Why not send the ring to Valinor?

[@infidel1993]

"The closer we are to danger, the further we'll be from harm. It's the last thing he'll expect."

[@DuplexWeevil337]

Peak Hobbit moment:

[@luckisadumpstat2578]

Honestly out of all lines and moments in the movies that's the one I remember the most clearly. I love it and took it to heart. Been awhile since I read the books so idr if that line is even there.

[@FruitMonger360]

Hmm. That doesn't make sense to me. But then, you are very small. Perhaps you're right.

[@realkarfixer8208]

I'm pretty sure that's a movie line, not a Tolkien line. But it's a good one, anyway.

[@havefuntazarasu5367]

I always think that elrond is wiser than allah

[@KurtShaw-v4w]

"You can't sum up the Silmarillion in one sentence." Robert: "The whole sorry business of Feanor and his sons."

[@Nevyn515]

The Lord of the Rings trilogy can be summed up in the one sentence too: “5 guys go for a walk.”

[@DraconimLt]

@@Nevyn515 5? The Istari?

[@v1e1r1g1e1]

@@Nevyn515 9

[@pedrovargas2181]

Not really. Númenor has little to do with Fëanor and his boys, and only marginally with his grandboy.

[@KurtShaw-v4w]

@pedrovargas2181 While your statement is accurate, Pedro my pompous pal, I feel compelled to point out that the original comment was something known as 'an attempt at humour', more commonly referred to as a 'joke', and that you shouldn't take it nearly as seriously. ✌🏻

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

It's really cool how Tolkien explores the various options of what to do with the ring through the council of Elrond. That is the mark of a great author

[@OctagonalSquare]

And I’m glad that it wasn’t in the movie. As much as I’d like to see it, them discussing for hours about the various bad ideas would have gotten old

[@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr]

yes i love that too, all of the questions of "why didnt they just" he already thought of, and explained why they wouldn't work

[@MorningNapalm]

Yes, every great author should explore options through the council of Elrond.

[@ShortMan_123]

He was pre-empting annoying future KZbin commenters haha (not you, obvs :D)

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

@@ShortMan_123 😂😂😂

[@rofald]

2:52 My thought on Elrond saying that "they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it" didn't necessarily mean that the Ring would be refused entry into Valinor, but that it might have been physically impossible for it to be brought there. When Eru changed the shape of the world toward the end of the Second Age and established the Straight Way, it seems to me that the intention was to make Valinor inaccessible not only to humans, but also to the corrupting influence of Arda Marred and so give the elves a place where they could live free of the corruption that caused them to fade in Middle-Earth. To that end I think any ship carrying an artifact as evil as the Ring would simply not be able to traverse the Straight Way and would just continue on the Bent Seas until it reached the new mortal lands raised in the West of Middle-Earth after the Second Age.

[@12classics39]

Totally agree!

[@GaryM67-71]

Doesn't it depend on the ring-bearer though?

[@Feuerbach1]

Im not sure if I'd say Valinor, even being removed from the ring of the world is therefore free of Morgoth's ring...

[@Hypogean7]

@@Feuerbach1 But the Ring would still exist, and then, so would Sauron.

[@Feuerbach1]

@@Hypogean7 Morgoth's ring is Arda itself and will exist until Dagor Dargoroth

[@mvsh]

I'm so early Valinor still can be accessed by a regular ship!

[@Big_Tex]

And the world is still flat, so you can see Valinor if you stand on a beer can.

[@sw-gs]

@@Big_Tex Remember Dwarf =/= beer can, even though they look like one.

[@mayalackman7581]

Good one.

[@azataylor1]

You better keep numenor in sight

[@theradgegadgie6352]

​@Big_Tex Except according to Tolkien it was always round.

[@jamesgravil9162]

"They really did cover a lot of ground at that meeting [the Council of Elrond]" So much so that the chapter is 15,000 words and would probably be an hour long if adapted accurately for the screen.

