How Across the Spider-Verse Ruined Peter B Parker

[@SheevTalks]

Alright, now that it's been about a day and I've had a lot of comments trickle in, I'm gonna highlight and try to address some of the counters I've been seeing that I didn't mention in the video, because I frankly never would have expected them to be made until now. As time goes by, I'm sure there'll be more defenses I see that I didn't account for, so I'll just add them here: 1.) "Peter is a side character/his arc was complete in the last movie." I'm not actually sure what this one is supposed to mean, since that in no way counters any of the arguments made about how he's poorly handled, but in any case, him being a side character doesn't mean the writers get a pass to ruin him. You don't have to send him on an arc or do anything meaningful with him if you don't want to; just leave his character alone and let him be inoffensive! Also, the funny thing about arcs is that, if you finish one, you can always go on another. Life is a continuous journey, and all that. Miles also had a complete arc in the first movie, and yet here he is with a whole new different one! Crazy how stories are able to do that. 2.) "The intent was to make Peter comedic." Great news! Peter is already a naturally funny character, and he's voiced by a very comedic actor! You can easily write him to be funny without damaging his character--so let's stop with the false dichotomies, please. 3.) "You're mad about Peter endangering HIS child? Well, Jess Drew was PREGNANT! You should be mad at her!" I am mad at her. Not sure what would have given the indication that I'm not, especially since I outright condemn her actions at 21:05. The difference is that A) I don't really care about her nearly as much as a character, so I didn't feel like making a video about her. And B) she wasn't in the first movie, so it's not like she's being inconsistent with previously established traits, like Peter. What she's doing is fucked up, but in the context of just this film--which is all I'm basing her writing on--she isn't out of character. I'm sure comic book fans take issue with her depiction here, as with basically anyone else that was adapted poorly in the film (Miguel or Ben Reilly, to my knowledge). But I don't deal in adaptation arguments, so I'm not getting into that. Which brings me to point number 4: 4.) "In the comics, Mayday becomes a superhero. And there are even moments where she finds herself in dangerous situations as a baby." I can't speak to any of her comic book stories because I haven't read them--but I'll say to that what I always say when that sort of thing is brought up: If those stories are well written, and the actions of every character involved is in line with their previously established traits, then great! And if they're not, they're not. But either way, that has no bearing on whether or not what Peter does here is justified, and I'm not accepting that argument. 5.) "You're nitpicking." I find this accusation perpetually useless any time it's given, since more often than not it's one that I just don't agree with. Everyone has their own definitions and criteria for what constitutes nitpicking, which makes it kind of impossible to have any meaningful conversation about this. If by "nitpicking", you mean I'm assessing every scene Peter is in (of which there are very few) and breaking down the actions he takes therein, then...I GUESS I'm nitpicking. But call me crazy--if I sit down to make a video about Peter. B Parker in Across the Spider-Verse, I'm gonna try to limit the scope of my focus to the few scenes that are relevant to that discussion. I know, crazy right? Also, I'm afraid I can't agree with the premise of this argument anyway, because it is NEVER a nitpick when your criticism has to do with one of the main characters from the first movie being systematically butchered in the second--even if his appearance is brief and swift. Sorry, that's just not how that works. Character and plot are two of the most important aspects that make up a story. Without them, your themes would have no meaning, and the story falls apart. So if one of those things takes damage, you've weakened the overall product. 6.) "The film itself/the wider audience doesn't care about any of this as much as you do, which makes your entire argument invalid somehow." I don't really see why the larger audience not caring as much about this matters to whether or not the character is poorly written here. This movie could have been seen my 5 people or 5 billion, and it wouldn't change any of the actual content. The best I can figure is that this is an appeal to subjectivity--that if it doesn't bother MOST people then it's really not a big deal. But not only is that not a standard I've ever adhered to, it's also not relevant anyway, because THAT'S NOT WHAT SUBJECTIVITY MEANS!!!! It bothered ME enough to make an opinion piece about it--and it apparently bothered a LOT of other people, seeing as I've gotten many comments that agree with my take. So I guess it's worth discussing, is it not? Or are we only supposed to talk about things that general audiences are interested in? Also, the argument that I care about this more than the film does is funny, because I KNOW the point people are TRYING to make with that one is that I'm overthinking this and it's really not that deep. But all that means to me is, yes, the film itself doesn't care that they've damaged one of their best characters--they quite possibly didn't even notice. And that's the PROBLEM!!!

[@pickyricky6226]

But you ARE nitpicking mostly because the framing in which you produce the argument is flawed. Peter will in that context ALWAYS be able to fully protect Mayday because it's not about her safety - thematically it's about showing the full extent of the choice paradigm set within the Spiders narrative. Everything else is a meta reading on how father's react in those situations which is dare I say, unreasonable sometimes. Couple that with Peter B' downright neurotic sensibilities - you have a logically viable conclusion. It's not "poorly written" because you say so.

[@dafluffman6674]

You can always contact the writers to fix it

[@michaeleanthonyjr]

@@pickyricky6226 I feel like themes are being used to justify aspects of writing that don't need to be written in a particular way in order to communicate the message. Like in the context, he's closely fully capable of protecting Mayday because the narrative won't allow him to be punished for his blatantly bad parenting, but it is still blatantly bad parenting. You can communicate Peter's neurotic sensibilities as a father without him bringing his daughter to a life threatening environment. And if you still want a scene with Peter getting Miles to hold his baby, there are other ways that scene could have been structured that didn't involve bringing her to a dangerous environment, or he could have just shown Miles a picture of Mayday to communicate the same message. The fact that you disregard the potential severity of Peter's recklessness shows that you have fallen for the lampshading that the story provides when the story itself has him point out hiw bad his parenting is but then moves along as if it is inconsequential. The pregnant spiderwoman is also a bad parent for fighting while pregnant and the story doesn't call attention to her in that way, yet regardless of whether or not it is in character, it is still bad parenting (and arguably bad writing depending on the context you want to base it off of)

[@pickyricky6226]

@@michaeleanthonyjr Your critique suggests that themes are being used to justify aspects of writing that don’t need to be written in a particular way, specifically regarding Peter B.’s decision to bring his daughter, Mayday, into potentially dangerous situations. However, a closer examination reveals that this choice is deeply rooted in character development, narrative context, and thematic exploration within the Spider-Verse. Firstly, Peter B.'s character arc has evolved significantly. In ITSV," he was depicted as a disillusioned, struggling Spider-Man. By ATSV, he has matured into a more balanced individual who embraces his dual roles as a father and a superhero. This evolution is crucial for understanding his actions. Bringing Mayday along, while seemingly reckless (again it's riding a slippery slope where you are bringing in real world consequences and concepts into fictional settings), symbolizes his attempt to integrate his personal and heroic lives, demonstrating growth and newfound confidence. The narrative is set in a universe where extraordinary circumstances are the norm. Characters operate within a heightened reality, and their decisions reflect this context. Within this framework, Peter’s actions are logical and consistent with the established norms of their world. The presence of multiple Spider-People provides a safety net, rationalizing his decision to involve Mayday. Does that mean that child endangerment as a concept probably doesn't exist? Of course it does, but not here. Moreover, Peter’s actions underscore a recurring theme in superhero narratives: the balance between personal and heroic responsibilities. By bringing Mayday, Peter is not only showcasing his love and dedication as a father but also trusting in the collective strength and support of his fellow Spider-People. This choice emphasizes the film’s exploration of familial bonds and the importance of community, key themes in the Spider-Verse. Addressing your point about alternative ways to convey Peter’s neurotic sensibilities as a father, it’s important to recognize that narratives often employ actions over mere words or pictures to drive emotional impact and character development. The decision to physically bring Mayday rather than showing a picture creates a more dynamic and engaging scene, highlighting Peter’s struggle to balance his responsibilities in a tangible, relatable way. As for the pregnant Jess, her involvement in combat while pregnant can also be seen through the lens of the extraordinary capabilities of the characters in this universe. Her actions reflect her strength and dedication, challenging conventional notions of vulnerability and heroism. This choice is consistent with the narrative’s broader themes of resilience and empowerment. In conclusion, Peter B.'s decision to bring Mayday into potentially hazardous situations, and the portrayal of the pregnant Spider-Woman in combat, align with the internal logic, character development, and thematic depth of the Spider-Verse. These choices enhance the narrative by exploring the complexities of heroism, family, and responsibility within a heightened reality. While unconventional by our standards, they are coherent and purposeful within the context of their world.

[@michaeleanthonyjr]

@@pickyricky6226 It may be a slippery slope to apply real life logic to a fictional work, but the same can be said about using themes to justify unrealistic decisions. Ultimately, when your character himself acknowledges that what he's doing is blatantly irresponsible, it doesn't become acceptable just because it lines up with themes

[@tobi679]

Dawwg, I never even realized he was showing off his kid to the guy who so desperately wanted to have a family. That's genuinely messed up 😭

[@mmmmythical]

Yeah it is honestly a huge dick move on his part, not a fan of that at all. Like, were the writers thinking?

[@spiderpsycho_8887]

I thought there would be a scene where Miles asks Peter if he'd want Mayday to let him die when the two of them have that moment where he's trying to force Miles to carry her.

