Seeing all these people so invested in hearing how Great our God is only makes me envy the people who listened to the sermons Jesus spoke! Man I can’t wait to be in his presence 😭✝️🤍
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
Is it great to permit the r a p e of a child if you can prevent it ?
@fruitfuI Жыл бұрын
@@jasonnoble7302God limited his own power to give us all a free will. If somebody rapes anyone, it’s not God’s fault. That’s like if I were to build a house and a couple of teens vandalized it. If you walked by the vandalized house and blamed be, the man who built it, that wouldn’t be fair? You’d blame the teens who did the terrible actions. Also, i see you very, very often in Cliffe’s video just calling them names and blaming God for all sorts of stuff. Why do this bro? If you don’t agree, that’s one thing, but don’t waste your energy on something that you don’t even believe in. God Bless and have a great day man
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@fruitfuI So the question is : Is it great to permit the r ape of a child if you can prevent it? I can change it to accommodate your reply 👍 Is it normative good to limited ones own power to permit the free will actions of a person who is r a p i n g a child ? I’m here because I was invited by Stewart and I enjoy the philosophical conversation. May science and reason enlighten you my man ⚛️🤙
@fruitfuI Жыл бұрын
@@jasonnoble7302 I’d say it is good to permit free will. Without it you wouldn’t typing your comment and I wouldn’t be typing mine. We would be mindless robots worshipping our creator. But great things like that come with a cost, and that cost is that not all humans think and act the same. You and I happen to be rational and intelligent beings, while others aren’t so lucky and end up committing terrible acts. These acts aren’t done in the will of God. Im going to make an analogy. Automobiles were created originally to help transport humans from one location to another safely and quickly. Some people abuse this power the same way some abuse free will and they end up drunk driving. They put others at risk for their own selfishness and stupidity. Should we ban or blame cars for this, or should we blame the drunk drivers? It’s a pretty simple concept, and I hope I answered your question. Have a good one and God Bless you! ✝️🙏🏻
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@fruitfuI PS No, I wouldn’t blame the guy who built the house. I would blame the kids who vandalized it. However, If the house builder claimed he doesn’t permit the vandalizing of any of his houses then he watches without taking any actions that he has the ability to in-act and stop the vandalizing of his house then yes I would blame the house builder
@holyrich0619 Жыл бұрын
I‘m Korean and I'm so grateful to God that i got to know pastor Cliffe through this channel. I've been watching his videos everyday with happiness and amazement from his wisdom the Holy spirit gives him. I wish i could really be there and meet him in person and learn how great our God is! ❤❤
@sanukatharul1497 Жыл бұрын
Amen!
@Whitlersbisket Жыл бұрын
💯 Absolutely
@michaelgallick4617 Жыл бұрын
I'm "really glad you found Pastor Cliffe!" Now you can learn and read the KJB and listened to someone who really has true faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ and believes 1000 percent!" With 🙏's and 💖!
@Whitlersbisket Жыл бұрын
@@michaelgallick4617 Awesome good to hear Michael. Any bible that speaks in your language and dialect to understand is a great start. The ESV and New King James Version are also very good in my opinion. All have the same message! Lord Jesus is King, Glory be to him! May God bless you and keep you, Amen!
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
Yabadabadoo!!!!
@MikroiMathites10 ай бұрын
Its outstanding how calm and smooth those debates were taking place back in 1997, it doesn't look like our manners are evolving over the years. Thank you Mr Cliffe for everything that you are doing! God bless you!
@kamkam9510 Жыл бұрын
I love you Cliffe as does Jesus!!!! You motivate me to want to be an evangelist
@coquiu3915 Жыл бұрын
I can’t seem to get enough of these videos. I absolutely love them! Cliffs has taught me so much. May God continue to use him.
@jesus_saves_from_hell_ Жыл бұрын
Peace in Christ! ✝️
@chriphenmoono3375 Жыл бұрын
Always enjoy the Classics
@JeremiahKidwell Жыл бұрын
Does anyone notice that the students back in the day seem a lot more thoughtful than the newer ones?
@CristOportunidad Жыл бұрын
Evil has been so normalized that people dont use solid arguments for their beliefs anymore, they just complain and excuse themselves from the imminent truth of Christ. We must still do our best to share the Good news to them too because they are also souls 😓
@JeremiahKidwell Жыл бұрын
@@CristOportunidad yes sir 😉
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@CristOportunidad So can you present strong, logical evidence proving a god exists? If not, can we assume you don't believe in a god (having realized you don't have a solid argument for that belief)? To me it feels ironic you'd even bring up the lack of solid arguments for beliefs. That's like _the theist thing._
@CristOportunidad Жыл бұрын
@@majm4606 Im sorry ive been real busy lately and didnt see this comment. Ive got 4 arguments for God: The Origin of the Universe, the Apparent Design of the Universe, the existence of Morality and the Authenticity of the Gospels. These are all complex and hard to resume in a comment but if you want to hear any of them ill try my best to explain them here
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@CristOportunidad 1. What evidence indicates the universe's origin was a god? Be specific. If you don't have that, then you don't know the cause of the universe so then why would you call it evidence of a god? 2. Same problem with the "design" of the universe. (Actually worse because you haven't demonstrated design. I often mention designed universes like Super Mario's where he can travel to and live in maybe 50% of his entire universe (not 100% because he can't jump to the top of the screen, there are limits to where he can go and live, but still extremely high). By contrast we can travel to and survive in less than 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003% of our universe. So to me the idea that our universe is designed feels laughably wrong.) 3. Baseless claims aren't evidence. So when the moral argument says (A) objective morality exists and (B) that if it exists it's best explained by a god, it's not evidence because those are just two baseless claims. Additionally we know morality was caused and enabled by evolution. * It caused instincts like empathy (because that was a fitness advantage). * It enabled learned morals like that beheading apostates is right (which a Muslim would say) or that it's wrong (which I would say, for different reasons). 4. What do you even mean by "authenticity" and why would that be evidence of a god? Let's cut to the chase: _provide any extrabiblical evidence whatsoever of Christ's resurrection._ (It's important that you actually try to find this evidence. So please do make an effort, so that you can learn firsthand that evidence of the most important claims of the Bible _doesn't exist._ If I just tell you, you'll ignore me. But if you try to find it yourself, you'll learn.)
@SpintowardsJesus Жыл бұрын
Great job Cliffe❤
@NewCreationInChrist896 Жыл бұрын
Amen. James 2:17 “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”
@stephenarchambo9076 Жыл бұрын
Incredibly insightful
@tadaskrivickas8409 Жыл бұрын
I respect you Cliff for doing good work and thinking clearly
@johnconnell5988 Жыл бұрын
This intro makes me so happy for some reason !😆 Cliffe your awesome Man
@alexandrepereira3902Ай бұрын
As always, awesome
@OurSavior-xr3yc Жыл бұрын
September Sabbath 🌸🕊🌸🕊🌸🕊🌸🕊🌸 it was so quiet I could hear the air a black and blue night sky except the foggy silvery moon a warm September Sabbath a sauna for the stars even through all worldly chaos God's Creation is Beautiful To See Praise God For His Holy Day Praise God For His Masterful Ways
@curiousgeorge555 Жыл бұрын
Cliffe Rocks!
@lifeinhd9218 Жыл бұрын
I appreciate your videos man.
@maramaxwell2687 Жыл бұрын
I wish he could do this today!
@michaelrobinson1059 Жыл бұрын
Faith without works is dead. We try to obey because we love Him. If we don't try, we don't love Him. Why is that so difficult to understand? These kids think they are so smart, but they are utter fools. And your right, we learn more every day about the world around us. What I find astounding I'd we have found more reason to believe in a creator, not less.
@katherinefuentes901 Жыл бұрын
Yes he wants us to prove our faith by our actions
@Daniel-gi1cy Жыл бұрын
It all starts with honesty, gotta have the common ground of truth and facing reality to find god
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@Daniel-gi1cy Which means ?
@DarksTavern Жыл бұрын
When it comes to salvation Ephesians 2:8-9 it's a Gift from God not of works. My life after salvation is that I should do good works not that I will. Ephesians 2:10. The big problem is when you mix the two you get a works based salvation which is what almost every religion in the world teaches be a good boy and get to heaven wrong only the blood of Jesus Christ alone can pay for our sins. He offers that payment as a free Gift. Romans 3:24 Last point our works do have a purpose after salvation it's for rewards in heaven.1 Corinthians 3:11-15
@DarksTavern Жыл бұрын
Faith without works is dead the context is for the twelve tribes not for Christians James 1:1 the majority of stuff that applies to us in this time period you'll find in Romans through Philemon. An example would be in the Garden of Eden we don't apply that to ourselves we can eat of any tree but there is something we can learn from that.
@austinrodarmer25 Жыл бұрын
Hey cliffe i appreciate your videos and you talking with the masses about our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus worked a good work within you!
@knxcholx7 ай бұрын
5:53 well, I have to say, this is the third time I've been stunned to see someone admit they believe it does not matter what you do in this life. You can commit any action you want
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
Wow you seriously think that because I recognise "morality" to be a cognitive determination relative to different goals and levels of understanding I can't make judgement about the superiority of one over another ?? 🤭😅🤣🤣 I completely understand that your desired goal is relative to your subjective perception of the nature/desires of the God Yarweh and others relative that of different subjective gods. Mine is relative to wellbeing and suffering and I can and indeed do "judge" this to be a superior moral goal. I don't give a hoot if the bible says Yahweh thinks the day of the week one picks sticks up on determine if you should face the death penalty SO WHAT ? 😡 I don't care if someone else thinks their God deems the eating of bacon immoral or not facing a specific direction and praying five time a day, again SO WHAT ?? The recognition that people have different opinions about the same subject doesn't make them all equally valid or useful dear. People have different relative and subjective perceptions of political ideologies does that mean I can't judge one to be superior to another ??
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
If YOU want to claim your particular god as the objective reference point for morality. You first have to demonstrate *objectively* that YOUR particular god EXISTS and is infact THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and *not merely the only true god in your subjective opinion* That he is "MORAL" ( what standard did you use to judge this ? ) Are all the other gods and denominations other than yours false and yours true If so prove it . otherwise you offer nothing but a *subjective opinion on morality* *CAN YOU DO THIS YES OR NO* ?? Please note if you are unwilling or unable to answer this basic question, then at least have the honesty to recognise the hypocrisy of your position.
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
No response as expected 🤫
@knxcholx5 ай бұрын
@@trumpbellend6717 this was two months ago sir, or ma'am. I'm not going to read your lengthy replies, number one. And number two, I won't entertain anyone's opinions that can't be respectful enough to not have a username like that. So, good day to you
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
@@knxcholx _"Two months ago"_ .... irrelevant dear, two months ago it was a new response yet you still didn't respond. 🤫 As for my _"username"_ if you wish to use that as an excuse to obfuscate your inability to address the content of my comments, then that's just fine. But anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty will like me understand the real reason you cite it. Anyway dear its clear that your not up to an honest discourse so I will move on and let you go back to your colouring book.
