Do We Need Diversity in STEM? | Glenn Loury & Sylvester Gates | The Glenn Show

[@blmartin500]

I've become a massive Glenn Loury fan in the past year or so. He's so succint and brilliant. He tackles the most controversial issues too. Love the guy.

[@ondolite3789]

He reeds from a script and is a vile individual.

[@stephdrake2521]

You are not bright if you think this guy is brilliant …. He makes excuses for racism … that’s why you like him .. he makes whites feel okay with how they mistreat other non white people ….. go jump in the lake

[@nealorr5086]

He has the black privilege (and personal fortitude) to do so.

[@Time_to_Stop_Animal_Cruelty]

I was taken aback when Glenn & John said all E. Asian writing uses picture... No lol. They're fun, but heard better in Seoul University. To use an analogy. Glenn is lol: Clayton Stephenson, Rachmaninov 3 kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXendouPZZije7M Yun Chan Lim, Rachmaninov 3 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoGtfWdubciZiNk

[@IkeOg]

This is one of the cleanest conversations on this topic. I detect ZERO feelings... nothing but precision and coherent model building. Brilliant!!!

[@ondolite3789]

Why do yoo need life free of feelings? What R yoo afraid of?

[@IkeOg]

@@ondolite3789 lol. You are making many unfounded assumptions

[@ondolite3789]

@Ike Ogiamien I did not make a single one never mind menny. Yor attitude is veri common these days and directly linked to George Floyd.

[@IkeOg]

@@ondolite3789 Nice one

[@ondolite3789]

@@IkeOg My pleasure.

[@OddawallWood]

Dr James experience with chess sounds like a good idea for a movie!

[@terrygruber8071]

Absolutely wonderful discussion. Thank you Dr. Gates and thank you Dr. Glenn for being you.

[@mikegray8776]

What a truly captivating conversation! I am retired, in my late sixties, and often regarded as over-contemplative, with now sufficient time on my hands to indulge all sorts of musing - but Jim Gates took me to places (or more precisely concepts) that I had never even considered before. And I don’t mean in the realm of advanced physics (where virtually everything is a mystery to me - and I am perfectly happy to let it remain so), but in terms of Life and Potential and Achievement. This was the meeting of two fabulously unconstricted minds ! As an avid listener to Glenn’s prodigious Social Media output, I would encourage both of you gentlemen to continue this conversation VERY soon - picking up at precisely the point where you left it. Because for me, you were clearly moving to a really significant point of ideological convergence between the strands of DEI mentality, Affirmative action, and the effective achievement of latent intellectual potential. This NEEDS to be heard - and NOW would be a very opportune moment! Thank you both so much, chaps. Utterly enthralling !!

[@kieranmoriarty8366]

I’d like to hear more of Gates, thanks Glenn

[@43nduscott]

This is one of the best conversations I have seen online in a while.

[@f1b0nacc1sequence7]

What an impressive discussion....I have had this debate a million times (I work in the STEM world), but never have I heard it discussed with such mastery and humanity...

[@bnjmnwst]

All I have to say about Professor Jim Gates after that is that he seems like a really great guy. Thank you for having him on, Glenn.

[@jennytr5056]

Please have Dr. Gates back, with or without controversy! This is a wonderful conversation, and I am delighted to have been introduced to such a wise and interesting human being. Grateful for both of you.

[@SevenRiderAirForce]

I'm 12 minutes in and this guy is just about the coolest guy ever! His students must be very lucky.

[@briane173]

Uh huh. Wait until he tries to give a lecture at Stanford.

[@SevenRiderAirForce]

@@briane173 I admit that after I finished it, I was confused. On one hand he wants affirmative action because outsiders can bring new perspectives, but then says we shouldn't tell basketball coaches not to insist that athletes do their best. Would he take the reverse? Advocate for people bad at shooting hoops to get into the NBA because of their other perspectives and insist that students put in their best effort? IMO seems like imagination is important to have *on top of* demonstrated skill. As a general policy we've seen it absolutely does not make up for it. Still seems like a cool physics prof though. And clearly not crazy, just different opinions. He actually gives better (not necessarily good enough, but better) reasons for affirmative action rather than the typical ignore-all-the-data charade nearly everyone else plays. I wish Glenn had brought that up for him to address. Maybe next time.

