How Dual Destinies Failed Apollo Justice

[@thefranChise1]

The phantom of seven years past has returned

[@Jackhigh92]

What are your thoughts on Apollo in SOJ

[@thefranChise1]

@@Jackhigh92 Great

[@jamesr6959]

Apollo Justice was my first game (when it released) and after that I went back to play the original trilogy. I played through DD for the first time recently and I really think the community over-blows this game’s flaws. I’ve watched a few KZbin vids about the game now and this is the only one that’s delivered a clear and compelling argument about the flaws in this game with actual, constructive, feedback. You’ve really hit the nail on the head! (Seriously, I seldom dislike and skip a video until I’ve watched it to the end, but some of the takes on this game, as well as Ace Attorney-KZbin in general, are garbage!) Great video 😄😄

[@Cosplaybuddygiraffes]

Your suggestion to make Clay a character you meet before his death is great, but it had me thinking- What if that also gave Athena a probable motive to kill him? What if we decide to add in a moment where Clay is trying to solve Ms. Cykes’ murder (either because he also respected her, knew her, etc.) and he actually got close to realizing that Athena turned on the reconstruction machine. Show Athena uncomfortable around Clay, have the small tells on her necklace- a completely darkened face akin to her Black Psyche Locks whenever he’s around her and include a Perceive section where the player as Apollo figures out that Athena is hiding something serious. Not only does this make the player less inclined to disagree with Apollo, but it more naturally develops the uncertainty around Athena.

[@colt1903]

Phoenix: My past is coherent and bittersweet. Athena: My past is coherent and traumatic. Apollo: Yeah, I got like... 3½ different backstories going on in my life and even I'm not totally sure how it all is supposed to make sense. Also, Trucy.

[@thefranChise1]

How to makes sense: I grew up in a another country, then when I was a bit older, I was sent back to an orphanage in the US and one of my classmates wanted to be an astronaut It’s really not that complicated

[@ParrotMan01276]

@@thefranChise1 I took this point to mean that Apollo is "too many cooks in the kitchen" syndrome. You can tell one writer had one idea for him and another writer had a completely different idea for him. They don't exactly mesh the best, despite their efforts though. It is what it is though.

[@diarawisteria2218]

​@@thefranChise1 In theory, it isn't complicated, but the details tend to conflict badly with each other. In DD, Apollo makes Clay out to be someone he cared immensely for and had a strong bond with. He is never alluded to in AJ, and we don't get to see him actually interacting with Clay as an adult. In SoJ, the situation with his biological parents directly conflicts with AJ. Thalassa is noted to have gone back to give her son the bracelet in AJ, but she never had the opportunity to do this in SoJ. Unless I'm mistaken, it's also never implied that she left Troupe Gramarye for any period of time in AJ. Zak and Valant would almost certainly know if she had, given the timing. And lastly, Spark Brushel mentions that Apollo's father had died on stage (this is referred to as "an accident" in the English version, but is not present in the original JP, as I understand it). We don't know what stage or how, but it is extremely unlikely that this was meant to be Amara's residence, given both the previous statements and the clear difference in concepts between AJ and SoJ. The backstory of being raised in Khura'in is a stretch, but still reasonable enough.

[@oyungogdfrust4136]

@@thefranChise1what people mean by “apollo has 4 backstories” i think is that every single game adds a different phase of his life that wasnt mentioned at all in the previous games, complicating it unnecessarily. its like if, on game 2, after dl6 was revealed in edgeworth’s past they decided to add more and more incidents he lived through until you can no longer keep track

[@danieldavid3766]

Technically, Phoenix also has two backstories, one being tacked on later: the class trial and his history with Dahlia. Same can be said with Maya, who has the DL-6 Incident and Morgan and Misty’s rivalry. It does _feel_ more coherent but not in a way I can explain. What makes this feel any different when it’s really the same circumstance?

[@iloveallrats5553]

I love Athena and Blackquill, but I would trade away Dual Destinies in a heartbeat if it meant a true Apollo Justice sequel building off Apollo, Trucy and the Gavins’ stories

[@anapellatrig]

bro, i love these two too and i am absolutely agreed!

[@yusifudo46]

Well after the epilogue of Spirit of Justice, the game after Dual Destinies, it looks like that's going to be the next PW game's focus.

[@xord6286]

Klavier was boring and Kristoph was too petty like Manfred von Karma was petty but he was a perfectionist and was fairly intimidating Kristoph was just "waaah this guy didn't choose me" and I don't mind a petty villain but Kristoph was just so eh to me, also they spoiled his reappearance in the intro cutscence of the 4th case

[@Magicmike758]

Or better yet, let them release a sequel so Apollo can finish his story as a Gramarye.

[@ajc1476]

Dual destinies should have been AA7 without apollo, after the apollo trilogy was completed

[@MadMunky20k]

If I'm not mistaken, the dev team for Ace Attorney 5 and 6 has a "no spoilers" policy for writing their cases. They refuse to call back to previous events or acknowledge moments of growth characters have gone through, which in a series as dependent on its story as Ace Attorney, doesn't pan out too well.

[@onesonicguy]

…I’m sorry? Are you serious?

[@TheWaterMiners]

You're mistaken

[@MadMunky20k]

@@onesonicguy Yes.

[@henrynelson9301]

That’s kind of understandable if they were going for a soft reboot

[@ebicbarton]

@Laura UK I mean no ace attorney game gives details on any other games final case

[@Hat_Cola]

Giving Phoenix his badge back makes sense, but we shouldn’t have played as him. If they truly wanted to make Athena as well they could, but having 2 protags instead of 3 is much better to handle (like trials and tribulations).

[@E05_Mabashi]

I was always mad at this decision, Phoenix was PERFECT as a mentor character, the first one died and had to keep coming back as a ghost, the other one was a villain and the rest were one offs in flashbacks. As much as I enjoy Maya, Ema, Trucy and other assistants, they were kids and it never made much sense to me. Phoenix as a mentor character to Apollo and Athena in trials just sounds so good and we did get a taste of it in the final case on AA6. And it was great. I will never stop being bitter about this.

[@kindasleepyzzzz]

actually, t&t has 3 playable protags (mia, phoenix and miles). they just handled them much better than dd.

[@stefaniemika7765]

I'm realizing that the reason I love Clay is due to fanfictions imagining his character because you're absolutely right, the game really gives you nothing about him. I also think it's funny because even if there are parts of AA4 people didn't like (Serenade), Apollo himself has a lot of fans that love him. They could've and should've kept building on his character.

[@Hero_My_Beloved]

As an Apollo Justice fan, I've been shot on the foot multiple times while playing aa5 and aa6. Although, and I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, I really like the backstories they gave him! (Even though they barely make sense, and barely connect w/ the story... Tbh they could've fleshed them out a bit...)

[@Hugelag]

I remember first playing Dual Destinies after borrowing the original trilogy from my library. I hadn't played Apollo Justice since someone had stolen it, so I didn't really know much about him. I remember enjoying the game, not know what happened in the last one. Looking back, however, Apollo definitely got disrespected. They straight up said "you can't use your bracelet in court that's cheating lol" which I kinda have to disagree with when the prosecution can just say "lol no you're wrong" and that's entirely fine. On a side note, I remember Phoenix introduced the jury system and it was nowhere to be seen, so I'm wondering what happened to that point. It really does feel like they made this game with intent to cater to fans of the original trilogy and not AJ fans. I remember it being hyped up as "Phoenix's grand return to the courtroom and a new face in the agency." I can understand a bit why Apollo got pushed to the sidelines, but they didn't have to do him like that. I am glad Apollo got his spotlight in Spirit of Justice because hoo boy, does he shine, but I'm eagerly waiting that essay.

[@MiyaoMeow588]

I think it was implied somewhere that the jury system was dropped was because it itself had it's own problems. I think it was only ever meant to be a test run anyway.

[@TheMorlun]

@@MiyaoMeow588 Phoenix DID basically proved the weakness of jury system by pushing the defense's mom on it.

