Graveyard Hate Tier List | Commander Clash Podcast 124

[@MrGeoghagan]

Tomer out here doing his best to be the voice of reason while Richard lives in a bubble of the only viable interaction being board wipes and fogs.

[@punkypinko2965]

It's all meta dependent.

[@crawdaddy2004]

I probably disagree with Richard on about 95 percent of things.

[@FidoPhilanthropist]

So the standard Goldfish discussion

[@flexoffender8159]

I’m starting to think Richard is trolling for content

[@timbombadil4046]

Generally Tomer is only off is when he's overselling niche cards. He's usually the most balanced of the five.

[@VinniePaul91]

Richard would defect in the prisoner's dilemma so fast.

[@bortron5000]

I think Seth hit on it around 26:00 -- given the fact that this group plays little graveyard hate (by their own admission), and the ranking scale is "how likely am I to include this card in my decks", most of the cards inevitably fall to the bottom of the scale. Might have been better to structure the ranking as a relative measure - "if someone wanted to play graveyard hate and dedicate a slot or two in a deck to it, what are the best/worst cards to consider?". Food for thought.

[@josephwodarczyk977]

This is a great analysis.

[@patches.742]

It feels strange that the video wasnt formatted like the latter sentence

[@Tater8q3f]

Richard always playing the "I'll just kill you instead card" when his primary strategy is to let everyone else kill each other before he commits to the board. The best graveyard hate is the ones your opponent plays.

[@BlinkyFizz]

Yeah, I think there is something to be said for that aspect of the game. If you are playing a game with a regular playgroup, you get to know who they are and what they do, what they like.. Etc.. But if you're rocking up to an LGS to play with randoms, you need to be prepared for anything... and I think this is where Crim is correct. You can't play RIP in a casual deck and then expect to find a table at your LGS again the next week. Haha. But at the same time, if you're expecting your opponent to play a Bojuka Bog at the right time to stop some other player from going off, it's your own fault that you lost. The casual and player randomness of the format makes it very hard to accurately judge a lot of these cards.

[@TheDoubleMinority]

And I agree 😂

[@peewee0224]

My least favorite player to play with because now I have to use all my removal because they suck at deck building

[@pokedadsam9041]

22:20 Seth’s not wrong. Bojuka bog really is just an mdfc. You play the back side as a tapped land often; but sometimes you use the spell. But you still get the land drop and it can be bounced to hand later.

[@jaredwright1655]

Even better cause you use the tormods crypt effect and its now a land instead of a missed land drop

[@dementievatz]

Yes! It has sneaky synergies like bounce lands or Flickerwisp effects.

[@imaginarymatter]

Bojuka Bog isn't great graveyard removal but the opportunity costs for running it is so low it feels like cheating. The new Pit of Offerings might even be better since it can possibly become a WUBRG land.

[@FlourescentPotato]

@@imaginarymatter The opportunity cost makes it great. Clear S+, same as scavenger grounds.

[@connorjohnston5594]

You guys forgot about Unlicensed Hearse. I play it in my Shorikai Vehicles deck, but every time it's in play it always over performs. It's repeatable, instant speed, targeted graveyard hate that eventually nets you a huge body.

[@fearghaill9738]

Seconded, having something that slowly grows and then you can play a creature post-wrath, crew it, and run someone over with a casual 10/10

[@baconsir1159]

Richard has gotten way too comfortable with no one playing combos lol. “Just wait for them to do their thing and wrath them. If they win on that turn hope you have the fog” 💀💀💀

[@kevinthecarpathian]

also apparently plays against zero counter magic

[@imaginarymatter]

It seems like Tomer is the only one who has ever played against something like a Reveillark loop.

[@punkypinko2965]

It's all meta dependent. If it's not something he encounters on a regular basis, then there is no reason to play against it.

[@WiLDRAGE777]

Someone needs to play a Gravecrawler loop against him at some point. It's so cheap to get off and he doesn't believe in targeted removal.

[@erikallen4923]

@@punkypinko2965yeah but it is awkward when he is offering these opinions in a public-facing way without considering how specific his meta is. I think he is a strong player, who makes good gameplay decisions and understands his specific meta, but I do not think he reflects critically on whether or not his philosophy is widely applicable. Also maybe he’s a bit of a contrarian.

[@thomasgamperfeitoza7319]

I love how the podcast turns from somewhat serious discussions to crazyness and then back

[@thetrinketmage]

With Bajuka Bog it's like an MDFC. You play it as a tapped land on turn 1,2, or 3. Then later in the game instead of playing land number 8 it becomes a 0 mana uncounterable way to exile a yard loaded with reanimation targets. I think it's such an S tier card in mono black since why not have one swamp enter tapped when it can sometimes win the game against some decks

[@Jupue]

well, coffers. but i agree

[@peewee0224]

Except it’s sorcery speed. It’s garbage

[@retro.7673]

Joey at Edhrec is sweating bullets.

