The Constitution of the Spartans

[@MrVlogman101]

You know, i thought the roman political system was pretty odd and arcane. But the Spartans have a dual monarchy that has absolute power, except when it doesn't, a elected Senate that is chosen partially randomly that can pass whatever the hell they want with a public assembly and punish kings , except when an all male aristocracy decided no , a female aristocracy that is overwhelmingly rich but can't vote, and a population so terrified of its own slaves that it ritually committed atrocities against them. Compared to that Roman politics look simple and elegant.

[@MrDoob-xo3sm]

how on earth is your comment two days ago when the video was JUST uploaded?

[@Zulhilmij]

Patreon supporters get early access to videos

[@vesteel]

Those are no Patreon supporters, They're time travellers

[@YeetYeet-mi7if]

Mr. Doob Magic~

[@theChon100]

Patreon probably.

[@rkitchen1967]

The number of Spartiates (citizens) fell over time because it was possible to lose that status if one couldn't meet one's obligations, such as providing food for one's mess. On the other hand, it was not possible to become a Spartiate if you were not born to that status. Economic decline cost many their citizenship.

[@thedarkmaster4747]

True. They couldn't replenish their losses as a society.

[@marcusanark2541]

It appears to have been true.

[@LuizAlexPhoenix]

There were also many that couldn't produce "fit" children, so they died without leaving enough heirs. Each marriage would need at least 2 girls and 2 boys in a time when the women and children could die during childbirth, infancy or disease.

[@williamdissing1041]

@CipiRipi00 add to that the fact they got married very late in life due to all the requirements before being allowed. 30 years of age. After a series of lost battles, how are they ever going to repopulate the society?

[@bigbo1764]

Sparta declined as well as Athens, the only reason Athens is such a large city today is due to it being where English and American investors chose to open factories in Greece. Over the Middle Ages Greece in general was in decline and Sparta and Athens were comparable in population. Sure, lack of upward mobility didn’t help, but the ancient world lacked upward mobility in general, Rome and Carthage were “better” than the Greeks, but in general peasants and slaves were always peasants and slaves. Upward mobility as a right was really only conceived in the enlightenment, and countries like the U.S. would be the ones to pioneer upward mobility as a founding principle. It really isn’t as big of a deal as you make it out to be, and the lack of economic mobility generally prevented it from happening enough to detrimentally effect the city state.

[@nonyabeeznuss304]

There was a festival in Sparta where the male helots were forced to get puking drunk then dance and sing a song functionally boiled down as "I'm a useless idiot" while all the spartan citizens laughed at them. Humiliating and degrading the helots on every single physical and psychological level was an integral part of the Spartan lifestyle

[@ChocorocK]

What the point of having servile inferiors when you don't rub the fact in their faces from time to time?

[@nonyabeeznuss304]

@Janjão Jonata Well, they DID enslave an entire population of people. You don't accomplish that by being nice.

[@nwahnerevar9398]

@Wyatt Earp just because the ancient greeks thought something was good, doesn't make it so

[@UFOhunter4711]

@Yul Hubbart didnt the Greeks write about the Persians? Maybe Xerxes was actually cool

[@kles44]

Sparta only subjugated the tribes that deserved it. Remember, the helots were at first at war with the Spartansand would have treated them just As bad if the Spartans lost. If anything the stability provided by the Spartans allowed the helots stability and growth. placing modem morals on past events is not a good way to understand the past.

[@scottjuhnke6825]

Spartans also suffered from a complete lack of upward mobility. A Spartiate could lose his status by not being able to meet his mess obligations. Once lost, the status they had was gone forever. This certainly was a contributing factor in the decline of Sparta.

[@lorefox201]

I'd say the main one

[@andrewbingham3304]

@@lorefox201 I'd say the main factor of the decline of Sparta is their inheritance laws ensuring all their political power conglomerated into their women. Historically, women becoming the primary electorate has directly preceded the downfall of many empires.

[@lorefox201]

@@andrewbingham3304 that was part of it for sure, but at some point the manpower issue became unsolvable

[@michealwilliams472]

@@andrewbingham3304 The government was made up entirely of men comprised of this upper class of Spartiates (roughly 3% or less of the population by most estimates). If they wanted to reform, they could have done so easily. The didn't want reform, because it benefitted those at the top (both men and women) heavily. Making someone a Spartiate meant they had to be given land, which means land would have to be taken from those in power. The Gerousia mentioned in this video are the epitome of what went wrong with Sparta. Everyone "elected" to that position was part of the super ultra-wealthy (the upper class of the upper class; think the Jeff Bezos or Warren Buffets); the wealthy are not going to pass laws to willingly give up their wealth. Shit, they had a legendary military genius whose expertise defeated Athens in naval warfare, and they wouldn't make that guy a Spartiate. Sparta was undone by greedy, indolent rich people.

[@andrewbingham3304]

@@michealwilliams472 And who were the rich people? The women who profited from the deaths of the men. All men had to fight and it was unlikely to outlive your wife, or even get to have a wife to be honest. Inherited money was conglomerated into a select few women who had tremendous political power even if they didn't hold office.

[@jamescarrico1233]

I think Cicero praised the Spartans for good reason. Two kings- two consuls Ephors- magistrates Gerousia-senate And both had plebiscites to pass laws. These systems seem very similar.

[@elenatroiae]

the men of rome did model themselves after greek ideals. the roman republic began in 509 BC, not long before greeces golden age in the 400s

[@Aragon1500]

Yep just constantly expanded citizenship

[@e1123581321345589144]

The roman system is much more complex and much more flexible.

[@aesop1451]

The Ephors specifically seem like the Censors of the Roman Republic in that they could formally bring charges against the King. One of the duties of the Roman Censors was to be in charge of supervising public morality.

[@Lucifer_Morningstar_F4LL1N1]

In Greek Gerousia(Γερουσία) literally means Senate

[@maximaldinotrap]

Wait a minute, 300 body guards per king? That sounds awfully familiar.

[@timothystamm3200]

Yes that's who remained with Leonidas at Thermopylae.