[@postcents]

It gets even worse when you realize Miguel potentially has abusive parents just like his comic version and Peter starts off his attempt at a deescalation with “As the father of a daughter, and the son of a mother-“ to a VERY emotionally unstable Miguel literally reliving his worst fears in one day. Jess was so real to stop him cause Miguel would’ve tweaked OUT if he kept going 😭

[@mmmmythical]

@@postcents That's... that's kind of sick. If they are running with that backstory that is outright careless of them. It also doesn't seem like Jess was intervening because of the actual contextt of Peter's advice, but moreso because there seems to be some sort of beef between them and she generally sees him as incompetent. That is to say, the scene avoids confronting this possibility and the potential drama it could resurface for Miguel, but at least that is one less death blow to Peter's character amidst the dozen others :P

[@postcents]

@@mmmmythical I don’t know what’s with Peter in this movie, it’s like he lacks any emotional maturity to serious situations. Miguel and Miles respectively need someone to understand them and get on the same level with them, not have someone joke around and flaunt their happiness when they’re suffering respectively?? People dog on Gwen, but it really says something when SHE was the one to start the band while Peter decided to go home and take a nap like miles wasn’t getting chased around.

[@JohnDoe-jc5kt]

I think the writers just wanted a spider-baby on screen being cute.

[@kingj9664]

Thank you for being the only smart person in the entire existence because that's what everyone seems to miss the point of.

[@streptococo4735]

Trust me, they could have done this WHITOUT ruining Peter. These writters are petty fkers.

[@theimpersonator7086]

Yeah, Peter B. being this irresponsible doesnt track with his characterization and kinda goes against the spirit of the character. It's not like a case where a 16 year old May Day discovers she has powers, and sneaks around behind his back, its bring a baby to a fight lol.

[@pickyricky6226]

Irresponsible? How? Peter B. accepted his role as a caring father and overdoes it now. In the context provided by the film - Peter B (a seasoned Spider-Man) will always be able to protect Mayday.

[@crow5946]

@@pickyricky6226 It's irresponsible because she's a BABY. Babies require 24/7 constant care, they need to be tended to at all times, even when they're sleeping most parents will have things like baby monitors or cameras in the baby's room to keep an eye on them. It's one thing to have a child and be generally overprotective, but it's another thing entirely to conflate being overprotective with being so irresponsible that you let that overprotectiveness drive you to carry that baby with you at all times, even in dangerous situations where you cannot control the outcome. If he really was a caring father, he would leave her at home, with her mother, where she belongs. And if you wanted to make the argument that he wanted her to be protected, then he should have left her at the Spider Society HQ, which is probably one of the safest places for her to be in ANY dimension. AND if it's supposed to be seen as a negative thing that he's "overdoing it", then why is it never framed that way in the film and mostly played for laughs? These were all things addressed in the video, so you either didn't watch it, or didn't pay attention. Either way, he's being incredibly irresponsible in this film, and it assassinates his character from the first, which is really disappointing.

[@pickyricky6226]

@@crow5946 Babies don't require 24/7 constant care, they do need to be protected and that's what the movie frames it by Peter B. acknowledging it's bad parenting. Peter B. overdoes it by simply doing what most parents do - protect their baby themselves because no one else can do it as good as them. Moreover - the consequences of ones choices as a parent are directly proportional to our own competencies. So while yes, INTUITIVELY you might be right, but you are approaching this haphazardly and devoid of context. So there is s logical precedent and a narrative one - all of it easily trackable through it's internal logic and in a meta way.

[@crow5946]

@@pickyricky6226 None of that matters if the context doesn't justify why he does it. Just because there's a reason doesn't mean it's a good one. No one is saying he doesn't have a reason, the problem is his reasoning is not good. Just because he acknowledges it's bad parenting doesn't make it okay. This is exactly what Sheev was talking about when he mentioned lampshading. I have a feeling you didn't actually watch the video, because everything you're using as an argument is directly addressed by himself and multiple people in the comment section. There is zero reason to endanger an infant in this way. It doesn't matter if he feels like he can protect her better than anyone else, he willfully brought and continues to bring her into dangerous situations where he himself could risk being injured or dying and the most insulting thing about it is he showed more care for the wellbeing of a child that wasn't even his (Miles) in the previous film, going to great lengths to prevent them from putting themselves in danger at great personal risk to himself, and yet does not even try to find an alternative solution to caring for his child in this film despite everything that was set up to portray Peter B. as a good father. That is textbook character assassination. He is irresponsible in this film even though the entire thesis of Spider-Man as a character is that with great power comes great responsibility. He is the one who is willing to shoulder the responsibility of saving entire dimensions that aren't even is, yet can't even be responsible enough to keep his daughter out of potentially life-threatening conflict. There is no justification for that. The fact that it's played for laughs and never directly addressed as something that's toxic or is never directly called out by any of the other "responsible" adults in the film just rubs it in.

[@pickyricky6226]

@@crow5946 It doesn't matter if it's a good one or if his reasoning isn't good - it doesn't make it textbook character assassination. Or bad/lazy writing. Characters don't have to make sound decisions especially with character like Spider-Man who are known for their neurotic and/or self-destructive sensibilities. Sheev is using lampshading as an excuse to frame his argument as if it has a logical antecedent. It doesn't. This Peter is still fully realized within the paradigm as established before. In the context provided by the film: - Peter is a proud dad who wants to "parade" Mayday around to people especially to Miles who he believes needs it - this is an endearing and relatable trait fathers typically share (myself included). - Peter (like Mayday) is an experienced superhuman, probably even the OG (as evidenced in the canon scene) and is fully capable to protect Mayday. The plot doesn't set anything up that would endanger any of the Spiders (or even potentially kill them) because it's not about that. Thematically it's about Miles persevering the odds. So it doesn't logically follow neither thematically or narratively that Mayday's life would ever be in danger in these particular circumstances using this particular Spider-Man. So in conclusion - neither you Sheev have provided an actual argument that doesn't boil down to nitpicking or using base intuition to justify this position. A story doesn't need to have character making "logically valid" decisions because if that was the case Spider-Man would never let the robber go that killed Uncle Ben. Peter has no reason to let him go, we feel that he should because (in certain interpretations) the fight promoter was a dick. With Mayday - the thematic impetus is that he's an overly obsessed new dad who loves his daughter and wants to show her around to everyone.

[@chriscanul4075]

I was disappointed how little he was in this movie. Like they had something to say about his character but didn't give him the screentime to say that

[@julio.dealmeidabranconeto5831]

What did you expect? He's NOT the main character. That's Miles. Peter already had his development in the first movie, and the second had to focus in other characters.

[@cristianrojas9684]

@@julio.dealmeidabranconeto5831 The movie character assassinated an entire multiverse of Spider-Men just to prop Miles up. Miguel was written the way he was as a fuck you to those who didn't like Miles.

[@julio.dealmeidabranconeto5831]

@@cristianrojas9684 1- How can you character assassinate a multiverse of NPCs? XD 2- True. He was writen like that. He was ALSO his own character with his own motivation for doing the things he was doing. So what's the problem?

[@mcrain1283]

erm maybe its because it was only part 1

[@CustomKaiju]

@@julio.dealmeidabranconeto5831 Gwen was the mc, movie started and ended with her he still should've been in the movie more.

[@totallynotdio1311]

People complain about peter yet say nothing about gwen's spiderwoman mentor, who fights as spiderwoman WHILE PREGNANT

[@theperiidot]

True

[@CinnamonBob]

She was established doing that so that criticism can't be held as a character assassination or inconsistent characterization Edit: I'm not defending her or saying that she is likable or well written, just that she is consistent! (consistently unlikable if you will)

[@fortherepublic6475]

​@@CinnamonBobTrue but that doesn't make her likeable.

[@sjfs231]

right, not only is she risking her baby's life by fighting wile pregnant but those kinds of acrobatics could also cause issues with the pregnancy

[@Tat011]

How does that hold up? She can't leave the fetus at home lol and she still needs to be a super to save the world and stuff

[@yaboiportch]

Between Peter and that heavily pregnant Spider-Woman, this movie had a really bizarre attitude towards child endangerment

[@SuperMattman21]

200%

[@egg_l0rd13]

Yeah, the decision to include an actively pregnant spider-woman on the job was very strange to me. Bizarre that the spider society doesn’t have maternity leave lmao

[@kingbash6466]

​@@egg_l0rd13My guess is because it's referencing that run with a pregnant Jessica Drew and much as I think that story is dumb, at least they made an excuse for her that villains attack her while she's doing normal everyday stuff for the most part. Here, Jessica is basically on a high-speed motorcycle doing the most dangerous shit while her kid's still in the oven. Would be shocked if the baby came out in one piece.

[@noahblevins9569]

It is a pretty insane thing to include. It didnt really add anything of value to the story in either instance.

[@scooterjones303]

classic woke

[@humanpersonthatpersonslike6381]

Come to think of it, it would have been neat if spider byte tried taking care of Peters daughter and the distraction being what caused byte to miss Miles.

[@SuperMattman21]

That would’ve been great!