[@TransformersBoss]

I find that incidental graveyard-hate cards are the best in Commander. Something that’s useful in any game, but can be used to hose the graveyard. Cards like Scavenging Ooze, Bojuka Bog, Dauthi Voidwalker, and others. If I need to blast graveyards, I can, but in other games they’re still good

[@thegreatestblood]

You're right about those cards except for Scavenging Ooze. It's not useful in a game in which you don't need the GY hate. It's essentially a vanilla creature that gets chump blocked for days if it even gets big in the first place

[@Byteside546]

Spreading the love for Titania's Command

[@peewee0224]

@@thegreatestbloodit has creature synergies life gain synergies counter synergies can be used in any aggressive combat focused deck. It’s just a good card

[@qwormuli77]

​@@thegreatestbloodAs a vanilla-ish creature it's bad, you wouldn't include it in a pure foodstuffs deck. But it has a grab bag of synergies, that often easily excuse the inclusion.

[@goldbergbrain]

This podcast is shocking. In my playgroup, we all run 1 to 3 graveyard hate cards in every deck. Also 1-3 targeted land destruction cards. I also run a fog or misdirection effect or two. When I watch the show, I often find myself wondering why people get away with lots of shenanigans (relatively speaking from my meta which has a lot of interaction) ... now it makes more sense! Clash on!

[@holstenmason]

im a born in the wool green player and i think that targeted LD should be normalized for the format. there are enough really good lands out there that they are always useful.

[@laytonjr6601]

@@holstenmason Targeted land destruction is always fine, unless you combo with it (If you have Strip Mine, Azusa and Crucible of worlds on the field you instantly lose 3 friends)

[@ddublu]

seth's blessed respite take almost killed this literal 4head podcast. love you guys

[@fosap]

Oh man, not enough love for lion sash. Instant speed graveyard hate attached to your best, evasive creature that turns into an enormous creature if there's a board wipe. Has won me so many games. I think it's first and foremost a counters card, and not an equipment/voltron/artifact card, though it works fine there, too. Repeatable and instant speed is just so good, even if it's just a combat trick and boardwipe protection with graveyard upside

[@imaginarymatter]

I love that effect so much I run Withered Wretch. And Withered Wretch doesn't have any other upside besides being a zombie.

[@lukastrucka9447]

Love me some Lion Sash, reconfigure, wrath, eat GY. Done🎉

[@peewee0224]

@@imaginarymatterI love withered wretch in my zombie deck. Lion sash and ooze are criminally underrated

[@imaginarymatter]

I think almost all graveyard hate is inherently B. There's so much variety of graveyard hate you're best utilizing the graveyard hate that also furthers your game plan (e.g. Lion Sash in equipment decks).

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Lion Sash misses so much graveyard strategies by requiring mana. In the same way you don't need to play removal or ramp that fits your gimmick, you should just play good graveyard hate.

[@imaginarymatter]

@@MakeVarahHappen Most generic graveyard hate is bad. Ramp and removal are cards you will use in every game -- you can't say the same for graveyard hate. You can play several games without running into a graveyard deck or even graveyard interaction outside of something like Eternal Witness. Because of that most of the good graveyard hate cards are bad because they don't have a graveyard that needs to be hated on. Graveyard hate is much better off being a modal effect or an incidental effect on other cards so they have a chance to do something else when graveyard hate isn't needed. Lion Sash succeeds at this because it's an equipment that benefits from equipment synergies while a single white mana is about as cheap a cost for instant speed interaction as you can get. Most graveyard interaction is single target and sorcery speed. If you sniff out the graveyard deck you can leave a white mana open and snag what the graveyard player is targeting. If you don't need the graveyard hate just grow your creature and get the equipment synergies.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@imaginarymatter I think in a Singleton format focusing on synergy and doing your thing instead of protecting yourself is a good way to die. You don't see every card in your deck every game, and not every card needs to be useful every game.

[@another505]

Lion sash is terrible in equipment voltron deck. If you see a graveyard deck, especially one that plays edict effects, you just try to murder him by tutoring colossus hammer/embercleave. Not removing 1 card from his graveyard

[@collinbeal]

​@@another505it is a creature that dodges wraths and creature removal by hiding, and can then pop out as a huge threat that you can attach your equipment to. Has saved my bacon before.

[@Caelus7]

I've played Marchesa the Black Rose for nearly 4 years now... I despair the moment someone says "pregame action, put leyline of the void into play"

[@_claymore]

"In response, I concede. GG see you next match"

[@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS]

There are decent options now to remove or deal with enchantments within the grid is colors

[@dean_silvers2318]

How does Crim not play Deathrite Shaman? You hit someone with a Sword of Body and Mind, mill ten cards from their deck, and then periodically exile them! That sounds like the periodic torture that Crim loves!

