Hacking & Stop Seconds: Good or Bad?

A stop second mechanism may be in your watch to help get a more precise setting … but is it a good thing for your watch’s movement?

[@juniorjohnson5961]

It doesn't bother me if a watch doesn't have Hacking , After you're explanation I'm even less concerned , I don't do anything that needs to be that precise ! Thanks for the explanation 👍

[@watchartsci]

At the end of the day, Junior, two watches that synchronized using stop seconds are likely to be several seconds different from one another. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@blueshirtbuddah1665]

Great video Bill. I don’t care what F.P. Journe says. Hacking should have no effect on a modern watch movement. New Patek, VC and Zenith El Primero movements now all feature hacking. For my Omega Speedmaster Professional that doesn’t have hacking, I back hack the movement to set the precise time. The key for doing this is not to wind the watch more than a couple of times before you do it. Thanks as always Bill.

[@watchartsci]

Bruce, you know I was thinking of your Bluesey ... that 28,800 vph oscillating balance happily speeding along and then getting slammed by the metal brake ...the humanity! ... I mean ... the horology!😉 I kid! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@wingkintang7257]

Journe and many artisan they slow down the movement to 3 hertz or lower to showcase a bigger balance wheel so I think that it was part of their rational to not have a hacking.

[@AbdulRWatches]

Great topic Bill, I think it is important if you want to always precisely set your watch to the atomic clock. I think every modern watch should have a seconds zeroing complication, i would rather have that than hacking/stop seconds.

[@watchartsci]

Abdul, my FPJ Resonance has second-zeroing, and it has it for a set of two seconds dials; not one. So I agree with you second-centering isn't as onerous as hacking and far more useful. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@missakhaladjian]

I was looking to buy the new panerai luminor, and i saw how some people were down talking that it no longer has hack. Now i feel even better the new p9010 doesn't have it, a useless feature anyways.

[@TimG--]

Great topic. I do like hacking but Pateks don’t have it! Yes a brake on a San Franscisco Trolly Car made of oak OR a manual emergency brake on a car. Great video. Nice video mate

[@watchartsci]

Stage coaches have visible brakes on the outside ... easy to see and understand. Used to ride every conceivable type of public transportation when I lived in San Francisco ... including Cable Cars, Jitney buses, and trolleys, electric busses ... wonderful city to get around. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@Nefville]

This is extremely interesting. When I first started collecting hacking was important to me but now I really don't care as much as its more about the art than the function for me. Very informative and well presented, thanks.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Nefarion, thanks man! Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@arielcandoleta5347]

After watching this, I did learn to appreciate my Seiko 7S26 powered watch without hacking aeconds even more. Letting the watch run out of power is the best way to go before setting it again. Thanks Bill.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Ariel, let the mainspring stretch its legs. Take care, Bill

[@firefighterps2]

So this is not only the ultimate venue to learn about time pieces, but stage coaches now? Cool. Ps Doing anything in life abruptly is usually a bad idea. I vote no on hacking.

[@watchartsci]

Stage coaches were used because their breaking system is visible on the outside and employ the exact same principle used with stop seconds. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@samkluckson3621]

Great video! Genius advice about letting the watch run down, and then setting before winding. I think I’ll do that from now on!

[@watchartsci]

Your main spring will stay fully "springy" that way too, Sam! Take care, and be safe, Bill 😷

[@klickme888]

Hi Bill, another informative and fun video! I prefer having hacking function such that the second hand and minute hand may sync up. I have two watches that do not hack: Vacheron Constantin Overseas 4500V and Zenith Chronomaster El Primero 38mm. When I take them out from the watch box to wear, I would remember to check the position of the second hand first, look at the standard time, then start shaking the watch when the second hand position matches with the correct time. After that, I will adjust the other hands and the date. So, not having hacking doesn't bother me now. Cheers!

[@watchartsci]

Henry, those sound like two of your top watches. I hope that VC doesn't cave in and add hacking. The Overseas 5100 doesn't have hacking either, nor does my VC '21 with the VC 4400 movement.Take care, and be safe, Bill 😷

[@derekrolle6705]

Hi Bill, I rarely hack my watches. I have not found the need to synchronize to the second. Typically I set my watches from the stopped position, then wind. I actually didn’t realize that hacking was such a violent action on the balance wheel. That’s good to know. Great topic, as always.

