Historian Gordon Wood speaks with WSWS about American Revolution and the NYT 1619 Project

In this video, Gordon Wood, a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian on United States history, speaks with WSWS reporter Tom Mackaman about the New York Times' 1619 Project, the history of slavery, and the legacy of the American Revolution. Read the full interview on the WSWS: www.wsws.org/e...

[@WhatsThatItsPat]

Please publish the entire interview in video format.

[@jan140.6]

thank you WSWS for posting this interview with Gordon Wood. I've always found him to be an enlightening figure.

[@frannyleyden7988]

We are living in 1984. Slavery still exists in Africa.

[@MrAliBey]

Slavery still exists in many places including the United States per the 13th Amendment.

[@MrAliBey]

@@nicholaslorenzo2869 Some chattel slaves got paid or were able to be hired out and some were able to buy their freedom yet, they were nonetheless enslaved. The text of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution is clear, it can't be ignored or construed to mean anything other than what it states. Perhaps you don't know that two of the synonyms for the word Enslave are the words Imprison and Incarcerate? www.thesaurus.com/browse/enslave?s=t

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

unless you eat fair trade chocolate then 1 million slave labor children in West Africa are growing your cheap chocolate so that Cargill and Nestle can profit.

[@MrOpenConversations]

@@nicholaslorenzo2869 I'd also point out that to earn a wage doesn't necessarily mean you are not a slave. Just look at indentured servitude in the 1800s as an example. What I mean by this is in regards to rights allotted to the "Worker" many states take advantage of the 13th amendment by contracting out prison work to companies to raise funds. Who is to say these prisoners are given rights that pertain to safety? say working in a chemically effected area? whose to look out for their health?

[@mediatool9596]

There are more slaves right now today than at any time during the height of the slave trade in America.

[@stevepowsinger733]

Read Brown’s new book, a penetrating study of colonial history and how great progress was made by the Am Revolution in human rights, even if the seeds of civil war were planted by certain shortcomings. Important to understand that the average person did not have extensive rights. Indentured servants were everywhere. Granting freedom and Liberty to the common man (and woman) was a slow and major undertaking.

[@blachlee1962]

Even a socialist group can see through this woke project, giving it polite treatment, of course. American blacks' biggest problem since the 1960s (largely triggered by welfare) has been broken families and gang thugs constantly shooting each other. BLM and this project are just trying to wish all that away and blame external factors.

[@spartanlb1986]

You got that from Vickahs!

[@EndoftheTownProductions]

Page 98

[@brandondaniels9471]

@@EndoftheTownProductionsessex county?

[@rockydelgado4166]

Good will blunting brought me here

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

"Proslavery Americans began to accelerate their presence in Brazil in the 1830s, creating alliances there sometimes friendly, often contentious with Portuguese, Spanish, British, and other foreign slave traders to buy, sell, and transport African slaves, particularly from the eastern shores of that beleaguered continent. ...After the Civil War, many Confederates, with slaves in tow, sought refuge as well as the survival of their peculiar institution in Brazil. Based on extensive research from archives on five continents, Gerald Horne breaks startling new ground in the history of slavery, uncovering its global dimensions and the degrees to which its defenders went to maintain it."

[@shaolin89]

There is nothing unique about slavery in America. It indeed happened for thousands of years for all skin colors.

[@janosmarothy5409]

which is a rather ahistorical framing of the matter, and there is plenty that is historically particular about the slavery as practiced by European colonial powers. the mechanisms and motivations as a factor in capitalist primitive accumulation are not the same as in prior social formations. neither 1619 nor WSWS get the relationship between slavery and capitalism right.

[@stevieray8719]

I thought anti-slavery was initiated in Britain long before North America ...

[@graterdeddly9527]

It depends on what "anti-slavery" means -- the abolitionists grew up in North America in protestant churches, but the UK started taking steps to eradicate slavery at the governmental level, like with William Wilberforce, and then the reform bill of 1832. Then the suppression of the slave trade and the abolition of slavery in the British colonies. What he's getting at, I think, is that it is nonsensical stupidity to think that the American Revolution was really about preserving slavery -- and that's what the 1619 project has as a central tenet of its overall thesis of slavery being central to the American mind and experience. Utter nonsense, and Gordon Wood to his credit is simply calling historical bilge for what it is.

