I made Dustbowl a Fun Balanced 100 player Payload map

[@shounic]

out on the server now! “shounic trenches” 45.62.160.71:27015 getting a 100 people to show up to test maps is hard :( if you’re interested, please join the trenches discord (discord.com/invite/5RutXa3dGh ) and sign up for notifications @ #ping-me :) i think the next thing i'm doing is making a literal circle map fyi, i think the map probably won’t need more changes after this, but there’s only so much you can test with lab rats ahead of time. ofc if new issues pop up i’ll adjust the map more and last, lmk if mapping videos is interesting/fun? i want the trenches to have better maps so i’m probably making a few. if it’s interesting content then i might as well turn them into videos also also retrospectively looking at it, i think this video probably flows better if i went through all the changes directly rather than area by area, but unfortunately that’s something that only became evident after finishing the video :(

[@zombine7103]

Bro, did you release this map on workshop?

[@elijah9274]

The invite seems to be invalid :(

[@nutitoo]

Is it possible to send you maps to test on the streams? i have one that i'm currently working on :)

[@aeyde]

o

[@hablo_papøl]

i like the mapping videos!

[@purpleapple4052]

I dunno why but "stock map but i in another gamemode" is one of my favorite types of TF2 maps, I recall coming across the old Payload Dustbowl, and also Payload 2Fort, MVM 2Fort, PD Hightower, and even Koth Turbine

[@MxCrab]

KOTH Turbine must be better than CTF Turbine at least

[@purpleapple4052]

Shoutout to my favorite map like this: DT Harvest, stands for "Double Trouble" (you can find it in the workshop as "Dubbel Trubbel") Harvest but the barns have an upper floor intel room, it's ctf and koth at the same time, you can win by capping the intel 3 times or holding the point for 10 minutes

[@hollyblocky]

You're right. Plr_well

[@Markm8]

Bump

[@TheDinomar]

PD hightower? You mean hightower?

[@mwn3d_]

2:54 "Even without changes this area is actually fine" *cart returns to its home planet*

[@Maniamdead2009]

Lol

[@Ana_Ng]

that's a demoman

[@Fin_leaderඞ6969]

The cart is the only lonely one it gets pushed then stops and never goes backwards

[@the_scrompy]

5:52 that bonk scout is a genius lol

[@SwiftBlitz.]

that scout has 500 missed calls from harvard

[@thealandude9146]

the bullet sponge

[@Wadetata]

@@SwiftBlitz.real

[@lightningvolt3150]

He's a hero

[@FaultyTwo]

Megamind tier play.

[@glameow12345]

8:16 something added there to indicate that you can’t shoot through or something to block the view into the last point would probably be a good addition

[@spring_nottheseason2484]

just slap another metal block building

[@memesmemes3143]

nop , let gamers figure that out the hard way lol !! its funni

[@orangesilver8]

I'd just throw a fence on it.

[@ghoulbuster1]

A nice assortment of FENCES will take care of THAT!

[@Dubauabud]

I think that area should be removed entirely, and instead of a band-aid solution that sticks out like a sore thumb, edit the map in a different way

[@bananabunch55]

"Dustbowl" "Fun" and "Balanced" do not belong in the same sentence, yet you made it work

[@csharp-animemusic6558]

dustbowl is always fun, but only for one team

[@kR-qj7rw]

This is bitch talk dust bowl is fun and balances as long as teams are balanced Because when you get some f2p in your team, ragequitters and people who give up that's when you get send to spawn

[@lipschitzlyapunov]

​@@csharp-animemusic6558no, sometimes it's not fun on red if you're on a team of troglodytes

[@Honorablepleb]

