How to Determine Your Deck’s Power Level I The Command Zone 295 I Magic: the Gathering EDH

[@SmugLookingBarrel]

Here's an idea: Before the Game Knights episodes, have everyone playing the game rate the power level of their decks.

[@charleslegreatthegarbagemo7202]

SmugLookingBarrel they used to talk about the opposing decks they face in the episode in the beginning videos of game knights.

[@markcooper4876]

I do like that idea, as it could help to show you closer to where your decks could fall into on the scale.

[@turtleturtle1500]

game knights is rigged. they want certain people to wins

[@ryanlott1108]

@@turtleturtle1500 That seems very unlikely. How do you figure?

[@KH-tu3no]

@@ryanlott1108 . I 'ii.. . L . NK

[@knightythesmitey8235]

My player skill brings 10/10 decks down to a 1/10.

[@leonvalenzuela4096]

@Tiago de Matos discards Gravetroll.... yep 1/10 😈

[@austinsmith1421]

Tiago de Matos also turn one, plays seven zero cost artifacts.

[@austinsmith1421]

Tiago de Matos because I was the masked player at the other side of the table playing an all basic lands deck.

[@knightfromlordran]

same bro

[@tmain1320]

Would have liked but message count was at 69

[@ventrixaristerose1488]

I've been working on a "jank" deck that has a d&d/wow theme, where it's designed to put the other players on quests so they can get rewards to help them in the game

[@R3C0NSPARTAN]

Could be cool for an archenemy deck, so they're a party trying to defeat your "dungeon"

[@jamespooh2]

I need this deck list

[@Jeffxm003]

Nice! I'm working on a jank deck for kenrith where everything is themed around kings and royalty

[@games-or7ig]

Yes decklist please

[@fagnergregs]

I have a deck like this, it's a Zedruu themed like a equipment/artifact shop, so i'm like a NPC on the table, guiving quests for equipments and etc. Pretty cool to play

[@willemboele2079]

play 3 games with friends if by the third game they are all targetting you, you did good.

[@TheAressandoro]

I guess that's true for most people

[@linusschanreitner5825]

Or you're playing zo-zu.

[@TheAressandoro]

@@linusschanreitner5825 then prepare to misery

[@TheMystcast]

No matter what, I always get targeted. No matter what I do, I even have been losing games on purpose in the past 5 weeks because I just could care less about winning anymore. I just hate to have my stuff being destroyed even when its not a threat. Last Friday someone used that new green force to destroy my gilded lotus and starcompass. Then 2 turns down the road someone plays a artifact that makes all creatures colorless, then plays the rat commander to give all rats fear, essentially making them unblockable. Then I was stuck at 4 mana for 5 turns in a row and couldnt cast anything. Im just sick of being a target when I am not even a threat.

[@Doomer3003]

Depends. I like to bring decks with similar power level than my friend's so that they also have a good time and don't need to specifically target me to get a chance at winning.

[@CheeseProds]

That Lord of the Rings joke aged beautifully. 😂

I came to the comment section only to write the same thing

[@josephcarey8999]

I was gonna say my Nazgûl and Sauron decks are so oppressive

[@BugManiacRoy]

So did the Optimus prime one 😂

[@lugh.i]

"Melissa DeTora could spank me!" 10:28 -- Jimmy Wong, 2019

[@TheCulturedMan34]

Thank you mam may I have another?

[@lugh.i]

@@TheCulturedMan34 And, please, just crush me!

[@rosekrios6630]

Support Bottom Boys :D

[@2236UmbrellaCorp]

Lugh Ildanach yep

[@ValhallasChosen]

Yeah, was thinking that was jimmy just secretly throwing that out there. haha

[@ethanthurman5748]

Show starts at 4:47

[@Xenos_hive]

+

[@jonathanshuttera1734]

You're doing the Lord's work

[@caiolucas55]

Its incredible how long they take to start the show

[@timsmith7419]

I scroll the comments on all of their videos just to find this. Thank you 🙏

[@johnroush1099]

@@caiolucas55 most podcasts spend anywhere from 2-5 minutes at the start of their videos plugging sponsors, their Patreons, etc. They're not putting out all of this content on their free time, they need to make money. People need to stop complaining. Just skip if you don't care, but don't whine about it when there's a purpose.

[@zwc76]

This is making me want to build goat tribal.

[@happydetectivevalentine3009]

Bernhard Wang if you do that, hit me up with the deck list. That might even be better than my croc tribal, or the snail tribal.

[@valentinfuller415]

Standard is getting a little lame, my most prominent deck is elk tribal

[@DannyTube69]

We need moar goats. Whilst considering goat tribal myself I ran into an issue. No goat themed ramp.

