Metagame Your Friends Without Them Knowing | Commander Clash Podcast 131

[@BrewersKitchen]

I guess I better pack some Stripmines for those Homeward Paths 😆

[@mikaeljordan]

sneakingly viewing the vodcast!

[@metatron8578]

Just Armageddon after taking their stuff.

[@thegreatestblood]

Hate on the hate!

[@hallowedmist4289]

I misread this as shrimpmine and didn't know what I was missing out on but totally wanted to be a part of it

[@bartoffer]

Better to send a message - Alpine Moon them instead.

[@Enos666]

23:24 - I rarely if ever side with Crim on whether a card is acceptable or not in commander but I totally agree with him on this one, Urza's Sylex should be an acceptable ramp hate and sweeper. Fall of the Thran is much less acceptable because it slows down the game substantially, lands come back slowly over multiple turns and can easily be comboed with graveyard hate to essentially end the game without ending the game immediately.

[@erichluepke855]

I've never played commander but when I see the ramp decks going off, as a long time viewer I want to see a nerfed Armageddon go off, and this is it. I can't remember seeing it before on CC but I hope I do.

[@williamgressman4001]

Fall of thran and armageddon are also perfectly acceptable :) I have never personally played either, but I have had them played against me and I honestly don't mind.

[@davidwipperfurth8465]

I agree with crim, Sylex is basically lower power than even boompile. If it's just replacing an actual good sweeper in your deck, I don't think you'd see much hate from playing it.

[@Jug_or_not]

I would jam this without a second thought. It is symmetrical and 6 lands still let you play. it just punishes the ramp player

[@MakeVarahHappen]

How is this worse than Boompile?

[@zym6687]

@@MakeVarahHappen Costs more, costs colored mana to activate, can only sorcery speed, have to play white to include it

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@zym6687 you forgot the big one: actually kills the board

[@DylanHunter64]

When I started playing Commander, my first commander was Oloro and I played it so often that my friends started playing Tainted Remedy in every deck lol

[@bartoffer]

Sylex is... like, what, a quarter? There's a reason for that - it's not actually that powerful of an effect for 7 mana. If someone's deck can't rebuild on six mana, then it's probably a deck built around one-shotting the table in a single turn that the fog meta would similarly foil.

[@DaxRaider]

jaeh but u rly slow down the green ramp deck. its amazing

[@bartoffer]

​@@DaxRaider The issue is, you also slow down everyone else, and the green deck will likely have the easiest time rebuilding. It can kneecap all-in green ramp strategies, who've maybe dumped their hand, but I think the best way to use Sylex is to make it asymmetrical with indestructible / phase-out effects.

[@chriszhang4822]

Prob just me, but the topics you guys have been doing in 2024 is pure 👏👏

[@jorgecrespoapastegui]

Seth: "I don't like you personally..." Crim: "But that's the message" Nah, I love this guy.

[@PensFan96]

Sheoldred is a Tutor check, the way to beat it is to Tutor your answer rather than draw into it. Crim says he hates tutors but honestly if there is a Sheoldred/Orc meta, that's the way to counter it.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Life gain is also an easy counter to Sheoldred, but not to Bowmasters.

[@vaporeon344]

It is hilarious that Crim hates confounding conundrum, cause we all know if that card had flash, he’d be head over heels.

[@jonasl9068]

If it was a better card then yes he would like it. I would like many cards too if they were just straight up better.

[@vaporeon344]

@@jonasl9068 I mean it’s moreso the fact that the style seems right up his alley, but it’s sorcery speed. It’s like the Teferi’s protection stopping creature that came out recently.

[@DylanHunter64]

Zero percent chance players get salty at Urza's Sylex

[@Kryptnyt]

Players will get salty at anything, but I agree that there's a zero percent chance there will be justified salt

[@allnightgamer792]

So our table has a dedicated Group Hug deck and as a meme we slotted in Telepathy and it ended up being the best group hug card in the deck. Some one played it and when we all saw each others hands we were all helping each other play like "No you shouldn't play that, you should play this and then that" and coaching each other's hands xD

[@hanschristopherson8056]

On confounding conundrum, believe it or not but land ramp is much less broken in 2024 when we have a million two mana rocks and treasures

[@Shimatzu95]

Also fair, been a while since i last saw a artifact wipe specifically

[@maxrichard2244]

4:29 I smile every time Richard lets out that little "what?!"