[@vexile1239]

Ain't that the truth

[@bsmith3506]

Shhh don't give them ideas. They're already scraping the bottom if the barrel for LOTR films 🤣

[@moritamikamikara3879]

@@bsmith3506 Nononono I want a 1 hour long council of Elrond! I'm very happy with that!

[@Yonkage-ik5qb]

@@moritamikamikara3879 Recut the movies with all the content removed from the books. Probably ten extra hours, mostly of very slow scenes and also the REAL Tom Bombadil.

[@baron2062]

@@Yonkage-ik5qb Release the Brown Lands cut.

[@SuperCory1973]

I take a less paternalistic view of the Valar stepping back and a more practical one. When the Valar intervene, it's usually catastrophic. The War of Wrath is just the last of a series of battles that caused absolute devastation. So, I think the switch to using the Istari is an example of the Valar deciding to use "soft power" as opposed to direct power. Better to influence events than to become directly involved and cause mass suffering. One of the interesting things about the Valar is, they make lots of mistakes and, in many ways, are child-like in how they make decisions. They don't understand the Children of Eru well at all, they don't understand the fears and desires that motivate the Elves and Men, and have to learn through trial and error. Manwe fundamentally misunderstands Melkor, can't conceive of his evil. Tossing Melkor into the Void was arguably cruel and unusual punishment that probably only made Melkor more evil and perhaps broke his mind. Freeing him afterward and allowing him to run about unsupervised is the definition of mindboggling. Calling the Elves to Valinor in the first place was likely a terrible mistake. Creating Numenor, not having a presence there, and then setting an arbitrary restriction on where Men could sail was a questionable series of decisions. Take all that into account and I think the Valar perhaps came to understand that they were not well suited to being good stewards of the world and they needed a different approach. Because they lack the fundamental good-judgement to understand the world. Perhaps because they're just so different from other beings. The Maiar, by contrast, seem to be more flexible, adaptable and able to learn than the Valar are. This probably gets at something in the core of what Iluvatar created these two sets of beings as. The Valar, in many ways, are hopelessly distant and alien, which maybe gave them the ability to physically create the world, but left them unsuited to govern it. While the Maiar are able to, and sometimes do, live in the world as something almost indistinguishable from an Elf or a human being. They're able to understand and move between the divine world and the physical world in a way that most of the Valar, other than perhaps Melkor and Ulmo, are simply not able to do.

[@jhtrq1465]

Melkor wasn't tossed into the Void as its first punishement, he was chained in the Halls of Mandos. The Void banishement was the last and definitive sentence after the war of wrath.

[@rmsgrey]

The big difference between Valar and Maiar is one of scale, not of kind. Maiar are more able to interact with the Children of Iluvatar because they don't have to work so hard at not accidentally vaporising entire cities, but there's nothing to indicate a sharp division between Valar and Maiar - there's a range from the most powerful Valar (Manwe, Ulmo, Tulkas - though Melko was more powerful than any) to the least of the Maiar, but the greatest of the Maiar were comparable to the least of the Valar. We don't really know enough about the Ainur to generalise - we can point to specific examples who successfully passed for something like humans, if eccentric ones - at least as successfully as Tom Bombadil did - but the stories are about and by Elves, and later Hobbits, with the Ainur appearing mostly as incidental supporting roles.

[@SuperCory1973]

Ah! Good point. I had misunderstood that. @@jhtrq1465

[@Pfhorrest]