[@happydetectivevalentine3009]

DJPIPER28 you can always just use artifact rampers. They are more expensive, but they’re good.

[@thomaspalmer2828]

Just wait until people start siding in Goatnapper

[@zanderbrandt1730]

So, I have a jank deck. It's all wurm themed and the best card in there ( by far) is sandwurm convergence. You guys used craw wurm as an example, and you know what? I don't have that one so I'm adding it to my next tcg order. Thanks guys

[@weirdo82]

There's a mono green legendary that creates wurm tokens now, and gives +2/+2 and trample to them. If you haven't heard of it....

[@legacyxv7132]

When you find out your 8 is a 2

[@VulcanWolf]

That's my noob arse on Commander Wednesdays...

[@brysonkantz9552]

Legacy XV literally me right now 😂😂

[@stevehammer4139]

me when i take my "6 turn" deck out into the real world lol

[@The_Hist]

When you find out your 2 is an 8

[@V2ULTRAKill]

Ngl my deck is a 7 that would jump to a 9 with 2 cards and maaaaaybe swapping my budget tutors for more expensive ones

[@manswine1252]

"If you play black and doesn't have a demonic tutor [..] Id be interested to see why you think that's 7 or 8" "Well, Jimmy. You see... the Deck IS strong. However, I'm poor"

[@XRPaladin]

Can get a revised demonic for like 30$..

[@devynmounteer6696]

Well if your a budget player that $30 could very well be a new deck, personally i would rather build more decks, then to make one really powerful deck that would get really boring, really fast. I have plenty of power 6-7 decks that cost under $50 total. It's about finding creative synergies and making the decks as efficient as possible on that budget. One of my most powerful decks has only cost about $35 and it easily keeps up with 8-10 level decks, given it is zada hedron grinder, but still super cheap deck that easily keeps up in cedh that have $300+ decks. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better, it comes down more to player skill and build quality.

[@XRPaladin]

@@devynmounteer6696 very true. I've just started using proxies aswell for expensive cards. China does a good job at making high quality proxies for 2-3$ a piece. And commander, being quite the casual format, people either dont care, or have no clue because 80% of them are indistinguishable

[@hybridyd1305]

@@devynmounteer6696 tutoring cards don't make the deck boring. They're useful for grabbing a specific card given the state of the game. I've grabbed heroic intervention as well as Imps Mischief and Torment of Hailfire in my games and each card has made all the difference

[@devynmounteer6696]

@@hybridyd1305 I never said tutors were boring. I was saying only having one really expensive deck gets really boring for me personally as I like having different styles of decks to switch it up and overall have more fun.

[@BeyondPolygons]

I thiiiink Josh was going for the "EVERY BODY DANCE NOW!" with the wamp wamps, at the beginning

[@ruaridhusher4373]

Yeah its not the tune of I've got the Power, I know that for sure

[@codeholo6631]

I also think this. lol.

[@camocat9825]

Yes! I was very sad... I really wanted to hear that

[@flowerpower2067]

Would of been funny if he went swamp, swamp swamp

[@codeholo6631]

Flower Power your a genius lol , I cant stop doing it myself nowTHANKS

[@Reik483]

Anyone else notice the look in Jimmy's eyes when he said "Melissa DeTora could crush me"?

[@lot2973]

when

[@Reik483]

@@lot2973 10:32

[@damienrice881]

MelissaDeToro can spank me with a 3-4 casual deck

[@losttheory2761]

Man that's crazy watching this now and Josh says that. Lotr cards just came out. 😅 11:44

[@deviantimp6496]

Right!

[@Cabbrickk]

One of my favourite ways to describe jank decks is that they have a goal other than winning. You guys did illustrate the point but I think it's worth highlighting on its own too 😊

[@MrMalorian]

I came into this thinking I played 6 or 7, but now I see myself in the 4-5 realm. Big eye opener!

[@lucasbakeforero426]

Same! Revisited this video because of some experiences I've had discussing power levels, where people would just completely stump me when I said "around 7". Turns out my Vial/ Krark deck is mostly a 5.

[@gowithmatt8911]

Definitely needed this video especially since i just got back into magic a few months ago. All the new cards and just alot of good decks to build and try out. Thanks guys!

[@BeardMinis]

This was a great episode. Highly enjoyable. I wonder to aid people’s reference if this could be added to the opening intro of Game Knights? So when you introduce your commander and key cards and strats state power level as well?

[@TheCommanderTavern]

I'm glad you guys bring up the situation where players are judged just because they run expensive/powerful cards. Sometimes these players didn't buy them in today's prices. They might've traded for them or had them for a long time - from a time when they were waaaaaaay cheaper. So it's great to clarify. I'm someone that clarifies this by following the social contract. I believe in asking at what power people are going to play the match before starting it. If the pod is going to be between 6-8 then I choose my deck accordingly. I think that's the best course of action. Same for cEDH. Those players literally say: "Is this going to be cEDH?" and then choose a deck accordingly. I ask if it's casual or semi-competitive since those are the major pods I come across. So I sort of classify them as jank, casual, semi-comptitive, and cEDH.