[@andrueurbane7361]

This episode is misnamed. It should be named "Metagame Phil without him Knowing".

[@nathand6467]

"The team records their conspiring against Phil".

[@VagrantKing]

Richard, I’m literally working on a deck whose entire purpose is to tutor, cast, and copy Price of Progress (and Acidic Soil) 😂 Once killed two players on turn 6 with a cast and copy of it. I LOVE that card ❤

[@TenshiArix]

Yes! Insight is so good, I've played it for a while now to great effect. Its a secondary Rhystic Study, sometimes even better! Glad to see it on the list!

[@calvinbarboza]

If you are playing landfall, the best card you could see your opponent play is Confounding Conundrum.

[@jonart8433]

Another daily reminder that Blood Moon is casual against casual decks.

[@alexandrelima2766]

Contamination though, still great! :)

[@ToSGod]

Blood moon is a great equalizer.

[@k9commander]

Against the people I normally play, Blood Moon and Price of Progress are speed bumps at best.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

Simply having a lot of non basics does not mean non casual.

[@alexandrelima2766]

@@Dragon_Fyre casual is a meaningless term anyways, there's no official competitive tournaments for commander so everything is casual

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Toxic Deluge is NOT strictly better than Nature's Ruin. Being able to NOT destroy your own things during a board wipe is super powerful, it's WHY Cyclonic Rift is the best board wipe.

[@johnathanreynolds1108]

Love that crim is taking a stand for all us control and stax players😂

[@alexandrelima2766]

My god yes, it's so depressing seeing the clash crew talking about it is allowed and considering you opponents feelings when the goal is to CRUSH THEM

[@Sweetguy1821]

It's so obnoxious when my friends cry about stax pieces, I also don't like it when no one else plays interaction and just lets the person in the lead snowball out of control.

[@alexandrelima2766]

@@Sweetguy1821 same here!

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@Sweetguy1821Legitimate complaint but they’re not comparable. STAX is intentionally making the game not fun (it prevents opponents from being able to play, something a minority of players are OK with in EDH) where opponents not having enough removal is just a bad deck.

[@johnathanreynolds1108]

@@Dragon_Fyre fun is subjective .. I don't have fun watching people try to vomit their hand or library unto the battlefield or watching combos go off.. I have fun playing stax( taxing and resource denial) and punishing my opponent for casting spells - hence liesa or talion are right up my ally. My fun doesn't need to be your fun; likewise , your fun doesn't need to be mine either. Just have to be able to co-exist without ripping each other's throats out ! Anedcotely, most stax players only have 1 or 2 stax decks that are played intermittently.. we still have other decks with different archetypes to be amenable to the usual play styles that people gravitate towards.

[@eon2330]

I ran confounding conundrum..... the enemy also used it to combo off. The issue is any deck that plays X lands per turn, will use this like their own play land from crucible of worlds + fetch land style combo for 1 card, yours. The issue is they can tap then land for mana before the bounce. So each land is a ritual. Each bonus land play is an infinite amount of rituals. It doesn't stop the mana. So its useless except vs the cards that search the deck to play lands. Which because its not 1 mana, will come out before your stax piece if you don't go first. Its a situational, situational, situational anti-land ramp. Its anti, turn 3+, search your deck land ramp for tapped lands.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

In a blind pod, odds are every single color is at the table.

[@danielbaker5365]

I think that blow up lands artifact is totally fine. You do this against a bunch of low cost decks im pretty sure you still lose because 6 lands is alot

[@UrielColeridge]

Random color hosers are great. They are offset by the fact that they usually don't affect someone's entire gameplan, and they will outright not pay for themselves in a surprising amount of games.

