HORUS' PLAN TO SAVE KONRAD CURZE! THE FINAL ACT OF LUPERCAL?

[@tigeriussvarne177]

I think Angron would have been the one to balance Konrad (and other Primarchs), but the Nails ruined that plan.

[@marthlink5015]

Yea if anyone it was probably Angron- or just for Curze to never land on Nostrum or w/e it was called cause it broke him from the start.

[@Niteshiftmonkey]

Honestly I really wish we got an Alternate Non-Nailed version of Angron, because I find that he most likely would been a much more Cerebral Primarch than the World Eater Primarch we got.

[@marthlink5015]

@@Niteshiftmonkey Yea it would make a very interesting and almost funny new legion. Instead of World Eaters that are leading from the front so much so that they are messing up battle tactics. You'd have these empaths negating fear and negative emotions of legions like the Blood angels , dark angels, iron warriors etc. Basically... alot of those guys just needed a hug XD

[@Bluemilk92]

I initially read that as Aragorn, and thought "A bit random, but I guess I could see that."

[@Damien_N]

Angron without the nails stands a chance of being a cross between Sanguinius, Vulkan and Jaghatai Khan; A warrior poet and world builder who broke the chains of slavery, reconnecting the savagery of his legionnaires with the humanity they are sworn to defend.

[@pierceprzybyla1275]

I think the Lion would have been a good influence, both growing up alone in the wild as a bonding experience and teaching of the noble ways of a knight. Plus even the Lion says that he felt the closest kinship to Curze

[@Uzzgub]

I would say 1st Sanguinis 2nd Russ 3rd Johnson is a very good choice

[@simbriant]

'...the Lion says that he felt the closest kinship to Curze." That's not really a comforting thought lol

[@Pallyrulez]

Very interesting, where is it attested that the Lion felt that way towards Curze?

[@scatterthewinds3126]

man i can't wait until the lion wakes up.

[@pierceprzybyla1275]

@@Pallyrulez Angels of Caliban or Unremembered Empire if I remember correctly

[@viewernewest]

"The master of the fists recovers my Lord. A lesser being than a Primarch would be dead thrice over from the wounds you dealt him." An excerpt from Night Lords captain Shang after he mauled Dorn. He messed him up good, of course , Konrad was having a massive vision and seizure that had thrown him into complete madness.

[@TherealSBlair]

"Very new territory for Horus" Perhaps not. In his confrontation with Malcador regarding the II and XI, it was plain the fates of his two lost brothers didn't sit well with him at all. So much so he nearly pushed Malcador too far. Maybe this time he felt there was at least something he could do to help and not have another empty plinth.

[@dalaminaubis7822]

I felt the same way. Whatever happened to the others, I'm sure he went through it all in his head a thousand times over on how he could have prevented it. He wants to intervene before he loses another brother, and who aside from the Emperor can change a Primarch other than another Primarch.

[@SS_Psyops]

Yeah, I don’t think it’s new territory for Horus at all, it’s just that there were some really stupid, egotistical primarch’s. The arrogance of Horus and Vulkan here is astounding, as if there were something intrinsic to them which is any better. We aren’t talking about random people, the emperor designed these beings entirely to be what he wanted. Seeing them try to reign over each other, especially the one who sees the future better than anyone else - including it would seem, the emperor - is totally ridiculous. Curze knew what would happen before the emperor even “had a plan” if you are to believe what some would claim. So, you’re stuck with either believing Curze to be more clairvoyant than his father or that Curze was doing exactly what was intended. Either way having these “brothers” act in such a manner is laughable, as if the emperor wanted Curze away from his legion and the crusade. He was trying to prosecute this conquest quickly while lying to his “sons” to subvert attempted reprisals by the Chaos Gods, saying when it’s over he will take the sons who could be saved with him to heal and Horus/Vulkan thinks they are going to separate their equal (better IMO) from what he was created to do?! When he was the most efficient and benevolent of them all? I just can’t get over how ridiculous it is. They want to teach him how to be dumber, slower, less effective, and to squirm at what it is he was made to do, it’s pathetic. Curze was the most faithful son of all because he did exactly what he was suppose to even though it required him seemingly leaving the Emperors side and following this path alone. That is why the Emperor placed him in permanent darkness, without a family and made him see even more, instead of giving him a power like Corax, that way he could never hide from any of it but rather face it all down with crystal clarity. Ave Dominus Nox!

[@KabinMiniatures]

Curze was actually in this "rehabilitation program" with Vulkan for up to 20 years. The destruction of Nostramo was in 984.M30. During the Council of Nikaea and the Triumph at Ullanor, both Vulkan and Curze were absent. Sevatar and Fel Zharost even discuss his absense in "Child of Night". When Vulkan contacts Horus later on, his brother has been named Warmaster and his Legion renamed the Sons of Horus, which should put this around 004.M31. So you are quite right that this went on for a while, even though he never got to the point of being taken under the wing by other Primarchs.

[@FenixD-ng9bo]

So a couple things. First off, awesome video as always! Secondly, i think Horus had a good idea at heart and honestly believed he could salvage Konrad. Being with Vulkan would hopefully show him the good in humanity and how the Salamanders fought for that, being with Rogal helps mend the relationship, then i would hope him to spend time with Sanguinius and The Khan. Sanguinius to be with another with foresight and show him there is a choice. And The Khan to show him that hes not the only one with a legion that no one really likes or wants around. The White Scars are shown as barbarians and are constantly shat on, just like Konrads legion. Lastly, in Konrads primarch book when hes talking to Emps, big E states that he wishes they got to meet one last time. That he would show him the light and that he always had a choice, that the only reason he went mad is because he believed in immutable fate. So i dont think Emps ever got to see Konrad and show him the way. Once again if he was just a better dad none of this would have happened.