[@freezeburn9875]

It's strange that he calls the bracelet cheating but the Mood Matrix is fine

[@Mr.bluer9999]

@@freezeburn9875 Yeah,I hate Simon Blackquill so much,He's a typical double standard, just cares all about Athena.

[@CMW003]

I adamantly believe giving phoenix his badge back (at least as early as dual destinies) is the biggest mistake the series made and that a dual destinies with just apollo and athena as lawyers would be infinitely better. Like what if apollo had to defend athena in the last case despite being highly doubtful of her innocence? You could even get apollo against edgeworth or bring klavier back for the final case

[@Klonoahedgehog]

What they should have done is wait till like halfway through the sixth game to give Phoenix his badge back, that way Apollo could actually have some growth and we have build up for Phoenix's inevitable rise from the ashes.

[@SSL_2004]

I would agree, But to be honest even with Phoenix's badge back the story could have been salvaged if it was executed better. The worst part about Dual Destinies' story is the order. The 1st case happens in the middle of the 4th, then we get an entirely irrelevant second case set in the far past, then the third case, then The first half of the 4th which doesn't even have an investigation, then we flash back to the 1st, and get the second half of the 4th, And finally we get the fifth, But in the middle of the 5th Apollo shows up to explain what happened just prior to the 4th. Why is it so unnecessarily convoluted? Ace attorney games have time jumped before but they always do it when the information that they're flashing back to is relevant going forward. Dual destinies actively chooses to avoid telling you information just to tell you later, And tells you other information that you absolutely do not need to know yet. Like, You meet Juniper in the first case, she's your defendant and everything, But then you're INTRODUCED to Juniper in the 3rd, Also as your defendant. Which makes it weird that she never talked about that experience in the 1st. The order should have been. The Monstrous Turnabout (Shorten it to one day, properly introduces Athena so it works better as a tutorial anyway) Turnabout Academy (Here we're properly introduced to Juniper when she's actually introduced and the theme of the game is established. Instead of just mentioning Clay once not even by name actually give him an appearance.) Cosmic Turnabout (Have a goddamn investigation segment. Could potentially start with Apollo and Athena being there for the launch when the explosion happens, would give us one last interaction with Clay, and make the death feel more sudden and impactful. Shorten the vanilla trial to one day, then the second half is the vanilla Turnabout Countdown.) Turnabout for Tomorrow (Can mostly stay as it is [Even if I think it's questionably written on its own]. But for the sake of this fever dream, Apollo defends the case despite his confliction, and Klavier prosecutes it. I love Edgeworth but he didn't need to be here.)

[@jedimasterpickle3]

Sounds like you'd like The Adventure of the Runaway Room from The Great Ace Attorney Adventures. That case has you defend someone you're unsure of their innocence.

[@CMW003]

@@jedimasterpickle3 yeah I do but that defendant is a guy you've just met who's quite shady as opposed to if you were playing as apollo in 5-5 where he/you'd be doubtful of an established friend character who you've actually played as and know

[@jedimasterpickle3]

@@CMW003 Gotcha. Yeah I agree with that.

[@henrynelson9301]

“Beautiful mess” is a great way to describe the entire 4-6 trilogy when you think about it. Not to imply these games are bad, they’re all still great.

[@Klonoahedgehog]

As individual games maybe, but as one whole like Great ace attorney and the Phoenix wright trilogy it completely falls apart.

[@hectorandrade8729]

"a beautiful mess" is a great way to describe the entire series

[@jedimasterpickle3]

4-6 is not a trilogy. Those are just 3 games in a series. "Trilogy" implies some level of continuity that Dual Destinies discarded.

[@henrynelson9301]

@@jedimasterpickle3 it’s still unofficially called a trilogy in the loosest sense by some fans, because they’re the only other mainline games.

[@jedimasterpickle3]

@@henrynelson9301 Key word "unofficially". It's not like the first 3 games which have a clear progression and continuity between them. I haven't played Spriit of Justice so I have to ask: does it build on Dual Destinies in any way? Because if not, then it's not remotely a trilogy. It's just 3 games.

[@MewslyGirl]

If you take DD on its own I think its a pretty good game. I really like Athena and Simon and that story! But I remember the first time playing it being disappointed because I wanted Apollo Justice 2 and thats just not what DD is. I know AA4 wasn't super well received (even tho its my personal favorite ngl) but giving it a good sequel to expand on it would have probably helped a lot.

[@Rukalin]

I gotta admit something here: For the monstrous turnabout I thought for the longest time that Fulbright was the killer. It's a very similar mistake to one I made in the first game where I was convinced throughout the whole first case that Winston Payne was the killer, my memory of the opening cutscene's image was so awful I just thought it was them instead.

[@Magicmike758]

But why. Of all people... would Winston Payne be a killer?!?! (I know you said you went based off of memory here but I just added this as a general question as you know, just because) But with Fulbright I can agree with, haven't seen all of Dual Destinies yet and I'm somehow convinced that he is an antagonist... somewhat.

[@Rukalin]

@@Magicmike758 Iunno, it was the first case of the first game, I went in expecting shenanigans right away.

[@Magicmike758]

@@Rukalin Oh that makes sense.

[@CFlandre]

I think I would have not included Phoenix Wright in the sequel trilogy. Apparently, during the development of Apollo Justice, Shu Takumi wanted to leave PW behind and create a new protagonist, along with a new story. Effectively a soft reboot. Capcom eventually had to force Takumi to put PW into the game because of Phoenix's status as the series mascot. If Takumi had his way, I think we might have had a much better game, and the subsequent games would have had to focus on Apollo's character.

[@colt1903]

Takumi, like a lot of developers, should have just told them "fuck off, my way or no way" God, the Japanese are too damn nice sometimes.

[@SheepOfChaos]

@@colt1903 No, most likely the answere would have been "Then no way, kk thx bye" and no more Ace Attorney main series games. This is not a star AAA frenchise from Capcom, if it causes trouble it will get cut. Takumi was nice to us fans and his team to say "okay, I'll work this out".

[@colt1903]

@@SheepOfChaos Then let it get cut. If you someone is going to force you to do something different from your original vision for no other reason than "blah blah shut your fucking mouth and make us money" then there's no point in making it. Eventually you'll even end up hating the thing you're making and then literally no one wins.

[@speedforce8970]

@@colt1903 capcom was kinda right though, great ace attorney didn't make much money when it released probably because it didn't have pheonix wright. That's why the second game had such a low budget.

[@elsie8757]

@@colt1903 Or they could've put Phoenix in the game, but gone about it in an entirely different way.

[@liesebeam8910]

I believe that the dumb yokai case couldve been much better if it was a case for phoenix and trucy (or athena and trucy but ill get into that). Phoenix and Trucys relationship is one of the most essential parts of AA4, and its barely mentioned here. Even when she gets fucking kidnapped. The emotional center of this case could be easily turned to jinxie and her father, and they could parallel Phoenix and trucy and really delve into how they've been since nick got his badge back. Its always bothered me that Trucy introduces you to her best friend and when her dad is arrested she fucks off completely. By shifting the focus of this case to Phoenix and trucy, it makes Phoenix more of a character (by how he interacts with his daughter) and trucy a better character (showing how much she cares for her friends). Alternatively, if you gave the case to Athena and had Trucy be the assistant you could make it so that in each case Athena really gets to know a member of the WAA, which makes her arrest even sadder. (Though that would mean youd have to give turnabout academy to apollo which wouldnt really work because the crux of that case was athenas relationship with juniper, so it wouldnt work very well). I guess in general AA5 isn't really a game Apollo cleanly fits into. Such a shame, he's a great character.

[@OExplosion]

The Great Ace Attorney has a victim that ties back to the main cast that was a total “oh shit!” moment because we spent time with them and it feels like it comes completely out of nowhere. Thats what you are suppose to do to make me care about deaths that affect the main characters. Have us spend time with them.

[@inkterstellar]

SPOILERS FOR TGAA Seriously! It only took ONE case to establish said victim, and everyone was devastated when they died. The writers easily made Ryuunosuke feel close to them. It helps that the victim was introduced right when Ryuunosuke himself was, but still. It’d be so easy to make Clay endearing (and his death meaningful) by just at least having him have a small appearance.