[@BonW]

This is such a good point. It gives the film the "cute baby moment" that the creators were wanting for the marketing and doesn't wrecklessly include her in a chase.

[@KenLinx]

Another thing to note: Even if Mayday can survive falling great heights because of her spider-powers, Peter _shouldn't_ know that. If he did _know_ that, that would mean he was irresponsible enough to let Mayday potentially harm herself.

[@capsey_]

Goddamn it, now I imagine Peter repeatedly accidentally dropping Mayday from progressively greater heights each time thanking god for her being ok but slowly realizing what is actually going on

[@RaiginAnimator]

Can’t she climb walls pretty sure I saw that. Haven’t seen the movie in a while

[@KenLinx]

@@RaiginAnimator She can climb walls, but that doesn't mean her skin's just as tough as Peter's, and Peter shouldn't know if it is or not.

[@RaiginAnimator]

@@KenLinx I know but what I mean is if she can climb walls there’s a good chance that she accidently fell off of one when The parents found out she could do that which is where they learned this

[@KenLinx]

@@RaiginAnimator ? Then they'd be bad parents for allowing their child to climb to dangerous heights.

[@billjacobs521]

So basically, when Peter thought he'd be a bad father, he was correct.

[@Paolo-ec2si]

Ok.... Harsh 😬

[@revenantronin8377]

@@Paolo-ec2si but true

[@Doomboy292]

My biggest problem with Across The Spiderverse was the idea of "Canon" and how readily all the Spidermen adhere to it. Like, Spiderman, of all heroes, feels more likely to do his best to challenge fate rather than kowtow to it. Spiderman has never felt like the kind of person that would tell some kid "Hey, just let your dad die". I understand the context of the situation. I can see some iterations agreeing to it, but all of them? No way. I would've like a scene that specified that the Society is built up of a select number of Spidermen that were willing to travel dimensions and "accept the responsibility (canon)". While Miles is awestruck at the Spider society, have him remark at how they have EVERY Spiderman, to which Drew (or maybe Hobie, in a sarcastic way) state that it's only "the agreeable ones", which might stick out as a red flag to Miles but he'd be so caught up in everything that he'd let his concern fall to the wayside. or failing that, a change to the chaos of the chase where it's not thousands of Spidermen vs Miles, but more like half of them being unwilling to let Miguel basically hold a kid hostage while his dad dies and so they help Miles escape by slowing down the other half that agree with Miguel.

[@whateverwhatever4476]

It's probably cause Kiguel took them at their most vulnerable Josh Keaton has talked about this over the weekend and gave his own idea- that Miguel found Spectacular Spidey right after the Captain Stacey death and that Peter, still reeling from it and losing another authority figure in his life, latched on to Miguel and his "this was out of your control" logic.

[@demon_warrior870]

I think you found, a plot hole or least made a better part that could of worked for the movie

[@talibjames2659]

well all the spider-man in the society arent all of the canon spider-men. we can see toby and andrew's spider-men, and they arent in the society. obviously they wont be for obvious reasons but i think it goes to show that many spider-men wont agree with miguels philosophy and wont join. A more relevant point is that spider noire is nowhere to be seen until the end. I was curious about this and apparently in the comics he wasn’t told: “With great power, comes great responsibility.” Instead, he was told: “If there is too much power, then it is the responsibility of the people to take it away.” So he wouldnt agree with Miguel being the main man leading a group of spiders. So I think its safe to say not every spider-man is a part of the society.

[@nothingwrong2293]

Canon thing makes even less sense when you know that there are dimensions where uncle Ben (or uncle Ben-like figure) is alive and well and their universes aren't crumbling

[@Jsipki265]

@@nothingwrong2293I think they make it pretty sure that Uncle Ben isn’t always the guy to die they use him as a example “ everyone has their uncle ben “ or something similar to that

[@Tat011]

I agree 100% If you like a piece of media, you need to be able to point out its flaws. Otherwise, I'd say you don't actually like it and instead like the idyllic version that's in your head.

[@merkingsavage6045]

100

[@danpaz9485]

This whole thing could of been adverted if he realised that his existence as a superhuman with superpowers would likely endanger his kid and likely more if him and his wife die, theres no one but the remaining superheroes to take care of Mayday, even if he wasn't endangered due to his strength and good deeds, we should be a question on whether he can be a good parent or not, which would be an issue, because there are alot of different canons to the character, what they had to go through and how they dealt with trauma or reacted to the world. Heck they could still have their own children not biologically related to them, they could adopt rather than risking a biological kid of theirs with superpowers to be killed or suffer through the most nasty things the superhero world has to forcably offer than he could realise it probably, at least a regular child would have a less stressful life than a superhero.

[@t.i.5528]

Why does he bring a baby on a multiverse endangering adventure rather than leaving her with her mother who is right there.

[@SuperMattman21]

Leaving her could have made for a believable good point of manipulation for the spot. He could have pulled MJ and Mayday from his universe and pulled a Dark knight and kept them in danger at two different places forcing him to split one way or another.

[@OG-ColorfulAbyss.]

The better question is "Why are most characters in everything nowadays so dumb and reckless"

[@noahblevins9569]

​@@OG-ColorfulAbyss.Bad writing. Writers assume the masses are unintelligent, so they just write whatever they think will be appealing or push their agendas. For the most part, they are correct. The people that call it out and/or dislike the nonsensical garbage are the minority.

[@OG-ColorfulAbyss.]

@@noahblevins9569 Oh I know full well of that. It's one of the reasons I couldn't stand it in the CW Flash every time they tried to explain something about speed because they're always dead wrong. Even worse when these idiots get into arguments about how it works and they're wrong by default because they just blindly believe what the show tells them. and yeah, sadly stupidity has always been the majority since the beginning of human history.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

Because stay at home moms are oppressive, regressive, male supremacist propaganda. According to feminism anyways...

[@ar_reactions612]

I absolutely adore Across the Spiderverse just as much as Into, but I agree with a lot of the points you made. The writers definitely went too far with “goofy dad” Peter at times.

[@CinnamonBob]

Careful sheev, if th3birdman sees that you criticized a movie despite claiming you liked it he may accuse you of hating it

[@shanehudson3995]

Birdman needs to get bird flu.

[@L33Reacts]

Ugh that fuckin dude 😢

[@lukescrew1981]

What is it you people and th3birdman?

[@Calawey]

Well you see, in the comics- 🤓

[@burnypython8230]

@@lukescrew1981Birdman accused Madvocate of disliking No Way Home despite in the beginning of the video, he clarified that he liked the movie when a bunch of comments in his previous videos wanted the film to be covered.

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

🅱️eter 🅱️. 🅱️arker has 🅱️een 🅱️anished to the quality of 🅱️ad.

[@neonthunder3261]

🅱ruh

[@AlphariusOmegon618]

🅱oggers

[@rollinghouse7140]

🅱️eter 🅱️ 🅱️arker 🅱️uts 🅱️is 🅱️aby 🅱️n 🅱️anger 🅱️onstantly

[@Sousabird]

I loved him in the first and was so pissed at him in the second. Last movie, not only were you willing to die to protect Miles, but you were so bent on not endangering him that when he couldn't use his powers, you webbed him up to prevent him from chasing you. And Miles was a superpowered teen, not a literal infant.

[@theimpersonator7086]

Peter B.Parker in the first movie is a excellently written character that got transformed into a bad comic relief character in the second movie. It's a shame since a character being funny or comic relief doesnt mean they cant be serious at times, or well written.

[@flowdirectt]

Holy shit its a movie get a grip 💀

[@Sousabird]

@@flowdirectt Its just my opinion on a movie, get a grip.

[@flowdirectt]

@@Sousabird you are acting as if peter is real and is abusing a liittle infant irl, how mentally rеtаrded are you exactly?

[@flowdirectt]

@@Sousabird plus its not even his fault, blame the fucking writers you actual knob 😭

[@TheStrangerSpeaks10]

Not as irresponsible as the pregnant spider-woman performing a miscarriage of justice.

[@alexanderchristopher6237]

Ever since James Cameron does it in Avatar 2 and that was widely acclaimed (because James Cameron always was able to deliver beautiful spectacle), now others are doing it. Saying it’s progress or something. Next thing you know, they will start cancelling maternity leaves by saying pregnant women are as capable during their pregnancies.

[@gunchar06]

@@alexanderchristopher6237 Yeah, i'm sure they will start to base actual laws on fictional fantasy movies, get a grip bro...

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

​@@alexanderchristopher6237 That was done YEARS before in the comics actually waaay before Avatar 2 and it was JUST AS HATED THERE. One of the WORST comic runs ever. It was also done in Last of Us 2 and the woman got KILLED just to make Ellie into a monster😒

[@emptyorchestra]

​@@no.1spidey-fan182 Also in Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus. That game was way ahead of it's time in terms of "progressiveness".