[@williamgressman4001]

urza's sylex is perfectly acceptable, dropping back to 6 is a perfectly acceptable situation.

[@alexandrelima2766]

I maintain that conundrum should exile instead of bounce

[@Shimatzu95]

Or pot on top of deck

[@JustARandomMexican]

Six lands is super fair.

[@PensFan96]

6 lands is totally fair, honestly 6 is probly not enough to really make a difference. We need sac to 4

[@ms.sysbit5511]

Keldon Firebombers is a solid version of this effect. Natural Balance too.

[@holstenmason]

If I lose to acid rain or nature’s ruin I’m laughing, playing these cards is objectively funny.

[@J3P]

I play compost and Insight in almost every deck thats blue or green. The cards are insanely strong. Sure they COULD be dead but it's a risk I'm willing to take. Most pods want all colors to be represented.

[@MattWilliams747]

So are we just going to ignore the fact this episode didn’t touch on the fact Tomer is actively trying to meta game the other goldfish into Kiki Combo every week all last season.

[@khub5660]

The title is spot on. Even if your friends know you're metagaming them, it leads to more interesting and interactive games. Having everyone metagame against each other not only exposes the players involved to new cards and strategies, but it also encourages making conscious deckbuilding choices instead of just throwing in a bunch of auto includes. We do this in my playgroups, and it's always been a blast. It keeps everyone on their toes and prevents a player from winning all the time

[@VRanger100]

Best part of hate cards in the main deck is discarding them and not having any feelsbad. Imagine pitching Insight to your Force of Will because no one is playing Green.

[@slightgraph89]

"why wouldn't i play a good card" is a great response, but I really enjoy silver bullet type stuff, like maelstrom pulse that doesn't do anything special until you run into a rats, nazguls, or go wide with one or two types of token deck, where the preparation and sacrificing one of the 99 becomes so satisfying

[@IzzetTempo]

I’ve cast Circle of Protection: Green like 4 times in commander and every time it is super impactful. Would recommend!

[@slygore]

My favorite Notion Thief play was Arcane Denial into Notion Thief on the upkeep

[@havendell]

One of the first decks I built from scratch was Go-Shintai of Life's Origin. To this day my playgroup has boarded in very powerful enchantment hate in almost every deck.

[@GreyOrb]

It's the people that get to play commander ALOT that are okay with hate cards. If you get to play maybe once a month if you're lucky, cutting a game short due to a card randomly ruining your deck can be a real downer.

[@johnathanreynolds1108]

Mean I only play once a month anymore if that and I still enjoy playing hate cards or them being played against me.( Still get like 2-4 games in that day) Though a few years back I use to play twice week 🤷 However, I do understand the sentiment of wanting to do the cool thing or see your deck pop off especially if you don't play that much!

[@marshallscot]

People really just need to play more removal in their decks. Green is supposedly the most popular color and has the best removal for artifacts and enchantments, yet people are constantly complaining about one or two cards shutting down the game.

[@xNemesiSxPR]

price of progress is such an amazing card. given me so many wins. one of them i won out of nowhere and a friend was like wtf where you got that card from, didnt even knew existed (he is more new to magic, not new really but like ravnica or close de second one).

[@samsprague3158]

Would love to see a “Hands Revealed” episode of Clash!! I wonder what type of decks y’all would pick for that theme?

[@Cybertech134]

Take a shot every time Richard says "riiiiitee? 😂😂😂"

[@mehra6712]

In my Rukaramel deck I put an Angel of Glory's rise so that I can reanimate my whole graveyard by making them all humans... But also my friend coincidentally plays Wilhelt zombies.... 😬

[@daxamlhant7285]

One of the decks I play most is a llawan cephilad empress that runs almost all of the color hosing cards it can. While the goal of the deck is to change the color words to be the best for the pod, I've found that almost all of them are good before changing. The only one I think is bad without changing its color is baleful stare

[@memonk100]

Green might not have farewell but it does have Titania's Song to destroy artifacts

[@Herskaa]

Creeping Corrosion

[@marshallscot]

Also Fade from History, and a a dozen other single target removal for artifacts and enchantments. 3/5 of the color pie has the ability to totally blow out enchantments and artifacts. If a couple little stax pieces shut down the game, then that is simply sloppy deck destruction on the part of the other 3 players.