[@Uzzgub]

Well if the mother had not scattered her sons to the warp, maybe he could have had the time to be a better dad, and Angron would not have had the Nails put in his skull. So really it's the hormonal mothers fault.....

[@domc9801]

@@Uzzgub Well, all the perpetuals feared big E, the only one that really stayed was Malcodor, without chaos they really just saw him as a mad man, even his first Warmaster left him too.

[@Uzzgub]

@@domc9801 True but as we have seen that Chaos is a HUGE problem. And as far as I am aware only Malcador could see the future, so the plan that they had all worked towards would (probably) have worked, but if not for her, it would have happened more or less right because they would all have had time with the big E

[@northernnaysayer]

@@Uzzgub Early Big E was never the fatherly type, he viewed the Primarchs as weapons at the point of creation, that the whole reason she scattered them, in hopes they would find thier humanity without the clinical view Big E had with his plan. Its was only much later, around the time he found Corax did he realise he needed to baby his genetic experiments, even though they were all centuries old and should have really sorted thier own lives out by then. He was never the fatherly type with either the sensei(his natural born children) or the Sigilites. I think it's important to note that the reason he was so emotionally disconnected was likely due to the fact that Big E was just an gestalt consciousness formed from the minds of reincarnated shamans and it took him millennia to understand his own powers.... He was essentially someone with multiple personality disorder and god knows how many mental illnesses/impairments, no wonder his empathy was off.

[@zthoop64]

I think konrad could have been saved, but I dont think having him interact with dorn would have helped either, thats just wishful thinking. dorn is a cement block who could honestly only be moved by his father, not even sanguinius could convince him to change his mind, so even before konrad attacked him he probably couldnt have been convinced konrad could be saved. sanguinius on the other hand, might have been able to help him, even in the confrontation in the imperium secondus, konrad admits that while envious of the hawk boy, he never truely hated him.

[@dawall3732]

I think arch had it wright with the alternate version of Konrad the only way he could be saved is to have his life altered from the moment he landed on the planet. Then and only then with the self control that comes with the concept of forgiveness he might have been able to control his visions or at least deny them when they made no sense and control himself.

[@Archon3960]

I have another idea: have events go contrary to Curze's visions. It would have forced him to discuss the matter with Sanguinius honestly, and he may have realized that fate is not immutable. This, more than his childhood on Nostramo, is what led Curze down this dark path. If he accepted that fate was not shaped in stone, he could have gotten over his bs. It's a shame that Big E. never took the time to do this, eh? xD

[@surtrpicks]

I feel like Sanguinius is the most likely for being able to help him. Almost sharing in their thinking and actions facing it, each being a very different feel as they go through it. We sort of had that but more of a problem solve together for Konrad. The dude just enjoyed causing strife and horror but wouldn’t face it. Some brothers to help face it……so many instance of this! Man they have such a great lore.

[@Uzzgub]

Russ would have been a good second to the Glorious Hawkboy, as Russ excepted what he was. So he learnt about his powers from Sanguinius, and Russ would have made him understand that to do what he was made to do, would bring peace and some comfort to the broken soul of Konrad

[@surtrpicks]

@@UzzgubRuss still thinks his legion’s psychic powers are Fenrisian. Seems obviously convenient and a paltry notion in the face of so much evidence otherwise. Wears a feral facade to show and draw closer to his sons. Yeah he accepts what he is lol.

[@MrRawrCEO]

@@Uzzgub Russ was too abrasive. He meant well (most of the time) but he was hardly the best therapist.

[@michaelstegenga]

This is not the first time Horus had seen a brother "go off the rails" , as this happens after the purging of at least one other brother. (2 and/or 11) Horus was trying to save another when he couldn't have saved those who fell before.

[@____________838]

Perhaps this Konrad business was actually all about the 2nd and 11th…

[@steffanyschwartz7801]

Maybe he views Lion as Leman in this situation, not wanting to see him die

[@robertross9019]

I’m not surprised by this at all. In one of the early Horus Heresy novels, one about the Luna Wolves the Warmaster told one of his other brothers that Konrad’s purpose was to be a living weapon of terror, that the Night Lords were exactly the force/tool needed to utterly break an enemy’s morale.

[@Niteshiftmonkey]

I honestly think Him spending time with Jagathai would have been helpful too. They both were in many ways outsiders within the Imperium. I think him also being exposed to the Culture of the White Scars would have been good for his mental health. The White Scars Stormseers would also have been able to help him find Calm in his visions, and Jaghatai also being prone to “Battle Lust” flurries might have helped him process, and recenter himself when in a rage.

[@henrypaleveda7760]

I feel like Perturabo may have helped somewhat in a similar way. Not really his legion or because of a soft touch, but if Perturabo had dedicated the time to help his brother (lets say to help him be more effective) would mean that he would have provided another stability that may have been more relatable than what Rogal could provide. Beyond this, Perty always seeing the warp would be a similar horror to what curz's visions inflicted on him.

[@N0TYALC]

Really enjoying the Way you occasionally capitalize a word for not reason whatsoever

[@MrMysticphantom]

Sanguinius was indeed the best solution. Even better than the Emperor, if anything, the Emperor would be a bad idea due to his Emp's personality. Sanguinius would have actually spent the time, give Kurze the attention, and talked to him like an equal. It would have been a lot easier to confide in Sanguinius because Kurze would have felt safe with him, and not worry about judgement (which he would have to worry about with other brothers, and ESPECIALLY his father) and it would be critical because Kurze would know Sanguinius ACTUALLY understands what he is going through.