[@frnweclipse3130]

that’s why it wasn’t war, Leonidas was just “taking a walk”

[@BubblewrapHighway]

And by awful, you must mean Zack Snyder.

[@maximaldinotrap]

@Titus Robertson I said it sounded awfully familiar, never said that it was a lot.

[@gloriesnormaldude7513]

@@maximaldinotrap and the bodyguards hade 3 slaves each

[@roguevector1268]

5:35 did I just witness a drive-by mass bribery?

[@frankzaffuto3670]

I believe we did

[@IRussian007]

Just making it rain on them.

[@atlasotm]

Extremely accurate money shotgun

[@italianstallion7272]

no you didn't *throws gold bags at you*

[@thedarkmaster4747]

XD

[@samdoesvids1339]

So...Ancient Sparta was a Constitutional Theocratic Direct Diarchy...I always just assumed Sparta was an Absolute Monarchy.

[@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014]

Me too, they are more complex than the general knowledge

[@dexterjettster8875]

I always assumed that the just went around killing people.

[@TribuneAquila]

I think what mosr fascinating to me is the importance they put in defense, which at first thought we think of thier military, but often we forget the importance they put on diplomacy and i find thier rhetoric aspect as most fascinating.

[@Talematros]

@@davidperrier6149 They were, of the Doric branch. Back then there were different branches of greeks, the Athenians were Attic for example, whereas Crete and Sparta was Doric. The locals were acheans maybe, thus the Doric spartans came and conquered them, but they were just as greek. Only different dialect.

[@doubtingthomas6146]

You’re fooling yourself. We’re living in a dictatorship. A self perpetuating autocracy, in which the working classes... oh, wait. Wrong video....

[@fakename3344]

20:18 You accidentally recreated the floating dots optical illusion with the Gerousia squares.

[@morpheus6749]

lol

[@joshuanezat4394]

oh shit

[@Pablo8927]

Came here to say that too.

[@bearcatben4762]

Accidentally

[@arkoudiou]

That happens in every video they make...

[@thomasvrielink299]

20:53 WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH CICERO! CICERO IS SUPPOSED TO BE SQUARE!

[@Dantick09]

Thomas Vrielink this made me laugh xD

[@marcustulliuscicero9512]

Thomas Vrielink I like it.

[@thomasvrielink299]

Marcus Tullius Cicero IMPOSTER!

[@Noone-rc9wf]

Thomas Vrielink AND XENOPHON??? AAHHHHHH BURN IT WITH FIREEEEEEEEEE THE WORLD WILL END *WHAT SHALL WE EVER DO?!!!!*

[@유조나]

The world falls because Cicero was not made a square. ;-;

[@shkeni]

This is a good video, but is missing a super important point at the end: The cause for the decline of Spartan power was its defeat by Epaminondas of Thebes and his freeing of Messenia (the land of the Helots). He also founded Messene in Messenia and Megalopolis in Arcadia for the Helots, which became a powerful check to Sparta. Spartan power never recovered from this death blow to its slave economy and continued to wither away into the nothingness you describe. Epaminondas is mostly forgotten today, but he was one of the greatest men of antiquity. It was him and Pelopidas who put to bed the myth of Spartan invincibility and freed an entire people who had been enslaved for centuries. So in a way, the crippling blow did come from other Greeks, and the Helots did participate in it.

[@cassius573]

Thanks for enriching the knowledge even further. Now it all makes sense.

[@johnryanobejero1868]

I like the fact that the number of likes on the comment has been (deliberately?) kept at 69 XD. I salute all the people who kept it that way

[@cathaloconnor6577]

@@johnryanobejero1868 maybe back to the future fans are keeping it at 88 atm lol.

[@ursulabergen980]

Please learn to understand historical events. The defeat by the Thebans was not the cause of the decline. The decline was the cause of the defeat. It is reported, I do not remember any more by whom, that the day previous to the battle a Spartan detachment of seven hoplites raped a local girl, can you imagine that? Spartans raped women? unheard of. It is also reported that many Spartan soldiers went to the battle drunk. Both things unheard of, for 500 years. By the way, because your soul can not apparently bear to know people (what about other animals?) in slavery. After a bloody war of 30 years the Spartans were victorious and made the Messenians slaves, called Heilots. Can you please tell me what would the Messenians have done with the Spartans if they, themselves, the Messenians, were victorious?? To paraphrase a German saying: Democracy has short legs. It does not bring you very far.

[@phaedrussocrates7636]

I just wish Athena and others did better in wiping this despicable Spartan-nazi state much sooner!

[@CP4884]

The way you tell a story with naught but squares, optical illusions (possibly unintended, yet surely not unnoticed), and chat bubbles is incredibly captivating. Thank's for making these videos.

[@Sawrattan]

I love it, it's very simple and oddly soothing and not too distracting. Brilliant format.

[@alkeenan7906]

Ugh just say nothing

[@Robotomy101]

@@alkeenan7906 wtf

[@MrBrukmann]

​@@Robotomy101 One common thread with narcissists aside from other personality types I am aware of, is their visceral hatred for anyone else being praised. They are the ones who take competition too seriously in sports, fight dirty, etc. alkeenan7906 sees an elegant animation (simple, but effective) and equates it to overall crudity and categorical simplicity, something his "genius" and "superiority" could so easily outstrip, he has a right to be offended! (in his mind) Funny enough, the narcissist routinely fails to prove their imaginary abilities; if he tried to make even such a "crude" animation, he would quickly find it is more difficult than he thought, and devolve into an egotistical meltdown where he tells himself some excuse to not complete his "much more awesomer and worthy of praise than Historia Civilis" animation.

[@Strideo1]

The constitution of the Spartans must have been pretty good. It does take a lot of endurance to hold those shields and spears.

[@elzian4975]

r/NotKenM

[@drewfisher1619]

Ooh... you got me there

[@noamaviv1216]

What do you think the average score was?

[@annashuttleworth576]

qa

[@gamergril5940]

Once an Ephor served his term he was barred from...Ephor serving again?