[@ianflannery4291]

Actually laboratory Maniacs we're testing out a competitive level Bruna deck for the Voltron strategy, they got it up to like at 9 on the power level

[@GamerdevilPro]

The Azorius one I assume? I think Josh undervalues voltron strats a bit in general, they can be pretty nasty sometimes.

[@damo9961]

It kills all 3 other players on turn 6? lol doubt it.

[@CommanderReplay]

How to Boros and Voltron at the higher tables: Feast and Famine and winter orb. Works like charm :)

[@Guitarmeister93]

I thought of you as soon as they said it could only be so good. Maybe they didn't see Aurelia murder 3 opponents after 2 consecutive board wipes.

[@TheCulturedMan34]

Should be: 1: Strength 2: Speed 3: Reliability 4: Interaction *Edited for the sake of good points in comments*

[@thedarudecactus3179]

Win con mono blue always 10/10

[@andrewsigrist9981]

I dont think speed to reach the wincon should be a metric as it excludes stax decks. Teferi, Urza, and Yisan dont reach their win con particularly fast, but they lock you out of the game until they get there. Or there might be an additional category: Interaction

[@jasonmarkulin2319]

4: Resistence to disruption

[@poilu146]

@@andrewsigrist9981 stax or control or pillowfort ... yeah speed to reach wincon definitely isnt a great way to measure it

[@Rococorico]

@@andrewsigrist9981 To be honest, locking people out of the game is pretty much the deck's primary wincon. People not conceding after, say, creature Teferi + Knowledge Pool (I'm going with a popular yet more cute than effective combo) is the actual bad experience, not the time it takes for the hard-lock player to take out everyone.

[@an_averagejoe7837]

I would never play CEDH, however I can't not watch Playing With Power MTG here on youtube

[@klinsblue]

The games are so quick I can’t disagree. Must watch for me too

[@jamespooh2]

same

[@lukasazdanovic6477]

#ad

[@EliasMheart]

38:43 "There is no mill decks up there" Oh you sweet summer child. You just wait, winter is coming

[@matimamo]

taking out my super jank sliver deck my opponent: LOOK a super competitive 10/10 deck lets all focus him down

[@themagicman2320]

Slivers aren't even that powerful anymore. I wish the whole you play slivers, you must die thing would go away. Yea they are strong, but commander decks in general have gotten stronger and I think they sit comfy at where they are now. My sea kraken tribal deck can be more scary than my sliver overlord combo but the reactions each one get is vastly diffrent.

[@bdgaming5098]

I sadly completely agree

[@darksteelmenace595]

Its one of the most powerful tribes, you have to say its a jank deck and maybe show it to the table to convince them. Same if you play sth like Breya (I had a bad breya deck, I know what Im talking about)

[@koboldmancer]

“I’m making a lord of the ring deck…”… 3 years later… 😂

[@shendelzaresilkwood]

nah I'll just bring my scouter

[@goodnamesweretakenkt]

Yes! Lol

[@JeremyMarcum1]

It's over 9000!

[@Habeev07]

Aggressive inline better than scooter. Disney movie BRINK

[@Habeev07]

Aggressive inline better than scooter. Disney movie BRINK

[@cram6916]

8:10 you can do everything right and then the outcome of a single game comes down to one person got amazing card draw, one got decent, and 2 got mostly hosed. commander is chaotic; it's why we love it.

[@su0tin731]

"A Goat deck is a casual deck" I've played against a guy who had an Oxen deck, that was basically every shapeshifter ever with some wacky combo and a lonely Ox in the mix. It was pretty competitive.

[@_somerandomguyontheinternet_]

7:53 “there’s no way to put your deck on, you know- feed it into a computer and it spits out ‘your deck is a 7.2/10’.” Paul: CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!!

[@--CHARLIE--]

Nice reference

[@michelegiordano1127]

It's fun coming back to this video and hear that "my deck is a LOTR deck" gets into the Junk decks

[@jeffswett4579]

I've been killed with springjack pasture and craterhoof....the pasture makes goats...yeah i died to goats.

[@DemonOfMyMind]

I feel another aspect you need to add to this is the deck's Achilles heel. All decks have a weakness but you need to determine just how hard it is for your deck to handle it's own weaknesses. Consider reanimator decks which have a very dramatic weakness in graveyard hate. This weakness is so relevant that a deck that might otherwise be a power 10 deck can drop to a 8 depending on the meta. Artifact decks also have a strong Achilles heel as well.

