Has Total War Fallen?

[@Tarriff]

I dropped my physical copies of totalwar games by an accident. Yes, they were fallen, It was me who made them fallen, I orchestrated the fall of total war I apologize for that, my fault

[@bleyk36]

Fallen? ASMODE-wait sorry wrong franchise.

[@theginbot1]

tariff with another banger

[@jacobpendergrast5247]

Middle-sibling energy lol

[@Gritty1983]

You're amazing tariff, love your work

[@Kasparth]

I totally falled for it

[@Okoii]

I honestly don't see why CA haven't made both fantasy and historical simultaneously, they wasted time on Hyenas and other flops which is wild considering how thirsty everyone is and has been for a true historical total war title, the last "true" historical full title was Attila back in 2015 9 years ago, it's mad. I love both the fantasy and historical titles, fantasy doesn't and shouldn't mean historical games can't be made and the divide in the community is so stupid. We both love good total war games we should be united in support of that, even if you prefer one side or aren't interested in the other genre personally. The community malding at eachother and bickering, trying to invalidate each others preferences is pathetic. Ape together strong, brothers.

[@VenatorStellorum]

Mmmm, monkey. **Norscan noises**

[@christhagod]

I think its just the assload of Warhammer DLC that was a solid amount of income for a few years, like its the closest they ever got to Paradox levels of stretching out a game for money. Doesn't work as well in historical TW games, Imagine trying to sell like 3 units DLCs in a historical game lmao. But yeah really they should of been doing both.

[@abrvalg321]

Because they want to create DLC milking machines (like Paradox does) and they can't do it with historical titles.

[@TheSniperpal]

To clarify, was three kingdoms not really a historical title? At least the records version?

[@ShantanuSuchil]

Didn't Sega encourage CA to start on Hyena's? And from what I gathered the game was actually quite solid. They just missed the market by about 5 years or so.

[@Pilps]

I'd like to think i'm keeping the legacy and magic alive. But I'll admit i don't really know what the heck im going to do when i run out of factions with medieval 2 and fall of the samurai. Personally hoping im liked for whatever i upload rather than it just being a total war. Because i obviously don't like what they have right now

[@thegarbageman8713]

Empire/Napoleon? They have some cinematic battles, plus you can enhance empire with "Empire 2" mod and do some funny things with minor factions

[@1WatchesuSleep]

You should dip into the overhaul mods for Med 2. Would love to see your video style of Third Age, Tsardom, and the other great mods.

[@adrieltheoak]

Nah dont worry, you are creative and your videos are just pure fun. Tons of other strategy games or whatever that you can play and show us

[@LucasCunhaRocha]

Start making mods like broken crescent or just silly stuff like giving elephants to france or something like that.

[@carlosdelsol76]

Yeah, try empire/napoleon

[@LtHobo-uy9kn]

Total war has fallen. Billions must micro.

[@beenismchugerod]

mr president, the enemy halberds have caught our horse archers on skirmish mode

[@benjamincarlson6994]

That's why I refuse to use skirmish mode ever anymore

[@patximartel]

@@beenismchugerod It worked pretty well in Attila, I don't get it why

[@Aex3f4]

Billions must be ___Unit name here___

[@newsflashasshole7205]

​@@beenismchugerodnothing ever happens... keep them in skirmish by chudmar

[@unowno123]

The apathy point is much more important than people realise, if your product is forgotten, you will need to work very VERY hard to get customers again. If you have an angry community, giving them what they want will make them easily very happy, but you can't draw in people who don't care about your game anymore.

[@delivererofdarknessshoguno1133]

Honestly, it's crazy how back in twwh2 I was excited for any news about dlc, reworks or flc, and at this point I don't give a single shit about what comes next for wh3. I am not even sure when it began for me.

[@Syngrafer]

Yep. World of Warcraft is a perfect example of that. The expansion in 2020 was so bad, that even though the following two expansions have been a lot better, it just doesn't matter. Its fans no longer care about the game. The expansion in 2018 was really bad too, but people were still angry about the game at that point, hoping the 2020 expansion would be good. After the 2020 one failed to deliver too, people just stopped caring about the game.

[@0Vladislav0]

Logically, you are not wrong. But in reality, it doesn't work that way. The institution of reputation doesn't exist anymore. Look at dota 2. It's crap. They are lazy. But people still Valve to buy skins or anything else. Hell, look at EA, look at Ubi. In reality, it's all so random. I mean it's not, but there are so many small details in how things work that you can almost say it's random. On the other hand, CA is not EA, Ubi or Valve. They are much more vulnerable. BUT again, CA is almost monopolist in their products.

[@LoLaSn]

@@0Vladislav0 "it's crap" Care to elaborate? I know games are much faster than they used to be when people used to farm for 40 minutes and then have a few fights and end the game, especially with the larger map (which was a great change)

[@Nadaters]

I liked warhammer 1 and 2 but I passed on 3 and still haven't bought it.

[@Sanvone]

The best thing that happened to CA in last decade - TW:WH was a commercial success The worst thing that happened to CA in last decade - TW:WH was a commercial success

[@brothazoot]

A familiar tale that has felled many a great game studio. How from lofty heights ye plummet.

[@yansideabacoa6257]

the problem wasn't its commercial success, it was the company molding all future titles in the image of warhammer's game style

[@Sanvone]

@@yansideabacoa6257 Why do you think they mold all future titles in WH fashion :)?

[@rasmussolstrand5606]

And might get worse now with warhammer 40k.

[@yansideabacoa6257]

@@Sanvone because of terrible development decisions which lack creativity and have resulted in the genre's stagnation

[@HackerArmy03]

1:18 r/totalwar in a nutshell Legend started the petition to make immortal empires available even if you don't own the 2 previous titles with their DLCs -- which made me buy Warhammer 3 after. And yet they'll still attack Legend for the failed leaks he did, very aggressive too, acting like he murdered someone... jeez.

[@avacyn2000]

Reddit always attracts the freaks.

[@Dr.AvenVon]

to be fair, it was kinda obvious that CA will open up IE for everyone. I don't think that legend was really the cause

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

Who cares? It's PRedditors

[@darthzelius1906]

Reddit is an awful place, its full of the worst people, even fucking 4chan is better than that cesspool…

[@HackerArmy03]

@@Dr.AvenVon Nevertheless, it was due to his petition that made them change it sooner. I remember the stance of many reddit users at the time before it was "go to work, get money, and pay for the rest of TWW just like us"

[@Fiendish77]

"Can't expel Jewry?" top thread on the CK3 page lmao

[@forsakenparadise6828]

I mean it gave you so much gold I would always do it

[@Sanvone]

@@forsakenparadise6828 Forget my previous comment - I thought about CK2.

[@jean-edouardahmedozzi6120]

can you expel the jewry in CK3 ? I only played CK2 and still do

[@DautFromX]

They removed that from CK3? Woke has gone too far...

[@Eliza-yd7fi]

​@@DautFromXYou can but I think it has more disadvantages now. Before, it was just automatic for me

[@joaogabrieldiniz3299]

"What makes a total war fan?"...well, 40% rage, 30% cope, 20% nostalgia and maybe 10% enjoyment

[@KiraKuinBaitsaDasuto]

Wow 10% so accurate

[@jamesduke3186]

5% pleasure, 15% pain, 100% reason to remember the name

[@misterroberts344]

Being a fan of sci fi and also medieval styles while also favoring RPG, RTS, and TBS genres

[@lucasportasio]

ya'll enjoying the games??? bro i thought i had to play it on the hardest difficulty and then hit my balls with a hammer to be a REAL total war fan

[@archdornan3694]

@@jamesduke3186i love that anytime people start listing stats somebody has to say it

[@theosapoklyos]

Let's not forget that the issue of historical vs. fantasy is completely eclipsed by Hyenas. Personally I liked Rome and Medieval 2, I also really like Warhammer. The fact is that Warhammer was a golden goose for CA who then took that money and funded a $100M black hole that brought absolutely nothing to anyone. The problem with always attempting to innovate is sometimes you're trying to fix something that ain't broke.

[@44waxwings]

Why don't companies learn from RuneScape and WoW? The companies said "You guys wanted us to completely change the game, right?" And their base said "Nah we quit" and then the companies said "Hey guys we changed it back to how you liked it" and the games absolutely exploded again. Not the only 2 examples either.