[@zaclock-4228]

Color hosing is my specialty: I play many, even outside of my actual color-hosing deck. - Insight: Zedruu enchantress, if no one plays green, I can give it without risks. - Pyroblast / REB: any red deck that rummages a lot, which means 3 of my decks! - Reap in my gruul spellslinger deck that rummages a lot. - Compost & Carpet of Flowers: Green Enchantress: worst case scenario, I cycle it once I have an enchantress in play. - Soul Rend: in Killian budget, can be cycled for 1 worst case scenario. - Submerge: great removal in blue if my theme doesn't give me access to better synergistic options. - Dream Tides, Elephant Grass: they're just good cards with the upside of hosing a color.

[@samuelbemis8304]

I love insight, I play it in my Blind Seer commander deck where I'm running cards that change the color words or cards already, so like, can change the "green" on insight to whatever is the most common colour amung my opponents

[@Roll-Penut]

Insight is such a good and underrated card. It's like a Rhystic study except not annoying everyone. It's useless sometimes, but the times when it's good, it's ALWAYS good

[@Roll-Penut]

Immediately after this I saw crim having the exact same reaction to price of progress as I did

[@PalPlays]

I metagame my decks against each other. Scooze/Sash to stop Marchesa, Nils to stop Ishai, ect. We have enough options that we can tailor the hate or protection we would already be running for our specific metagame.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The odds that Karn, The Great Creator is not the most dangerous permanent on the battlefield are real low.

[@khub5660]

It's usually more of an annoyance than anything else. If they follow up with a Liquimetal Coating or a Mycosynth lattice though, then everyone's in for a rough time

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@khub5660 Annoyances win games.

[@T_Peazy]

27:44 Blood Moon is a stax piece. It locks you into a game where you do nothing. PoP kills you.

[@Soulus101]

I once played a Blightbeetle against my friend playing The Swarmlord. I believe that was the last game of magic he ever played.

[@WokedOx]

I fought through all of the hate and just played it so many times that Armageddon is now acceptable in our playgroups.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Armageddon isn't the answer to ramp decks people act like it is because your screwing over two players for the sins of a third.

[@WokedOx]

@@MakeVarahHappen im not answering ramp decks... Im answering all decks. They can stare at me with distaste all they want, they cant do anything about it

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@WokedOx That's like. You're bad at playing wraths and your games sound awful as you keep blowing your load for no reason.

[@kobyogan8811]

Almost get to hear Crim say "if you Choke me, I'll laugh"

[@beerman2000]

3/4 of these cards aren't even hate cards. Benefit to me based on your deck construction, with no detriment to you is not a hate card

[@MagicalHackerMTG]

Compost and Insight are much better in multiplayer than in 1v1. I play both as much as I can, and they both draw me tons of cards almost every time.

[@zachweaver9537]

I think Compost is a hell of a lot better than Insight. Especially if you luck out and find a reanimator opponent.

[@MagicalHackerMTG]

@@zachweaver9537 I've been playing both for about a year and a half now, and Compost is certainly better, but Insight is still very good

[@Saetanigera]

confounding conundrum doesn't stop fetches as they can be used on an opponents turn

[@foxrogge6298]

This is unrelated to the podcast, but a good card like spirited companion is woodland acolyte, and it has more flexibility to get cards from your graveyard

[@9-b_b-9]

👏Normalize👏balance👏effects👏

[@imaginarymatter]

Part of the reason why I would like to see wishboards allowed in EDH is so you could add cool silver bullet cards that don't quite fit the main deck.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I love the ".mp4" in the video title. : )

[@haroun1760]

I think Urza's Sylex is the one exeptable mass land destruction, and think they should print more of these type of cards, not to much but a few, biggest problem with boardwipes against land matters decks or land ramp decks is that they will win after everything is destroyed because they have more mana. This is fare and doesnt start the game over. I agree with Crim

[@magiclover9346]

I have played confounding conundrum many times and never ran into the value land player. It's been so effective it's in almost all my decks that have blue without green. There is also straight up so much search hate in black and red that people will prioritise those hate pieces first. The green player will auto target the Ashiok or Aven Mindscensor player. It prevents them from ramping and fixing. Price of Progress and Mercadia's Downfall are two of my favourite red cards.

