How John Piper Processes the Moral Failures of His Historical Heroes

John Piper-founder and teacher of desiringGod.org, chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary, and TGC Council member-on how we process the moral failures of our historical heroes (such as George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther King Jr., and Martin Luther) even as we continue to learn from them.
www.thegospelcoalition.org/ar...

[@KeithThompson52]

I have been waiting for a preacher to touch on this subject for years.

[@SimpleManGuitars1973]

I had a preacher friend that committed a terrible sin once and when I found out about it I just felt like quitting myself. Then I went home and read the first 2 verses of the 12th chapter of Hebrews. Then I thought about the 11th chapter of Hebrews. The faith of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Sara, and others is mentioned. Then I started thinking about the fact that yes Noah built the ark and his family was saved but he then got off of it and got drunk. Yes Abraham was a great man of faith but he also lied by omission about his relationship with Sara out of the fear of man. Yes Moses was a great man but he also disobeyed God openly. THEN those first 2 verses of the TWELFTH chapter REALLY hit me because it says "Seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of WITNESSES..." and then says "LOOKING UNTO JESUS" and I realized that all these men are great witnesses but they are not objects worthy of worship. ONLY Jesus is the PUREST EXAMPLE that we can literally follow every step he ever took. I've said a million times since then that verse saved my ministry. I hope this helps somebody else!

[@ericaruggles6309]

DuckTalesWooHoo1987 thank you for this.

[@debijeanpeck]

DuckTalesWooHoo198. Thank you!

[@HarryNebs]

so good. Thank you and God bless you.

[@christopherskipp1525]

It's always a toss up between the treachery of Christians and the treachery of all the every day pagans encountered. Piper sounds like a Calvinist, as usual.

[@jirensentry7609]

This is why I love John Piper. This is why I need I must fully and faithfully trust Jesus Christ. Because He made this man so honest, sincere, insightful and caring. Thank you so much Pastor!

[@sneekapeek707]

Excellent. perhaps also fair to add that it should drive us to examine our own hearts and beware of our own self deception.

[@danielforsythe5305]

I found this incredibly helpful. It is sobering to be reminded that all men are sinners, in need of grace. It's a good reminder to not put men used of God upon a pedestal, but to be able to acknowledge their sin. "God uses crooked sticks to draw straight lines."

[@Ancient_Oracle]

Blessings pastor Piper! Amen

[@erichchristian8743]

Amen but if I may say one thing- let the rawness off the truth be raw. That's what always bothered me about many of these cases is the tendency to sweep it under the rug or not bring it into light unless it's pressed into by one or the other. I know that hurts but that's how I seek to address my own sin and depravity, I expect the same of others in that regard.

[@ChristoferTapiheru]

brother John is one of not that many of my personal heroes :)

[@ykd818]

Moses sin was an action vs the other 4 guys in recent history you named were lifestyles of sin... Huge difference

[@yjk5737]

MLK accomplished a lot of great things and I think that makes it difficult for Christians to question his salvation. He didn't believe the Resurrection was real though and that is central to the faith.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Wow that's a major error in doctrine. The resurrection is linked to spiritual new life aka being born from above.

[@carld2796]

"whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation"

[@TheSwatmachine]

"Thou art the man" John Piper! I am your age and I have been blessed by your ministry for years. I always held you in high esteem, UNTIL in these latter years you have JOINED YOURSELF with men like Rick Warren, those of T4G, TGC, The Passion Conference, Beth Moore, Hillsong, etc. 2Corinthians 6:14-18 is still in the Bible too, Bro. John! There are a growing number of grounded, faithful, believers who have separated from you due to your fellowship with such as these, and YOU MUST KNOW WHY. We are to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness". No matter who you are, "Evil communications corrupt good manners." "Can two walk together except they be agreed"? My counsel, dear brother, is you take this to the Lord AND SEEK HIS FACE AND HIS WILL. I just quoted His Word. Will His will be any different? "Thou art the man!" What will you do now?