[@watchartsci]

Derek, doing it way demonstrates that you take great care of your watches. Down the line after other's watches balance wheels have been slapped silly by the stopping break, your's will still have the chronology they were meant to have. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@jeffreyblue627]

Amen.

[@gilbertombp]

Interesting point Bill. I guess it's a trade-off: flexibility for accuracy's sake versus longevity of the movement. I'm sure that those watch companies who chose to install hacking seconds know the pros and cons, and that somehow they've mitigated the potential damage it does to their movements. If I remember correctly what I once read, the Germans are obsessed with accuracy and precision, to the point that hacking seconds is a requirement for the German chronometer certification.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Gilberto ... someone would have to be terribly ham-fisted not to be able to set a decent mechanical watch so that he'd never be late to an appointment. So far I haven't been late because of a watch setting ... of course if I get distracted by cat videos ... I might be a little late. Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@jeffreydeanstanton3229]

Excellent explanation ! Thankyou !

[@watchartsci]

My pleasure Jeffrey! Take care, Bill

[@bubbab7792]

Agree with you, Bill. Never really thought about what it does to the balance. I don't have a timepiece in my collection at this time that i would worry about. 👍

[@watchartsci]

I suppose, Bubba, that after getting beaten like a rented mule because of a dubious obsession with 'accuracy,' the balance would be less accurate. No? Take care, and be safe, Bill 😷

[@southnc63]

Up until recently, Patek was also against hacking in their movements, many of which continue to be non-hacking; such as cal 215 & 240 based watches. Patek 5235 does hack, with their newer movements. Modern materials mean less stress on a hacking movement. For precise setting without stopping the balance, A Lange & Sohne came up with a clever solution that disengages the seconds from the drive train, much like a simple chronograph: Richard Lange Zero Restart “Referenzuhr”

[@watchartsci]

Yes, that's a solution that Lange had ... expensive and adding more parts, Southnc. A simple experiment would be to compare two like watches: one with and one without hacking. Check their accuracy at T1 and then again at T2. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@demetresmichael8235]

Really great channel with very nice content keep up the good work !!

[@watchartsci]

Hey Demetres, thanks man! Take care, and be safe, Bill 😷

[@Sams911]

so do you think this is why the VC 5100 and 5200 new in-house movements don't have stop seconds? not some sort of cost cutting thing?

[@watchartsci]

My FP Journes have no stop seconds, either. For years, Patek Philippes had no stop seconds because the engineers pointed out the the "brake" slamming against the balance wheel was not necessarily healthy for the movement. (Imagine a stage coach brake thrust against the wheel, Guy.) Take care, Bill

[@th3nobodi3]

Fully agreed - I wish all my watches didn't have hacking. Your tip on only setting the time when the balance is still is a great one.

[@watchartsci]

Hi 3-Bodi! Our watches are too expensive not to take the best care of them. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@pianoman2640]

Hi Bill. Very interesting video. I have two hand winds that don't hack that I used the method you described to accurately set the time. A Maurice Lacrois Pontos and a Zeno Piot watch. Both has the Unitas 6498 movement. It worked but I always felt that I could be damaging the movement. Don't wear them much any more but they still work. Lucky I didn't screw them up lol.

[@watchartsci]

That Unitas 6498 is a sweet movement, John ... love it! If two hacking watches were synchronized ... they should be compared after 24 hours. The seconds hands are likely to differ; so where's the precision? Anyone who uses their iPhone to set their watches has more precision that they'll ever get from a mechanical watch. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@ForbinColossus]

Ultimate question is "does it in fact cause wear to the balance?" Dissection of a movement should answer this. Other question: Can the movement be stopped before the force gets to the balance wheel? For example, can the unwinding spring be stopped? That may be how you're doing it in back-hacking, but I am guessing here...

[@watchartsci]

Start with basic physics ... save some time, Forbin. Then second stop arm being the "stick" and the balance being the "piñata," Now dissect the poor creature if you wish... Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@ForbinColossus]

@@watchartsci Journe says they take up space yet he included a self-winding module!