[@jakeinfactsaid8637]

I agree, and i felt similarly. It sort of felt like glen had that immediate reaction as well but decided to tamp it down and summarize his positions and ask him questions that dig at that tension but never fully satisfactorily. I do sort of agree with him though if we don’t use race as the proxy. I just don’t see how you have a systematic process that detects for outsiders that also doesn’t devolve into bureaucratic box checking using easily identifiable markers that sort of defeats the purpose. An injection of cross discipline, or even non-academic perspectives can absolutely be a catalyst for change in a stagnant field; though.

[@ondolite3789]

You may meen 12 minutes old then.

[@ondolite3789]

@SevenRiderAirForce Maybe next what?? Don't hold your breath! Lousy is grimly predictable.

[@anovino1992]

Great interview, love Mr. Gates, he has a very calming voice. His reasoning was immaculate. He worked hard, and accomplished what his dreams were.

[@bigmalcolmlittle]

That James Naismith analogy is the same one I use for so called Anglo Western culture. Doesnt matter who started it, it matters who advances it and consistently is better!

[@helenmalinowski4482]

LOVE Prof Gates. Thank you!

[@iayanarael2315]

Fantastic! Both And. Thank you for helping us meet all these great people!

[@burnt_owl]

Thanks for having Slyvester Gates on the show, I could listen to this guy talk for hours. The discussion about the necessity of diversity in the STEM field was very thought-provoking.

[@twntwrs]

The "necessity of diversity in STEM" is nonsense. What's needed is competence. Whether that is delivered by a bonobo, an octopus, a Mongolian, or a Khoi is irrelevant.

[@joeapollon5763]

Diversity is important, and recruitment is how you achieve it without changing the standards.

[@ancientfuture9690]

I thoroughly, THOROUGHLY enjoyed that conversation. I hope Glenn has this guest on again, some time in the future.

[@edwardcopeland5069]

This quest! Do you know who this is?

[@RodneyGuitar]

Love this show. Its intellectual and common sense at the same time, its thorough but digestible. Fact-driven as opposed to feelings... love it!!!!

[@ondolite3789]

When the world sees a man having the life squeezed out of him by a cop then emotion will always come into it. Yoor words are a result of George Floyd and yoo R the result of coupling beests.

[@ericblack1127]

As a senior in college I lived with Igor Yanson's (EPS Europhysics Prize 1987) family in Kharkiv, Ukraine. I'm a walking example of Dr. Yanson's and the Soviet's SAM (Science Arts and Mathematics) process instead of our STEM (...Technology Engineering...) one. Music was a huge deal in Dr. Yanson's household. Music including all genres such as American pop and hip-hop has massive intellectual motivation when one hears it the way Dr. Yanson does (did, RIP).

[@TheSeeking2know]

Important conversation. Thank you for highlighting this great scientist. Inspirational!

[@TIMLUEKENS]

what a terrific guest, love watching the Glenn show

[@rosalindwyatt5603]

Dr. Gates is so very eloquent. Excellent guest.

[@Calliopeia666]

What an absolute joy to listen to this wonderful man. You are both so lovely. Thank you.

[@oldschoolsaint]

What a gentile, dignified, decent and brilliant man. Could listen to him speak all day.

[@briane173]

@X vonPocalypse I'm sure he means genteel. We don't even know what friggin' religion he's got.

[@bayoudude622]

This is one of your best shows, Glen. Incredible.

[@richardfeit8296]

That was absolute genius. Professor Gates makes points I never thought of concerning equity (something I vehemently opposed and now oppose slightly less in some areas), and cancellation. of which I totally agree with both professor Loury and Professor Gates. Was a huge bonus btw to get such a concise explanation pf supersymmetry as well. Right on gentleman. Keep on. :)

[@uncle.j]

I’m so thankful for this discussion on these topics. It’s sentient, metered, thoughtful, and unique. And digestible! Two brilliant men speaking about important things from an informed position, wherein Dr. Loury begins by asking the right questions, and showcases Dr. Gates dunking on the topics over and over again. Thanks to Dr.’s Loury and Gates for discussing this, and for informing my perspective.

