How Fast Is Melee?

[@MegaStunfiskandHat]

I love coming back to this video every year and seeing how it gets progressively less impossible looking

[@TheUchihasparky]

Me after going 0-2 in my first local tournament: "DAMN! How can anyone be this good?" Me after playing for 5 years: "DAMN! I can play way faster then this!" Honestly this game feels exactly like skateboarding (which i also love), the skill ceiling is so high it seems like it doesn't even have one and it is insanely hard to get better but with enough time and effort it will happen (with some days feeling like you got worse) Its difficulty and mental struggles although very high is balanced by its equal payoff in the rewarding feeling you get when everything just clicks into place, you don't even really think about what you are doing, you are just in the flow.

[@jeromevarin-beaulieu1493]

@@TheUchihasparky as a skater a absolutely love the analogy, remember when you first learned kickflip and was so excited? Then you woke up the next day and went skating and couldn't land it for shit. Melee feels SO similar to that. Both requires such precise input/movement it's crazy. Muscle memory plays such a huge part in it.

[@mtarantino42]

I started playing in 2015 and I remember this video looked so intimidating and like high level pro play. But now, even as a Marth player, I look back at it and think "yeah that doesn't seem too hard tbh, seems like how the slightly above average fox main plays at my locals"

[@_Majunior]

​@@TheUchihasparkyI love the seldom moments I meet a melee player who also skates. The similar progression of style and expression between the two makes me feel privileged to have both

[@SpiCYTaC0]

as many inputs as this video displayed, 4 were actually missed: 3 aerial drifts and the walk forward after the jab. that being said you'd probably subtract the 2 'edge grab' inputs since the character grabs the ledge automatically; net increase of 2 more inputs then. just thought i'd put it out there. so if you think that was a lot of inputs, add 2 more!

[@chasepoirier573]

Marcus Wellz He added an extra L-cancel full hop bairs auto cancel

[@SpiCYTaC0]

chase poirier yeah an argument could be made for that one too. although i'm sure any of us would've L-cancelled that anyway just to be sure.

[@SpiCYTaC0]

2011super k

[@2011super]

RedHairdo I don't fap I use only the finest lotion for my johnson, poorkid.

[@Aerros]

Marcus Wellz I counted 41 inputs (not including the ledge grabs, but also including the wave dashes as two separate commands inputs) and timed it roughly from 1:16 - 1:22 for a total of 5.7 seconds. This one example (with the time estimate above) clocks in at 7.19 inputs per second so everyone has an idea as to why they can hear gamecube controllers clacking and cursing at each other in a 1v1 @__@

[@keystrix3704]

This is so fast that the slow-mo even needs a slow-mo.

[@svddsosa7396]

😂😂 LMAO ^ xzibit meme's dont get old

[@svddsosa7396]

***** 2 years later and this shit is still hilarious lmao

[@quincystokes1476]

svdd sosa lol I love how you came back to reread this XD

[@AxiomApe]

Good shit everyone. I am proud of this part of the comment section.

[@chuksk8592]

Why are we all here?

[@NATE-bz7mx]

Crazy that this video came out 10 years ago and there's STILL a bunch of new developments in both tech and shifts/developments in the meta

[@jerenjagodzinski9651]

Actually it came out almost 20 years ago

[@classicpinball9873]

@@jerenjagodzinski9651 this is version 2 so yeah it did come out 10 years ago

[@SexyFace]

what is a tech & a shift explained for dummies? i read the wiki but still confused on how they work

[@NATE-bz7mx]

@@SexyFace tech is just shorthand for techniques, any sequence of movements or whatever that gets developed. shifting isn't an in-game thing, I just meant like seeing top players rise and fall and how the competitive scene has grown and changed over the years, it's shifted a lot, you know?

[@SexyFace]

oh i see. thanks for getting me hip👍

[@lilgohan]

Quite a time later, I return to this video to find that this sequence Dark performed is less about technical proficiency and more about the presence of mind it took to even think about waveshine onto platform or reverse bair to jab to shine. I probably would have drillshined into up smash instead of those.

[@llKhoesll]

He does the waveshine into platform into silly fox stuff a lot.

[@ifeelit6518]

If you are dedicated, and you main Falco (the most stylish char in the game) you look for the flashiest option. Dark is just food.

[@VenclaireVR]

Actually, Ganon or Falcon style way more than Falco.

[@daisuke4bleach]

yung latios Falcon is much more stylin

[@lilgohan]

holgh wolgh replied to the wrong person.

[@likemikew8885]

This video is my auto-reply to whoever tells me : 'I used to play melee back in the day, I was really good at it!"

[@Nuclearburrit0]

Turns out you were talking to Ken this whole time

[@rjw19]

You must be fun at parties

[@guacinmysock]

r/gatekeeping

[@nihatnihat8264]

That's basically what I used to think, until I recently saw how people play actually play the game at high level, and I started playing netplay. Of course the Meta has evolved, but even in old videos from the time I used to play it as a kid, I clearly see that I was far bellow a descent level. Ffs I didn't even know things like wavedash, chain grab, L-cancel, etc. existed

[@anmdragon36]

ryan k Reddit moment

[@ThatIrishBloke15]

SUPER SMASH BROS MELEE 2 SPEEDS FAST AND WAY TOO FAST

[@BizerkPixel]

ThatIrishBloke15 DY-NO-MITE

[@vishnuv.7807]

+ThatIrishBloke15 How fast pros play

[@someguy2350]

ECH.

[@RosiYYAP]

That's it, that's the game

[@abarette_]

and puff

[@Zerqui]

Thanks for reminding me to this video, GRsmash.

[@iforgothowtocount124]

Zerqui same lol.

[@ish_stm]

JetpackCat39 another one joins...

