How Much Money I Make As A USPS Mail Carrier!

[@georgep2724]

$100,426 as a regular with 24 years of service. Could have made more but got off the list in June. Some regulars at top pay on the list for all year make $110,000-125,000. We should get a 10-15 percent raise so money is solid middle class not to mention all the lifelong benefits so I am very thankful. Merry Christmas everyone and a great New Year.

[@MailmanNick]

Happy holidays

[@Ram-rm2gz]

Nice what location are you in? I’m in Cali 1st year in

[@Ram-rm2gz]

Converted in 9 months

[@KnowledgeSeeker78491]

Make that money mailman

[@juanfriassilfa8322]

I believe it

[@NickP16]

$117,000 as a 8 year Career Carrier The biggest thing that sucks about our job. Nick, is how long we have to work to make top pay, I still have like five years. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles at USPS

[@rsimmons1980]

I'm a government lawyer and that is more than my income. I heard USPS pays well for government attorneys.

[@dumamay283]

how many hours a week are you working and what's your hourly rate? cause 117k, the math don't work out

[@Be_Wavy_Adrian]

@@dumamay283carriers work between 50-70 hours a week, so a lot of overtime

[@dominicgalloro2567]

9 years for me. Lost at least $125k

[@beetlejuice4822]

Thanks, Nick, for appreciating and loving your jobs, past or present. I bet you are one of the best employee an employer can have. Keep it up!

[@Arteist2020]

Bro how is it that you’re an inspiration to me and I’m 33. Starting school in January. This job is tough, but I have job security as well. I don’t know if I necessarily see myself working as a mail carrier forever but I’m gonna use this job to pay for my school in the meantime. Always enjoy watching your content Nick. Your videos are something I look forward to. Thanks again man! Merry Christmas and happy new year!

[@MailmanNick]

I appreciate that, use this job to reach your goals.

[@JG-di8oi]

I'm 33 and thinking about switching careers to be a mailwoman (:

[@amyzalkin3443]

Greetings and well wishes for 2024! I'm new to your channel and appreciate your candid content on this process. And a big thank-you to all the amazing carriers out there making sure I get my mail and packages. In fact, just yesterday, I too applied for and passed 474 assessment for a CCA here in NE Indiana. $19.33 hourly. Im still waiting on background/fingerprint onboarding. I didn't know all the details surrounding city and "rural" routes with differing career paths/time-frames. And, I know realistically this isn't a cake walk, it's a TON of walking and navigating, even though, I'm currently very active in facilities maintenance/custodial, working in a 120K sq. foot building lugging around cleaning equipment to multiple floors. Although I'm not a spring chicken anymore, I thought I might like to give this a go as I know my vicinity very well from previous delivery jobs, restoration/ crime scene cleaning, w/solid cust. service, and driving skills. I'm open to any tips, tricks, or suggestions. Fingers crossed. Thank-you again and a great New Year all!

[@amyzalkin3443]

Appreciate all your hard work

[@CadanWright]

Yoo I’m a carrier too. Keep grinding!! Happy holidays!

[@MailmanNick]

Thank you for the support

[@Jcruz388]

Happy anniversary Nick! Made 80k as a 4 year carrier

[@natedog6447]

I’m trying to get in as a cca or rca. I want the cca spot cause of more hours and it’s faster to be hired in. My application is in the pre hire list step. And I did my background check a couple of days ago, so hopefully I get the job! I’m from the Rockford area in illinois so I’m glad I found your channel!

[@MailmanNick]

I know where that's it. I'm from south suburbs of Chicago

[@JPZ1313]

Gratitude is a wonderful thing. This guy is full of it and he will get everything he desires.

[@Chi_Till_I_Die773]

I’ve been carrying for 8 winters now and there are 2 carriers above me who I’ve never met . They’ve been on injury for that long so it’s kinda unbelievable. Merry Christmas Nick

[@MailmanNick]

Crazy, Merry Christmas 🎄

[@bfun4615]

LOL! I tell people the same thing about getting fired from USPS! I'm one that will not call out and I have my annual leave rollover maxed out and am forced to take time off by the end of the annual leave year.

