How Severely Wounded Works [I think] Rise of Kingdoms

[@Lugh-gv6jx]

man, this takes me back to John Wick gaming. Not many KZbinrs who goes in-depth into the game mechanics.

[@everAU2]

He actually quit because of crystal tech,he was such a blessing to the RoK community😢

[@Busdriver3092]

My brain is fried right not now 💀

[@OmniarchOfficial]

Nice video man! Glad my alliance's pass garrison made a cameo appearance as well ;) A couple of thoughts I had while watching this (I've been meaning to make a video covering this topic for a while but I touched on it briefly in my "damage formula" video and I just haven't gotten back around to it) - Your conclusion about troop count relative to the enemy being the driving factor of the sev wound ratio is correct but I don't think it paints the full picture. Credit to Speckoh for explaining this to me but it seems to be the case that the sev wound ratio on any given turn is more closely related to the damage output of each army during that turn, which is obviously correlated to troop count (as you pointed out) but also takes other things into account (such as "strong" commanders vs "weak" commanders). I could be wrong here, but I think this also explains the reason that attila/takeda farm sev wounds effectively: they increase their per-turn damage every skill cycle for 4 turns, which gives them favorable damage ratios for more turns than the enemy. Additionally, they get better when swarmed (as you pointed out) because of rage compensation (and attack tree) causing them to generate rage faster, thus ensuring they get their active skill buffs faster. - I've never heard people say that the color of your health bar is the "cause" of taking more sev wounds, but I think the reason many people (myself included) recommend to retreat "at yellow/at 50%" is because of the implication that you're more likely to trade poorly (which is probably true assuming everyone on the field is running some sort of troop expansion). It's a simple "rule of thumb" that people can follow during the chaos of massive open field fights. Regardless, glad to know for certain that the health bar itself is unrelated to the calculations! If you've found concrete evidence of any of the above being wrong then I'd love to see it on discord or something because that would be valuable info for not just the community but also for Speckoh so he can make the RoK Sim more accurate! And I recommend checking out his discord if you haven't already, he has some explanations for mechanics there that I think are insightful. Glad to see other creators tackling these topics too 😁

[@Busdriver3092]

Hey thanks for the comment. It's actually hard to type everything out without it getting convoluted. The short answer is... For the scenarios you are talking about. Is the % of sev wounds to slightly wounded raised....or is the sev wounds a result of big damage being dealt but the actual sev wound % isn't elevated? There's two components from what I found - The formula that calcluate how the trades go on a turn to turn basis - Factors that raise the sev wound % The challenge is that when you raise the difference in the trades, it also increases the factors that raise the second. So the only way I can think of is to control all the variables in the first so you are only testing factors that increase the sev wound %.

[@CB_Toaster]

There might be another factor coming into conclusion when it comes to "why return at yellow(below ca. 40%) You take more sevs if you are at yellow or red and thats what i could see when comparing reports from returning yellow and sad face reports, you get even more sevs at Low health bar. Why is that? My guess would be, due to the Low troops that you deal less counterattack and by that also have less defence to tank hits that good anymore with the counterattack getting weaker. Is there already any data about ?

[@OmniarchOfficial]

@@Busdriver3092 Yeah, complex things to discuss via text lol honestly I've never considered what might cause the ratio of sev wounds to slightly wounds on any given turn; my assumption was that that's not really controllable in an actual fight outside of your initial choice in commander, equipment, armaments, runes, buffs, etc. so I've really only focused on understanding why one side of a fight might take more sev wounds relative to the other person in the fight.

[@Busdriver3092]

@@CB_Toaster your defense doesn’t drop. The only thing that scales down as you lose troops is your damage output.