​@kR-qj7rw I disagree. Even if two teams are a good match for each other and you're enjoying it, the map is just fundamentally unbalanced. Certain classes do MUCH worse on dustbowl than on other maps, with spies, scouts, pyros and snipers being almost useless at certain stages or chokes. And you're likely to be at those chokes for a long time because the map layout is unbalanced, usually favoring the defending team. This is all without mentioning that two evenly matched teams are more than likely just going to stalemate and run out the clock. Don't get me wrong, I like playing on dustbowl. Its just that you either have fun on dustbowl, but it won't be balanced, balanced dustbowl, but it won't be fun, or you can have balanced fun, just not on dustbowl. It's in my casual queue for a reason, but it being a good competitive environment is not that reason

[@electrifiedbathbomb7383]

So is 100 players

[@sonzillamariocraft]

Like how most of the problems can be dwindled down to "Engineers and Sentrys." And they can be fixed by just "making players be able to see."

[@bloonbrawler9872]

Visibility is one of the more important things of a map

[@ethanhayes7038]

Fun Fact: Valve already made a pl_Dustbowl, but it ended up being so thoroughly overhauled that they had to rename it. And that's how we got Goldrush.

[@TinyDeskEngineer]

This sounds like it's a joke, but a check of the map's trivia section on the wiki shows it's real. Although it started as a Control Points map, not Payload, named "Dustbowl 2".

[@Eshyyyyy]

@@TinyDeskEngineer Dustbowl2 originally started as a continuation of TFC's Attack/Defend, where Blue would bring their flag (or Intel in TF2) to Red's points. In the leaked map you can see Blue having a briefcase right outside their spawn, with control points designed a lot like how they were in TFC.

[@dimsthedimwit600]

​​@@EshyyyyyFuck, the idea of a gamemode where you need to bring a flag to the enemy' position sounds interesting. Wish we ever got to play it Oh wait, Carnival of Carnage

[@samushunter242]

​@@dimsthedimwit600 I love the reverse ctf idea

[@dimsthedimwit600]

@@samushunter242 Technically Carnival of Carnage and its normal counterpart(The one where you send a monkey to space) do that

[@ConcavePgons]

This channel is going to be so valuable for game designers on what they should probably think about when creating levels in multiplayer games.

[@toadboydude5015]

Exactly what I'm thinking during every Shounic video.

[@aidnyan]

these are just bandaid changes for a meme gamemode, dont get ahead of yourself

[@Ultra289]

Nah, 100 players on a small map is just not good design at all...

[@marcowulliampopirers2216]

Maybe for TF2 maps but i don't see how it would be helpful in other games

[@ConcavePgons]

@@marcowulliampopirers2216 I meant helpful in the sense that you can see the mindset and method of iterating the level design based on what happens during matches (which can be applied to any multiplayer game).

[@ThatWolfArrow]

My takeaways from this seem to be good rules of thumb for general map design in tf2's asymmetric game modes. 1). Avoid chokes and long sightlines 2). Make more flank routes 3). Use a healthy amount of open space and cover to balance out points 1 and 2

[@mikerotch42069]

cringe furry

[@tasertag7513]

Sounds about right.

[@joltz..2042]

So... Do we have thousands very short wide rooms with wide doors?

[@ESALTEREGO]

​@@joltz..2042basically, all maps in every shooter game are just wide boxes interconnected by a bunch of narrower boxes

[@Funkin_Disher]

Step 1: Widen all openings Step 2: lift all ceilings Step 3: combine stages Step 4: Steal from cp_crudball

[@qw3rty629]

step 5: add fences or one way doors on every other opening

[@Syamfprch]

Step 6: replace with gold rush

[@WiiFitGOTY]

What is crudball?

[@SonicEnthusiast-fst]

​@@WiiFitGOTYcrudma balls

[@manboy4720]

step 7: update localization files

[@duckwithhats]

Doing stuff like this on a 100 player server may actually be a decent way to test worst case scenarios in a 12v12 match and how to deal with them from a map making perspective.