[@Schaden-freude]

@@44waxwings Because there isn't necessarily anything to learn. Your goal as a for profit company is to keep growing constantly. You can't really do that if you are only able to sell your product to the same people who get older and less interested over time typically. I'd consider them rebounding to be an exception rather than the norm. I like the current iteration of WoW, but I am under no illusion that anyone brand new to the game would stick with it; there's simply too much.

[@44waxwings]

@@Schaden-freude Fair enough. I think the sweet spot is definitely somewhere in the middle of changing things up to keep them interesting and give the devs a chance to strike gold once again, and not changing shit too much that it feels like a different game entirely. Also accepting when you fucked up and not doubling down on it i.e. Cataclysm, EoC or the current Total War engine.

[@Schaden-freude]

@@44waxwings Another aspect is the community itself. Same as with new players in dungeons getting screamed at for not having enough game knowledge, new players probably aren't likely to stick around TW if they enter the community and see the shitflinging fests on reddit for example. I know the rhetoric around warhammer subdued my interests toward it and I like high fantasy settings.

[@chocho6766]

Inovate my ass they tried to make a "team based fps game"

[@F4aXxZ]

I'm more of a historical Total War guy and love Rome 1 and Medieval 2 to death. Those are my favourites. But I also like the Warhammer trilogy for what it is and even is my most played Total War because of all the content it has. The problem is that instead of having Historical TW titles and Fantasy TW titles that share the basic things but are still different in many aspects we now get Historical titles that have far too much Warhammer influence. I loved the general system in Rome and Medieval 2 cause it felt like depending how good you did with him, he got better and god the traits that made sense. In other words, you had to do certain things like fighting and hiring mercenaries to get a trait or follower that buffs or makes mercenaries cheaper. Nowadays all you need to do is get enough XP and therefore skillpoints to skill into it like a typical MMO nowadays. It works for Warhammer but it doesn't work for historical titles. I really like Three Kingdoms but I hate how your general has a skill tree instead of getting them by being in those situations. Also the provinces system just doesn't work in every setting. Yeah it worked in Attila and Rome 2 because that's how Rome was governed also worked for Three Kingdoms but it doesn't for Troy or Pharao or would defo not work for Medieval 3. I don't want to see a province of Sicily in Medieval 3 with Palermo being the only city with walls while Syrakuse and others are just villages. Conquering cities should be something big again but 66% of all settlements taken it's just has nearly no impact on your empire that it just feels tedious after a while. Yapping to much for a simple point. CA doesn't know which game mechanics works well into different settings. And I think that's their biggest problem. That's why new Historical titles feel like Warhammer TW but a little bit history.

[@BlacK40k]

I agree, especially with how the general gained his traits in the older Total Wars. With the exception of one point: you don't have limited build slots IRL

[@MrAnthraxes]

Very good point about the gameplay mechanics! There's so many things that work (or at least feel good) for Warhammer that dont work for a historical title and, honestly it goes the other way as well. Best example are Commanders and how provinces or rather cities are managed/upgraded (both things you pointed out) but also Unit-diversity. In Warhammer, 2 different Races shouldnt have the same units, but in historical TW games that REALLY doesnt need to be the case. Take Shogun 2 as a good example of "non-diverse" rosters. Basically everyone used the same units (not counting the ikko ikki, they were weird), it was the factions that elevated certain units of the roster, making them their "elite", so even tho everybody used the same units, it never felt stale to play a new campaign.

[@TheDAWinz]

The province system would still work because the Romans had the theme system in the middle ages

[@juanfp]

Not knowing what works and what doesn't has been an epidemic in gaming for over a decade. The industry grew so much these years no matter what they sold, that most leadership roles have 0 idea of what are good decisions. And then, you have the internal politics and publishers demands on top of that

[@Renderc4t]

'CA doesn't know which game mechanics works well into different settings'. - And that's why I'm not even optimistic about future fantasy titles. Warhammer Fantasy was a perfect fit for Total War, both games are ultimately about moving blocks of units around and the variety allows them to make up for the growing issues with the battle mechanics. 40K will sell on name alone but there's no guarantee that it or any future title won't clash with the current design.

[@leolinguini260]

Modder here. Done work on Hoi4 and tried a bit on WH2. Hoi4 is extremely easy to learn purely because the core aspects are worked in TXT files. If you don't know something about a mechanic, you find the corresponding file in the base game and look at the text. WH needs a separate program and then you need an index just to understand what handle/name corresponds with what object in the game. Edit: what I am getting at, is that the entry level is far higher for TW. This means you have less(meant fewer) talented people attempting modding in the first place.

[@juanfp]

When I tried to make a small mod for WH3 I realized that the games are barely stitched together with hopes and dreams. I was surprised that they can actually provide the current level of quality with what they are working with.

[@hatimzeineddine8723]

I think you mean "fewer" talented people, not less talented

[@chocho6766]

Ca barely have programmer 😂

[@rainbowevil]

⁠@@hatimzeineddine8723 yeah, this is actually a case where it makes a difference to the meaning of the sentence! At first I was reading it as though the OP wanted more low-talent people, which is quite different!

[@benjirabbe1205]

​@@hatimzeineddine8723 - Not necessarily. As a less talented modder my talent really does rely on a user friendly engine.

[@bloodmagiclord8253]

Historical vs fantasy is a red herring that just wastes a lot of time and stops people from discussing the actual issues with Total War, because they're too busy tilting at windmills. Total War ditched its old formula of dynamic combat in favour of spreadsheet-based Top Trumps with cool animations and VFX on top. It just so happens that all of the games in the old formula were historical, but pretty much everyone who complains about new Total War (Rome 2 and after) would still love a fantasy based Total War true to the old formula. There are loads of fantasy mods for Medieval 2 that did really well.

[@AaronPaden]

I agree with this. been playing a lot of DAC lately myself.

[@Isengrim24]

Pretty sure combat is much more dynamic in Warhammer titles than in the older ones. Faster units, a lot of abilities, dynamic leadership changes prompting units to route and re-engage - that's one of the many reasons people who grew up on Rome 1 and Medieval 2 keep complaining. Volund touches that subject in his video "The Disintegration of Total War's "Order of Battle". In Warhammer battles are much more likely to dissolve into a couple or even a dozen of smaller engagements between different units, while in Medievla 2 for example keeping formation was absolutely crucial.

[@greasy_breads]

gallop on, together

[@AaronPaden]

@@Isengrim24 The word "dynamic" is perhaps imprecise. Old total war battles are decided by positioning and decisive maneuvers, whereas in modern total war it's decided by stats and clickies. When a flanking maneuver feels like it does almost nothing, battles can feel less "dynamic" in that way. Really if you learn the game Warhammer has its own "dynamic" behaviors, but it is just less fun when something that obviously should work doesn't because stats.

[@Person01234]

100% and this is the biggest problem I have with volound. I think he has some good takes but he focuses far too much on blaming "fantasy" for problems that he will readily admit were there before the fantasy total wars were even conceptualized. There's always been a demand among the "true" total war fans for TW in a fantasy setting. There was a warhammer mod for Medieval 2 (which was great but obviously had trouble with certain mechanics like flying) and numerous mods have been made for The Lord of the Rings. The problem isn't that "fantasy bad", the problem is that CA bad. The warhammer series was good and popular DESPITE the many failings of modern TW, because it was a genuinely nice little reinvention of the formula. I think it peaked with 2 and that the problems have started to become dominant again in WH3 tbh. If CA could get back to making games with solid mechanics again, a lot of the things "historical fans" want back would also be really great to add into fantasy. Warhammer in particular could benefit from things like a population system and even regional recruitment or development of a settlement actually affecting the quality of units and such.

[@trowachess]

Legend using Dark Mode on his video!? Truly things have fallen!

[@Jahn_Zatan_Kristian]

Menu in the center and not even hidden the search bar is the real darkness.

[@micasa8421]

Sir they've hit the second total war

[@burgertime6372]

There’s been a second hyena

[@bardolomaios2g301]

We live in a banbantasy

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

THEY HIT THE FUCKING HYENA!!!

[@roflocopter1337]

My great fear is that CA will actually try to make a historical game that we want, (Medieval 3, Empire 2, Shogun 3, etc) but totally botch it in every way possible. That would honestly be the last serious nail in the coffin; everything after would just be pouring dirt on the grave.

[@jordanazevedo5688]

Let’s be honest we all will buy it.

[@carlosdelsol76]

​@@jordanazevedo5688nope

[@spiffygonzales5160]

As an Empire fan I absolutely would refuse to buy an Empire 2 because 9/10 it's gonna be nothing compared to the old game. It's gonna be what Rome 2 was to Rome 1.