[@robertnixilis1760]

Telepathy sometimes sends your opponents against each other because they see these big bomby threats which can be scarier than your hidden cards in hand. Doesnt always work, but it can sometimes behave as a fog lol.

[@DrLizaroj]

Confounding conundrum might be a case of bias, as when it works, the smart player won’t play into it unles they just forget/didn’t see it. So, as the one playing it, you’ll only see when your opponent plays into it accidentally or on purpose to play off it. When it works, you don’t notice unless an opponent says something. Though, I’d still think twice to run it personally

[@thomaswren8508]

I play conundrum as land destruction with field of ruin in my river song deck

[@Sivarias]

Ime, Insight, Reap, and Compost are very rarely dead draws, and are often a rhystic study 2.0 The color hate that draws cards is largely worth it in my experience. I also agree with tomar about confounding conundrum. I've seen people bounce channel lands, and then just not use them because the conundrum actively helps with them.

[@redram9]

If your commander exiles artifacts, Karn, the Great Creator is a great pickup. Osgir, the Reconstructor exiles artifacts to make two copies and Karn rebuys that artifact. Of course, the hate on Karn is just a random upside(or downside) at that point

[@alexsalerno4053]

Trying to wipe lands benefits landfall decks because they recover faster and use the lands in their graveyard. In my experience the best way to deal with landfall decks is to try to limit their other resources vs the other players: rule of law effects, discard effects like Kroxa or sire of insanity, or group hug cards that let the other players keep pace.

[@13rym26]

I think the biggest problem with sylex that might make feel bads is if you are playing against someone with a 6+ mana, whether naturally or because it died previously, commander on the field. They wouldn't be too happy about needing to find 2+ more mana to get it out again if they already had the means previously.

[@archangelstyx7828]

21:13 why does Tomer gotta call out my windgrace deck like that

[@douglassmith8069]

Richard: "insight is like Rhystic study on crack. It could be a 3 mana draw 12" Rhystic study "triggers on ever spell not just green ones" "generally draws a metric f-ton of cards"

[@TheSassaboss]

Karn Lattice is Asymmetrical, basically the same as a Lattice Vandalblast. Very different than an Ouphe or Stony Silence

[@almogdov]

I'm playing Confounding Conundrum in my Council of Four deck and it's nice. It works with my commander and prevents my opponents to go too crazy with the cards I give them, especially since I also play Ghirapur Orrery to play all the extra lands I draw.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

compost and insight arent hate cards. and they DEFINITELY are not "color hosing." for an example of an actual color hosing card, Flooded Woodlands. "green creatures can't attack unless their controller sacrifices a land"

[@marimi46]

Urza's Sylex is totally fair and underplayed imo

[@williamshie4326]

34:50 I mean, we all talk about how fast mana pretty much defines the power level of you deck, so shutting down mana rocks is all fair. It is an overall strong card but in a casual match it will be a 4 mana PL that shuts down 2, 3 artifacts (and maybe an artifact player) but it is a planeswalker which on a casual level I feel is easier to interact than enchantments (Stony Silence).

[@thetrinketmage]

Playing stuff that hates on counterspells with stuff like Vexing shusher is really strong! And usually worth it!

[@jasonhart543]

Tunnel Ignus for the landfall decks. Rug of Smothering for storm meta.

[@Chefvonbreezy]

Urzas sylex is underrated asf i run it in every format including 60 card. Blow up everything drop a land after drop planeswalker. Happy guy.

[@jsato4921]

Confounding conundrum is Hilarious when used with grouphug. Slap that down and pay 3 mana into a Collective Voyage.