[@10Tie]

@@priyapepsi "Whenever you test a new feature in a game you should test the extreme values/cases first, to see how it behaves." - Sid Meier

[@vodkawhisperer3923]

its like a brute force approach

[@marlikbudvergard]

​@@10TieHe was so unbelievably based

[@bucket6988]

Coming from handling different gamemodes with varying population counts, it's not very representative

[@Bozothcow]

4:32 highest IQ engineer

[@ktrn6713]

6 phds

[@Koshara_is_derevni]

11*​

[@princesscadance197]

PHDs don’t stop a good ol *CROCKET*

[@Bozothcow]

Stepping out of the way helps, though.

[@lordfarquaad1319]

Glad i ain't the only one tht noticed tht bro didn't even get to deploy his turret lol

[@tangoww]

finally, the best worst best map

[@HellnawNaw-zq2jx]

So true

[@lil_lion69]

Love the over the shoulder shot at 7:05

[@hufics205]

(0:38) You a real one if you were there for that stream. The pain shounic went through to convert dustbowl to single stage is unimaginable. 6 hours of nothing but pain, anger, sorrow, and despair. That was my first stream that I stayed to watch. I became a veteran that day. Still waiting on my Purple Heart @shounic . You promised

[@UH-60_Blackhawk]

still waitin'

[@IceFlower22]

As soon as I heard him mention making dustbowl single stage, i knew. I've been making maps for quite a while and while I haven't made a three-stage map ever, I can certainly imagine how much pain it would be to unravel all of the map logic, lmao!

[@ESALTEREGO]

Trickbaited

[@Luzgar]

We now know what 100 on a regular map looks like, but what about the regular number of players on the 100 player map ?

[@bowser3017]

Cp orange

[@the_something_something]

would probably actually be fun

[@evanc3666]

You would never be able to find anyone

[@tuopi27]

glad to see shounic making normal maps for once, like a 100 person payload cp_dustbowl

[@artifactU]

its not cp its pl

[@Mandarin9900]

​@@artifactU It's a payload version of cp_dustbowl, exactly what he said

[@crockstonyt]

7:30 cheers to that Blu Demoknight that charged right into the chokepoint

[@ThatguycalledJoe]

You should put a fence on the roof to make it more visibly apparent that you can't shoot at last from up there. Like it wouldn't actually do anything because it's going over an invisible wall anyway, but it'd just be nice.

[@SarutinMcWhotookmyname]

i was thinking that too, i just dont like invisible walls

[@commanderboom2626]

Better yet just make the section you can’t stand on taller, that kind of change takes a few seconds and instantly alleviates confusion

[@thaias9654]

2:09 I think that was my dispenser. I'm pretty sure i remember that exact scenario leaving a pyro and medic to get more metal only to come back just as my dispenser get destroyed.

[@banananana2]

One thing Shounic didn’t say about the open roof on last was that it made getting the payload around the first/second corner for blu a bit harder cause it was just constantly raining pipes. Once blu took the second corner though it was over for red pretty quick

[@interrobang5785]

This is genuinely just a good lesson on map design

[@IncomingPun]

Making dustbowl one combined map is the best thing since teleporting sliced bread

[@prosto_a_user]

Teleporting *what?*

Where have you been sending it?!

[@tappajaav]

@ To my kitchen

[@hunterchichester5720]

​@@tappajaav ok

[@jeremypanjaitan4039]

shounic: ok so we will expand this area and make it more accesible to blue also shounic: F E N C E

[@creature1941]

I saw the title and said to myself “Impossible”

[@gameygames135]

100 player TF2 is a very exaggerated version of play testing where the problematic areas become more apparent than if it was yested with 24

[@MazDance]

Simplicity is king. You see a lot of “balance” designs the community have make some insanely drastic changes to maps so I respect the ability to show restraint and only make minor but impactful changes.