I'd like to hear some alternate history idea where the Valar didn't make all of those mistakes but instead handled each canonical misstep in a better way. This reminds me very much of some comments I've made on Robert's earlier videos about the nature of Melkor, and how to me the best theodicy for Middle Earth, though Tolkien himself as a Catholic would of course never approve of it, is that God qua Illuvatar is not perfect, yet, and so neither is his creation, and the whole history of Arda from the First Music on to the Second after Dagor Dagorath is a process of him "doing Shadow Work" in the Jungian sense, integrating the conflicting parts of himself together into a better and altogether more functional person. And that Shadow of Illuvatar was, of course, none other than Melkor himself. It's said in the Ainundale that all of the Ainur are projections of various facets of Illuvatar himself, and my take is that Melkor is a projection of Illuvatar's "auteur" characteristics, the drive to create and especially to exercise creative control. The first sin Tolkien ever mentions Melkor ever committing, before even the First Music, was Melkor venturing out into the Void, feeling sad at its emptiness, and then seeking out the Flame Imperishable to go create within the Void, which Illuvatar would not stand for because NOBODY else gets to use the Flame. Then during the First Music, Melkor's crime is basically showboating, trying to steal the spotlight and be the star. But that "none other before me" is a characteristic of Illuvatar himself, and I think that Melkor is just a projection of that into another being, who of course was then guaranteed to clash with the original who shares those characteristics. It's said that after Dagor Dagorath, not only Ainur but Elves and Men will also join in the Second Music, and the Flame Imperishable will be shared with all to recreate a new Arda Healed, which sounds to me very much like Illuvatar finally correcting his own original sin of having to be the sole auteur of his creation and not share creative control with anyone. I've suggested in those earlier comments that had Illuvatar been a perfect god already at the start, he would have just let Melkor take the Flame into the Void and create the world there, and then sent the other Ainur in after him to assist in "Melkor's" project, improving on its imperfections, collaborating together but letting him take point and set direction, and then all work together to realize his vision in the best way possible, that whole process just being the realization and perfection of Illuvatar's own vision, since they are all projections of himself, Melkor included. I feel like you could take that starting point and your critique of the Valar's actions in turn and sketch out what that better timeline would look like if instead of fighting then running and hiding from Melkor as they do, the Valar and below them the Maiar, and then later Elves and Men too, all worked within "Melkor's" world to make it, and him, and Illuvatar himself of which they are all parts, better.

[@SuperCory1973]

That's the traditional view, but reading the work it seems to me that there are differences in how the Maiar and Valar interact with the world that point to important differences between them. I don't know of an example of the Valar accidentally vaporizing a city, however. They seem to interact with Elves and Men without harming them several times in the Simarillion. Orome, for instance, discovers the Elves and isn't said to have accidentally harmed them. @@rmsgrey

[@daniharling3632]

"The whole sorry business of Feanor" is hilarious

[@Yamaazaka]

Me: *brings the one ring to valinor* Manwé: "bruh"

[@Chociewitka]

Aule: Give me that thing. Interesting. I will make some scientifical experiments with it before I destroy it... (Aule would not have been affected by the work of one of his pupils)

[@hangebza6625]

​@@Chociewitka I now imagine Aule going on for a tantrum how shoddy this thing was made and how much Sauron neglected his skills over the millenia.

[@yinyangthang]

😂

[@yochaiwyss3843]

​@@hangebza6625"the curvature is .2 degrees off. I swear to Eru my dwarves could have done something better"

[@Alpostpone]

@@yochaiwyss3843 "Compared to Feanor, this guy is a n00b."

[@BwillsAlwight]

How nice of them to let us deal with it ourselved. It's not like Sauron was one of their maiar or anything :3

[@countryman032]

They sent the Istari which did the trick thanks to Gandalf.

[@sarwatarannya8786]

​@@countryman032 the istari literally failed and eru himself had to intervene to send gandalf back. The valar are a bunch of pansies

[@countryman032]

@@sarwatarannya8786 If anything, Eru sending Gandalf back was an endorsement of the Valar's plan of using the Istari to deal with Sauron. The Istari did not fail. Gandalf, an Istari, succeeded in his mission.

[@sarwatarannya8786]

@@countryman032 The plan of the valar failed. If your plan needs literal divine intervention to work, its not a good plan lol.

[@Hypogean7]

@@sarwatarannya8786 The Valar are also divine. So are the Istari.

[@BrooklynRedLeg]

It still required the subtle intervention of Eru, though that final curse Frodo leveled on Gollum REALLY did the trick.

[@pumellhorne]

Not always that subtle. Everyone turning up at the council of Elrond at the same time despite no one being invited and no one organising it was a dead giveaway 😂

[@istari0]

The curse worked so well because Gollum had broken the oath he swore to Frodo back in the Emyn Muil.