[@cloudyej7535]

Me too lol

[@kennethzheng3735]

ye lol

[@soundwave8560]

Ten years later and I'm still dying on 1:08 on super slow speed.

[@chef7423]

After grinding in melee for a few months, this feels just like muscle memory. I'd be more impressed with hitting consistent ledgedashes and double shines in tournament. Oh how far we've come

[@Ohrami]

If you've only been playing for a few months and you say that this "feels just like muscle memory" to you, or that you're more impressed with double shines, then you clearly haven't played enough. Dark is one of the most technical Fox players to ever play the game and this combo is absolutely nuts

[@chef7423]

I'm not saying that the combo isn't impressive I'm just saying that I feel like this just needs to be muscle memory to be a top player and that things like consistent ledgedashes and double shines (I was referring to shield pressure my b) are now necessary. I was more talking about how the meta game is evolving past just getting technical combos. Sorry for the vagueness ^_^

[@Noahtheorigianl]

+Ohrami idk with all the guides nowadays people can get this technical in a few months. Got my friend into melee and he was really into practicing tech. In 2 months he is as tech as dark, because today we have all these guides and 20xx hack pack to practice it has become easier

[@Divinate1]

Yes, it's easier, but 'as technical as dark' is a disgusting overstatement. Maybe if he sits in 20xx for the next 2 years then he'll be as tech as dark.

[@RedHairdo]

Some people trying to criticize Melee by saying a lot of those are glitches. lol Now, tell me: Tripping is not a glitch. So, does that make it better?

[@joshuamuoneke8478]

+Satisfactory Bro JC grabs and down b's arent in the game, only glide tossing.

[@ssfaith3714]

Yes they are. I use to do it all the time.

[@joshuamuoneke8478]

SS Faith In Sm4sh?

[@YTPrule]

RedHairdo It actually does as it's intentionally that way. It means that not only is the result not a fluke or an accident but that their design goal was reached. It's winning the lottery vs a skilled investment.

[@Nuclearburrit0]

YTPrule better comparison would be Losing the lottery vs poor investment

[@TheAlfy312]

OoooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - Captain Falcon

[@superfakerbros]

I show this whenever people say Super Smash Bros isn't a real fighting game

[@theperfectsatsu765]

It's not tho the creater said it him self

[@theperfectsatsu765]

@@Parpeing just taking the word of the cheater dont be mad if you dont wanna listen him

[@321tiempo3]

@@theperfectsatsu765 smash players has made the game competitive by themselves. They created their own rules. No items, banning almost all the stages from tournaments and stock fights

[@cozynitee]

@@theperfectsatsu765 sakurai also said that the game was made to be played however you wanted, like competitively

[@gabrielcastejon7914]

It's a platform fighting game. It made a new genre. Who cares if people don't consider it a fighting game, I hope they realize platform fighters are more popular than fighting games. If they just wanted to brag that their fighting game is more technical then they'd have an argument, personally I find both genres to be very technical, it's just that platform fighters are more intuitive.

[@technoboy2606]

*sees multiple people complaining about how the game is technically difficult* what? Why are you guys complaining. That's for people who WANT to be technical, and WANT to play competitively. Changes are, if you're a casual the people you associate with are casuals too, so you don't have to worry about other your friends pooping on your face backwards through a straw. There was absolutely no reason for them to change the speed. Surprisingly enough, casual players can still spam jabs, dash, jump, and use specials so I am not seeing the problem.

[@illuminatibewithyou8824]

For a beginner : OMG SO COOL for an average : Alright! For a veteran : Everyday fox. 20XX

[@illican]

Illuminati BeWithYou For a veteran: Good luck with Pikachu, fox.

[@matt4kz]

watching shit like this makes me so much less interested in newer smash games. you can't even try to say Ultimate is even comparable skill-wise or technicality wise

[@Acryte]

say word?

[@IAm-zo1bo]

I mean it is less technical bit it's still a good competitive fighting game

[@Sness400]

@@Parpeing LOL

[@JohnObregon]

@Base Bass Forte Sure, kid. You go ahead and keep playing Melee.

[@brb23960]

There’s a lot of skill involved in any smash game. Sure melee is more technical, but they all are skillful. Love melee and ultimate personally

[@Greek-God-Adonis]

Then there's me just jumping and holding my smash attack. No shields.

[@SatisfactoryBro]

+High lvl We either start from a point, or believe that the point we're on is good enough. No one blames you for playing how you play, especially if you want to play said way.

[@Xeon897]

35 actions, 7 seconds. That comes to about 300 APM... That's about on par with Stacraft II

[@kennethzheng3735]

5 input 1 second? Holy crud my hands would hurt after that. Dark's tech skill is soooo good

[@aabrarrahman4129]

Y'all should watch relno's video called "godspeed". Makes this technical work of art look like child's play.

[@kennethzheng3735]

Aabrar Rahman Yeah I saw that. He's such a robot tho

[@parokatsai]

When you consider the timing needed to perform these movement it becomes even amazing.

[@ShanoaSSB]

It may look really intimidating at first, but you'd be surprised on how easy it can be to pull something like this off as you learn the mechanics.

[@HaxHaunter]

Blast Processing, son.

[@mariosavage1]

BirriaBoy64 Geometry dash?

[@DurpenHeimer]

mariosavage1 algebra shine

[@perrodogdog]

mariosavage1 It`s from an old sega commercial

[@Sabbathfaax]

+mariosavage1 Geo dash didn't invent everything you know

[@mariosavage1]

I know lol, but its funny because i was looking at geometry dash things right before that.

[@quesote20]

Dark just watched the video, and said it missed the jab cancel (stick down after the jab). xd

[@FashionGamer]

He was just being dumb 'cause jab canceling is only used to repeat jab1 without going into jab2. It makes no difference otherwise.