[@MailmanNick]

I never hear of someone being let go. It doesn't happen

[@monolith94]

@@MailmanNickwe had a janitor get fired for making physical violence threats. Dude was a complete scumbag from head to toe

[@monolith94]

@@MailmanNickwe also had a guy who a couple of months into being a regular they caught him not delivering a bunch of mail, what a loser

[@JRfofo17]

I’m going to be a CCA I have my orientation by February five I’m ready to this new challenge

[@Dezrah1217]

@JRfofo17 Good luck

[@AJSchnell]

How is it?

[@arfriedman4577]

Happy holidays and many blessings. May you have a wonderful life.

[@davidk5093]

I'm happy for you, It's good to see a fellow Chicago citizen doing good.😎👍 You inspire me.

[@jennammons677]

So awesome. Super happy for u👍

[@mailmanjoe]

What gripes me is the deductions take like a third of our checks. 🤦

[@MailmanNick]

Over $1k gets taken out makes you sick doesn't it

[@angelaflinn2988]

Thanks Nick... You are a big inspiration. I got an offer Friday, filled out Background check. Going for fingerprint next week. Hoping to be working soon !!!! CCA Independence, MO

[@MailmanNick]

💪🏻

[@MrFunflames]

Ayy James crews here I see you!

[@Lord.Elijahlayah]

How soon do you work after fingerprinting I do that tomorrow

[@James-ql8bo]

You can make pretty good money as long as your not a rual carrier. A rual carrier is the only job that will put you in debt quickly when your vehicles start giving trouble. Engine, transmission, brakes, high gas prices and much more. USPS is always looking to cut your route every way they can. I would not recommend anyone to be a rual carrier. He saying what he made but as a rual carrier always deduct what you have spent on your vehicles and taxes and then tell me what you made for the year. Not getting fired maybe at his office but I've seen several people get fired and just because they couldn't do the route fast enough.

[@MailmanNick]

Our rurals use llvs

[@James-ql8bo]

@@MailmanNick They don't even offer us any or I would take it and a pay cut

[@PssszztYo]

38k been a regular for 5 months. T6 for 3 months. So about 6 months of work and am at 38k

[@MailmanNick]

Keep getting that money

[@danadane4375]

Wow you R a very interesting Guy ! And that’s what I’m going to Do look at the Long haul journey with US Postal Service. I’m getting Ready to except my position offer . My aunt purchased her small Apartment Rental Property While working at the post office 16 years Ago .

[@astrobot702]

I'm gonna try to go RCA, and then later contemplate CCA before getting permanent spot. I wanna learn that and enjoy the neighboring towns (in South Dakota) My current employer works me like a dog but the pay would be better here. I wanna go to Australia in a year. This would definitely get me there. I'm a manager at Hardware store going nowhere. This vid motivates me

[@MailmanNick]

👍🏻

[@extraicey]

thank you for this. going into academy on the 20th!

[@christopherduran5302]

Congrats on making Regular status Nick. Just subscribed to your channel. I will be starting orientation on March 11th as a CCA, and its my understanding that CCAs wear "regular" clothes while on the job, until they get that uniform voucher (after 90/ 120 days?). Can you give me an idea of what I can wear while on my routes, thats appropriate prior to purchasing actual uniforms? For context, I live in Arizona, and it's getting ready to heat up in the next few months, and it will be 110 to 115 in June/ July. I was thinking just keep it simple with a light blue/ or postal blue shirt, with blue-ish/ gray cargo shorts. A navy bucket hat for protection.

[@MailmanNick]

Postal colors is best. Bring water. Wet towels, fans.

[@christopherduran5302]

@MailmanNick Thank you! Appreciate the input. I was told via email that I should receive instructions 1 week prior to orientation. But I definitely want to get postal color clothing, because at the moment I have mostly blue jeans with white/ black, or red shirts. Also, I've been told that those LLV carrier vehicles might not have A/C and only dash mounted fans because they are old? Is that accurate? So, in terms of staying cool in the summer, obviously bring lots of water, maybe a white-long sleeve undershirt, sunscreen, bandana for neck, etc. Awesome channel, by the way!. Thank you for the information that you share! It's extremely helpful!

[@jojolopez177]

@@christopherduran5302how is it ? I’m thinking about signing up . I’m at ups but they are cutting my hours smh

[@mrriotshield840]

Man im 38 will be 39 in july tired of working in a warehouse for 17 n hr n i do 45 miles a wk how much miles you do a day or should i say stops

[@MailmanNick]

Depends on the office

[@TeamWickedOpinion]

Ahhh ok. The cauliflower ear now makes sense. Did you ever go pro?