[@watchartsci]

@@ForbinColossus Yes Forbin, but the rotor was above all the "works" and took little space ... did you see the size of that balance wheel? Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@visiblemode]

Imo, it’s a balance between adding function and at the same time complication/shortening of service interval. My guess is that under typical use a watch would require servicing for other reasons before hacking would damage anything enough to prompt any kind of intervention. At the time of otherwise scheduled/required intervention whatever potential issues caused by hacking are likely easily addressed. As a result the wear and tear argument seems far fetched to me. A far more convincing point is how it impacts watch design. The space required for the mechanism has an effect on the overall dimensions of the watch and potentially even on the stability/accuracy by impacting the amount of total space available for balance wheel size. Ultimately I think that even this second point is pretty unimportant as there are countless brilliant watches that hack and the argument becomes entirely theoretical as to “how great they might be if the weren’t held back by the hacking mechanism.” Much like the the argument against the need for hacking-level setting accuracy, this argument is defeated by the same idea. If a watch is already remarkably accurate, would a larger balance wheel make an substantive difference anyway? Hacking brings me pleasure and in the end that’s all this hobby is about. A $5 Casio could do what these things do, and more efficiently/accurately. It’s the small pleasures of the hobby that make all the difference. That said your pleasure might alternately come from babying the mechanism and knowing that you as as gentle as humanly possible on it, and that is every bit as valid.

[@watchartsci]

Vismode...no need for an elaborate discourse: hacking is because users want it. I see no horological merit in it at all. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@visiblemode]

Gotcha. That’s my cue.

[@rickonwatches9932]

Patek has begun to incorporate hacking sec in many of their new or updated movements.

[@watchartsci]

Rick, isn't that because of the market pressure and not improved horology? Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@bartglover22]

Hacking is just another feature of movements that is at this stage is redundant. In today’s world with electronic timing does it serve any real life function, I don’t think so. The lack of that feature would not stop me from buying a particular watch. Thanks for the very informative video.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Bart, thanks man! For precision, we can all use our smart phones.😉 Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@TetrixJ]

I never really thought of hacking like that, its really eye opening! Thanks bill! Now I'm kind of skeptical of my El primero 21 that DOES hack.... and not only does it hack the standard time telling but the lightning seconds escapement at 360,000 vibrations has a break to start and stop it!

[@watchartsci]

Hi Tetrix! My El Primero 400 doesn't hack. I didn't think that Zenith watches hacked. If it's at 360,000 vph I wouldn't want my watch to hack. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@amirdoust]

I was so bummed to see the Patek 5227 I bought brand new was updated from the 324sc movement to the 26-330 movement after just a month.

[@watchartsci]

After only a month Amirdoust?! What advantages, if any, does the 26-330 have? Take care, Bill

[@amirdoust]

apparantly the hacking seconds is the biggest upgrade and second hand trembles less

[@watchartsci]

@@amirdoust I avoid watches with hacking seconds. Even the engineers at Patek told them of the problem with a break coming down on the balance wheel (hacking ... the arm comes down like a hack.) FP Journe watches have no hacking seconds.

[@andycandyOK]

great vid, love it

[@watchartsci]

Hey AndyMan! Thanks! Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@leyay7540]

For me, hacking is a must-have to precisely set the watch. I hate to see the second hand doesn't synchronize with the minute hand perfectly.

[@watchartsci]

Try this Leya: set two hacking watches to the same time. Then check them out in 24 hours. If the minutes and seconds still align; then the abuse to the balance is worth it. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@leyay7540]

@@watchartsci I mean when the second hand hits zero, the minute hand also hits the minute marker. For me hacking is definitely worth it. I can choose to less use it, but if you don't have it, you can't choose at all.

[@watchartsci]

I cannot choose to have my balance slammed by the stop second brake, Leya. You're right. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@leyay7540]

@@watchartsci I am curious: don't you adjust your watch also? The adjusting mechanism is somewhat violent too..

[@hasininan5501]

I can easily do that with a non hacking watch. But it takes some precision. I keep a close eye on the second hand, and turn the crown with such precision that the minute hand falls exactly on the correct marker when the second hand hits 12 o'clock.