[@____________838]

Should probably keep his wings out of Curze’s reach…

[@MrMysticphantom]

@@____________838 lol well that didnt matter when Kurze attacked Sanguinius while he armed and armored and Sangy was not, guess what, Sangy beat the shit out of him

[@____________838]

@@MrMysticphantom I remember.

[@marthlink5015]

There was no one for Curze because he gave up from the start. His confrontation with Sangu already proved that cause he blamed the emperor for all his decisions and took 0 responsibility for anything he had done. Of all the traitor primarch's he and Motarion are some of the whiniest cause he has no real reason, no real ambition, no real vice - or fault that the Emperor did to him. Curze was his own Angron he has no purpose other than sadistic killing, and he doesn't even have Butcher's nails in him.

[@MrArdhes]

@@MrMysticphantom he didn't beat him. it was a stalemate and Kurze toyed with him through parts of the "duel" and on top, his Armor was not his, he had to slap something together from stolenparts, while sangunius had his own sword. maybe you should read the story again because nothing of your statement is true

[@Deamon93IT]

The only two that could have saved Konrad were Sanguinius and Big E: Sanguinius would have been able to give a different perspective on his foresight while Big E could have guide his wayward child. Actually, I wonder why Big e didn't pay extra care with Konrad, as the gift of foresight could be a damning one.

[@MrFredstt]

I think one of Big E's biggest faults was that he was just too focused on the big picture and future plans he had for all of humanity instead of realizing he needed to be more in the moment and specifically take time out to just bond 1 on 1 with each of his sons

[@nathanholmes9983]

Another that could help would be Magnus the red. He could help but not to the same degree as Sanguinius or the Emperor

[@dartzspade8622]

Only Big E. Angel tried in a way and failed. I think no one wanted Curze to get normal, because as all hypocrite his brothers were, they all needed monster to allow themselves some of brutal methods, to say in the end Atleast I am not as Curze. Read Hammer of Olympia when Perturabo talks to his sister in the end, there is a perfect line about Curze

[@RingOutKO]

It's likely Big E didn't intervene as by the time he realised he needed help it was too late, he was too far gone

[@TheAlexRhodes]

@@RingOutKO If the psychic voice of the Emperor that Curze hears while talking to a flesh doll right before his assassination was indeed the Emperor, then he never believed him to be too far gone, he even commented on the the assassin that was sent, telling Konrad that he could still make a different choice. I take this as a direct implication that Konrad could have chosen to stop the assassin and come to terra and offer truce.

[@NornQueenKya]

I think Konrad would have just slaughtered Horus eventually, believing him to be guilty just like everyone else.

[@Stop_Gooning]

*There is no such thing as Innocence* *=][=*

[@donelkingii3738]

Actually you have a point.

[@MrInzombia]

lol i mean Curze can try. The odds of him beating Horus is slim to none.

[@yerauldda6955]

@@MrInzombia I don't think so, at least that it wouldn't be one sided. Curze comfortably held off the lion and guilliman at the same time then fought sanguinius to a standstill during the imperium secundus (can't remember in which novel) and said he outmatches most of them in skill at arms, without any sense of him bragging. Horus is a warrior and a fighter; curze is a murderer. If he and horus did fight to the death and horus was to win, curze would definitely have fucked him up before he went down

[@MrAdamske]

@@yerauldda6955 also made Corvus Corax go 'oh shit I want none of *that* chap' during the Istvaan massacre because he saw they were so alike, yet born on different worlds so he flew away and Corvus is a beast

[@7r3x1992]

I have a thought on Konrad Curze's death. I think he died on purpose because he saw a future where with his help the Imperium of Mankind falls for good. He felt guilt in a moment on lucidity and made his decision to let the assassin kill him.

[@HollowHeart-hh9xq]

Avae Dominus Nox, the angel of shadow has and always will be 2nd favourite :) honestly I would think some time with russ and magnus would also have worked for him, one to control or at least aim his bloodlust and where to send it, and the other to help him see more than the straight and narrow fate and look wider, along with some patience, these 2 will of course have to be mid way through the primarch trading I'd think ^^

[@adamh.4933]

I know Magnus tried to offer perspective but Curze had too much conviction to what he believed his purpose to be.

[@dmajor9982]

Curze attacked the thousand sons because they wanted some time to save a planets knowledge but he wanted to fulfill his order and move on. Magnus wouldn’t have reach him at all. And I honestly think the same of Russ. Russ seemed to look down on Curze. How he talks about him

[@jas25ace]

@@dmajor9982 Russ looks down on everyone but the emperor. Though he did respect Curze as a warrior.

[@Tony_TK]

Kind of hilarious that even Vulkan said Curz is a lost cause.

[@timothylyons5686]

Horus was with the Emperor for a long time. Maybe the Emperor or Malcador mentioned the fact that the Primarch's were the Emperor's weapons.

[@inquisitorgarza312]

Horus was the most beloved of all his brothers and he in turn loved all of his brothers in one shape or other. No doubt that Horus wanted to save his brother from his madness, and the fact is that the Primarch’s only had each other’s and their father to understand one another in the whole Galaxy. Cruze need his brothers and their father love to center him and maybe even give him focus away from the visions that have torrent him.