[@Azzucips]

***** That's not entirely true. Jab canceling is slightly faster than not canceling. I think that makes sense to me. For other applications, you can jab -> jab cancel -> grab for instance.

[@iKillCow4Fun]

truth is, this play was very good but it wasn't 99.99% frame perfect unfortunately.

[@Starfy119]

aaand thats why melee was at mlg and evo and brawl wasnt.

[@Convicted_Melon]

Honestly I would have actually enjoyed playing competitive Brawl if it wasn't for the FUCKING TRIPPING FOR FUCK SAKE WHY.

[@Toonlink003]

Toomany .Toastuhs LoL Nope, brawl tournaments are boring as hell

[@mariosavage1]

LaCaja I personally like competitive brawl even if it is slow

[@DSaC_]

Toomany .Toastuhs Sm4sh is really just Brawl with a better roster and no random tripping.

[@Convicted_Melon]

Dr.Shit-A-Crit Eh not really. It's more similar to brawl than it is to melee yeah but it plays pretty differently.

[@RuneskyProductions]

If this scares someone away from competitive Smash then they weren't cut out for it in the first place. No passion.

[@SatisfactoryBro]

Well put, because this is what got me interested in Competitive Smash.

[@farleydbear]

"Sakurai, can we have another competitively entertaining and advanced fast-paced game pls??" mr. sakurai: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

[@InfiniteHAV0K]

Watching this back you actually missed a couple of inputs. First was the shield DI forward at the beginning. Then was the forward movement after the jab to shine towards the end. Also of course the tech skill spam:

[@danielvutran]

still sendin this to all the people who meme about Melee being a casual game lma0

[@WinerTreize]

I still show this to people who don't know what Melee is... they don't wanna play when they see it :)

[@Fuckingflesheater]

It's still casual

[@KashiwaDaisuke]

competitive melee is one of the most execution-heavy games of all time

[@The_Aleph_Null]

Is there any other aspect to the game other than combo execution?

[@whynowind5525]

+KashiwaDaisuke nah it isn't

[@ln8496]

Cringing in 2021 at the fact that we used to just take drills without sdi

[@Slapmaster5000]

I enjoyed reading your responses, and you seem to be a good sport about it, it's more than I usually get.

[@rickwilson3703]

Shit like this just scares away new players. The learning curve is ridiculous, you gotta have a lot of time on your hands. Sakurai surely didn't put this in my instructional manual.

[@KiroMaticzPersona]

It may look scary but I've only been practicing for like 3 hours between 2 different days and I've already started getting the basics. It's really not that hard you just need to put some effort in.

[@simongotborg3866]

You're right. But this isn't a video made for casual players who might want to pick up Melee and I don't think those are the people who'll watch the video. I use this video to demonstrate what the game is like at a high level when I'm talking to hardcore gamers (like skilled Starcraft or Guilty Gear players).

[@sirjayden]

Simon Götborg Exactly. People who played Brawl first are probably scared of this game because it looks so fast. Melee is noticeably faster than any other smash game to date, but not extremely fast unless at top level competitive play. But the thing is, all you see of Melee is top level competitive play. This makes first impressions seem like Melee is a super speedy game, extremely technical, and you have to be really good at button inputs to even play normally. This is not true. You can play Melee casually just as easily as any other smash title. There's only one problem with this game. Fuck those events.

[@simongotborg3866]

Jayden Klein Yeah. It's like. You're not going to get anywhere in a competitive environment unless you put in the time to practice, but that's true for any big competitive game. You don't even need that level of execution to do decently in Melee (unless you play Fox or something). I mean. I play a pretty slow Marth, and I do okay in tournaments. Also. I liked those event matches. They are really hard but that's what made them fun.

[@sirjayden]

Simon Götborg Yeah, the events are ungodly in the 30s onward, but the satisfaction of finally beating them is their redeeming quality. This is basically me right now. "Yes!! I finally beat Seven Year- oh wait, now I have to do Time for a Checkup." "...shit."

[@hanscarabonala2462]

I once tried to get good in Meele. I sucked. I then tried to be good in Brawl. I sucked. After that I tried some other Beat 'em ups Sucked too And I also suck in Sm4sh, yet I play it since almost a year. But hey, atleast I'm good in Pokémon.

[@xman5465]

+Hans Carabonala (EinName) try the 20XX training hack pack

[@hanscarabonala2462]

123adi123da Maybe one day. I don't really have time anymore for competetive play

[@glaciere-sama3529]

+Hans Carabonala (EinName) Pokemon inputs are too fast for some peoples.

[@InsanityReborn]

-waits in battle 80+s for dude to make move per turn- -6-0- -sighs and turns off game in newfound boredom-

[@thevgmlover]

For reals, to actually get good, just match grinding isn't nearly enough. You need to practice on getting to grips with all the advanced moves first, and then apply what you've learned into your matches.

[@anteil95]

This is the video I show people who ask me what Melee is.

[@Keldeox]

Brawl was made to make sure technical-complicated moves like this didn't happen.

[@SatisfactoryBro]

You say that like it's a good thing ;m;

[@manuelsilva9899]

And thats why its almost never competitively played

[@Zombie81212]

***** It is a great thing ;_;

[@SatisfactoryBro]

Matthew Greer That depends on what side you're on. As you can clearly see, I'm on the Competitive Melee side.

[@LiquidPr1d3]

Manuel Silva you have no idea what you're fucking talking about brawl had a huge fucking scene. if you think it never existed than you are flat out wrong. fucking doucumentary kids.

[@jeromevarin-beaulieu1493]

Someone needs to remake this but with a 2022 Mang0 combo

[@NeoJSsk]

This guy have to be a maintain from government, veteran or something to have time to master this

[@sendylie1774]

One of reasons why the debate between Melee and Brawl fanboys starts? Because of this.