[@n0denz]

Probably because the Spartans were aware that the Ephors could act like corrupt little mother-effers with too much power.

[@robbielobster3212]

*Mother Ephors

[@AxelCross]

BOOOOOOO puns are never okay this is bad you should feel bad

[@JonDunham]

Nice metephor.

[@YourXavier]

Bad puns are the best puns.

[@thegradualreport]

Can't show a pig being slaughtered, can show a poor defenceless box being tortured to death.... War, War never changes.

[@ol-si4lx]

genius

[@sweatysocks8214]

NO LONGER IN USE War has changed.

[@JimzAuto]

Actually, war has changed. With psychology being introduced and the study of human behavior, smart leaders know using their personnel to torture enemies ends up being counterproductive.

[@reinatr4848]

He showed the latter in 'Ceasar In Gaul: REVOLT!' video.

[@fluffynator6222]

@@JimzAuto Why that?

[@SameBasicRiff]

This "Chronological Order" playlist you have, Historia, is one I come back too all the time. Such good info!! At first I was like "tiny squares and nothing else? bland! boring... lame, uh, wait, so then... and they did what? Awesome!" Haha this is great! Good stuff! Love the squares and how clear it all is!

[@randomstuff463]

so easy to binge

[@MisterBones2910]

"intemperance and luxury sounds like a good time" Mate, if _ancient Greeks_ were complaining about degenerate behaviour it was probably getting pretty crazy.

[@ApollonianSoldier]

Nowhere near to the degeneracy of today lmao

[@petervey4966]

HA!

[@W.Isarnorix.D]

@@boyikr We're headed that way though it seems. Rinse, repeat.

[@festethephule7553]

I have to wonder how much of that was sexism though. I mean, this is *ancient Greece* after all, and Aristotle himself was quite sexist.

[@justincooper1884]

maybe, or maybe he was right. We'll never know the truth of the matter all we can do is project our own thoughts/feelings onto him.

[@firejuggler31]

The Spartans rolled an 18 on Constitution but only a 3 on Agility.

[@arentak2773]

But in 5E, low agility is irrelevant if you're wearing heavy armor.

[@sunset-inn]

@@arentak2773 Stop using 5e.

[@Tacticslion]

@@sunset-inn As someone who legitimately prefers a number of other systems... ain't nothing wrong with using 5e. It's pretty good, actually. :D (I really like how they handle their conditions, for D&D.)

[@sunset-inn]

@@Tacticslion Anything is better than 4e.

[@Tacticslion]

@@sunset-inn Weeeeeeelllllll... ... ... ... I've actually played 4e, and have even loved it, but it's a VERY mixed bag. I continue to find things I admire in 4e as a system that I wish I could import to others that just... doesn't work in the other systems (and only sometimes works in its own). "Wow! This is SUCH a good idea! Too bad it sucks!" 4e is in many ways a work of brilliance both hampered by and enhanced by the fact that it's Dungeons & Dragons. It's a solid combat simulator with really great mechanical ideas, that serve much better in a computational system than in Pencil and Paper (with more situational bonuses and actions than anything 3.X ever dreamed of, even with all its myriad of bonuses) and it very unfortunately tried to hammer the very square D&D pegs into a very round 4e hole. And round is a great shape! ... but it's not really the shape of D&D. ... ... ... ... well, okay, guess, given the shape of the Great Wheel, it *is* actually a circle... but you all know what I mean! XD The problems with 4e D&D are actually rather analogous to 3.0 Psionics: absolute genius and fascinating construction and absolute dumpster fire *at the same time*. (3.5 Psionics, however, is a work of untarnished perfection and I will not hear anything against it! ... mostly because this is written text, not out loud. And also because nobody talks about the Complete Psionics book.) Comparatively, though, without question, 5e manages to grasp much of the feel and understanding of D&D that was (sometimes intentionally and sometimes incidentally and sometimes mistakenly) abandoned by 4e in its various decisions.

[@sarasamaletdin4574]

Congrats on your 50th video. Here is hoping next 50 will come out soon.

[@rmd251]

At once.

[@delta4093]

+klovervibe I'd watch all of them in one pop if that happened! If only-

[@soumajitsen1395]

It hasn't

[@martinbeckdorf4565]

I studied Roman Law back in Law School. Your videos on laws and constitution are extremely interesting, and the ones covering smalled polities like Sparta give an interesting glimpse on how smaller and younger societies experimented, and how culture played a role in it. (like Helot-Homoioi relationships and the Heraclean lines). I wonder how much can be known about semitic constitutions, like in Tyre, Carthage or the Kingdom of Israel, which I recall made institutions in the hellenic style in later years.

[@martinbeckdorf4565]

Oh, and the mention of Xenophon makes me think a video of the Anabasis would be incredible.

[@innosanto]

Sparta was not young society.

[@MrLee-cy1pw]

​@@innosantothe further back in time you go, the younger our species and societies were.

[@finisterre2415]

The spartans were some crazy mother Ephor's.

[@miguel111093]

I was looking for this haha

[@justsomeguy3565]

Hssss hsssss

[@wesleysnyder349]

Are you proud of yourself? Because you should be this is punny as hell and I love it

[@randybobandy9243]

Bahahaha 😂🤣😂😆

[@whygodwhy9252]

Perfect joke

[@michaeljones1491]

Oh shit it's ya boi big red Roman rectangle coming in

[@dilly7551]

ROME HAS CONQUERED!

[@jasonmartin4775]

*Rektangle

[@MrDanayr16]

+Jason Martin Legion Wreaktile

[@bertkarlsson1605]

Long have we waited

[@tightlikeweed9735]

hear hear!

[@theturtle773]

And we aren't Jebaited

[@goranperssonfanaccount1956]

Bert Karlsson skara för alltid

[@stoopid6036]

oh for fucks sake more bots

[@danielvictor3262]

Not a time that I have doubted the oracle

[@mariojm1709]

Brilliant commentary. Xenophon would have took the route by sea, not land, to get to Sparta from Athens. Just a minor point.