[@dr.kinderman5290]

Wait, what curse?

[@DragonoidBerserker1]

@@dr.kinderman5290 "Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

[@Dadecorban]

Not so subtle....Gandalf had to be reincarnated as a more power version of himself. It was always outside our capacity to complete this task, or so close to the knife as to make no matter. The plot happened because Eru wanted it to happen that way, so the Valar did it that way, so the people of Middle Earth did it that way, because Tolkien wanted to it to happen that way. All this talk about "this was our task and the Valar are now exercising a laseiz faire foreign policy is just short of the mark"

[@EbonMagician34]

I would be curious to explore more about what the nature of Morgoth’s banishment really is. What exactly is he doing out there, beyond the Walls of Night? Is he communing with the dark things living out there? Is he building power and biding his time? Is he just struggling to even get back to Arda in the first place? Is his banishment also flight from the Valar? I feel like this topic could be quite fun to dig into. Good topic this time, as well, of course. I always appreciate your work!

[@methamphetamineaddict5217]

I believe when the valar banished him, they "hewd" his legs and bound him in chains in permanent captivity. Pretty much made him a cripple then put him in a straightjacket

[@clobberelladoesntreadcomme9920]

@@methamphetamineaddict5217 It's a metaphor for him being trapped in an eternal, changeless, non-corporeal dimension. He's in Hell basically.

[@marvalice3455]

There's no power to build out there, it's just nothing you

[@moritamikamikara3879]

@@methamphetamineaddict5217 Hewed means chopped

[@lukasmeier9245]

I mean Sauron was actually kinda right when saying that the Valar had abandoned Middle-earth, as they would have left both Humans and Dwarfes to Melkor.

[@akiramasashi9317]

That's the genius of Sauron. He doesn't so much lie as tell half-truths with carefully hidden details or missing critical context to get his way.

[@ow124-k3z]

​@@akiramasashi9317lmao Sauron is like a modern politician

[@akiramasashi9317]

@@ow124-k3z I bet Tolkien and the Unabomber would've gotten along famously.

[@holysecret2]

@@akiramasashi9317 Maybe! Until he started harming innocents, that is.

[@Alejojojo6]

@@akiramasashi9317 He is the lord of Lies and the Deceiver for a reason haha

[@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr]

I wish you would just put the artist credits on screen with each piece so they can be looked up. i really liked some so i had to take a screenshot and reverse image search it and then find the right link. the artists deserve to be known.

[@AztecCroc]

There are credits at the end.

[@johnathanrichardson]

@@AztecCroc i think what he means is give credit to the artist while the image is on the screen, as opposed to everyone at the end. say i wanted to look up the artist who made the image at 4:24 how do i know which of the many artists listed at the end created that image? putting the credits in the corner of the screen would make it very easy to find the artist

[@nickcunningham6344]

I mean he does include them at the end. Maybe not as convenient as including them with the images, but the information is there and accessible.

[@patrickmitchell9068]

Valinor: Hey I know this our fault but like, can you solve it on your own

[@computernoise2209]

Boomer Valar vs. Millennial Humanity

[@plebisMaximus]

Their fault that their kind is causing trouble in middle-earth, but that's just soooo not their problem lmao. There's feasting to do and rotting fruit to throw at Feanor's spirit in the Halls of Mandos.

[@randomd286]

It is literally Valinor's fault he is a maiar who, after the fall of melkor, was confronted in middle earth, instead of being captured or anything was just advised to come back for punishment and then they just did nothing lol. It is even stated that it would be impossible for any mortal man to destroy the ring. Gollum slipping with it in his hand into the volcano was literally the only way they could have accomplished its destruction. The majority of the help they did send turned to evil and made things worse.🤣

[@forsakenquery]

Exactly

[@pumellhorne]

​@@randomd286I think there's a bit in the Silmarillion where the Valar realise that every time they help out they reshape Middle-Earth, sinking lands, raising mountains, etc, bc they're so powerful. They decided to trust in the plan Eru Iluvatar came up with and let things play out. A lot of things needed to happen to get Gollum where he had to be to destroy the ring and Gandalf didn't believe it was by chance

[@Master_Bachelor]

As a manager, I can completely relate to the Valar's desire to distance themselves from the day-to-day, especially after the gruelling micromanagement at the initial stages of the project.