@jamespboykin Жыл бұрын
How does one live a hopless life. while going to a top university? How does one say there is no guidance or direction when they cant even pick out there classes without the guidance of said school?
@AlexanderTate. Жыл бұрын
Cliffe, I wish so much I could meet you on this side of eternity. But I guess I’ll have to wait till glory. But when I get there and adjusted I’ll be looking for you.
@nabukwe Жыл бұрын
Just FYI, Cliffe will be at UT Austin the week of Oct 23 (corner of E 21st and Speedway) and then at Texas State (at the Fighting Stallions Statue) two weeks after that. Bring your questions.
@rw3452 Жыл бұрын
The passionate guy at around 5:40 ish seemed to really be hurting about something. Strange he can't even talk about a 'what if'.
@Lunchladydoyle Жыл бұрын
Everyone I have met who is this adamant has a traumatic story in their past. You just have to listen to them without judgement and it comes out. Something hurt him bad and he is mad at the God he claims doesn’t exist for not protecting him.
@kingkayleb Жыл бұрын
Thats a big crowd, Cliffe
@SHADOWSCOOp28298 ай бұрын
My god my god is good 🙏🏼
@nabukwe Жыл бұрын
Just FYI, Cliffe will be at UT Austin the week of Oct 23 (corner of E 21st and Speedway) and then at Texas State (at the Fighting Stallions Statue) two weeks after that. Bring your questions.
@keepthechange2811 Жыл бұрын
That guy said he would entertain the concept of God even as a hypothetical! That BEYOND intellectual dishonesty. I really should be praying more for these
@keepthechange2811 Жыл бұрын
@Theo_Skeptomai How? Refusal of a simple thought experiment relevant to the subject matter. It's childish and dishonest. How are you not following? I'm starting to wonder if it's a genuine handicap.
@keepthechange2811 Жыл бұрын
@Theo_Skeptomai Yes that's right. Wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't. I was multitasking and trusted my words would post the way I typed them.
@keepthechange2811 Жыл бұрын
@Theo_Skeptomai My friend. When are you gonna acknowledge that Jesus is Lord? The Bible is historical and undefeated. Plus there's no religion supported therein. You take the same stance as God on many things. You'd be a good one for the fighting. What religion won't tell you is that Jesus is the only way. It's a finished work on our behalf. You gain everything.
@keepthechange2811 Жыл бұрын
@Theo_Skeptomai I'd just refer you to the historical knowledge of Jesus and or artifacts related. Shroud of Turin for example. Writing of the Han dynasty in 30 a.d. I'd use logic.
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
Jesus Returns The Purge Begins.
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
Cretin Sins.
@alyssac9640 Жыл бұрын
Is there anyone in here who got to know Jesus from one of the encounters with cliff?
@rachelwelch1 Жыл бұрын
I think about this when I watch his videos. There has to be people that have actually found God through him.
@NotDuncan Жыл бұрын
I just like listening to his answers before going into the Word
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Jesus indisputably existed TS, i've cited you references before, you sound as "scientific" as a flat earther......
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
Exactly my point@@Theo_Skeptomai, YOU use as much pseudo-"science" as a flat earther but fallaciously project your ignorance to me instead of defending your wv objectively true to reality
@katherinefuentes901 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomaithe only thing that is nonsense is those that say there is no God for we all know the truth that he exists cause he made his existence obvious to us
@blackhaze8233 Жыл бұрын
Without lies atheism dies
@boltrooktwo Жыл бұрын
Atheism is the delusional state that denies the witness history. They also behave as if they are moral authority god for everyone else with self-righteous judgements. Moral understanding is sanity and moral relativism is insanity. What Jesus define’s as moral aligns with conscience and intuition while having the most sane result in this reality by all comparisons. An atheist claims the harm or killing of others is something that violates value but have nothing intellectually to ground any human value.
@spooky6902 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomaiit means that he needs to repeat this mantra to make himself feel better about his silly beliefs. He never specifies exactly what he means because he knows it doesn't make sense.
@tersan5043 Жыл бұрын
Y’all realize you should copy down ONE response (and the point of the unbeliever) every episode you watch. You would have cliffs WHOLE script in a week or two. It HELPS SO MUCH talking to people now.
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
Really? “Cliffe says without God morality is relative” How does cliffe or you justify that claim ?
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
But...Cliffe never presents strong, logical evidence of a god. So you'd be left with a "script" that didn't address the fundamental reason none of us should believe in a god (our lack of evidence of a god).
@tersan5043 Жыл бұрын
@@jasonnoble7302 he explains moral relativity in EVERY video. It’s not rocket science…people just realize they’re in a trap and act like they can’t comprehend. If you have no God (higher authority than humanity) no one gets to tell you THEIR morality is “correct”. It’s THEIRS. Same goes for you. You have your morality. I have mine. Want society to define morality? Then yeah, gassing people is totally fine. Majority wins. Cliff isn’t even arguing for the existence of a biblical God most of the time. Just a higher power. His goal is getting people who don’t think supernatural is credible to understand their world is NOT defined by science alone. He’s easing them into a mindset where “science or bust” is suddenly not enough to explain the human experience.
@tersan5043 Жыл бұрын
@@majm4606 man, it’s like talking to the crowd. Cliffs “logical evidence” isn’t ABOUT God. It’s about the POSSIBILITY that God exists. Before He can talk God and Jesus and supernatural planning he’s got to massage peoples minds away from hiding behind “scientific evidence.” He explains in EVERY VIDEO that we measure life through multiple avenues besides scientific processes just fine. The second you mention God though, people act like they sleep on a chemistry set. Like science is all of a sudden their god. But we simply DONT live that way. Cliffs ideas force you to bounce “no God” up against “god” and then EXPLAIN why the POSSIBILITY of God is wrong. Most people just default back to “science” at that point realizing their argument isn’t about evidence but about their FEELINGS about some being in heaven somewhere challenging their perspective and having the audacity to HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.
@nabukwe Жыл бұрын
@@majm4606 Here are 14 pieces of evidence I've gathered from Cliffe's (and other sources) that evince the reasonableness of a God of some kind. Keep in mind these evidences do not necessarily point to the God of the Bible (as that's not the point), but merely SOME kind of God. 1. order and design point to an intelligent mind. 2. The Kalam Cosmological Argument - The beginning of the Universe points to something that created it. Everything that has a beginning has a cause. The best explanation is an uncaused cause. The previously held belief was that the Universe was eternal and static. This idea collapsed after Einstein’s general theory of relativity and astronomical observations from the 1920s-1940s. Today, the accepted view is that the Universe (time and space) began some 14 Billion years ago. 3. The anthropic principle. Life is balanced on a razor’s edge. There are so many finely tuned variables that are necessary for life on Earth, this points to something that is fine tuning the variables. For example: Higgs Vacuum Expectation Value Mass of the Up, Down, and Strange quarks Mass of the electron and neutrinos (sum) Electromagnetism coupling constant Strong nuclear force coupling constant Cosmological Constant Scalar fluctuation amplitude Q Baryon, dark matter mass per photon Entropy of the Universe Number of spacetime dimensions - 3 (space) + 1 If any of these variables were altered by the tiniest of amounts, no physical, interactive life of any kind could exist anywhere. Furthermore, the examples of fine tuning are so diverse and numerous that they are unlikely to disappear with any future advance of physics. “The odds of the initial low entropy state of the early universe obtaining by chance alone is 1 to 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 133.” - mathematician Sir Roger Penrose - Nobel laureate in physics (Oxford University) “The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life.” - Dr. Stephen Hawking, who shared the Nobel with Penrose. “A common sense interpretation of the facts suggest that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and….there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.” - Sir Fred Hoyle, English astronomer who coined the term Big Bang. Although an atheist, he ironically seemed to support the concept of the statistical improbability of life coming about by chance. “There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all…it seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the universe. The impression of design is overwhelming.” - Paul Davies, English theoretical physicist and cosmologist. “This is the most powerful evidence for the existence of God ever to come out of science.” - Robert Jastrow (Former head of NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies) 4. The amount of information densely packed into the DNA of a human cell demands an intelligent designer. Every time one is confronted with densely packed information, some designer is behind it. 5. Charles Darwin pointed out that if something is irreducibly complex, the whole idea of evolution by chance and fate falls apart. There are more than enough examples that are irreducibly complex as Michael Behe (biochemist at Lehigh Univ.) points out. Irreducible complexity shows that you cannot go from stage 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 because if one stage is missing, the next stage never happens, e.g. mousetrap can only work with wood, spring, hammer, latch, etc. as is with the human eye or a human cell. 6. The existence of moral absolutes. The only way you can have moral absolutes is if you have a moral lawgiver to create those absolutes in the first place. 7. Love. Our experience of love shows us there is more to the reality than simply matter and energy. There is an innate ability that humans have to genuinely care. 8. Rational mind. Our rational minds point to a rational God. Why? Because it is ridiculous to think that the rational comes from the non-rational or random. In 1883, Charles Darwin wrote a letter to a man named Mr. Graham. In the letter, he writes, “if it’s true that our minds are simply highly developed monkeys’ minds, why do we trust them to tell us the truth about reality. Would you trust the thoughts of a monkey?” In this letter, Darwin is struggling with epistemological nihilism. It’s far more reasonable to believe that our complex minds come from an even-more complicated and rational God than to think that it comes from randomness, irrational chance and fate. 9. Humans have an insatiable drive for meaning in life. The only way there can be meaning is if there was a God who created you for a purpose. If there is no God, life is ultimately meaningless. Similarly, humans have an insatiable drive for justice. The only way there can be absolute justice is if there is some kind of law-giver. Similarly, anthropology shows us that throughout history, people are insatiably religious with a drive for seeking some kind of God or gods. 10. The historical evidence of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not to mention the historical evidence of the miracles he performed in Palestine. 11. Life never comes from non-life. The origin of life from non-life points to something that created that life. 12. Medical evidences of NDEs / OBEs. Carefully documented and scientifically confirmed deaths of people from different cultures and religions. See “What’s After Life” by John Burke and “After” by Dr. Bruce Greyson. 13. The existence of evil; pure unadulterated evil. Its existence suggests a God of some kind. See “People of the Lie” by M. Scott Peck. 14. The Mathematical Argument for the reasonableness of God's existence. A) If God does not exist, the applicability of mathematics is just a happy coincidence. B) But the applicability of mathematics is not just a happy coincidence. C) Therefore, God exists.
@jabsonsofgod9653 Жыл бұрын
Your website contact page is down, and your email is not going through and there is no number listed for a contact on your website. Can you help?