[@vb8133]

@@inkterstellar TGAA2 spoilers Not gonna lie I thought the comment was referring to Gregson so actually TGAA did this twice

[@Omeyrolx_theChessmaster]

@@vb8133 I thought the same thing you did. ^^;

[@Hero_My_Beloved]

SPOILERS FOR TGAA2 poor Greggy :((

[@tiffanyrose775]

Apollo Justice was my favorite ace attorney game, and playing DD and SOJ just felt insulting. While I adore adore ADORE Simon and Nahyuta and Athena, it just…. Stings. Klavier deserved more of an arc and time to grieve, not to have another one of his loved ones killed. Yet again, love the new characters to death, but it still stings.

[@colt1903]

Hopefully the next game actually gives us what we want. Also, you are the first person I've ever seen that says they like Nahyuta.

[@deorodant_oh-one6875]

I think the more supernatural they go the worse the series becomes. And that comes from somebody who likes Apollo Justice the best out of all the games. AJ had some supernatural mumbo jumbo it just becomes somewhat distant to me I don't want to play a Tolkien book or a fantasy game. It was more subtle in the previous three from my vague memories and it was ok as long as they maintained that delicate balance but ever since AJ and beyond hoo boy they went full anime.

[@colt1903]

@@deorodant_oh-one6875 ... Phoenix cross examined a bird. The series was always anime as hell.

[@WeatherReportsHat]

@@deorodant_oh-one6875 AA has always been supernatural. Maya was channeling the dead in the first game and Phoenix preforms and exorcism in T&T.

[@basilgum]

Yeah, I think you touched on the three main problems with DD: the lack of continuity from AA4, the multiple protagonists, and the confusing out-of-order storytelling. While I would have loved a game focused solely on Apollo again, I do think the writing team had a good idea with making him more of a lancer character. A lancer character needs a protagonist to lance, though, and that's why Apollo's arc falls so short among the other reasons you mentioned. Unfortunately DD couldn't stick to its guns in regards to who the protagonist is. Everything's set up for Athena to take center stage, but her entire goal and motivation gets surrendered to Phoenix so that he can save Blackquill for her, which was honestly pretty insulting to her character imo. I like your suggestion of a day one investigation for the final cases a lot, especially the idea of it being from Apollo's perspective so we can build tension with Athena's involvement in the case and see an alive Clay at least long enough for the audience to give a shit about his death. I certainly love Dual Destinies and a lot of its ideas, but it's probably the hardest game of the series for me to get behind.

[@ParrotMan01276]

You hit the nail on the head with this one. I HAAATED this game when I first played it and the second case of this game is without question the worst one. There's just a bunch of basic mistakes that this game makes writing wise, the telling rather than showing as well completely ignoring Apollo Justice...both the game and almost the character. I haven't softened much on this game or Spirit of Justice either. They're both bloated and a mess. They juggle too many protagonists and I've never been a fan of Athena's mood matrix mechanic. It's far too easy and boils down to digital bop-it in my opinion. There's also the fact that the first 3D games in the series, not counting the Layton spin-off, don't do anything interesting with the camera. Compare the camera work and animations in DD and SJ to The Great Ace Attorney games or the Layton spin-off. It's night and day, which is why I found the aesthetics in DD/SJ rather bland in comparison. The reason AJ: Ace Attorney is the way it is I suspect because it is unfinished. It only has 4 cases, it came out around the time Capcom was notoriously slashing budgets and rushing games out the door, and after it came out Shu basically resolved to do spin-offs exclusively. Something tells me there was a lot more that he wanted to do, but the higher ups wouldn't let him and he became a bit jaded and found himself working on other things. Extremely similar things, but he never touched the main series again. I don't have proof of this other than the feeling of how rushed AJ: AA is, the length of it, and how it came out at that period of time, but I think it's a solid theory. I know I'm late on this, but The Great Ace Attorney 1 and 2 are by far some of the best games in the series, if not the best. I loved these two games.

[@WebbedManiac]

Hmm, your video made me realize something: Ace Attorney 4 (Apollo Justice) really should've been Ace Attorney 5. My reasoning for this is as follows: Compare Apollo's first game to Phoenix's first game. In AA1, we not only get to know Phoenix really well, but we also get a really solid backstory from him. This backstory not only explains why he does what he does, but also connects him to Edgeworth and the Fey clan, all of which culminates spectacularly in the final case where you take down Von Karma, the source of all the problems of the game. Now let's look at Apollo's game. In AA4, all we get from Apollo is that he's a funny, quirky, lawyer dude who believes in justice. That's it. Yes, there's sort of a backstory present here with the Gramaryes and whatnot, but that doesn't explain his motivations at all. Why does he do what he does? What does he want? The backstory only tells us who Apollo's mother and sister are, and he doesn't even know about them. That information doesn't impact the story at all. So it's no use other than explaining where his powers come from. Let's talk about the tutorial case of the game. While it is very cool to see Wright big-braining it to catch the real killer, that still comes at the cost of Apollo's character. Wright is essentially running the whole trial, and Apollo is there solely because Wright can't stand at the defence bench. *Let me repeat that.* Apollo is present not of his own volition, but solely because he is convenient to Wright. Phoenix CHOSE his first case; Apollo's was FORCED UPON him. Your main character has no agency in his own game. He's just the proxy of the previous protagonist. That is not a trait you want your main character to have. Wright just saw Apollo at Gavin's office, found out that he was a Gramarye, and thought "Huh, I can use him". He puppeteers him for his own ends (catching Kristoph) and leaves him on his own for the cases which aren't worth anything to him (like the Wocky Kitaki trial). Even Kristoph's takedown in the final trial is not done by Apollo, it is done by Phoenix. Apollo is using the evidence Phoenix collected, he's using the Jurist System which Phoenix built. Hell, he says so himself (which is what causes Kristoph's breakdown). Speaking of Kristoph, let's talk about him. Why is it that Apollo has no reaction to his mentor being convicted? Hell, why does Klavier have no reaction to HIS BROTHER being convicted? Can you imagine Phoenix having no reaction if Mia was convicted of murder? Of course not. That's insane. And yet, that's exactly what happens here. Apollo supposedly worked under "the best defence attorney around" for years, and yet when Wright shows up and shatters his whole world (rather cruelly, I might add) he says nothing? An Apollo Justice game between AA3 and AA4 solves all of these problems. Have this game be completely free of Phoenix's influence. Build a backstory for Apollo, which actually influences his path. Have Wright pick him because he watched Apollo's prowess in one of his trials, not because he just saw him at Gavin's office and figured out he was Thalassa's son. This way, Wright picking him of all people becomes a result of Apollo's own actions, not just dumb luck. Present Kristoph as a lovable and kind mentor much like Mia, and have him and Apollo build a relationship throughout the game. That way, when Phoenix takes Kristoph down in the second Apollo Justice, it isn't just heartbreaking for Apollo, but the player too. Then have Phoenix reveal Apollo's connection with Lamiroir and Trucy. Sadly we didn't get that game, and I'm making myself sad just talking about it.

[@_KristophGavin]

I agree. The lack of reactions from Apollo and Klavier about Kristoph is absolutely disappointing. The only thing we got was Klavier initially acting rude towards Apollo during the second case *because* he set his older brother behind the bars. Later there's literally nothing until Kristoph walks in the courtroom and manipulates his younger brother. It's a large void that should be filled properly. Not talking that Klavier and Apollo should talk about Kristoph at least once. Hell, they were the closest people Kristoph had and vice versa. Klavier and Apollo could talk about the reasons why they decided to become lawyers and maybe we could get a backstory for the Gavin brothers.

[@dannykazari]

I didn't realize how much I needed a video like this to fully articulate why I didn't like AA5 as much. At least AA6 *tried* to round out Apollo.