[@captainweekend5276]

The line about the Nazgul's steeds basically seems to suggest that if they did try to take the one ring to Valinor that the Nazgul would give chase upon their fell beasts, and would likely seize the ring at sea before it could be delivered.

[@bbgun061]

Possibly. Sauron also controlled the Corsairs of Umbar, whose fleets were raiding the coasts of Gondor. They might have been watching the Grey Havens, and would no doubt attack any ship sailing from there with the Ring.

[@dragonkingofthestars]

Insert WW2 carrier warfare here.

[@iraz82]

Please don’t give Amazon any ideas. We know how they respect the lore. 🥴

[@Chupacabraification]

Didn't Legolas shoot down one of those with a single arrow?

[@melissablackwood]

@@Chupacabraification Still only counts as one.

[@superslayerguy]

In Deep Geek been on a streak with bangers lately, thank you so much Robert

[@LENZ5369]

Sauron (and Morgoth) was neither man or elf, they were Maia and Valar . Expecting humans and elves to clean up Valinor's mess is ridiculous.

[@brodok4252]

Yeah, but the s**t rolls downhill, as they say.

[@lyh3815]

well it would appear that it was Eru`s plan, he himself said that there isn`t anything in the universe not his by design, so in a sense, melkor was supposed to be ~bad~

[@lorbbrol9976]

yeh, and they did it. With hobbits and a small DnD party. All the better tale for it.

[@Slechy_Lesh]

It's trickle-down economics

[@katiikN]

The Valar are the true villains of Tolkien's stories and no one will convince me otherwise

[@ZeroKitsune]

I also get the sense that Eru was helping the people of Middle Earth more than anyone realized, and that the test was always meant to be about resisting temptation and not physical might. I have no evidence for it, but it seems fitting to me that Eru had always planned to help them destroy the ring, IF they could stay determined to actually do it and not use it for themselves.

[@Madame702]

Just remember during the Second age the Last Alliance of Elves and Men defeated Sauron with his Ring of Power in his own territory. So it wasn't like Valar really need to come and help the Elves and Men like they did in War of Wrath during the First Age.

[@MaaZeus]

​​@@Madame702 That was still in a time when elves were truly a force to be reckoned with AND humanity was still at its golden age, mostly united and strong. But during the age of LOTR the elves were mostly gone and, as Elrond said, humans were weak, scattered and leaderless. Even dwarves had issues of their own. This was in many ways the low point of all races of the middle earth. But yes, I agree with Kitsune. As long as there was one willing to do the right thing, resist the temptation and take the ring away somewhere to be destroyed then he would subtly guide their path so that it can be eventually done no matter how hard and hopeless the road may seem. This is pretty much what Gandalf was hinting at too when he told Frodo that he was meant to get the ring. Frodos journey should have been impossible, 0.00000000something chance of succeeding. But succeed it did because Eru was in the background, nudging and poking to keep the ball rolling.

[@Madame702]

@@MaaZeus No you have it backwards. The Elves are in their golden age during the 1st age. Humans are just starting out. The human golden age is in 4th age when all the Elves leave Middle Earth and settle in Aman.

[@MaaZeus]

@@Madame702 Yeah I formed the sentence wrong. But the point is the same, Elves kicked ass and humanity was strong too, all allied under strong leadership back then. All 3 major races were shadows of their former selves during the LOTR. Elves were leaving in troves, humans were divided and dwarfs rooted deeply into their holes minding their own business. A direct war with Mordor was no longer an option and if it weren't for the success of Frodo and Sam, Mordor would have steamrolled over west.

[@Madame702]

@@MaaZeus You have to be careful during the First Age it is mostly Elves that fighting not just any Elves it high Elves or Noldorin Elves under King Feanor. But after the "War of Wrath" and the destruction of Beleriand most of the Noldorin Elves where either killed or returned to the Blessed Lands.