[@milohobo9186]

In my meta, forced sacrifice to gravepact effects is top tier moving my usual creature strategies from a 7-8 down to a 5-6. It's time to start packing more enchantment, artifact, and graveyard hate.

[@DemonOfMyMind]

Milo HoBo there are a few cards that prevent foes from forcing you to sacrifice. You could find room for those in your deck.

[@DannyTube69]

I once played 99 cards for a month as my sister accidentally took my mountain and went back to uni with it.

[@Tehnameless1]

Another way to power down in terms of the scale is to scale down the main game plan. Multiple ways to effectively kill everyone at the same time is something an 8-10 would look for. Win in 2 turns if the on-board plan is unimpeded is 6-8. 6- needs it to survive 3 turns

[@IamALLin1989]

Great topic, perfect timing! Was thinking about it last week but did not find answers on the internet

[@nathanimholt1827]

I really like that Game Knights thinks of deck power in terms of about the consistency. The "game winning turn" scale is how I ask people to describe their power level to me almost everytime I sit down in a pod a new people. It's cool to see you guys have a parallel thought process to mine because I haven't seen anyone else doing it that way. Gavin Duggan of the RC and I had a discussion about assessing power levels while playing at commandfest Seattle and I brought this strategy up to him when he asked us how we assess power levels. Hopefully this scale will start to spread and become a reference for players!

[@corydiehl764]

So, after getting into cEDH, I feel like the best way to explain 9 vs 10 is: 9- You are trying to interact with your opponents as efficiently as possible. 10- You are trying to NOT interact with your opponents as efficiently as possible. At least this is the mind set I have when I'm building a commander for a 9 vs a 10, and not all commanders are able to pull this off. My feeling on power level of a deck from my experience so far (others may disagree): A well tuned/optimized deck usually gets to an 8, and with more effort (sometimes money) can get to a 9, but not always a 10. When I've played cEDH games at 10, it's usually trying to get to your win con by turn 3 or 4 with interaction pieces to defend your win con, and in a bubble can win turn 1-3. 9 tends to feel like you can get to your win con by turn 3 consistently, you are able to prevent your opponents from winning until turn 6, and on turn 6 you can win while defending your win con. So, I agree with the turns specified to win, but at 9 and 10 you are trying to win by these turns "not in a bubble". I like to think of 9 decks as the casually competitive decks that are fun to play with, but may not be ready to go in and attempt to win a tournament. When it comes to 9 and 10, I feel like that isn't enough information to describe the power level. Which is where the tier list comes in. Politics happens a lot in 9 and 10 games, but it's less about having a truce, and more about using priority to bluff into someone making a misplay. Like you could counter/destroy something, but there are two others that could counter it for you. Overall, I think this has been the best video I've seen to introduce my play group to power levels and have a good discussion about it. It's really helped me identify the qualities of each power level such that I now have decks across the range, and my games have become much more fun because of it. Generally I find it best to start with my 5-6 level deck, because my group tends to over/under rate the power of their decks by +/-1, and then work my way up in power level until we start having fun games.

[@TheCommanderTavern]

@42:59 "Just because somebody plays a Mana Crypt in their deck doesn't automatically bump their deck to an 8 on the power scale." Preach!

[@Jaebird88]

This honestly helps me feel more confident in identifying where my decks are at on the scale, as opposed to the websites and forum posts that give confusing algebraic instructions on calculating power level. Not having a playgroup or even an LGS I can find time to visit leaves me in a place where I have all these decks and no way to test them against other people.

[@darkdragonXD1]

"There is no mill on 9-10..." - Oona Queen of the fae, :(

[@obed6901]

Oona can be competitive. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f17HoYuwqMZsors

[@darkdragonXD1]

@@obed6901 I know thats why I said that with the ":(" sad face" "

[@sancturillore]

So based on what you're saying about Casual (3-4) decks, Graham's Bear Force One deck that won a Game Knight session is one of them. Bear tribal FTW!

[@diegomeringer3953]

I have a 6-7 bear tribal, it has other things than bears

[@rafaelpico2762]

Thanks for the topic! I’ve been worrying about how to determine my decks’ power level for a while, so this helps

[@bluedog4248]

I say an easy way to distinguish decks is how often it will combo off in a turn, and how long that combo will be. 1-2: no combos 3-4: maybe a combo once in a while, or a powerful effect that happened due to luck. Unintentional combo 5-6: intentional interacts, happens alot more, turns take a bit longer than normal. 7-8: comboing off every turn, multiple powerful combos 9-10: you combos cause other combos, answer for a shut down of a combo.