[@arcaderkid8449]

Melee is an Awesome Game and pretty muchall SSB Games are better, hell i got: 1. Super Smash Bros. 64 2. Super Smash Bros Melee NGC 3. Super Smash Bros BRAWL! Nintendo Wii 4. Super Smash Bros BRAWL U to me all these titles are Great!! & if i had to pick, i would say its the Nintendo Game Cube Controller!! every body loves that.

[@sendylie1774]

I only got melee and... There's is Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U, not Brawl U.

[@arcaderkid8449]

Sendy Lie that's ok as long as you own one of the titles now you are part of that legacy.

[@lucifersam7946]

You can primarily put that blame towards The Documentary, the death of the competitive Brawl scene, and the reviving of Melee's competitive scene back in 2013.

[@projectz358]

+NarcissBlue Don't know what sucks more to face. Melee Fox of Brawl Metaknight. Melee had problems.

[@Tobygold1]

There is actually no L-cancel at 0:59. You can tell by looking at the clouds when he lands. See how the clouds are circle like? That means the move finished before he landed.

[@pearlywhites3025]

Shut up no one cares about your robot fan fiction

[@44tharia46]

PsyK Films what

[@pearlywhites3025]

_ Dodo _ FilthyFrank reference

[@willow6618]

Tobygold1 called an auto cancel. so he got the terminology wrong...

[@Vin50000]

L canceling requires inputs, auto canceling is well auto. So it is relevant enough to point out.

[@DjGyroGuru]

always spam tech skill after a kill lol

[@Fools_Requiem]

@tuPHwUn "In video games, a combo (short for combination) is a term that designates a set of actions performed in sequence." -Wiki "2 or more consecutive hits"- Urban Dictionary Combination derives from the word Combine, which means: "to bring (two or more things or activities) together; to unite"- The Friggin' Dictionary And you can't state that Consecutive hits=/=Combo, even Smash Bros considers them Combos. Note the Max Combos in training mode which directly correlates to consecutive hits.

[@timothyc5274]

Melee is still alive and well

[@Acryte]

heeeeeeeeeeeeell yea

[@cross25011990]

Melee= the shit!

[@MrDannyloco]

you know you have no life when you can understand everything happening at real time speed.

[@xboxgamer474246]

I've been DYING to get into competitive melee ever since I realized I was crap, but if this is basic play then I'm scared D:

[@CodyRockLee13]

Well, I have a few things to say to this (all of which is positive, I'm not being negative at all in any of this). First, this is pretty top-level stuff, not basic by any means. Second, Fox is arguably the most technically demanding character in an already technically demanding game. Third, regardless of whether you do play Fox and plan on achieving tech skill of that level some day or you play any other character, never give up. Keep practicing and playing!

[@DarkStarEdd]

lol this isnt basic this is some super fox stuff....basic fox is just nair shine

[@James-pb8xu]

CodyRockLee13 fox isn't arguably, he is hands down

[@kookoo275]

Keith Wayne I think if capton falcon's meta were as developed as fox's he'd be more technically demanding

[@clip_odyssey-123]

Also this is Dark, who is known for his insane tech skill

[@Malapropositions]

All these people downing melee cause they can't fall like a marshmallow in brawl, or just straight up don't know how to play.

[@SegaMario]

From what I heard, the speed of Melee is sorta coming back in Smash Bros. 4. One of the developers said tripping ISN'T returning and the the speed is in between melee and brawl's. So it could end up being competitive like Melee was.

[@fruitytuesdayz5760]

Optimism is never good hopefully u learned that now

[@SegaMario]

@@fruitytuesdayz5760 What.

[@morycce]

this is all so second nature now. you reminded how many button inputs there are

[@SalaComMander]

Look at this Steve French guy below me. Ain't he adorable? He doesn't even know who he's mad at!

[@EasiLeo]

And he thought disabling replies would keep him safe!

[@alexanderthomas-owen613]

There's people in my school who play Rocket League and want me to stop playing "easy games" like Smash and stuff. Even though the frame-perfect nature of Melee means it requires a lot more skill to be at the top level of Melee than at Rocket League.

[@Mrhellslayerz]

+ Alexander Thomas-Owen Show them this video then lmao

[@Reshi9984]

Challenge them after school and pull out your most flashy combos

[@cleverusername6]

Teamliquid hype train

[@neilfebel5552]

From the beginning of the shorthop to the whiffed backair after the shine offstage, dark inputs 27 different things. To convert this to APM that is 810 apm which is about 7 times an "average amount" for SC2 professionals

[@ujurak3899]

That doesn't make sc easier

[@samuelandrychowski1769]

That was the most mature internet discussion I've ever seen. I wish more internet users could be like you instead of all the others who are like "OMG, YOU SUK CUZ I SAID SO!!!!"

[@rayhawkeye816]

This is the video we use to show our friends why Melee is better and cooler than the other smashes.

[@raffixd9691]

+Ray Hawkeye hahah xD nice yeah ^^ :) !

[@brookshyde5663]

This is the video I show my friends who don't believe how insanely competitive and technical Smash can be. They're over there talking about things like competitive Mortal Kombat. Then, I show them this.

[@brandonmunoz5136]

RhuanNoober It’s up there with Ultimate at #1 spot.

[@sammoreno3884]

@@Rhuan74 wavedashings not a glitch lol

[@WastedHog]

YOU MISSED TH INPUT FOR WALKING OFF THE LEDGE BEFORE THE SHINE IT WAS SO PERFECT

[@zatchiel]

Why am I laughing so much at Falcon's slo-mo death sound at 1:08?

[@tba6]

This still stands the test of time

[@AnarchoCatBoyEthan]

I would agree with everything but the rape bit, that's so fuckin lame

[@brookshyde5663]

It's like Honest Trailers said, "It's either one of the most technical fighting games ever made or the spammiest button masher ever."

[@infraredplayer]

*WEIGHT*, DID YOU SEE THAT?