[@roflocopter1337]

@@spiffygonzales5160 Funny enough I actually liked Rome 2 more than Rome 1. Granted I was much younger so I likely didn't appreciate it as much. I'm just worried too many bad mechanics from WH will bleed into a potential Empire 2.

[@jr8260]

​@@spiffygonzales5160 single entity general cornwallis

[@roachrecluse8719]

I know this entire video is about not picking sides and disregarding entire arguments for one bad point they make, but you can't go wrong ignoring the opinion of redditors

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

I concur.

[@blondequijote]

Their downvotes mean nothing - I’ve seen what they upvote.

[@derigel7662]

​@@blondequijotecutties....they like cutties. Freaks is what they are

[@samueldisturbing761]

@@blondequijote I understood that reference

[@TheBoxGhost_tm]

Glad to see more and more people take this mentality within the last year or two. Redd*t is too deep into concession cracking and don't see a problem with it.

[@ayomri1914]

They have all the tools and know how to succeed. The Battles of Shogun 2, the naval battles of empire, The diplomacy of three kingdoms, the settlement system of Rome, The unit variety, recruitment and upgrades of medieval 2. All we need is a setting and time that can go from sword melees to ranged focus over time to change up the gameplay during campagnes and increases unit variety. In short they should take all this and pour it into Total War medieval 3 EDIT: The only thing this would be missing would be the fantasy setting but the battles in fantasy plays way different compared to the historical ones. Three kingdoms had some of that fantasy with their heroes system but that had its issues too

[@TheKarofaar]

Attilla have better battles than shogun 2 in term of cav unit use. In shogun you just don't use cavalry as you use it in attila, i don't say it is useless, but you can play without em. If you want a medieval 3 you need to center the game in cavalry combat...so attila. Moral and bonuses is something i don't apreciate, but the battle map is good in shogun.

[@chocho6766]

They prefer making hyenas

[@MrTerryToughNutts]

Fantasy is why they are in this position 😂

[@m0nkEz]

​@@TheKarofaar honestly as much as I love Shogun 2, I agree. I hate cycle charging because it's cheesy and gamey, but cav will lose to archers in that game without it. And even surrounding yari ashigaru and charging from all sides with cav ends with the cav getting mauled (admittedly also a touch gamey).

[@m0nkEz]

Easier said than done. Frankly speaking, there's a good chance they don't have the source for Shogun 2, so they would not, in fact, have all the tools. Everything we have heard about how the company is organized and run tells me that it's not really plausible for them to do more than they've been doing. I just expect them to continue releasing watered-down versions of Attila with a new skin of paint for years to come.

[@bajsbrev4651]

BrowsingRedditOfTotalWar

[@blydchyld]

Reddit is performative art. It's not a group of people sharing their views, it's a group of people simping to popularism in order to earn updoots. And as you note there is a thread on the lore sub today basically shitting on new fans of lore.

[@TonyBabbleoni]

the slaanesh bots are already abundant, sigmar preserve us

[@The1RedRooster]

Joyous degradation has never been so abundant

[@ElephoontOfTheShapes]

PRAISE SIGMAR!

[@orfanclub6288]

I used to think sivald was sigmar 💀

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

*FORM A RING OF STEEL!*

[@Ratzo123ify]

Man, why you gotta bundle us Slaanesh fans together with bots. Me and all the other Slaanesh fans (all 7 of us!) are very upset by this I'll have you know.

[@KristianKumpula]

30:22 This is absolutely true. I think it's partially due to Paradox being more accommodating towards modders than Creative Assembly is. The latter even screwed over modders by essentially hardcoding the 20 units per army cap into WH 3 even though it was easily moddable in previous titles.

[@Vismark1171]

Yeah but Paradox release a £40 game with £500 worth of dlc if the game doesn't die within a year 😆

[@robnoel9306]

​@@Vismark1171 So options are bad?

[@midnightsun1443]

@@Vismark1171 It would be a valid argument, if not for the fact that you have to buy 3 $60 games and all the DLCs for the whole TW:Warhammer experience.

[@Vismark1171]

@@robnoel9306 Two of the dlc for HOI4 is for the same nation. Crusader Kings 3 released with nearly no dlc stuff people payed for in CK2. So if you want to replay a republic, got to wait for new dlc 🤷‍♂️ So yeah it's bad, why people pirate it alot

[@Vismark1171]

@@midnightsun1443 Thats the fantasy side though, its not like I needed Rome 1 to play Rome 2. Shogun 1 for Shogun 2 🤷‍♂️ Besides you can play the main campaign but obviously people prefer the world conquest map

[@ryanu.4953]

The thing I miss about the historical games is probably something others don’t miss at all. I loved how fragile generals were, they had marginally more hp than their bodyguard, and you could easily lose generals by simply being too close to a single volley of arrows. I loved that tiny bit of realism of the generals are just as human as everyone else.

[@adambrande]

English generals in Medieval 2 can rival the personalities of any one main character in the Warhammer series with deep lores with their speeches alone.

[@Scriptures_K]

Happens all the time. >notice hypocritical behaviour of person/group/clique >hold up a mirror to it >they get angry & mass against you Everywhere I've been, it's been consistent. If you hold up a mirror to someone's bad behaviour or hypocritical comments, they'll hate you forever.

[@MedievalWarfare]

I'm so glad that i enjoyed both historical and fantasy settings. The only things that matter is CA keep making a Good Game we all love, not the half baked product.

[@MrAnthraxes]

Playing Total War games since Rome 1 and while I do like both sides (as in the fantasy and the historical games), I REALLY want a good historical game again that doesnt try to be a "fantasy" game. Historical Nations dont need their own super-unique gameplay style with some sort of court-shennanigans system, a civil-war meter or whatever they tried to pull with Troy's recource-gameplay. All I want are different units for them (based on culture, obviously shared ones in there as well), maybe an overarching religion-system like in Medieval 2, some decent Siege-gameplay and AI that isnt either Braindead or Overbuffed. What I'm saying is, yes, I want Medieval 3.

[@katieheys3007]

Medieval 3 is all it would take lol

[@fedyx1544]

Medieval 3 diplo is complete crab. Anything less than 3K diplo in a freaking MEDIEVAL game and I'll riot.

[@maxmustermann-zx9yq]

don't care about setting but battles aren't fun for me since about shogun 2, and if the battles aren't fun then the campaign won't save it

[@MrAnthraxes]

@@maxmustermann-zx9yq Agreed. I dont like the word, but battles (and ESPECIALLY sieges) feel like they "peaked" in Shogun 2. Hell, even Naval felt good.

[@LouisKing995]

I think a more in-depth political system that reflects the super complex political landscape of the late-middle ages/renaissance era would be really interesting. Doesn’t need to come with super powers or anything but something more in depth than Rome 2 or Atilla would be welcome imo:

[@Montaggg33]

Total War has fallen, billions must stop playing RTS games

[@Naftoor]

B-b-billions? Between wc3, sc2 and aoe2, the biggest of the rts games with online communities I’d be surprised if there’s 250k daily players and half of that would be in the custom games RTS games have been a niche since the FPS genre rose to power, and when that got consumed by battle royales that didn’t change. It’s a very small, very dedicated community

[@GachiFriend]

@@Naftoor its a joke, based on "Billions must die" Chud memes

[@YenConjuring]

Billions?!

[@shadowstep1375]

@@YenConjuringBILLIONS!

[@kleinerprinz99]

Oh he means that zombie game... "They are billions.. " Hah

[@davidshaw123451001]

Here is a Reddit OP from 8 years ago: Don't get me wrong, I think Warhammer is a fantastic edition to the series so I don't have too many issues with that game. But does anybody else feel that Total War has really started to suck recently? I don't think that there's a specific game I can point at and say "this is when the games started to suck" but there are many problems with this series that I hate. Some games like Empire and Rome 2 felt rushed and as a result there were many issues with the AI and visuals. And the DLC is getting out of control, you can guarantee that the next total war game will release with a faction pre order bonus and then later add a blood and gore pack, a units pack, and some other small factions packs. It's just so annoying because they could easily update this into the game for free or at the very least they could bundle this small DLC with the larger campaign packs. And one last nitpick is how CA sometimes uses a games assets to create a slightly better version of that game and release it as a new game i.e. with Napoleon and Attila, but at least that doesn't happen too often. I don't know, had to rant somewhere about how I feel that Sega is treating this franchise like a cash cow and how all of these problems really tarnish the franchise in my opinion. so I decided to rant here and wanted to hear about how the Total War community on reddit felt about this.