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
When it’s said there’s evil in the world, it’s logically assumed moral good exists which logically assumes a moral law to differentiate good & evil, which logically assumes a moral law giver (the triune God); no moral law giver? => no moral law => no good => no evil =>no actual morality
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
Wow Rob You really got the atheists with that one buddy 🥱😴
@katherinefuentes901 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomaiit's our disobedience and rebellion against God
@katherinefuentes901 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai us disobeying God and allowed sin in the world is evil
@katherinefuentes901 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai no sin was not mandated by God he put his laws to show how sinful we people are and even today his laws still has an affect on us for sin is real and God is real no matter how hard we try to reject his truth he is the creator of life
@katherinefuentes901 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai the Bible and everything that is written in Thier is evidence of God's existence for all scripture is inspired by God as 1st Timothy 1 verse 21
@mickqQ Жыл бұрын
I would love to know what standard Cliff uses to determine wether or not God is good?
@mickqQ Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Yeah.. Or just assume a priori that God is moral, because that’s the way he defines God
@nabukwe Жыл бұрын
Cliffe answered that question in one of the other videos. He basically said, "you're right. Based on the evidence of God's existence alone, we have no way of knowing whether God is good or evil. It takes further evidence to glean that." So because humans are finite there is NO way we're going to figure God out. God has to reveal himself, herself, itself, themselves. So we move to step 2, which is Jesus Christ, who claimed to reveal God accurately. Ok, who cares? Lots of people claim to reveal God. Then the question becomes does the evidence of the way Jesus lived, how he treated people, what he taught, how he died, and most importantly, how 3 days later, he rose from the dead, point to Jesus being unreliable or reliable. And the overwhelming evidence points to Jesus' trustworthiness and reliability. So the formula is 1. massive evidence points to God's existence. Ok, now what. So what? Who is this God? 2. Jesus comes into this world, claims to be God in human form, evinces his authority, and then explains what God is like. And based on Jesus, God is good. If God appears in front a person, claimed to be God, then performed not just one, but hundreds of miracles, then died and came back to life 3 days later, I can't imagine why a person would look at that kind of evidence and say, "Meh, no thanks." The sad thing is that 2000 years ago, that's precisely what happened. Many of the Jews who witnessed all this basically said, "No thanks. Not interested."
@mickqQ Жыл бұрын
@@nabukwe The ancient world is full of stories of people doing miracles. It’s full of stories of Gods doing this or that. Two things 1. I’m not convinced that any Gods are real, 2. I’m not convinced that Jesus was a God, preformed mir vies or retuned from the dead , because there is little evidence to convince me that is true. Or To put it another way The level of evidence that Jesus preformed miracles and retuned from the dead, is about the same level Joseph net an angel and had golden plates, perhaps less even. Are you are Mormon?
@paulwilfridhunt Жыл бұрын
Jesus said there is none good but God. I believe Jesus
@mickqQ Жыл бұрын
@@paulwilfridhunt Are you sure Jesus said that? Or How can you be sure Jesus said that?
@davidhughes37658 ай бұрын
❤🙏🙏
@LovesandCuddles Жыл бұрын
Why is Starter jacket guy so angry?
@JesusisGodandKingofkimgs Жыл бұрын
Have you ever lied, stolen, used God's name in vain, looked wuth lust? if so you need to repent today and Believe in Jesus Christ to save you from Hell and go to heaven instead
@angelhuezorocks Жыл бұрын
I love God and I love humor 15:00 😅
@michaelgallick4617 Жыл бұрын
"The dude knows something, and/or someone put everyone here!!!!" (We didn't just appear from nothing)!! Noone can refute this!! So, "we have proof that God created everything because we read it!! Don't you believe in the books you read from books in the University...right! "Circular reasoning!!" "Well said Pastor Cliffe!! Read John 3:16 in the KJB/KJV! "Get saved before it's too late!!" With 🙏's and 💖
@michaelrobinson1059 Жыл бұрын
I know right. No, we only believe the history books we want to believe. Even though the Bible is the mist scrutinized history book in history.
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
@@michaelrobinson1059 Lol the bible is NOT a "history" book dear 🤭😅🤣
@edstone76769 ай бұрын
I never want to be right. I want to be righteous with God. That means I always want to be in a agreement with God.
@AlphaAchilles Жыл бұрын
That first guy is really angry at a God he claims doesn’t exist. He’s going to have a rude awakening when he dies and he is face to face with the same God he denied.
@realtalkwithphil Жыл бұрын
😂😂😂 Hilarious to see my friend
@jackalsgate1146 Жыл бұрын
You're going to have a rude awakening when you come face to face with that mighty and terrible god Israel created and you Chrstns adopted.
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Your other arguments tend to be better. People can and often do feel emotions (love/hate/etc) for fictional characters. A decent example is many people hated King Joffrey, the tyrant child-king from Game of Thrones. I don't even know that we can argue people should never feel emotions for fictional characters, because that's sort of the point of a well-written story. (And that's why our feelings really have no place in discussing the topic of god; all we should care about is _truth,_ which is indicated by _evidence,_ which we don't have for gods.)
@samtussing3974 Жыл бұрын
Could you imagine if cliffe spoke like he did when he was young cliffe in today’s society 😂
@alphatreesurgery Жыл бұрын
I think you do a great job and I enjoy listening to you. I know you are part of the American society ,as I am, and that’s why your examples of slavery is the same rhetoric we are told regularly, and personally, I’m sick of hearing it. I am sick of hearing about black slavery. When Islam has enslaved white, and others at a much larger numbers, but who wants to mention that. If you’re going to mention slavery mention all of it.
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
Esp the ignorance you wilfully hold on to about "slavery" in OT @@Theo_Skeptomai
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Fully in context of the culture & topic of debt, yes, you clearly havent, assuming chattel slavery of the modern world instead of context of the time......May the triune, infallible, omniscient God bless you with faith in Him, not fallible man’s limited knowledge of theories.
@davethesid8960 Жыл бұрын
Cliffe just asserted the Catholic view on salvation by living (not dead) faith. Although there is some misunderstanding regarding the "wrath" of God.
@lilbasedboi Жыл бұрын
That’s dude in black was very upset.
@Tommyttm Жыл бұрын
Cliff needs to have a debate with a Muslim Expert & Buddhist expert! Since he TALK SO MUCH ABOUT RELIGION & LIFE in general.
@dentonhahn2907 Жыл бұрын
I have seen him on his channel talking with Muslims and Buddhist. I was curious why would that interest you?
@Rtgv1232 ай бұрын
Hes right. Morality is human construct . We develop via observing best and worst possible outcome taken by people or society . And people especially christaian tell god is an absolute moral standard , the same god that has a genocide count so huge only his favourite creation humans come second to him.
@BirdsRntReal Жыл бұрын
As a Christian my whole life there has been doubt. This doubt isn't the same it has evolved, as I learn grow and experience more every day than the last. I've come to a truth, God is indescribable. I don't think anyone is even attempting to describe God, we think we are but imagine the force responsible for everything I bet just imagining everything is impossible so if mathematics, physics, and chemistry can't account for existence period in any scale or model based on the fact stuff exists. Laws of Conservation say nothing is created or destroyed so at a fundamental level contain a paradox, that is assuming that laws of conversation are true, could be extreme energy and mass have a quantum uncertainty while be gravitationally impossible. That would account for a potential existence, but consciousness is another problem. Free will is up for debate, but I can assume there is difference in definitions. Some say choice is free will, but i ask what is choice? You order at a menu, theres options, you get the big mac because i get the big mac😂. Pay eat leave, choice right? Or maybe choice would be all that and some....what i mean is a redo basically that would actually be two outcomes which would suggest a real choice. One outcome means one choice and thats the one you got. 🎉
@michaelrobinson1059 Жыл бұрын
Why is that such a hard concept for these kids? If God doesn't exist, then morals are simply relative. It's very simple.
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
And the lie detector says “That’s a lie” Objective values and truths can exist without a God by definition. Therefore your claim “without God morality is necessarily relative” is %100 false
@bruhmoment8326 Жыл бұрын
Then how do we know that a truth and a value are objective? I really want to know
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@bruhmoment8326 You’re making a category error by asking a epistemological question of a ontological position
@michaelrobinson10595 ай бұрын
@AnthoniePerez.94 I know right. Evolution has been proven a dead end for at least 40 years. Not only thriry, but a stupid one. So what's the answer?
@justthev9074Ай бұрын
@@jasonnoble7302you just tried to deny the root of objective morality with an objective statement which is ultimately relative but you’re arguing it is objective. All major atheistic philosophers would disagree with you because you’re being inconsistent. You just said his statement was false but that’s relative in your subjective worldview but you just said it like it was objective. You can’t cherry pick bruv.
@TOMMYSURIA Жыл бұрын
So you need works to validate believe in Jesus?
@jimmythompson99586 күн бұрын
Real question. Is that balding dude Terence McKenna?
@NewCreationInChrist896 Жыл бұрын
Atheist choose to not believe in God, they cannot prove their theory “God doesn’t exist”, the arrogance is so annoying. Proverbs 16:18 “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.”
@NewCreationInChrist896 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Do you?
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
Is choosing to not believe in God an action ? Does that mean atheists work to not believe ?
@NewCreationInChrist896 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Yes, life is all about choices, choose eternal life ✝️ not eternal death.☠️
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@NewCreationInChrist896 Is choosing to not believe in God an action? Does that mean atheists work to not believe? I choose eternal life I do not choose eternal death I’m an atheist
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@NewCreationInChrist896 The only reliable way to know truth about reality is evidence. _When you ask believers for strong, logical evidence of a god, they NEVER present evidence._ Instead, they (A) ignore the question, (B) change the topic, (C) hurl insults/threats, or (D) repeat on the illogical arguments for god that exists. But of course bad logic _isn't evidence,_ it's just a mistaken argument. I mention this because we're considering an idea "god(s) exist". Knowing it's true requires evidence. We don't seem to know it's true (given the lack of evidence). _Therefore non-belief is the rational position, and we call that "atheism"._
@mystwolfe7791 Жыл бұрын
What makes these people think you stop sinning in Hell?
@tTtt-ho3tq Жыл бұрын
What makes you think you stop sinning in heaven?
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai What makes you think there is such a thing as sin? Objective morality>>>When it’s said there’s evil in the world, it’s logically assumed moral good exists which logically assumes a moral law to differentiate good & evil, which logically assumes a moral law giver (the triune God); no moral law giver? => no moral law => no good => no evil =>no actual morality in a godless worldview borne from a universe of chance/chaos/nothingness
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai I see you cant engage in the logic i present, so all you have is to repeat your subjective opinion with no objective foundation to substantiate your claims.....May the triune, infallible, omniscient God bless you with faith in Him, not fallible man’s limited knowledge of theories.
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@robmc120 Did you find it weird your explanation of "sin" _didn't involve sin?_ You changed topics to objective morality. Then you _didn't provide evidence of objective morality._ Either that or you understand the topic deeply, and you know you were making a dishonest argument. It's really one or the other. * morality means one's principles of right/wrong behavior. * good/evil are words that relate to a morality like that * subjective morality exists because people vary in what they consider right/wrong behavior * objective morality _we don't know_ exists, because nobody asked to prove it with evidence ever seems able to do so. (In fact ironically _if they even try_ they always make an argument related to our _feelings_ of right/wrong, _and feelings are what makes something subjective!_ ) Well _all morality is morality._ You pretending that only objective morality counts just means you have a wrong definition of morality (because google "morality definition". See how it matches my brief summary?) Now I assume you don't care enough about truth to read and address these problems. I assume that because if you cared about truth you probably wouldn't hold your position in the first place. After all, clearly we don't have evidence of gods or objective morals, and yet you probably believe in both. So all I can do is hope that _someday_ you start caring about truth. That means matching your beliefs to the evidence.