[@TumbleDwyer]

He'd need to have green in his deck.

[@aaronmiller1009]

I put Bojuka Bog in just about every black deck because I think the opportunity cost is very low, especially on a budget where you’re running a few tap lands anyway, but I can count on one hand the times I have seen it matter in a game compared to the countless turn 3 or 4 exile an empty graveyard bojuka bogs I have seen. I haven’t really thought about scavenger grounds but I think you’re right that it’s better

[@dementievatz]

I have Scavenger Grounds in every deck - in my experience, it’s really strong, but holding up 3 mana and potentially sacrificing a land is a real cost. It’s hard to do it in the early game without really setting yourself back.

[@PeterKotsonas]

I can’t believe they didn’t mention Endurance I love that card in creature decks

[@totakekeslider3835]

$$$ but I agree it's fantastic

[@representativejoints1188]

Blessed Respite is by far my favorite graveyard hate. Instant speed, 2 mana, stops thassa and the ilk, saves from alpha strikes and combos. Fog meta babbbyyy

[@nykthosacolyte5710]

It does nothing special a lot but I do enjoy it in random pods where it can use both effects effectively quite often.

[@representativejoints1188]

@@nykthosacolyte5710 Right on. When you meet that random mill player and save yourself by shuffling your own grave. I've done it. One of the first reasons I played it in my draw heavy deck.

[@redcar28]

No joke. I've rarely had it be dead and often had it swing a game.

[@representativejoints1188]

@@redcar28 Legit holding 2 mana isn't a lot to ask for such a versatile card that covers many wincons.

[@PikachaoArt]

@40:39 I didn't realize Tomer's face could contort like that, the deathrite shaman fight is real!!

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

LOL OMG THAT WAS HILARIOUS

[@DrMonty-ng5fo]

xD

[@ThorMan91587]

25:05 maybe I'm biased because I dropped a Bog on a Necusar turbo wheel/mill deck when he had two thirds of his deck and *all* of his win conditions in his yard. Dude ran 11 counters and wouldn't let anything threatening stick. Top decked Bog and windmill slammed it on the board. He had two counters in hand and couldn't do shit against a land drop. He immediately scooped and left without a word in a cold fury. 10/10 always hold Bog

[@TabbyLavalamp]

I have a Muldrotha deck and I made sure I put in a few spells that can counter triggered and activated abilities with Bog specifically in mind, but they work against most of the hate as needed.

[@Mensch777]

Richard and Crim often have odd hot takes but god damn they are right about Deathrite Shaman in 99. 60 card format its amazing. It is only really playable in self mill commanders so a very specific C as a final grade makes sense

[@LouisKing995]

But they don’t even think it’s good in self milk graveyard decks. Which is a wild take.

[@ohako79]

You missed 3 pieces of graveyard hate that I might have talked about: Stonecloaker in a Chulane deck, Agent of Erebos in enchantress, and Froghemoth in a Chishiro deck.

[@Programme021]

I've played Blessed Respite without expecting much of the card, and after playing 30 games or so with it, the card actually plays really well. Saved me a bunch of time, it seems there's always a good usage for this card. At least in a mostly-combat metagame.

[@robboomsma6739]

I've had the same experience. 1 card that fog, empty an opponents graveyard, or prevent me from milling out. It's a good utility card and I've ended up adding it to a bunch of my decks.

[@Sinistra359]

Here are three black graveyard hate cards that may not be the best ones to play, but that I always love playing with. Callous bloodmage, szat's will and author of shadows.

[@imaginarymatter]

Szat's Will is so overlooked (probably because of how good the rest of the cycle is) but 5 mana for graveyard removal, a super edict, and a bunch of tokens is pure grade value.

[@jamescraig3485]

Those are all pretty great. Love callous bloodmage.

[@NaldoNidoking]

The lands are S tier for me. I put Bojuka Bog and Scavenger Grounds in every deck, and might start experimenting with Pit of Offerings in 3+ color decks Edit: Shout-out to Faerie Macabre. It's only really playable if your deck cares about the creature types or the fact that it flies, but in those decks, it's a free instant speed exile two from the bin.

[@BradDaemons]

Szats will, Callous bloodmage, tranquil frillback?? i feel like they missed some of the best graveyard removal when they are modal and have incidental graveyard exile upside

[@leaguesbelowthesea]

Richard doesn't play graveyard hate because it doesn't forward his game plan. Crim plays graveyard hate to troll graveyard decks. Seth plays graveyard hate when it's stapled onto something more useful. Tomer's the responsible one, but him being responsible means that the others are slacking. I'd love to see Tomer jam a few graveyard decks in a row just to get the point across.