[@TheGerogero]

How about the Ephors on the way to the oracles? I was wondering whether the animation was accurate.

[@euboean3079]

Nice video BUT you did not talk at all about the Perioikoi who were not slaves like the helots but were not citizens of Sparta. Instead they were the manufacturing and trading class of Laconia, who lived the most normal lives, and in later years comprised the majority of the Spartan army with the citizens being the elite.

[@totocaca7035]

If they are not spartans, then why mention them? ;)

[@euboean3079]

Neither were the Helots :P and most of the Perioikoi were Laconians unlike the Helots who mainly hailed from Messenia.

[@TheAtmosfear7]

The word "Spartan"itself is misleading. If you're referencing the ruling citizen warrior class that formed part of the Spartan army (the homoioi), then what you mean is Spartiates, not Spartans. Spartans would be anyone living in the city of Sparta. The warriors, true citizens that take part in the agoge training and the common meals are called Spartiates.

[@jasondoe2596]

TheAtmosfear7, that's a pretty silly distinction, because it only exists in the English language. I can assure you that in Greek "Spartiates" *means* Spartans. I suspect that if they wanted to refer to the entire non-slave population ("homoioi" aka _peers_ or not) they would use the term Lacedaemonians.

[@alaskaoalaska]

You forgot to mention the Battle of Leuctra of 371 and Epaminondas' freeing of the Helots, the creation of forts in the lands of the Helots, the creation of Megalopolis in Arcadia. All of those are central to Spartan decline, their decline isn't a mystery like you portray it. Macedon replaced Thebes as a threat, than the Aetolian League and the Achaean League were Roman proxies that kept Sparta busy. Sources include Plutarch (who used Xenophon as a source) and Polybius who was from that area and very pro-Achaean League. Agis IV and Cleomenes III attempted reform so you ended on an historically incorrect note. Otherwise your videos is clear and well-organized, if not a bit lacking in visual stimulation.

[@Bambabah]

Very underrated comment.

[@RD-eg1df]

Lacking in visual stimulation?? There's squares and rectangles in DIFFERENT COLORS all over the place!

[@danidejaneiro8378]

To be honest, the graphics is what I love most about it.

[@64standardtrickyness]

There's also before the Battle of Leuctra when their pure blood spartans dropped down toonly 1000 men. It shows the weakness of a purely hereditary warrior state's ability to recoup after huge losses unlike the Romans after Cannea It seems however, from events such as Platea that arming massive number of their Helot's was possible

[@reinatr4848]

Lacking visual stimulation? Welcome to the land of squares and rectangles!!

[@ShadowGricken]

Just yesterday I was thinking "you know its been awhile since he's uploaded" Historia Civilis once again proves he's fucking psychic.

[@monopolymoney2703]

Gricken same lol

[@PhotogNT]

I seem to remember being told at school and I nay be wrong, that Spartan mothers and wives would tell husbands and sons when going off to war to "return with their shield or on it".

[@KaladinVegapunk]

haha they could be so detached about their sons/husbands either kicking ass or dying because at least they had great compensation

[@illarionbykov7401]

Yep. Women sent their sons off to die in wars of conquest to enrich these mothers....the "gentle sex" LOL. Too many men are waking up to the modern version of this scam. The West under feminism, like Sparta under the Heiresses are ripe for the pickings by stronger foreign powers who don't bow and scrape before their spoiled rich women..

[@illarionbykov7401]

@Yul Hubbart the military and the suffragettes collaborated on the "white feather" campaign. The military because they wanted more cannon fodder for their imperial war, and the suffragettes because they thought men should earn their right to vote through military service, and argued women could earn the right to vote through equivalent "war work"--a promise suffragettes renegged on as soon as men extended voting rights to women. It's the usual story, feminists saying one thing ("equality") and doing the opposite (female privilege)

[@ioannisgordios12]

Mark Cullenane it is reality that with the shield or dead on it . That was the Spartan law as they did not leave dead behind .

[@wppb50]

@@ioannisgordios12 It was also Spartan law that, if you retreated from battle, you would have to live your life as a "trembler." Get half your beard shaved, cloak torn, and be out from the protection of the law, so any Spartan could assault you without penalty if they felt like it. (If you fought back, of course, that would make you a criminal as well as a trembler.) So the real options were "with your shield, or on it, or come back to a life of nothing but shame to yourself and your family."

[@the.pandamonium]

Historia Civilis upload makes my day better

[@cameronsipka3352]

sverebebe +

[@palatasikuntheyoutubecomme2046]

Mee toooooo! Hugy wuggy fwend wets aww be happy woo watching vee histowia civiwiss! Nah - That was just weird

[@BBD1]

Please man, don't stop making videos I just love how you explain history, geography, the human nature and emotions. It makes us travel to that place and look how people tough at that time Brilliant videos dude really great work!

[@brettwilson2589]

Spartan King: "What do you mean I'm being taken to trial?" Messenger: "The Ephors voted 3/2 against you" Spartan King: Those MOTHER EPHORS!"

[@pikamonketchumlol1237]

lmfao

[@pikamonketchumlol1237]

unlucky for them the future is a civilization of memes, cuss words, drunk dudes and cool Assassins Creed recreations of Greece

[@blackfootedferret]

I lost it every time he said effors

[@Tacticslion]

I have to say randomly coming across this today, we're playing a solo game situated in Sparta. The PCs have made the same joke more than once. (And the Ephors, despite their name, aren't even the actual villains or antagonists.)

[@curtisshaw1370]

Since I don't have a sense of humor: The Ancient Greek word was ἔφοροι. Ancient Greek also had a pitch accent instead of a stress accent. Phi was pronounced as an aspirated p, not as an fricative /f/. It had a trill r. So a close approximation of the correct pronunciation for English speakers would be "Eh? Poe Roy" while rolling the r. If you want to use the English plural, it would be "Eh? Pours."

[@brycevo]

This is a really good in depth look at Spartan culture and law

[@VampireSquirrel]

if a king got thrown out office by ephers was it called getting ephed?