[@idletime]

Thanks Bill and good afternoon :-) . Now I understand why Vostock's don't hack and I never thought of it that way but that does make perfect sense. I do have a Haemmer nd-02 with a miyota movement that doesn't hack and it makes me wonder if they had the same thought process going when they chose the loopnet for this watch? 😋

[@watchartsci]

Hi Idle! My hunch is that hacking was put in because people wanted it; not because it was best for the movement. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@stefanlazaralexandru]

It's an interesting point, that I never thought would be an issue, but now I see the downside. Still for modern movements like the Omega 8* series, which have titanium balance wheel, silicon balance spring, free sprung architecture and full balance bridge, I don't think hacking is that much of a problem anymore. All these features offer much greater stability and shock resistance and I assume that forcefully stopping the balance wheel doesn't have nearly as much negative effect it once had. Also, what would be the alternative, for a hacking mechanism? One option is to fully disconnect the movement via a clutch mechanism, similar to a chronograph, but this just sounds like killing a mosquito with a 12 gauge shotgun. Too complicated.

[@watchartsci]

Archer; alternative to hacking-quartz watch. Mechanically, an auto-set second. But, hey, if you don't want to think of the shock of a being forced to come to a full stop from 28,800 vph; just look the other way. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@deleted836]

Thank you so much! I'm just starting to learn how mechanical watches work and my cheap Chinese knockoff movement(DG2813) which is the only watch movement I've taken apart so far hacks by slamming the 4th wheel with a spring loaded lever, so I thought that that's how every hacking mechanism works 😂😂 Their way shouldn't be any better, right? What do you think? And what part of the movement is the most concerning to you about back-hacking? Possibly the palate jewels? Thanks again for the great explanation!

[@watchartsci]

That may sound preferable to slamming down on the balance wheel, Deleted. Take care, Bill

[@paulsteele6120]

People like to stop the watch for time adjustment at 12'0' Clock, cos' it's easy and it will not cause enough wear in our lifetimes. It's much better than having to leave the watch to run down and stop. Then adjust the timepiece to the correct time and flicking into life as time and watch become synchronised. Nuff said.

[@watchartsci]

Go ahead and beat it up like a rented mule Paul, it's your watch, right? What happens to a garden hose you leave wound up for a long time? Same thing happens to your main spring ... of course it affects its accuracy. That's what frequent services are for...😉 Take care, and be safe, Bill 😷

[@Stoneitful]

interesting , I never thought of it crashing the movement

[@watchartsci]

How about the second stop arm being the "stick" and the balance being the "piñata," Stoneitful? Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@Rog5446]

If you really want accurate seconds without using a hacking watch to set the seconds, the solution is simple. Buy a chronograph and press the chronograph pusher when GMT comes to a full minute and keep it running. Hacking facility is a bit like a Tourbillon, is it really necessary?

[@watchartsci]

Hey Rog, setting my non-hacking watches ... haven't been late for an appointment yet! Great idea about using the chronograph function! Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@hinokikuaimu]

Excellent "hack" of the chronograph function!

[@wingkintang7257]

Wow, and I thought hacking was good, now I have second thoughts. I mean, Thx for the valuable info. I was told by my teacher that silicon hairsprings has long term servicibility issues, that's why Grand Seiko won't touch the silicon , what your opinion on that?

[@watchartsci]

Hi Wing, the only springs I like are metal alloy ones. Silicon is anti-magnetic, but cannot be adjusted. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@wingkintang7257]

@@watchartsci Sadly my PP 5227 has a silicon hairspring and PP often talk about passing their watches down through generations, which is ironic in a way.

[@tippykaffu4047]

I think hacking second is useful but it shouldn't be done too much and non-hacking is just more traditional than hacking when big brands don't do it like how Patek decided to remove automatic winding on their chronographs. The only time its acceptable for a watch to not have hacking is if its either a Seiko 5 cheap or traditional watch movement Modern movements shouldn't have any problems with hacking. The few latest generation of El Primero movement actually have them. They put it in few years ago.