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@majm4606 "Did you find it weird your explanation of "sin" didn't involve sin?" I didnt need to explain sin, sin was understood for what it is, the q was does it exist, which was necessary to show there is objective morality, which i did logically. "Then you didn't provide evidence of objective morality." Read my first comment again, i followed the logic of the argumentation
@sirmayse1545 Жыл бұрын
Ask the Cowboys what they think about him 😂😅😂
@jackalsgate1146 Жыл бұрын
Cliffe - If morality is subjective then we can do whatever we want with no consequences. Response - And Chrstnty has been doing whatever they want, with no consequences, from the fifth century to the nineteenth century. The dominating religion in America has always been Chrstnty and most slave owners were Chrstn. Bishop Stephen Elliott, of Georgia, spoke to the critics of slavery by saying - “. . . for nearly a hundred years the English and American Churches have been striving to civilize and Christianize Western Africa, and with what result? Around Sierra Leone, and in the neighborhood of Cape Palmas, a few natives have been made Christians, and some nations have been partially civilized; but what a small number in comparison with the thousands, nay, I may say millions, who have learned the way to Heaven and who have been made to know their Savior through the means of African slavery . . ." To quote Frederick Douglas (ex- slave) he says of Chrstnty - “Between the Christianity of this land and of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference, so wide that to receive the one as good, pure, and holy, is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt, and wicked. To be the friend of the one is of necessity to be the enemy of the other. I love the pure, peaceable, and impartial Christ; I therefore hate the corrupt, slave-holding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land. Indeed, I can see no reason but the most deceitful one for calling the religion of this land Christianity . . ." A tree is known by its fruit; so, if your going to use the excuse that your standard of morality comes from Yahweh: then be that fruit.
@jackalsgate1146 Жыл бұрын
@@davidplummer2473 Yeah . . . I agree, the real Chrstns died out with Paul.
@davidplummer2473 Жыл бұрын
The tree is known by its fruit indeed. But it can't be known and therefore blamed for the fruit of some other tree. The people who used the Bible to justify slavery snd other atrocities were being disobedient to the Jesus and the Bible. They were not Christians. On the other hand, the atheists who murdered at least 150 million people in a span of just 74 years, more than the religious wars in all of human history, during the Communist Holocaust were not being the least bit disobedient to the teachings of Marx and Lenin in doing so. (And this body count is still piling up in Cuba, Vietnam, China, North Korea, etc.) Even if you don't buy that, they certainly weren't violating any tenets if atheism. I've been told by reliable sources in online conversations like this that atheism is not a faith, it is a non-faith, a mere lack of belief in anything supernatural. That being the case, the murder of 150 million (and counting since 1991) does not violate any tenet of the non-faith. Therefore atheists who rightly shudder at the horrors of Communism as much as any religious person did not get this or any scruple from atheism; they got elsewhere.
@jackalsgate1146 Жыл бұрын
@@davidplummer2473 Yeah . . . I agree, there are no Chrstns anymore, they all died out with the death of Paul.
@davidplummer2473 Жыл бұрын
@@jackalsgate1146 You must be agreeing with someone else because I don't agree that there are no Christians anymore. You're a master at avoiding points and offering nonsequiturs. But for giggles I'll show you how this is a reversible argument. There are no atheists anymore. They all died out with Nietszche.
@jackalsgate1146 Жыл бұрын
@@davidplummer2473 How about you ask me if I'm an atheist before assuming I'm an atheist. You did this in our last conversation and you're doing the same thing here. I believe in the One True God and it sure isn't Yahweh. And yes . . . true Christianity died out with Paul. It was Paul who constantly wrote to his churches, chastising them, when they would stray from the gospel. However . . . after his death, Christianity would fall by the wayside, and was not the same Chrstnty that Paul envisioned. You're the one using the excuse: well . . . those weren't real Chrstns. And you're correct, there are no real Chrstns anymore.
@OurSavior-xr3yc Жыл бұрын
Please folks pay attention and I know the majority of you will laugh. I don't care if even a few people pay attention and wake up, it's a wonderful thing. People gonna say we've always had storms or distribute that, but if you're paying attention at all the current events not only are we having major storms including flooding right in New York. I don't know if you've seen flooding how bad it was in New York. But then we've had floods all around the world. We've had hailstorms tornadoes all at once. Yes, some of those places do get hail or tornadoes and rare occasions in Europe. But everything's happening all at once. And some things are man-made, and some things are not. Something's gorgeous poses with his protection or the 4 winds. Great absolute evil and violence is on the rise, not the opposite economies are starting to fall, banks are starting to fall. There is gonna be chaos in the near future and if I'm when I get a bill like birth pangs like I keep saying what the Bible says we've had many earthquakes recently including some very large ones and tsunami's and other things, it's the intensity as well. It's not just the one here when there and how strong we are. It's how strongly are and how many things at once? Everything is coming at once, and it'll be much worse in the future. So wake up everyone, please. God wants to save you.
@mickqQ Жыл бұрын
Being a Christian as Cliff is, Makes you morally blind , you can’t say anything is right or wrong
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
👍
@nrs3772 Жыл бұрын
Not one smart phone not one student yelling in ignorant rants
@AlexanderTate. Жыл бұрын
I need to save this one for when I debate with atheists who hate Christianity.
@AlexanderTate. Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai I’m in several debate groups on Facebook.
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@AlexanderTate. I love to debate Christians who hate atheism Let’s go What does the God hypothesis predict ?
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@AlexanderTate. When someone is unconvinced by the lack of evidence of a god, do you say they, _"hate Christianity."_ ? Because the majority of atheists I've heard simply haven't ever heard strong, logical evidence of a god, so they don't know a god exists, and that's why they're non-believers. The reason they have conversations is often to help believers detach from this bad idea too. (Personally I tend to first give the theist a chance to present evidence (do you have some?) and then when they present (A) nothing or (B) an illogical argument, I explain that they too don't know a god exists and shouldn't believe. So far I've never heard (C) a believer surprisingly present strong, logical evidence of a god. But I suppose that's a remote possibility too. It's just never happened in conversations with literally 500+ different theists at this point.)
@AlexanderTate. Жыл бұрын
@@majm4606 maybe not all Atheists “hate” Christianity but the ones in the debate groups I’m in do. They are very open about it. But the transcendental arguments for God destroys all atheists
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@AlexanderTate. We’re waiting 🤷♂️ Give the argument
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
It's called Warmongering.
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
It won't save you
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
Gods definition of Sin Cesare Borgia kjv 1507
@user-ch4ex3yy4l Жыл бұрын
No attempts by orthodox believers to answer my question? 8:57 Cliff says "how do I know God is good"? Only one way, God becomes man in Jesus and reveals that Gods character is good..." Honest, serious question: how did all the people in the world before that know that God is good? It as least seems un-loving perhaps to create countless people who would have no way of knowing God is good.
@user-ch4ex3yy4l Жыл бұрын
8:57 Cliff says "how do I know God is good"? Only one way, God becomes man in Jesus and reveals that Gods character is good..." Honest, serious question: how did all the people in the world before that know that God is good? It as least seems un-loving perhaps to create countless people who would have no way of knowing God is good.
@kristijanpavlovic8605 Жыл бұрын
Hi, I have to say that I don't believe the Bible or any other "holy" book has the right portrayal of God and His laws but only a partial one, and riddles with error and unloving teachings. I would agree that Jesus reveals that God is good, but not by his death or so called sacrifice, which is actually not the truth as God is far loving to make such a concept, but by the way he lived his life. Jesus, who is not God, but was in the state of At-One with God which we all can achieve, if we engage in a personal relationship with God through which we can receive a substance from God, God's Love which has the power to transform our soul and clear away the sin so we become perfect, was the example of how a person should live their life. Loving God and loving his brothers and sisters. Now as to the question of goodness of God, I feel there is much evidence that God is love. For one, love exists. Free will exists. We are capable of experiencing pleasure(physical, sexual, intellectual and spiritual), we have a universal playground to live and play(the universe), we can become parents. The laws of the universe are also loving, they allow for us to exists and to grow. We continue our existence after the physical life. There are many other things I could mention, but these are some that point to a loving God. But to your point, before Jesus came, the concept of God was not correct. He was the first one to realize who God really is, by having a persona relationship with Her, and therefore he experienced firsthand God's nature and character. That is why he confronted the religion at the time and that is why they ultimately killed him. It was a matter of money and power, which they were afraid of loosing.
@user-ch4ex3yy4l Жыл бұрын
@@kristijanpavlovic8605 Thanks for attempting to address my question. I am a believer, though, in the historical Jesus Christ. That he existed is almost 100% certain. That he rose from the dead - there is a lot of evicence for that. In addition to that I have personally encountered the Risin Christ. My question is concerning the Triune God. I don't believe He "realized who God really is" as you say. He was with the Father before God gave Him to us. He knew where He came from, Who He was and Why He was here. Also what His mission was. Where He was going etc. Scripture bears this all out.
@kristijanpavlovic8605 Жыл бұрын
@@user-ch4ex3yy4l I wrote a long comment but was deleted. If you want to know the real truth about God, I believe it can be found at the Divine Truth youtube channel. I wish you well, bye!
@merleanderson1975 Жыл бұрын
You see, cliff God has no problem in winning the war against the sin in this world. People do not have to be sent to Hell forever. God can win this war against sin by annihilation. Now this would be just. Being tortured through eternity is evil... Cliff if you tell me this is not evil then you're just as brain-dead as as all the other Christians on this topic... but cliff I appreciate in my deepest being for what you do. You truly are a saint and an excellent person who deserves the greatest amount of credibility that one person could give to the other... just a little misguided as most other Christians are on this topic... I might want to add that this topic is very critical because it does turn the world off to the truth of Jesus Christ, therefore isn't that what the devil really wants?
@DS-yo8dx Жыл бұрын
I think you’re forgetting the good news, that someone paid your debt for you and gave you a gift of eternal life in Heaven if you choose to believe in Him. Heaven is a physical place called the New Jerusalem and it will be perfect. Imagine the most beautiful place you have seen on Earth and it will be better than that. So yes, there is a reality of hell if you reject Jesus who is the Lord but more importantly you have the choice to accept the free gift of Heaven if you are born again by accepting Jesus. God is not evil but just and righteous. Therefore judgment is in His hands which can be understood through reading His word. Jesus lived a perfect life free of sin and gave His life so you and I could have the free gift of Heaven. There is no greater love than to lay down your life for a friend, this is what Jesus did for all of us while we were yet sinners. I don’t know of anyone else who would be killed for me while I never knew Him, loved Him, and most importantly committed wrongful acts against His Father’s laws. I will always be grateful for being saved by Jesus because God’s measure of righteousness is perfection, and I could never achieve perfection. No one except His Son Jesus could achieve perfection which proves He is God. Perhaps you are already saved, and know the Lord. In which case I would say it is necessary to discuss the full picture of eternity and the polarities of Heaven and hell. If both are not discussed we are not being honest in this dialogue. The devil does not want people to hear about hell because his greatest lie is that there is no punishment for our disobedience to God.