[@hunttari]

Considering what carnage Fëanor and the silmarils caused earlier, i don't think the valar wanted another "catalyst" to tempt some elves or a maia into doing something similar.

[@mairepres]

The Valar must have been quite fed up with mighty jewels

[@plebisMaximus]

The carnage caused by them refusing to let him go fetch his gems or the carnage caused by them refusing to ever help the elven host that rode to war against their kindred?

[@randomd286]

@@plebisMaximus No the carnage: of them not wanting to deal with man/ give them guidance. So when tricked by Sauron to sail towards their island out of ignorance, absolutely no threat to them, they delete their civilization from existence. The only one to survive being the one who tricked them into it.

[@FH-cn3mg]

​​​@@randomd286 The Valar did not delete humanity. The Silmarillion makes it quite clear that Manwe gave up his governance of Arda and asked Eru Illuvatar to take control. Eru topples the mountains and sent Numenor into oblivion. The Valar did not do anything. Also, Eru nor Manwe, nor any of them killed Earendil when he showed up and asked the Valar to intervene in Beleriand. They did take up their armies and defeated Morgoth in the end. Blaming the Valar for the Elves' stupidity and evil is not the way.

[@randomd286]

@@FH-cn3mg Yes my comment, concerning the fall of numenor, was pointed at the illogical actions of Eru. Though the valar could have addressed the whole situation very easily. They sent one of the valar and separated part of a continent to use as an elven taxi. It seems like they were more than capable of directly communicating/ stopping sauron from manipulating them into worship of melkor. Maybe a "come to Jesus" moment would have been appropriate. Eru wiping out all the innocent men, women and children (regardless of if they even knew what the king was going to do) but not taking care of Sauron is a mystery. The only conclusion you can really draw is that Sauron was still needed to drive the story forward. All those of the race of men who suffered for centuries under the dark lord, who they were incapable of beating prior to the coming of the chosen one, could have been saved if not for the sake of the story (i'm referring to in universe).

[@mrs.c1755]

Thank you so much! Your answer was far more in depth than I thought possible, and I loved it! I would say that it might only be cruel of the Valar to leave it to humans if they also removed all help. Since the eagles, Gandalf, etc., remained to aid the peoples of middle earth until the evil beyond their capabilities to counter were removed, it was, as you said, their time to sort of finish growing up. Lovely, lovely video!

[@bjarkefromsejer394]

Much appreciated, Robert.. I do enjoy how much you listen to your community.. ❤ Good health, and keep up the good work..💪

[@Salted_Fysh]

The Valar: issues of middle earth should be taken care of by those of middle earth. The responsibility for their own fate is our gift to them. Also the Valar: hey, remember that Sauron guy we failed to take responsibility for and let run around freely, bringing untold suffering for thousands of years?

[@plebisMaximus]

It's fine, they sent Saruman to take care of it. I'm sure he'll remain loyal and true to his mission.

[@thewoofalo631]

Oh no people are making the same mistake they make in real life also in Tolkiens work.

[@gaynzz6841]

sounds like christianity

[@FanOfDaUnderAppreciated]

Simple thoughts from a simple mind.

[@RedFloyd469]