[@Sylvester4571]

Every time I read old Reddit posts I feel nostalgic and wrong. Like if I'm reading something that was meant to be gone. Imagine the year is 2224 and you are reading internet comments and then it hits you that these comments are 200 years old. Everyone who posted it is dead and now these abandon threads are just the "footprints" of earlier humans on the internet. I can't describe the feeling exactly, but it's cool but weird to read things that are years old and still apply today

[@toddblankenship7164]

for me I loved the original games (played them all) but they are so boring and limited compared to WH3 and the massive amount of things you can do. I dont think I would get a historical title again unless its extremely innovative

[@SpeCifiC0507]

@@toddblankenship7164 Nobody cares about what you would get or play. You're also comparing WH3, a game that came out in 2022, to the originals that came out in the mid 2000's. The irony being that CA still can't seem to develop competent AI, proper siege battles, and even after a 3rd iteration in the Warhammer series, fail to fix things or NOT piss off the fan base be it Warhammer fans or not. CA is a mess, and thinking their fantasy games are somehow a beacon of innovation is hilarious given they're still plagued by issues the originals back in mid 2000's had lmao.

[@toddblankenship7164]

@@SpeCifiC0507 well im still playing the shit out of WH3 and the historical titles are in the dumper. You keep ur chin up champ BAHAHAHAHAHAH

[@millerrepin4452]

@@Sylvester4571 This is the exact feeling I have reading about Ea-Nasir the EA of ancient civilizations.

[@Granox]

Came for total war stayed for Philosophy

[@quinnhutson5566]

Every corporate entity in gaming: "Hey look, we stripped out half the quality and features and people bought it anyways! This is financial genius!" 5 years later: *collapse* "...This is everyone's fault but ours, fire everyone."

[@dereksdump]

Don't worry this has all been a ploy to market their next upcoming title "Total War Hyenas" where every unit costs $5.00 USD

[@neveridle]

Lets not kid oursevles though. The only ones to make a true Medieval 3 would be a completely different and new studio. I dont think CAs ever going to try it as they seem to always go for minimum viable product these days

[@paulrasmussen8953]

The team that did rome remastered i have faith in

[@neveridle]

@@paulrasmussen8953 i have faith in the developers. Im sure they love the franchise and wish tehy had enough time to work on it

[@IceniTotalWar]

@@paulrasmussen8953 That was a separate company, Feral Interactive, they get license from other companies to revamp games. And yes they did an awesome job with RR.

[@ghost0nlive67]

When I saw the Pharoah trailer, I just said I can't wait for the Tomb Kings DLC.

[@timothym9398]

Honestly i think the main difference for me... The players fall in to one of two camps, gamers vs simulators. Some people love the high micro sweaty gamer type of gameplay, and CA has done a lot of work trying to cater to that style of play. The simulators (the camp i fall in) wants a game to simulate certain experiences. Whether its the politics, subterfuge, or likely the battle experience. The more the games gamify the battles the less staying appeal the game has for me. Attila was the last game where the battles "felt right", combat "felt" dangerous, decisions mattered, clicking 100 times per second couldn't rescue a bad decision. I feel the simulator side of thr fans have just walked away, because the gameplay feels like Warcraft 3 scaled up.

[@ashamahee]

exactly, I am a general on the battlefield giving orders not a dang modern gamer kid that has adhd and beefed up on energy drinks playing idle simulator or whatever those click games are called. And I like some depth to the ruling of the nation, make stuff meaningful and impactful with pros and cons depending on what decisions I make.

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

What do you think about Shogun 2?

[@cmLMolde]

Yeah, the "standard opening" with an easy local opponent, some natural expansion opportunity and starting with 1 province kind of killed the "simulation" for me. I could somewhat accept Shogun 2, but they learned a lesson of playability which ruins the immersion for my case. Rome 1 had some wild cases, barbarian invasion with "saving" the rotting empire. Was an excellent game of immersion for me.

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

@@cmLMolde isn’t it warhammer only? And you can make up a bunch of reasons why you start in the position you’re in.

[@timothym9398]

@@shmekelfreckles8157 I liked it, yes it's lacking a bit in unit variety, and the campaign politics are pretty simple, but the tactics and gameplay of the battles "made sense". Positioning and formations mattered, mattered more than unit stats. Limited click effects, just a few that might sway a situation, but they were special and important, not spammable.

[@itshunni8346]

Modding communities are huge, they add longevity to a title that otherwise wouldn't have it. Third age is so wonderful that i actually bought medieval 2 to play the mod and ended up enjoying the vanilla game as well purely as an extension to that. Modern total war lacks the community to create them because of how the game is modded, its just more difficult and time consuming and when the mods break they explode and crash your game. Not to mention scale, its just easier to make new maps and stuff in the simpler paradox games. EU4 has Anbennar, HOI4 has Equestria at War and the LoTR mod, and Crusader Kings 3 has Elder Kings, AGoT, LoTR, and a smattering of smaller total conversions with new maps like one set in Ireland and another in bronze age Greece or VtM. I wish total war was easier to mod to, because i love a lot of mods in it.

[@Gritty1983]

Watching you evolve legend over the past 10 years has been a pleasure. You and Heir of Carthage were the first you tubers i discovered after playing Rome total war. You give real opinions and have such a passion to entertain. Plus your talent is top notch. Anyone that can brave atila WRE legendary campaign has balls of steel. Thank you for all you do.

[@NatrajChaturvedi]

Yeah, yours was a more nuanced take than the video you were reacting to. I broadly agree with all you had to say. My real problem tho is with the type of fanbase that infests such subredits and forums. They try to shield CA from any negativity even the kind that is justified be it someone criticizing some technical, artistic aspect of TW games OR CA's financial decissions. According to them, CA can do little wrong and we are all idiots or too poor if we complain. Also, it seems CA only wants to nurture fans of that type. So they deserve each other and good luck to them!

[@alphapu6644]

14:44 That is not only a problem of internet culture, it is a problem of culture/society in general. Just look at the current US election for example: "every Democrat is a radical left wing extremist/communist and all Republicans are ultra right nationalists/facists". It feels like people have lost the ability to actually talk, listen and compromise with each other...

[@kirkmyers2116]

Exactly. It's rampant in new generations, it just so happens their favourite forum is the internet.

[@kleinerprinz99]

Its like replacing one pro-capitalist spineless bootlicker with another its such a big deal. What makes Trump different is that he definately uses right populist propaganda and leverages the disappointment of the voters and working people with the establishment. You cannot deny the polarisation in society. Only Big Business has Two Parties. The working class has none except Green Party candidates in some areas which togeter with Trade Union networking could be a start.

[@the1prodig432]

Here’s the thing, if I find your opinion garbage, I’m not going to take it into account. That’s just the reality of it. Why would someone who thinks they’re right compromise with someone who they think are wrong? Everyone does not win in life, there IS right and wrong, compromise only leads to more issues down the road.

[@KingOfMadCows]

We are fans of a franchise that's literally about people killing each other over the inability to compromise.

[@SirGofres]

​@@the1prodig432There is no "winning" in life. If you lose, the ones around you lose too, and if you "win" over someone, he is losing and also their people. How can it be called victory, when other people who are arbitrarily on the other perceived "side" are losing too? True winning is when nobody loses. That's why it's the hardest. Also, you can be "right" about a certain topic all you want, people as you say won't care if that doesn't align with their agenda, and by antagonizing them, you only hurt the values you are supposedly trying to uphold. So what is worth being "right" and "winning"? Nothing, it's bullshit to keep our fragile egos distracted, while they profit.

[@DahakaProd]

You're expecting actual discourse on Reddit, enough said

[@Confirmed105]

12:26 i love how the dude (the commenter, not you legend) actually pulls his own dismissal in his last sentence of newer total war fans opinions by using an anecdotal fallacy about him not feeling any hype since attila total war gameplay trailers.

[@yamochanchan]

Oh gosh~ I didnt think this would happen. I actually under his own video called out Apollo for something that he mentions~ Him saying the fantasy settings are bad when he himself made tons and tons of videos with the LotR mod. Infact those videos actually got me interested in Total War and when Warhammer came out and thus a fantasy setting I jumped on the chance to become a part of the TW community~ I just found it quite hypocritical of him. Also him saying that us newer players just "consume everything" made me quite furious when we kicked up all that dirt only this year with "Shadows of SHORT Change" ...