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Do you think you're a good person? Have you ever lied(Exodus 20:16)? looked at someone with lust(Exodus 20:14/Matthew 5:28))? used God's name in vain(Exodus 20:7)? These are just three of the commandments (Exodus 20), we all fall short (Romans 3:23) & defy the God who created the universe (Genesis 1:1). The wages of this sin is death, physically (Romans 6:23a) & eternally (Hebrews 9:27). If God judges you by His standard when you die? where will you go? Christ Jesus (John 1:1), the Son of God in the Triune Godhead (Matthew 28:19) was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit (God, see Matthew 28:19, 1:18 & Luke 1:35) to die for our sins (John 3:16/Romans 5:8/Romans 6:23b), taking the punishment we deserve on Himself freely(2 Corinthians 5:21). If you repent of your sins (turning away, not just saying sorry & playing the hypocrite going back to it) & trust in Jesus for our right standing with God (Mark 1:15), we are justified in God's sight, absolved of our sins (Isaiah 1:18), a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13).
@DS-yo8dx Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
@baheegm.1392 Жыл бұрын
These kids going to bow down to AI easily, so sad, end is very near !
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
Just because you don't have a good reason to believe in a god that doesn't mean others are as irrational as you and "bow down" to things. (But at least if people did bow down to AI, it would be to a _real thing that exists in reality._ It'd be something they could show you strong, logical evidence of. Unlike a god.)
@OurSavior-xr3yc Жыл бұрын
As far as cliff's comments in this old video I won't say anything although hes going back-and-forth and some of his beliefs since he makes the new videos, so hes evolved in weird ways over this 26 years got more importantly, what he says, and some things is not difficult. Including about eternal hell, but I won't get into that. Just people if you are really searching or if you already know scriptures but don't read them much. Read them, search them, let God do the Hoy spirit. Show you the truth of the scriptures. Don't listen to me, don't listen to cliff. It's good to me. I'll get to the point of view of course, but don't take things as gospel by men. Search it out for yourself. Should I self approved? Read your bibles style your history. Look at Earth science and so forth. And then pray and trust that the whole spirit leads you into the truth. What God wants you to know and let you know.
@faithsally Жыл бұрын
True Believer's in our Lord Jesus choose to believe in something better. it's asked/commanded to read the bible, to have an interest in him, and c-o-n-t-i-n-u-e to grow in the faith. really helps to clear-up a lot of questions peeps may have. it's also easy enough for a child to understand. the time is short for his return n hope everyone does take up his offer..why? cause he's your creator, he wants to get to know you, and he loves you..if he doesn't know you..how can he welcome you in his house..eternity is a l-o-n-g t-i-m-e to be wrong.
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
How can a child who God permits to be r a p e d understand God is good ?
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
Do baseless assertions constitute some form of rational argument in your world dear? 🤭
@amandanield5380 Жыл бұрын
To say god isn't just because he lets you go to hell is daft simply coz your ignoring the basic element that if you CHOSE to ignore God and you CHOSE to walk away from him and you CHOSE to disobey him then he will let you do that not because he hates you but because he loves you so much he wants you to have that freedom. BUT he tells you very clearly that if you CHOSE those things there is a consequence to it. just like if you were living with your earthly parents and you chose to disrespect and ignore and disobey them when they lay the ground rules for how you should behave when living with them they would have every right to kick you out of their house. its a CHOICE that is entirely in your own hands. the problem is we don't want to look in the mirror and say yes we were responsible for our bad decisions instead we stubbornly chose to point the finger at God and say "its your fault! you kicked me out into hell therefore you don't love me!" if your parents kick you out of their house that doesn't mean they don't love you it just means they aren't going to put up with your disrespect. and if you were to show them that you can be respectful to them and you are willing to submit to their rules then they will forgive you and let you back in but you must be consistent with that display of behavior. the difference between God and your earthly parents is your parents can't see if your being honest or not God can tell so you can't fake it with him. and again we don't like that coz we still want to be disobedient to him so we start to hate him and accuse him of being unfair. that's where we start to say "your not my God!...I don't have a God!..." then that turns into "God doesn't exist! and nothing you say or show me will change my mind!" and that there can be summed up in one word PRIDE. and that's why its the mother of all sins.
@JesusisGodandKingofkimgs Жыл бұрын
Have you ever lied, stolen, used God's name in vain, looked wuth lust? if so you need to repent today and Believe in Jesus Christ to save you from Hell and go to heaven instead
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
BELIEF is NOT *"CHOICE"* or a mere act of volition. Sure someone can pretend to believe anything but the things one actually believe are not something you choose they are an involuntary response to one's level of information and understanding of their environment. You are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that convinces. I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Anymore than you could right now "choose" to be convinced that God is not real or that the laws of gravity don't apply to you if you step off that cliff. Tell me could you genuinely "choose" to believe the internet does not exist and we are not having this discourse now ?? I'm talking about being CONVINCED of it dear not just pretending!! Give me an honest answer , could you right now "Choose" to believe in Thor or Zeus ??? 🤔 No of course not, for exactly the same reason I can't choose to believe in Yahweh. Now if I recieved some irrefutable knowledge or evidence then I would have to deny my own reasoning and senses. That what changes beliefs, not "choice" If you came home and found your spouse in bed with the neighbour, could you just "CHOOSE" to believe in his fidelity and go back downstairs to make him a nice cup of tea ?? 🤣😅🤣
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
Is it not YOU "Christians" that believes you are made on the image of a PERFECT omnipotent omniscient GOD ??? Dispite the latest studies revealing there are at least 2 trillion galaxies out there. With just our own galaxy alone contains upto 400 billion stars with who knows how many planets. Yet YOU think it was all created because a god wanted to have a relationship with little ol'e YOU. 😜 Now THATS what I call "PRIDE"
@mcoz6934 Жыл бұрын
💬 Dostievsky: "If there is no God, then ALL THINGS are permissable."
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
You present the false dichotomy that without YOUR SPECIFIC SUBJECTIVE GOD there can be no moral reference standard and all things somehow become permissable ( shakes head in disgust 🤬 ) this is not only false its *DEMONSTRABLY FALSE* Can you name me some countries or societies that regard murder, rape, theft, as moral and legal actions ??? No of course not, but why ? for according to your reasoning those societies that do not adhere to YOUR GODS moral dictates ( other religions, and the atheistic, secular ect ) should be examples of depravity and lawlessness, yet this is plainly NOT the case and It would be a demonstration of hubris to assert otherwise.
@bonnie43uk Жыл бұрын
I've never heard anyone apart from Cliffe use this argument that "you have your morality, and I have mine, it's all cool", i know he's giving the counter view to Objective Morality, but in reality, life is not like that. The vast majority of us are raised to know the basics of right and wrong from our parents, regardless of what culture or religion you happen to believe in. I've changed my view on various moral issues over the years as I got older and understood more. Example: I used to enjoy watching bullfighting video's as a young man, seeing the Matador risk his life against a raging bull, it was incredibly exciting, I now view it as particularly immoral, the bull is basically being tortured slowly by the Matador, and is being forced to act aggressively until it dies a painful death. This once popular sport in Spain is now viewed in that country with contempt by most Spaniards. Morals change sometimes when we view it from a different perspective.. like from the animals point of view. It's why we finally got around to banning fox hunting here in the UK. We had a similar sport here in the UK hundreds of years ago called Bear baiting where a wild bear would be tied to a pole and attacked by vicious dogs. Animal welfare is a big moral issue with most brits these days.
@bonnie43uk Жыл бұрын
@justingary5322 i think you're agreeing with me justin, that's good. it's immoral to torture animals for our pleasure isn't it?
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
"The vast majority of us are raised to know the basics of right and wrong from our parents" The problem comes for you when you refuse to acknowledge where your parent/their parents/ancestors grounded their morals in objectively, they didnt arbitrarily pull morals from nowhere, they got it from an authority, most likely the God's supernaturally prophetic fulfilled in reality (Romans 1:26-32/2 Timothy 4:3/Matthew 24:6/1 Corinthians 1:18), historically verified (archaeologically & anthropologically by Christians & non-Christians w/enemy/early/multiple attestation, internal consistency, embarrassing reports, etc.) & transcendentally/objectively moral (Exodus 20/Matthew 22:37-40) Holy Bible, as that would be the most consistent with reality, but you cant accept that, so you fulfill John 3:19. "I've changed my view on various moral issues over the years as I got older and understood more" Further showing your rebellion & lack of objective foundation to ground to truth in reality that shows objective morals or else meaninglessness. "I used to enjoy watching bullfighting video's as a young man, seeing the Matador risk his life against a raging bull, it was incredibly exciting, I now view it as particularly immoral, the bull is basically being tortured slowly by the Matador, and is being forced to act aggressively until it dies a painful death. This once popular sport in Spain is now viewed in that country with contempt by most Spaniards. Morals change sometimes when we view it from a different perspective.. like from the animals point of view. It's why we finally got around to banning fox hunting here in the UK." Showing you/Spaniards/uk didn't have all the information how the sport works, NOT that morals subjectively change. The omniscient God knows all so His morals are infallible/irrefutable as youve been impotent to respond in many a conversation, unable to refute Christianity factually & having no objective foundation HOW you KNOW anything as true to reality. Do you think you're a good person? Have you ever lied(Exodus 20:16)? looked at someone with lust(Exodus 20:14/Matthew 5:28))? used God's name in vain(Exodus 20:7)? These are just three of the commandments (Exodus 20), we all fall short (Romans 3:23) & defy the God who created the universe (Genesis 1:1). The wages of this sin is death, physically (Romans 6:23a) & eternally (Hebrews 9:27). If God judges you by His standard when you die? where will you go? Christ Jesus (John 1:1), the Son of God in the Triune Godhead (Matthew 28:19) was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit (God, see Matthew 28:19, 1:18 & Luke 1:35) to die for our sins (John 3:16/Romans 5:8/Romans 6:23b), taking the punishment we deserve on Himself freely(2 Corinthians 5:21). If you repent of your sins (turning away, not just saying sorry & playing the hypocrite going back to it) & trust in Jesus for our right standing with God (Mark 1:15), we are justified in God's sight, absolved of our sins (Isaiah 1:18), a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13). All other religions are works based, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth & the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6), no other religion claims that, please consider His unique, free offer of eternal life & a clean slate, transformed by the Holy Spirit (Romans 12:2).