[@JoeFlamenco]

Konrad Kurze is a literary pastiche of Batman, Mr Kurtz (Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness) hence the first name of Konrad, and a mishmash of darker character tropes focused on vigilantism and an embrace of necessary cruelty, Ala the Punisher. As such, he was also burdened with foresight, but it was always seen through the dark lens of his personality. In other words, he couldn’t see a hopeful future, that’s just who he was. Batman never sees an end to his eternal war on crime, even if he did, who would he have to become to end it? What then? So Konrad is just as trapped in his character tropes, he’s a Dark Knight seeking an impossible Justice knowing that he cannot attain his goals. To this end, he’s angry and embittered, especially at his father for allowing the warp to steal and corrupt him and his brothers. The only peers he could ever have and due to his misanthropic tendencies, he could not relate to them. When the opportunity came along to spite his father in every conceivable way, of course he took it, even unto death. Because death is nothing when compared to the vindication of a child’s trauma.

[@apostle1575]

if not sanguinius, i think magnus could have helped balance out the fatalism through his study of warpcraft and divination

[@ironduke5058]

Honestly I think Sanguinius would be perfect for him. He even states he feels kinship with Sanguinius even though they weren't together much. Not to mention they both get taken over by their visions sometimes, helping them relate to one another more. I feel if Big E put them on more campaigns together it would've really helped him, like a Ying & Yang thing.

[@apostle1575]

@@ironduke5058 definitely. people always talk about Corax being Konrad's mirror but to me Sang is far closer to that role

[@ironduke5058]

@@apostle1575 People forget that the brothers aren't just one thing, their personalities and similiraties overlap. Corvus could very easily have turned to what Corvus was, so I can honestly see the argument for either.

[@tigeriussvarne177]

I think that this was Angrons purpose, to balance out Konrad (and other Primarchs), but the Nails ruined it.

[@gama343]

Sanguinius outright proved him wrong, showing him that the alternate visions they both saw were only possibilities of what could happen. Being confronted by facts that directly contradicted his opinion did nothing to change his fatalistic beliefs, and Sanguinius kind of gave up on him. Curze was probably too far gone by the time he took control of his legion, with the slow addition of maniacs from Nostramo being inducted into the legion a rather blatant symbolic reflection of the cracks in his mind spreading.

[@josephjohnson5415]

Pairing conrad with the angel first would be too dangerous. Horus knew of the blood angel curse, and if anyone could accidentally bring it forth, it would have been Conrad. Vulkan and Rogal being first makes perfect sense because they most esteemed humanity itself as worthy of defending or sacrificing for.

[@eldetraquer]

I believe the other way sang would have try to teach curze that his vision could and can be change. Both of them have saw the nightmare and their end but sang accepted his fate. Not curze

[@Mitchmyoutube]

Konrad is the most interesting Primarch

[@eichler721]

Sanguinius and the Emperor where the only options for Konrad to be saved his other brothers lacked either the knowledge or Konrad's respect for it too work. Nobody else had his abilities to give him perspective and for the respect to listen.

[@Erebdai]

Great video. Ive often wondered about an alternative outcomes on many events in 40k.

[@NoName-lo9ym]

To stand a chance at fixing Curze's brain you would need Sanguinius, Malcador and maybe the Emperor too

[@SomethingRedundant]

If they were willing to try redeeming Konrad instead of exterminating him and his legion, then the two erased legions/primarchs must have done things truly heinous.

[@MrFallenone]

Why? What was the great sin of Konrad? Nobody would call Nostramo a world worth losing a legion over. Him atacking Rogal ... Angron would also end the same for atacking Leman by that logic.

[@darkhighwayman1757]

Wasn't one lost and the other purged?

[@SomethingRedundant]

@@MrFallenone honestly, probably more justification in purging the world eaters.

[@user-le1uk5qr1w]

Horus' view of Konrad as a weapon is similar to how the Emperor has viewed his primarchs in general.

[@Scufflegrit]

You know Konrad would’ve only found new excuses to hate and be jealous of Sanguinius over time. Hell, with any of his brothers. The second he landed on Nostromo, Chaos’ job was done. The one thing every single primarch inherited from their father is a fundamental inability to get over themselves. They are right, because look at them-of course they are. Konrad was destined to die like a madman just to prove a point no one cared about but him. Horus believed he could fix him because he was the Emperor’s most beloved son and the bestest big brother ever, so of course he could.

[@steffanyschwartz7801]

Petition for Konrad Kurze Week

[@Duppyman695]

Maybe Horus just wanted some one worse than himself around? or maybe Horus had a job that only The NightHaunter could handle? or maybe Horus actually cared about his brother? I wouldn't like to delve to deep into either mind!

[@jackb1272]

Some very reasonable points, but I’d say for the first option, it’s likely that Angron filled that role of being worse than Horus - the man was a literal psychopath (though I know it wasn’t really his fault and we can blame his upbringing to an extent - I’m just saying he probably did worse things than Horus). For the second option, I reckon you could probably get someone to fill the roles that curze played - if you wanted a figure for someone to fear, so they wouldn’t go against you, then again angron plays that role, and if you wanted a stealthy assassin/infiltrator, you’ve got alpharius. I could maybe see Curze’s foresight being something that Horus wanted on his side, and thus a reason for Horus to try and save him, but other than that, I think the most likely option is that, even under that monster of a man, Horus really did want to save Curze.

[@DirtyMardi]

Lorgar the fanatic, Fulgrim the narcissist, Angron the angron and Mortarion the sicko were not bad enough, or sociopath Perty? Horus and Magnus were the only fairly level headed ones of the bunch.

[@erwerewolf]

not me stuck thinking about the war crimes possible when the nightlords and world eaters work together

[@markrtoffeeman]

After the Lupercal was corrupted by the cult on Davin, anything he did or had planned is suspect and entirely self serving Horus was no longer himself and was corrupted utterly. He'd left the path The Emperor laid out for him. This means any plan Horus had for Conrad is suspect. Horus and his Chaotic benefactors corrupted the tools The Emperor designed to save Humanity

[@spookymaddy2599]

like what corvus realized at Isstvaan, the dream was destroyed, and never could be repaired.