[@gobs379]

PA has always been very narrow minded on "historical good, fantasy bad". I've always been more of the mind "fun good, not-fun bad", which brought me into TW Warhammer several years ago after learning the ropes in Shogun 2. I assume most warhammer players are like me and would love and welcome a fun historical addition to TW, if CA is willing to put the work into making it fun.

[@G1ingy]

He's not wrong though, even after a lot of people kicked up a lot of dust, the DLC still sold a FUCKTON of copies. People gobbled up overpriced garbage like chaos dwarf and try to cope and convince themselves that it's just as good as TK/VCoast DLC. This fanbase is full of idiots who'd grumble first, then pre-order regardless, and be shocked that what they bought sucked, and only then start pushing for change.

[@slip6699]

I think it's more when he says fantasy he's really getting at the style of game mechanics. It's the mechanics that are predominant in WH and lack some of the detail /control found in the the older game, regardless of the mod being used.

[@RTB3550]

No no no. He is completely right about the consume part. The community complained about Shadow of Change DLC and Total War gave you guys a false appeasement (essentially a middle finger), by simply breaking up the dlc and adding just a tad but of extra content, but kept the overall price exactly the same... you all fell for it hook line and sinker and started praising Total War and started to consume again. Easily manipulated and placated fan base. You guys had your chance.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@@RTB3550 Right right so what happened after Empire’s shitty release and is still a buggy mess, or Rome 2? I’m old enough to remember y’all getting mad and throwing up your arms and you still couldn’t help yourselves buying the content. Get that weak ass hypocritical shit outta here, on top of that Napoleon and Atilla shouldn’t even be their own games. They gave y’all broken games and rewarded your loyalty with refined “Half games” when really those should’ve just been DLC. You guys pay full price for glorified reskins, so don’t sit there and say “we had our chance”, you guys are the reason CA is like this to begin with.

[@kevinmorgan2968]

CA: “soooooo…. We should rerelease Rome again?”

[@kylepassey7813]

As a guy who has only ever really played Total War: Warhammer, I hope all historical players continue to enjoy their favourite games. :)

[@ian-flanagan]

Thanks. As a fan of both (for 20 years), if they don’t change the formula in some way, I don’t see the point of making historical sequels. E.g., if they made AI players way, way more natural/realistic, instead of simply boosting their units, then I’d pay attention

[@unai_asecas9070]

I don’t fully understand what you mean. Either you want CA to produce new historical games or it’s a “screw you, I hope CA only makes fantasy games for me lol XD you can enjoy 20 year old games.” In any case people like me are gone. I have the physical copy of shogun 1&2, medieval 1&2 and every game until 3K. And yet I haven’t played a TW in over a year. Even if medieval 3 came out tomorrow I wouldn’t buy it because I believe deep in my heart that CA can no longer make games as good as shogun2 or Napoleon. I’m happy that people like you still play TW but I don’t think the market is big enough to sustain the business.

[@Isengrim24]

If you are trying to be funny with a innuendo that complaining fans should stick to their historical titles then you completely missed the point of this video.

[@kylepassey7813]

@@Isengrim24 @unai_asecas9070 Don't worry, I didn't miss the point of the video. Hope you two have a nice day and I hope CA continues with their historical titles. :)

[@ian-flanagan]

@@Isengrim24 Jeez, maybe you’re right, but I didn’t read it that way at all. I think he’s just spreading good will… You need to lower your cynicism guard sometimes.

[@krishnavandewalle9459]

I really loved the mechanic of sending parts of your army out for scouting purposes or to hold a garrison without having to dispatch a general as wel in Shogun. I started with TW:Warhammer 2, and I wanted more and looked towards the past. Shogun 2 was definitely my favourite. But I wouldn’t have been pulled in the total war series if it weren’t for Warhammer. The older total war series felt like they had a huge barrier to break into to understand and enjoy the mechanics. It was easier to understand because I played the warhammer version.

[@michaelmontana1198]

5:44 the west has fallen got me dead

[@blebcat]

Dunno how. That has been memed into the ground and buried at this point.

[@hex_1733]

You gotta keep in mind that Total War is a bit of a unique case in that the setting is very important as to how many people buy it. I'm convinced that even if CA make a good TW, if it's a nicher setting then no one will care about it. Warhammer has a huge fanbase, a lot of people are in love with Rome, the Victorian era, Japan. The Bronze Age collapse is a niche setting inside a niche setting. The Dynasties update has a lot of good things about it and those who play it love it, but that doesn't matter because it never had the chance to have a big launch. I'm not absolving CA of any wrongdoing of course, they massively fucked it up. To use the example of HOIV you gave. Do you think it'd be as popular if it was set during some Indonesian conflict?

[@EmhyrvarSpice]

I mean that was basically Legend's point: "nobody" asked for another bronze age total war. I saw people on the fantasy side asking for an "age of mythology" style total war years ago, but that's a completely different setting from just normal bronze age.

[@maxmustermann-zx9yq]

@@EmhyrvarSpice that setting also required a proper update on their shitty battle mechanics, like actual unit mass, units pushing each other, high impact of flanking, moral over lethality etc.

[@Schaden-freude]

@@maxmustermann-zx9yq my kingdom for a non warscape engine total war again

[@henryofskalitz5212]

@@EmhyrvarSpice I want another Bronze age Total war game. The issue I have, is they need to have deeper mechanics into how managing a Bronze age civilization would have been like, to help differentiate it. We need much deeper trade and population mechanics for the time period to really stand out.

[@EmhyrvarSpice]

@@henryofskalitz5212 I mean I feel like that's been an ongoing issue with the franchise for years now. It has maybe the best battle system in the industry, but the campaign aspect is so shallow. I have heard so often how people have wished for a mix of total war combat and Paradox style campaign mechanics. It might be harder on the new players, but seeing how popular the paradox games are anyway I don't think it would be such a big problem.

[@ConorChaos]

I'm 34 and have been playing TW since I found a combo pack of Shogun 1 and Medieval 1 in some bargain bin in like 2002-2003. I love the Total War series, and wish they'd just focus their efforts in developing games that are worth investing your time in. I just want good games, and although I love the Warhammer iterations, I want the likes of Medieval 2 back, and not having it be dumbed down for modern audiences.

[@bbtop07]

Fan replacement? I was there Gandalf… 3000yrs ago. I owned Medieval 1. I also enjoy WHTW3. I don’t feel replaced

[@jaime-johnhughes9088]

For me, ToB was the first total war I had apathy for.

[@IceniTotalWar]

CA themselves had apathy for ToB , their very 1st ( Fall of the Samurai was/is/will not be ) Saga title. They literally killed it off on Day 1.

[@colemorin5177]

As you directly requested, it appears someone has made a reaction to your reaction and its the man himself! Pixelated continues the conversation.

[@ocotoYT]

Maybe the "true" Total War fans were the friends we made along the way

[@Ruben-eo3xs]

Maybe the true total war fans were the Chads that enjoyed the old games… not the fat neckbeards that play war hammer

[@Seraphiel123]

You're not a "true" Total War fan if you're capable of making friends.

[@stefanciocan1605]

I see what you did there Broskandar 🎉

[@sebastianrosenheim6196]

​@@Seraphiel123frfr

[@IceniTotalWar]

@@Seraphiel123 Their can only be Total War !

[@dododooooo]

I've been a total war fan sine like.. 2008. There was a time when I was super involved with the community. No one of consequence, but just commenting and following KZbinrs and the sub. I definitely commend you, Legend, for sticking with it, but I just got tired of seeing the same back and forth arguments all over these forums saying the same things for the last like three years. Hopefully CA puts out some winners in the future that could help improve the community discourse. Especially a good historical. Quick out of nowhere historical wish list: overhaul of diplomacy, maybe supply lines, internal factions within a faction. I've definitely gotten much much more enjoyment out of Total War by avoiding these types of things. lol Just wanted to check this video and yup. Seems like things haven't gotten better so far. Glad I stayed subbed to you. Have a good one.

[@TheGodlessGamer]

Great take legend I agree almost completely. Thanks for pointing out his fallacious argument because that was literally the biggest part of his video I had a problem with. I would actually love it if you did a more in depth reaction to his video. Keep up the great work 👍

[@shanepealow2052]

I'm glad you and pixelated both are humble and truly care about the state of Total War despite how it's gone past years. I remember in 2015 first game a bought was medieval 2. Had a shit laptop and my basement apartment and loved the game so much. It's true what you said about apathy it truly plays a devastating role. I feel the best thing can happen now is creative assembly utterly goes under and a new company takes the reign. The systems and style of a total war game are hard to mimic by other companies which really hampers our hopes of something new. Thus I think total CA death honestly would be best. You can't change people who don't want to change. I do love the LOTR mods and GOT is pretty cool. But yeah CA doesn't understand these two styles should be segregated not dabbling in each other's realms

[@avacyn2000]

Warhammer 40K Total War would make them absolute stacks. That would be their zenith, IF they get it right.