[@MailmanNick]

I did pro grappling but only had 3 MMA fights

[@monsterchoon]

It’s not bad actually , get paid to stay in shape , u have people making 100k+ but sit on a chair 10 hrs a day eating junk , of course u have in shape Office workers and bad shape mailmen but u get the idea

[@angelaflinn2988]

I've been in a sit down job for a long time. It ruins your health. Looking forward to being in an active career.

[@kimbradley4764]

Happy anniversary Nick!

[@MailmanNick]

3 years!

[@champbenzino5358]

I just got hired as a reg mail carrier. So I’m just asking questions to see what I’m about to run into so I guess I’ll will be off on Sunday and b working crazy Monday after the weekend

[@MailmanNick]

The day after holiday is always crazy

[@angelamonk716]

Congrats Nick , question did the post office or do they give any type of Christmas Bonus?

[@MailmanNick]

Unfortunately no Christmas bonus for carriers

[@angelamonk716]

@@MailmanNick WOW 🤯

[@bIockchain34]

I can't do mail. USPS was the only job I just upped and quit. I do have a love hate relationship with big brown though. 📦

[@MailmanNick]

Mail isn't easy

[@DJ-jo5ru]

Stay blessed man 🙏🏾

[@MailmanNick]

🙏🏼

[@ROCKNYC-cr1qt]

Hey Nick! Just curious what you meant when you said you make double pay after 10 hrs of work. Usually OT pay is 1.5x after 40 hrs a week? Thanks man, enjoy your vids!

[@MailmanNick]

It's called penalty overtime. It's double time.

[@ROCKNYC-cr1qt]

@@MailmanNick thanks man. Just looked it up...any single day over 10 hrs is double the pay. Cool! I'm starting soon so I guess I should be expecting some OT. Thx! 🤙🏻

[@ROCKNYC-cr1qt]

@@MailmanNick 1 more question, when u started as a CCA, did you have to carry/ deliver heavy packages and boxes on a daily basis? Or was it mostly regular mail and occasionally some big boxes/ packages? Thx again..

[@MailmanNick]

@@ROCKNYC-cr1qt lots of packages

[@Bigmatt7]

Think I'll stick with my class B tanker. It's not incredible pay, but 35 hour is decent with overtime.

[@dumamay283]

just applied to usps. how do i become a PTF and a regular? just keep working for 2 years? or do i need to apply for something extra? and for the union, do i need to apply for it or am i automatically in it?

[@MailmanNick]

You automatically hit PTF after 2 years of being a CCA. You sign up for union in academy

[@dumamay283]

@@MailmanNickthe union costs extra? they take out of my paycheck? IS it worth it, what benefits do i get being part of the union? Also brother, if i had a PTF, that is considered being a regular?

[@MailmanNick]

@@dumamay283 PTF is career, not regular. They take union dues out every pay check. They defend you and get you extra money

[@T1M-NYTE]

Hey nick I start my orientation tomorrow in Pittsburgh I’m little confused the position said career Carrier instead of city carriers is there a difference?

[@MailmanNick]

You're probably being hired as a PTF

[@T1M-NYTE]

Ptf is that good or bad?

[@MailmanNick]

@@T1M-NYTE it's a career carrier which is a step up from CCA

[@T1M-NYTE]

Hey nick me a few other carriers was told to arrive at a Certain time for Academy when we arrived at said time we was told that we were late and had to reschedule for next week but wait for email from one of the hiring managers is this normal?

[@MailmanNick]

@@T1M-NYTE yeah they don't tolerate being late but I guess it's just a waiting game now

[@barano9729]

As a newer employee at the post office suggest you contribute as much as you can to your tsp. Go Roth.

[@MarkWolford-on6us]

Thank you. Starting the academy July 15th.

[@violetazapata9053]

Hi Nick, did you recommend apply for Full time?

[@MailmanNick]

Most CCA's work full time hours

[@elainabradley7224]

Awesome pay !!!! I know you work so hard !!!! Wow

[@slydog005]

I worked with a major airlines for 5yrs, had all overtime and never once made over 64k and that was at known famous airport for 2 major airlines

[@JSRadetzke]

Nick how old are you brother? I’m about to go back to the post office. I worked for them in 2016 & worked 2 years as a cca & got no regular position when they promised it. I left because I was salty but I’m coming back after all those years. I think it was my favorite job even though they worked me like a dog but at least the checks will look amazing! Looking forward to get back out there & getting where you are.