[@saintmiller3584]

Well... That's F.or U.nlawful C.arnal K.nowledge now isn't it?

[@gon4455]

😁

[@ssimon64]

Ephed right in the A

[@vertik7]

I guess it's called impeachment.

[@david2869]

@@vertik7I think you mean "impephment"

[@2ndGenBen]

You need to do a video on A. Sulla’s dictatorship Or B. Dissecting the statement “Caesar marched on Rome”

[@811chelseafc]

Ben Sama well. That’s one down.

[@finnmunchhoff9233]

That roman square at the end was awesome though ;)

[@danmichaelabad1338]

War incoming

[@polandballhistorian8537]

Man Aristotle hated everyone... I still love him, though.

[@ramenbomberdeluxe4958]

Wyatt Earp And then he spewed a bunch of sexist nonsense about women, so no he didn’t have a reason for some of who he hated

[@ramenbomberdeluxe4958]

Aquila Romana I find both of you to be sad examples of...well, I suppose putting a name to it is hard. I find this double standard to be funny, not only are you two most likely men yourselves, but it’s funny how we can call out historic racism and tyrants with no issue, but OH NO, GOD FORBID WE BRING UP SEXISM! SJW REEEEEEEE!!! Do you two see how silly you sound?

[@ramenbomberdeluxe4958]

Aquila Romana It’s okay to call out the bad traits about otherwise good things as well. I think many of his teachings were great, but if you truly liked Aristotle, you wouldn’t be blind to his faults

[@ramenbomberdeluxe4958]

@@caiawlodarski5339 why of course, your right. Still, it hurts to thik that even som eof our most influential figures would stillf all victim to these societal flaws,

[@viracocha6093]

@Aquila Romana you’re right about the difference in morality bit. Gender equality in of itself is not Marxist, however.

[@macdermesser]

Seems ancient Sparta was kind of a national security state.

[@thedarkmaster4747]

YES! :D

[@shadowyfigure4975]

It was more than that, they tried to be fair to Spartans as well.

[@TebecyBrad]

Sounds familiar

[@benji2886]

This is extreme similar to our army

[@mk6315]

Service guarantees citizenship! Enlist today!

[@thehaoguy]

Omg, another half an hour video, this is pure pleasure!!!!

[@all7ofthem716]

oh shit boi best channel time

[@InternetStranger476]

its lit

[@alexandert6966]

hahaha

[@SECONDQUEST]

WeTube knock it off

[@John_Conner222]

So i'm assuming the Ephors messed around with the heiresses alot. I guess young men and rich cougars go hand in hand. So this is the origin of the term "Mother Ephors"?

[@30K_ACTUAL]

Romullus Best comment so far

[@thedarkmaster4747]

That didn't matter to much in ancient sparta. Think about it. Wemen out numbered men by alot, and every guy was a demi hercules.

[@playsauce]

Teens > cougars.

[@euleer.-.9385]

@Dragon Dimosthenis Indeed, 'cause it was legal lmao

[@porsche911sbs]

I thought he said the ephors were older, at least 45 years old

[@divaybishnoi2773]

A 23 minute long video from historia civillis? Where is my pizza?!!

[@Ptaku93]

I already ate mine :3

[@jon-umber]

Literally eating pizza as I watch this.

[@kaspervendler1726]

I also had to get some snacks

[@bigmoney3910]

Divay Pratap I had a burger..

[@augustinedaudu9203]

Divay Pratap I got ice cream

[@PoseidonXIII]

Love how detailed this is! I really appreciate you making this for us.

[@mattc9998]

Many of your videos mention "legislation", but what I really want to know is how on earth legislation was actually spread populations and enforced, especially in rural areas. For example. in one of your videos you explain how Julius Caesar reformed the calendar, as well as adding in a very large chunk of days to compensate and rectify it. How did all of the farmers and cities across Rome actually hear about this and implement it? And with stuff like tax collection, surely with the remoteness of people and the distance to the capital, it would have taken months to effectively collect all of the tax? You could go even further: You often see time-lapses of the big red blob that is Rome spread across huge swathes of landmasses, and this goes for any nation or empire that conquered and/or annexed places. I get that invading armies can set up in major cities and towns, but how would a small village of natives in the middle of say Gaul know that they were now under Roman rule, and what difference did it actually make to them? How is it that Roman culture and religion spread so quickly to these areas too? Too many questions XD Sorry! I do really love your videos though

[@SeedlessProductions]

Seems to me it would involve a lot of people riding horses and shouting.

[@weltarchiv4]

The quick Romanization of Western Europe happend through depopulation and mass enslavement followed by deportation to Italy of all the cities in Gaul and Hispania. The very rural areas were never Romanized. They only became Latin-speaking in the early middle ages when people from the cities moved into the countryside and the Germanic (but linguistically latinized) conquerors started to set up the feudal system.

[@samiamrg7]

That’s why there was plenty of room for corruption in tax collecting for most of human history, and why the bigger an empire was, the more corrupt it tended to be. Some empires got around this by having more decentralized power structures like the Mongol Empire or many of the iterations of the Persian Empire. While this can make an empire durable, it also tends to hurt cohesiveness and can lead to civil war or separatism.

[@iycephoenixx4249]

"Cities across Roman territory/the republic/the empire"

[@samiamrg7]

Matthew Cocks Additionally, this challenge in tax collection and law enforcement is why large empires like the Romans, Persians, and Chinese are notable. Most kingdoms throughout history were pretty small since it is hard to administer large areas and lots of people without everything falling apart as happened to, for example, Alexander the Great’s empire.

[@andypowell4702]

I just discovered your channel today and have been binge watching for a while but the immature kid in me can't stop hearing and laughing at quotes like "even if a king was stuck with a group of hostile ephors" and "two ephors can't do anything on their own" as if you're censoring yourself of the f word. I love some well researched and accurate history and the way you present it is fantastic in showing a visually simple way to understand the information you are giving. You've got a new subscriber in me, keep up the great work!

