In Defense of Etiquette

[@N1IA-4]

Great video, Jordan. I agree that etiquette is lost on many folks today, even Christians. I get annoyed at the lack of manners and etiquette here in America....and in our churches. It's a real problem.

[@yuy168]

My wife and I were discussing recently how this also happens in the workplace. There’s so much anxiety that comes in when a manager tries to act like a friend. People in positions of authority actually are being kind of deceptive when they are overly intimate with those they have authority over. Not because people in authority are intrinsically evil or something, but because of the nature of their authority they may be required to make tough decisions or act against the interest of individual subordinates. Maintaining a certain level of distance actually provides a level of safety and security. It’s that much harder to lose your job or be disciplined if a person acted overly intimate before and that actually makes it harder to trust them. It’s actually a very cruel thing to be “nice” in many contexts.

[@cornwallacemontgomery]

Totally agree. I feel like something that contributes to this is how in Western media they always portray etiquette as this high class thing that the quirky main character righteously disrupts. Not only that but just the fact that literally everyone around you growing up tells you to just be yourself.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

You're comment on the quirky main character is spot on. And it has a profound impact on us.

[@zaktan7197]

A strange example of a main character who displays the opposite attitude is Samarai Jack. Everywhere he goes he meets quirky characters while being the one with etiquette and respect for other cultures while still holding onto his moral principles. He is slow to show offense, quick to offer an apology, and quick to forgive. Our culture could probably use more examples like that.

[@popokiobake]

"Driving ~ Etiquette" is non-existent where operators of 2 wheeled vehicles are concerned, particularly bicyclists of conventional bicycles, and lately - E bicycles.

[@obradonet]

I especially appreciate your analyses on the vacuous modern notion of the "self" and I've often thought about this exact same subject lately, it's nice to hear someone else's thoughts on the matter. Keep up the excellent work Dr. Cooper, God bless.

[@paulacoyle5685]

16:37 "not using it to judge the people around you" 😂 oh it's used both ways, but it definitely helps you to understand what is going on when somebody steps on your toes as well and respond graciously as possible while not assuming guilt for a faux pas that isn't yours. (but you seemed to allude to that) Consider a situation where friends routinely treat another friend rudely or insensitively, etiquette allows someone to acknowledge that the behavior is rude or insensitive (in effect judging that persons behavior) but it also restrains someone from jumping down their throat for the behavior, and also helps the victim of that rude behavior from assuming that they are being treated that way because of something bad they have done. also, many of us enjoy the writings of Jane Austen where you have so many different characters all adhering to rules of etiquette but you can also see where those rules can fail and who is using them just to try and climb socially.

[@ContemplativeSoul]

I watched this 24 hours ago and I'm still thinking about this. I think I could stand to explore this topic more, especially in regards to how nasty our culture has become for the sake of authenticity, and I have fallen prey to this too and I want to be better. Lord have mercy.

[@Liisa3139]

Etiquette even helped people to stay fit, although that was not the motivation of it. There were rules even within the family. You had meals at certain hours and you did not snack between them. You did not eat while walking in the street. If you bought something from a food stand, you sat down on a bench and ate there. I think it looks terrible when people eat or drink while walking. It is disrespectful toward the food and toward other people. Food should not be taken for granted. It should be consumed peacefully and with gratitude. Takeaways don't just trash the streets, they also trash our minds.

[@CamGaylor]

I think the Japanese are a good example how mass etiquette compliance leads to a positive impact on society. I have worked trade shows with many Japanese people and their etiquette is top notch. They show so much respect to everyone. They are polite and clean as well.

[@SomeFinnishGuyJukka]

Good point. But I wish Japanese companies did not require such long hours so that the employees could have a life outside of work, love their spouses and spend time with their kids, normal things like that. If they had a healithier work-life balance, Japanese society would be more sustainable. There are many great things to conserve there.

[@k98killer]

I agree with the notion that having a structure to follow is advantageous for humans, and that etiquette leads to cultivation of virtue. I go further: without virtue, civilization is doomed. Etiquette is not the only means of obtaining virtue: John Chrysostom says that brotherly love and virtue are inseparable; whoever has one will develop the other. The Orthodox fake-it-till-you-make-it approach also makes sense given the likely actuality of morphic fields, and this is how cultivation of virtue through love and etiquette occurs.