[@MailmanNick]

I'm going to be 30 in June

[@JSRadetzke]

@@MailmanNick sweet man. So I still have time to make up for lost time lol 😂 appreciate the videos man. Getting me excited to get back.

[@michaelhallier4300]

130K here, top step but still a lot of OT.

[@Nuttiirishguy71]

Nick. What is the overtime:hours like in January? I’m Hearing mixed messages that it will be dead at post office and no work to it will Be busy with lots of people taking time off

[@MailmanNick]

With the bad weather there's a lot of call offs usually

[@loudandproud9070]

What’s your pay rate and how many hours do you work per week as fulltime, seems you get more life work balance as a regular and only the first two years are hell Merry Christmas 🎄

[@MailmanNick]

I sign the odl list. My base salary currently is $46k but my raise coming soon I'll be at $48k.

[@MailmanNick]

I work 55-60 hours

[@chiconspace]

Question .. i just got offered a city carrier position to a different city.. im looking to get reassigned. Currently, im a mail handler and my current step is step F.. what would my pay be if i transition over to a city carrier ..? Thanks

[@MailmanNick]

As a regular or CCA?

[@Be_Wavy_Adrian]

Just got hired as a PTF, did my orientation yesterday, took my driving classes today, now I got my exam tmr, how hard is the driving exam?

[@MailmanNick]

Common sense just make sure to pay attention

[@Be_Wavy_Adrian]

@@MailmanNick got it, thank you!

[@rouelpadogdog3519]

Nick do you idea about what it is in Wilmette Illinois as City Carrier? Got an offer for an opening as career city carrier. Currently CCA right now at Grand Rapids MI.

[@MailmanNick]

I'm not too familiar with that area to be honest. Being career is a good thing

[@RoBFDiY]

Your a great guy!!

[@jonathanlopez9401]

Hey brotha I'm in the middle of the fingerprints exam in Los Angeles for cca but I live in orange county. I really want the job I do, but I feel like it is far. But you did mention they'll ask how far you live to relocate you? Is this for sure? I really want the job and I might have to sacrifice to drive all the way to Los Angeles everyday to work for usps in LA. Please help with advice please

[@MailmanNick]

They did for me but i can't guarantee it. Id just wait until a closer option pops up because they update daily

[@popclutch_100]

I'm in the processing of getting hired. Does the $36 an include in Florida as a RCA?

[@MailmanNick]

I'm not sure rca pay scale

[@popclutch_100]

@@MailmanNick I appreciate you replying back to me. I'm starting out at $20.38 an hour.

[@Kurdocummentary]

How many stops u guys do a day? Or how many hours / day?

[@MailmanNick]

I have over 700 stops not including my overtime

[@Kurdocummentary]

@ thats a lot.I was doing 200 stops for amazon and wasnt fun very hard. But i asume you dont actually like get out if your truck 700 times. Some house / apartment comunuty has there mailbox all together if u count thise as 1 would u do 300 stops? Im trying to get to the industry wanna see if im able to do it

[@MailmanNick]

@Kurdocummentary I have a walking route with apartments I hit every part

[@MailmanNick]

@Kurdocummentary you're definitely able

[@Kurdocummentary]

@@MailmanNick thank you

[@CurtisKnight-ko8on]

When you said you got every holiday off and Sundays off, are you enjoying life more even though you made less money? Or does it bother you

[@MailmanNick]

I'm enjoying my life while still making a decent living

[@brandonholloman6835]

Do you have to have driving experience to be a CCA.And how much money do you bring home I know the get paid every 2 weeks?

[@MailmanNick]

It helps and checks depends how much you work and your hourly. I take home around $2500 every 2 weeks

[@brandonholloman6835]

@@MailmanNick Ooo wow that's really good 💪💪💪

[@MailmanNick]

@@brandonholloman6835 I'm working over 60 hours a week

[@brandonholloman6835]

@@MailmanNick that's what I want that don't bother me

[@brandonholloman6835]

@@MailmanNick Can you make 6 figures working at the post office???