[@ZiggityZeke]

If Valve hired Shounic the entire gaming world would tremble in fear

[@quoogynuts]

no it wouldn't. just because he knows game design and balance doesn't mean he would shake the game industry

[@notzenodos02]

testing the previous versions was a blast honestly, tho its nice to see the map more polished by now also this was a good recap on how much changed over the time (there's stuff i didnt knew like the most recent changes imo) good job btw, you did well

[@ShovelLettuce]

6:19 is such a good shot with those sentry placements

[@UwUable_guy]

4:32 engineer watching his death

[@muffinconsumer4431]

11 PhDs

[@paragonflash8937]

I love how this video shows how map design and a simple action as adding a sliding door can impact balancing, flow, and gameplay for the player.

[@FlakManiak]

I love how simple your changes are. Sometimes bold, but still, it doesn't seem to take much! I would have thought myself "Dustbowl is horrible garbage through and through; surely it needs radical overhauls", but... Apparently not!

[@Maxae]

1:45 Damn, that reflect did save a lot of people there.

[@sharinganmoon]

I think leaving the roof accessible, but adding a fence to protect red last would be good on last. If blue can hold roof, they can see what to deal with on red last, similar to the new one way window.

[@SleepyEngi]

You should try making pl_dustbowl into a control points map, and maybe instead of just one huge map, you can divide it into "stages" every second point, and when the second point is captured, all players are sent back to their new spawn.

[@vendolanz6711]

TC_Hydro exists

[@mr.shplorb662]

What a novel idea

[@thomastheman6476]

bro this us awesomeness!! ever since the first time i played i think it would be so cool to play through the entirety of dust bowl and maybe even as payload or mvm lol- epic stuff as always ^^

[@sortofgamingfiller]

Super rare dustbowl w

[@blu3m0nkey]

Nah, that's just because they did it

[@tappajaav]

Every dustbowl game someone wins.

[@parkercrouse3898]

0:20 Dustbowl being way to stalematey? Next your gonna tell me that fire is hot

[@daniboi_oneninefive]

ice is cold

[@thewall915]

R.I.P the random engi at 4:32 taken from us by a random crit

[@some_body_else3636]

may his soul rest in peace 🙏🕊️

[@SnowflakeTheProtogen]

Him in particular lol

[@rumpus5633]

TF2's April 23rd Patch Notes: 'Fixed a crash under 64-bit caused by some custom HUDs using Half-Life 2 HUD elements which assume the player is Gordon Freeman' we need a video about this lmao

[@dredoctor8271]

7:40 , so cool. You are one of the amazing TF2 content creators! I hope Valve recognizes you and apprise you for all the motivation + effort in keeping such big projects in development.

[@GlowingOrangeOoze]

6:07 that chainlink fence either has some kind of texture bug or it's exhibiting some of the strangest moiré effect I've seen.

[@AlexanderRM1000]

I love the part where you put a one-way gate on one door but not the other, so Red can still go in and Blue can also retreat if they change their mind in a push, it just gives Blue an advantage. Also love the 1-way glass window.

[@Iris-po9dw]

Im just sad I never got a cameo :(... Jokes aside, I like what you did to this map. It was a good experience to be on your streams and watch you suffe- I MEAN easily balance this map ;). Oh and... 👁‍🗨

[@quoing]

Since we already made it single stage we should also make it single checkpoint

[@e2b265]

One 20 minute checkpoint

[@lpsp442]

Going over the roof on the final point looks so fun and feels so intuitive. It seems like a good alternative version of the map would explore this variant of last, with some appropriate limiters like fencing, maybe one-way glass in RED's favour, or contact hazards so careless BLUs take damage for walking over or standing around on the roof. The current version works very well, but should use some fencing on said roof to make it clear that you cannot move or shoot through the area presented.

[@aloysiuskurnia7643]

4:34 RIP to this engie who was killed by Fairness and Balance(TM)

[@empty5013]

this is great level design work, the one way glass in particular is creative but also feels very in line with vanilla valve map design, and makes a unique engagement area, really cool

[@XradicalD]

Love to see that a lot of the core elements of TF2 are pretty much thrown out the window due the huge amount of things going on lol. Pretty much turns every map into a Hyrule Warriors like version of the map (ample space for ample units). Neat to see, maybe spacing different routes could help to route players rather than trying to pile 100 players in a single tunnel but I'm sure that would require an entirely original map layout at that point. Still, wonderful work.