[@blucheer8743]

Awesome episode!

[@DonLovell-xl3sk]

Excellent

[@jeffh2166]

What a great guest and Glenn listened which tells you how good he was!

[@juanaboynkin1196]

Dr Gates, you are a man to admire. With hard work and discipline, you are a man that more should know and emulate.

[@sethro221]

Wonderful and elucidating conversation between two amazing gentlemen scholars. I feel lucky to have been able to listen in. Thank you both!

[@ISSNTV]

Very interesting conversation

[@captiveamerica1776]

I love hearing Gates talk physics. Cool to see him on The Glenn Show!

[@timothy4664]

Amazing conversation

[@Apriluser]

As a musician with a graduate degree in music, I am loving this conversation. I also have a love for math, but I’m not at a high-level. But what a great analogy with music having glimpses of the composer’s culture embedded in it. You can tell a French composer from an Austrian composer from a Russian composer and what time frame a piece was written in just by listening. So it certainly has to do with culture and not color.

[@AndreComtois]

So culture is an immutable characteristic? Such that a person from north america can't move to Japan, become immersed in the culture after living there for 5 years and then compose a Japanese song? Or a person from the United Kingdom can't write a blues song without having ever visited the US? The culture argument doesn't hold any water.

[@Apriluser]

@@AndreComtois Unfortunately your argument has little to do with what I stated. I’m not stating my own opinion. (study music, history, music theory, etc, and you’ll learn that there are certain characteristics in different cultures that composers use.)

[@zeenuf00]

​@@AndreComtois blah blah blah blah

[@Individual_Lives_Matter]

@@zeenuf00Great counter argument.

[@Volkbrecht]

My experience is rather the opposite. I have worked in corporate R&D all my life. Chemistry and chemical engineering. As a tech, I see entry level scientists and engineers coming and going all the time, and living in a country with a bit of attraction, I have seen people from all corners of the world. My perception is that the education streamlines the thinking process. Cultural background plays out in project managment and career building, but the scientific and technical thinking these people do is mostly identical. There are good ones and bad ones, systematic ones and chaotic ones, but that doesn't seem to align with ethnicity. Science is not a creative business. It requires methodical work along known lines of thinking. Research is a very sytematic process, where knowledge is applied in a controlled fashion to answer rationally conceived questions the answer to which is not known yet. This a big difference to the creative arts.

[@michaelwoodall9022]

When Professor Gates said "I'm not special", I was blown away! He is incredibly special, as is Glenn, not due to appearance, but the intelligence and the contributions to those around them that they have made.

[@robertherriges7282]

It's in that statement that Professor Gates can both be humble and promote affirmative action. If he admits to being a special case then he can't claim that others could easily do the same with special treatment in admissions.

[@paganbaby8158]

Great show! Very much enjoyed your conversation with Professor Gates. Very thoughtful.

[@jankmonze]

Outstanding!!

[@BloggerMusicMan]

I was hugely impressed by Sylvester Gates: calm, brilliant, curious, clear explainer, and very kind. One of your very best episodes.

[@endpc5166]

Gates seems to be suggesting that "diversity", always meaning mainly B lacks, is needed in STEM fields on the chance that the b lackness itself might contribute to new STEM discoveries. What discovery in science has ever been attributed to ethnicity? This is a very lame excuse for racial preferences, which are illegal.

[@endpc5166]

What discovery in science has ever been attributed to ethnicity? His is a very lam𝜖 excus𝜖 for rac𝜄al prefer𝜖nces, which are ill𝜖gal.

[@saraht9442]

S. J. Gates is just phenomenally brilliant I am binging on his amazing interviews.

[@rodbrown8076]

Excellent! I appreciate his perspective. What a brilliant, humble and refreshing clear voice on a very convoluted subject.

[@cybersnap6072]

This was such a pleasure to listen to. Almost sounded like music.

[@MrCzto]

Thanks guys!

[@tupacalypse88]

The basketball analogy is really good I like it.

[@nickt2822]

amazing conversation! we need more of this on the mainstream. 100% spot on.

[@BugMateo]

Booyah Glenn and Gates!

[@barnabast8793]

What a great discussion!!! Thank you.