[@benknock981]

its such a strong archetype that you cant be allowed to be upset over hate towards the deck, artifact and enchantment decks are the same thing, theyre all so stupidly strong and have so much support that you cant be upset over people playing a leyline of the void or a vandal blast

[@michaelcollins4534]

Crim and Richard out here with some bizarro world takes today

[@leonfriedemann9151]

I do like blessed respite in my muldrotha deck. Gravehate, fog and the illusion of saving my cards from an exile plus the random force shuffle someone who just tutored, all in one card. I like that a lot. 🤔

[@WiLDRAGE777]

One of my favorite options for white is a little known Mercadian Masques rare called Honor the Fallen. It only costs 1W and it removes all creatures from all graveyards at instant speed and you gain 1 life for each creature removed.

[@robertnixilis1760]

Crop rotation is low-key the best graveyard hate. Its gets Bog at instant speed and is a fog at instant speed (glacial chasm). I recall winning a game bojuka bogging a player who was trying to animate dead world-gorger.

[@kevinthecarpathian]

After watching most of this video I am getting the impression that Richard doesn't play against graveyard/re-animator decks too often. Probably falls into his "let the other players deal with it" thing like target removal.

[@discoviolenza1984]

That's Richards whole philosophy and strategy and it usually works out very well for him in their playgroup. The last commander clash episode where he played the dino deck is a perfect example of this. Did nothing all game but ramp and board wipe once wait for the other three players to waste there resources on each other then once the others players have beaten each nearly to death he drops all his threats.

[@baconsir1159]

Because they’re allergic to killing players until they look scary, minus Crim who tends to be the guy who looks scary. Their playgroup also avoids combos like the plague, with Tomer’s one Kiki combo ever still being a meme.

[@kevinthecarpathian]

@@discoviolenza1984 Yeah, the 8 board wipes and multiple fogs as a win con idea. I really like Richard as a person but good lord would I never want to play him in a commander game.

[@Jupue]

@@baconsir1159wasnt it an entire...2 times?

[@EliyaSelhub]

Angel of Finality and Grey Host Reinforcements are evasive threats that exile a graveyard on ETB, making them good in blink decks and decent in their respective typal decks. The low floor on Grey Host makes it the weaker card for sure, but in Magical Christmasland it can get big enough for the ward 3 to matter.

[@CriticalPotato]

Did they miss Ground Seal? It is my personal favorite, and one of the many ways in which green steals things from other colors.

[@anxez]

Crim is Right, the Snub on Kaya's Guile is absolutely insane, that card is a HOUSE, you resolve it and you immediately change the situation at the table.

[@Byteside546]

Shout out to Titania's Command for modal graveyard removal. Remove someone's entire graveyard to gain life = to cards removed. Also tutor out any two lands... like Bojuka Bog >.>

[@Jupue]

well, bojuka bog is kinda pointless at that point, maybe scavenger grounds for the future

[@Byteside546]

​@@Jupueyeah most likely but you could hit a 2nd player's graveyard. The real value is Nykthos / Cabal / etc or two token bodies, or even counters in the right deck

[@jk0r]

I like Szat's Will. Its obv. not super strong, but it fits the meta that I play in very nicely.

[@evakajetaniak]

God crim is sooooo funny 😂. Sometimes his repetitive decks are a little annoying but he takes so much joy in this game it's infectious.

[@Renecromancer]

Watching seth during the Bojuka bog discussion was great

[@joebalestreri8059]

Did I miss it, or did you fail to mention the OG graveyard hate, Tormod’s Crypt? I think it’s a solid choice, especially in decks that care about having a lot of artifacts in play, artifact sacrifice, etc

[@thriftypsgr]

9:54 I fully agree. I have at least 3 pieces of graveyard recursion in every deck

[@bacurana]

I play monowhite and I love me some remorseful cleric. An evasive creature that hoses graves at instant speed and can easily be gotten back with the 3 mana or less recursion so common in monowhite.

[@Caerikz]

Tomer has me on board with his RIP argument. I've lost many games to people assuming the grave deck was out of the game while they just sculpted a hand to dredge their grave again after blowing up my rest in peace. In that case all it does is stall for time and keep me from benefitting from death triggers.

[@hobez64]

Thanks for letting me know what to play around the most when piloting Kroxa And Kunoros

[@Savaniel]

I love coming here from the one-drop podcast where Crim was an outlier for rating Deathrite Shaman above everyone else (specifically because he thought it was solid graveyard hate) to this one where he's way below everyone else on the same card. Really changed from a year ago!

[@zylowolfzan3345]

I run Scavenger Grounds in all of my decks. The opportunity cost is minimal, and you have the ability to hold it up for instant speed. It does have the cost of needing to hold up the mana, but any graveyard deck ALWAYS needs to be aware of the Scavenger Grounds that can bop them, and dealing with lands is such a difficult thing for most decks, so it's much harder for the GY deck to clear it before popping off.