[@rainestorm6029]

Ah yes because she's a woman and he's a man she's more irresponsible

[@sewing3049]

Spiderverse: into the child endangerment

[@buddyisbored2355]

I feel like the "No time" argument could've worked in the movie's favor if framed right. If it just ran like, -The chase for Miles begins, chaos to find him erupts in the HQ -Peter takes his time to find somewhere safe for Mayday, either back in their universe or somewhere in the universe. -Now he's way behind on getting to Miles before anyone else does, so he has to work against the clock to find him. -Because he's worked with Miles before, I don't think it's out of the question he could use the communications of the other spidermen to find out where Miles is hiding.

[@munkeybrayn8696]

Also I would like to add Peter B also knows Miles well enough to probably find him later. He knows his invisibility power and he basically taught him how to move, it wouldn't be crazy to say M- "how did ya find me" P- "took a shortcut and you swing like me. Now look at my baby" Honestly a Gwen Peter side scene where they took the low ground or a more stealthy route, in the guise of cutting miles off or getting him on his flank would be awesome.

[@munkeybrayn8696]

This way you keep the speech and mayday. I would also like to belive that showing family pictures is to slow down Miguel for miles. I feel that he is the most torn to side with. I don't think this destroys Peter's characterization but that is more a suspension of disbelief about mayday. Like spiderman the cat in the miles video games.

[@crow5946]

I like the way you framed it because I think the biggest problem isn't that he COULDN'T find somewhere safe for her, it's that he didn't even try. The chase for Miles begins and the literal first thing he does is tell his baby (who could not possibly understand him) "I know this is wrong, but I'm doing it anyway."

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

Funny tuing is he does the last point. Because he KNOWS Miles he's able to pull him to the side AWAY from the other spider people to have an entire conversation

[@Anonyomus_commenter]

I think it’s because we as an audience subconsciously understand that Mayday won’t be harmed. She’s a cute baby, obviously we know the writers won’t hurt her. And I think most people are then applying that logic to him, and assuming he also knows that Mayday is basically invincible until she is like at least 16.

[@shealupkes]

I would love a twist that wade was wearing a peter parker skin mask in the second movie knowing the screenwriters wouldn't hurt her, because wade is the one who can break the fourth wall and peter isn't

[@squirtleawesome1064]

Imagine all these arguments saying it was fine to endanger Mayday in an alternate universe where she genuinely dies. Oh Peter you weren't at fault, after all this was highly unlikely!

[@griffinmadison2002]

I fully understand the stuff with his kid was for comic relief as well as his role in the movie for humour and I liked it and found it funny WHILE STILL fully understanding and acknowledging that it fucks his character by putting her in danger all the time and making him passive and just not even remotely the same as his first run. I can live with both happily and still enjoy this movie. Though I really need course correction for him with the third movie.

[@themetalchica]

What you said, verbatim.

[@egg_l0rd13]

100%

[@SuperMattman21]

Yeah much of how I feel about this movie is predicated on how the characters are handled in the finale

[@potentiallyschizophrenic]

honestly, my biggest problem with the movie is how it ties itself into the MCU and its multiverse mechanics, which basically fuck this movie’s story into an early grave with how incursions, variants and multiversal travel are utilised in the MCU, along with the new bad mechanics this movie introduces such as canon events.

[@SuperMattman21]

I think more so it was just reclaiming its spidermen for the film. And just refrencing mcu for laughs. I don’t recall feeling like I need to take that connection seriously in anyway.

[@shealupkes]

I don't remember needing to care about the mcu while watching this movie, I hope beyond doesn't force me to

[@UnicornStorm]

@@SuperMattman21 well, by doing it just for the laughs, they included all the shitty MCU baggage into their canon, which is a problem since the MCU rules clash with the spiderverse rules. but doing things just for the laughs that break immersion or logic seemed to be a theme with this movie

[@ThePreciseClimber]

TBH, the way the 1st movie set up the rules, it felt like it was meant to be a standalone story. The whole "if you stay in another universe for too long, your atoms won't like it and you'll die" thing. I knew for sure the sequel would have to handwave it with some BS plot device aaand... yup. The whole premise of the 1st movie is no longer an issue as long as you wear a wristwatch.

[@revenantronin8377]

They have now added "anchor beings" to the Multiverse nonsense. So now imagine this, uncle Ben's death is a canon event, BUT he's also the anchor being, BUT he is saved via time travel which creates a variant of himself which would in turn create an incursion anyway. Like, what happens if it turns out that a villain is the anchor being of a Universe? What if Thanos, was the anchor being and his death means the MCU's 616 is doomed to perish in a thousand years? These writers can't seem to stick to one consistent Multiverse model.

[@ArcTrooper269]

I'm happy people are starting now to see the massive flaws this movie left. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this movie, but there's nothing I hate more than Echo Chambers & Circle Jerks, so any well argumented criticism against even good films are always Welcomed to me

[@narutoxley]

It's probably a "Haha, baby in movie!" for the normies...

[@lukescrew1981]

No

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

@@lukescrew1981Yes.

[@lukescrew1981]

@@Lobsterwithinternet No

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

@@lukescrew1981 Yes. Same reason why they do it in most movies.

[@lukescrew1981]

@@Lobsterwithinternet So babies are not allowed to exist in movies?

[@ganondorfzant]

How are the Spider people able to live at that base without that universe breaking? How can they recruit other Spidermen without that universe breaking? What is the universe breaking threshold? Miguel gets around a year, but the Indiaverse breaks in a few minutes. If canon events are important why didn't Miguel's and Miles' universes break instantly? How can a cannon event be the result of a being (Spot) from another universe? I understand Miguel is suppose to be wrong, but no one else should even believe him based on the evidence that: Miles' universe still exists, that the Spot can create a cannon event in the Indiaverse, and that they can all coexist at the base without the universe breaking. I didn't like how the movie handled Ben Reiley either, only making fun of him.

[@slinkyslink5161]

This is why I hate multiverse and time travel stuff. Everytime, every story that uses then, if you use your head and think about them for a second you see they make zero sense.

[@SuperMattman21]

@@slinkyslink5161I mean the amount that ITSV was perfectly fine though

[@christiannoriega428]

Pretty sure it only breaks when preventing canon events specifically. Not that everything happens a specific way. What makes something a canon event isn't explained though.

[@kade-qt1zu]

@@slinkyslink5161 I don't think the concept of the multiverse is flawed, and I can definitely think of ways to improve the concept in future media.

[@OG-ColorfulAbyss.]

@@kade-qt1zu it's definitely flawed. No one has ever even done it right, especially when they use time travel at the same time.

[@BloodyBart888]

This is absolutely fair critisism and i hope Peter becomes a more assertive and responsible father/father figure to Mayday, Miles and Gwen but if i had to come up with a reason for his behavior(and this is me reaching i admit) it may be that he is looking to inspire hope in Miguel and Miles. Miguel had his worst moment and Miles is about to have his and Peter is trying to show them "I know life sucks but there is still hope. Look at me; i lost everything and now i'm happy!" Still tone deaf and insensitive but he is trying

[@shealupkes]

I feel like some kind of flashback sequencing can how the early stages of peter trying to talk sense into miguel before he "gave up" excusing his muddled and unclear stance in the second film, peter and miguel's relationship has always been strained and complicated and I feel like on top of peter's character as a whole they need to do that relationship justice in the third film

[@nothingwrong2293]

Inspire hope in Miguel? How, "Hey, at least my daughter is still alive!"?

[@rennythespaceguy7285]

Ngl seeing the clips from the first film next to the second really made it clear how much weaker AtSV is. I think it really suffers from not being nearly as focused as the first. I think the parts in the Spider society are the main issue as the jokes are at their weakest and simultaneously the most in your face, and the characters feel far flatter than they did in the first. The non stop references really took me out of the film in that part too

[@thehollywoodpessimist]

I may not have liked this movie at all, but Peter pissed me off the most (other than the stupid “canon events” concept)

[@Hametsu-2000]

Yeah, that was my issue with the film that I noticed was they are trying to make miles seem like the best by bringing down the other spider people. Even the writers and director said this is miles story and if your not a fan of miles then tough titty, he's spider-man now. So, it shows that they favor miles over the multitude of spider people. I like miles, but he's not my favorite. Peter parker is the true OG spider-man for me and to see what they did to him in this film, it's disappointing. 2099 is my second favorite spider-man and he to had to be relegate to bad guy to make miles look better than he actually is. Dodging, evading, and escaping spider people who have way more experience than him in the field. Its a great scene in a good movie but it makes spider society look bad and the whole canon event concept is sheer ridiculousness the writers came up with for fanservice BS and to connect everthing. It's basically like the hero fight in BVS. It looks good, sounds good, but you question why it's happening. Like you can't dictate the annihilation of an entire universe on wether a key moment happens or not, just like you can't decide to kill superman because you had a nightmare about him taking over the world. Its sheer lunacy. The thing about a multiverse is that anything can happen. Similar worlds with different outcomes. There are worlds where uncle Ben is saved and alive, worlds where gwen is saved and alive and worlds where police captain's are saved and alive, but with the canon event logic. Those worlds don't exist and are eradicated from existence because they didn't follow the set path that all spider people must go through. It's stupid and it brings the film down. I don't have a clue as to what they might do for the next film but it has me worried because it's easy to f#@% it up, give up, and just pander to goofs.😬