[@mr.vehickL]

ive always held dust bowl in a special place in my heart because it was the first ever map i played when i played tf2 for the first time. i love dust bowl and would love to see pl_dustbowl in the next 13 years when valve update the

[@perfectmimic.2611]

I think i watched, like, 3 or 4 videos here where putting a fence kinda resoves the issue...for me this has sprout a new tf2 meme: "What is the the problem? have you tried..put a fence in it?"

[@kabob0077]

1:25 It's a bit like Fort Vaux in BF1 during an Operation, the outer parts play fine and usually fall fast to a decently good attacking team but OH BOY are the first interior sections hard to crack from the outside, the generator room in particular is just pure chaos.

[@kiwo579]

“more initiative” *footage of heavy shooting window*

[@retrobat1631]

0:12 I would have made that stair case into a broken one leading down with the other side of the stairs blocked off.

[@suryaanshsingh589]

my guy single handedly making tf2 updates

[@EDoyl]

I like how dustbowl is so defender-favored normally that you only ever have to think in terms of buffing offense until they fairly win. There's no switching back and forth, the only task at every stage is making BLU wins easier, you NEVER have to consider how to buff RED. So you can always be thinking in exactly the same way and get into a good flow.

[@tymunster]

I love this for being so subtle. It shows how map design is a science, but doesn't need to be overcomplicated.

[@flyingshark872]

I recently played this map in 100 players. One thing I can say is that if you are blue you can definitely push, rush and spam reds easily since setup time is gone and choke points where sentries delay blues does no exist anymore or should I say “become a new flank route for blue.” In the end. If you are blue you have 80% chance of winning and if you are red you either spam blue constantly (which probably won’t work) or get pushed back cause reds are in very big disadvantage with “new flanks” exist (reds gets easily surrounded.)

[@Joschmo939]

I enjoyed your explanation and rationale of making the changes on this map! Great job

[@apchistuz]

Dallas is portrayed by Eric Etebari, but voiced by Simon Kerr in all 3 games.

[@Josukegaming]

You're doing gods work. We need more tweaked versions of classic maps like this, rather than totally new maps that also have their own problems.

[@NecroBurt]

Seeing the amputator being meta is cool

[@snowy2619]

Love how a simple add on such as one door can help, also didn’t know one way glass was a thing in tf2, very cool video shounic

[@bigblue344]

I'm surprised on how well thought out and balanced this map is

[@CaptainJimp]

I played on the server for 5 hours last night, and it's crazy how some things become super viable with teams of 50. Amputator taunt Spamming is crazy helpful, and carpet bombing with the airstrike and parachute are ridiculously fun when there are 20 people on the point at once.

[@microwveman2063]

Got to play this map and it was amazing. I lost my shit when I realized it was all one map lolol

[@TheSeabornGaming]

I’ve never really seen someone do this before. This brings a whole new personality to the map

[@SwitchyGlitchyDagio7]

It took me until 5:21 to realize what 100 players means

[@tasertag7513]

Dusty bowl. Mmm. Don't lick it.

[@Milotaur]

looking forward to playing this on the server

[@Waaaghtatic]

I really do hope you expand a bunch of other older maps in the same way you did with Dustbowl. This is such a cool idea.

[@Concorn1]

That heavy eating casually a sandwich and going straight to the dispenser at 5:08

[@maxwellsterling]

"just one more lane bro" bros when the one more lane actually works

[@trevorhiggins9980]

I wonder if "try it with 100 players and see if it's still fun" would be a overall good test to see if a map is well designed

[@AGrayPhantom]

I told Valve YEARS ago that Scout didnt need new weapons to be at the same level as Soldier or Demo, but better maps that aren't hallways. Thanks for finally improving Dustbowl.