[@eleonoraortu9378]

Yes, finally someone that acknowledge how shitty monstrous turnabout was. It took me ages to get over that case

[@yamitenshi5901]

I wanna also add how they did Klavier dirty, it was already bad how little importance they gave him in his own game (AJ), even when he's the main villain's brother, just for the sake of Phoenix doing everything, but Dual Destinies just ignored any developement he had in AJ. His bandmate and friend was found guilty of murder and smuggling, he discovered his brother was actually a psycopath, both of those things, clearly, were really hard for him. He disolved the band to take prosecution more seriously, he explicitly said he wasn't gonna play Guitar Serenade ever again. What did Dual Destinies do? They made him play that exact song, without any explanation about his change of mind, they made him act, exactly, as he acted at the beginning of AJ, as if nothing really happened, although the case was about the murder of a woman who, supposedly, was Klavier's mentor and someone really important to him, but he was as carefree as always. In JFA, you can see the impact the first game had on Edgeworth, you can see how he changed, how he has another mentality, how he isn't the same as he was at the start of the first game. In DD, Klavier reverts to the Klavier of the second case of AJ, and just for an irrelevant cameo that wasn't even necessary. Klavier's my favorite prosecutor, but I'd rather he didn't appeared in DD than the cameo they gave him. Tbh, I don't know what's AA's problem with Klavier postAJ, it feels like they don't want him appear in games and they just make him make cameos so they can say he didn't forgot about him, he didn't even appeared in DD's credits, even Payne appears on those.

[@eightcoins4401]

What really baffles me about DD is how the dlc bonus episode is better written than the main plot

[@NaokiP72]

Ace Attorney Apollo Justice might just be my favorite game alongside Trials and Tribulations in this series, so playing through Dual Destinies just kinda hurt with how dirty they did Apollo and Trucy, and Phoenix's whole development as a character in 4, and all the plot twists and points in that game just taking a backseat to whatever DD was doing. I still haven't finished SoJ but so far I haven't been terribly impressed by it either

[@sliceninja4546]

Honestly they should have made athena go on her own adventure that was in the same universe but anything related to phoenix and apollo is gone

[@henrynelson9301]

She just needs her own game tbh

[@pickleioi9058]

I agree with the points made here, but I think DD was meant to be a standalone Ace Attorney for the 3DS rather than an AJ sequel.

[@mntp3185]

But it still is AA 5. You can't make the fifth entry in the mainline and just not follow up on the fourth.

[@eightcoins4401]

@@mntp3185 Alot of franchises do that though. Some straight up reboot each number entry. Shin Megami Tensei comes to mind

[@mendlez2306]

Which is exactly the problem, AA:AJ for the DS was designed to be the first chapter of a new saga

[@ericgropuis]

I really enjoyed Apollo Justice Ace Attorney and enjoyed Apollo as a character and was ready to see more of Trucy and Klavier. As much as I like Athena she really takes away from Apollo by simply existing and having her story be front and center along with Phoenix coming back to be a lawyer. As much as I like Athena she is one of the major problems for stunting Apollo, because they added Athena and made her story a major focus they made Trucy basically nonexistent when she is Apollo’s assistant, no more Klavier because Simon (Who I’m not a big fan off I just don’t find him as interesting as other) Klavier is probably my favorite prosecutor and is a great rival to Apollo I just Iove their courtroom battles. Also because of Athena you have Mood Matrix which I do enjoy but I really love perceive as it gives you a reason to look at the poses of the witness and try and figure out which one of their lie pose and only really works as a courtroom mechanic and not an investigation mechanic. I don’t really see the need to try and make a grand backstory for Apollo, Nick had a simple one with Miles, Larry and Mia giving him his reasons for wanting to become an attorney. Athena has a dark gruesome one why can’t Apollo just have a simple one. They already established he had a mom who disappeared and he looked up to Nick and really looked up to his mentor Kristoph and they could have worked with that but now they want to just give him this best friend who we didn’t know before and had no time to get to know because he’s dead on arrival and I just started playing Spirit of Justice and just learned he grew up with the main prosecutor of that game which makes me question how did he get from Thalassa to growing up in a different country to coming to America to be friends with this random kid and visit a space station alot to working for Kristoph. Just could have kept it short and simple. I feel like if you just didn’t focus that much on Athena so either make her the main bench partner since she’s brand new to being an attorney at a young age and just have her learn from Nick and Apollo before stepping out on her own, Apollo was stated to be at the bench watching alot of Kristoph’s cases before getting a shot by Nick to be the main defense OR you could have wanted for a future game to introduce Athena because I would still love to have her around but not at the cost of Apollo’s second appearance. I’m not sure if my opinion will change in the future or after I finish Spirit of Justice but this is where I stand rn.

[@lyzhongo5766]

Did your opinion change?

[@ericgropuis]

@@lyzhongo5766 It didn’t sadly, Apollo’s whole backstory in Spirit of Justice was really out of nowhere only thing I really enjoyed was the civil trial between Apollo and Phoenix where you get to see them match each other in court. I was not a huge fan of a lot of stuff in that game

[@Quaelandys]

so glad to see Ace Attorney content, despite this specific topic being already a popular one

[@calsbag5264]

imo dd and soj would have been okay, even mostly unchanged, if they had just been in reverse order. we would've gotten more backstory and character development with apollo, and gotten to see him face off against phoenix in the civil trial, which would be a nice payoff coming right after aa4. then after that, there would be an excuse for apollo being mostly absent in the next game-- because he would be busy helping reforms in khurain. then there would be good reason for adding a new character, with the WAA needing a new lawyer, and focusing more on athena would make sense. you could even still bring apollo back briefly as a result of clay's death if you really wanted to. but alas.

[@CheesyDale]

As much as I love the series as a whole, I think they're just trying to hard to appeal the fans after the poor reception of Apollo Justice that the next games felt a lot like spin offs

[@DefinitivNichtSascha]

You didn't mention it once in the entire video, which just shows how irrelevant it really is, despite being hyped up as the central looming conflict of the entire game: The Dark Age of the Law. They say it's there and that it was caused by Phoenix getting disbarred (the one bloody time they do actually reference Apollo Justice's events) and then it's just gone at the end of Dual Destinies. They say the Dark Age of the Law has caused lawyers to resort to underhanded tricks such as forging evidence and manipulating witnesses when this very thing has always been the case in this franchise. In essence, the Dark Age of the Law-narrative does not do anything for this game at all. Now, you would one "fix" Dual Destinies? I've asked myself this a couple of times before, and I've got some rough ideas, actually. First, don't give Phoenix his badge back. He doesn't need to be playable. But he also doesn't need to be Hobo Phoenix again. What do we do with him then? We make him a professor of law at Themis. This ties quite nicely into Turnabout Academy while also giving Phoenix something to do with law that isn't actually practising law. But Phoenix still likes to help people, and he still owns Wright Anything Agency, so he takes cases and lets Apollo solve them while also hiring Athena to help him out. He can help investigate, but he can't go to trial. This also makes it so that Athena doesn't get completely shafted by Phoenix in Turnabout Countdown. I hate how she's introduced as a new attorney just for Phoenix to take the case from her like half an hour in. Let the man be a mentor, it works fine enough. Now, with Phoenix being a professor at the academy, this plants seeds of doubt in Apollo after Turnabout Academy. He wonders if Phoenix also teaches students to resort to tactics such as Aristotle Means. After all, he'd done so before in Turnabout Trump. Then the entire thing with Athena comes up in the Cosmic Turnabout and boom, he's got a reason to doubt everything. Though for Turnabout for Tomorrow, Apollo really has to defend Athena (because nobody else can, as Phoenix is still disbarred) even though he doubts her. And instead of Edgeworth appearing out of nowhere just for fanservice, this final trial could be Klavier's moment to shine and take his place. Maybe give some encouragement to Apollo and helping him find the real truth behind it all. So in essence, this case would become Apollo's very own version of Farewell, my Turnabout. And I'm not sure if the game then even still needs Clay Terran to be important to Apollo. He pretty much has enough stakes in this story by that point. Also, don't shoot me for this, but I think the Monstrous Turnabout is fine. It's filler, sure, but I don't mind it all that much. The worst thing it does is introducing Jinxie Tenma as a friend of Trucy's and then never have Trucy show up ever again, not even the very end of the case when Damien Tenma is found innocent. Sometimes I just forget that Trucy is in the game, she does not do anything at all. And it's not like Ace Attorney cannot handle multiple established characters in one case at once. Bridge to the Turnabout gives Edgeworth, Gumshoe, Franziska, Pearl, Maya, Godot, and even Larry something to do, so why can't Dual Destinies use Trucy in a meaningful way?