[@Busdriver3092]

@@OmniarchOfficial I was thinking about it. One way we could test it is… You run a strong commander vs a weak commander (Nevsky vs Khan) in a couple of different scenarios. You control all the other variables so the only difference is the stats and skills of the commanders. If you let them trade for 5 turns, the Nevsky would out trade the Khan. But if you calculate the sev wound %, it should be similar with the Khan side slightly higher because it was losing the fight and the troop ratio and troop count starts skewing in Nevsky’s favor. If you then run the same test with two Nevskys with the same parameters and the sev wound % falls in the same range but in between the khan and Nevsky before…. It can show that the commanders itself doesn’t affect the sev wound % and that the differential in sev wounds in a result of a difference between the quality of the commanders and their trades

[@healmachine5526]

Nice video 👍🏼 Seriously thought I was the only one trying to figure out the formula. Liked and subbed 😎

[@Busdriver3092]

Thank you. I wouldn’t say I figured it out. Hopefully someone else takes these observations and expand it to make it more complete

[@jipieeee]

Little correction to the Omniarch rally report at 12:48 The 6.3% sev wounds should take dead troops into consideration, right? There are 92M sev wounds and 99M deads. Combine them together and compare to slightly wounded, they are 12.3% of all wounded troops. It's still a difference to the smaller Markswoman reports from the farms, but it's a lot closer than the 6.3% would suggest.

[@Busdriver3092]

I’m not sure. I spent very little time looking into how they calculate deads. Which is why I said we can not use that one. It was more to show how a high number can actually be a low percentage

[@pokerchannel6991]

I think sev wounds is done based on the combined amount of damage from both players. And the side that did porportionally more damage in that turn will get a higher amount of awarded sev wounds inflicted on the weakers side (the modifiers you labeled as A and B still apply, true, but that is a separate topic). The stronger side (which did more damage), is awarded exponentially a higher amount of sev wounds inflicted on the enemy. IE: we can add the nuanced understanding of your A and B modifiers. And that is very good work you did to tease out those A and B modifiers. None the less, the simplest way to think of sev wounds (a quick heuristic), is to just sum up the damage done in each turn (say the total is 1000 damage). If your side did 700 of that damage, and the enemy did 300 damage to you, it means you contributed more damage in that turn. It means that you will inflict a disporportionate higher amount of severe wounds to the enemy. This is the simplest and most practical way to understand sev wounds. [Again, the work you did on the A and B modifiers is very informative, but for simplicity, they can be factored out.]

[@davidw.5185]

Thanks! 👍 Love the detailed info. I haven't seen this in depth anywhere else. 😊

[@Busdriver3092]

Thank you!

[@richiearagonjr2981]

Yo bro good stuff. Question, so when the troop ratio is bigger the sevs are more for both marches, or just the one with less troops?

[@Busdriver3092]

The % is significantly higher for both marches and slightly favors the winning side (by %) but when the ratio is big, the side with much more troops doesn’t really feel the impact of the elevated %

[@richiearagonjr2981]

Yo bro thank you, thank you for the time it took for this lol

[@Busdriver3092]

@@richiearagonjr2981 thanks man!

[@_sc4recr0w_d8]

Earned my subscription right away. Your content is amazing!

[@Busdriver3092]

Thank you for the kind words!

[@1tz_luc1fer]

I like to think of it as this There are many factors which are affecting health and defense, including buffs/talents/skills like take % of less damage, Let's keep it simple If your base health per troop is 200. And you are getting 100% health from different stuff like skills, equipments, technology, etc Your base health is now 400. If you have 1 200K troops in your march , then your march combined. health is 800K. The defense reduces the damage you take or in other way it absorbs % of damage. So for me the skills/talents etc which reduces the damage you take come before defense. Now the damage formula is already explained by omniarch. So when the damage was dealt to a march(after being increased from buffs or decreased from debuffs) It will first be reduced from the skill/talent Which reduces the damage taken. Then it will be absorbed by defense, then the remaining damage will be equally spread in all troops. Now I am way too lazy to actually work on severely wounded formula, but I might do it, in far Future

[@xaxababa6616]

Have you figured the sev formula?