@@thewoofalo631 There are "mistakes" and then there are "catastrophical blunders of the greatest kind". The valar's lack of any proper intervention on their behalf is the latter kind. At least in the real world, post-colonial relationships between historical colonizer and historical colonized happen on a basis of both pragmatism and idealism. The colonies were too unwieldy to keep in check, and popular opinion back in the centre of colonial power (meaning, the capitalist, democratic west) was shifting fully to decolonization for the sake of freedom and self-governance. Leaving the colonies to fend for themselves was ultimately more beneficial to the western epicentre of power than it was damaging. The colonies in turn have sovereign rule. The problem is that the absolute vast majority of post-colonial ex-colonies are run by dictators, warlords, pirates, slavers, and corrupt politicians serving the former. Their economies are in shambles, their police ineffective or non-existant, their infrastructure beyond repair and their social situation exploitative. But hey, at least those colonists are gone, right? In Tolkien's world, the Valar do not have any of these downsides. They are literal gods, or at least extra-ordinarily powerful demi-gods. They have infinite wealth and infinite resources, or at least so vast it borders the infinite and absolutely dwarfs the resources of men and those remaining on middle earth. Also, the very fact you call the valar "like people in real life" is already telling of your fallacious rhetoric. The analogy doesn't work, because the valar are NOT normal humans. Humans have to deal with shit like poverty, war, famines, exploitation, the valar don't. They are insurmountably more powerful and well off than anybody else. The comparison makes absolutely no sense. No I'm afraid it's quite simple: Valinor really was a poorly thought up concept by Tolkien. Detailed and vastly documented, yes, and of course eloquently written, but poorly thought up regardless. This here is Tolkien breaking his own rules a little. Valinor leaving middle earth to deal with their problems is essentially the same thing that Tolkien's religious upbringing would have taught him about the relationship between heaven and earth. God creating all the problems and then blaming humans for it, telling them to shove it and deal with his stupid decisions all by themselves. For a christian, god can't be "stupid", "petty" or "malevolent", despite clear biblical evidence to the contrary, so they make up the idea that God left human beings to their own devices out of a sense of "freedom". I'm afraid "freedom" in a world that is ruled by a pre-deterministic all-powerful deity that randomly chooses to intervene via miracles is already an internal contradiction. As Tolkien can't help but put his theistic contradictions in his own work, you get stuff like eru illuvatar being a dickhead for no reason, and the valar being weirdly non-interventionist for also no reason. The "pragmatic" arguments given by so many people in the comments section here also make no sense in the slightest. The reason why the valar did so much damage in the past is because we are talking about literal gods clashing. That is not the same as several gods clashing against a singular, severely weakened ex-maiar who also only ever sits in his tower and lets creatures like orcs and trolls do the fighting for him. The valar wouldn't need to do much fighting or destroying, they'd just have to slightly step on one of sauron's armies and pluck his tower out of the ground. Their in-action in taking Sauron prisoner when they had the perfect opportunity to do so earlier also speaks volumes of Tolkien's forced non-interventionist attitude given to the valar plainly contradicting the text. The valar and eru illuvatar plainly intervene plenty of times except for those times when it wouldn't be good for the plot. They could have treated sauron the way they treated morgoth. They chose not to, for the sake of the story tolkien already was planning and for the crappy christian "human freedom" analogy. Lord of the rings is a fantastic story, and a good deal of the silmarillion is excellent world-building. But the more I get to know of the Valar and Valinor, the more holes I see popping up. It's best to just consider them arrogant dickheads who don't care one way or the other about middle earth, treating it's denizens basically like ants in an ant-hill.

[@rocketraccoon1976]

Just put Glorfindel on a Great Eagle and fly at high altitude all the way to Valinor. Then give it to Tulkas, who can tell Sauron through some sort of vision or dream, "Yo, you want your ring? Come and get it."

[@willowarkan2263]

through the ring into the sun, The maiar that pulls it around still comes down every day, she might be hot enough to melt it.

[@pumellhorne]

Do you want a giant eagle Dark Lord? Because that's how you get a giant eagle Dark Lord

[@EarthsGeomancer]

Wasn't Voldemort from Valinor? It would have been a bad idea to send it there.

[@jondonnelly3]

I for one welcome our dark eagle lords. ​@@pumellhorne

[@billebrooks]

@@pumellhorne If Gandalf and Galadriel cannot be trusted with the One Ring, then neither can Glorfindel.

[@Otterdisappointment]

TL;DR the Ring is evil and you can’t just dump your problems on Heaven. Tolkien was Catholic just roll with it.

[@fkwithfriezaday]

Fair lmao

[@adambeers3702]

It would be cool to see a video about how Tolkien made virtually everything talk. Dragons, animals, trees, orcs. It would be interesting to hear your perspective Robert!

[@lrobertiii]

Wow! Thanks for answering my question on your last video "Why not throw the Ring into the sea?". Thank you and brillant video Robert.