[@axolofa]

Cut the Monstrous Turnabout and give us a case with Apollo and Clay interacting

[@NeatChill]

The yokai case just annoys me in general due to how ungrounded from reality it is. It feels hard to care about any of the characters when we constantly talk about monsters and demons as if they’re actually real (yes ok spirits exist but still) and it just comes across as overly silly and not to be taken seriously.. which is a real shame considering it’s Apollos only real case as the controllable character here. Also the writer should have known that revealing the villain is usually reserved for case 1, due to it being a tutorial case. There was absolutely no reason for the villain to be revealed so early. It’s likely that because they enjoyed putting in anime cutscenes to try and impress the players they just went overboard putting too many plot revealing cutscenes in…

[@MoreColtraneChanges]

I’m one of the few people that actually really likes AA4 (Yes, including 4-3. 4-2 was ass tho), so this entire video felt cathartic. It sucks because I like parts of AA5 and especially AA6, but I will never forgive them for ruining what AA4 set up. Phoenix’s character being absolutely destroyed, including his disgusting treatment of his daughter, is the by far the biggest tragedy in my opinion.

[@yocyber5711]

what do you mean by disgusting treatment of his daughter? What did Phoenix do?

[@diegordi1394]

Telling her he didn't care about her Mr. Hat magic trick in that AJ in a Nutshell video, although that was before he officially adopted her.

[@Whirlwhind1]

It's quite evident that the cast got pretty crowded in DD and SoJ. Apollo and Trucy got sidelined pretty hard in DD and in SoJ they clearly had no idea what to do with Athena. While I'm at it, Klavier deserved better.

[@mario-pan]

Change Clay for Klavier, and been a "I lost my rival" I think that would make it very interesting, but I don't know if Klavier even appears in justice for all

[@ebicbarton]

Justice for All? Do you mean Dual Destinies? Anyway, he shows up in Turnabout Academy but he doesn't do much.

[@mario-pan]

@@ebicbarton My bad and thanks

[@howisthis8849]

0:31 turnabout serenade lmfao

[@xxProjectJxx]

No other game in the series is as convoluted and unfocused as Dual Destinies. There are good elements in there somewhere, but it's too messy to let them shine.

[@Tasoq]

My favourite thing about Dual Destinies is Simon Blackquill. Seriously though, I totally agree with what you're saying. Knowing nothing about Clay, other than him being Apollo's friend, just felt like any other case. Like, how sad this person is dead, but I know nothing about them so I don't care. Heck, even in the first game with Mia, you interact with her a small amount in that first case and her death still hits you hard. I like what you were pointing out that having that first investigation and experiencing Apollo reacting to Athena potentially lying would have added so much more to the tension in that case.

[@TheGreatPM1]

In my opinion, Dual Destinies is the best game in the series imo. It has a ton of loveable characters, a fantastic antagonist, a compelling story and banger music however I always found the lack of focus for Apollo to be an issue. Now I want to state a bit of a controversial opinion, the writer trying to write of what happened in Apollo Justice isn't a bad idea and the reason why is because of how the events of the game could literally destroy the series imo, we have the Dark Age of The Law which was so stupid because the person that caused it had one of the worst motives i've ever heard, Phoenix losing his badge because of forged evidence felt so forced and the way they stopped Kristoph is as stupid as 1-2 where Mia basically lets you win for not knowing how to flip a piece of paper. They did the entire game so dirty so when they did stuff like stopped the Dark Age of The Law by stopping the Phantom, giving Phoenix his badge back and had the game focus on Phoenix, Apollo and Athena, I was really happy because we didn't need to deal with the nonsense that is Apollo Justice the game. Look, I understand that even if something is established whether it is good or not needs to be expanded upon, I mean I feel the same because I feel like cases need to last 3 days again however you have to understand that writing something around that and expanded upon it is a risky move especially if the writer thinks that the established stuff in question is bad, so much that they had to write an entirely new story. I understand to those that think that they should've expanded upon that stuff but you can't blame the writer for wanting to do so, I personally think that it's an amazing decision that they did that however one thing that they shouldn't have done is sidelined the Apollo Justice characters. One of the biggest issues with Apollo Justice is that Apollo himself is sidlined by Phoenix himself and it felt like anything that Apollo did had no meaning to anything whatsoever. And one of the positives that I can give the game are the characters, Apollo is fine in his own game, Trucy has a ton of charm although isn't as good as Maya and Kay, Klavier is a different breath of fresh air for prosecutors and I love it and I don't like the rest lol. However in Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice, we made Apollo an entirely different character and him having like 3 backstories, Trucy feeling as important as Ahlbi from Spirit of Justice and Klavier making a small cameo although I did like the appearance. They shouldn't have done that, while I understand the decision to move away from Apollo Justice, at least focus on the characters. The game felt more like Phoenix and Athena's game and while I like those two and think that it's not a bad idea to focus on them for Dual Destinies especially after learning what they did to them in Spirit of Justice but the game is supposed to be about Phoenix, APOLLO and Athena so all three of them needed the focus. And even now I wonder why the Apollo Justice Trilogy has Dual Destinies in it, but then we get to Spirit of Justice and I have to ask how they managed to make it seem like Apollo is both underutilized and overulitized. Seriously that is an accomplishment in itself because Apollo doesn't appear as much as he should yet when he appears, suddenly everyone gets pushed to the side in favor of Apollo, Nahyuta and Rayfa which I hate. Rayfa appearing so much in the investigations is why I don't like her so much as she got annoying for me, Nahyuta is underrated and honestly a really good character but did Case 4 had to be necessary and while I like Apollo, it's not a good thing that I only started to like him around the end of the game. I hate that everyone else got sidelined, Athena basically became a side character, Ahlbi could've been a new version of Pearl but after the 1st trial, he became useless. Seriously I like the kid and I don't think he should be a main character but at least let him so something other than providing one piece of evidence and being pushed aside because we need more Rayfa, Trucy did have a case based on her which is great but not enough, Klavier didn't even appear at all, not even a mention nor a cameo, out of everywhere they put him in the Asanine Attorney, hell even Phoenix got sidelined around Case 5 and overall they did Apollo dirty.

[@Tosnoob]

After getting both the Phoenix Wright and Apollo Justice remaster trilogies on Steam I steamed through the first four games like a breeze until I get to Dual Destinies. That yokai case was enough to make me quit and hate my time through it. Thank you for verbalising the things I couldn't put my finger on.

[@Iazibones]

How can you call the monstrous turnabout the worst when the kidnapped turnabout exists

[@thefranChise1]

That case is somehow better

[@Iazibones]

@@thefranChise1 atleast monstrous turnabout has a few likeable characters

[@jackleonard2240]

DD is my least favorite game in the series for basically all of the reasons you say. I was a big fan of AJ, and so to see them not run with that intriguing set up was dissapointing to say the least. I agree that DD-2 might be the worst case in the series. But I think what caused me to be unable to enjoy it, unlike every other game in the series is that the “themes” are very heavy handed. Most of the other games are at least a little subtle, especially with the later games by Shu like TGAA and AJ. DD on the other hand literally repeats slogans to you

[@professoraristotlemeans8860]

so basically you have no reason to live?

[@xord6286]

I think Monstrous Turnabout is poorly written but is it as bad as Turnabout "let's have three grown men openly fawn over a teenage girl with the mentality of a 4 year old" Big Top or The Adventure of "let's have a lady abusing her disabled war veteran husband by throwing knifes and pouring hot tea on him and act like it's a quirky tragic romance" the Clouded Kokoro? I'm not against dark themes in media but those two examples did not handle the subject well at all imo, at least 3-4 acknowledged that the relationship was creepy

[@elsie8757]

DUDE. YES. ALL OF THIS. THANK YOU.