[@heajowsey9534]

The American Revolution, which did not abolish slavery, nonetheless raised the issue and inspired the French Revolution. Growing economic & social divergences in the 70+ years after 1776 led to the bloody Civil War, in which slavery was abolished for all time. Subsequent economic developments raised the class struggle, which dominated the 20th Century. See Mehring Books on the 1619 Project, with lectures on this history

[@staatsfeindlich9939]

So he would take issue with Gerald Horne's thesis of The Counterrevolution of 1776.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

Except that other scholars have corroborated the work of Gerald Horne.

[@Beezard1977]

Voidisyinyang Voidisyinyang except the ones that haven’t.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

@kiloscott So you're saying 500 year of Western genocidal mass mind control colonialism caused Professor Horne to not use one word correctly? It's better than saying "moved" or "relocated." - I'm sure Horne realizes fully well that the native population experienced mass genocide and child rape of the males by the "moral leaders" of the West, etc.

[@shadoeboi212]

@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 the term your looking for is Genocide

[@saramynar8935]

@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 Professor Horne is a historical negationist; he flat out makes things up and does not view things in historical context. He's bias and trying to write for a specific political point. Put bluntly; he's wrong and has been discredited.

[@Ma1q444]

Fails to mention how America started Chattel slavery

[@blkhistorydecoded]

Like he said slavery had no criticism for the longest time but yet all of a sudden it's bad? No system is perfect but when Black people got out of slavery that's when we started to be attacked and marginalized because we were not PROPERTY anymore. There's scores of evidence of this. They are trying to say that Slave owners abused and damaged their property which makes no sense. I understand some did but most did not. That's a bad business model.

[@PiceaSitchensis]

Lol what? slavery in and of itself is abuse.

[@blkhistorydecoded]

@@PiceaSitchensis We were also told that Black people or Africans have no significant history to speak of. Do you believe that as well?

[@manleynelson9419]

I just listened to your lecture at George Washington on the revolutionary war leading up to the civil war and your characterization of Donald Trump versus Andrew Jackson is such a elementary and ridiculous parallel I have to say. Secondly I just want to let you know how poorly your comments about Trump and what's going on in America has aged. I hope that you've woken up a bit and are not going to vote for obiden. Vladimir Lenin said the only thing you have to do to defeat democracy is print money what do you think's happening right now dude. Professor emeritus Pulitzer prize winning author who's obviously intelligent understands history but has no concept about what's going on today

[@deborahvalentine2893]

Very interesting to hear truth for a change. "The End of Racism" by D'Souza is a good presentation upon the subject of racism and the history of both slavery and, more accurately, Racialism. Another good book that outlines many censored facts about Western slavery is "The Great Deceit; Social Pseudo-Science " by Archibald Roosevelt and Zygmund Dobbs which outlines the history of the so-called Social "Sciences", how they were invented, evolved, for what reason, who and why by outlining factually correct history as opposed to the current "politically correct" political narratives sold as truth... exactly as Lenin designed...

[@Doug1943]

Thank you Deborah for these very useful references. It's not enough to say "Not so!". We have to back up our ideas with evidence.

[@stevepowsinger733]

I’m not sure D’Souza is considered a bona fide historian but there is no doubt he is a smart man and persuasive writer. Deborah goes beyond the discussion here, which is the meaning of the American Revolution. Just getting the facts straight about that period is an accomplishment, something the “1629 Project” gets so horribly wrong.