[@dkk-lb1kp]

The bottom line is that it’s a tough job…, if your married or have a family for get about it!!!! Also in the beginning money bad $21.60 long hours bad management…. Great job for people that don’t have a life tho👍

[@MailmanNick]

I still have a life working 60 hours. It's definitely not for everyone though.

[@_MoneyMike_]

@@MailmanNickyou get overtime pay?

[@MailmanNick]

@@_MoneyMike_ yes and double pay

[@_MoneyMike_]

@@MailmanNick sheesh that’s good pay!

[@mikec8480]

Do a PTF get two days off or you have to be a real regular

[@MailmanNick]

Depends on the office. When I was a PTF, nothing changed other than the career benefits. Once I turned regular I finally had the option to work 5 days.

[@slimsyparfaits5493]

Hey nick did your brother only work on sundays when he was with usps ?

[@MailmanNick]

Yes he was an arc they only work Sunday and holidays. He's now full time security

[@slimsyparfaits5493]

Seems like the perfect job for a college student like myself. Thank you nick seems like a perfect part time job for me. @@MailmanNick

[@rogerfabrosalberto]

Hi Sir Nick, I hope to be a city carrier soon. I am on the process of hiring now. Whats your piece of advice for us being a new carrier? thank you so much . New subscriber here. god bless

[@MailmanNick]

Take it a day at a time. Check weather. Ask questions. Dress for the season.

[@dumamay283]

What is your hourly pay now? And how long does it take/how many years to get to $36/hr?

[@MailmanNick]

Comes out to $23.13 an hour. Takes like 12 years total. Raises every year. Thankful

[@dumamay283]

@@MailmanNick 12 years...damn

[@rickjames8087]

Hey nick I have a question whats the point of a shop stewart of the postoffice?

[@MailmanNick]

They file grievances and are the carriers work lawyer

[@rickjames8087]

@@MailmanNick What if they dont do that. We have a really bad one in our office. All he says is he doesnt get compensated for the job. I got annoyed at him when he said that and told him he shouldnt be a shop stewart then he started to scream at me. What should I do i never yelled at him

[@rickjames8087]

​@@MailmanNick I injured my foot outside of work and required surgery. I tryed to come back early the doctor didnt recommend me to come back but I have to pay rent. Im unassigned to routes and asked them if a can hold down a route that is half driving half walking. They laughed and said absolutly not. I spoke to my shop stewart about the situation and he replied saying what do you expect your back to work. The next day I contacted my doctor and i will have alot of restrictions of what work I can do. I never got injured in my life so i never knew any of this. I worked for 1 day and im taking off till i see my doctor Jan 8.

[@rickjames8087]

I thought a shop stewart should be on your side and help you in situations. In fact he is actually my own personal mail carrier. I spoke to him and said comming back to work soon. Not once did he say anything about doctor restrictions or anything.

[@MailmanNick]

@@rickjames8087 go above him and talk to your union president. He sounds like a lazy do nothing that's not a good Steward

[@doreengarcia8958]

I’m going through process now I work from home and have secound job as well

[@MailmanNick]

Hopefully you get good overtime so you won't need a second job

[@awakenedpennslyvanian5194]

How much do class a drivers make? And what experience you need?

[@MailmanNick]

The mto? Hit up everything USPS with Jay h channel he knows more than me

[@cruisercody3941]

I made 123000 this year max carrier in Houston you have to file your article 8 grievances and you will hit 100k

[@georgep2724]

Nice work! I could have made more than 100k but was getting tired of working my day off. 5 days a week and overtime here and there for a maxed out regular probably is 85k.

[@GamingDaily]

What percentage did you set up for TSP contributions? I am finally going to get converted to PTF in January and was thinking I should max out the contributions. I just dont know what the max is

[@MailmanNick]

5% is most they will match

[@GamingDaily]

@@MailmanNick I understand that but what’s the most we can contribute? Can we go beyond the 5%?

[@MailmanNick]

@@GamingDaily there's a limit but I'm not exactly sure what it is

[@NickP16]

@@MailmanNick yes you can go beyond the 5%, I have mine set at 20%. Right now the cap is set at $22,500 a year.

[@andreasm6951]

The max is somewhere between 20-25%. BUT you can also contribute to your Roth TSP as well if you want to go beyond it. ✊✊

[@tanana3000]

Can you explain what a float set is?