[@zakeg2620]

I love this type of documentary. Usually american history docs are over dramatic and simplified. This is detailed and informative. Keep it up!

[@Defaultname0000]

Awesome vid. Enjoying your Greek stuff. Would like to see you continue you're Ceaser videos however; get into the civil war.

[@Irmarinen]

Jetsom Yass, more ceasar stuff!

[@mojeo522]

In the Spartan diarchy one of the kings usually controled foreign laws and relations and the other usually controled the interior. This system worked so well that today, most countries use this system by separating goverment from State.

[@skipperwarp9]

“ wealthy Spartan wives used to dominate their husbands” god I wish that were me

[@Filippa1.1.]

Lady dimitrescue??

[@IssaGladiator]

Lmfaooooooo

[@johnnottellingyou2402]

And that's why it won't be

[@skipperwarp9]

@@johnnottellingyou2402 I mean youre right but still :(

[@ritam8767]

Yuck

[@deusvult6900]

22:07 "When the Romans started getting their hands dirty in grease"

[@erravi]

I wish he had said "getting their hands greasy" so badly lol

[@waynesudoski871]

I didnt get why u liked this at 1st haha. Just as i was about to close i realised how funnny that was! 😂 1 minute im reading hard complex things the next i cant wrap my mind around seasonal time change ☺🙄✌

[@AgglomeratiProduzioni]

"How Italians were born"

[@nikofloros]

Thank you for including the correct Greek pronunciation of Delphi! It made me so happy!

[@Pro_Butcher_Amateur_Human]

I studied the Spartan's history in college, and bored my friend's and family for 2 years by constantly telling them interesting (to me anyway, they're not big on history) things I'd just learned. I haven't done it for a while because I don't think about the Spartans as often anymore. This has made me think about all the things I loved about learning Sparta's history. My family are getting a history lecture over dinner tonight.

[@jacobhawkinsmusic]

wait so Sparta wasnt just entirely one big boot camp. They had brains too. My life is a lie

[@thedarkmaster4747]

And poets and musicians... Of war. 😵⚔😵

[@specj8849]

:,

[@jammehrmann1871]

@@thedarkmaster4747 and Χιλών a philosopher

[@Apple_Teck]

And water is wet.

[@LanMandragon1720]

Boot camp includes various academic courses you of course realize?

[@youngkim5909]

Damn it I thought you meant constitution as in health! I came here to get abs like Leonidas in 300!

[@halithegreat3240]

Did you stay for Ephors and Gerousia?

[@pettermct]

Now he as a big belly

[@lightbombs]

GYM

[@reinatr4848]

...

[@jedisentinel4879]

Lol

[@Captiiva]

It almost sounds like they chose to let themselves die out. They had to be more then aware of the state of their society and government, but still chose to carry on till the end. Sounds like the Spartan thing to do to me.

[@sonaruo]

nope they lost the land and the laws were not able to be applied anymore and 1 day after the defeat and the loss of the territory the spartan civilization ended the men stoped doing military excises but spent all day long getting drunk they did not try to reform the society to accommodate the new reality they just gave up

[@tfw2997]

I imagined that they'd rather die than change themselves into something they were clearly not

[@MrRoz121]

Messenger Charles would you like them to stand up and get angry again?

[@MrRoz121]

Messenger Charles I’m not disagreeing. But sadly I believe it’s far to late. The majority would gladly have themselves erased and replaced.

[@johnmontoya8160]

So despite the fact that many spartan women were rich as a result of the spartsn system and it failed, what that say about women?

[@noahhunter382]

Would you ever consider doing a video on the Parthian empire, or some other maybe less well covered or popular ancient civilization. You do a great job on all of your videos and would love to see you explain maybe other ancient empires.

[@GeneralKenobiSIYE]

"That hurts, man."- Non Spartan Greeks. "Dude.... uncool."- At least once in every "Oversimplified" video.

[@HistoryandOtherStuffwithBV]

If that wasn't enough, back during that time, there were 5 different languages in the Hellenic family: Attic, Doric, Ionic, Micaenean and Eolic. Sparta spoke Doric. However, Athens spread its influence, and Attic became more widespread. Eventually, Koine Greek was developed, being a descendant of Attic with a large degree of Ionic influence. By the time Koine evolved into modern-day Greek, Sparta was speaking the same as the rest of Greece. Tsakonic, the descendant of Doric, is now only spoken in the small town of Leonidio and a few surrounding villages. They are the last Spartans.

[@croicullagh7530]

That's an inaccurate way to describe it. Attic was just a form of Ionian, and Mycenaean was the an older form of Greek.

[@Rickpat16]

Interesting enough, towards the end there actually were two kings, Agis IV and after him Cleomenes III, who both tried a combination of land redistribution and reforms to citizen-ize a larger population to make Sparta great again. Unfortunately, the first one Agis IV was blocked and later killed by political rivals, including the King serving opposite him (Leonidas II - not the one from the Persian Wars). The second one, Cleomenes III, actually saw quite a bit of success, until the Achaean League and the Macedonians joined forces, bribed Ptolemy to cut funding to the Spartans, then together defeated the Spartans at the Battle of Sellasia.

[@MidnightCalyx]

Your videos are so educational keep it up it helps a lot

[@deblunn]

I have watched all the videos you have made.I love your voice and style.Please make more.Thanks heaps, dude!

[@ariochiv]

I'm wondering what source Cicero had for his information on Sparta. Whether he relied on Xenophon or another source, or had some personal experience. But surely by Cicero's time, Sparta was, at best, a shadow of its former self.

[@Pan_Z]

All the Hellenes were by the time the Roman Republic conquered them.

[@Mitaka.Kotsuka]

Yeah, great civilizations the spartans... so wonderful... with limited power and the old men in charge... they should be sooo powerful...wait. what do you mean we conquered the shit out of them???? -Cicero. Probably

[@Laocoon283]

He just made it up

[@ultra-papasmurf]

sparta actually became a tourist attraction in the late republican period that would last centuries as a cultural novelty for rich romans to venture to and watch

[@innosanto]

Cicero studied in Athens I think or with Greek teachers.