[@chairwood]

W 🏋️ E 🏋️‍♀️ I 🏋️‍♂️ G 🏋️‍♀️ H 🏋️ T

[@sonicfraisheya4028]

And i always wonder why Melee was the Smash Bros. Guess i've found my answer now.

[@skaokers]

Melee is a accidental masterpiece.

[@aweome121]

it's 2024, and silver slippi players do this combo in their sleep

[@tataguy20020]

I remember when I watched this video for the first time, and I thought it was crazy. Now I think its easy.

[@ethan-se6yq]

you must be pretty good

[@tataguy20020]

I'm just really fast. Not good.

[@7ukaa]

its easy yes but its cool to see how even the not so technical stuff still requires so many inputs in that space of time along with the timing to do so. this is my first time seeing this video after playing for a year and a half and im amazed

[@Radarssbm]

it's definitely not easy lol...it's just less ridiculous than it used to be. I'd still say about half of competitive melee players couldn't pull this off in a tournament match, but any pro could comfortably.

[@Ohrami]

You guys are definitely underestimating the difficulty of this combo. This isn't the kind of stuff you see most Foxes even try to do at top level.

[@Maioneselover]

I see people stating Brawl/Meta-spam is better, because it's more fun, requires less skill and it's more balanced. I cry.

[@monjuele]

I understand that it's a party game but what makes smash so good is that it has the duality of being competitive and a party game. I don't get why sakurai would just eliminate half.

[@JFMHunter]

monjuele Lel quotes from Smash Documentary nearly years after release.

[@Mirrorthrone68]

+monjuele Today a friend of the producer is coming over to play Smash Brothers Melee. He considers himself to be pretty good, having played the game for several years.

[@uchihamadara6024]

+Mirrorthrone 68 And now, KDJ will try.

[@pushingthesky7]

I've been looking for this video forever.. very well done.

[@nintendeon]

Daaaamn, this is a really good breakdown. Next time someone tells me Melee didn't take skill, I'll show this video.

[@reddragon8167]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, "If I were to play Melee with someone who liked the game a lot, I might as well put down the controller for all the input I'd have in the fight."

[@foggysniper66]

I can't play that fast. I can't even think that fast.

[@Jakerunio]

Simon Barr Not true. Maybe against a pro, but against someone who is just very good at melee you can still win by being smart. There are people that lack any tech skill and can still win simply by being smart. Obviously at top-level play that doesn't hold up, but in an average game with a friend or something then it can.

[@reddragon8167]

Jake Thompson Not true with any of my favorite characters, like Ganondorf or Bowser.

[@Jakerunio]

Simon Barr Bowser is bad even with tech skill, and to make him do decently well with him you need to invest tons of time into developing him. DJNintendo comes to mind. Ganon on the other hand can still do reasonably well without tech skill, assuming you are smart. In this case, it means being patient and waiting for an opening or a punish by shielding then grabbing/counterattacking. Ganon does tons of damage with a single blow, so you might still stand a chance. Besides, many people who utilize excessive tech skill and aren't on a professional level could mess themselves up and loose to themselves. You could be playing Ganon, for example, against a captain falcon who is decent with him. Falcon is incredibly fast but also incredibly hard to control. He could jump too far and self destruct because of his huge leap distance and terrible recovery. You, on the other hand, might shield his attack (a knee, for example) then jab him, then down b or something (depending on the % he is at) to set up an edge guard situation, then just keep him from recovering with basic skills. No tech was used there. No wavedashing/landing, no L-cancels, not even a dash dance or short hop. And yet you took a stock because he was aggressive, and you simply shielded and punished him for it. Basics are the key to winning a game, not tech skill.

[@reddragon8167]

Jake Thompson I'm trying to imagine that playing out. He aerials my front while my back is close to the edge. I shield it. I jab. If he's at low percent I down-b (or more likely goof up and Warlock Punch) He is now suddenly offstage for whatever reason. I try to edge-guard (One of my favorite things to do in Smash. If only edge-hogging didn't make it nigh-obsolete...) I meteor his face into the abyss. Sounds like something I'd flub, but I might be able to do it after a solid week of playing. If only the whole game didn't move twice as fast as I'm imagining this all play out...

[@EditsByNero]

If Brawl wasn't made we could have had this ported over to the wii :(

[@Ramen-ms9xn]

『Nero』 Project M....

[@somedudethatdoesthings8057]

+『Nero』 Borp?

[@hazardlife9628]

Brawl is better than melee

[@Bum012]

@@hazardlife9628 true

[@ChrisTweten]

~40 inputs in 8 seconds? That's about as fast as Street Fighter IV which is often criticized for being slow.

[@TracksPyro]

Well SF4 had a faster frame rate

[@ChrisTweten]

Only the PAL version is slower (50FPS) but most tournaments run NTSC, which is the same as SFIV - 60FPS.

[@CalzumSSBM]

Chris Tweten actually the pal version has the ability to run at PAL50 and PAL60 and obviously use PAL60 for competitive play

[@ChrisTweten]

Exactly. Versions used in competitive play run at 60FPS, just like any other fighter.

[@dannyyao123]

But if I'm not mistaken (I don't really follow other fighting games other then melee so I could be wrong here), games like Street Fighter rely on specific inputs for the same combo every time. Contrast that to Melee, where the stages and percentage completely change the dynamic of the game and inputs have to be considered and executed on the spot (granted not entirely, but still to an extent).

[@CompositeSanta]

Omg this video is great! Such an in your face breakdown of whats happening really demonstrates.. A) competitive melee players are actually robots & B) I will never be that good unless I find a way to become a robot ^^

[@tuPHwUn]

@Turk3yAndGravy Combos have a much more profound meaning in Melee. None of them are programmed into the game, not even Sheik's F-tilt, F-air. Every hit can send your opponent at a different trajectory based on their Directional Influence (or DI.) Therefore, every hit in every combo takes into account where the opponent could possibly DI, and covers it. If the opponent has a jump, giving them the opportunity to jump and then predicting/punishing accordingly, CAN in fact be part of a combo.