[@MailmanNick]

It's a set of routes a carrier does on the regulars day off. Let's say routes 5,6,7,8,9 are their float set. They do those routes when the regular of those routes are off.

[@iiiii4560]

What shoes do you wear/recommend?

[@MailmanNick]

I wear Nike air monarchs. Make sure any shoe you get is all black

[@iiiii4560]

@@MailmanNick how do they hold up?

[@MailmanNick]

@@iiiii4560 I get a new pair every few months. Other carriers will buy more than one pair so they can switch every day

[@bostonkhed6175]

I recently was hired for city carrier PTF. Nick How many hours a week are you working?

[@MailmanNick]

I'm working 60 hours a week currently

[@TalkingUSPS]

Im a regular for 6 yrs now been a CCA for 5 years, i make 60-65k so far. Thats with over time. I dont get how some others in the comments are making more unless your working overtime like crazy

[@MailmanNick]

I make around $75k I get my 60 hours

[@TalkingUSPS]

@MailmanNick I get my 40 hours pretty avg we have 3 full routes here and 1 aux route that is 4hrs long max. We did just get an adjustment finally with the new route adjustment tools. I have 871 people and Amazon but we have 2 CCAS and 2 PTFS we are over covered now so bye bye OT for awhile until someone quits or holidays here

[@MailmanNick]

@@TalkingUSPS that's a very small office that's definitely why

[@TalkingUSPS]

@MailmanNick yep it was worse though my route was heavily over burden I fought hard for now 2 route cuts since I own the route.

[@jayluv313]

Damn just get to it

[@bdach88]

Is that before or after taxes?

[@MailmanNick]

Gross pay

[@FitnessDad44]

I want max hours.. should i switch crafts?

[@MailmanNick]

City Carrier craft usually is pretty good at getting hours in most areas

[@richsamuel2922]

3:16 This is a solid job. It doesn't pay too much nor too little. I'll definitely consider it if I loose my current job. Especially if I can be a class A driver and overnight.

[@MailmanNick]

Drivers make good money

[@zeeonnwilliamson2238]

8 years made 112k

[@eddiew2325]

Is your brother still an ARC?

[@MailmanNick]

No he resigned. He wasn't getting paid properly so he's working full time security.

[@eddiew2325]

@@MailmanNick unfortunate but best of luck!

[@afridgetoofar1818]

You want to get a rental property? Have you ever dealt with tenants before? Yikes 😬

[@MailmanNick]

My dad is a realtor and appraiser with multiple rentals. Either get a rental or a place to flip

[@zaireanu4679]

Just went regular on Dec. 16

[@MailmanNick]

Congrats. I didn't think people got converted in December

[@tommyaintgotnojob]

I've done package delivery for a storage company for few years before I did a 10 month stint at USPS during the pandemic. Mail delivery is tedious but heavy package delivery that FedEx/UPS does...ends up killing your back after a few years. We were worked like sledge dogs during the height of the pandemic, so I had to walk away (I started getting double mail, a pivot and a bump everyday). My station (coworkers included) was great for the most part but mail/package volume was just insane. I'm planning on trying it again now that pandemic is well behind us and things have calmed down. I miss all the walking that comes with being a CCA and being outside all day.

[@MailmanNick]

The job itself is great. It's just management and other factors that make people quit

[@oscarmencia8761]

What’s a Ptf?

[@MailmanNick]

Part time flexible

[@michaelmyersplays4992]

It’s been 3 years wow

[@MailmanNick]

Time flies

[@michaelmyersplays4992]

@@MailmanNick you came a long way dude. Proud of you bro

[@MailmanNick]

Instagram: @NickVenti

[@onionwarlock7407]

Doesn't seem like a job for a college student 😔

[@MailmanNick]

No definitely not.

[@MuhammadAsghar-ck2um]

What’s regular mean

[@MailmanNick]

A career employee who is "on the roster" basically

[@darealist4290]

Mail Carrier union isn't good. You guys pay should be way better...Yeah I remember you in that strip club 😂

[@MailmanNick]

Lol

[@adrian3747_]

goddamn this dude is fine af! i’ll let him do whatever lol

[@lancewonderley2323]

That's a problem! When people can't loose there job. When they never show up etc

[@MailmanNick]

Union is good and bad