[@aunttiasbackyard5028]

What is wrong with those ppl you named?

[@TheSwatmachine]

@@aunttiasbackyard5028 The information is abundantly available online. You can start with KZbin to find your answer.

[@HearGodsWord]

Sounds like bitterness.

[@noblerare]

Who's here after the news about Ravi Zacharias?

[@ounkwon6442]

My concern is not much about personal morality. How should I think of Martin Luther - father of Christian antisemitism. He may be Lutheran but I dot count him as a Christian. May I see him on the way to hell or heaven?

[@rdrift1879]

Luther was not the "father" of Christian anti-Semitism. He was a son of it, however.

[@chipsmydog]

God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

[@1969cmp]

There is a difference between 'foolish' for the Gospel and being a pattern adulterer.

[@thirstypilgrim97]

Dr. Piper... do you think all nationalities have the right to exist amongst each other under a single culture? Or in other words, does Japan have a right to stay "Japanese" or should it become another America?

[@huntarama9375]

Probably should have mentioned John Calvin he didnt have a problem with slow roasting heritics or specifically people who didnt agree with him. The lesson we should learn is not to ascribe to people what should be ascribed to god . We give apostleship to those who are not apostles and we ascribe biblical status to writings that are not biblical. Problem is I attend a church full of sinners . If we start excommunicating people I,d be pretty playing the guitar to myself on a Sunday morning .

[@philipbenjamin4720]

The other thing not to rush to judgement on is the work of these theologians. Don't consider them a great only because others - even many others - do so. Instead ask whether what they write has been transformative in YOUR life.

[@danielmann5427]

Why would you call owning a slave or slaves a sin or moral failure. Would not the apostle paul be guilty of promoting sin if he told masters how to treat slaves and slaves how to obey your master. God made laws regarding slavery and how it was to be done properly. after all to show us how we who are in christ are His slaves. Don't read into slavery the perverted messed view so many in America has.

[@resistenciacrista2298]

Does slavery is morally wrong according to the Bible? I don't think so. If it were, why Paul didn't say this to Philemon. I am not saying to begin with this practice again. I am just saying that the past men didn't see this issue as wrong accordind to the Bible. And they were right in their interpretation. Bible does not say slavery is morally wrong. Even in the new testment. Nor does it say it is right.

[@tiruncarswell3326]

Exodus 21:16 - Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death. Many American slaves and their ancestors were stolen for the most part, I think it is safe to say it is sin.

[@BronzeLincolns81]

FYI, there has been no evidence brought forth regarding MLK's infidelity. i'd be interested in seeing some.

[@jehovahuponyou]

PERHAPS IF YOU OPENED YOUR EYES, YOU MIGHT.

[@MagnificentFiend]

See David Garrow's _Bearing the Cross_ and the statements of his wife.

[@robertrobbins5691]

The tape recordings by the FBI and the decision to postpone release suggest they must be very revealing and show a side of MLK, Jr. that was well known amongst his closest confidantes.

[@ParaSniper2504]

John Piper should read the Babylonian Talmud and then he will at least understand Luther's "virulent anti-semitism!" Luther did not begin that way. He learned Hebrew from a Jewish scholar and read Jewish works in the original Hebrew. If Piper is without sin let him step forward. Piper was born in the 20th Century, he has no historical idea or experience of life in the previous centuries! Get real John!

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Luther tried to save/convert the German Jews with what he believed was the true gospel, but they despised it and were very bad in their response to it. This I think was why Luther's response was so harsh. Those days religious liberty wasn't a set value yet either, but I do think Luther was still wrong in the hatred he exhibited in his writing against the Jews. Not that that makes the Jews right in their Christ hatred far from it.

[@altocalice2873]

MLK anti semitism?never heard about that

[@walternoteboom376]

Hi Ranah, Piper is talking about Martin Luther being anti-semitic. So not Martin Luther King Jr. from the last century, but Martin Luther who is credited with starting the reformation of the 1500s :) Blessings!