[@calvinbarboza]

The best Graveyard hate is Titania’s Command. It can ramp pump or make blockers and is never dead. If you need to exile multiple graves it can search up bog. If you need to reuse it, search up mystic Sanctuary. You also gain life to stabilize.

[@sharkydart]

Did Unlicensed Hearse get mentioned? I definitely run plenty of fetches if i include it, but Turn 1 Deathrite is still not a complete disappointment if i don't have a fetch - it has summoning sickness anyway, and *needs* to go out early to prepare to interact. Given the commanders at the table (how important it seems to have early interaction), can determine if opening deathrite needs to get shipped or not. The tiny group-slug on an innocent-looking 1/2 adds up; even if you're not removing a flashback spell (or mana-generator), people will be farseek'ing and casting incidental spells from turn 2 on with fair regularity, usually providing a target every single turn cycle. Don't always have an unused {B}, but when there is one, there is likely a target.

[@NineBreakertwo]

Unlicensed Herse so good, S tier graveyard hate and it gets huge

[@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860]

You guys missed BIG TIME on 2 amazing graveyard cards. Callous Bloodmage, and Canoptek Swarm. Callous is super flexible, can really come in clutch, either digging, putting blockers, or outright nuking a yard. Thats a lot of flexibility for a 2/1 at 3. Canoptek is a wincon on itself, for 4, you aren't just taking out a yard, you can get a huge army out of it. The best thing about it, is that it cares about stuff that stays in there much longer than creatures, making it more probable to actually trigger the tokens.

[@andrueurbane7361]

Lion Sash has the additional benefit in an equipment deck that is both a backup creature and a piece of equipment. Finding the creature/equipment balance isn't always straightforward forward and being able to be either helps smooth out the mix.

[@peewee0224]

He’s clearly never played lion sash before it’s a perfect equipment card

[@crawdaddy2004]

Ashiok doesn’t actually die very often, because people generally don’t care about it after it exiles the graveyards the first time.

[@FidoPhilanthropist]

I appreciate that Richard is attempting to grade these as a 'normal person' but that distance is just too great.

[@HComfy]

I love Richard’s takes. So crazy. So based. He invokes the wrath of the comment section every time. Atp I think he over-exaggerates to generate hate comments on the episodes.

[@boydstonsuleiman6008]

Callous Bloodmage? Tranquil Frillback? Kutzil's Flanker?

[@andrueurbane7361]

I like land-based graveyard hate most in black, then green, and somewhat in blue. Black has general tutors, and while you will rarely use them to get a land if you absolutely have to against the right match-up you can. Green has the best land tutors but you will only have many of these if it's part of your overall deck synergies (admittedly not too hard in green). Blue has Tolaria West, whose value goes up depending on what other powerful utility toolkit lands you may be playing.

[@PlaythroughsKing]

I'm with Richard and Crim on Bojuka Bog, I even had a situation where it just proved me how not worth it is: I'm playing my new Ancient one deck, have 15 cards in my graveyard and i get Bojuka bogged. Next turn i proceed to put another 15 cards in my graveyard and kill them with Ancient One. I feel nowadays bojuka bog is not worth cause graveyard decks can just...do it again what they have been doing the whole game, which is fill their grave again, where a Lantern would've prevented me or forced me to deal with it before killing someone

[@everrotatingsky]

Unfortunately couldn't find you guys talking about this episode on Twitter to comment: you guys didn't mention Lantern Of The Lost. in decks where i'm not using my own graveyard it's an upgrade over Soul-Guide Lantern. One or the other plus Bojuka Bog or Scavenger Grounds is my usual suite.

[@andrewgolubiewski3463]

The conversation around death right shaman is crazy. Some people clearly don't value flexible slots. The ability to hate the graveyard is what makes it acceptable that the mana dork side isn't always on. It shouldn't do all things amazingly, it's flexible. It's handy in multiple situations, which is why you value it.

[@sonchezz]

I think a lot of these type of hate cards are not worth it for 2 big reason. Some of these like Rest in Peace paint a target on the caster where either it or you need to be removed by someone and the more effective the hate is, the more likely to be a target you are. and if you're stopping multiple people you're more likely to get answered with no gain. The less effective, but more versatile cards that don't do anything outside of hate and don't directly advance your board position are simply not worth playing over other card slots since you won't run into that every game and no one is sideboarding in EDH. Besides that those tend to act similarly to one shot removal where you '1 for 1'ing is just not good in EDH. Cards like Farewell and Deathrite Shaman that can advance your board while providing grave removal are the strongest in most decks provided you want the other things the cards do. Next would probably be player removal to get rid of the overly powerful recursion player. Outside of that playing the strongest hate cards in some form of hate bears is probably the best option provided you understand that you or anything you're playing is likely to get removed for angering players, a la Crim.