[@BS-gj5ot]

Brilliant conversation. Thanks to both of you

[@whisper2284]

This was an amazing discussion! Professor James Gates is top tier. Bring him back on the show.

[@Calliopeia666]

Please have mr Gates on your show more times.

[@swcordovaf]

Mastery of the knowledge (what has been imagined and brought to life) must occur before imagination (what is possible) can have her full flowering. To master knowledge requires respect, discipline, work, time and sacrifice. The investment to get to imaginative status and ability is tremendous. Fantastic discussion .

[@djangogeek]

I remember seeing Jimmy in the hallway at the Toll Physics building at UMD and getting star struck several times. Great show!

[@danilopompey754]

Now, this was a delight; old Glenn ran out all his rightwing tropes and got no endorsement or reinforcement from James. . . except the courtesy agreements at the end of the video - long after James had won the debate, yes, debate; Glenn is always engaged in a debate even when it is disguised as a friendly interview. Score: James 1| Glenn 0. QED

[@willpower3317]

@@danilopompey754 Lol

[@gwenpierson7340]

Thank you very much Mr Gates for being so clear on your views. It is not always black or white as the context matters a lot on issues such as affirmative action etc ... And well done to mr Loury for always challenging his guests. Poor them, they better prepare well for such a host!! 😂😂

[@skepticalbutopen4620]

Loved this conversation. So many good points from both sides.

[@michaelhiggins2562]

Wonderful and informative conversation --- insightful! Thanks

[@valencia4215]

An exceptional, introspective, enlightening discussion.

[@The88Cheat]

There are many people in this world that would only see “two black men” while I see “two intelligent men that happen to also be black.” People are so much more than how much melanin their skin produces. If you feel compelled to boil humans down to a single characteristic, intelligence/education of a person tells you far more about then then race ever will.

[@doingbusinessasyourself]

I was riveted for the entire hour - really appreciate the conversation. 🙌🏼

[@wadetisthammer3612]

Fantastic episode!

[@dennisdose5697]

Excellent show. Professor Gates is well worth listening to, clearly he has thought carefully about his positions and pursued reasoned conclusions. This is a welcome change from the many who seem to adopt a position and then seek ways to shore it up. Enjoyed the gentleman and his thoughts.

[@LMarkWeeks]

Nuanced and thought provoking discussion. Thank you.

[@AK_7906]

This was a very enjoyable, enriching, and informative discussion. We need more of this!

[@sineadbridges]

I think there was quite a few points that Glen didn’t agree with, Also there wasn’t any conversation about the 10-14 iq points (standard deviation) that mathematically speaking explains low black representation in high level academia, Jews as a race beat European white people with one whole standard deviation in iq, hence the high representation of Jewish academics in the stem fields. This stuff was mathematically explained 40/50 years ago, it just so happens that the math is offensive to lots of people.

[@afuzzycreature8387]

well, when you drill down you can find all kinds of other differences but we can also say that culture cuts the numbers a lot. Also the normal distribution as an assumption gets hazier in the tails and even how to measure intelligence gets somewhat hazy but still generally appropriate.

[@sineadbridges]

@@afuzzycreature8387 but that’s my point, those groups with higher iq normally have cultures that are higher functioning with traits within those cultures that lend them selves to preferable outcomes. It’s about the average iq of the racial group not the individual, that’s how we get statistics. The math has been done years ago, this is basic stuff but obviously potentially offensive. If your group has higher iq then it only makes sense that you get better outcomes as a group.

[@jwt242]

Great conversation! One of your best... love Dr. Gates since I discovered him in the early 2000's. My parents bought me one of his courses from The Teaching Company and it was terrific. He definitely hasn't changed a bit and for sure hope he returns to the show.

[@jjjoy7887]

Great discussion! Dr. Gates is a true truth teller; an elder we need to hear more from in our current season of polarization. Thanks for including his voice.

[@lonzo61]

The problem with many of the strident WOKEsters, as I have found in my experience, is that they would call Professors Loury and Gates too old to bother listening to. I have actually had some say this to me when I drop names of intellectuals who are critical of WOKE ideology! And they call me--a lifelong liberal--a Trumpster and right winger--even after I tell them that I hate DJT and twice voted against him! That is a microcosm of the state of things in this country....and abroad, for that matter.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

excellent conversation!!