[@ethan9567]

Today is a great day now

[@TheRushnakdeltarawen]

If I remember well, it was the ever growing concentration of land, through inheritance, that caused the diminution of the number of spartiates, so yeah a basic redistribution of the lands would have drastically increased the size of the elite millitary cast. But due to the inherent conservatism of sparta's structures, and probably also corruption possible because of the wealth stockpiled by those who benefited from this concentration of land, the few attempts to increase the number of Homoioi failed

[@lolbug100]

This is correct. There was a king who attempted it but I believe Phillip came along, defeated him and prevented his land reforms (as the existing "elite" families wanted).

[@totocaca7035]

It takes a roman to have an ager publicus!

[@gazlink1]

Inheritance tax is vitally important to any society seeking long tern strength. There's few things of greater inequity than handing out wealth to those who do have not earned it.

[@sonaruo]

THE LAND BELONGED TO THE STATE you were given the land but the ownership was still in the state you could not sell the land or divide it usual the oldest son was going to inherite the land that belonged to his father and leave his brothers wish no land to go around. if the owner of the land died and had no sons to pass the land the land was back to the state which will give i as a present to the most good spartans soldiers that had no land at the time where the fuck you people read this nocesne??

[@nicholasayres3265]

Even now, to have a rich and powerful state, there must be a lot of redistribution of wealth around the population, and all the asset stripping of the UK by that bastard Thatcher and others later, like Blair, is leading to economic and hence political problems in the UK.

[@promnightdumpsterbaby9553]

This and epic history are the 2 best historical channels on you tube. Great work.

[@yahyakodesh9333]

The helot/Spartan situation always fascinated me, as I'm only 2:56 into the video and already commenting. :) Mainly because of the brutality shown by the Spartans on these people, who were considered if i'm not mistaken, basically a nation under siege but they were not taken as slaves nor simply massacred (on the whole, that is); obviously, this couldn't have been because of the good nature of the Spartans. My crackpot theory is that they were neolithic farmers from Anatolia, long settled, who were seen as effete by the newly arrived conquering Indo-European speakers, themselves likely originally warlike raiders, because of the sedentary farmer lifestyle combined with the fertility of Laconian land. This transformed perhaps over time into the Spartan "taboo" on farming and their unique and limited notion of property rights.

[@LasPhoenix777]

How am I just now finding this channel?? Great content.

[@slyrooster1241]

My dude ive been here for at least a year, all the content is amazing welcome to the club 🤘

[@mickvonbornemann3824]

Our compare seems to forget about the fact that Thebes defeated Sparta & freed the Helots, that may also had something to do with their decline too.

[@alexanderfroebelzehl3825]

This channel is the best thing I have found on KZbin so far. Thank you!

[@theZXDgames]

For some reason, the big Roman square at 23:09 scared the hell outta me.

[@simslaurs]

I giggled at the big Roman square coming in at the end. Great mediating @Historia Civilis

[@iycephoenixx4249]

I smiled greatly inside 😋

[@Sawrattan]

Somehow your little coloured squares made it all so much clearer.

[@gmat5046]

I love how intentionally cute he made the pig, then panned away as he said it was sacraficed edit. Next watch, lmao at the HUGE Roman infantry at the end

[@Dantick09]

So that is what happens to the Spartans, I am assuming spartan widows remarried as soon as possible and pretty often

[@bospqr]

The main duty of the spartan woman....according to the spartans was to give birth to more spartans...so they certainly remarried.

[@wenigmehl]

What made Sparta so strong? Lots of SPARring of course! I'll see myself out.

[@TheRageng]

Inheritance laws! Yay!

[@variedgamer9498]

Elonkelon don't you just love nepotism?

[@Ayy_Doll_Fiddler]

Spartan inheritance laws = feminist's fantasy?

[@htoodoh5770]

Vosloff Depend on how law is enacted, and what the law is?

[@feelthepony]

fucking dinasty ck II BS....

[@tylerorr3851]

yeah but it wasn't equality, Woman held the majority of economic power while men had the majority of constitutional power. Either side could influence the other, but this is by no means equality.

[@apes352]

Love the unintentional optical illusion at 17:24 with black dots keep dissepering between the edges of the squares!

[@mikushenko75]

They didn't put much ephor t into making laws lol

[@andrewpestotnik5495]

*takes swig of alcohol*

[@kanrup5199]

o gods

[@petershearman5098]

your comment made me ephor ic

[@ADRIANNORMANNINA]

By far the best history channel on KZbin

[@totocaca7035]

I like the closing tune

[@dafuqmr13]

ever watch buzzfeed, their quality is so great its so accurate too

[@jasonmartin4775]

*undignified snort*

[@luisparra1097]

For you to know which was the cause of the declination of Esparta, you should read Machiavelli's "Speeches about the first decade of Titium Livium", there in the chapter IV you can find the reasons the florentine brings to explain the decadence of Esparta. It's not a mistery, it does have an explanation. Cheers.

[@christopherthrawn7541]

You have have done a excellent job on history here. I'm impressed with your details and breakdown of facts. I lived in Crete and Greece as a kid. Bravo work here.

[@MATTHEW12944]

Finally. Original information about Sparta. The 300 has been thrashed. Well done!

[@Turgon92]

spartan warriors were still elite. but for a very,very short amount of time

[@bakters]

+Turgon92 - Spartans were the best infantry out there for a very long time. 3 to 5 centuries, depending how you count. As far as I know, they were considered to be elite infantry for as long as they existed. Just the numbers dwindled, but the quality supposedly remained.

[@vlandianbutter9960]

Athens used to have an elite homosexual legion called the Sacred Band, some people said it's the best greek unit in their time.

[@nickstrapvideos5503]

Southern White-Faced Owl Thebans not Athenians.

[@nickstrapvideos5503]

BlackDeathViral03 It's because of strategy, not because they were better soldiers. Example: Battle of Charrae, roman's with 30.000 legionnaires and in total 50.000 lost against 10.000 parthians. It's all about strategy bud.