[@watchartsci]

Tippy, you have it backwards. If you want a stop-second level slamming into your balance while it's in full movement, don't worry. Live with it. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@tippykaffu4047]

@@watchartsci Bill, i wasnt talking about the energy being full or empty. I was talking about the movement being hacked for many times. It will definitely take a toll on the movement.

[@watchartsci]

You are right Tippy! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@iliastasikas9553]

Bill in my opinion stop seconds system is good but the best I think is the "zero reset seconds".Some Panerai watches have this system.

[@tippykaffu4047]

and Lange, GO and vintage longines

[@watchartsci]

Most watches, including some of the best has hacking. It's a popular feature that doesn't make that much difference, but people want it. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@haidweng7948]

i used to be a big hacking fan untilbi realize that i need to wait a whole minute to adjust the time. it is kind of annoying because i have few dozens of watches and i adjust some of them daily

[@watchartsci]

Hi Haid, I found that if I set my minute hand shortly before the time change on my iPhone, as soon as the time changed, I'd just move it to the new time. Not as precise as hacking, but it works fine. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@markgallistel9456]

Your illustrated balance is a little off balance :), seriously though, I wrote in an earlier comment that I believe they should just skip the hacking mechanism and put in a return to zero for the seconds hand; I think this would be much healthier for the longevity of the caliber. PS: my little Orient Epoch pocket watch has hacking on it (really, it's only a wrist movement put in a pocket watch case, but at least it fits the special pocket for it in my work pants better than the Waltham that my uncle used to own would).

[@watchartsci]

I don't like stop seconds ... slamming down a brake on the balance wheel gives me the heebie-jeebies.😬 Take care, Bill

[@chronocommander007]

I prefer hacking movements. I get my watches serviced every 5 to 7 years and always receive the old parts that were replaced. I have never had a balance wheel replaced. No watchmaker has evercasked me if I hack my movements. Even if there is additional wear from hacking it's probably a miniscule amount in comparison to total wear. Where are all those hacking watches that wear out noticebky faster compared to their non-hacking brothers?

[@mohamedalketbi2326]

I wear my watches with wrong time all the time and I don’t need to correct them , chronometer precision or hacking seconds 😂

[@watchartsci]

Same here Mohamed. If I need split-second timing, I got my iPhone. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@richard8342]

Good info Bill, I love your demo. How long did it take you to make that ? L O L

[@watchartsci]

Richard, it took me a long time because I had to tear down a more complex gismo I first made to make this simple one. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@billytscherne4643]

Oh GOD , What happens to my quartz crystal when I hack ? What to Do .

[@watchartsci]

It was electrocuted, Billy. I didn't want to be the one to tell you... Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@Javi_C]

:)

[@watchartsci]

; )) Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@chrisb5986]

Hacking is essential to have an accurate timepiece accurately synchronized with a reference time. Full stop. Watch makers: If that mechanism is suboptimal, then take the $5-10k or more we are spending on these machines and build a better one. If I can synchronize a $5 casio, then I better be able to back hack my $5k speedmaster.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Chris, I wish they'd just use second re-set. That'd be easier on the balance... going from 28,800 vph to Zero ... I'm surprised the hair-spring doesn't get thrown through the windshield! Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@hinokikuaimu]

Hey Chris, synchronization is not much relevant when your watch (Omega speedmaster) is accurate at the very most to within 2~4 seconds / 24h, which is... very inaccurate compared to your phone (which is synchronized with any network it connects to, itself synchronized with atomic clocks accurate to also 1 second, but over several million years). Unless you synchronize it every hour or less)?

[@jeffreyblue627]

If it’s good enough for FPJ and Bill it’s good enough for me. My best watches do not “hack,” and I don’t care.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Jeffrey, even with hacking watches it's not impossible to give the balance wheel a break by setting the watch before winding it up all the way. I don't bother to precisely set my hacked watches, my iPhone is precise and reminds me of my appointments and important dates. (I am now convinced that Rolexes have solid case-backs so the user cannot see the agony of the balance wheel nor hear its screams as it is flayed by the stop second brake.) Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@HugoLopez-vz5rj]

I hack. I'm a hack.

[@watchartsci]

Indeed, Hugo ... they go together! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