[@Madao-k9s]

Hey great video again I have a question, if a flag / fortress is being swarmed, should I join with as much troops as I can to defend it to get more kills for the achievments? This because the difference between the # of troops in the flag / fortress is going to cause more sev wounded on the swarmer independently that they have like 5 marches swarming the thing? I feel like a couple of times that I've done that I got a lot of kills but I never checked

[@Busdriver3092]

Thank you. I’m actually not sure how it works with rallies and garrisons since I didn’t get to test it. But in general, if they have marches swarming a garrison, if the garrison is even half decent it should trade very positive and give tune warmers a lot of deads and sev sold wounds

[@CB_Toaster]

So my conclusion would be that a Liu che Alex with that high normal attack damage(basic attacks) is actually farming way more sevs. Maybe not killing it as fast as Nevski Joan but getting more sevs done in a bit slower time?

[@Busdriver3092]

If their damage output is in a similar range. The sev wound rate is still a % of the total damage dealt. The March that has the higher total output would generally still be the one that gets the most sevs

[@realjohnlove]

Figuring out which commanders tend to give more/less sev wounds would be cool. Like Richard is a hospital filler, most healing commanders are, so when I see a Richard I target it to get sevs

[@Busdriver3092]

You actually just use the best commanders because they’re the ones that’ll have you trade the best overall. The only time you should use a lower dps March like Attila is when you know you are better than the enemy and you want to farm kills off of them.

[@Razznaz]

Great topic and data. I haven't seen much discussion or anything conclusive about sev wound ratio so far. From what i have observed while fighting, i think the sev wound % goes up when a higher % of your current troops are wounded in 1 turn. With a different factor for basic attacks compared to direct damage. I dont necessarily see evidence that the troop count is a factor in sev wounds from your testing as it could still be based on the damage done? Maybe i missed it i need to rewatch. Interesting to see in your testing that there is a balancing factor that gives higher sevs % than normal to march that is winning.

[@Razznaz]

Ok I replayed a bit and you did kind of disprove that with the 5% att vs wo 5% att test although the troop counts and damage difference was low. Relative troop counts just seems like an odd factor.

[@Razznaz]

What about the sev wound % if you gave 1 side a 5% att buff and did just 1 turn starting with 100k troops each side.

[@Busdriver3092]

@@Razznaz The troop count one is pretty definitive. You can see the difference in sev % when I started both sides with higher and lower troop counts. The lower they both start with, the higher the % became. Controlling for everything else…. The only factor that was changed was the amount of troops.

[@Busdriver3092]

@@Razznaz it has to be relative because if you had a 1000 troop difference at 99,000 vs 100,000 that shows up very differently compared to 1000 vs 2000. That’s why what matters is the ratio between the two and not just the numerical difference.

[@Busdriver3092]

@@Razznaz when I was doing the testing, the best I could do was 2 turns. If I was able to reliably test the trades at 1 turn, it would be a game changer with the testing. Also, it doesn’t help that the battle log doesn’t show the slightly wounded vs sev wound ratio. That also would’ve made this so much easier. I suspect that if you could do 1 turn, the side with more attack will do more damage and cause more sev wounds but the sev wound % would be the same. Once you get to 2 turns, then the ratio starts changing and it becomes impossible to tell if it’s the stats or the factors I discussed that’s causing the change in sev wound %

[@pokerchannel6991]

you are the wick of rok

[@Busdriver3092]

Thank you. Looking back at his stuff…. He was thinking at a whole different level 🙏

[@DDKKAY]

Excellent job man 👍

[@Busdriver3092]

Thank you!

[@jaimehoshino5859]

What do you think is better for Archers Open Field? A) 2/2/2 (Set Chest + Set Gloves) 25.5% Atk 28% Def 25% Health B) 2/2/2 (Set Chest + Set Boots) 18% Atk 41,5% Def 19% Health C) 2/1/3 (3 Leadership Set Pieces) 15% Atk 34,5% Def 26% Health Nice video btw! 😀 👏🏻 👏🏻

[@Busdriver3092]

I run B. I made a video about the reasoning. Thank you!

[@everAU2]

Between health and skill damage which is better to pick?

[@Busdriver3092]

There are actually many factors so it’s not a straight forward answer. Is there a scenario you’d like to give?