[@KatTheLavaGirl]

3:38 SOMEONE FINALLY SAYS IT

[@HyperGirl81]

Maybe it would have been better if Apollo had decided not to go back to being a defense attorney but decided to stick to his guns and become a prosecutor? Sure, it would impact the ending in Ace Attorney 6, but it would give his a character a chance to start over and decide his own path Plus, having a prosecutor that can use the perceive ability on defense attorneys and witnesses is scary just as much as Blackquill and Shadi's mind tricks.

[@benl.4577]

I remember after finishing the entire DS ace attorney saga, then seeing the Dual Destinies trailer as a kid, I went NUTS. I was insanely hyped for Phoenix' comeback, the new attorney Athena, and Apollo's continuation. I didn't have a 3ds at the time, so I wasn't able to play it for a long time. Then I got one, and you bet your ass I got Dual Destinies first. Then i finished it in less than a week, and it was unbearably mid. Up to this point, I can tell you each detail of my favorite cases in trials and tribulations, but I literally cannot tell you a single detail from the cases in Dual Destinies. I kept saying "YO WHERE TF IS GUMSHOE????". 4/10 a very mid sequel to a very memorable part of my childhood.

[@sorendipitous]

Apollo Justice failed Apollo Justice.

[@SoftwareNeos]

And then we got Spirit of Justice that goes into Apollos backstory.... I dont like it too much.

[@Isrialith]

I think the problem with Spirit of Justice is that it gives Apollo more tragic backstory when he's already got plenty of tragedy. At some point it becomes too much and people stop comparing.

[@cadmiz]

Justice already has too many backstories

[@Klonoahedgehog]

@@Isrialith I also feel like the backstory was only done to justify bringing Maya back, since he's tied to Khurain just like her.

[@weewoo3023]

What we need is a new Apollo game with a flashback case defending clay terran

[@Koyasama]

It's a lot easier to understand if you look at the big picture and understand Apollo as the Scrappy of the AA franchise. He had no background whatsoever, and his intro game wasn't even really about him--he was the player's stand-in to observe and puzzle over Phoenix, a la Watson watching Holmes--so his personal growth from the beginning of the game to the end was basically nonexistent. There was nothing to build on when DD came around--he was still the same blank slate with a loud voice, which is why Clay (and then a game later, Nahyuta and Durke and that whole fiasco) came out of nowhere. Given that, the direction of the series over the next two games--first bringing back Phoenix and once again making him the main character (along with giving him a new apprentice lawyer to mentor) and then spending SoJ putting Apollo on a bus, then a plane, and then setting him up with his own law office in another country and presumably writing him out of the series--is best seen as one long, extended retcon to get rid of a character they regretted creating.

[@rikustorm13]

I liked Jinxie and Phineas Filch, Mayor Tenma pretending to be a demon got old real fast tho

[@axolofa]

It's insane how 4 of the 6 cases in Dual Destinies are flashbacks, and yet we never get to see any of the plot important motivations on screen, and have to be told them instead

[@NotSpecialDude]

Its easy to forget, but Apollo justice (the game, not the character) was lambasted originally because of what it did to the legacy characters it had. Wright was one thing, but Ema skye as well. Now I appreciate the story as it is, but doesn't surprise me that wright gets his badge back in the next game and Ema gets her dream job after that. Personally, I loved DD. But the thing is, I played DD FIRST before Apollo. After the trilogy, I skipped Apollo. You're absolutely right that DD is a poor sequel to Apollo, but I get the impression that it wasn't trying to be. I feel that DD was trying to continue from the trilogy as if Apollo never happened, but not outright denying it either. Similar to how Dark souls 3 distances itself from ds2 and ties more into the first game, but doesn't outright deny it by referencing ds2 once or twice. Apollo is a good game, but it drastically changed the status quo of the franchise both in its opening and closing act. Its tone is still the darkest the series ever gets. And fans inital reception was very controversial at the time. So I don't blame the writers for wanting to undo Apollo.

[@duckyfishes9445]

I had a similar experience to you and I agree in what you said. Dual Destinies really felt like they were doing their own thing rather than a continuation to Apollo Justice. I still like Dual Destinies and I’m glad Spirit of Justice let Apollo shine.

[@lokouba]

Personally i don’t mind they gave up Apollo and Klavier’s rivalry because i simply found Klavier to be the most boring prosecutor. I think Dual Destinies’ biggest flaw was that it had WAY too much comic relief. It’s hard to take any case seriously except for Simons. All the villains are boring and shallow as well compared to the original trilogy. Apollo Justice Ace Attorney does have this flaw as well.

[@skullptures6192]

Idk I think Klavier would have been a really interesting prosecutor in this game. His best friend and his own brother were both murderers, and watching Klavier come to terms with that and grow alongside Apollo would have been interesting

[@henrynelson9301]

You can’t just call Klavier the most boring prosecutor when Nahyuta exists

[@banzaialex5984]

@@henrynelson9301 Nahyuta is interesting Klavier is 1 dimensional rock star guy I'd even say Nahyuta is one of the best in the franchise he's a fascinating character

[@ItalianMappingBestMapper]

@@henrynelson9301 or edgeworth as well

[@henrynelson9301]

@@ItalianMappingBestMapper I really hope you’re talking about Edgeworth in DD and SoJ. Because if so, I agree. If not, what the hell is wrong with you

[@rogue1248]

It was a big mistake to bring back Phoenix into court

[@Вгостяхуютубера-л3ц]

funny, characters is the only reason for me to put second case above The Kidnapped Turnabout

[@DaShikuXI]

Athena Cykes should never have been introduced in these games. 3 main lawyers to play as is just too much. It means you have no opportunity to get to know each character like you originally did with Phoenix. DD and SJ should have been Phoenix and Apollo, with a bigger focus on Apollo. After that you can have Athena Cykes be the new protege when Apollo chooses to stay in Kurain for a new trilogy. Also Apollo's backstory is just bad. The writing is inconsistent and just poor. It feels like there were several completely different writers writing one backstory for Apollo, and it did not go well.

[@okeanos317]

awesome vid,I didn't know you did reviews,I always thought of this channel as more of a what's happening in the smash community

[@chickenlover223]

I don't know who the heck Pheonix Wright is but I love your videos.

[@_KristophGavin]

While I love DD, I refuse to accept it as a sequel to AJAA. It's much more like an AU than actual continuation of *Apollo's* story. Apollo? Like you pointed it out in the video, he barely exists there and the only thing he did there was to turn his back to Wright and he didn't evolve at all. Where is Kristoph? Phoenix' mentor figure, Mia, was appearing in all of his games, and Kristoph like… Doesn't exist anymore. He was just barely referenced while re-introducing black psyche locks and Apollo parroting him on the witness' stand. They definitely should explore more the relationship Kristoph and Apollo had. If Apollo turned against Wright, they could simply show him visiting Kristoph in the prison and, man, there was a great opportunity to show if Kristoph had bad intentions towards his former mentee (we can't forget of the fact that everything Apollo learned until now was literally thanks to Kristoph). I loved Edgeworth, but come on. He should be gone together with Phoenix as they already played their roles in the series. It should be Klavier to appear in the last case, not Edgeworth. I was absolutely disappointed by that. Oh, another point! They left Gavin brothers without any explanation, though there was something interesting showed to us in the second part of the trial when Kristoph walked in the courtroom. Athena is a great character, but it would be much better if she got her own games instead of consuming the time that should be focused on Apollo. We didn't have it happen in the actual trilogy that we had different playable characters at the same time. It's a very bad decision. I agree about the point about Clay. He literally appeared out of nowhere and as already dead guy. Also, it would be much more interesting to play as Apollo during the whole Clay's case.