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

"Peter parker is the true OG spider-man for me and to see what they did to him in this film, it's disappointing." Except this isn't the "OG Spider-Man." This is Peter B. Parker, he is his own character. He has his own timeline, his own struggles, his own flaws, etc. You're affirming the director's quote, you're making Mile's story about your idealized fantasy of what Spider-Man should be, when the FOUNDATION of his character is that he is, in fact, a loser. Peter was a troubled, angsty, socially awkward nerd from his first appearance, that was, and continues to be, a pillar of his origins and struggles. "2099 is my second favorite spider-man and he to had to be relegate to bad guy to make miles look better than he actually is." Again, this is a different world with different characters and rules. You're not judging the film on it's own merit, you're judging it based on your own sentimentality. Which is fine, art is subjective, and you enjoy what you enjoy, but you're framing it as something objective, something the film did wrong. Miles is right because he is the center of the film's themes, he is the protagonist. I am far less interested in criticizing the fact that the film frames Miles as right, because if we were to do that, most stories would crumble. I am more interested in WHY Miles is right, what the film is trying to say, etc. "Like you can't dictate the annihilation of an entire universe on whether a key moment happens or not, just like you can't decide to kill superman because you had a nightmare about him taking over the world. Its sheer lunacy. " Friend...that's the point, you're answering your own question. It IS lunacy, and the fact that everyone just kinda goes along with it is the reason why Miles is mortified by it. We see small versions of this every day. It happens when people want to change things up, go their own way, live unconventionally, only to be shot down by friends, family, and society at large, destroyed and rebuilt by an unthinking world who merely wants you to shut up and get in line. These people may start too feel anxious and alone, as if reality is melting away, because these rules are arbitrary and entirely subjective? Who decides if a certain path is wrong? This is the conflict Miles goes through the entire movie. You think this is absurd, but I think it's unbelievably realistic. You, me, and many others do it every day. I get that the logic can be flimsy, but art does not always have to subscribe to logic. Films are born from emotion and intuition as much as they are born from logic. It's not merely a matter of "turning off your brain." Screw that, braining is fun. Rather, if the logic of a film's events fails you, tureen your brain onto the other aspects of the movie. This movie really resonates with me personally, because I don't really care about the logic, I care about the themes and the character's journeys, They're not all perfect, but they are full of heart. "and just pander to goofs" Pander to who? It sounds to me like you want to be pandered to yourself.

[@Hametsu-2000]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355, buddy, I can enjoy the film and I love Spider-Man ever since I was a wee lad. I can see the art and value it brings. The joy and inspiration, but the flaws still hold it down, there are some highs and some lows and just like I can speak out about how great it is, I can also have my own grievances with it. It's like a beautiful girl with bad gingivitis. She looks great, she's fun to be with, she says what i like to hear and she has a beautiful sing voice, but uh, baby you need to get them teeth fixed and just like that because I voice my opinion she cuts my head off and points out how I'm wrong for pointing out her flaws and I should've just had fun even though them teeth are distracting and that breath is uuufff. 🤢😫

[@daryltor7608]

Miles is Spider-Man, 2099 acted as a vessel for people still didn’t like miles despite the first film.

[@Hametsu-2000]

@@daryltor7608 , I enjoy miles origin and his overall character is relatable, I respect it. Had he been my first introduction to spider-man back in the day, I'd be a big fan of his as I grew up in the hood was hispanic, and never really fit in at school, but he ain't my favorite as Peter parker came first and is the true spider-man. It's a simple fact. You ask some random people who is spider-man, what's his true identity? Dollars to donuts they're gonna say Peter parker. OG spidey is an icon. Why do you think they have to put miles morales name on every comic cover of his comic, cause he's not spider-man, he's miles morales spider-man. Damn that's a mouthful. Hell even 2099 spider-man sounds cooler as a title and considering it's set in a blade runner futuristic city with a 90's edge and Miguel himself is so cool, his costume is badass and unique. It's no wonder he's my 2nd favorite. Bottom line, although miles isn't my favorite he's possibly top 10 for sure.

[@daryltor7608]

@@Hametsu-2000 Yes, Peter is Spider-Man, nothing is stopping that. But there kids growing up with Miles as Spider-Man and that’s cool

[@HBstudios2005]

I hated how they did Peter B Parker and Gwen in this movie Miles was Gwens' friend, but she didn't stand up for him when he needed her help most, and then near the end of the movie, she went to his house and just made his parents worried Also I find it funny how Miguel is basically a dictator when in his comics he's a lot like Spider-punk

[@Treck533]

Well no, the difference is Gwen has justification for her actions. She makes mistakes, thats called character development. Peter B is just lazy and often times un empathetic.

[@CS-om3kj]

yeah they kinda ruined 2099 Spider-Man. But this is an alternate one right?

[@amirmatthews7385]

​@CS-om3kj It makes sense, this is an alternate version that destroyed a multiverse and has to be in charge of an entire organisation that if it fails will result in universal collapse. They didn't ruin him.

[@amirmatthews7385]

​@Treck533 Thank you, people can be so stupid.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

​@@CS-om3kji liked how the Ultimate Spiderman show did Spiderman 2099. It made more sense.

[@CalciumChief]

Oh, I know. It was already pretty bad in Into, where the main 616 Pete (guess we're now trying to pretend it's "616B", but it's not) was turned into a walking punchline. He's fat, he's lonely, he's almost incompetent, he's depressed, he can't be married (the spirit of Joe Quesada remains). Then comes Across and the only thing they can think of is "he's a hyper dad". It's nice he finally gets to just have a kid, but they went too far in the other direction. They didn't even let him wear his mask ONCE in that movie, his freaking daughter gets to weak a mask at least twice. Yeah, yeah, easier to show emotions on faces, but Spider-Man's mask emoting with its eyes is a thing. Then he has to wear a pink bathrobe all the time too because they need a visual shortcut to make him stand out from the see of Spider-Folk. Him constantly having a baby wasn't enough? The audience can keep track of one guy, who isn't even taking part in big chase shots.

[@luispalao7418]

I get that he’s a parent now, but they made him into such a goofball and idiot. Why does he bring his baby on dangerous missions? Why doesn’t he put his baby back home when shit hits the fan? Why is he running around in pink slippers and a bath robe? He just wasn’t as good as in the previous movie.

[@alexanderchristopher6237]

Typical goofy irresponsible dad trope that was common in too many comedies. Plus, how are they going to sell us the cute factor of baby Mayday Parker? Baby Mayday is probably what would help drag in audience who don’t care a lot about Miles, Gwen, Miguel, or the other Spider characters. Not to mention also what would help drive conversations about the movie.

[@lukescrew1981]

Wrong

[@ZimSan]

The issue with Peter B's characterization spreads to literally all Spider-Men but Miles and maybe Indian Spider-Man. The dogshit justification of having Spider-Man of all heroes decide to just accept a meta concept as stupid as canon contradicts Spider-Man's origin. His uncle died because he chose to do the wrong thing and Peter became Spider-Man so his uncle symbolically would never have to die because of him again. Now there is an entire Spider-Man cult including Spectacular that has sworn to KILL the manifastion of Ben and Gwen's father no matter what it takes. It is fucking bonkers that while Peter is holding his own infant daughter that he basically tells Miles to let his father die just because the future CAN hold happy moments as well. The film made a poor case of why every single Spider-Man would buy into that multiverse destruction shit not even attempting to find a solution especially when MCU Peter did just this and they even acknowledge that movie. The answer is as simple as just not having the stupid cop not show up at his job to save your family and not one Spider-Man thought of this shit.

[@zacharybosley1935]

The answer is as simple as "having someone else stand by while people are in danger-" doesn't seem correct to me? Telling Jefferson that he will die saving a child isn't that much of a narrative difference to telling Miles that Jefferson will die saving that child. Neither of them would stand idly by while someone's in danger, which is what typically cements the event in canon. It does bother me that an entire society of Spider-heroes has not found a solution to breaking canon, considering they're all mostly brilliant, but I suspect that's because they're halfway through an arc. A major theme of the movie is that people can only do both when they're supporting each other, and we have only seen half of that pan out here.

[@blkvnm6003]

Not even talking about why neither Tobey or Andrew "glitched" in no way home if they are connected. Or their rule of captain dying saving a kid from rubble in an altercation of an enemy but they show Andrew Garfield's Captain who got slashed by lizard not even the same scenario. Or even the supposed timeline stuff takes place. For instance Miguel does his first jump with a "prototype" as he called it at the end of the first movie and Gwen joins his team 12-15 months later. So in that 12-15 months he got back to his own dimension, finally fixed the prototype probably after a few tries, built a spider army, lived in a new dimension with a new daughter long enough for it to collapse, then figure out why it did and create "cannon rules" for it, and finally convinced all the spider people that he is right with no objections. All that happened while supposedly miles broke cannon because his original Peter wasn't supposed to die but his universe didn't collapse. The more you take a step back you realize the plot makes less and less sense.