[@eltonjohntubola3212]

If Konrad Curze had a positive parental figure things would be different.

[@Darksmirk1]

100% agree. Also if I may, maybe the Khan? He could’ve shown the value of honor, the hunt without fear tactics and explained how his own visions can cloud judgement. One of those 2 in my opinion could’ve maybe help Konrad come to terms with his psyche. Either that or take him to the Big E.

[@ryansauchuk7290]

so the plan was for Vulkan to hug his brother?

[@dalaminaubis7822]

Horus wanted to start with Vulcan because of his personality. He probably imagined something along the lines of them having a disney musical number in which Vulcan explains to Kurz all of the beautiful things about friendship while dancing through the lava fields. If he was aware of the premonitions and Sanguinus' equivalent powers, he probably would have started with him.

[@umbra6772]

I think Gman was underrated in how he could've helped kurze in the sense of personal habits to help cement him during his visions like give him ideas for him to help himself be a bit more sane. May not be the best but no questioning it would've shown him a different fate

[@perisdim]

Is there a point in the lore where Dorn reflects to these visions of Curez's during the heresy? I don't think he would admit making a misjudgment tho

[@scottphillips8607]

He would if he felt he was wrong. Dorn was honest to a fault.

[@____________838]

@@scottphillips8607 but would he feel he was wrong?

[@scottphillips8607]

@@____________838 That's hard to say. I think he would once he felt that he failed to protect the Emperor, but before that I don't know.

[@MrFallenone]

@@scottphillips8607 Maybe he will think on this when he carries his fathers corpse to the Golden Throne... maybe its what finaly breaks his resolve.

[@lambey6113]

Hey mate are you excited for the new Helbrecht novel from black library coming out?

[@fightforaglobalfirstamendm5617]

Can you do a poll please on who the fans would prefer to follow, the Imperium led by the Emperor the man, the God Emperor, Malcador, Roboute Guilliman or Sanguinius?

[@steffanyschwartz7801]

Sanguinius hands down

[@ironduke5058]

@@steffanyschwartz7801 I disagree. Though I would love the Glorious Hawk Boi as my leader, Gman would be the better and more practical choice.

[@steffanyschwartz7801]

@@ironduke5058 to much blue people. He’s already running it

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

Ave Dominus Nox

[@Not.Jason.from.the.southwest]

As I've gotten older I've identified more with Curze. He's suffering pre trauma and pre PTSD. It's tough enough to reintegrate into society as a combat vet. I imagine that being able to pre-live the horrors of a galactic crusade would take a toll on even a Primarch brain. I also believe that a Primarch, who I believe has perfect memory, would be very prone to problems. Add into these issues that Curze's signature move was "skin alive.". It's a perfect storm of Primarch levels of depression.

[@michelveilleux123]

Sanginius launched himself down the narrow hallway, his brothers The Lion and the Lord of Macragge behind him, desperately pleading for their Emperor to stop. He couldn't. When he heard that Lion had brought the creature that wore his brother's skin with him, he had to see him. He knew what he had done. But he didn't care. He knew that this could go wrong in so many ways. As such, Sanginius, with great speed, had practically flew to the place that held Kurze. He had came to kill him. He came to the bolted door, ripping it off its hinges, a feat that only his Primarch strength could preform and came to a stop: Konrad sat in a corner, rocking back and forth hugging his knees to his chest, muttering words under his breath. There weren't any straight jackets strong enough to hold him, much less any large enough to fit him. Even in his thinned and gaunt state. His anger quickly dissapated, seeing the state his brother was in. Replaced with something that anyone else would have considered as pity. But to the Angel, it was remorse. Slowly, he approached him. If Konrad noticed, he didn't show it. "Konrad." No reply. "Konrad." Again, nothing. Fighting back a sigh, Sanginius slowly knelt before his insane brother, gently trying to coax a reaction from him, but to no avail. The Astartes meant to guard the room trained their bolters on the Primarch of the 8th in the event it was just an act. Suddenly, Konrad blinked. Then slowly turned to face the Angel. "...Sanginius?" His voice was broken, tired and weary. "Konrad-" "Is it you? Really, you?" Sanginius paused at that. A moment passed, and the Angel did something unexpected. Gently, Sanginius lifted his hands and cupped the face of Konrad Kurze. Kurze's eyes widened at the touch, though he made no move to remove them, only staring into the eyes of the man who should've hated him most. Another second passed. Fresh tears began to roll down his cheek. "Sanginius... Sanginius..." "It's me, Konrad. I'm... I am here. This is real." Like lightning, and before either anyone could react, Kurze reached for him...and hugged him. Eyes tight shut, he wheeped loudly, uncaring in how he appeared. The Astartes turned to each other in uncertainty, then back to the scene. "Sanginius!" He croaked. And so, Sanginius, ever the Angel, gently wrapped his arms, and wings around themselves, embracing the Primarch of the Nightlords. That seemed only to strengthen Konrads emotional mindset as he cried harder. It sounds like a cross between animalistic howling and throating grunts as he continued to cry out his brother's name. "SANGINIUS! SANGINIUS! SANGINIUS!!!" And all the while, he held him, there, in his arms. The Astartes watched on in shock, momentarily lowering their weapons out of pure astonishment as the Lord Rouboute and the Lion watched from the entrance.