[@commentsandlikes9509]

no, the first real anti-slavery movement took roots in Britain, followed by the United States

[@MrAliBey]

At 1:46 he mentions that there was slavery in Africa however, it's fallacious to imply that slavery in Africa was accepted by and acceptable to all Africans. Shaykh Muhammad Shareef of the Sankore Institute explains how many of the Africans dating back to the 1500's fought against slavery and were abolitionists who inspired western abolitionism. This was REAL abolitionism long before the abolitionism in North America that Wood is talking about. And THESE historical facts are always missed by "white" historians. vimeo.com/66280701 2:24, Wood says "Slavery is confined to the south after the Revolution". However, when you look at the census data, New England is the only region where slavery ends rather quickly. In other areas of the north such as New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland/DC and West Virginia as well as some states in the west, slavery continues right up to the Civil War. The census data can be found in "A Century of Population Growth: From the First Census of the United States to the Twelfth 1790-1900" page 133. books.google.com/books?id=VxYiAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA133#v=onepage&q&f=false

[@Kelnx]

As far as "Africans" being abolitionists, I assume you mean Black Africans. What specific people are you referring to? Slavery has long been practiced in various parts of Africa, and I am sure some cultures were against it, but some were all for it. The majority of the slave trade with America were slaves taken by and sold from Africans. The fellow in the video you linked mentions the Songhai Empire as an example of "safety" against slavery, which I find very strange as the Songhai were known for slavery. They traded slaves on the routes from Timbuktu and they also used slaves in their armies. The Songhai was also an Islamic nation that implemented Sharia law, which instead of condemning slavery, has specific laws about the practice. Slavery has been practiced throughout the Muslim world until quite recently when western nations pressured them to end it. The Songhai were no different than other Muslim nations when it came to slavery. As far as slavery ending in the North in the US, "West Virginia" was not a state until the Civil War. It was a part of Virginia, which is in the South. It broke away from Virginia when Virginia seceded. Delaware and Maryland (as well as DC) are all geographically part of the South, and as such had slavery, but Delaware and Maryland did not secede with the rest of the South and accepted abolition. New Jersey abolished slavery in 1804, the last of the Northern States to do so, so I don't know where you are getting your information on that. Western states, formed from new territories, were made Free or Slave based on geography. This was done to ease tensions between the North and the South. The first recorded abolition of slavery was a partial abolition by the Qin dynasty of ancient China in the 200s BC, followed by a complete abolition of slavery by the Xin in 10 AD. These were political moves against the wealthy elite at the time. The first black nation to abolish slavery outright was Haiti in 1804, following their revolution against the French. The last nation on Earth to make slavery illegal was the African nation of Chad, in 2017. These are the actual facts. What Dr. Wood says is correct. Prior to the question of slavery in the US, there was no real questioning of it, since it had been practiced globally by nearly every culture on the planet for thousands of years. The concept that individual human beings had equal rights was pretty new. It was posited by several European philosophers prior to the Revolution, but the United States was the first nation to establish itself on that principle. And it is that principle that ultimately would lead to the abolishment of slavery as well as universal rights regardless of race or sex.

[@MrAliBey]

@@Kelnx I posted a very detailed response to you but somehow it got deleted. I'll reply again later today

[@Kelnx]

@@MrAliBey Quite strange, I responded too but it's gone. Some craziness is afoot!

[@MrAliBey]

@@Kelnx I wanted to touch on each point you made so it's a bit of a read. I'll post it in parts but here's part 1: You’re asking the wrong questions. What you’re asking and the suggestions you’re making is an attempt to change the context of what I stated and what the ‘fellow’ stated in the video that I linked. Based on the assertions of Gordon Wood from 1:38 - 2:10 of this KZbin clip, I specifically stated that “it's fallacious to imply that slavery in Africa was accepted by and acceptable to all Africans” which from my perspective Wood was doing by stating it existed without substantial criticism. What Shaykh Muhammad Shareef does in MY video link is speak historical facts to the contrary and names specific people that you probably weren’t aware of but can now investigate. Without the attestation of the people of those regions in those times who had to live under enslavement or the threat of it, how does anyone think they can truthfully argue there was no substantial criticism of slavery? That’s the fallacy of argument from ignorance. You stated that “The majority of the slave trade with America were slaves taken by and sold from Africans” however, you can’t use the term ‘African’ broadly and generalize like that as if to say the individual African victims of the Atlantic Slave trade were thusly victims of their own making. At that time, there was no concept of being African. Identity and loyalty was based on kinship or membership of a specific kingdom or society, rather than to the African continent. The more accurate thing to say would be that certain African Rulers or wealthy and powerful Merchants were involved in slave trading yet none of that absolves Europeans of inflicting their wickedness on African human beings once in their possession.