@dentonhahn2907 Жыл бұрын
Hello friend! I agree animal cruelty is evil, the Bible also speaks to being a steward of God's creation, not to worship this world but care for it, it makes a clear distinction between humans and animals. As a farmer I find it is rather repulsive to euthanize a animal that is hurt to bad to recover, I believe it should be done swiftly and humanely as possible. But what I do not think is right, is comparing animals to humans in behavior or morality, there is a clear distinction. Man was made to be the caretaker and to have authority over animals. On morality, it is my observation that many if not every person thinks they are moral, and they think they each have a higher moral standard than everyone else, some even think they are morally superior to God. I think morality is taught, but I think it can be retraced to the judeo-christian teaching. The reason for morality is quickly disappearing in our culture, because there is no foundation for morality. Example, Grandfather worked hard to make a living, but the reason for why he worked had and helped his neighbor was not past on to the next generation, when Grandfather did so it was based on his understanding from the scripture thar we are called to love our neighbors and work hard so that we can help them and ourselves. All this notion of survival of the species was totally nonsense ,and still is if we are honest.
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@robmc120 Can you make an argument for that Rob ? Or is this reply to bonnie just your uninteresting platitudes of beliefs 🥱
@jackalsgate1146 Жыл бұрын
@@robmc120 Is it possible for you to say anything that's not utterly _______.? You - Spaniards didn't have all the information of how the sport of bull-fighting works; therefore, it's objective. Response - Bullfighting did not exist until the Spaniards (man) invented the sport; hence, they knew the workings of the sport they invented.
@theprogrammer8200 Жыл бұрын
14:43 -14:54 "The only reason that there is hell, is because human beings have chosen to do wrong actions that displays a wrong attitude towards God" -> You are wrong on this specific subject See Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" The everlasting fire(also called hell) is prepared for the devil and his angels. This makes your statement invalid and unbiblical. I hope that you see your mistake and are willing to correct it. God bless you Cliffe!
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
Hebrew scripture mentioned Yeshua 7000 times but never mentioned Cesare Jesus Borgia KJV not once he died in Italy not on the cross.
@bigburrito308 Жыл бұрын
For anybody willing to listen I believe I make some good points here and nobody so far has been able to address them. I would sincerely appreciate if somebody would try. I want to understand God but he seems evil. One of the things that I struggle with according to God's plan is that he actually will send people to hell. I don't think any eternity of punishment is equivalent to 80 years of sin. I think hell is literally the only place other than heaven where you can go after you die where you can finally say "I know the TRUTH and that I messed up with 100% certainty and there is no doubt in my mind anymore." If anything.... I think the cruel part about God is he does not let us know all of the truth before we die. I think being required to have Faith in a God that will not physically show himself and requires Spiritual stability instead...... Which isn't something we can prove...... Is it itself a very evil thing to expect people too just understand..... With the consequences of eternal punishment for ignorance. I think the most Evil thing that God can do is send somebody to hell instead of erasing their existence based off of an unwillingness to follow a God that they just can't trust. Personally I would rather be deleted from existence entirely if I hated God then choose to go to hell For eternity just so I can do what..... Tell God how mad I am? Nobody so far has given me a valid argument for why God chooses to punish somebody in eternal fire for eternity just for not being able to grasp that God is all good...... Rather than offering to erase their existence entirely. I would much rather God tell me " look you can't get into heaven so I'm going to erase you" then be told that I'm going to be tortured for eternity instead for not being a good little boy. This one line of thought is what is single-handedly keeping me from loving God and enjoying his presence fully. Instead I am riddled with fear over the absoluteness of God's character and the unchanging nature of his will. Basically if God creates you and you don't follow his will you're fucked. There is no asking for God to just simply take you out of the world you never wanted to be a part of in the first place. I cannot think that God is all good and loving if he does not give an eternity to repent for your sins. I don't get why God Couldn't just let there be a place like valhalla to exist for people who believe in it and want to go there..... Because after a certain amount of time people will get tired of it and say valhalla is really not the place I want to be for eternity if it truly isn't perfect. This would in turn bring people to follow the true God and then when they accept him into his heart.... They could go to heaven then. And if they want to stay in valhalla for all of eternity and it stays that way indefinitely...... Then who the hell are you to tell them they can't be there and they have to join the heavenly Kingdom of God...... Just let these fuckers be happy Instead God gives a variable amount of time allotted to each human on the Earth to make a decision about the eternal consequences of their reality. I think that is extremely fucked up. We should be given an infinite amount of time to come to God because with that we would eventually all come to know the truth and what is the best for us because God is perfect. I struggle to think that there is anything that can define God as perfect if God is the one defining it himself........ If humans cannot live morally without God then how can God live morally without his own God.... How come humans are not allowed to self define morality for themselves but God can......... See I feel like a better God would define himself by eternal salvation to everybody who would believe in him....... Which he does...... But he should take away the limiting factor of the 90 years or less that you have to live on the Earth. This is why I believe I will go to hell 1 day even though I believe in God because I cannot come to terms with him sending a single person to hell..... Even Hitler...... Hitler had a personal belief and a reason for doing the things he did because the evidence of God was just not enough for him And God did not show Hitler enough love in his life to wear Hitler would like to reciprocate it. I feel like a lot of what people believe is shaped by their family and the culture they grow up in...... That is extremely difficult to break out of..... and God just expects every human to pass that test? Like maybe Hitler would have been the greatest evangelist in the world if God just came to him 1 day and was like "look man I love you and I love your paintings." But God didn't do that..... Instead he remains a mystery to us And let us get beaten and mocked for it and killed and martyred without doing anything...... Cliff at this point I am severely frustrated with God and I am literally so in love with my sin of smoking weed that when I pray for it I am scared that I am not sincere ......because I Want to believe that God is all good and all loving but an all loving God just cannot send anybody to hell For eternity. He doesn't even let the Holy Spirit be with somebody after they die if they go to hell so they literally cannot find it in their hearts to repent when they're there.... I just...... I want to hate God so bad because of this but I know that if I do I will go to hell..... It makes me feel like a slave and that's exactly what God wants..... Biblical slaves. Well I'll tell you what.... I would much rather be a slave to God than a slave to the demons that rule hell....... But in truth..... I actually wish I just never was created. I did not ask for this life or this conclusion it was all forced upon me...... And that in itself is evil. Is there any way I can change my thinking or still be saved God..... Because I do believe in God in the aspect that if I believe John 316 that I will go to heaven....... I just don't believe in God in the sense that he is perfect..... But with that in itself send me to hell? The skepticism I mean...... Because there will always be something that I don't know... Therefore I can never be a 100% certain about God. I would love some advice on how to deal with these thoughts. Thank you if anybody cares to reply.
@Aquines Жыл бұрын
I am amazed that nearly all the students just don’t want god to exist at all regardless
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@robertmitchell-tv5yf "all the students just don’t want something which is undetectable to all sensory and scientific investigation to exist" ! " Romans 1:18, all of God's creation is proof/detectable there is the triune God, His supernaturally prophetic fulfilled in reality (Romans 1:26-32/2 Timothy 4:3/Matthew 24:6/1 Corinthians 1:18), historically verified (archaeologically & anthropologically by Christians & non-Christians w/enemy/early/multiple attestation, internal consistency, embarrassing reports, etc.) & transcendentally/objectively moral (Exodus 20/Matthew 22:37-40) Holy Bible shows exactly who He is. Your wilful ignorance of the evidence doesnt negate that. May the triune, infallible, omniscient God bless you with faith in Him, not fallible man’s limited knowledge of theories.
@realtalkwithphil Жыл бұрын
😂 Like they’re trying so hard to runaway as fast as possible from the same God they claimed doesn’t exist.
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
I’m amazed you can read minds 😮
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@jasonnoble7302 im amazed you have one
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@robmc120 From your Christian worldview: God created me and you’re surprised I have a “mind” ? It sounds like you’re complaining to the Christian God for creating me from your worldview rob 🤷♂️
@styxbazz6099 Жыл бұрын
You said this Preacher Cliffe so I'm sorry but I would really emphasize that "Hell" really fundamental is a separation from god like fully. On earth God is always looking over you like his child even when you don't want him, he stick there just enough to make sure that he can give you that slight hand when absolutely needed. But once you die your decision has been made. If it was a decision that you didn't want to make god your god then you don't get the free ticket to live with him forever. At the end of the day it's either do you want to be with him forever or not. Now let me talk about hell. Since hell is a place outside of the realm of god. As in, think of heaven as a city or state or something, Hell is what is outside of those gates or borders. In Hell there is no presents of god, no comforter, no light from Jesus. You don't have a consciousness, there is nothing telling you that you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that. I mean it's complete and udder PANDAMONEM (which if you didn't know that's the name of the palace that satan and the fallen angels created in hell). Hell is a lawless place where there are no morals and no protection from God. Now to get to the justice of God. No matter if you are heaven bound or hell bound you have to take an account of all your sins. Being a just God the wrong that you did will be punished. Heaven vs Hell is not the punishment. Heaven is if you want to be with god forever, and Hell is if you don't. But the real judgment comes from God and what will happen to you to pay for the wrong that you did. So as someone who has sinned and still does sometimes rather knowingly or unknowingly, I'm completely aware that I will be punished for them but I'm so glad and hopeful that My father will watch over me the entire time. And I will get to live with him forever.
@merleanderson1975 Жыл бұрын
Hey cliff, I really love you you're my brother in Christ!... but let me tell you this question that the young man ask at 20 minutes time script, about eternal life in hell... You say this is just. This is a lie from the Devil. Why? I'm glad you ask me. The definition of just is righteous or the right thing to do. Eternity does not equal temporal. Forever does not equal one point in time and then stop. Logically, scientifically which means with knowledge, it is impossible for this to be just. One point in time does not equal eternal. So, please explain why eternity in hell can ever be just payment for temporary actions on this Earth. I think this is the biggest lie of the Christian faith. Please explain to me how it's not a big lie. Or better yet please explain to me how this is a just decision in a loving God's eyes.... Praise Jesus Our Savior, he did pay for our sins with his precious life, and shed his blood which was by being tortured to death!!! Thank you Cliff if I could hear back with a good answer I would appreciate it
@skhumalo3971 Жыл бұрын
Sinning against an infinitely holy God demands the most severest punishment - eternity in hell. That is why only an infinitely holy God (in the person of Jesus Christ) could pay the full price for the sins of the world. Not even an angel could pay that price. On the flip side, believing in the infinitely holy God gives eternal life not just temporal life.
@AreJay_ Жыл бұрын
How was not created because of our sins? Hell was created for Satan and disobedient angels
@Chrisstian111 Жыл бұрын
Jesus split time in half. Its the year 2023. 2023 years since the birth of Jesus....not any other person or event.
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
Imagine Putin conquered Earth and changed the calendar. Then 2023 years later someone argues Putin must've been a god because the calendar changed. Is that evidence Putin's a god? I feel like Christians know their own logic is terrible _when argued for literally any other topic,_ and yet here they are: arguing those same terrible arguments for god. Please be aware of the cognitive dissonance of your own position.