[@christopherhartford5066]

I actually think Sanguinius would need to happen much later. Part of Konrad's insanity was caused from essentially shaking hands with Sanguinius and seeing him die in the future. Personally I think he needed to get a sense of duty from brothers like Vulken, Rogal, and Perturabo. Then learn to detach from the Lion and Jaghatai. And THEN learn to embrace the crazy from Corvis and finally Sanguinius. This is also assuming these brothers (like Corvis, Perturabo, and Johnson) didn't have major issues of their own and embraced their roles fully.

[@MrFredstt]

Considering they weren't all how they were intended to be I would say it would still have been a good idea just take out people like Perty and Corvis

[@christopherhartford5066]

@@MrFredstt I think that a loyal Perturabo could have taught Konrad how to just knuckle down get what needs done done. Dunno. Maybe my bias for perty is showing through too much. What's wrong with Corvis as one to help him through the insanity parts?

[@MrFredstt]

@@christopherhartford5066 Because if I'm not mistaken in the lore Corvis absolutely hated Konrad

[@ZiGGi03]

Can you read “Throne of light by Guy Haley” I’d like to hear what you think about what the traitors are looking for and the visions they are getting seems to be a big deal some massive powers are stirring and I’m excited.

[@Nortic111]

You're must be psychic, I just re-listened to 'Artifacts' last week!

[@Memelord1117]

Damn you erebus...

[@davidmacon1138]

Sanguinius would have been the very best choice for Curze. Should have been obvious but ...... plot. Thanks Rho!!!

[@fixedG]

Sanguinius is the only one who could have spoken about having visions of the future from a place of true understanding. If those are truly what drove him over the edge, then I'd say Sanguinius is the one who could have helped best. That said, though, I think the key is what differentiates the two. I think that those two represent a sort of super-state of optimism and pessimism. We can all be optimistic or pessimistic about the future, but these two guys could see visions of the future and STILL come out with diametrically opposed outlooks on life, the Imperium, the Emperor, the galaxy, everything. If that's the case, they're going to look at the same glass and never agree if it's half empty or half full, if there's predetermined fate or free will, anything like that.

[@donperez8774]

(From a bloody, warp-ichor drenched data slate; Imperial verifications identify speaker as Konrad Curze) "(Chuckling) Horus wanted to pair me with the Huggy Primarch and Stubborn Dorn for fraternal healing, instead of Sanguinius, who has more in common? Not so important am I that Horus could drive me to Sanguinius, all because of Dad's galactic conquest deadlines? Bad personnel decisions; Horus is his Father's son, ain't he? "Ask how that bonding exercise with Magnus and Leman went; that backbreaking exercise really helped them understand one another. Happy exterminatus, Prospero (blows on a party horn-like instrument that appears to be made of intestines and tongues). Oh, and I was separating myself from Nostromo's corrupting influence. I BLEW IT UP, DUH. If you haven't noticed, why do I enjoy being away from the legion of idiots I was stuck with?"

[@MandoMTL]

The only thing that kept Konrad's psyche together was knowing that he'd be "punished" in the end. He knew of the assassin's coming for ages, and most likely felt relief when he finally came for him.

[@harmmany214]

Konrad's downfall was that he was a psyker and didn't really understand his abilities. He had the gift of fore-site like Sanguinius, but did not understand that what he saw was only a POSSIBLE future. He was 100% sure that it must be the only future, because he felt guilt for the choices he made and if it was not 100% the truth he could not ignore that guilt with the knowledge that it was the "only way". This is why he allowed himself to die, because it vindicated his actions not to others but to himself. He would have done well to have big daddy E, Sanguinius, or even Magnus talk to him about his gift. Telling him that his fore-site was only a possible outcome, not the only outcome.

[@Danterag5]

How come Wolf Lord Rho can make Horus cooler than GW did, and make me more interested / sympathetic in Horus. Rho makes is framing the tragedy of it all very well.

[@toddolson4614]

I do think there is a slight hole in the lore concerning Vulkan and Curze. We always hear how Vulkan always held back when sparring with his brothers. So when Vulkan was being terrorized by Curze and mentally attacked, I just have to believe that Vulkan's capability (and need) to hold back would be diminished and his full strength released. I think Vulkan should have escaped much earlier with more of his mind intact. I also believe that Perty couldn't know the full potential of Vulkan's strength when building the maze/jail.

[@paul-antonywhatshisface3954]

The thing about kurze is chaos knew it couldn't corrupt him and so did its absolute best to break him in the eyes of others. It couldn't destroy or corrupt him so it's only option was to throw off his morality scale by manipulating his circumstance (the worst upbringing ever) This in turn made him commit horrors that made him hate himself resulting in the night haunter. He was always doing what he was meant to, bring justice. He was just going too far with it, his methodology being wrong due to his lack of scale when it came to punishment. I reckon leman russ being partnered with him would have prevented all of this. The executioner and the judge.

[@przemysek2511]

If i can be that guy i will say "Sangunius you had one job and u pop Curze in a pod in space" Now for real Konrad is a victim of his own talents he was too good at what he did, like he did make Nostromo a some what normal stable planet sure ruled by fear but its better to fear one Person then to fear everything and everyone, meh as it sounds i personally see that as a positive change to nostromo before Konrad (actions). To add to this theory his brother didnt do much to help him to find hims self in his new role where instead to adjust his methods to crusade he just MADE the old way works in the crusade and we all know Big E dont care as long as u get results and to leave to much of a blood trail (looking at u Angron u poor poor bastard). Bottom line he had many chances to turn in his journey but it just wouldnt fit his character or story he was made to tell. ps weird why Horus was tasked with Curze fiasko because we all know hauling him back to Tera was a job for Russ oh well ps2 there is still hope, as we know Big E can/plan to resurrect dead primarch as long as the soul is salvageable like with The Gorgon heck ask Bile to clone him, sadly i think he will stay dead as much as we wont get Horus comeback but yeah Horus is much much more then bad guy cuz he was best among the Primarchs for a reason and not just in power levels but much much. Have a nice day everyone o/

[@DaddyCabby]

I'm pretty sure there's a line about the emperor wishing that Conrad had spent more time with him but they just didn't have enough time, I feel like as time went on Big e's patience got thinner.