[@J_rolly.b]

In brawl, everybody is basically samus.

[@Solipsismreal]

You mean Meta Knight? LMAO

[@SchattenDerNacht1997]

***** He means that Samus is typically played as a slow and campy character in Melee. And in Brawl every character is played slow and campy. That's probably what he meant.

[@jeffdmsl]

SchattenDerNacht1997 or the fact that samus is slow and floaty, and thats every characters in brawl

[@J_rolly.b]

jeff d Exactly

[@reddragon8167]

Can you see? The sun is shining on me. It makes me feel so free. So alive. It makes me want to survive. And the sky. It makes me feel so high. The bad times pass me by. 'Cause today is gonna be a brighter day! Can you feel the sunshine? Does it brighten up your day? Don't you feel that sometimes, you just need to run away? Reach out for the sunshine. Forget about the rain. Just think about the good times, and they will come back again. ( ..feel the sunshine.. ) Without you. There's nothing for me to do. Can you feel the sunshine too? It's gonna prove. It makes me feel brand new. When you're here, I wish you were always near. 'Cause everything's so clear. And today is gonna be a brighter day! Can you feel the sunshine? Does it brighten up your day? ( ..brighten up your day.. ) Don't you feel that sometimes, you just need to run away? Reach out for the sunshine. Forget about the rain. Just think about the good times, and they will come back again. When the sun goes down, I feel like I am waiting For another day, when the clouds go away. ( Can you feel it? Ooohoo. Can you feel it? Ohoh! Can you feel it? Ohohoh! ) Can you feel the sunshine? Does it brighten up your day? ( ..brighten up your day.. ) Don't you feel that sometimes, you just need to run away? Reach out for the sunshine. Forget about the rain. Just think about the good times, and they will come back again. Can you feel the sunshine? Does it brighten up your day? ( ..brighten up your day.. ) Don't you feel that sometimes, you just need to run away? ( ..need to run away.. ) Reach out for the sunshine. Forget about the rain. Just think about the good times, and they will come back again. Can you feel the sunshine? ( Can you feel it? ) Does it brighten up your day? ( ..brighten up your day.. ) Don't you feel that sometimes, you just need to run away? ( You just need to run away! ) Reach out for the sunshine. ( Reach out! ) Forget about the rain. Just think about the good times, and they will come back again. Whoaoh-ohoh-ohohoh! ..brighten up your day.. You just need to run away! Reach out! You gotta reach out! Come back again! You gotta reach out!

[@FashionGamer]

You kinda underrated how much input goes into aerial drift control, and overrated both how many inputs are actually need and how fast the game is in general... Only Fox and Falco use a gazillion inputs per second; it's not a roster-wide trait.

[@thespacecowboy9657]

Ghabulous Ghoti Falcon also, If you're hax lol

[@tkanklez9249]

Ghabulous Ghoti Marth is a character that's primary focus is proper spacing. Inputs on Marth are relatively slow when compared to the space animals.

[@GhabulousGhoti]

T Kanklez I suppose, but that still takes a lot of skill :P

[@tkanklez9249]

Ghabulous Ghoti oh absolutely. Spacing is not an easy thing to do, but it requires a different set of skills than really fast button pushing. I wasn't trying to detract from the difficulty of it.

[@ClevelandClips]

Falco isn't even that fast. It's really only a Fox thing. Maybe Yoshi.

[@ronjonald660]

Brawl inputs: 1.Analog stick right 2. Press A 3. If done correctly announcer should yell META KNIGHT

[@DoggyP00]

thats old news

[@DefectiveBubblebuddy]

You made the Waveshine look so easy to me now! I just have to practice it speed-wise.

[@VikingPotatoes]

DefectiveBubblebuddy Waveshining is tough for me lol. That's why I don't main Fox in melee. The four characters I always pick in Melee are Captain Falcon, Pichu, Ice Climbers and Young Link. Maybe Jigglypuff or Luigi if I want to wavedash like a maniac all day :P

[@DefectiveBubblebuddy]

VikingPotatoes Same here. I'm better with Falco than Fox. I'd prefer any of the light characters, Kirby being my main man.

[@rcdotjpeg]

+VikingPotatoes young $ lets go

[@PMDepot]

Looking at this recently, I'm not sure if that first Dair was FF'ed

[@Chalepastel]

shoulda rolled

[@alexxb115]

egorapter could beat these chumps

[@marknguyen4644]

1:08 OOOOOOOOOAAAaaaaaaaa

[@kerokeropoonito]

31 inputs in 6 seconds

[@tuPHwUn]

@Turk3yAndGravy EXACTLY, You can DI out of any Combo. So when a player LANDS a combo that means they PREDICTED where their opponent was trying to DI and punished them FURTHER and FURTHER

[@flameyboy4184]

There’s 2 types of smash fans: Melee players And humans

[@fireynight9296]

This is cool and all, but lets not forget one thing. Smash is about having fun not being able to imput 8 things a second. I still think this is amazing but can we just take a moment to reflect on why all of this was discovered? Smash is fun, and that's why all of this happened, not the other way around.

[@SatisfactoryBro]

FireyNight9 Have you ever come to think that, it's probably fun for the people who play like this? TBH seeing how fast and how powerful one can be when using a character is pretty fun for me. Sure it may not be fun for you, but that doesn't mean you can't play your own way.

[@fireynight9296]

***** No, belive me, I LOVE competative smash :) I play melee and Sm4sh competatively, but it is really stupid when people try to make other sides feel inferior, and yes, I love ALL smash games, but it is really stupid when people doon't agknowledge both sides.