[@samueljohnson8244]

Wonderful conversation.

[@hanh3000]

Glenn, you always bring it! I love how you're always willing to ask the uncomfortable questions. The kind of questions that will get you canceled these days. Hope you will be doing this for a long time to come.

[@dejue]

Listening to Dr. Gates is like listening to a beautiful symphony of words and ideas. Wow 🤩

[@marclambert1283]

I wish Glen had asked this follow up question. Once you have decided to allocate a certain percentage of an opportunity to black students, what metrics do you use to decide which black students should be provided with the opportunity? Would have been interested in hearing how he would have responded.

[@nancya7289]

I wonder if he would have said something similar to his other ideas -- such as, metrics have limits. That was the point the president of MIT made about Mr. Gates: according to metrics, Mr Gates should not have succeeded. It's a way of describing how humanity might be baked into the educational project. At some point, gatekeepers go with their gut.

[@ondolite3789]

What metrics were there for whyte students?

[@marclambert1283]

@@ondolite3789 test scores would be the logical conclusion

[@ondolite3789]

@Marc Lambert Totally wrong and ignorant of history, actuality and context.

[@marclambert1283]

​@Ondo Lite Okay, I will play along with your arrogance, please share with me what you believe are the metrics, but keep in mind that I graduated college and my three children all have graduate degrees. But I am sure your unbiased opinion is 100% factual

[@Paulmancieri67]

That was a terrific back-and-forth between 2 great scholars. It serves as a reminder that nobody owns the truth and the best way forward is to be open and to listen to all ideas regardless of race.

[@halfdome4158]

Isnt that nice? How about this truth: only 15% of blaq 8th graders in the US can read at grade level. Meanwhile, let's continue to discuss the lack of blaqs ( or hispanics) in the hard sciences and cry racism. Dishonest, callous, vicious and nihilistic. Just keep soaking up that taxpayer money and cry WS. Everyone just turn your heads and demand more programs and more money.

[@mikejeffries3863]

Excellent conversation. Thank you Glenn.

[@SuperFloyd187]

Thank you.

[@galihad1980]

As is often the case with Glenn's channel. It was a truly fantastic conversation.

[@robertnorman7309]

Great show. Great role models.

[@TromboneRockGod]

A brilliant and quite an enjoyable podcast. The Glenn Show and others like it, are the reason why I haven't watched TV in over 5 years now. Thank you Glenn!

[@ondolite3789]

How can I get a tv to yoo.

[@lonzo61]

I stopped watching TV in March of '16!!! I feel ya, man.

[@ondolite3789]

@@lonzo61 I have just completed 20 years. No biggie. TV reflects a lot of stuff and is not a biased, unified entity.

[@dramese]

My hero… the great Professor Gate

[@interrobang5000]

Wow. What a brilliant discussion.

[@chaimmayerson2832]

One of the best!

[@rivernorthhomes]

Great conversation! Huge fan Glenn, love your economic theories

[@Hokie200proof]

This was a great conversation, thanks to both of you for sharing your ideas and allowing each the space to exchange.

[@cyberft]

Amazing show.

[@MrCzto]

Do some more with Professor Gates! He is amazing!

[@josehawking5293]

The lack of quality furniture and the sharing of books while simultaneously beating every one at chess means that the furniture and books aren’t the type of investments that make a difference. Always having shiny new things isn’t where the investment should be necessarily placed. Maintaining older equipment and an appreciation of work and self reliance or individual responsibility are much more valuable. Most scientists probably didn’t have a new car for someone else to maintain but rather learning to maintain and appreciate something is much more valuable.🤔

[@gtpumps]

Always great to see gentleman and scholar's have a chat.

[@seekinganhonestpolitician]

I live in Northern Virginia and Fairfax County makes a point to give disproportionate money to disadvantaged community schools. Washington DC has great funding. Throwing money at the schools is not enough.

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

Two brilliant guys.

[@nawalli]

Excellent discussion!

[@RominaJones]

That was fantastic, great guest!