[@TheRealSarceus]

My favorite deck is The Ur-Dragon. It's pretty consistent at getting wins around turn 10, which puts it at about 7 on the power scale. I think it's fairly resilient, and it has a few answers. By the metric of optimization, though, I wouldn't rate it that high. It's far from being optimized and needs several changes to truly push its power. At this point I would say its a 6 at best.

[@RENEG4DE4NGEL]

I just have to say that keeping a copy of The Art of War behind Sriracha and salt is a perfect metaphor for MTG. 10/10 background material.

[@michaelmitchell338]

I would say 1. Theme deck: entertainment is the only consideration 2-3 Jank 4-5 Casual 6-7 Focused 8-9 Competitive 10 Net Deck with crazy high win and possibly severe prison and/or control: Not possible to accidentally have fun while piloting or facing this deck.

[@ceulgai2817]

I was ready to rank my Animar "Oops, All Creatures!" at a 7 until you gave those metrics. Maybe I shouldn't be using my other decks to measure it.

[@sniper_g8808]

Do you know if he was saying animar is not very competitive?

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

My playgroup uses a slightly modified version of your 1-10 scale. Ours goes like: 1-2 - Chair Tribal - You don't have a strategy, and the goal of the deck isn't to win, but some other creative endeavor. 3-5 - The precon equivalent - A somewhat consistent strategy, and some good cards, to a degree you'd expect in a precon, pretty much. 6-7 - Focused - More cards in your deck are included to push your main strategy: Either by executing your own strategy, or by interrupting your opponents' strategies. 8-9 - Optimized - You see barely any tap lands, the land counters are lower over all, ramp count and efficiency is higher, more infinite combos, more no-holds-barred types of gameplay and strategies, and more "shenanigans", i.e. things that break the normal flow of the game, i.e. entombing a big monster on turn one and reanimating it on turn 2. 10 - Competitive - The bleeding edge decks, where budget is no object. Cards are picked based on their utility and efficiency alone, no matter if they cost 2 cent or 2000 dollars. The goal is to win as soon as possible. We barely see any cEDH decks in our group, so we thought it would make sense to fold them into the same one-degree-entry, while giving precons more space, to represent the significant gamut of power levels you see between, say, a 2014 precon and a 2019 precon. It's working rather well for us :)

[@pumkinswift8263]

I found that a better question is "how fast does your deck win?" This is usually much more meaningful.

[@Gab8riel]

Why? Fast combo and staxes are polar opposites in terms of speed, but both are cedh decks.

[@pumkinswift8263]

@@Gab8riel Stax wins long before it wins, and you can simply describe that first

[@CommanderReplay]

I do the same thing and have had good results with it. Some people may share HOW their decks win which gives you an idea which deck to grab also.

[@pumkinswift8263]

@@CommanderReplay Thats where i got the idea, had a lot more success with it

[@thecollectiblecollectabill2298]

my friends tried to concede when i played stasis. i said "let it go around the table a turn before you quit." they agreed, and less than 10 seconds later it was removed... if you don't have an answer, your friend should

[@Syne111]

Jimmy's take on samurai swords was oddly authentic.

[@evilhorst7254]

Damn that "LotR Deck" example hits different now.

[@radyrara]

Josh’s LOTR comment has aged poorly 😂

[@Thingymabob1000]

One tool for players that might not know about it that I find a life saver for deck building is tappedout. When you build the deck on that website you get a pie chart that compares the number of colored symbols on your cards to the number of ways to generate that mana. It has helped me a ton with deck building to have a better idea of where my mana base is sitting in comparison to the demands of the deck. It even splits the chart to show a comparison of lands that come into play tapped and untapped.

[@mekk-knightsarecool222]

Finally! This is gonna be one of the best episodes ever! ♥️

[@Sarcodes]

nostalgia, yeah, that's me, trying to put Kruphix, God of Horizons (my first commander) in any deck with UG I build, like, "I never have more than 7 cards in hand, and I always use all my mana each turn, certainly Kruphix could work in this deck" a hint, it's always a dead card... (and I still love it!)

[@Omegaroth666]

I really like the idea of "Art over Science". Also, "How strong is your deck?" "It's over 9000!!!!"

[@cj9606h]

So based on this ranking system, my four decks are *basically* like this; Mirri G/W Enchantress would be 6-7 Rhys the Redeemed would probably be a 7. And my Chulane and Kykar, with the way they're built with food chain (with lab maniac and jace) and storm respectively, I'd say would be 9s. I'd say it's good that I have two 5-6s and two more powerful decks because having a variety is always good when it comes to playgroups, so I think I'm good here and am now much more informed about how to rank my decks as well as future ones. Thanks again.