[@ZimSan]

@@zacharybosley1935 My dude. They have technology that can accurately predict the exact date and location of canon events. Just leave both the child and the cop at home and deal with your supposed "arch nemesis". I'm saying supposed because the arch nemesis of Indian Spider-Man is the Spot of another universe who just met him and only is interested in getting acknowledged by Miles from another universe. Not to mention at the end there exists an entire universe that is breaking canon completely by having no Spider-Man anymore and no one gives a shit. Brilliant movie that doesn't fall apart by the mildest of scrutiny.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@ZimSan I posit that those holes are deliberate actually. The universe without a Spider-Man, the universe threatened by the Spot, and the universe that was destroyed by Miguel are all factors that are going to be explored, but not explored by Miguel, because he dogmatically clings to Canon in order to justify why he cannot be happy

[@yagamifire7861]

Exactly. The core dramatic conflict of the movie is TOTALLY untenable and destroys the characters of all the spider-men

[@fishyfishfry1998]

I don't understand why Sony in the movies and Marvel in the comics find it unacceptable to let a superhero take a few years off to be a parent or even to give birth.

[@PJmachine]

I can see how it would be hard for a hero to just let people get killed when they can stop it. Other people have kids too I guess.

[@shealupkes]

paternity leave in the spider society is nonexistent I guess

[@nothingwrong2293]

​@@PJmachinethen don't make them a parent

[@zanlancer4426]

I am really hating this new trend of serious situations constantly being undercut by comedy.

[@cancerconnoisseur]

I mean peter B parker bringing a baby everywhere was really obnoxious. It's the only L I really have with the movie.

[@everythinggirly916]

Oh it's so satisfying to know that I'm not the only one who didn't like Peter B in this movie. I know the first movie was more about Miles and Peter while this one was about Miles and Gwen, but he shouldn't be just a comic relief. He was always funny but now he's supossed to be funny because he's a bad father? It's really sad seeing a character reduced like this.

[@kingj9664]

It really sounds like you all take this stuff away too seriously.

[@OceansOfMotionStudios]

​@@kingj9664 sounds like a cop out. People kept saying that about star wars until the majority of content released under the IP became crap. If you like something enough, knowing what you like and dislike abbout it isn't taking things too seriously.

[@kwayneboy1524]

He's not a bad father

[@pajamapantsjack5874]

I love this movie but it is just like…why would you do this. Very similar to bring anakin to the Naboo battle

[@white-eyed]

holy shit le Jack himself

[@mattdragon1253]

The anakin to naboo this probably makes more sense than this, considering George was basically forced to put him there

[@SuperMattman21]

@@mattdragon1253and at least Anakin was the main character of the entire series

[@darthJ9]

They retconned our boy

[@madladon]

The main obstacle you're going to face is that the movie is animated. People aren't going to see the danger of dragging a baby into a superhero fight solely because of that.

[@white-eyed]

that's just objectively not true

[@overtherenowaitthere]

the same dangers that apply in real life are suspended far above belief to an audience when they watch an animated film

[@sjfs231]

@@white-eyed that is objectively true, it's literally what happened with this movie, how many people have you seen point out that the pregnant lady fighting as a superhero is risking her baby's life, not many.

[@Tat011]

@@sjfs231 my brother in christ people where wining about this since before the movie came out lol

[@Ersa_]

@@Tat011 and still those complaints were drowned out, probably because they werent actual complaints and more of nitpicks. come on, they're comic characters, they defy logic and realism and use it for humor and other situations

[@JonSnow-YThandle]

Well... It was a silly as the pregnant lady swinging about. I guess having the toddler aling for the ride was meant as a comic relief. It might have worked in a different movie. Something like home alone wher brinks to the face make coocoo noises instead of horrible injuries.

[@joshuapurdy7065]

Home alone was serious injury’s. Like yeah it gets cartoonish but tell me it’s only minor bumps when looking at the burglars at the end of the movie. They are almost walking corpses

[@JonSnow-YThandle]

Sure they look chewed up. But I would argue the injuries are rather funny than horrible :) which is fine since it's classic slapstick humour.

[@mon_of_the_dead]

What can I say? You described my exact thoughts about Peter in the sequel, almost as if you read my mind, even with the same alternatives I thought he had, like leaving Mayday in the Spider Society HQ and not taking her to the uncertain and potentially dangerous mission to find Miles. I love him so so much, he's my favorite ITSV character too and my favorite Peter Parker of all time, I literally ugly cried from happiness the moment he briefly showed up in the first ATSV trailer, the moment he started speaking in the second trailer and finally when I first saw the movie. But I didn't walk out of the theater feeling as happy as I thought I would be after seeing him again for the first time in four years and a half, instead I felt disconfort from how out of character he felt. The more I thought about it, the less I liked his intervention in the movie at all. I too hope BTSV fixes all these issues a lot of us seem to have with him in ATSV with a really *really* good explanation as to why he did the things he did, as well as a flashback revealing off-screen ways he tried to fix his mistakes like trying to reach out to Gwen after being violently returned home, but ultimately being unable to due to her universe being parent-locked in his watch, but I fear that still won't make all the odd stuff he did and inaction he committed on-screen magically disappear, there's no way they can convincingly recontextualize all that mess 😔

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

The defenses of this movie remind of the quote, "Don't question it. Just consume product, and then get excited for next product."

[@motor4X4kombat]

Thats deadpool and wolverine for me.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@motor4X4kombat yup, that one as well.

[@SWIFT_NINJA47]

Uh no because the product is good this movie is a good movie

[@motor4X4kombat]

@@SWIFT_NINJA47 don't even try budy

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@SWIFT_NINJA47 no, this movie is just fine. Not even a complete story. Even if it's part of a trilogy, it should still be able to stand on its own. It didn't. It was mostly set up for the sequel. Didn't even have Miles go through any major growth. Just so safe and bland.

[@ItsOneOne]

Wait a minute . . . . . this isn't Star Wars.

[@mattdragon1253]

Yeah this Is an actually good movie he's talking about

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

​@@mattdragon1253eh, it's kind of mid

[@lux4163]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp No way we are entering the phase where we acting like this movie is bad.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@lux4163 I said it was mid. Not good, not bad. Somewhere in the middle.

[@themetalchica]

Waiting for the take on pregnant Spider-Woman and her fighting and speeding like a maniac on a motorcycle...

[@UberPanzerhund]

I don't think she's pregnant the next time we see her after the intro, it was 5 months later after all.

[@themetalchica]

@@UberPanzerhund So that would mean she flew through a portal on her motorcycle and fought off baddies while in her 3rd trimester? You're not helping your case.

[@themetalchica]

@@UberPanzerhund She's heavily pregnant, whether 5 or 9 months. There are memes about this. Not taking on her character after attacking PBP for his childcare choices makes the issue all the more obvious, though that has a lot to do with your definition of when life begins or if a mother should be forcibly made NOT to engage in such activities. You can't flip out over his character's handling of parenting and not address Jessica Drew.

[@daniquemaxwell5070]

@@themetalchica This video was primarily about Peter B Parker on how his parenting is in contradiction to his character in the previous movie Granted Jessica Drew should be called out for the same reasons but we know hardly anything about her character and I honesty don't think Sheev even cares about her character because he did say he liked Peter in the first movie and didn't like how he was handled in across the spiderverse

[@themetalchica]

@@daniquemaxwell5070 It's about parenting choices and who is makihg them in this film. That should examine more than PBP as a father, and Sheev barely explores Miguel as a father, but no mention of a heavily pregnant Spider-Woman roundhousing bad guys with her motorcycle. Sure. Makes sense.

[@SilverDan]

I’ve only seen this movie once and it was in theaters on opening weekend, but I was able to pinpoint exactly what I didn’t like about the film the one time I watched it, my biggest issue being that Peter B. Parker is treated like a joke in this movie. He is purely there to be portrayed as an idiot and this is honestly one of the reasons I haven’t seen the movie since then despite how much I love the first Spider-verse movie.

[@GaboCO316]

"As a father of a daughter and the son of a mother" is one of the worst written lines in all of fiction

[@Benshavit493]

Really, I thought it was cute

[@GaboCO316]

@Benshavit493 how is it cute? It has nothing to do with the huge tension built up in the scene. It's not funny, it's not even in character, and as Sheev said, it doesn't even seem like Peter gives a single fuck about the situation at hand

[@crow5946]

@@GaboCO316 It's also incredibly out of touch and tone-deaf for all the reasons Sheev listed, the most obvious being Miguel is still potentially grieving over the loss of his own family and is obviously mentally unstable

[@JazukaiX]

@@Benshavit493 it's reddit-cute, meaning cringe

[@daryltor7608]

Why tho, He is a father and son of a mother (Aunt May)

[@ahn_soka]

Are we also not going to talk about the fact that he just literally bring his own daughter to a dangerous adventure with the Spider Gwen Team to find Miles at the end of the movie?

[@aviewer774]

Honestly the whole film has issues with its plot. Like how the hell am i supposed to believe Miguel is right when being in a different universe will destroy it but he invites thousands of Spiderman to his home universe. Multiverse stories are just always gonna be fucked up story wise

[@aviewer774]

Also to note that Miles isn't the original spiderman from his universe. So I just assumed the original Spiderman already went through that canon event. So everyone ragging in miles for not letting his uncle die is funny. Also Miguel says he's not canon and is an anomaly so why does Miles have to care about fulfilling the canon event?