@Chrisstian111 Жыл бұрын
@@majm4606Well then life must be a waste of time if we can't eventually believe in something.
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@Chrisstian111 I've explained why you have no reason to believe in _ONE_ idea, so why are you accusing me of not believing _ALL_ ideas? Are you able to have a serious, adult conversation about truth? Because _truth is known by evidence,_ and so for every idea we must examine the evidence and decide if it's sufficient evidence to justify belief. For gods it isn't justified, because nobody has a logical argument for a god. (That's why all believers are stuck with arguments as bad as yours was; _arguments you yourself know aren't logical,_ because you wouldn't accept it for any other topic.)
@chrisstian5729 Жыл бұрын
@@majm4606 Ok sorry You know everything..... and the rest of us are just trying to catch up to where you are.
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
@@chrisstian5729 I've said _knowledge requires evidence._ Do you think I have evidence of every idea? If not, you're just behaving like a child again. Why? Why aren't you able to just have a reasonable, adult conversation about truth? Why be so dishonest?
@michaelszczys8316 Жыл бұрын
It's all about ' credibility ', and you have to admit Jesus' credibility was extremely high.
@majm4606 Жыл бұрын
...how? We don't have strong, logical evidence of a god or any of the supernatural claims about Jesus. The "miracles" Jesus is said to perform are even _ALL_ human-fakeable things. So it _shouldn't_ be credible.
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
How so ?
@lilbasedboi Жыл бұрын
Hopefully cliffe doesn’t talk about mLK as much these days because that dude was a turd
@JamesRichardWiley Жыл бұрын
Cliffe says: "The world makes more sense to me with a god." My comment: And not just any god Cliffe. It has to be a barbaric desert god named Yahweh who arranged for his son Yeshua to be crucified to forgive the sins of mankind whom he created perfect. No thank you. I don't need that. I am better than that.
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
Whats wrong with "barbaric" if there is no god? When it’s said there’s evil in the world, it’s logically assumed moral good exists which logically assumes a moral law to differentiate good & evil, which logically assumes a moral law giver (the triune God); no moral law giver? => no moral law => no good => no evil =>no actual morality in a godless worldview born from a universe of chance/chaos/nothingness "I am better than that." Better by what objective standard? A godless worldview has none, i'd love to discuss if you want to PRESENT one, but i havent been presented one consistent true to reality....May the triune, infallible, omniscient God bless you with faith in Him, not fallible man’s limited knowledge of theories.
@jackalsgate1146 Жыл бұрын
@@robmc120 You - What's wrong with barbaric if there is no god.? Response - You ever hear of the term: Reciprocal Argument.? It is when two people, with opposing arguments, respond to each other in similar ways. Examples - A Chrstn uses the Bible as a basis for his argument. Likewise . . . the opponent follows suit and uses the Bible to counter the Chrstn argument.
@tTtt-ho3tq Жыл бұрын
@@robmc1200:06
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@jackalsgate1146 "A Chrstn uses the Bible as a basis for his argument. Likewise . . . the opponent follows suit and uses the Bible to counter the Chrstn argument." But you havent used the Bible, youve fallaciously straw-manned the Bible to make it sound like you want, so your logic (predictably) fails. Since God exists, you are trying to use God (the ultimate standard FOR morality) to say God isnt moral, youre not even using logic at this point. If God doesnt exist, by what objective (transcendent of subjective opinion/feelings/exp) standard is He immoral? You are presuming your morals are higher when you have yet to prove you or your wv coehsive with reality, let alone right/wrong by any standard. But youre not interested in the logic, bc then you get to do what YOU want in life, not what your Creator commands of you, fulfilling John 3:19 of His infallible, supernaturally prophetic, objectively moral Word. May the triune, infallible, omniscient God bless you with faith in Him, not fallible man’s limited knowledge of theories.
@robmc120 Жыл бұрын
@@tTtt-ho3tq commentary would be great for the point your trying to make......refuting any of my arguments would be better...providing an objective standard for your worldview being cohesive with reality would be best. May the triune, infallible, omniscient God bless you with faith in Him, not fallible man’s limited knowledge of theories.
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
Killing people in his name is not morality Satan lied you fell for it
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
Why would God permit you to fall for Satans lies ?
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
@@jasonnoble7302 Cesare Borgia died in Italy not on the cross SATAN LIED TO YOU and you fell for it. What are you 2.
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
@@jasonnoble7302 You fell for it
@jasonnoble7302 Жыл бұрын
@@richardcrow3042 How so ?
@richardcrow3042 Жыл бұрын
@@Theo_Skeptomai Look in the mirror
@msmd3295 Жыл бұрын
One can easily “critique” one’s social order by its consequences. If the consequences end up being disastrous to human beings in general then a particular value can be rejected. In case Cliffe hasn’t noticed, every society has its own rules and expectations. That EVERY modern society AND every society in history. They’ve always had their own rules. Cliffe is looking for some absolute human value(s) which simply don’t exist. Never has. Societies choose which values work best for them. Always have. Take murder as an example. Within one society they may have in common the taking of innocent lives unacceptable mainly because you as an innocent person don’t want to be murdered. Everyone feels that way, so it becomes a standard. In other countries simply saying the wrong words could subject a person to being murdered even by the state (like Russia). If societies were not permitted to murder those who can’t conduct themselves in a civilized manner that would be opening the floodgates to murder all across the country because murders wouldn’t get equal treatment for the crimes they commit and it wouldn’t be justice for those who are murdered. Critiquing one’s society comes as time passes and one can see the consequences of past choices. Individuals do the same thing. Do we make better choices after the mistakes we’ve made? Hopefully. The fact those values are subject to change based upon new information MEANS values are not carved in stone and are universal.
@davidplummer2473 Жыл бұрын
"Do we make better choices after the mistakes we’ve made? Hopefully." If values are ultimately arbitrary, how would we ever know? Saying a choice is "better" presupposes there is (a) such a thing as better, and (b) we know what better is, which would require some sort of transcendent code by which to tell better from worse. Otherwise it's purely flavor-of-the-month arbitrary. "The fact those values are subject to change based upon new information MEANS values are not carved in stone and are universal." No. Your conclusion means only that "better" to you is just a "my truth/your truth" proposition. It does NOT mean there is not an actual transcendent morality to which these value changes might be trying to approximate. Running through your post is the unspoken presupposition that it matters whether something is disastrous for humanity, or in other words that human life actually has value. But if we are just accidental collections of molecules, the idea that human life has any value at all is just a secular fairy tale. A bunch of people getting together and agreeing to PRETEND that human life has value is not the same thing as human life actually having value. Instead, it's just make-believe, the very thing that's supposed to disqualify all religion as a viable worldview. Reducing morality to just so much mutual anthropological gaslighting totally strips it of its transformative power. It's like cutting down a tree and thinking the branches you like will remain floating in mid-air.
@msmd3295 Жыл бұрын
@@davidplummer2473 " It does NOT mean there is not an actual transcendent morality to which these value changes might be trying to approximate." Transcendent of what exactly? And who determines what those transcendent values are? That's partly my point. What is transcendent of the individual is one's native culture, one's society, the needs of society in order to sustain order in large social groups. Whether is be a neighborhood, a region, state or country. Every social group in order to avoid chaos has to have rules BECAUSE when you leave individuals to their own devices chaos reigns. The Israelis had different values and cultural expectations than the Egyptians. The battle SHOULD BE which values are most conducive to the preservation of the human species and one does NOT need the bible or biblical mandates to decide that. In respect to that, religion is too steeped in the supernatural which has little to no relevance in the real world other than to frighten people for fear of some being that doesn't exist. If there is some higher calling it should be the needs of society and its required civility.
@davidplummer2473 Жыл бұрын
@@msmd3295 1) You are making my point for me. You say: "Every social group in order to avoid chaos has to have rules BECAUSE when you leave individuals to their own devices chaos reigns." On this we agree completely -- as far as it goes. But if you are going to make that claim, you must go further: if this applies to individuals, there is no reason to think it shouldn't also apply to social groups. What do we have between social groups left to their own devices even now and throughout history because they have/had different rules? The very chaos you rightly dread. So what makes social groups exempt from this principle? Nothing. Therefore, if we're serious about getting rid of all this chaos between both individuals and social groups, there needs to be a moral code that transcends all social groups. There is only one place to get such a code and that is OUTSIDE of the cosmos. If it could be found just in this world, just in our reason, we've been around long enough that we should have found it by now. And, at least in the great progressive enlightened West, we have actually RE-gressed; we can't even agree on whether men can get pregnant. And we have activists and politicians openly stating that we should "deprogram those cult members" who don't think men can give birth with very little pushback. This is what GK Chesterton meant when he said that when people stop believing in God, they don't then believe in nothing, they'll believe anything. 2) Once again, running through your entire post is the assumption that human life has value: "The battle SHOULD BE which values are most conducive to the preservation of the human species . . ." But you have yet to give me a basis for this assumption so let me ask bluntly: Why SHOULD the human species be preserved? No, really. Why? What makes the molecules composing a 150 lb man of any more value than the molecules composing 150 lbs of dead leaves or rocks or sewage? Just because we decided to believe it? And where does this (or any) 'should' come from? If naturalism (the belief that there is only the natural/physical world) is true, there is no such thing as 'should' outside of our imagination. If you're going to argue that evolution has given us the capacity for rules and that's that, don't question it, you also have to grapple with the fact that this same evolution gave us religion that you crap on. But I get the impression that even if all humanity agreed on some supernatural religion that by and large solved all individual and sociological chaos, you would still rebel against it. Because (a) it would take away some or even all of your autonomy, and (b) you would be unable to believe in something that isn't true, regardless of its positive sociological effects. This shows you have something in you that aches for something beyond mere pragmatism or utilitarianism. This same human nature in you is in all of us. We naturally, instinctively, NEED the things that we believe in to have some substantive, rational basis. Otherwise it's like serving up pictures of food in the casserole pan at dinner time instead of the real thing. Yes, some people -- both religious and atheist/agnostic -- can con themselves to believe anything, in part by avoiding conversations like this. So I give you credit for being willing to take the slings and arrows in here. But by and large, over time, people en masse will recognize the hollowness of a belief that has no substantive basis. That is why the Communist Empire crumbled so quickly while religion is still with us. And it's why I said before that a bunch of people getting together and agreeing to PRETEND that human life has value is not the same thing as human life ACTUALLY HAVING value. People need human life to actually have value or it's just make-believe, the very quality that is supposed to disqualify religion as a viable worldview. But if religion is a myth, then for the above reasons, so is secular humanism. 3) Several times you have asserted that God doesn't exist. We can get into that to any depth or degree you like, I'm ready, I've been doing this awhile. But here in what we are already talking about is a sneak-preview: The God instinct is indelible and has been in man from the beginning, across all cultures and times. Even the Communist Empire with atheism as its official state religion still smuggled in ideas that hinted at the supernatural with its historicism and its attempt to turn the state into an omnipotent god, and its elevation of even individuals like Stalin, Mao and Kim into a pantheon of gods. If ANY OTHER instinct was found in a species with even half this level of evidence for it even in one state or province, never mind across all continents, it would be treated as a major discovery by biologists. But because the instinct for the supernatural being taken seriously might lead to sex lives and other debauchery or shabby behavior being interfered with, it is just ignored or ridiculed. If you insist on reducing humanity to accidental collections of subatomic particles, then people will start to BEHAVE as if they are just accidental collections of subatomic particles. They will behave as if their lives -- and especially the lives of others -- have no value, meaning or purpose. In a word, chaotically... **** But it doesn't have to be that way. The Word of God become flesh has given us a way out of this Hell on earth when he said through his servant John in John's gospel (3:16) that "God so loved the world that he really did give his only begotten Son so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." In him and him alone is the light of the world and the both the source and fulfillment of that instinct that each and every one of us has eternal value, meaning and purpose. It can be yours this very hour...