[@SatisfactoryBro]

FireyNight9 Sometimes we try to keep our elitism in. Most of the time, it's unleashed prematurely, and for that I say sorry for our wild ramblings. I acknowledge Sm4sh's existence even though I don't play it, mainly because it's not as horrid of a game Brawl was. Plus, nowadays we just try to ignore the casual side to not start fights. So sorry if we come off a little strong.

[@fireynight9296]

Nah dude, it's fine, casuals and actually EVERYONE needs to just chill out. It's just a game, a party one at that, but the competative side is also a huge area of the smash games. :)

[@BaufenBeast]

FireyNight9 I like that it can be both. Unlike say, MvC, you can actually play smash casually and do fairly well against most people. It's a pretty easy game to get into. However, for those who are really good, that high skill cap is there.

[@FabulousJejmaze]

Imagine using the R or Y buttons

[@skylords5116]

can we have a side to side with brawl? I want to see how much Meele is fastest than Brawl! And why everybody hate that game!

[@doublevendetta]

Brawl is molasses compared to Melee. Also, tripping. Sakurai literally designed Brawl to be noncompetitive, because he doesn't like the competitive Melee scene. This coming from a guy who doesn't play Melee at that level, but loves fighting games and just follows their scene very closely.

[@KBX12Gaming]

@@Rhuan74 brawls meta game was meta knight. Also they're not glitches, they're exploits in the engines. Wave landing was intended, L cancelling was in smash 64, and alot of techs in newer games came from melee

[@tuPHwUn]

@Turk3yAndGravy For one thing, Wavedashing is not a glitch. In beta versions of Melee, if you airdodged through the ground, you would pass through them and die instantaneously. To FIX this GLITCH of instantaneous death, the game was made to make you slide across the surface of the ground instead of pass through it. TL;DR Wavedashing is a feature in the game, just like short hopping and L-cancelling. These were taken out of Brawl so that the game could be less competitive.

[@heterodoxagnostic8070]

Oh this is where that clip comes from, nice finally finding the original

[@Lampaluile]

That moment when you realise this is nothing/s

[@leandrodelgadoperez6321]

exactly

[@chinezeFURY]

I love the Smash community, they are doing a great job into bringing attention to the Autism spectrum

[@Infinite_Omniverse]

... What the heck?

[@chinezeFURY]

Yanna What a surprise

[@Infinite_Omniverse]

chinezeFURY I smell sarcasm. (lol) I guess you mean that there are a lot of people on the Autism spectrum that would like things like this (in this case, the technical properties of Melee). There is truth to that.

[@chinezeFURY]

Yanna Thank you for admitting it

[@Dracomut]

Please don't use a word you don't understand

[@indofokinfolkfoo3448]

Better than ultimate

[@Densester]

nigga please

[@heyitsmax_]

Crazy seeing this video 10 years later where this is just what every low-mid level slippi fox looks like

[@Tybis]

This has got to be one of the most polite and intelligent Brawl/Melee conversations I've ever seen.

[@slimstealthy]

after playing for awhile you realize this isnt all that difficult

[@ThePillarMan]

Keywords being: After playing for a while.

[@jasonallen1473]

Yea, I know what you mean. This used to look extremely fast. Now I can actually follow stuff like this and know what someone's doing as it happens.

[@PKWinning07]

That's every single game/process ever. It's called learning lol.

[@FireAssasin]

Yup, it happends with everything, mate. Playing an instrument, or melee, we learn and it becomes part of us. FUCKING, riding a bicycle seemed pretty hard when I was a kid but after practicing I got it down. It happends everytime. :3

[@nickmagrick7702]

are you serious...

[@TheMadPlayer1]

...THAT'S why I am so excited about Smash 4: Slower but good enough to play it competetively (in my eyes).

[@ColdFridge1]

The fact that people are arguing for 2-stock matches makes me very uncomfortable about its competitive potential :/

[@isthatjake]

ColdFridge1 Nah dude, the reason for 2 stock matches is just because characters die at much higher percentages (tournaments averaging around 130). It's not because the game is slow paced or anything.

[@foxtaunt]

Jake Stinson But doesn't high survivability slow down the pace of the match? You hit someone, they go flying, they make it back onto the stage (recoveries have been buffed, no edge hogging), you wait by the ledge, projectiles are spammed and the whole neutral game begins again. That's what's so great about melee, because completing a good lengthy combo means that's most likely the end of the stock. in smash4, there is vectoring and moves that rarely combo into each other.

[@isthatjake]

Keenan Ris don't get me wrong, it's nowhere near as fast as melee. But it's not as slow as brawl, and I think it's pretty viable for competitive play especially once the Wii u version comes out

[@foxtaunt]

Jake Stinson fair enough, I hope you have fun with it. But it was boring as hell to watch it streamed, and everytime somebody got an offstage kill I would be happy cause a stock would finally be gone. it's honestly more boring than watching a peach ditto.

[@sajackson]

lol this play wasnt even that fast XD

[@AtlasMillerViolin]

Yup, you are 100% correct. You can't be serious lol

[@sajackson]

Atlas Miller Violin dude watch ANY competition lol

[@AtlasMillerViolin]

***** So you're telling me that in ANY given SSBM tourney, there will always be a Fox that plays faster than this? That's a bit of a claim, no Fox spams tech like Dark does, so yes, this play was that fast.

[@sajackson]

Atlas Miller Violin hey all I'm saying is that there are plenty of times where ppl have played faster. I mean don't get me wrong. I most certainly can't even pull off most of it. I'm just saying that if I was measuring how fast something was, I would use top speed

[@JShaker]

***** But even then you're wrong. You rarely ever see plays this fast even on competitive play...

[@sadied0g]

LOOOL hadn’t watched this video in like 5 years despite having watched it soooo many times since starting competitive melee in late 2013 and will say nothing more because iykyk

[@TheEggm]

The fox player also had to input forward for awhile on that first down air off of the platform to DI forwards and hit the falcon. I'm sure there were also little inputs missed, but I don't wanna watch the whole thing that critically lol.