[@TainyaGaming]

I love how hard they try not to offend people

[@shanezygmontowicz4144]

I play a wolf/werewolf tribal edh deck in my casual pod and everyone tends to be afraid of it because everything feeds into everything. Either wolves get buffed, I get more wolves, or it helps me get more wolves my other mono green commander is kind of voltron with yorvo and i have a lot of ramp comparatively but didn't have anything to put it to until i added in some beefy wurms and elementals but before that my biggest hitters were yorvo, avenger of zendikar, and oran rief hydra

[@juniperbug8699]

It was fun starting to play commander with people who own semi competitive commander decks from the 5-10+ years of experience collecting, and I was starting off with my Edgar Markov precon. By fun I mean infuriating to realize how under powered I was and so investing hundreds of $$ into building something that could barely keep up.

[@GetMoneyMyrick]

I appreciate the discussion about individual cards. It's tough for me as somebody that has some dual lands because I want to play with then but I don't want people at the table to judge me for using them, so I'm tempted to just not put them in.

[@the_real_shoes]

For some reason I really want to build the most powerful goat tribal deck now...

[@diegomeringer3953]

shoes I’m trying shark tribal, boar tribal, goat tribal, and bear force one

[@johnbuscher]

@@diegomeringer3953 Dude, after seeing that GK episode, I totally want Bear Force One.

[@diegomeringer3953]

@@johnbuscher yeah and in kaldheim, I bet there will be at least one good bear

[@Kaiserland111]

Interesting to hear your guys' opinions about Commander deck strength! From your scale most of my decks fall right in the range you suggested most decks are at (6-8), and that both makes me happy and inspires me to continue my 18-year journey of improving at Magic! Thanks guys. Also, something that is REALLY fun is to play more non-standard Commander games, like 5-8 player games (or more), star-pattern, two-headed giant star (each person playing both decks of a team), etc. My good friends and I have even made a number of super fun and casual formats, and it completely changes the power levels of decks due to the non-standard interactions and deck count.

[@ProphetofEndTimes]

Josh's optimus prime is channeling Sean Connery

[@NIGHTMARE.1295]

I was struggling how to determine it and now finnaly I realized ❤ my favorite channel on KZbin command zone❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@gundamumbra9776]

I like izzet

[@thetornadottful]

I actually use a hardware toolcase. It can hold alot of dice and 13 commander decks with extra space for a stack of cards that you constantly switch in and out. Super legit. Love your content guys!

[@YourCrazyOverlord]

"Voltron decks can't really be even considered to be an 8/10" -

[@obed6901]

Narset, Enlightened Master? Uril, the Miststalker? What do you meen boi?!?!

[@douglasdakin3934]

This video rocks! I recently went to GP Reno and I know for a fact that my Jhoira 'Droid' deck is a solid 8 and someone from my LGS was there and was saying it was 'competitive' which proved interesting. Pitting a table at me was always interesting, best move I did during one of the rounds is he tapped out with TONS of board presence I popped out a Stasis. 2 people actually thanked me as he had cradle and tabernacle out with tons of stax creatures out.

[@mth4456]

Something I ran into at commander fest. Is this politics or just being a cheater? Relates to this topic. It was a casual pod and everyone wanted to go around power 6-8 Guy sits down, running a strange mono blue commander. Talked about how last round he took himself out and his deck is really goofy. That it tries to achieve weird combos and most take himself out of the game. He proceeds to pull off Sceptor Reversal with capsize and Aetherflux. He did it in a strange way, and it was around turn 7, but I still felt this was a bit deceitful. My friend said this is politics. Playing yourself off as a non-threat even though you are. Any other opinions.

[@ROMANTIKILLER2]

I mean, would you really ever trust someone running a mono blue deck?

[@johnbuscher]

@@ROMANTIKILLER2 Agreed, would you ever trust mono-blue? I’d just kill them ASAP if they’re intentionally making themselves seem harmless in a stranger setting. If it’s not a stranger, then I’d potentially reassess, but otherwise just remove suspects.

[@jamesoakley9333]

@@ROMANTIKILLER2 good point

[@zacsnowbank7632]

I've often heard people refer to decks as what percent focused it is with 75% being the ideal for strangers. So a deck with essentially the edhrec recommendations for oloro but with 20 cards that they are playing sub optimally just because they like them is a 80%. Of course a theoretical deck like that rarely actually exists, some commanders can raise it just from being good and synergy between janky cards might raise the score even if none of them are good on their own. In the end it ends up very similar to what they say in the video but the extra finesse of saying "it's kind of a 60%" and the goal of making "a 75" really helps give a goal for playing with strangers.

[@mr.mobboss1190]

I've struggled with this. People hated my Krenko deck. So i built Zur vultron. People hated that. So i built Jodah and it was kinda the sweet spot between crazy powerful and crazy fun. Recently i built Brion Stoutarm as sort of my purposely worst deck but fun to play

[@ykl1277]

There need to be more precision between 4 and 8. All my decks have a curve, ramp, draw, a game plan and a finisher, but never cedh. They are nowhere near the same power levels.