[@fiveofnin]

I Wonder how russ and Conrads rehabilitering would of worked out? I think it would of changed Cruzs legion building possavly?

[@miloshdrown577]

Konrad as was the Emperor's justice, he was betrayed by his own homeworld, they only sent him the dregs for his legion. It was the constant pressure of evil/corrupted souls that was sent to him to forge in to a legion, that tipped Konrad in to insanity. Horus was always the Emperor's arrogance, that was his downfall, he wasn't what he thought he was. He was the only Primarch that the Emperor kept with him for a long period of time. Every other Primarch was tested and then given a legion and sent off, but Horus was kept by the Emperor's side until Ullanor.

[@eljefedeguerra1343]

My Jarl! I have a feeling that the emperor is exactly where and how he wants to be right now. Thst perhaps his long war is on a scale much larger then abaddons. Some of his sons rebelling him becoming what he is now. What he will be. Perhaps this is the recipe for godhood. 10,000 yers of chaos and feeding his soul with worship. Some of the stuff the sigilite has said and the stuff about the khan and fulgrim being swapped and the Phoenician falling to chaos instead of his brother. Perhaps his fellow perpetual broke away and or left becuase they saw the dream of godhood would cost humanity so much. Godhood the only chance for humanity? We saw him jack up nurgle real good and he is still in his “cocoon”. Does the emperor know his becoming g a god and taking on the four could be the only way we survive. Was this his intention for after we had achieved the webway. Or perhaps it is grim back up when the we way plan was so foolishly destroyed

[@mobiusZero2]

Vulkan, Sanguinius and Gullimen might help with Konrad. Vulkan - teaching value of life Sanguinius - sharing the same experience Gullimen - Understanding order and diplomacy little, having mother of Gullimen teaching him love in himself

[@Youdontmakethiseasy]

It's storys like this that too me, make the heresy hit that much harder

[@lowellslagle2849]

I think Vulkan to shock his system, then Sanguinius for growth and connection, then Russ for a crash course in the importance of brotherhood, then Corvus to affirm his purpose and gifts, then Rogal for reconciliation.

[@dingesskahn]

it would have been really cool to see early early conrad curze. I keep thinking something like a cross between judge dread and batman. Only I think batman wouldn't skin people who broke the law. Pretty obvious curze was meant to head up the arbites after the crusade

[@Nyctophora]

If the Emperor had taken time to teach him about his psyker side, things would have been better. You make a good point, often missed, that Curze was made with his role in mind, by the Emperor.

[@mattezuka1274]

Did the emperor make kurze to be so violent or did he forsee his corruption or change his plans based on how everyone came back

[@MrFredstt]

Likely the emperor had plans for Kurze being a sort of enactor of justice keeping worlds in line but he was just too fucked up by the time he was found

[@Knight-chaplainashriel]

Really should look into building a Night Lords army. Love their aesthetics ,...just not the whole scary torture vibes. But I can see them as noble knights under the proper leader. Bellisarius Cawl has been tinkering with traitor gene seed if I remember right. I might just be able to blend them with the 1st or 9th for the noble knight look and feel. And dropping the whole", I'm a murderous psycho" schtick they seem to be about.

[@GreasusGoldtooth]

I always felt bad for Curze. It wasn't his fault he went insane.

[@riverraven7359]

Russ would be the better choice in my opinion, showing the loner Conrad a true brotherhood and an acceptance (or malleability?) of fate (think of wolfsbane and the Spear of The Emperor) . It would help that Russ respects his ferocity and fighting strength too.

[@MrArdhes]

I think at no point we are being told Sanguinus had the same dark Visions as Curze. As far as i understand the gift of foresight was way stronger with Konrad and he was able to reach out way farther into the Future than him. I don't really know if Curze was able to be rescued after all the time alone, the planet, the insanity, and his legion, unlike Sanguinius. he had to Crawl through the molten core and the crust of Nostramo, fighting monsters to survive as an infant, and then all the rest of his life on the planet all alone. Maybe Big E but that dude had zero fucks to be given and Curze was really useful how he was. None of his Brothers was as effective as him bringing Planets to compliance with almost zero dmg, while his brothers just Flaten planets if they don't comply. Can't remember, but there was a story and a conversation between some of the brother around this topic.

[@MrFallenone]

Pretty sure Sanguinius was limited to himself and his legion with visions further into the future being distorted and unreadable. Kurze could see the death of everyone around him. Not much alike at all.

[@WhiteIkiryo-yt2it]

maybe Magnus should have spoken to Conrad and have him speak to his sorcerors who also dealt in preminition.