[@cmhaist]

I like armored scrapgorger. It's a mana dork that exiles a card from a graveyard whenever it becomes tapped.

[@Infernoman64]

Richard with the galaxy brain thought process in regards to graveyard hate. the smart move is to politic your opponents into using theirs when it's convenient for you. Nautilod ship is LEGIT though. My Breya Vehicles deck loves it.

[@bartoffer]

I think Tomer and Seth are speaking from reality here with regards to casual EDH, highlighting how synergy with a deck's strategy is important. If I had to play in a meta where any and all non-fetchable taplands were utterly unplayable, I'd have probably dropped the game a long time ago. And look, I get it, in CEDH every last advantage is mined and it's as such a 500-card format, but why is that mentality being grafted onto non-competitive? Like, the cost of removing the Jarad/Meren player's graveyard... is one land coming into play tapped? Oh, sorry, Jarad/Meren are probably unplayable these days, so maybe that's a bad example. Richard and Crim seem to believe that a casual group is one in which each opening hand contains some combination of mana crypt, mana vault, force of will, force of negation, fierce guardianship, vampiric tutor, and each deck is a turn-3 infinite engine out of the command zone. I mean, yes, in a format where you have about 2 slots left in the deck after you fit all the staples in, sure, there's no room for any of these.

[@baconsir1159]

Hard to say Richard, Mr “just let them do their thing until it’s my turn” and “surely this fog will save me”, is speaking from an overly competitive mindset.

[@bartoffer]

@@baconsir1159 Except that those approaches are metagaming in the more literal sense (tactics, not card choices) for a group that tends to ignore him, durdle, draw cards at the cost of all else, and win primarily through alpha strikes. The way he evaluates cards otherwise basically discounts all synergy and deckbuilding choices in favor of raw goodstuff power. In his defense, he at least tries things out if people push back on his judgment.

[@ElDocBruh]

Tomer, how do you Rakdos Charm kill a player that attacks after an Akroma's Will when Akroma's Will gives the creatures lifelink 😅 (But yeah, it's a great card)

[@dementievatz]

Must be Akroma’s Will on the stack. Good note though!

[@hansrudolph8343]

Running animate deads etc. as graveyard hate in ur recursion slot is kinda legit - and might leave you with st really good on the board as well.

[@JoeGrimy]

I play a mini white sun titan styled deck and remorseful cleric does crazy work.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

I think the clash doesn't get how to use wheels. In the same way you don't just play a wrath when you have 20 creatures and everyone else has one, you need to know when to drop a wheel. Typically when your opponents have a lot of cards and you don't have many. Not only do you net more cards but you disrupt their game plan. When played right you can get make it an effective 3, 4, 5, even 6 or 7 for 1. Especially if you drop it right after an opponent has drawn a bunch of cards with Sea Gate or Blue Sun's style cards.

[@AzureAetherXx]

My biggest take away from this is that if you can't slot in the graveyard hate to have synergy with your decks gameplan its probably not worth playing on its own merits. However I do think that playing responsible magic is a thing that will help out more pods than hurt it.

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

Crims debate style consists of teasing and poking fun at stuff you do/say/like rather than actually making and refuting points LOL

[@AioliWashington]

Not even a mention to Unlicensed Hearse 😢 also Deathrite Shaman is crept out as a worse Armored Scrapgorger, which I would consider an S

[@Dewgma]

based true and real

[@peewee0224]

Deathrite shaman is better

[@zeroisnine]

Richard: Playing Graveyard hate make opponents kill you Also Richard: If you play Graveyard decks, I will just kill you Actually Richard: I play Loyal Companion and pass the turn

[@zeroisnine]

Dude is the definition of a parasitic player

[@nickjoseph77]

42:35 😂 Bojuka Bog is almost always an early turn, do nothing tapped land that pretends to be hate. I've never seen that mana rock before. Nice new card. I love cards like relic because they can sit out on the field waiting for the right time but they also can bring hate onto you depending on who you're playing against.

[@The_Warden]

I have literally never had a useful Bojuka Bog, it's always in my opening hand, or I don't see it. XD

[@baconsir1159]

My Bojuka Bog is never useful, but I’ve definitely been blown out by Bog plenty lol

[@jaarzy8875]

My boys! Always good to see y'all in my feed.

[@TransformersBoss]

Graveyard hate is pretty nice to have if you’re playing mill. “Oh, your Kozilek got milled and he’s going to shuffle your graveyard? Too bad it’s exiled!”

[@thatepicwizardguy]

Grafdigger's Cage seems like cascade/discover hate more than anything which... is kinda more relevant than ever? As graveyard hate whatever but it's gotta be a staple of answering the increasing number of freebies from the library?