[@shn4449]

I have to disagree with you on the Percieve part, I think it was handled poorly in Apollo Justice. In Apollo Justice, Apollo pulls his bracelet outta nowhere in middle of the courtroom and is like "I saw your pinky twitching! This is an *undeniable* proof that you're lying!" and the witness is immidiately like "Oh no he saw my pinky twitching! Now I have no option but to tell the whole truth!" which makes no sense. And why is Apollo's voodoo bracelet allowed in the courtroom to be used like an evidence without anyone batting an eye? Compare that to Athena's mood matrix. Athena has it approved from the Judge before ever using in the courtroom, so the witnesses are *required* to cooperate with it.

[@cerendaroth6414]

@@Wishtelle That's how I viewed it more as well. It isn't the nervous twitch itself that helps Apollo solve the case. It's moreso that the nervous twitch is an indication that the person is lying or hiding something. Usually when this is pointed out to someone, they are more likely to break under the pressure and give out something crucial. I'm not going to argue that it isn't cheesy, but Phoenix's magatama is 100x more outlandish. At least Apollo's bracelet is somewhat grounded in reality lol.

[@elsie8757]

@@cerendaroth6414 To be fair though, the magatama doesn't get used in the courtroom

[@duckyfishes9445]

Really enjoying reading these comments

[@cerendaroth6414]

@@elsie8757 That's a good point, I should have worded it better. I was trying to say that I can suspend my disbelief that Apollo's bracelet works since it's in the same universe where the magatama is used. Hopefully that makes more sense!

[@IceBlueLugia]

He never says “this is undeniable proof you’re lying” stop making shit up and do an ounce of research. He notices a tell, points it out to the witness, and because they’re stupid and don’t know how evidence works, they admit it. Kristoph is a lawyer and realizes his claim doesn’t have any actual legal basis, so he calls Apollo’s bluff and it doesn’t work. Every other witness could do the same, but don’t because they don’t realize his “evidence” is useless The Mood Matrix should never be allowed by any stretch of the imagination. In this dark age of the law, where all lawyers are forcing evidence, the idea of the defense using a machine that only they can interpret is a huge red flag and should never be approved by any remotely sane judge, even if Blackquill was fine it. Witnesses have rights too and aren’t allowed to be badgered. But of course you’ll ignore all that because I guess AJ was a shit game in every way and it was good the series retconned it’s existence and moved on to shoveling even more awful writing down our throats.

[@emuejevokewhiteru1939]

Although Dual Destinies is my number one favorite Ace Attorney game,the points you make in this video are understandable and fair and I agree to them.Keep up the great work in the future:)

[@bernardfroztatila6267]

I don't hate Athena or Simon, actually I like them quite well, but the problem is that Dual Destinies should have been the sequel to Apollo Justice, not Athena's story. Spirit of Justice the next installment, although not perfect, works more as a sequel to AJ than DD. What's more, if we remove Athena from SoJ, the game remains practically the same because Athena has no contribution to the game's plot. If you ask me how to fix what caused DD, it would be the following: 1- Remove Apollo from DD and Athena from SoJ. 2- Change the order DD and SoJ, becoming the order AJ -> SoJ -> DD 3-Use the SoJ DLC, to explain what the hell happened between AJ and SoJ, things like why Phoenix went back to court and the jury system. 4- Once Apollo's story is finished, we start DD with Athena telling her own story, and giving her all the prominence, because although DD is her starting game, just like Apollo, she only has one case that is the Turnabout Academy.

[@SkyrunnerCD]

The weird thing is that there's a case in SoJ that is very much a closure to a bunch of points presented in AA4 that no one would bat an eye if it was actually a case from that game, so they had ideas to build off of AA4, they simply decided not to until SoJ, which has such a completely different main plot that the case ends up feeling disconnected and almost like a filler despite being such an important part of the overarching "trilogy" of Apollo

[@OranguBANG]

Ace attorney content Also 14:53 ayeeee

[@السراقالمجهول]

ngl i never got passed the tutorial case of this game the first 4 ace attorney games hooked to a degree a i havnt experienced in a while after i finished aj i went straight to dd and i was so disappointed when i knew that it didnt follow up on it that i just quit

[@ker4261]

We need inspecteur tahar ace detective the game asap.

[@TheStorytellerAJ]

I feel this. But SOJ did him even worse.

[@thefranChise1]

Cap

[@TheStorytellerAJ]

@@thefranChise1 meet me outside

[@thefranChise1]

bet

[@jameskowanko7574]

Eh. SoJ’s story, taken on its own is fine for Apollo. He has an arc, he does things, he gets a big win at the end. The main thing was that all of his stuff on SoJ was not really connected to the plot from his main game. Personally I blame AA4. I think that game just failed to properly set up Apollo’s character and the rest of the cast, because it basically put most of the heavy lifting on the shoulders of a hypothetical AJ2. Takumi has had that problem since the trilogy really. While AA1 and JFA don’t need their sequels to be a tight and complete package, AJ and TGAA both left very important story off for sequels

[@nicoloenricorimoldi7425]

@@jameskowanko7574 AA1 doesn’t suffer from needing a sequel because it was meant as a stand-alone game originally. Also, both the first game and JfA had mostly low stakes and didn’t have the overarching plot structure that T&T has and that the series would follow for the rest of its duration (and I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing). Apollo Justice, meanwhile, has way too much to juggle so it has to alternate between what to focus on. Still, I think Takumi did a great job with the cast despite not having much time to spend with them. We also need to consider that AJ:AA was meant as a reboot, so the writers thought that we would get more time to know the cast in future instalments, as it had happened with AA2 and 3. TGAA is different, actually. It was supposed to be a single game but Takumi had too many ideas and it was decided to split the game in two. I wouldn’t say that TGAA1 depends too much on its sequel, though. If anything, Adventures focuses on the main characters (besides van Zieks) and not on the overdone political intrigue that hasn’t been interesting since Investigations came around, and it’s all the better for it.

[@MiyaoMeow588]

Apollo Justice failed Apollo Justice. It's quite obvious AA4 really didn't know what to do with him. Even if AA5 and 6 had to force obviously unplanned backstory elements for him, they treat him a lot better than the game where his name is literally the title, a game where he does 10% of the work in the final case. Spirit of Justice was the first *real* Apollo Justice game, in fact. He only leads two cases but Turnabout Revolution is like half the game by itself, so that's justified. I'm more concerned about Athena personally. She had a perfectly decent but not great showing in her debut game and she...I guess she existed in SOJ.

[@giuliaferrucci6662]

Apollo Justice was meant to be a start in my opinion, like PW:AA. Putting down the foundations for other games to be. It's the following games that failed it, just consider that the only established Apollo backstory in Apollo Justice (the whole Thalassa ordeal) was just...not yet resolved two games after

[@nicoloenricorimoldi7425]

But… AA4 does set up a conflict for Apollo to solve, other than developing his relationships with the cast way better than AA6. Apollo’s very last line in the final trial of Turnabout Succession is about him not knowing enough of the law, which is clearly a set up for a future arc that he would undergo in future games. Other than that, a sequel could have focused on his ties with his family (his actual family, not Nahyuta or Hobo Phoenix 2.0/Dhurke), his relationships with the Gavins and the aftermath of 4-4.

[@IceBlueLugia]

Yeah this is just bullshit. AA4 set up plenty of plot points for Apollo to solve and established the dark age plot point that Apollo’s legal journey was clearly meant to explore and come to terms with. Just because he was overshadowed in 2 cases doesn’t mean the game failed him. The game that failed him is the one that threw away all that setup his own game had

[@foxeye245]

I am sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but I’ve always felt that DD was where Apollo was at his best, and it is AJ and SoJ that really hurt his character.

[@xxProjectJxx]

I can see where you're coming from with that. It's weird because Dual Destinies is where Apollo is simultaneously the most well written he's ever been, but also the most utterly irrelevant to the story itself.