[@AragornRespecter]

MANY MANY YEARS AGO WHEN PERSIA CAME ASHORE

[@Mankindatwar]

AND THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARIVED

[@nickstrapvideos5503]

Pyrus JOIN BY THEIR BROTHERS.

[@flynn659]

A few, against the fatefull SWEDISH PAGANS! MARCHING ASHORE!

[@theyellowzombierules527]

Panzers on Russian soil

[@dwarfie24]

Let the rap... ugh I mean battle commence.

[@myownmusic8182]

Sparta was actually quite progressive. Well, if you were a Spartan.

[@meepk633]

I think we are missing something from the picture. With wealth disparity comes rigid hierarchy. Maybe a hierarchy you wouldn't get to interrogate if you just hung out with the king all day.

[@joedatius]

aside from the horrid atrocities

[@justinkassel4000]

Haha, I’m glad you added that last sentence. And yes they were. Women where considered almost equals as they produced strong spartan men. Similar to NAZI Germany, which promoted being a mother as the most important job in the Reich. The stronger the society in terms of perceived ineptitude to weakness, the higher a woman ranked in terms of equality. Sadly, nazi Germany and the Spartans has several parallels. The systematic murder of individuals deemed weak, the promotion strong woman breeding strong men, and the ides that their citizens were superior to others in every way, and because of this, had the right to take and do what they wanted to them.

[@Gilmaris]

Sparta was stagnant, and so rather the opposite of progressive. They did not progress, but stayed rooted to the spot.

[@thedarkmaster4747]

It was, wemen could get an education, own land and had quite alot of freedom. Men had to eat healthy annnnnd: OnlyTheStrongestWereEvenAllowedToSurvive. But yeah, lots of freedom & not much repression if you survived your childhood. Just don't be born a helot, as you could be murdered for the shear sake of it, because spartans were nuts! Liberated, but nuts. XD

[@BringBacktheGreeks]

Very complete presentation. I only like to add as a native Greek and student of Classics, that in actual Greek pronunciation, even the ancient one, the words starting with an X (Ξ in Greek) is NOT pronounced as Z, but as KS. So Xenophon (Ξενοφῶν) is pronounced as KSenofon.

[@zhshsG7]

In modern Greek "Gerousia" translates to "Senate'. I'm not a linguist, but I can see a connection between 'Senate' and 'Senior', so I guess Senate also means council of elders in Latin.

[@camiloordonez4906]

lazaros zissis Yes they come from the same root ''senes'' meaning old man.

[@justinw867]

Oooh yeah the root for senile, senility. Nice!

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

Greek:GERON (Old Man/Elder)...GEROUSIA (Council of Elders) ; Latin:SENEX (Old Man/Elder)...SENATUS (Council of Elders/ Senate). You are correct, there is an etymological connection.

[@andrefilipe9042]

thanks, that was very helpfull

[@janeza382]

Sana means shadow on Macedonian(south-slavic) and Geron in modern mother languae is Heroj means Hero. Then rest is Roman Latin or greko-roman...

[@lancemannly]

"And i fell to wondering how this could happen" Well it turns out when you have enough slaves to do all the farming and physical labor it frees up time to do a lot of other stuff like having a trained military

[@strongangel]

The decline of Sparta is obvious and you covered it at the beginning. The inheritance law is what ultimately destroyed them. People who get land a and power by ensuring other people die to get them it, surely become murderess.

[@RSMVreviewer]

@john smith Make no mistake women having power was a symptom of spartan militaristic tradition, not the cause.

[@theflyingfool]

Apart from the very interesting content that I thoroughly enjoyed, I really liked the optical illusions!

[@Bram06]

Roman Constitution next? (Even though it was unwritten)

[@Ptaku93]

all the videos about Roman political institutions are about Roman constitution

[@DanishCamp]

Mos Maiorum?

[@2ndGenBen]

Some of it was written it was called The Twelve Tables

[@alexandert6966]

That square dots illusion trick is awesome. I love that it's in your videos.

[@dflatt1783]

The 'ephors' I wonder if the helots called them the 'f-ers' EDIT: Sounds like the king might have referred to them as 'f-ers' as well.

[@thefisherking78]

Man, this was such an interesting rundown! I love your work!

[@bryanst.martin7134]

Wait! Did you say Heiresstotle? I'm crying!

[@kulrigalestout]

Just wanted to say that in between each square when they're in formation, it looks like there's a little black dot. But when I look at the little black dot, it goes away; and where previously there was empty space, now resides a little black dot. I'ma go back to drinking now. Thanks for reading.

[@DubyaDeeEight]

You’re not going crazy, it’s actually a pretty well known optical illusion

[@aborawk4154]

That "catastrophic earthquake" was truly catastrophic. Apparently the majority of Sparta was destroyed with tens of thousands dying. Makes sense to me, not sure why you dismissed it so fast.

[@thedarkmaster4747]

Exactly.

[@zachjordan7608]

because even a devastating earthquake's effects would fade given time. the fact the decline kept going for centuries indicates an institutional cause. even if tens of thousands of citizens did die, like he mentioned, increasing immigration, granting citizenship to some helots, reforming marrige laws, etc could have rebounded that population over years and decades

[@peawackab6198]

Thanks, I found that nice, well presented, short and intuitive.

[@Keepingitrespectfulmostly.]

I think this explains what I always thought was odd in the film Troy with Brad Pitt.. Sean Bean played a Spartan King and would lead his army, rather than a general do it.. Now it kind of makes sense. Response to main article only.

[@Laocoon283]

The story of troy takes place like a thousand years before the time of the events in this video. I might be wrong but I don't think they were consider Spartans I just think they were called achaeans.

[@tummywubs5071]

Holy crap good video!

[@WhatifAutist]

After over a year, this video finally reached 1 million views. About time.

[@jailorjailor1212]

And it happens to be about the alt-right's second favourite civilization

[@rubenherrera3852]

I liked the envelope being push on your graphic!!!! Enjoyed your effort!