[@loowick4074]

If

[@bibby659]

And even then, the main problem comes down to how they monitize it. If its anything like how Shadows of Change was, and they think even slightly that they can milk the 40k community more than they had the fantasy community. It will erupt in their faces like the Horus Heresy. Out of nowhere and everything that could and can go wrong goes wrong.

[@Alkron1]

The current tw formula doesn’t fit 40k, they would have to change the battle formula to squads and platoons instead of regiments and battle lines, we shall have to wait and see though, my argument may be proven COMPLETELY wrong

[@Schaden-freude]

@@Alkron1 they'd need a new engine for sure. 40k requires robust ranged and melee combat and Warscape has only sorta been able to do ranged firearm combat.

[@toddblankenship7164]

They'll get it right because there's nothing to hold it against yet or for the internet queens to rage against (maybe WH but i figure it'll be vastly different). it'll sell like hotcakes because there is SOOO many things you can do. Historical will never sell WELL again because we've been spoiled with immense Varity in WH1,2,& 3. I mean what innovation can you do in a historical combat situation? Flank harder? I've played and loved them all but I revisited the oldies ME2, Rome2, Shogun 2, etc and holy cow was i bored silly. I found i was just trying to recapture how i felt when they were new any shiny but alas its like your first joint, that high you can never get back... now i need meth laced with coke!!

[@TheRewasder97]

More than half my hours in HOI4 are into the fallout mod, Old World Blues

[@drezjin2594]

It's nice to see someone talking about how modern audiences don't really interact well with those they consider "outsiders" for reason x or y. It's gonna be really hard to find someone negatively ranting about anything you said unless their completely delusional lmao.

[@akwakatsaka1826]

It’s really simple…. New TW->Arcady (health bars etc) Old TW-> More realistic

[@taylorturant8567]

Legend is trying to have it both ways, but he can't point to a single reason why CA would be able to make a good historical title now, and he hasn't enjoyed one since Shogun 2 like 12 years ago. Apollo was making a personal point about why historical games have significance for him that a fantasy IP doesn't and he's definitely not alone there. I don't really consider digital Games Workshop IP fantasy as Total War. (yes, I know lot's of people do and get them mixed up all the time). One thing we've learned over the past eight years or so is that CA isn't capable of making two different kinds of TW games at the same time, it's one assembly line. They are a GW sub now and have fallen off as Total War developers.

[@cerboris521]

I think a true fan is someone who likes the games and wants future games to be good so they will like them. That's it. Time in games, amount of games doesn't matter. I've only played 4 titles of Total War, linking Warhammer as 1 game. I played the very first game Shogun, Rome 1, Medieval 1 and all the Warhammer. I even played the board game Shogun which the first game was based off. I consider myself a true fan though even though my amount of games and hours played are miniscule compared to other players. I just want to play the games I like and want the future ones to be in that category. A true fan.

[@MrWiggles00706]

I would argue the point you made about Total War Pharoh. I think the timeframe should be taken to context as well. Shadows of Change flop was around August of 2023, which was three months before Total War Pharoh. Not to mention with Hyenas flopping that year as well. I think people being angry at the time also contributed to Pharoh's lack of success. Track records can be a huge factor on player retention, so I believe that also contributed to people not being into Pharoh as well as the other points you made. Just a small interjection I want to make, otherwise you nailed it.

[@RockyX123]

14:55 "It's how I grew as a person. I listen to other people and take on their advice and adapt to it. I'm right 100% of the time and other people are wrong!" Does this mean Legend will back track on his opinion of Merchants in Medieval 2 😚

[@TheRingoism]

I liked every Total War until Rome 2, I even liked Empire. Rome 2 onwards there's a clear shift in gameplay and ground work of the battle engine, It feels so weightless and static. Plus a lot of campaign choices I dislike came in with Rome 2 and stuck.

[@cmLMolde]

They got "f***" by not investing enough in the battle engine in my eyes. Its the "opposite" problem for paradox, they almost overinvested on the engine, making the games feel a bit too similar and feels bareboned until dlcs and patches pads it out with flavour. But i rather have a game with potential, than limitations.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

Empire had flaws but they were trying new things i hoped the learned from. Rome 2 was a hard no for me

[@SagaciousOwl]

I don't care about the launch but rome 2 is a decent game now. It's literally the only game that they tried to go back and fix the issues over the years and CA should have the credits

[@TheRingoism]

@SagaciousOwl Sorry mate, as much as I'd like to agree with you I can't, I've tried to give Rome 2 a second chance because of comments like yours but the battles still feel and look the same, they can't change it, it's a deep rooted engine issue and I hate the generals locked to armies which removes any strategy and freedom on the campaign map

[@IceniTotalWar]

@@paulrasmussen8953 ETW had a bad launch, Rome 2 had a disastrous launch, I gave CA credit for ETW because brand new setting and game engine, Rome 2 they had plenty of time , money, tech, manpower and messed up .

[@dantaylor9665]

Total War's core selling point for new players is the spectacle. I came into Total War in the early 2010s, new to stategy games in general, simply amazed that you can have thousands of individuals all actually fighting. You can control a country and see the impacts all the way down to a single soldier fighting another. I later came to appreciate the strategic angle more. Features come and go in Total Wars (literally every single title), but the absolute vibe-killer for me was the removal of matched combat animations. You don't have that grounding anymore, it's just more abstracted fights like any other game. I also really miss naval battles, even though they were never my favourite - it's now just another layer the player is removed, just because CA cba to implement them anymore. I could understand and forgive these being gone in the Warhammer games, which can get by with the massive fanbase for the franchise, but stripping these two simple things from historical titles feels like castrating the IP they established with the successful early-2010s games. Think fans who want to see these games succeed need to stop sometimes and think: what brought me to these games in the first place? Is that still applicable (both in game and the wider environment in the market)? If not, what's needed to restore it?

[@guti_____v1232]

You've got Manscaped sponsorhip coming up anytime soon?

[@LegendofTotalWar]

lol yep. maybe tomorrow

[@Lutz2]

@@LegendofTotalWar Remember no Manscaped sponsorship in any Dwarf content, or its another grudging for you.

[@SleepyFen]

@@Lutz2 Advertising shaving is always a grudgin', but they also have beard oils and other skin care products. Every Dwarf knows that a beard must be properly cared for.

[@guti_____v1232]

@@LegendofTotalWar Nice. Wanted some stuff so might aswell support you

[@reav3rtm]

Manscaped invests more in YT marketing than improving their products. I looked other way myself.

[@MrMatijaaaa]

Respect for putting out one of few reactions that doesn't just talk over the original video but only references it and makes it's own point.

[@yangsunlight]

The comments are so weird here lol I don't really agree with PA's views on Warhammer Total War and I do think that he contributes to the divide in the community. I wish everyone would just play what they want to play and leave others alone. I don't think Total War will be like how it used to be and bear in mind I've been a fan since 2009 I think? Started with Medieval 2 and Rome 1. Now I play WH3 way more and absolutely love it. I love both historical and fantasy. The issue is with CA's management, the suits in my opinion have ruined the franchise and it's the people doing the actual work that are trying to save it. I do agree that Total War is... Lesser than what it used to be. I'm not sure if it's fallen persay but I do think it may happen if it continues. The whole vote with your wallet thing never made much sense to me, if a product is bad then people should not buy it period unless it gets fixed in the future. It's a fantasy world where I want the community to work together as a whole and decide Total War's fate. We have no control or say, we can influence with enough push but will that change the entire franchise or CA as a company? I'm not so sure.

[@henkkoonstra4014]

We want empire 2 or medieval 3 Come on! what is weird about that? We've been waiting for a decade.

[@yangsunlight]

@@henkkoonstra4014 Me too man me too. Medieval 3 is something I'd pay a lot of money for (if it is good and not an absolute mess XD)

[@adambrande]

nothing wrong with liking Warhammer but liking every slop CA produces because it's Warhammer is the reason things are the way they are. WH series could have had better game mechanics if people didn't make the entire series their only personality. History community prefers the old history games for the most part because the gameplay feels impactful and every unit you have at your disposal have a purpose. Now you got slop for a siege battle and easy to cheese tactical battles but at least I have dragons!