[@Chaos303030]

Unfortunately, Grafdigger's doesn't do anything about Cascade/Discover because those effects put the card in exile before casting. It handles Future Sight effects and the rare Panglacial Wurm. 3 CMC Boromir, Rule of Law, and tax effects are a good way to hate on free spells, and Boromir has the upside of blanking many boardwipes or protecting key creatures - making him a much more reasonable incidental inclusion if you're not just a prison deck.

[@joshuadempsey5281]

Seth is 100% right in the Leyline/RIP discussion. Losing that slot in your deck to maybe ruin a graveyard deck is too closely to me. It’s kinda the same mentality as counterspells: don’t use your counters to stop the enemy’s progress, use them to protect your own win.

[@Shimatzu95]

Note for pit of offerings. With scampering surveyor (aka solemn at home) you can tutor for caves in any color.

[@lucascoutinho2441]

Deathrite Shaman is great at very high power tables and cEDH and bad anywhere else. Bojuka Bog is only worth the slot if you're playing green with crop rotation, bounce lands and extra land drops otherwise run the desert. Boardwipes that hit everything do work well against almost all strategies including most combo decks and a lot of graveyard decks but can lead to blowouts like Teferi's Protection, Clever Concealment, Eerie Interlude, Thrilling Encore, counterspells... Graveyard decks can also recur ramp like Sakura Tribe Elder and Solemn Simulacrum to easily rebuild after a boardwipe. My guess is Richard sees mostly go fast rage at R.I.P graveyard decks where they will take multiple turns to rebuild after a boardwipe and the combo decks he sees require set up which he also blowsup with his boardwipes and most non-blue players running at most one dodge a boardwipe card in their entire no tutor deck. Against graveyard decks that are build to go fast without concern for hate pieces you need them or a boardwipe desperately. Against graveyard decks build to be resilient you need the permanent ones specially if they are commander centric like Muldrotha.

[@thesuffering995]

Dang the DRS hate! This card is so good! It's an all-star in my Muldrotha deck. Life gain, drain and mana? It's amazing

[@peewee0224]

I have literally no idea. It’s the most powerful 1 drop of all time for a reason. It does literally everything

[@shawnpariseau9951]

Aww man. I was gonna mention that Urza saga can grab most of the good ones if you need them. But then, I thought about how there's so many more stronger cards to grab that actually aid your plan. If used the saga to grab soul guide, tormods, and stone of erech quite alot but I still think grabbing the sol ring was a better option.

[@shawnpariseau9951]

Also about deathrite shaman being bad, I play it all the time. The only lands I'm seeing hit grave yards are the myriad, evolving wilds... essentially the cheap basic land fetches. However, let's compare to a tormods crypt. You need someone to be playing a graveyard deck for crypt to be worth... deathrite doesn't require it to do something. Just the incidental cards hitting yards can create more value with deathrite even if the target is some goofy cantrip.

[@stevenkuykendall8673]

Richard saying Bojuka Bog is ok in green decks because you have crop rotation, but completely ignoring that black has the best unrestricted tutors in the game is killing me. I've absolutely tutored up my Bog with a Demonic Tutor before to stop the graveyard player.

[@Dewgma]

I literally cant believe you guys didn't mention the most overlooked card from Phyrexia All be one. Armored Scrapgorger, i run it in every single multicoloured green deck i have. Relevant early blocker, continous hate that draws removal, instantspeed graveyard pickoff. Can be buffed and still removes relevant graveyard cards WHILE attacking. I know some here have a giant hate for manadorks, but when manadorks have this much side-upside, im up for it. Even if its overcosted.

[@drkatz1192]

I’d just like to point out you can FLICKER BOJUKA BOG, bounce it to hand with a BounceLand, etc. BOJUKA Bog is the GOAT!

[@MrCrabguy]

My favorite pet graveyard hate card is Jötun Grunt, yeah it’s a creature and it’s really slow but it doesn’t seem to generate much threat at all. Most casual players enjoy having their cards put back in their library and it graveyard hates for multiple turns.

[@Lucarioguild7]

As a certified graveyard pervert™, I've been playing commander for a decade and almost all my decks are graveyard decks to various degrees, I'll throw in some thoughts: 1. Richard/Crim is absolutely right about bajuka bog, i can count the number of times I've been genuinely got by it on one hand from a decade of games. 2. Ashiok is absolutely brutal 3. Lion Sash/Scavenging Ooze are also both very backbreaking, being able to only exile 1/2 things a turn doesn't seem like much but can completely derail a turn. 4. Deathrite Shaman is good not great, I think Toner had it correctly graded at a B, play it in high power pods where fetches are plenty because first and foremost it's a mana dork with occasional gy hate upside.