[@Da4sti3]

YK L like they said it’s an art vs science thing where some commanders by themselves are going to perform better or more consistently than others, while all the decks you have made might be built as focused decks or even optimised the commanders may pull them forward or backwards. Also I’m pretty sure if you and I used the same commander and built them with an optimised frame of mind to get them to 7-8 our individual choices will probably be different and will effect its overall power level and also remember the consistency factor.

[@UniGya]

I think Commander’s Quarters puts the metric between 4-8 into perspective best. A 5 or 6 is focused on a game plan but they aren’t playing the very best cards for their deck for some reason, usually budget. A 7 or 8 is willing to spend the money on those expensive cards (or has been playing for so long they just have them) to fully optimize the strategy, but it’s still not CEDH levels where you’re comboing off and winning turn 3

[@WIBYTIEDH]

Watching these videos on power levels and how they can vary and change is really fun and interesting when you kind of self-reflect on your own style of deck building and how it's changed. My first deck was Grixis Nicol Bolas but with a lot of M13's exalted cards and things like Insurrection and just whatever fit the colour scheme. I bought the Commander 2013 precon with Jeleva, Thraximundar and Nekusar and just kind of slapped it together, later on realizing that I loved Nekusar's ability and wanted to build around that instead. Now, even though it sits around a 6 or 7 power scale, it's one of my favourite and most fun decks to play because of the political game in multiplayer and the fact that it budded from a 3-4 power starter Nicol Bolas deck

[@jamesoakley9333]

I have my primary deck that is the remnants of a ghave pre-con . Its somewhere in the 7-8 range these days. The lands needed upgraded from stock but I still feature some tapped lands. I do have a few tutors and a win con.

[@alexortiz9595]

i would use audible if the magic novels were on there. sadly they are not

[@fernandopires135]

ty guys very much for this talk. I always assumed that my Tymaret aristrocrats was a 7-8, but by your standards its a 5 at best, it can really help when playing with strangers just saying "oh mine is a command zone 5" instead of "I think its a 7" also I always assumed that the gap between an 8 and a 9 was massive which is one of the main reasons of why people get their power levels mixed up

[@blakechreene5230]

I play at multiple lgss’ and man 7-10 is where I see a lot decks. To this day, if see 5-color decks I think of here comes hermit Druid 😂.

[@wesleyjudson599]

One thing that I have noticed about decks that are power 8 or higher and 2 or lower is that they actually play well with fewer decks. For example, a power 4 deck can play with anything between 2 to 7(range of 6) and still have fun, but a power 9 deck can only really play with anything between 7 to 10(range of 4). This isn't the only reason why I tend towards focused and casual play, but its one of the big ones.

[@wesleyjudson599]

the biggest is because I'm a cheapskate, and don't have money.

[@PhazonOmega]

I was thinking of my Anja deck when you were explaining power levels by turns to win. Definitely an 8 by that level, BUT was also thinking there isn't much I can do to protect my strategy, bringing down to a lower level (probably 7). This video really helped me visualize this stuff better, especially considering the power level by turns to win!

[@MikeB-dn5li]

Someone in my playgroup plays Teferi CEDH but he took out the win conditions so he basically just plays it to take 30 minute long turns then pass to counter everything until he eventually loses. What would the power level of a deck like that be?

[@kkkrisada]

The Command Zone should have an episode dedicated to cEDH with a guest host. Talk about the differences and myths that separate casual and hyper competitive. Importance of turn order and priority, prioritizing interaction in deckbuilding...

[@nasaya77]

YES, IVE BEEN NEEDING THIS EPISODE!!

[@peterlewandowski9912]

The EDH format is a casual format, even though you can play it competitively. Because of that, I think Commander games involve a social contract - you don't have to tell someone all the ways your deck wins, but you should be willing to talk a little about the power level of your deck. The social contract is about having fun and playing good clean magic, at least, for me and my play group. So share, be yourself, have fun.

[@peterlewandowski9912]

Also, we shoot for Optimized decks in our group. If there's a particular card (or even a combo) that feels bad, we talk about it and have generated our own 'ban list.'

[@MadMage86]

You hinted at it with Yarrok, but the commander itself can 'lock' your deck into a certain range; Yarrok, for example, is unlikely to be below a 4 if the player built the deck to lean into Yarrok's ability at all; on the other hand, there are a great number of commander with no abilities or irrelevant abilities which cannot be above a 5 regardless of the cards within simply due to lack of a relevant ability in the command zone. I know a player who runs a Yisan deck who swears it is casual, but Yisan literally cannot be built below a 7 without serious effort.