[@sarahhatesit]

I am not a total war fan at all, I haven't played since like 2012 but I still watch you regularly, your voice and S tier gameplay always keep me coming back.

[@judechauhan6715]

They listened and went back to fix Rome 2 with family trees and some other stuff. It wasn't an improvement or even as good as R1 but it was good and I enjoyed that game! Why is it now impossible to get right? I understand if they don't want to mess it up with the expected sequels, Medieval 3, Empire 2 etc but with the rest still no? I liked Thrones of Britannia's food system and settlements not having a garrison and recruitment takes time etc. It felt like a step in the right direction until it wasn't.

[@corkmars]

These kinds of videos are always entertaining from you lol

[@MG_Majesty]

“Legend of Total War here and today we got a saving your disaster company”

[@IceniTotalWar]

1 of his hardest challenges ever, working with very little ( CA ) 🤣🤣

[@maleficdagon4538]

I miss the Family tree, having natural traits like, defend for a defender trait. Nicknames like William the Crusader had good vibes, Marriage and princesses were good.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

f that it is total war not ck3 tryng to the sims ...heart of iron type ft total war beter

[@maleficdagon4538]

@jessicalacasse6205 I prefer medieval 2 total war or shogun 2 total war

[@angmori172]

Nah, you are wrong. You can make very reliable categories of people and generalize accordingly. CA made this into a zero-sum game for the fans. They fed the new fans at the cost of the true fans. Just because someone can ATTEMPT to turn your arguments against you, doesn't somehow mean that they will be right, or that your argument was flawed. 'we're the true fans because we're the ones keeping TW alive' is objectively bullshit. You don't get to waltz into someone else's hobby decades after the fact and declare yourself a 'true' fan because the hobby finally incorporated something you already like. And maybe he doesn't care that those who are already opposed to him is going to pick apart his arguments? Because people are not just going to do that, if they can't find legit flaws, they'll make some up, or just generally miss the point anyway. TW is a corpse that has been made a puppet to dance for the RTS equivalent of CoD-kids.

[@Somone_final_final_v2]

He is saying both older and new fans are both "true" fans. I dont see how both fans arent as valid as each other. You can make invalidating arguments for both fans but it doesnt help. What is important is CA makes games that support multiple types of fans and right now this is what they are failing at. Dont blame the people that like TWW on CA making crappy historical saga like games because the TWW crowd didnt support those games.

[@angmori172]

@Somone_final_final_v2 and I'm saying I view that as complete BS. The fans who made the company a success can absolutely be declared as more valid than the normies who swarmed in during the WH era. And those normies are exactly why CA made crap historical games. Those historical games are crap in large part because they adopted the WH style and features. And the people who do play those games, except maybe Britannia, have a massive overlap with the WH dregs. And those normie dregs have happily let CA get away with delivering mediocre slop in both 'genres'. OG fans are by definition not the reason the series has become garbage slop. We are the ones constantly pushing back. So when you try to put those of us who have pushed back time and time again, in the same category as those who cause the problem, I absolutely refuse to accept your BS 'hurr durr no true scotsman everything is a spectrum we're all the same' arguments. We are not the same. Categories and delineations are logical and valid. Gatekeeping is morally justified and based.

[@cataphracts123]

Thanks for vocalizing this. I agree with the perspective you have on it. I don't like doom-and-glooming everything as irredeemable before the wheels actually do fall off. I think there's still some sound minds in the company capable of responding to fans and market signals.

[@yisun-sin5780]

CA got the same medicine that has gotten to Blizzard. When they stop hearing what the fans want and just make decisions because " I am a huge manager and I know better than you what you want to play"

[@GG-ou7it]

The “fans” are morons look how many idiots bought a wow mount recently 😂

[@Ariaelyne]

depending on the game, I wouldn't really trust Blizzard fans with game decisions either; WoW constantly has people whining because exploits get patched out and they suddenly have to play the game.

[@yisun-sin5780]

@@Ariaelyne ok Im not such a big fan of Blizzard, but you cant deny that the rework of Warcraft 3 was terrible, as far as I am familiar the Diablo fans are also very disappointed, one of my best friends is Diablo fan

[@Nugundamsisntforshow]

​@@AriaelyneMaybe people complain about playing the game because the actual gameplay is tedious or something

[@Ariaelyne]

@@yisun-sin5780 Diablo I won't argue with, but Warcraft 3 was much more an issue of mismanagement rather then the managers having a different idea then the fans. At several points they essentially showcased completely different game ideas and then released a game that was just decidedly lesser then the game it was remaking.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Radical idea : listen to what the fans want. About the threat coming from Paradox, it's even worse than you think. A CK3 mod allows playing real-time battles in M&B2 Bannerlords in a way comparable to TW (a real-time instance separated from the strategic map). What will happen to TW if Paradox starts experimenting with a real-time battle as a vanilla option, even if it only more or less matches R1/M2, while already having a much superior strategic part ?

[@auroraborealissaltmineswarlord]

"total war has fallen, millions must cry"

[@johnspain]

love the channel man thanks so much for keeping up the content I played alot of total war but have stopped since the first playing tw3

[@derigel7662]

Age of empires 2: killing it and pushing out amazing content Total war: struggling to keep fans around, push crap half baked content

[@BloodyArchangelus]

Remake of old game which is playing by 100+ k people. Lmao just shut up.

[@DahakaProd]

Eh, AOE2 DE is also pushing a lot of useless shit as 15€ dlc and people are getting sick of it, it's even worse that some of those are just custom scenarios baked into a "campaign" without a civ to play outside, if anything I'd say AOE2 dev cycle is getting closer to Total War

[@derigel7662]

@@DahakaProd nah not even close dude. You just sound like a spoiled child. Mind specifying what you are talking about? We legit just got AOE1 in AOE2 engine and getting content for that. AOE is no where near the level that Shadow of Change was. And this is more of a cope/excuse but AOE2 is a 30+ year old game and is still kicking. WH1,2,3 is like not even 10+ and they have been screwing this up since 1 with the warriors of chaos and Norsca as add ons...remember that debacle?

[@DahakaProd]

@@derigel7662 Victors and Vanquished, Return of Rome missing half of its audio files? Just because you eat shit for breakfast and pay for it doesn't mean everyone else does, same shit with WH3 Shadows of Change lol

[@hughroe8598]

I think it's bit rich that an aoe2 fan is suggesting others are spoilt children for having a different opinion. Aoe2 has in my opinion the most toxic community of any actively played rts and is full of man children thinking everything since it's release is shit. Maybe don't start your response by actively denigrating someone's opinion

[@BaileyBPF]

I simply want to say that I have so much respect for you for trying to encourage intelligent discourse. You don't necessarily need all the answers but you can at least set a standard for how we should approach discussion to get the best experience out of these games.

[@Jukahetube]

On the historical side of things I think I would prefer a mid 1500s - late 1600s game over Medieval 3. Mostly because it would be new to total war. I may be in the minority but the ship battles in Empire appealed to me conceptually, and they could do that again but better. The period also has gunpowder but has plenty of non-gunpowder units on the battlefield. At the beginning, you would still have archers and crossbows around (and a lot of early firearms), as well as naval vessels with oars, by the end we are at Napoleon. So there is plenty of scope for a tech tree with major impacts on the battlefield. There are plenty of historical events in this period. In England alone you have the Wars of the Roses and the Civil War.