[@USSMariner]

It's like Lord and Miller aren't as good as everyone said they are. Damn that only happens all the fucking time.

[@jakubrejak1114]

@@USSMariner As in "Lord and Miller are overpraised constantly" or "acclaimed writers are never as good as their perception and they don't deserve their accolades"?

[@malikpierre-louis3343]

Gee it's almost like the point is that he is wrong or something ?

[@aviewer774]

@@malikpierre-louis3343 but he's not. The Indian Spiderman's universe broke because Miles saved the police chief. Also if Miguel is wrong it makes literally every single spiderman an idiot for blindly following him.

[@2Potates]

Across the Spiderverse is a movie i feel i should like but ultimately can't really get myself to care about.

[@SuperMattman21]

What about Into the Spiderverse?

[@PhillipOnTakos]

I just find it crazy how you can basically take Peter B out of the movie and next to nothing changes. He feels so unneeded in this movie. It feels almost like they didn't know what to do with him. So just went for comedic relief and wacky dad jokes. Like I forget he's in the movie when I think about it and it just makes this entire situation feel so much worse because he was so unneeded for this story.

[@SuperMattman21]

Somebody explain to me how Peter b Parker could EVER be on Miguel’s side when talking about how they all have an uncle Ben, but guess what: if Miles’ dad dies then that would point out that for every spiderman it might not just be uncle Ben . He might… oh i dunno… LOSE A FUCKING CHILD!

[@cidlufaine9044]

I give Peter some leeway since he was there to watch universe collapse after Miguel fucked up. He has some reason to believe him. Also, that’s not how that specific canon event works. Uncle Ben dying is equivalent to Uncle Aaron dying. Miles’s dad dying is supposed to be the event described as “A police captain close to Spider-Man is crushed by falling rubble while in a fight with an arch-nemesis”. As far as we know, there’s no real “canon event” that describes Peter losing his child, especially if we look to the comics as a source. Of course all canon events are bullshit anyways as we find out in the end (and if we were to take a closer look at what happened at Mumbattan)

[@SuperMattman21]

@@cidlufaine9044hmm fair enough, but now looking into it. I’m even more confused because “fathering a daughter” is listed as a canon event, but obviously Peter B would have never done that if he didn’t meet Miles. I also think that it would be interesting if they do introduce the possibility that mayday is in danger.

[@cidlufaine9044]

@@SuperMattman21 See that point is what kinda pokes holes in Miguel’s concept of canon events. The canon event in Mumbattan couldn’t have happened without the Spot being there and the Spot wouldn’t have existed without Miles. Not to mention, The Spot isn’t that Spider-Man’s “arch-nemesis” as the canon event describes. He’s Miles’s.

[@StephenLeGresley]

Maybe Hera from Ahsoka was his parenting coach.

[@Warhammer_lover]

Why no one mentions that every spider man aside from miles in this is complacent in murder? Like, they let people die all the time, cause "muh destiny".

[@ngabel8956]

I really dislike Across the Spider-Verse. Into the Spider-Verse had a tight script where everything was thought out and purposeful. Across just doesn't have that. Every character that did not question Miguel and just let people die, is damaged. Miles escaping every other Spider-person is ridiculous. What's Spot doing during the latter half of the film? Why is he taking so long to kill Miles' dad? The mechanics of the whole multiverse don't make any sense at all. If a universe is predetermined, then the butterfly effect would always cause an incursion whenever someone travels to any other universe. WHY would it only matter when certain people die a certain way? The idea of a cannon event is so unimaginative. You don't have free-will. Nothing else is possible. Nobody could possibly become a superhero if their parents don't die. A radioactive spider is the one thing keeping every universe from going to hell, like universe 42. These "cannon events" don't make sense in universe, and in meta, a police captain's death is literally non-canon to Tobey's and Tom's trilogies. It COULD happen off-screen, but then WHY use the meta words? On top of that, there was no reason to tie Spider-verse to the sinking ship that is the MCU, especially when the mechanics are so inconsistent.

[@AlOstosman]

Gawd dayumn sheev is feeding us good this week

[@coenvore1675]

can’t complain we eating good

[@sizar9003]

The lengths someone will go to include “funny haha cute baby” scenes in their movie

[@joquin4618]

Valid criticism. I still despise “multiverse” story writing. It’s lazy on the part of the writers with very little consequence to actions. Rinse and repeat, lays down the foundation for more corporate cash grabs. 😡

[@swr.nezumi]

to be fair it's only such a big trend now because of the original spiderverse being so good

[@calebharch7229]

They turned him into comic relief. Peter b Parker is now c3po

[@Savage-nv6wr]

I'm glad it didn't win an oscar , unlike the first one , the second one had bizzare creative choices and dialogue that was very distracting !

[@vonnstevens2502]

Like what for example?

[@emirozdemir-wallywest1426]

Thy try so hard to emasculate real Spider-Man so Miles can look cool.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

Soldier Boy would be so disappointed in him wearing that thing.

[@Sleepy-qr9il]

Glad someone else is pointing out how fucked he Peter is in this movie

[@dylanhudec979]

He’s wrong

[@bzenga5981]

genuinely doesn't even feel like he's a character anymore which is fair since his arc was completed in the first movie but instead of building on it they turned him into a fortnite skin with indestructible baby backbling

[@dannypalin9583]

Bit off topic, but I've only just realised that Mayday's wearing a Spider-Ham baby grow and, coupled with the Spider-Ham comic Ganke was reading in the first movie, does that mean Spider-Ham is a cartoon character in some parts of the Multiverse and the fact that he's real is what's so crazy?

[@windwirler]

Mayday is a future girl boss in the making. The first step in any girl boss’s journey is character assassinating the male character that came before to lift them up. It’s a cliche at this point.

[@PhoebeTheFairy56]

This movie assassinates _so many_ characters but people barely talk about that. It feels like they only cared about the aesthetics of the characters

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I agree! Personally, i think it's overrated. So many characters were assassinated, and i think them focusing on the Spiderverse gimmick for the trilogy is kind of taking the safe way. They could've taken a risk and focused only on Miles being the Spiderman of his universe. Allowed him to truly carry his own. Maybe cameos from other spider people, but not a multiverse story.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

Please tell me what characters they assassinate. Adding and expanding on flaws and depth not seen in previous movies is not a flaw, it's basic storytelling.

[@PhoebeTheFairy56]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 I agree that expanding on characters is not a flaw. That's not what I'm talking about here. A lot of the characters in atsv lack _key traits_ of their comic (or tv show for a couple of them) selves. With ben reilly, they reduced his character into just a stereotype of 90's comic characters, with miguel o'hara, they made him support the very ideals he fights _against_ in the comics, they even managed to have a character who _didn't even speak_ be incredibly out-of-character, because just being in the spider society (and therefore believing "canon events" _actually_ have to happen in every universe) is absolutely not something earth-12041 peter parker would do if written accurately, for multiple reasons. There's a lot more than this, btw, I'm not trying to list them _all_ here

[@Jdudec367]

It really didn't though. No a lot of people clearly cared about the writing and talked about it a lot too.

[@Jdudec367]

@@PhoebeTheFairy56 They have those traits here though. Ben Reilly is still himself not just a stereotype, no Miguel wasn't ever against the ideals of canon events, nah that Peter Parker would do that too when canon events do seem to be a thing.

[@StarWarsExpandedUniverse]

Fantastic vid Sheev!

[@dylanhudec979]

Said no one ever

[@speedygenix5299]

Okay, but what if Peter B Parker is from the universe where child endagerment isnt a thing thats looked down upon

[@teenflash19]

And miles is finally defeated

[@coltonwilkie241]

So a universe where abortions are free in every state and not rightfully banned? Makes sense I guess.

[@Nightfall2077]

Why do you sound so angry over something that's so insignificant lmao. There is no reason to think that her durability from her powers would be less because she's young. And yes it's still bad parenting but like, who cares? Peter B Parker was a side character in this movie so it was probably just done for comic relief and something you aren't meant to read into too much.

[@pedroparker6724]

I understand Miles is the big protagonist but make Peter an irresponsible father and a bad character is so lame, literaly Peter is the most important spider person and they treat him like garbage

[@ummm385]

brother he is one peter amongst 50 thousand in that base

[@SpFlash1523]

I watched ATSV twice, and I didn't like it. I think ITSV is the better one; just my thoughts on the movie.

[@Avarn388]

Peter B Parker I enjoyed a lot in the first film. One of the best examples of the fallen hero trope I’ve seen( take a seat, Jake Skywalker) and this next film just crapped on it. Willingly bringing a baby into battle is stupid and reckless and goes against everything Peter B Parker did in the first film. I suspect this was a change by David Callahan; one of the screenwriters. He’s a hack writer, responsible for Shang Chi, the new MK film( which I can vouch the original script was far better than what we got until he rewrote it) and Wonder Woman 84. Yeah. All in all, Peter B Parker was tarnished and is one of the few major problems I have with across. While I like across, it pales to the first film and I don’t have a good feeling the third one will reconcile the problems of across. I hope I am wrong. I like Lord and Miller. But they are not perfect.