[@MatrixQ]

I'd never thought about the way these kinds of rules affect the self, that's an interesting aspect, thank you. I always kind of looked at rules like that in a different way. Basically, my working theory was that there are laws and rules (etiquette). Laws are the absolute limit to what we allow. It's where the buck stops, cross them and you put yourself outside of the group, in the harshest terms. Rules are much stricter, but at the same time breaking them can be forgiven much easier. They are not always necessary, but they serve a very specific function: show that you are able and willing to follow rules, which is how you present yourself as trustworthy to not break the laws as well. Of course there's a feedback loop in a sense that once you keep yourself inside the rules, you are generally less likely to break the laws as well.

[@Outrider74]

A society’s etiquette is ultimately a sneak preview of its underlying ethics and worldvie

[@mrs.teilborg649]

I have enjoyed all you videos and haven't heard a topic yet that I didn't want you to delve into more. Thank you for all the time you put into these to teach us!!

[@takezo6783]

I wonder if this could be related to a possible overall change in two (probably related) areas: 1) An overall simplification in popular things. Good examples might be fashion becoming more casual (even today's business suits are themselves a simplified version of an older outfit, also let's remember that Mr. Rogers' version of "getting casual" still involved wearing a tie) and languages getting simpler (no one uses case systems anymore, for example, or the intentional effort to simplify traditional Chinese, also whatever Gen z is doing with emojis). There's probably something here about music too. 2) An overall breakdown in boundaries between groups in a general sense. There's no longer an explicit "nobility" class and all the stuff that goes with that (e.g., sumptuary laws). In more recent times we have more adults doing and openly enjoying things that would have been considered exclusively for children in the past (video games, comic book stuff). The games/shows my parents enjoyed as children are completely different from the games/shows they play as adults...the games/shows my friends played as children are the same games/shows that they are playing as adults and passing on to their own kids. There's less formality...less using "Mr." and "Mrs./Ms." (as least in regards to children being taught how to address adults...as a kid this was drilled into me, but as an adult I find that I really don't care if a kid calls me by my first name). My dad sits on the floor to watch tv sometimes and he once told me that he could never even imagine his own father sitting on the floor. My pet theory is that this is relates to how society is organized: a long time ago in a galaxy far away the dude with the most strength was in charge and, in order to maintain this position, he had to quickly punish any insubordination. This means that people around the dude needed to know exactly what to do and say so that the dude wouldn't kill them...thus rules of etiquette were born . We still see this in dictatorships today (and it's probably not a coincidence that we see an emphasis on this in the military...also in some relationships with emotionally volatile people, like if you know that mom freaks when you talk about x topic then you develop a way of avoiding x or indirectly addressing x). This trickled down through society as lords needs to know how to not get executed by the king and peasants need to know how to not get executed by their lords. Since we don't really have that kind of society anymore we are slowly learning that a lot of this stuff is irrelevant (in a general sense, obviously there are specific environment that are still like this). My other theory is that the basics of manners (saying please and thank you, for example) are sort of like hacks we have discovered in order to mitigate natural human emotional responses. For example, telling someone to do something (especially someone you don't know) has the potential to get a negative or even hostile response because it could make them feel threatened, but adding "please," (which comes from "if you please" or "if it would please you") dissipates that. "Thank you" comes from "I will remember what you did for me" and is a good way to reward a positive behavior by assuring the person that it won't be useless to them.

[@lkae4]

This was awesome. The unnecessary division I see in the online Christian community seems to be largely from lack of etiquette-- nagging and trying to control the ministry work of complete strangers and throwing around labels like heretic and unsaved at those who disagree on secondary matters. Please do more.

[@hawks5999]

What do you think of the idea that we are in a post-authenticity era of identity. Moeller's theory of profilicity suggests that with the rise of social media we are no longer driven by a desire for authenticity but rather for how we appear via our constructed personas online. Violating the new rules of etiquette carry harsh penalties related to the cancellation or deletion of your of persona.

[@christianajohnston6594]

I just read "Little Women" and etiquette was something they were concerned about and conscientious of in their daily life. I'm interested in reading the manner books you mentioned! Thanks for touching on this important topic! A longer video would be great!

[@thekynologist155]

So needed NOW! Thank you, P Cooper!

[@arielalejandroferrastabref9287]

know im more concious about my manners thankyou jc

[@Swiftninjatrev]

This is something interesting to think about. I've been taught to say please, and thank you. (Don't always say yes (or no) please.) I try to wait for people before I eat, but usually we don't do that. It annoys me that everyone prays and thanks God for the food without me though, but that's a me problem because I'm too slow. Opening doors for other people. I don't remember much else at the moment.