[@Squidxx-fg7ih]

Never thought I'd hear Josh say the nut draw on camera. lol 😂

[@csantoro7738]

When josh puts mill into 5 and 6 and forgets about painters servant and grindstone.

[@hive_mind5869]

That combo is only a 7 or 8 l. Also just because your deck has that combo does not make it a mill deck.

[@csantoro7738]

@@hive_mind5869 true, but I just wanted to point out that there is definitely mill in cEDH as a wincon

[@garthonclithith341]

Not running enough cards, I struggle to get it down to 100

[@besthubiever]

They made an episode on cutting and trimming cards that might help you

[@krevin543]

The Nitpicking Nerds have a great video on this too! Used to think my decks were a bit more powerful then they are lol. But it’s oddly freeing- I know I have room to grow and am not bumping the 8-9 realm.

[@cowoljarwoff]

I started powering down all my decks a while ago. The consistency, and same combo wins within a few turns got honestly so fn boring! It got to a point where, in a few turns I almost always had the ability to tutor my combo to go off and win in that same turn, but I would tutor for something fun or interesting instead. Just anything to keep my love for the game alive. My Oloro deck (my favourite deck I've ever made) was maybe an 8.5 or 9, and I've made it a 7-ish by just straight up removing my combo pieces. I needed to re-learn my love for commander. In my dabbling in powerful decks there's one thing I learned, CEDH sounds like a perpetual groundhog day nightmare.

[@supernoodles908]

Focus 6=Budget competitive I think if you're on a budget focused is normally the max you'll get. $25-$75 per deck. Although you can occasionally make a seven if you have existing cards and don't have to make the deck from scratch

[@shellshockthelagiacrus3247]

Tbh I feel like my decks are probably in the focused only area with maybe one of them being a seven and that being my locust God deck

[@turtleman6749]

I typically rate by the value of the deck, this way it also informs people just getting into the game with their budget deck

[@SuperCred1t]

You guys are too worried about offending people on their decks lol I think we all know you're just trying to help

[@thezerowulf507]

2019, what are you gonna do. Someone probably still got offended.

[@andrewl9191]

@@thezerowulf507 That's the hip thing to say and all, but it just used to be called, "being nice," or, "not being a jerk."

[@CR-kr9cs]

I play Zada and the power level is dependent on my opponents. If there is no removal pointed my way it is a 10, give me 4 turns and the table will be dead. Remove my Zada or kill my tokens then it’s sitting around a 6-8. Continuously wipe my board or make it so I can’t attack and I’m sitting at a 3-4. If I had to outright rate it I would say it’s an 8. If I spent a few hundred on fast mana and some decent interaction it would be a 10. It’s a very aggressive strategy and has the ability to draw most of your deck and dish out hundreds of damage with very small amounts of mana. But in order to reach this level of consistency and mana electiveness I’ve removed any form or interaction, and replaced those card slots with more ritual effects.

[@NoremacNeek]

I’ve pissed a lot of people off by saying my power level was lower than it was for the pod. The problem is that everyone interprets things differently.

[@jeffswett4579]

I've had that happen and what i find helpful is ask what someone is running ir better yet if you can thumb through their deck. If they say six but are running fetches or fast mana with mana vault or something like that you can be like well if this is what you thin a six is then mine is this or that. Also it helps you get an idea of what they think it helps you gauge higher or lower.

[@ilianceroni]

With my friends we have our own “scale”: “for fun” (it’s no going to win without luck), for everyday (basically every deck) and “competitive” (it’s not cEDH, just deck where the commander is already strong, like Urza or Narset). This Scale help us to be clear when start to play

[@sophiethesloth]

Episodes where each deck is power leveled same then move up ,so it's a full play list power 1 - 10

[@Mich3linM4n]

"There are no mill decks at 9 or 10." Pretty sure Oona Infinite Mill is a cEDH build

[@samhparker]

I definitely don't like the command zone for the blanketed statements they make. A lot of times they'll be talking and in the heat of the moment they'll say something completely off just based on their subjective point of view. I love 'em but it still irks me when it happens

[@tronowolf]

Mill is just something that no one likes to play against. Card interaction is what makes commander fun, not a slimy win strategy. That's why mill-proofing exists. Once a deck is mill proofed, the strategy whiffs.

[@Tehnameless1]

Oona is more like a combo deck than a mill. Mill would look more like Phenax

[@tntmage7-250]

As a cEDH player, that and the no voltron bugged me. Most blue decks can/will win with blue sun’s zenith, and godo is just a combo-y voltron. Also they talk about the game ending on turn 4. If your decks are good, it’s not ending before turn 6-7 because the interaction is so good

[@benjnorris57]

TNTmage7 - they said “threaten to win” as in you will win if not stopped.