[@bucketfullabiscuits7865]

The casual usage of "rape" is such a product of its time lol

[@cartercartercartercar]

lmao yea that one threw my head back. then i shuddered remembering all the times i said it

[@ogreman-lll-957]

Edgy internet slang, I remember in cod zombies people used to call training “rape trains”

[@coldeed]

Wavedash just made more auto combos, which are fairly void of skill, acting like hitting more buttons in a chain that your enemy can't avoid is skill is why meta was bitched at so much in brawl, and fox gets praised for it in melee. Cultists be whining hard. For whichever game you like.

[@Lampaluile]

LOL. Stfu

[@esolipton]

ur enemy can avoid it its called di and not getting punished

[@coldeed]

esolipton You can avoid it at like 70%. Same with smash 4, exception is one game has many more 0-70 style combos. Either way the differance is so minimal, its usually something like melee getting 2 combos compared to 3 in S4 and really its a stupid state where fans of either game swear shit like "more punishing mistakes are harder" when a more punishing game just makes it harder to avoid death in melee while S4 puts more challenge in killing the enemy, as it is harder to edge guard and smash out with the exception of certain combos/spiking etc. Either way arguing between the two is pointless, considering even with competitive scenes in both games they are designed with party game aspects and don't have a sole focus on pvp skill roofs and appealing to solely competitive players.

[@Fieryvortex48]

coldeed Which is why Sakurai is a dumbass. You don't just make a fighting game, call it a party game, and say that it shouldn't even be competitive. Fighting games, by nature, are designed to be competitive.

[@coldeed]

Fieryvortex48 He does not want it to be purely comp or casual.

[@FlameUser64]

Shit like this is why I prefer Brawl. Inputs can get away with being MUCH less precise due to the nice 10-frame buffer. Thank you Sakurai! (No thank you for dodging out of hitstun after 16 frames or tripping, though.)

[@FlameUser64]

I prefer Brawl from the standpoint of ease of control. I do not play either game competitively, but to me Brawl plays better because I feel I'm able to move my character in a simple and intuitive fashion. Also, in Brawl, the single biggest balance problem is Meta Knight. With him out of the picture, there's a pretty decent number of viable characters all clustered together. Even then, between MK in Brawl and Fox in Melee, Fox takes up a bigger percentage of the competitive scene in Melee than MK does in Brawl, strictly in terms of usage statistics.

[@scrambleeggpregame]

***** So you prefer Brawl because you aren't good enough to use tech skill properly? lol.

[@FlameUser64]

***** Actually, yes. Exactly that. I'm not good enough to use tech skill properly, and I have slight disabilities in fine-motor skills and hand-eye coordination so I might never be *able* to get good enough to use tech skill properly.

[@dovekie3437]

Brawl just isn't fun though, as much as we all wished it was. I had more fun playing melee when I didn't know tech skills than playing brawl without tech skills.

[@FlameUser64]

Dovekie Actually, Brawl was more fun before I taught the CPUs to SDI. Level 9 CPUs not using SDI = pretty easy despite all the perfect-shielding and frame-perfect sidestep dodges and Counters. Level 9 CPUs spamming frame-perfect SDI that I cannot even do myself = pretty hard when they don't decide to self-destruct or do other stupid stuff, and nowhere near as fun since there's no such thing as a safe attack. I can hit a CPU dead-centre with Pit's NAir, and they'll SDI out having taken only 3 hits for 1% total damage and then punish me with an aerial. I can hit a CPU dead-on with Pit's FSmash, and they'll SDI *up* over the second hit and punish me with an aerial. If I hit a CPU with the front hit of Pit's DSmash at too low a percentage, they SDI behind me - traveling so far that they avoid the second hit - get launched back in front and punish me with a tilt, aerial, smash attack, or grab before the endlag is over. I wish I was joking. And see, for me Melee was less fun because I couldn't get over how fast my character fell. I couldn't hit an aerial move without ending up in landing lag and being punished, and I didn't know about L-cancelling. And trying to use an aerial to approach another platform, like on the Super Mario Brothers 3 stage? Self-destruct almost as often as not, or just get punished. It was really hard for me to properly time an aerial attack to actually hit in Melee because of how fast characters fell. Either I started too early and the hit came out near the peak of the jump way above their head, or I started too late and the hit never came out at all.

[@chargecloud]

phantom hitboxes, Yoyo with ness, wavedashing, SDI, Nipple spikes, ....and many more character specific techs...A.T.s are generally minor glitches in games most if not all aren't intentional, but they do make the game deeper and more fun.

[@driftwood42]

ok i didnt think about it like that, its been so long since ive played melee consistently and ive been playing brawl in tournaments and stuff, it didnt really occur to me what changes had been made to characters to balance them from melee to brawl

[@Convicted_Melon]

Using Fox as an example as to how fast melee is, is a little skewed. He's the most technical character in the game. Most other characters don't require that degree of finesse and twitchiness.

[@Vyomesh839]

yeah, this is like saying that SF4 is super technical when you show them a "How to play Gen" tutorial.

[@ITR]

"Just how fast could it be played" Why wouldn't you choose the most technical character if you wanted to show of that?

[@Convicted_Melon]

MMMIK13 Because it's porr representation of the overall speed of the game. If you refer to the title, the intent is to show how fast MELEE is; not how fast Fox in melee is.

[@ITR]

Toomany .Toastuhs But this video didn't say it wanted to show the overall speed, it wanted the max speed

[@Convicted_Melon]

MMMIK13 The video is titled "How Fast is Melee?"