[@dougdozier612]

It's ok to say MLK was not a Christian. Say it with me, MLK was not a Christian. It is also ok to say Edwards and Whitefield were Christian even though they owned slaves. God hates man stealing and has Specefic regulations for slavery in the OT and by the way the NT (See Philemon, Ephesians 6:5-8.This does not mean we march for slavery in our society TODAY. It does mean history is complex. Just because someone owned slaves does not mean they were not Christian. It would be ignorant to come to this conclusion. Let history speak for itself. Good video but lets leave MLK out of the discussion👌

[@FRN2013]

Piper left out John Calvin's murder of Michael Servetus, which was worse than even the worst of the sins Piper mentioned (King's frequent adultery).

[@Louis2decaro]

Calvin did not murder Michael Servetus. Servetus escaped a Roman Catholic death row for his heresy and paraded himself in Geneva somewhat defiantly and was apprehended. Calvin was not the judge and jury of Servetus; he was a political prisoner in a time when there was no distinction between church and state. Calvin appealed to Servetus for him to recant and he refused, and while it is true that Calvin ultimately approved of the execution, he did not "murder" him. Servetus was executed by the authorities of Geneva. Note too that becauses Servetus was an escaped con from a RC death row, the authorities at Geneva had a serious problem with Servetus. It wasn't just about him, but the political impact and significance that he carried into Geneva as an escaped heretic. Had they spared Servetus in Geneva, the RC church could easily have accused the Reformation of compromising on the core doctrine of the Trinity. So ultimately Servetus died, not because Calvin "murdered" him, but because the cost of his being spared was politically far worse than his dying. It's easy to judge people from our bubble of individualized democracy and the separation of church and state. But most societies in history didn't have this as a given. An ugly episode, but it's not historically correct to to portray this as Calvin murdering Servetus.

[@carld2796]

Louis, it sounds like your saying the ends justifies the means. He saved Protestantism from the Romans by a death sentence that appeased them. He may not have "murdered" but he did approve and carry it out, according to you for political reasons. He was somewhat like Saul regarding Stephen. Saul didn't pick up a stone, but he did approve it. Would that be a fair comparison?

[@rdrift1879]

Scripture absolutely gives warrant for the power of the state to coerce doctrine, if one accepts the Law of Moses as an appropriate model for civil government. The distinction between the Old and New covenants was not as clear to Calvin and many others in the 16th century as we would have it today.

[@danielmann5427]

@Mark OnTheBlueRidge Saul was in authority and gave orders. John Calvin as already pointed was not a judge or jury.

[@TrustinJC]

We cannot justify the rotten fruit of men and women because we like some of the things they taught. We are told that we will know them by their fruit. We know Martin Luther's fruit was rotten. He called the epistle of James one of straw and that it should be burned. He said peasants that rebelled against wicked land barons should be killed either in public with a trial or in secret without one. He taught that we cannot out sin God's grace, and even wrote that a friend should go out and purposely sin. How then can you say the person should be judged by what they taught? It is by their fruit that we will know if they are a wolf in sheep's clothing. And upon recognizing their rotten fruit, we must assume their teachings are also corrupt. Scripture does not support what Piper is teaching here. Face it. Luther was a false teacher.

[@TrustinJC]

What exactly about rotten fruit do you not understand? why do you justify rotten fruit? Just because others taught something similar to Luther only identifies them as being false teachers as well. If you don't consider what did and said to be rotten fruit, then what exactly do you define as rotten fruit? If 99% percent of Christian Europeans are racists and anti-Jewish, then I would consider then every bit as false as Luther. what exactly about promoting murder in secret do you not understand? It isn't enough to not use the work of a false teacher. We are to be watchmen and expose false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing. Was Jesus wrong to call the Pharisees the names that he did? Was he wrong to chase people out of the temple courtyard with a whip? Why do you object to false teachers being exposed?

[@jaredlovely3439]

TrustinJC i read your words carefully. as passionate as it was, its nearly void of anything resembling love.