[@andrewtaylor5883]

Although the card is limited....Cemetery Illuminator is a fantastic card! Flyer - Yard Hate - Top Deck Help! Slow but worth

[@TheUnknownMercinary]

I put soul-guide lantern in every deck. No graveyard players, it will usually hit a fetch land and replace itself. Against graveyards it is an asymmetric wipe.

[@plantsforhire2572]

Seth hit it right on the nose with regards to bojuka bog. Personally I think lands should not be included in this list because their primary function is being a land with occasional upside of hating on the graveyard. If bojuka bog was instead an MDFC for one swamp that nuked a graveyard at sorcery speed, the conversation would be extremely different. Lands should not take up slots when it comes to ramp, card draw, removal, etc because their primary function needs to be being a land for your land drops when you need it. When you flood out, great now they turn into decent effects. Kind of confused on crim and Richard’s take on this one, seeing how high they’ve been on MDFCs in the past.

[@d.a.d.-ohgosh]

Oh Richard and your controversial takes lol! You won me on STP but Bojuka Bog is a different story. Is Bojuka Bog S? Definitely not. Do you jam Bojuka Bog in your deck and call it a day on your graveyard hate? Hopefully not. However, Bojuka Bog is the epitome of an MDFC style card! My experience with the card goes like this. Draw it early on. I think to myself, oh darn. I won't get utility out of this, but at least it's a land. I draw it mid game. I see a graveyard with a couple decent cards in it. It's gone just by playing a land. I draw it late game. At that point a tapped source probably doesn't matter much and there's almost surely something I can hit. Most decks aren't graveyard decks, but A LOT of EDH decks care about their grave on some level. The only thing I would consider with this card is tapped land density in your deck and total colors.

[@chasm9557]

Some grave hate can be versatile in niche situations. I have a few pieces of mass hate in my Syr Konrad deck not only in case I play against another graveyard dependent deck, but also because I might get an opportunity to kill everyone with commander damage or infect if they aren't prepared. Drawing a random piece of grave hate in the late game is never a dead draw in that deck. Because of stuff like that, I think pieces of grave hate that can be manipulated to have different or extra beneficial effects for yourself should be rated higher.

[@ajespers426]

I found out yesterday that tokens still cause "dies" triggers with a Leyline of the Void out, since they aren't cards. Very weird. Also, a bit surprised no-one mentioned the ETB creature-based hate like Canoptek Scarab Swarm or Callous Bloodmage. Those are my go-to answers.

[@wowomah6194]

Honestly, we can get into the "casual vs competitive" EDH conversations, but in each of those formats, it should be without a doubt that if your deck relies very heavily on a certain strategy or cardtype and you are NOT putting in defensive options to protect your boardstate, you don't get the excuse of "omg but this is casual!" because MTG is still a card game where there are winners and losers built into the game. If you find your deck is just obliterated by spot removal or bounces or scary enchantments, then you HAVE to build in responses that can either remove that threat or hindrance OR build in enough redundancy that you have multiple ways to do something similar. The whole idea that "Well if you shut off graveyard useage and players get salty over that" that therefore it may be unfair is basically just saying that you have to think super carefully about YOUR deck but other players can just be lazy and not use any level of strategy in THEIR deck. The old adage of "play more interaction" still makes sense because it's a 4 player game where anyone who sits down might end up having cards that mess your deck up and you'll want to be ready for that. A game is far more fun when players are forcing each other to make tough decisions rather than everyone just playing a Real-Time Strategy game with perma-early-game walls up protecting each others' bases and then just racing to whoever can one shot each other first.

[@mjkuhnke]

I actually did switch over to scavenger grounds recently and noticed a big difference right away. Had a deck where a plain Desert was mildly useful utility so thought I'd toss it in for the slight extra synergy what a difference, bojuka bog somehow finds a way to make itself into the saddest turn 1 possible on a regular basis scavenger grounds I could just watch facial expressions to see it was doing it's job. Just like how maze of ith keeps people from attacking you without ever tapping it, Scavenger grounds had opponents counting my mana every turn and doing nothing out of fear. Was like a perpetual pre-counter for the self mill and graveyard decks

[@alex.sanders]

Thank you guys for acknowledging that Cryptic Incursion + Vito is pretty good. I've won so many games with that! (Vito is my commander)

[@crawdaddy2004]

6:50 I was playing Muldrotha when someone landed a Rest in Peace on turn 2. I wasn’t salty, but I was very bored. If you’re playing a graveyard deck, expect someone to try to stop you.

[@Yukamii]

So the problem with alot of these grave hates that are opressive is that the ones being used are enchantments. The grave decks are mainly black meaning removing the enchantment is a very hard and almost impossible feat. Getting into golgari you kinda can but alot of the removal is slim or misses one of them because of cmc or stipulation