[@MrAliBey]

@@Kelnx Part 2: As far as the Songhay empire providing security across West Africa, there’s context to that. This was a clip of a larger video interview and at that point where he’s talking about slavery, he’s more than likely talking about slavery as we’ve come to know it in the west and that’s based on the colonization, racial oppression and terrorism of Africans and native Americans by Europeans which came along with slavery. This BBC article had this to say… “In the 14th century, the West African empire of Mali was larger than Western Europe and reputed to be one of the richest and most powerful states in the world.” www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/africa_article_01.shtml To add more context to what Shaykh Muhammad Shareef stated regarding providing security across West Africa, South Africa’s history organization had this to say… “The Portuguese and Dutch governments were unable to colonise West African kingdoms because they were too strong and well organised.” www.sahistory.org.za/article/songhai-african-empire-15-16th-century So, in the sense of European colonization and brutalization on the African Continent, I can understand why he’d say the empire provided security because Europeans were kept at a distance and didn’t control or subjugate Africa then. Further, Europeans use of the word “Slave” invokes the image of ‘Negro’ subjugation and racial oppression/terrorism in America and that’s not at all what was happening in the Songhay empire. The servants of the Rulers that were in the military were advisers to them and held in a regard that commoners weren’t. Other servants were able to live a life in the society that was in no way possible for “Negroes” in America. I also think it’s important to understand that the word “slave” originally comes from the word Slav of the Slavic people because like Gordon Wood alluded to, Slavery existed all over the world including Europe for a very long time. www.etymonline.com/word/slave#etymonline_v_23653 The Greeks & Romans regarded the Germanic people as Barbarians and the Romans enslaved the Germanic people and others from all over Europe and the Mediterranean. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome Another thing to note is that while Christians attempt to divert attention away from the European role in the Slave Trade and American Chattel slavery onto African involvement and the Saharan trade, ironically Muslims from Africa simultaneously enslaved at least a million Christians (i.e. “white” Europeans) in North Africa. history.osu.edu/publications/christian-slaves-muslim-masters-white-slavery-mediterranean-barbary-coast-and-italy

[@noellamehal3784]

So you say the 1619 is wrong but what are you doing for the blacks in America!! Talking and talking!, well enough talking

[@calumfinlayson7382]

the wsws represents the icfi in its online media form, a group that advocates rank and file workers committees and eventual socialist revolution, they are engaged with many issues in American society today, including striking workers in ford factories, amazon factories, action in flint and in bringing a clear socialist analysis to the people as opposed to nationalism or neo liberal identity politics both used to divide the working class, throughout the world they are engaged in the fight for jullian assanges freedom, a fight to end the civil war in sri lanka, a fight to stop a third world war, a fight in every country they are found in to bring socialism to the people, one of the few forces left in this world that represent a united international movent of the working class, so i reckon their doing more than talking, so i agree enough talking join the socialist equality party and do something.

[@waterdrop_12]

This is so much BS.

[@shadoeboi212]

@Boomer Destroyer At this revisionist history to support the Aristocratic revolution that is the American revolution and to shift blame for slavery in America? ya I'm mad

[@shadoeboi212]

@Bradley Taft you mean the guy who pretty much nobody in academia agrees with? From the person who uses emojis? go back to your geenday and yoga

[@noiamnotjohn3351]

@@shadoeboi212 It was not an aristocratic revolution, it was a liberal one as democratic as any. Also, Lenin agreed with Wood, read his Letter ot the American Workingmen.

[@shadoeboi212]

@@noiamnotjohn3351 ok couple things FIRST 2 year old post its generally considered rude to respond to a post older then a week or two. Second the American revolution was definitionally a aristocratic as it was instigated at and to the primary benefit of the wealthy land owners of the 13 colonies. it was "liberal" in an enlightenment kind of way in that it wasn't authoritarian(monarchist, ect) the early American republic only allowed white land owners to vote until about 1860. Third are you talking about Letter To American Workers from 1918? in reference to what all the other posts are deleted