[@jodanger37]

Yes, thank you! This movie deserves more hate. 8.6 on IMDb? 33rd highest rated movie on id n OAT? No! Even if you don’t think it’s awful, this movie is far from perfect. In fact, it’s awful

[@thebobbrom7176]

I agree with this for the most part though one disagreement. I'm pretty sure him showing Miguel the baby pictures when he's chasing Miles is meant to be Peter B trying to get in his way and slow him down. Peter is clearly on his side there but doesn't want to piss Miguel off.

[@TheGalacticNerd19]

As least they did better then what the sequels did to Luke Skywalker. But i do agree with the points you make. Keep up the great work mate

[@OG-ColorfulAbyss.]

A monkey could make better art by throwing its shit on a wall than Disney can make anything nowadays so that's not a very high standard.

[@tevinhoward4419]

The reformed team saw how important Miles is besides the society

[@Alex-the-Cicada]

I saw peter bringing his daughter to Miguel as a means to chear him up. That even though spiders lead a life of tragedy, it isn't all downs, and that things will be brighter for them and the people around them. If Miguel is alone with his thoughts too long it'll only make him worse. So rather than use her to taunt him, i thought it was him using her to ground him.

[@jcore0981]

I understood the reduced role of Peter B. Parker in AtS. The movie was primarily about Miles and his relationship with Gwen. While ItS was about Miles and his relationship with Peter. Plus, with the addition of the Spider society and Miguel being a major character, it makes sense that his role was greatly reduced. That being said, just because he is more of a side character doesn't justify clownifying him for the sake of a joke. It also ruins the message that the movie is going for, which is that Peter adores his daughter. Yet contradicts that constantly. I'm a bit afraid they're gonna continue it for Beyond the Spiderverse.

[@SuperMattman21]

Best move, and this would actually make me laugh, would be if they go right back to the scene where mayday putting her mask on and then see him be like “no this is actually extremely dumb”and put her back in her crib. Then he takes off the robe and jumps through the portal.

[@jcore0981]

@SuperMattman21 That or even just a throw-away line would be sufficient. Oh and get him out of that fucking bathrobe

[@MrGuitarfreak132]

I have to be honest. What they did with Peter DID ruin the movie for me. Which is really sad because I absolutely love the first movie. And there are elements of this movie I really like but yeah what they did with Peter wrecked it for me. The pink bathrobe is so stupid too by the way.

[@withyline]

Someone finally said it.

[@dylanhudec979]

Someone didn’t say it because no one needed to say it. It’s just something y’all find a reason to bitch about.

[@papawedge7396]

17:09 is it, though? He clearly knows what Miguel means and he intends to follow along, at least initially, his hyperbolic statement is meant to subtlely show us that Miguel is an extremist and that Peter isn't as obsessed or in agreement with the multiverse rules as Miguel is, which is why he ends up joining Miles' side at the end, not that he truly doesn't care for the multiverse at all, just disagrees with Miguel's attitude and definetly held some reservations about letting Miles' father die. Perhaps it is Miguels' trauma that you mention what makes Peter so lenient towards his extremist methods at first, as in, he understands where he's coming from? It's not being a "pushover", he's just trapped in the middle of two loyalities. And Perhaps that is why he shows Miguel his daughter and family? That he wants to lighten him up by having him interact with the little kid? It's a no brainer dude.

[@victorsardinia7120]

A new video and about spiderverse i cant wait!

[@ummm385]

I have now realized I am glad I am capable of enjoying a movie without being miserable

[@cheetah2753]

I agree, I think people need to just enjoy things without having to use real world logic

[@shealupkes]

Don't question it, just consume product and then get excited for next product

[@kwayneboy1524]

​@@shealupkesthat's moot you can enjoy some stuff and ask questions but not every grip is a flaw of the film. I can question Batman's character for training Robin but it isn't a flaw of the story or destroys his character.

[@variantgamer9885]

“Professional Nitpicker”

[@EyehatePersona5]

Love your videos Sheev. Keep it up

[@yagamifire7861]

The movie assassinates all the Spider-Men. It's actually impressive

[@seantylerfermin4927]

Sure it does. Keep coping.

[@yagamifire7861]

@seantylerfermin4927 a society of Spider-Men devoted to letting people die is a fundamental assassination of Spider-Mans founding theme

[@christiannoriega428]

​@@yagamifire7861 and if they don't let them die then they effectively just murdered a whole universe. It makes sense why they'd choose that. Peter essentially did that in the insomniac game when he chose not to save May in order to save the city.

[@yagamifire7861]

@christiannoriega428 that is a BAD dilemma to create in the film because now either Miles HAS to be stopped because he's so irresponsible he's risking trillions of lives OR the entire spider society is wrong which means they've been sacrificing lives needlessly. Do you see how shitty that is?

[@christiannoriega428]

@yagamifire7861 I think that's actually why it's a good dilemma. Part of spider-man's story is that he makes mistakes that result in people dying. He learns from them in order to do better. So now either Miles has to learn he is making a big mistake in order to grow into a better spider-man or the spider society changes their methods in order to do the right thing. It seems like a compelling conflict for a spider-man story.

[@nopupils261]

Man I really disliked it when Bugs Bunny jumped and burrowed with is head down. Hello?! This isn't how physics or rabbits work?! They also can't talk so.... that shit aint gonna fly aroung here...

[@TakenWasTakenYT]

Damn bro's spitting facts here

[@dylanhudec979]

He’s not

[@sblinder1978]

Peter B just wants his daughter to accrue experience points from an early age. At this rate she'll ding 60 before she graduates high school

[@AZITHEMLGPRO]

But then how will they sell cute mayday toys?

[@catholicfemininity2126]

Totally agree, I was excited to see how he'd act in the sequel but his character was ruined. He was so scared of being a dad in the first movie, no doubt he be petrified of losing his kid. It'd make more sense if the child somehow follows him through portals somehow while he didn't know or something.

[@jackthegreek6092]

The bathrobe just cemented to me that they don't give a crap about him. Ok. We get it he's a dad. Can he wear the suit NOW! MAYBE!?

[@PrettyboyAshtun]

he would’ve never joined the fight against miles

[@blueboyscout4297]

He's supposed to be a caricature of the overly proud parent: 1. Brings his baby everywhere he goes 2. Shows random pictures of her while she's still there 3. Thinks everyone wants to hold her.

[@shealupkes]

right and mcu peter is a caricature of a teenage iron man fanboy getting superpowers, same problem, just as much character assassination, neither represent the character we've come to love for decades

[@wisdommanari6701]

Cute head Cannon

[@theshadowyparasite9448]

Damn bro that's great, I'll tell that to CPS when I bring my infant daughter along for my parkour vlog.

[@yoyobird8427]

Its a cartoon rrrrEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! feel the power of my caps lock. : D

[@wisdommanari6701]

Unlimited Power

[@REDDAWNproject]

Hot take; I also hate the general plot of this movie, mainly the idea of the necessity of canon events being enforced by spider people with nothing even close to canon events. (ESPECIALLY Ben O'Reilly and Miguel, neither of which have anything close to canon events in the film OR comics) Visually stunning film, mostly terrible narrative IMO. Miles' story in this movie is basically "actually, Kingpin was morally right last movie, but he didn't succeed because he wasn't spiderman"

[@REDDAWNproject]

If anything, peter b parker should be the strongest soldier for the canon events, and guys like miguel and reilly should be against it because they know its not necessary

[@9brightkegan]

​@@REDDAWNprojectTHATS THE POINT the people in charge don't follow the normal cannon that they are hypocrites who let their bad experience affect others Miguel literally says he's not like the other.

[@KenLinx]

I'm 99% sure they made it so he brought his toddler along all the time to counteract the criticism for the other garbage new character in this movie--the black pregnant Spiderwoman. They're trying to make motherhood badass, but at the same time they know it'll be ridiculed, so they tried to normalize these irresponsible actions with a character we actually care about.

[@bob38028]

I don't think her skin color is relevant here but I do agree with your assessment other than that.

[@KenLinx]

@@bob38028 I _do_ think her skin color is relevant here because there're many different Spiderwomen and "black" is a descriptor.

[@bob38028]

@@KenLinx She was the only pregnant person in the movie lol

[@nothingwrong2293]

​​​​​@@bob38028ugh, by that logic a "spiderwoman" also is an unnecessary descriptor, should we call her the pregnant?

[@bob38028]

@@nothingwrong2293 I mean if you don't have a problem with pointing out her melanin that's cool, but I personally don't like it since references to ethnicity or "diversity" are an established bigot dog whistle these days I don't think OP said anything wrong here, but it's not how I would have phrased it.

[@shanouboubou]

Ruined is a strong word, but I also had trouble with how Peter was written in the movie. I was alright with him kind of goofing around in the beginning, but by the time Miguel revealed the whole anomaly thing, Miles (barely) escaped and Gwen got forced back to her dimension I still couldn't believe he was STILL joking around. Though his scene with MJ was incredible - I truly hope we get some sort of explanation for his inaction in all of this in Beyond.