[@chrisrodgers855]

It is not the first because he already dealt with losing the second and 11th brother, so I think that’s why he wants to save Conrad so much. Now some info of the past has been erased from their minds read vengeful spirit. So some of their lost brother was forgotten purposely but Horus still knew their names and Malcador choked Horus almost to death just because he tried to say their names. This is why I think he definitely tried to save Conrad

[@thomasalegredelasoujeole9998]

You can take the night haunter out of nostramo. But you can’t take nostramo out of the night haunter

[@harly_brus944]

Konrad as a Dullahan would be awesome 👌

[@joechurchill6945]

I think mortarian would have Been a good fit, yes he hated psycers but he would have told Konrad to ignore the visions and forge his own path maybe in doing so he would gain control over it by denying the outcomes

[@CapTripps]

Would have taken Vulcan to teach him empathy and compassion. Which Conrad never learned on his world. He was meant to be the judge of the primarchs. So he was very strict with the letter of the law going as far as killing a starving little girl for stealing food and another for an attempted suicide but if he had learned empathy he would have been able to see the circumstances that led those people to their actions and judge them differently. Then it would take sanguinius and possibly magnus to help him with his visions of the future. The lion could have helped due to both growing alone and putting in loyalty and discipline into him which dorn would have helped with focus and discipline. Also able to earn forgiveness with dorn and learn that too. Malcador could have also tutored him which would have gone a long way in several areas and helped with his visions of the future. Conrad had several people who could have helped him but didn’t. He’s the more tragic, along with angron, where they could see he was deeply flawed and needed help yet not one of them lifted a finger to help him. Just gave him a huge army of psychotic killers, massive weaponry, sent him off alone, then made snide remarks about him constantly, and then got mad at him when he began falling apart mentally.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

I think that hoping for time with Rogal to pay off in anything but blood is wishful. Sanguinius, yes. The Lion, yes. Corax, yes. Magnus (who never would have agreed to it), yes. Until they could be with their father, Conrad needed a personality and temperament that understands layers and the hypothetical, not the "eyes straight ahead" view of Rogal.

[@miguelperez9906]

If you wanted to save him you would have to prioritize keeping Sanguineous alive since they both had the vision of his death on earth each confirming it to eachother solidifying the belief in fatalism within curz. If sang had lived his view of the finality of his own death would have shattered. He and sang had a real ice moment when they went to the planet that switched off their shared power

[@eyeof3ndr364]

I don't fault Horus for trying to help poor Konrad. He already went through losing two of his brothers, watching their names and legacies being erased, and grief hurts. I don't think Dorn or the Khan would help with rehabilitating him, but Vulkan would have been a good start, so long as Konrad could go to Sanguinius next. Lorgar may not have been much help, considering he kept Kor Phaeron and Fucking Erebus around, even if I believe that Lorgar did truly care about his brothers.

[@arbiter9375]

I feel like Sanguinius would’ve been a kindred soul for Conrad to share his burden but I think a good teacher for mastering his visions of the future would’ve been Magnus. The teachings of the Corvidae would’ve been good for him.

[@ourcommonancestry6025]

Monday is alive, he's why Mr hugs isn't back yet

[@racspartan1]

👍. Great Video.

[@bigbonk3841]

Wouldn't it be the third or fourth time horus witnessed something wrong with his brothers? After 2 and 11 were erased, he kept quiet about the blood angels too

[@TheKnizzine]

You would think they would have DiD meds roughly 28000 years in the future.

[@ryanart7241]

I’m a simple man! I hear a Vulkan week is coming I *STOMP STOMP*

[@randomcenturion7264]

Reading this broke my heart. It was like watching Anakin and Obi-Wan at the spaceport all over again. Horus in one of his last moments of genuine nobility bonding with Vulkan over his plan to save their tormented brother. A plan that COULD have worked, especially if Sanguinius was on board.

[@the_guitarcade]

If not for the Nails, Angron would've been the caretaker Kurze would've needed.

[@Bluemilk92]

It's pretty cringy, but I see potential in a 'slice of life' style story with all the Primarchs going through a mandatory "Bonding trip."

[@Marqui91]

Oh sanguinius was universally loved by all his brothers... How did Angron see him? Before the heresy?

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

Konrad curze"you cannot save me"

[@kelman727]

At least Angron can say he was warped by the Butcher’s Nails. Kurze had no such excuse.

[@Ninja40K]

His visions and he believes in fate.

[@____________838]

Didn’t his birth pod plunge into the magma of Nostromo? Or was that a different Primarch? If it was Konrad, then the pain of clawing his way out of the melted stone would definitely be enough to fray his mind.

[@steffanyschwartz7801]

@@____________838 yep that was Konrad. I’d say Mortarion has no excuse

[@bodricthered]

He's my bet on primarch next to return, since he never left as he faked his death...

[@kelshadowmourne9466]

the problem of showing him how to use his power was him reveling if he learn about the god tier project of the emperor in 40k.. so the best for all is him death.. the emperor really act cruel here

[@jakobstiefelmayer3259]

To divide Horus into either simply good or evil for each indidivudal action misses the greater meaning of the Horus Heresy Plot. Horus, Konrad Kurze and all the rest believed in what they were doing and how right it was. Konrad Kurze believed he needed to be the monster so society didn't have to become one. Horus believed he needed to defeat the emperor to be the better leader of mankind. The Chaos Gods didn't corrupt him and he was completely unlogical in the rest of the stories go read how he resists that path at first and has to be convinced it was the right choice. They've managed to add so much depth to Horus character to all of them instead of the 9 evil primarchs and the 9 good ones. I'm not saying they didn't make mistakes but lets be clear if we are talking mistakes every primarch made mistakes.

[@lobogonzalo4745]

I don't believe The Master of mankind really shares the odea of duture bekng undetermined. He always was absolutely sure that believing in gods was to be the end of humanity. At the time He destroy the last church, in a long conversation with the last priest on Terra, He told the priest that religion will be the doom of man ... I know this, he said. I always got the feeling He was referring to a vision of him beeing worship more than a conjecture based on times past.

[@Liopot68]

Put at 1.25x speed for normal speech

[@forgefatherjo1436]

Saying nostromo has innocent lives is a stretch "VULKAN LIVES" Stomp Stomp

[@seanbrazell7095]

Both the Lion AND Kurz annihilated their respective home worlds, but only one of them got away with it.