[@zeej80]

Amazing discussion. I believe we as a society can get through this current culture war by having conversations like this,& actually *listening* to one another.

[@briannichols4856]

Great show Glenn

[@plutobaby9996]

Great talk wow

[@andrepack]

This is GOLD

[@anonemaus159]

If "errors" occur on uniform testing that always disfavor a group, then no one can admit they are not errors. Why can no one can come up with a test which has errors that favor that group?

[@BlacksmithTWD]

I'm not sure what you mean, it's easy to come up with errors in tests that favour a particular group. The whole idea of tests though is to make tests that don't have errors, or at least have as few as possible. It seems to me that you are more hinting at the problem of tests disfavouring a certain group but it's not clear whether that disfavouring is because of errors or because of that certain group. Please correct me if I'm wrong, preferably by using a concrete example.

[@heatherreynolds6193]

An excellent discussion between two learned and richly experienced scholars. I especially appreciated the topic of imagination's contribution to knowledge generation and the value of cultural diversity in broadening the range of human imagination. It would be wonderful to have Dr. Gates back on The Glenn Show! I found myself wishing there was time for related discussion, including on Glenn's distinction between bias vs. development and how that plays into issues of use of college test scores and the ability to capture the value of cultural diversity.

[@yurib7067]

Two great ambassadors of peace.

[@johngalyon5049]

Agree with under investment being a major issue but so is a lack of focus on education in the home…… putting more money in the schools is doomed to fail without changing the parents focus towards emphasizing education in the homes As with most social issues, the answer is complicated and requires a more holistic approach if we truly expect to change outcomes

[@TrillEverything]

"Lack of focus on education in home" The Cycle: Broken homes due to lack of investment in education that would allow a man to earn a living wage and be a leader in his household...that then would stabilize the household and allow the mother to properly nurture and the man to properly guide. When you break that cycle of strong families through lack of investment and opportunity, you get Slum-Dogs in India and Snoop Dog in LA. That lack of investment was never an accident. It was a strategic ploy to keep free Africans from competing. This is why slaveholders didn't allow the enslaved to read. Wherever you saw free blacks in the 1700s and 1800s, you saw them reading and writing. While Slavery held African American back.. Jim Crow literally decimated blacks. Then Welfare and Feminism put the nail in the coffin. Black men have not had a FAIR break since they got off the boat. Imagine if there were 5 million black Professor Gates' and Glen Loury's. How would white Americans benefit from that many brilliant black males...oh...who can also, dance and sing...lolol? There is zero value to White America to invest in that. That is the delemma, especially when the US keeps bringing more immigrants. Hence, in 2023 the cycle continues...and black men continue to create a black market economy to sustain their broken homes and baby mammas. That black market economy in urban America creates death...just as cartels create death in Central America. ✌️ #NoVictimBsJustTruth

[@galihad1980]

​@TrillEverything this is an arbitrary starting point based not on the actual flow of history but instead starting with a purely modern origin.

[@ssmith9890]

He argued for a bit about the underinvestment in communities due to the earnings/wealth gap between races. I googled for a bit and found that 1) the income difference between races is much smaller than he described and 2) in my area (very large state in population and land mass), 80% of school funding is at the state level, not dependent on local property taxes. I think he is leaning on information that is a bit obsolete and social policies have corrected in the last few decades.

[@FUToob]

@X vonPocalypse - Yes; 0/23.

[@TrillEverything]

@@ssmith9890 If you look at that same data for urban communities you will see there is a tremendous gap in wages. the "creation" of ghettos is and was an institutional endeavor. Ghettos do not get adequate resources until and unless they become gentrified. Then dollars follow the wages of the gentrifiers into the those communities. Now, a percentage of gentrifiers are black, well above 95% of White, Asian or East Asian. Back to the original question, black people who live in "the hood" are caught in a 70 years vicious cycle that they can only break with Affirmative Action, and hand up or a handout. Sadly, handouts on calm poverty but don't help you escape. The actual financial cost and mindset cost of escaping is extremely high. EXTREMELY!

[@mdquaglia]

One's heredity and upbringing influence them, but by no means limit their potential. These two fine gentlemen are proof of that.

[@stephenmerriman5620]

Fantastic talk