[@everAU2]

@@Busdriver3092trying to decide from arnament. 4.6% HP or 3% skill damage + 3.1% defense. On a high skill damage march.

[@Busdriver3092]

@@everAU2 which March? If it’s a tankier March I’d go skill damage. If not…health

[@everAU2]

@@Busdriver3092nev joan

[@Busdriver3092]

@@everAU2 def and skill damage

[@nyangjungwon3340]

Isnt this actually proving that healing commander such as richard is not a hospital bill

[@Busdriver3092]

@@nyangjungwon3340 Richard is definitely a hospital bill. He’s not doing enough damage. You need healing and damage output like Huo to really take advantage of this

[@nyangjungwon3340]

@@Busdriver3092 agreed, For kvk 1 & 2, what do you think about richard ysg.. i even find this pairing max, wrecking alex ysg max.. what i see is richard keeps bringing troop back and keep ysg deal optimal skill damage as they are more troop, at first alex would low richard first but over time alex would go lower while richard stays healing, and the result, even if the battle go on for a very long time(which is will cause richard bring more troop and cause sev wounded), alex would still have more severely wounded because he lost with a ratio of at least 3:2.. this is what i mean by saying hes not that of hospital bill if mid fighting he can bring more troop and outnumber the enemy.. i forgot to specify it for kvk 1 & 2

[@Busdriver3092]

@@nyangjungwon3340 good commander for whales in kvk1 and then falls off hard due to power creep

[@Busdriver3092]

@@nyangjungwon3340 maybe it’d win in a duel but I don’t see how it’d do better in the open field

[@nyangjungwon3340]

@@Busdriver3092 yeah, now that you put it like that, i with you lol

[@alfredhedelykkewegger2332]

Great!

[@shaunpage6081]

That's not 100% true. I've hit and been hit by more troop marches and have traded positive. The idea that sev wounds have a correlation with the health bar is that it's a gauge to understand where you are at with troops left. The lower the health bar, the lower the troops are. So when you attack someone with a white health bar, which , in most cases, it should trade negative. But again, first and foremost, troop tier is the biggest difference. Then equipment, armaments, and kvk tech. Plus, sev wounds are more affected by normal attacks. The attack you see in white. The higher that is the more sevs you'll take. It's the same as deads. That's why AT does so many deads when hitting a city.

[@Busdriver3092]

I feel like you didn’t watch my video 🙈…

[@shaunpage6081]

@44Busdriver I did watch it and am still watching. I made that comment at the beginning when you said that the health bar has nothing to do with how bad you take or don't take sev wounds. Same with the number of troops. But I'll continue to watch.

[@alexmaioo1]

I always say the era of t4 is over, ppl don't believe. Your t4 march is much quicker to drop to yellow or red than t5, and you would end up getting more ser wounded. t4 is not cost efficient at all. you would end up using more speeds than t5 overall. in rss term, t4 is only slightly better. with kvk t5 healing cost tech, t5 is not that horrible over t4 rss cost. just a little bit.

[@Aymira1903]

exactly, t4 just fills hospital more which cost more speedups. ppl dont realise that. only reason to use t4 is if you have no rss but tons of speedups with weak crystal tech

[@Busdriver3092]

I actually have a different take. I think more people in the end game should be running T4s....especially when the goal is to drain the enemy. The Wick Gaming video I linked in my video actually does a great job of making a convincing case for that.

[@ferisadi2418]

If fighting takes place further away from your city, the staying power of your (and your kingdoms) marches becomes more important. Cause with T4 you will need to refresh much quicker and refreshing will take more time and things will quickly skew in the favor of your enemies who bring T5 and clear the field. If the time to refresh is very short, you can always efficiently withdraw the T4 and bring them back to the field. In such situations the staying power of a march is much less relevant. You will still use about equal numbers of speedups to heal your troops (Cause u will take about 1.5x T4 woundeds compared to T5, against a equal strong march). But less then half the number of RSS compared to bringing T5. When u reached a sort of standstill against a kingdom enemy. Both fighting near own territory. The strategy is to drain your enemies players RSS by using T4.