[@abe881]

You did all this work, but saying the secret phrase of "Everyone go gunspy" would've broken any stalemate in a few minutes

[@irregularassassin6380]

Imagine having to push the payload down the middle track of Dustbowl point 1, then loop into the structure, up the stairs, and then across the bridge into tunnel ... and then from there to through the Dustbowl Beta flank to a dropdown onto point 2. It would be a choky mess for Blue to push through directly, so they'd have to push into the area through alternate routes in order to clear a path for the cart pushers. You'd be reversing the roles of the flanks and the main path. I have no idea if it could work, but I kind of like the idea of a payload map treating the cart not as a rolling HQ, but something you need to clear a path for.

[@VelocityLP]

8:15 I'd like to see that building extended vertically. No reason to be able to see over onto last if you can't fire any projectiles in that directions.

[@vulpen]

"Payload dustbowl" My brother in chriist, we already have goldrush

[@Jacob-Jack]

8:55 when briefly playing on the test server, i did get the misfortune of having to experience the roof attacks while on RED defending last at least sniping's a good job, mate

[@uwulasagna]

never thought i'd hear "fun" and "dustbowl" in the same sentence

[@azmiilian2277]

Now the broken railways on Dustbowl has a purpose

[@daviddavies9190]

Getting that last point is killer! Should be another flank to the bunker or something to stop that last corner congestion.

[@teiyeyia]

I don't know what it is, but the changes reminds me of those "stock" Halloween reskin maps

[@iamlato]

i think making the roof accessible at last but adding a fence surrounding the entire thing could work, kind of like barnblitz last

[@sonikkuffffff]

so is it balanced for blu, or towards blu? how often does red lose? does the one-way mirror really need to be one way? walking on the roof on last and not being able to shoot your sight line, and also being able to plan ahead for their sentry positions, does that make sense? can you not place a taller building there? are either of these last two anywhere consistent with valve design? i felt like i couldn't agree with anything aesthetically until your elegant gate solution on last. but you make important discoveries and are doing well developmentally based on good data. keep developing it.

[@christopherm4739]

This now makes me think....was Dustbowl more balanced when we had 2007 rules? (Only level 3 sentry, can't move engineer buildings, no airblast, no unlocks, uber can be held if you switch off medigun.) And the reason it sucks now is because the massive change to how TF2 works?

[@cyberpancakee6627]

Could you do hydro with 100 players or make a territorial control map, it would be cool for 100 players

[@FamilyAccount-g7l]

There's actually something should be added for blu to fix alot of problems that you faced, a high ground flank route for scout ,spy or some power class. This would actually spread the red attention. i suggest 5 flank routes or 1 or 2 each choke points or points

[@eljestLiv]

Payload Dustbowl, also knows as Goldrush

[@Aderalls]

I think an extra art pass, or a style change might go a long way in making this extra professional looking. Also, mode swaps gotta be one of my favorite categories of maps

[@MarcusFigueras]

Bomb in dustbowl call that dustcloud

[@jocosesonata]

It'd be neat if you could do the same for DeGroot Keep. Or at least hold a map making competition, and expanded to be the same length as this 100 Player Dustbowl map. Just imagine a huge wave of Demoknights charging across the field, as archers blot the skies with arrows.

[@Someone_1994]

love the fixes

[@joshuaforeman27]

Amazing, stellar, incredible work breathing life into this game. Thank you!!!!

[@petzouqi76]

"Schounic" making the most classic maps in TF2 fun just like how "Schlicker" would describe the year of '99

[@PlagueDoctor-87]

as someone that plays almost exclusively on OG dustbowl, this map looks so cursed

[@blu3m0nkey]

Not if you think of it as 2 dustbouls at once

[@MTN6516]

Played a round on here this morning, was on defense. We got rolled to last, and we needed to defend last for 11-12 minutes It was some of the most fun of tf2 for me, as we tried our best to hold them back, and did all we could, and we managed. So much fun, and a refreshing way to play dustbowl.