[@princechukwuemeka6253]

It would be awesome if you made this a series!

[@michaelkistner6286]

I'd never given serious thought to this. It does dovetail into something I've been focusing on for the last several years, though. My hot take is that etiquette is a way of showing solidarity with a group. It functions as an informal marker of trustworthiness. Of course it's possible to game this system and people do it all the time. But that doesn't change the fact that etiquette is a way of separating us from them. Its disappearance signals a deeper malady. The glue that once bound us together is failing.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Agreed.

[@salli4588]

Thank you for this discussion. Very well put. I believe good manners and etiquette is an important way to obey our Lord's command to love others ans we love ourselves and treat others the way we would like to be treated. The practice of good manners causes us to try to put ourselves in another's place.

[@aaronhayes7877]

The further west in the country you go, the less formal it becomes, which makes things like Etiquette even more difficult. In places like Idaho, Montana, Wyoming etc...informality IS the formality, which means you're the outsider if you "dress for the occasion" or use proper grammar, place settings, etc...Before I became a confessional Lutheran, I had experiences in evangelical churches out west where someone would show up in a blazer, with the "greeters" saying "Good to see ya, we're informal here so you don't need your jacket!"

[@markhorton3994]

I hope that some basics of etiquete never disappear. Such as not chrwing with one's mouth open, not talking with ones mouth full and greeting someone who enters a room.

[@johnkennedy5528]

‘Looking for the good in other people…’

[@nicholaibjoring624]

Would love to see more of these videos on etiquette.

[@AnselmInstitute]

Great video. Stephen Carter wrote a good, related book entitled: Civility.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

I'll check it out.

[@stephenkneller6435]

Great video. I think it would be beneficial to have side videos to describe the basics. Society as a whole definitely could benefit from exposure to etiquette.

[@jackcrow1204]

Dr. Cooper You have my favorite cultural takes

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Thanks!

[@timothygudz8756]

where has he previously discussed "authenticity" ?

[@DanieltheBaptist]

This was a good follow up to your video on dress and appearance

[@collettewhitney2141]

@dr Jordan Cooper Another enlighten content. But etiquette is very important. I believe in the concept of being able to have a civil conversation. And the importance of being articulate and polite. And how you put yourself over to others And have good manners. Like Table managers And don't use bad language in conversation And the how we dress I would also like to say it Christian self discipline. God bless you 🙏

[@Smoky_Crow]

I'm normally practice etiquette. I go out of my way to dress nice depending what I have. I try to look the best I can and manners are part of my life. A lot of people have lost etiquette.

[@joecoolmccall]

I do think etiquette is important, but it isn't universal, unless we aren't defining it the same way. Or perhaps I am blurring it with manners, which you briefly touched upon at the beginning of the video.

[@duncescotus2342]

Render etiquette to those to whom etiquette is due, and love to all others.

[@villarrealmarta6103]

Profound

[@bionicmosquito2296]

Dr. Cooper, you made a comment something like "rules of etiquette aren't universal or objective truths." Something like this. But I wonder...just as natural law (based on objective realities) might be manifest in details differently in different cultures, cannot the same be said regarding rules of etiquette? A further question: it struck me as you were talking that there is a connection between this loss of etiquette to our loss of the ideas of truth, beauty, and goodness. And perhaps this ties to the idea of natural law as well. Am I wrong in considering such a connection?

[@DrJordanBCooper]

I would say that there are objective realities that are expressed through ritual, manners, etc. within various cultures, but that the particular forms of expression are historically dependent and somewhat subjective. And yes, you are absolutely correct that the loss of etiquette is part of the broader problem of the loss of the transcendentals.

[@michael6549]

There's not a little irony in a lecture on etiquette being given by a follower of Martin Luther. But I don't just mean to poke fun. I appreciated the lecture. I lived in the UK for six years and had to learn a lot about British etiquette, especially in the world of academia. Honestly, it really bothered me because it felt like everyone was bending over backwards to be collegial and not offend anyone. I think that kind of "etiquette" is not desirable or constructive. I quite like when people feel free to "speak their minds", as long as it's not done in order to abuse or destroy someone. People often confuse heated arguments with lack of etiquette.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

That's not inherent in etiquette itself. That's just British culture.