@msmd3295 Жыл бұрын
@@davidplummer2473 "So what makes social groups exempt from this principle? Nothing. Therefore, if we're serious about getting rid of all this chaos between both individuals and social groups, there needs to be a moral code that transcends all social groups." It seems to me you are ignoring human history. There has Never been any transcending system of values. What you speak of is a mere idea and not a reality. Some ideas are good and others not so much. And one reason is not all ideals are attainable especially for a species such as ourselves who were made imperfect in an imperfect universe. "Rules" do apply to social groups and it is social groups that create them and they are designed to sustain civility within THAT group. International and Intranational groups are constantly in conflict with each other BECAUSE they've chosen different value systems. Religion is one specific example. Unfortunately religion has the disfunction of creating conflict largely upon belief in the supernatural. Something that can't be explained or addressed as a real world solution. And it has done nothing to mitigate human conflict. As you should realize, imagining solutions from "outside the cosmos" should be a dead proposition from the get-go because rational minds will always prefer solutions they can see, hear, touch, measure, describe, etc. One can't do that with the supernatural. What has meaning are values one can directly relate to. You can't do that with the supernatural because there is no evidence of it and likely never will. One does not have to believe in some "transcendent" law giver in order to value human life because it is human nature to preserve one's own life and the life of one's children. That is the beginning of valuing all human life, no god needed. All one has to do is look at the human species to recognize our species is unique and our accomplishments are directly linked to being different in the animal world. It doesn't take a god to recognize that uniqueness and it doesn't take Aristotle to understand that's worth preserving. Comparing US to a pile of dead leaves tells me you simply don't appreciate the uniqueness of homo sapiens to question the difference. The value comes from the recognition that if we values our own lives it's merely a matter of putting ourselves in the position of others. That they value their own lives. And if we don't respect the significance of their lives as we do our own, there never will be peace among human beings. But no god is necessary to address the intrinsic value of human life. I dispute the notion of god is an indelible mark on human nature. That conclusion is rooted an anachronisms and historical ignorance. The fact is people believe what they are taught. And part of that teaching is cultural expectations, laws, education, etc. The ancient idea of a "god" is rooted in ignorance and is so widespread and there are so many people that have been taught it the idea has become an expectation and social phenomenon. As the growing evidence point out that more and more people are leaving [organized] religion and yet those same people are finding meaning in their own lives in this universe without a dependence upon god[s]. For example, take the philosophy of Humanism, something that supernatural religions have disparaged for 150 years. Humanists, atheists now make up about 20% of the US population. Yet when one looks at the statistics of the American Bureau of Prisons and the demographics of prisoners "nonbelievers" make up less than 1% of the prison population. Christians make up about 90% of the jailed convicts. So who's committing the most crime per capita? If Christianity doesn't serve as a good guide for human behavior what good is it? It's not effective because religious belief is linked to the supernatural which no one can prove one way or another. You can stop quoting the bible to me. From my studies over the past 40 years I've concluded the bible is just myths, rumors, folktales, etc. with the exception of the mention of proven geographical and historical places. Take for example the story of Joshua burning down the city of Jericho. Both Israeli and Palestinian archeologists are confident that the biblical story couldn't possibly have happened because according to their digs the city of Jericho ceased being a city at least 100 years BEFORE the time of Joshua. And NONE of the supernatural claims can be proven whatsoever. Even Jesus, there is little to no mention of him in Hebrew or Roman ancient literature and even what mention of him, such as the Jewish historian Josephus who was living in Rome at the time and never had ANY contact with Jesus wrote what he was told by others. The New Testament really launched when the Roman Catholic church was officially launched about 200 years after the time of Jesus. And they had motive just like any other business has motive... to build a following [customer base], obtain political power and accumulate wealth.
@davidplummer2473 Жыл бұрын
@@msmd3295 PART #1 “One does not have to believe in some "transcendent" law giver in order to value human life because it is human nature to preserve one's own life and the life of one's children.” On this we agree. You can value anything for any reason. But you’re talking about a state of mind where any belief, substantiated or not, can occur. But that doesn’t mean what you value is actually valuable. If it is, then all make-believe is real after all. I value God; therefore he is real. But you reject that idea because you believe there is no substance behind the claim that he exists. You demand substance to back my belief but refuse to give me any substance to back yours. It’s enough for you to say human life has value because most people agree that it does. “It seems to me you are ignoring human history. There has Never been any transcending system of values. What you speak of is a mere idea and not a reality.” In this world, yes. But I don’t know how you can read my post and say I’m ignoring history when your points about history make my points for me. You say further down that we are an imperfect species made in an imperfect universe. The idea of a perfect species in a perfect universe is also a mere idea and not a reality in this world. But even the IDEA of such perfection is not possible without perfection to compare it to. You can’t know a line is crooked without a straight line to compare it to. “’Rules’”do apply to social groups and it is social groups that create them and they are designed to sustain civility within THAT group. International and Intranational groups are constantly in conflict with each other BECAUSE they've chosen different value systems.” You make my point for me there. It’s very plain that groups have chosen different rules. That’s precisely why there is all this conflict and why there needs to be a transcendent moral code. That we haven’t yet all agreed on one doesn’t mean there isn’t one available to us. Saying there can’t be one condemns us to perpetual chaos. More importantly, your explanation and your post generally just ignores the question of whether human life actually has value. The closest you come is to say value comes from people deciding that their own lives have value and then extrapolating that to other people. But I can decide that behind the front door of my house is a polar bear that disappears every time I open the door and extrapolate that this is true of everyone’s front door. That doesn’t make it so. This is, again, just anthropological gaslighting. Even though there is no evidence for it, we agree to pretend that human life has value, therefore it does. So again I ask, does human life have any value beyond us just wanting it to be so? When I ask you this, I get the same answer that I have heard from hundreds of skeptics I have talked to over the years. It’s an answer that is like me asking, how did that guy draw a royal flush 20 times in a row? But instead of their suspicion being aroused and directly engaging with what might be behind such an extremely unlikely occurrence, they just give mindless nonsequitur truisms, like: people play poker and use different strategies. Well, duh. But don’t you think the deck might be stacked? “As you should realize, imagining solutions from "outside the cosmos" should be a dead proposition from the get-go because rational minds will always prefer solutions they can see, hear, touch, measure, describe, etc.” Minds generally will prefer solutions that give them the path of least resistance, yes. But rational minds that value careful thought will not be so obtuse. They will look and see the God instinct across time and continents and genuinely wonder if there is something behind it and think things through beyond a 280-character attention span. “One can't do that with the supernatural. What has meaning are values one can directly relate to.” Yet billions of people can and do directly relate to religious values. But you reject them so they must be wrong. Surely you have more criteria than that. “You can't do that with the supernatural because there is no evidence of it and likely never will.” This is just nonsense. It’s just you putting your thumb on the scale and defining the standard of evidence for the supernatural as whatever makes the supernatural impossible. The Big Bang theory that the universe had a beginning is evidence of creation. Do you know how it got its name? Fred Hoyle, a British astronomer, did not like the Big Bang theory because of its theistic implications. So he called it the “big bang” as a pejorative, but the name stuck. Nonetheless, science shows that the universe is not past-eternal, it had a beginning. So you have two choices: God created the universe, or it created itself out of nothing. If you are able to put aside your prejudice against the supernatural, which seems more reasonable? And if you still insist on the latter, why aren’t universes just popping into existence in all those cubbyholes of nothing between the atoms and light waves? The fine-tuning of the universe to make life possible is more evidence. It is so many light years beyond the odds of drawing a royal flush 20 or even 20,000 times in a row that it shreds the mind. From the strong and weak nuclear force, electromagnetic force, the relation between the expansion rate of the universe and gravity all being balanced on a razor’s edge to the earth’s crust needing to be a precise thickness to allow there to be tectonic plates that can move to bring up nutrients, yet without volcanoes dominating the surface, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, that the odds against a life-friendly universe happening by chance have been calculated - it was either Polkinghorne or Penrose -- to be one in a number so big that if you converted all the matter in the known universe into paper, you still wouldn’t have room for all the zeroes. And they find more such precise parameters required for life almost daily now. Whoever made that calculation, not even skeptics within the scientific community dispute this it. Instead, they are so shaken by it that they have said things like: “The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the big bang are enormous . . . I think clearly there are religious implications whenever you start to discuss the origins of the universe.” -- Stephen Hawking But undeterred, Hawking continued to try to get rid of the universe’s beginning (and therefore God) by injecting “imaginary numbers” into his theories to his dying day. And by saying strange things like “because there is a law of gravity, the universe can and will create itself out of nothing.” Hoyle later admitted: “A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.” Since then, skeptical physicists have come up with the multiverse as a way of dissolving this massive super-coincidence in the acid of probability. There are an infinite number of other universes out there, they say, and ours just happens to be the one that is life-friendly. But there are many problems with this, not least of which is that the multiverse is a step outside of physics and into metaphysics. Oops! You can’t see it, it can’t be observed, no experiments can be done on it. It is beyond the realm of hard science. Remind you of anyone? Also even if there are infinite other universes, there is far from any guarantee that they aren’t all identical or very similar to this one, ie: all life-friendly against gargantuan odds. Which would make the problem for anti-God multiverse proponents worse by the above odds times infinity. And what is this universe generator anyway? Can’t see/touch/feel/smell it either. Once again, remind you of anyone? We can also get into biology which just makes matters still worse for the skeptic, but this post is obviously very long, so we move on:
@jeremyleak3890 Жыл бұрын
My CHRISTIAN TESTIMONY. HAVE OVERCOME 2 ATTEMPTS AND NOW HAVE PEACE OF JESUS CHRIST IN MY LIFE. PRAYER,WORSHIP, AND SCRIPTURE READING. GREAT WAYS TO HELP OVERCOME depression and anxiety. ❎Suicide is not a solution to your problems ✅Jesus is the solution
@Chris-ig8co5 ай бұрын
Students today only assure me Jesus is coming back soon amd I pray I'm here to see it so I can say I told you so. Forgive me lord for that
@trumpbellend67175 ай бұрын
Do baseless assertions constitute some form of rational argument in your world dear? 🤭