[@Magnet977]

Crim: "Six lands is more lands than I've had whole commander games!" Yeah, but Crim's relationship with actually hitting land drops is kind of abnormal and maybe we shouldn't take it as the standard lol. Jokes aside, I think Sylex could be acceptable at some tables.

[@DRAGHNALL]

100% my play group meta games against each other. Me and another player picked up the enchantment Cold Snap because a lot of players in the group invested in snow-covered lands in a lot of their decks, lol 😂. Then we saw a decline/mixing of normal basic lands after about a year.

[@ALTR_no_EGO]

I have a Sunforger based Boros burn deck. I run 21 basics, and a few copy spells. Fury Storm and Price of Progress ends games. Price of Progress ends games.

[@DrukenReaps]

I don't metagame much but one friend plays Zacama and if I don't interact with it specifically it will take over the game. I've literally built entire decks because of his zacama deck xD

[@dislikebutton9571]

I play pyroblast in mono red because its creature/enchantment destruction and counter-counter magic.

[@nicolusebrink9997]

I metagamed by playing "The Urdragon" as my 5 colour commander just because i needed a 5 colour commander and it had flying. One guy in my playgroup just loved angels and dragons so the flying was enough to justify playing it.

[@Karolinaaaaaaaaaaaa]

_Sees thumbnail:_ "Why yes, I hate cards too!"

[@Cjtip26]

Compost, insight, and viridian revel are a staples in my enchantress.😂

[@thatepicwizardguy]

I mean... I'd run Red Elemental Blast in every red deck even without the guarantee of a blue player at the table lol I'm willing to risk having a couple random dead cards if it means I can destroy somebody sometimes EDIT: agree with Crim. Sylex is more than fine. if you slammed me with that I'd be cool with it EDIT2: Homeward Path is better than Reliq Tower or whatever a fair amount of the time. There's a ton of reanimation and theft out there. I'm not holding 10 cards in hand as often as I'm losing a creature to somebody else at the table.

[@adriendelplace8755]

I love confounding conundrum it's close to an auto include for me in blue

[@addictedtomints9433]

I think Urza's sylex is totally fair. It doesn't even exile the lands.

[@regail7143]

As a control player, Crim gives us a worse image than necessary. Control isn't just proactively hating every archetype that keeps you up at night...Especially in commander, running asymmetrical hate pieces is a fast way to become archenemy and die as a result. That's not playing control, it's just trolling people.

[@Tupiaz]

There is a difference between running cards which hits asymmetrical and deck building your deck to be hit asymmetrical by symmetrical cards. Crim might want to tilt people but he likes do the later much more than the former.

[@DCII]

Desolation? I keep putting it in and taking it out of my Windgrace deck because it can draw some extreme salt, but it can give me that slight edge in the mid game to help me get a win. Obviously early game it can really screw up a lot of decks, especially mono white, but it is symmetrical and I've actually lost a game because I played it too early. It can be played around if you've built your deck right.

[@highshelf]

Love playing back to basics in my mono blue decks

[@highshelf]

And confounding conundrum

[@Kroxti]

Confounding conondrum I love when I see across the table in my green decks. Yes I would like to get multiple landfall triggers sure but the real use is reusing nkythos multiple times. Last week I had an Azusa on the field and a nykthos in hand, so turn was play a 3 visits, play nkythos, tap nykthos, bounce nkythos. Repeat 3 times. Cast genesis wave for 30.

[@maninblk]

Slight of Mind... One blue mana, and any color-specific card will gain color choice.

[@representativejoints1188]

I run carpet of flowers, in enchantress it probably replaces itself if it's not generating mana.

[@JEDWOLFF]

Day three of asking goldfish crew to rank alternate basic land art!!

[@ringoderbar1522]

You know what would be a cool CC theme? "No cards that we played this season" Like all new cards for that season. then you would have think outside the box, and it not that difficult logistically. just but all decklists of one season in one folder and search cards if they were played this season

[@toddherink4234]

I personally run the Hushbringer series for their vicious hatred of blink