[@MortenBendiksen]

I reject this notion that we are born selfish. It's like calling a seed selfish. No, it's just doing what is needed to become the flower that makes the world beautiful. First a seed takes in, then it slowly learns to look outside, then it prepares for flowering and then it flowers. Selfishness is the idea, which only an adult can develop, of flowering for oneself alone as opposed to for the sake of beauty. A selfish seed would just not grow, not push against the world and only take in minimally and stay a seed.

[@TheologyMukbang]

This was very helpful.

[@blackforestgiant648]

Dr. Cooper while talking about society today suddenly throws in Augustine's "homo incurvatus". 👌

[@OutcastWriter31]

I would love more talks on etiquette. I have recently lost my husband and find myself raising a daughter and son alone, so I would especially love more on raising sons to be well-mannered gentlemen. I feel quite lost at the thought of raising a son without my husband's guidance and masculine influence.

[@jakobi4971]

I love the video, and would love to hear more about culture and politics. I think you should still spend the majority of your time on theology, but it would be nice to hear your perspective on other issues. P.S. where is the best place to send you particular questions about theology?

[@DrJordanBCooper]

I can't always answer every email, but [e-mail]

[@jakobi4971]

@@DrJordanBCooper gotcha, I sent an email a while back but I imagine you missed it. In that situation I suppose I ought to send it again. Thank you so much for your videos, you and Lutheran Satire helped me to make the final jump from Baptistic thought to Lutheranism without plunging into Rome

[@alexanderhibbs4012]

A Modern Gentleman’s Guide to Etiquette by Jordan Cooper???

[@Mr.Truxton]

I still refuse to put a suit to church. I go to church in my regular clothes. And always will, unless it's a wedding or something like that. I think the way you act is more important than the way you dress. So that sort of etiquette I agree with.

[@aaronwinter1105]

As someone with autism, I think I would enjoy social gatherings much more if there were a set of agreed customs and behavious that I could be sure everyone was following.

[@BirdDogey1]

I doubt this is anything new, but I see people who do unto others acts below their station.

[@vasilias2230]

Love this, something every Christian should get behind.

[@Arman-ir1nm]

With all due respect, I assume neither you nor your parents have ever lived under communism. All those slogans ("having to choose from various sources gives you anxiety", "authentic self doesn't matter", "a good socialist behaves a certain way") may sound like some Eastern Bloc propaganda, although I believe that wasn't your intention at all. Many immigrants from the East, including the religious ones, cherish their newfound ability to be who they are, to express themselves in a certain way and to freely choose what they want to eat or to wear. I would argue this is precisely why this American experiment is so significant. America rebelled against the old world and then saw a lot of old well-mannered orderly societies devolve into authoritarianism. And one should deeply think about why this country, built by people considered unruly unmannered weirdos and lunatics in Europe, including Lutherans, is leading the world in so many ways, and those societies aren't. You may add restraints to your life according to your beliefs, authentic choice might become a dead end, I fully agree with you here. But this decision should come from the place of your authentic choice, nonetheless. I do think that.

[@Arman-ir1nm]

P. S. This is not a criticism per se. I get where you're coming from. I just felt I needed to add an additional perspective.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

I understand. Both the conflation of personal identity with group identity (as in Marxism) and the total divorce of personal identity from society and relationships (expressive individualism) are issues that the modern world faces, and neither have good results.

[@alephmale3171]

The algorithm must truly own my soul. What are the chances that I’m in an etiquette rabbit hole and you’re making a video, somewhat uncharacteristically on that?

[@mattosamanandesu]

Reminds me a lot of Japanese culture.

[@Cuyt24]

I support the president of El Salvador.

[@david_porthouse]

The Protestant Church teaches if that they want to hold a Masonic meeting behind closed doors in Canterbury Cathedral, then there is no need to consult one David Porthouse. Why do you insult our intelligence by talking about etiquette?

[@david_porthouse]

@Phlebas Good for you. Other Protestant denominations have other ideas.

[@rockycomet4587]

@@david_porthouse LOL, I don't think any of us are responsible for what EVERY Protestants denomination does.

[@david_porthouse]

@@rockycomet4587 They claim to be the Reformed Church, but they turn out to be just a rabble with lots of new faults which prevent them from uniting among themselves. It's difficult to take Protestants seriously. Dr Cooper evidently thinks that I should make the effort to read a long book by Martin Chemnitz. Why bother?

[@rockycomet4587]

@@david_porthouse Maybe if you did, you would learn something, and shed a little of that ignorance of yours.

[@david_porthouse]

@@rockycomet4587 Er well, what if every Protestant denomination has a long book I should read, and they are all clamouring for attention?