maybe you just have a really negative view of mankind. I think I asked you last time we spoke, which time period of our history do you think mankind was in a better place morally? Were we more moral 50 years ago, 500 years ago, 2000 years ago? I think our morals have improved quite a bit as we've gone through history.

[@bonnie43uk]

to dekclon solomon, thanks for your comment, unfortunately I can't reply to it, my notification is only letting my see the first sentence of your reply, and it wont allow me to reply, if you leave a comment under the actual video I should be able to read your entire comment.

[@isanna6075]

@@bonnie43uk We've been morally bankrupt from day one Tom. Nothing new there mate. We killed more people in the 20th century than all the others put together. But you already know that. I'm in London Tom so not far from you. If you think we're doing fine here then you're in cuckoo land, sorry. The only thing I hear when the lights go out at night are police sirens. Non stop. Knife crime is at epic proportions here. Don't you read the papers? Paedophilia is rampant. I'm not going to go on because it's so bloody obvious but you simply don't want to acknowledge it. What's helping someone who's in trouble got to with anything? Trust me, I'd be the first to help a little old lady who's being bullied by a gang of youths. But if you somehow think that negates my wicked sin nature, you're badly mistaken. My thought life captured on video and played to the world a few weeks later would prove it lol.

[@isanna6075]

@@saintpaulofyoutube4416 the battle with him begins again 👍

[@CJBlake-ym6ky]

Cliffe's thinking is wrong

[@JohnjOcampo]

False

[@know4y]

How so?

[@lawrenceeason8007]

Moral absolutes are inferior. They are fixed and cannot attend to both objective and subjective moral realities. Well being and situational ethics are superior

[@tomhorwat5313]

100% correct, I'd not heard the term "situational ethics" before. But that is a good way to explain it.

[@lawrenceeason8007]

Can you imagine a god that: 1. Kills all the babies/children/pregnant mothers/unborn/animals in Sodom 2. But spares Lot...saying he was righteous...a man who offered his 2 virgin daughters to a mob for a gang rape? A man who had sex with his daughters as well...Genesis 19:30-38. Lot was a sexual deviant and god thought he was righteous? That is a god who has his moral compass in a bit of a bind

[@pexuluiviti]

and gives you the conscience and freedom to voice your narrative or complaint.

[@lawrenceeason8007]

@@pexuluiviti not my point. But god will punish you for not being obedient to him correct? How much "freedom" is that?

[@JohnjOcampo]

​@@lawrenceeason8007doesn't matters if that's not your point, he exposed you with his point.

[@МыколаНетребко]

There is no ethical brilliance. If you live like Christ taught, like literally what he thought, you will be a door mat. Matt. 5:"39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." So, you don't resist when your children are being abused, when you are being abused, etc... How is this brilliant?

[@InfoArtistJKatTheGoodInfoCafe]

When you are determined to misunderstand and read out of context you are determined to be a fool. You wouldn't recognize brilliance if it slapped you in the face 🤣😂🤗

[@vinnyrac]

Actually the sermon on the mount is loaded with really bad practical advice. Jesus was no moral genius. Blessed are the Meek? Really? The world is overrun with meek people who are regularly exploited by the powerful. The only time the meek win is when they unite and rebel. So what Jesus the moral genius is advocating is a class society where plutocrats get to run roughshod over the weak and powerless. Blessed are the merciful? Sure, we can all understand the wisdom in showing mercy, but who would ascribe to the view that the allies should have shown mercy to the Nazi murderers of WWII? That was not instance of mercy; that was instance of eradicating a scourge on humanity. But the biggest problem I have with Jesus the moral genius is his empty but vain promise of blessings for those who are persecuted in his name. Christians don't live this, instead, they view every criticism leveled at their faith as an insult and a threat. Instead of remembering their teacher's promises most chrisitans when challenged on their beliefs flex their religious privilege muscle and shout "persecution." You can see this happening right now. As Covid rages across the country Evangelicals, Catholics and Orthodox Jews scoff at assembly restrictions and instead initiate law suits as if the health and lives of those who do not share their beliefs are of less importance. Of course, restrictions on meetings during a public health crisis have nothing to do with one's faith, yet, the most extreme among these adherents view them that way, and let jesus promises of blessings be damned, I suppose. It is so absolutely infuriating to listen to a guy like Knechtle spout this nonsense, and I'm happy that some of the students were able to hold their ground against him.

[@contextiscool7308]

Very interesting point. You may be confusing meek with gullible, though. I see meek as being humble and patient not naive/gullible. And I would propose the mercy Jesus speaks of wouldn’t apply when protecting people from murderers or murderous ideology. It’s quite hard to show mercy when you’re dead. As for persecution, I agree with you. I believe a lot of Christians prefer not to suffer and take offense too early rather than “turning the other cheek.” I also believe using law to protect your religious beliefs/private gatherings is a legitimate thing - especially when we have politicians, good and bad, putting forth rules that interfere with assembly and freedom. If people choose to gather, I believe there’s nothing wrong with that.

[@boltrooktwo]

You don’t seem to apply logic and reason when you consider moral systems, if people followed the morals in the sermon on the mount they would work beautifully. You can point to the bad conditions in the world and see that bad moral actions are contradicting the teachings in the sermon. Meek is not how you describe it, meek is a quality of having strength but not using it to dominate and steal from those that are weaker. If I was a meek kung fu master I wouldn’t go around beating everyone up because I was better at hand to hand combat I would meekly restrain myself. If there are hypocrites to a moral system it does not make the moral system wrong.

[@InfoArtistJKatTheGoodInfoCafe]

Actually, you are mistaken. If only you were as smart as you think you are but arrogance makes you a fool. 🤗

[@InfoArtistJKatTheGoodInfoCafe]

@@boltrooktwo Well said.