[@dershi786]

4:00 I was happy as soon as you mentioned this was the fallacy with his argument. For me for example, a big problem with recent titles is the whole hero/lord thing where a single entity is able to completely disregard combat mechanics but he goes into an argument of history vs fantasy and then comes across as arguing for purity instead of the other problems like poor monetization, mechanics, etc. It even sounds worse when you consider the fantasy franchises he is bashing. Warhammer isn't close enough to history? That isn't the truth. It's easily close enough but the problem is in the manner it is implemented in the games which should be the subject of his arguments not necessarily 'magic has no place in warfare'

[@dershi786]

This is a tangent but let's say they keep the hero/lord thing. Would increasing unit sizes or how the lords interact with the armies help? Because in stories (well written ones), even though we have the hero tear through multiple enemy units, the impact isn't as drastic as what we tend to see in the total war games (even though to be fair, that might be a dramatic tension thing)

[@SwordEncarmine]

I refer to Volounds "Total Decline: A Total War Analysis" Series on KZbin. Total War is about battles, the campaign only serves to give meaning and context to the battles. The engine sucks and is outdated. Single entitities kill the tension. Formation dont exist anymore, Morale is completely nonexistent, projectiles in WH are a complete joke (velocity wise), Immolation of the players freedom (limited building slots, armies, cant split armies anymore). The spreadsheating of total war it has become 2% bonus manager. WH is a dlc pipeline with a very soft consumer base willing to buy the same game over and over. WH inherits the terrible legacy of Rome 2 . The core design and engine are just objectively worse than the older Total Wars (Up to shogun 2 )

[@zaras64]

I strongly agree with the 95% right 5%wrong dismissive theory, my take is what is happening to CA is the same thing that what happened with blizzard, old passionate developers left / were let off and replaced with drones from suits who dont give a rats @ss about the games they dont even play them all they care is more dlc more microtransactions sell reskins and low cost games with older code so we dont have to make new code minimize cost maximize profit and i get that to a reasonable extent thou. Western games have been monetized to such an extent we now have thousands of games per year and only maybe a dozen are good whereas in old good days we had like 200 games and 150 of them were good and memorable. The only way we users have to guide the market is by not buying those games so that the suits are forced to produce good passionate games like their decent predecessors did without the need for a carrot and a stick

[@potatortheomnipotentspud]

Total Warhammer has fallen Players must pay millions for DLC

[@ScipioScandinavia]

I will not buy any game until Medieval 3 comes out. I still play the old historic titles from time to time.

[@LeonZakin]

Cmon creative assembly!! Just make a medieval 3 MAKE YOUR COMMUNITY HAPPY!!!

[@avacyn2000]

@@jondoe-qi3voThis is so true.

[@mike7236]

@@jondoe-qi3vo Wouldn't surprise me if the game start with 4 kingdoms and the rest locked behind DLC.

[@Winston-lf7sb]

​​@@jondoe-qi3vo that and unless ca can make 200+ dlc's to bilk their customers they wont. ca is not a great strategy game maker. they make a lot of player traps as legend calls them which are actually trigger events. these are to make up for actual ai and strategy. legend has shown that ca encourages extremely faulty gameplay and playing in a style that would be considered tactical mistakes because the ai will then simply play worse. ca needs to: stop copying paradox scam model actually come up with some strategic ai and not solely rely on ai cheats and triggered player traps.

[@LeonZakin]

​@@Winston-lf7sbYeah, i think they can make it IF they listen to thw community

[@Winston-lf7sb]

@@LeonZakin well now since you put it that way..... CA is doomed

[@sethketa]

One thing is that the way you present an argument is important. If you have to wade through a bunch of crap to get to something, then it doesn't matter how good that thing is, people are not going to bother. And that goes for valid points and criticism as well. Your elevator pitch matters. I haven't watched Apollo's video and have no desire to. I've not been in a TW mood lately, but I enjoy Legend's videos, so he tends to be the only exception. That said, I've read that to reach his valid criticisms you have to suffer through obnoxious behavior. So, for that, I don't blame anyone who wants to just move on and not give him the time of day. People are only willing to dedicate so much time to any one thing, so you gotta ensure you're able to grab their attention quickly. But if you do that by being abrasive or controversial, it can very easily blow up in your face. It can sometimes suck that we have to curate how we express ourselves to avoid being shut down, but that's part of the social contract I suppose.

[@shieldphaser]

Well. I've been off the total war train for a while. The unit replenishment system which came out as far back as... at least attila? I'm not sure exactly when, but my contempt for that mechanic has chased me off from their titles for over a decade. There's really no reason I shouldn't just keep playing medieval 2 instead. Plus, the price tags of their modern titles with their hordes of DLC is just ridiculous.

[@GafferPerkele]

TW: Napoleon is where it first appeared. I recall looking at it and going "eh, I guess, but I liked the old system more" and then it stuck in Shogun 2 onwards in all future titles. Replenishment mechanic really has 2 modes, especially in TW:WH series, you either get none and have to spend eternity getting anything back or it's a non-feature, because you replenish from 1 to 100 in 1 turn.

[@shieldphaser]

@@GafferPerkele Ah, earlier than I thought. I don't like the mechanic because it takes away all the satisfaction of damaging the enemy army in a losing battle, and that sort of bleeds over into my enjoyment of the game as a whole. At least with the old system, most of the damage stuck.

[@catoblepasomega]

Combined with the way modern TW artificially limits the number of armies you can control by tying them to commanders, using hard/soft caps etc It really disincentivizes using anything other than the most elite units available. I remember in M2TW I'd often have lots of mid-low tier units even late game to bulk out my armies and absorb losses I couldn't afford on my elite units. Now you just fill your armies with elites because they can recoup losses in a turn or two of replenishment just as easy as your chaff, and because fewer armies of elite units actually costs less than more armies of weaker units do to the tax you get slapped with for extra armies. Now add the way TW:Warhammer encourages you to take skills to buff up units, and you'll see your armies even more specialized with less unit diversity. Modern TW games are really saddled with some questionable gameplay mechanics.

[@MattMcMatt]

If we hadn't invented gravity, Total War never would've fallen

[@joel6513]

Do yourself a favor and never open Reddit another day of your life, I did and I don't regret it, that whole site is toxic as hell and is massively influenced by bots.

[@koob2128]

not that I like reddit, but I think bro missed his entire point about dismissal

[@Azariven]

Man... having watched you for over ten years. The level of maturity you've shown now vs then is wow.

[@azpont7275]

I feel like if they wanna make a mainstream 40K game, it'd would have great chances bc of the recently successful 40K titles that went mainstream. Also, they probably have a lot more experience and assets ready for that than a SW game, for which I'd think they'd need to innovate more. Also, many SW fans are probably a bit burned out from Disney slops at the moment, as am I.

[@bewawolf19]

I honestly don't think it will. Unit LOS, tight unit controls and suchlike are things CA never successfully resolved well in their titles. Hell, was Empire total war the last game where you could have skirmishing units take cover behind spots in the terrain (Not buildings, but just random walls separating fields and suchlike)? CA has had issues with having skirmishing at all, and in a warhammer 40k skirmishing is going to be much more the focus of the combat.

[@adambrande]

​@@bewawolf19almost as if those issues wouldn't exist if CA tried, you know... Innovating?

[@bewawolf19]

@@adambrande How does them failing at every attempt at skirmishing previously have anything to do with innovation?

[@CastledCard]

Tbh I don't want CA to make a Medieval 3 because they don't know how to make that style of game anymore

[@EzylrybSoren]

the part that makes me laugh is the hole single entity arguments as I both love and hate this idea. in a historical game for your general being able to solo the enemy army is a massive problem for me. this is why I haven't gotten any of the new historical titles but in the sense of Warhammer total war the monster single entities makes it fun to play. i just wish that the steam problem would allow me to play rome2 and shogun 2 again

[@5chr4pn3ll]

If the title has a question mark, the answer is always no.

[@ejire4407]

I just love the "complete trash" category in your steam library 😆😆. I'm curious of what you put in it.

[@Deadsmegma]

thought it already fallen? and Sega flew over and said wtf, fix it..? Pharoh got better?

[@gareth3035]

so theres also a mod that adds battle compatibility to Attila for CK3, allowing you to do your campaigns in CK3 and fight in Attila. Great mod. There is compatibility from 400AD if you want all the way to 1500, or even in LOTR through the dawnless days mod

[@CameronAB122]

Been using it a lot myself. Wish you could mod fantasy units in Attila for the ck3 mods lol

[@Orendiz]

Most common way TW players dismiss any arguments about what total war fans want is when bringing up "historical vs fantasy". No, the setting does not matter. Those who thought shogun 2 was a great total war and think total war should go back to that, do not like Rome 2 even though they are both historical. Med2 players been playing fantasy mods for med2 and love those fantasy mods as much as they liked older "historical" titles. "oh historical fans dont like x game becouse its fantasy" no, we dont like the new fantasy game becouse we thinl the new title is objectively a downgrade from the last, not becouse it has dragons or goblins... historical vs fantasy fans categorizing is the biggest scapegoat/dismissal way on why ppl think newer total wars are bad/good.

[@Schaden-freude]

most people did not like rome 2 when it came out. it took years to even sorta reverse course

[@nathanspreitzer6738]

Historical fans by and large do not play warhammer and vis versa

[@Orendiz]

@@nathanspreitzer6738 go ahead, dont bother reading what i said about historical vs fantasy being a fallacy.