[@Salmon_Lamb0]

I managed to agree with absolutely everything said here

[@IceBlueLugia]

I’d say kidnapped turnabout is worse but monstrous turnabout is pretty much about as bad Turnabout academy is atrocious as well but at the very least there’s a “so bad it’s good” feel to it and you can sort of enjoy it if you don’t take it seriously. The other two are just so damn boring

[@kingofflames738]

I'd say it failed Athena more than Apollo

[@EliasMorals]

I notice that even in SoJ, you cant even Percieve in trials. Either its Phoenix playing in Kura'in, The prosecutor makes it so you cant, or you're playing as Athena. Even in the Phoenix trial, you don't even do it despite nothing telling you that you're unable

[@phoedahoe5370]

I feel like Athena is a fine character and a good addition to the franchise and main cast... but she came too soon I feel like the order should of been something like this AA4: AJ AA5: SoJ (without Athena) AA6: (An Apollo game where he and trucy reunite with their mother near the end) (Have the new prosecutor be someone who hates him due to the whole Borginian Cocoon issue) (Apollo leaves to spend time with their mother because of his kinda missing childhood from her and wanting to spend a year with her or smtn) AA7: Duel Destinies (But hella reworked to exclude/minimise Apollo)

[@megarotom1590]

cod finally someone agrees on 5-2 being the worst case in the series, it's just so annoying and boring, there's nothing you'd lose in the slightest removing it AND it was the case that was like "SURPRISE TRUCY GETTING SIDELINED"

[@JMBoote1]

11:41 - Granted, this is just an idea you threw out there casually, but the notion of there being a full-on investigation at the Cosmos Space Center prior to Clay dying makes no sense logically, since it's Clay's death that causes the protagonists to even visit the Space Center to begin with. The only way for it to make some semblance of sense would be if Apollo was visiting Clay prior to his launch, but even then, doing entire investigations before the murder occurs is risky. Some people didn't like the opening to the final case of The Great Ace Attorney: Adventures precisely because of how it did exactly that, spent an entire chapter meeting the victim and setting things up for later (hell, Adventures get shit for setting up later plot-points in advance in general, for the sequel. So the idea of an investigation dedicated to meeting a victim would essentially act as a microcosm of those same complaints).

[@thefranChise1]

I said let us meet him before he dies similar to how you meet misty fey before she dies

[@JMBoote1]

@@thefranChise1 Yes? I was talking about your proposed scenario for meeting him. The only reason, in The Cosmic Turnabout, that Apollo and co. are at the Space Station, is to investigate Clay's death. I agree with the idea of meeting him, it's just that particular scenario you described would have to be rewritten, since them being there is precipitated by his death. There was another reason for Phoenix and co. being at Hazakura Temple, it wasn't just so they could meet the victim. There would need to be a similarly logical reason for them being there besides "So they can meet Clay before he dies.".

[@elsie8757]

@@JMBoote1 I mean... I doubt coming up with a non-murder-related reason for Apollo to visit his best friend at the space center where he works would be very hard?

[@IceBlueLugia]

His best friend works at the space center. Apollo wanted to visit him. Easiest thing in the world.

[@natyfop]

Is there anyway we can convince Capcom to greenlit more seasons of the anime, not only to have AA4 in anime form, but also to have these changes you proposed in the Space Center case of DD? I would pay for that!

[@TheAkumuKing]

Im literally rewriting Apollo’s trilogy. I might just remove Spirit of Justice in favor for a whole new story in between AJ and DD. I need more Klavier.

[@IceBlueLugia]

I don’t think removing SOJ is smart. 6-2 is perfect for a hypothetical AJ2, and honestly for as mediocre as the civil trial was I do think having some kind of Apollo vs Phoenix trial is important in order to show how far Apollo has come, while also establishing that these protagonists are very different and are willing to side with different clients. Maybe that could be the final case of AJ2 in your rewrite. I do agree Klavier needs more in general

[@rya1818]

Your hot take for Monstrous Turnabout is valid, but i can't take the Turnabout Big Top, this case irritates me so much and at least i was entertained by Tenma Taro funny acting. But yeah, the yokai case is kind of the point where Apollo has all his spotlight at the game and loses it all after that, and in top of all this, the plot making him the "antagonist" for like 1 segment of the last case is a bummer for me that wanted a story about him (even liking the Athena/Blackquill arc). Surely the next game can tell a good backstory about him, but the mess is already done in DD.

[@mikisek0077]

I agree with everything, despite the Monstrous Turnabout, I think that case is a fun silly little case

[@TallTapper]

AJ was also flawed

[@sicklyflower]

My god, I need more gaming content from you franchise..... 🥴

[@nightmarearcade2663]

Honestly I get the feeling the devs knew how much they screwed up when it came to Apollo's story which is probably why spirit of justice tried to have more focus on him (your mileage may vary on that if you ask me though) like this guy now has 2 back stories and Athena is almost completely thrown out she's get one case and the only thing people remember from it is the clown.

[@applejustice]

I just want them to restart everything and do Apollo Justice part 2

[@iatethelastnuttybuddy7573]

I just finished dual destinies recently and really liked it but I agree with a lot of your points. I think it’s a great Athena game, but not a great Apollo game. AA4 built up an interesting story and just didn’t follow through with it and that makes me sad. I wish Apollo Justice could’ve been a trilogy like the original, with a single story drawn through all three games.

[@Heathcliff_LCB]

Ace attorney is a Movie packed in a video game

[@DavidRay_40]

I actually really liked Dual Destinies. Especially the music. The story of the phantom was pretty cool and the who it turned out to be was took me completely by surprise. So, yeah, imho, you're wrong about it.

[@Hero_My_Beloved]

I noticed that even though Apollo has like, 3 sextillion backstories, his character still feels shallower than a fish bowl. And i seriously cannot explain why? I cant believe ATHENA is more understandable than Apollo...

[@Zordyn]

I loved The Monstrous Turnabout

[@devinbannish1469]

Bruh I watched some of your super smash bros videos, I had no idea you did any on ace attorney.

[@TemporalZack]

Feels like Dual Destinies might have been better if it was just an Athena game. I know a lot of people (including myself) want a good continuation to AJAA, but in my opinion, the best parts of Dual Destinies are Athena, Simon Blackquill, and Bobby Fulbright. If they're gonna sideline Apollo that hard anyway, might as well just make a game about those three without having to also drag along Apollo and Phoenix, and it might have turned out better.

[@jkrunch2166]

I overall like Dual Destinies quite a lot, but... yeah, its biggest problem is how dirty it did Apollo.

[@Neogears1312]

Capcom has always been terrible with new protagonists. Only Leon Scott Kennedy got the love he deserved and wasn’t thrown away forever as a side character.

[@Exlayer-pk8hy]

The only ones that managed to stick are the different Megamen. Because there's always the stipulation that the new Megaman comes around a century after the old one

[@hase2944]

im pretty new w ace attorney and apollo justice was the start of it all, so imagine my surprise and disappointment they didnt make the sequel for him. yall might not hate athena but I sure do.

[@domenicobini1fan534]

same bro

[@jayistrying4558]

I placed Spirit of Justice before Dual Destinies, so I was excited for it. It was kind of underwhelming to be honest. Simon and Athena are great additions to the universe, but I think the pacing kind of weird. It kind of retconned a lot of things established on Apollo Justice. They did my boy dirty.

[@MatheusNiisama]

Awe man, I'm not gonna watch this video cause I still wanna play it on my own without spoilers, but I was really hoping this would be the game to redeem Apollo. The original Apollo Justice game was such a mess, the worst crime that game commited though, was just how much Apollo was cucked out of his own story and how much everyone robbed him of his agency. I really wanted to root for Apollo but it just felt like everyone was just toying with him or using him, it really made me resent Phoenix on that game specifically.

[@nineofhearts03]

Ngl i had to mute l'belle's theme because it was so annoying

[@davudlinteanu8947]

DD has phoenix on the cover so...

[@StarShadow753]

A way I thought we could have all 3 protagonists focused on in the final case is to have Apollo as the prosecutor instead of edgeworth, will make sense why a difficult opponent because knows how Phoenix works and uses perceive, this role fully shows his spiral of negative character arc and make it even more emotional and tense, becomes prosecutor where Gavin gives him his badge as a reverse edgeworth as defence , making Gavin actually important in the game, gives his badge because sees how desperate Apollo needs to find out the truth.