[@LibertarianLeninistRants]

lol, I asked the exact same question back then. funny how two minds can work the same way

[@itap8880]

Why do I sense something... artificial?

[@lrobertiii]

@@itap8880 Sorry? Artifical?

[@lrobertiii]

@itap8880 Sorry if my English isn't great. English is not my first language.

[@itap8880]

@@lrobertiii idk, the comment sounded a bit sus to me

[@AZSgamepro]

I’d love a video going in depth on the council of Elrond, who was there, what was said, why did they make the decisions they made

[@HuntingTarg]

Maybe you should read the first book - it's 'source material'; "everything you seek may be found there."

[@Jagonath]

@@HuntingTarg Well, quite. But you could say that about any video on LOTR.

[@datadavis]

@@Jagonath its shit

[@LHSNottingham]

Eru and the Valar are the kinds of friends that make you prefer your enemies. The Valar left Sauron behind after the war of wrath because ??? and then when he (completely predictably) corrupted the Numenoreans the Valar were like "we tried sending some clouds that looked like eagles but now we're out of ideas". So big daddy Eru steps in and naturally solves the problem by killing his own deceived "children" while leaving Sauron alive with a debuff so he couldn't shape shift. Thanks, "dad"

[@aWILDsomethingCAME]

If i hold a gun to your head and tell you to love me, is that true love? The valar are not going to force someone into choosing good, otherwise whats the point?

[@LHSNottingham]

​@@aWILDsomethingCAME ...where did I say anything like the Valar should force elves/men to love them? I'm talking about the Valar and Eru allowing their peers/offspring to run completely amok in middle earth. the valar literally let sauron walk away after the war of wrath, that's on them. Eru killed those that Sauron deceived, as well as the faithful who remained on the island, while letting Sauron walk away with a loss of one skill.

[@Alex626_]

@@LHSNottingham Instead of just killing the Sauron. Yes, Eru had a screwed logic. What do you expect, he's a Tolkien's version of the evil jewish god named Yahweh.

[@LHSNottingham]

@@Alex626_ ... which was the whole point of my initial comment. With friends like Eru/the Valar/the Christian god - who needs enemies.

[@891Henry]

You sound like a Sauron apologist.

[@syriuszb8611]

"it's like parents letting the children deal with own problems" except that the problem was drunken uncle with grabby hands.

[@pickcomb332]

Except they had already beat the old drunk before, twice, so they just had to make sure he never got ahold of his ultimate weapon.

[@demiserofd]

They gave us the chance to be done with him last time, and we decided we wanted the ring instead. It's like if you had the proof to take said uncle down but you decided to blackmail him into buying you stuff, instead. After that, it's your responsibility to deal with.

[@hectorhernandezaleman3836]

Except the dad already beat your uncle 2 times and the kid is now 40 years old, so your dad expects you to beat his lights out yourself this time.

[@hectorhernandezaleman3836]

​@jamescheddar4896It really isn't, what's the lesson then? "Remember guys, be ever dependent on othes and higher powers to solve your problems, don't you dare learn to deal with your problems" Even outside of the religious aspects of the topic, it's one detrimental attitude have. Their "God is testing us" is what would translate for us non believers into "Get your sh*t together, nobody else is doing it for you". Of course help is needed at times, but that saying doesn't mean that you have to do it all yourself, but that you shouldn't expect to be eternally carried by the hand, much less expect for everything to magically solve itself and realize how bad those things are for you in the long run.

[@eduardojacichen893]

@@hectorhernandezaleman3836 Except that your parents and your uncle are super human, and even if you're 40 you would never reach their strength. So maybe it's better to teach a lesson to your kids when their lifes aren't on the line? And with something that you couldn't have prevented in the first place. Meanwhile, send your drunken brother to jail where he belongs and don't let you children try to kill him with a spoon. Let them learn their lesson with problems that are from middle earth, and not something that trickled down from your all powerfull eternal palace.

[@TheCorpsehatch]

Best Lord of the Rings lore channel on KZbin.

[@halikarnak1862]

Can I get a 'true'

[@thegamechanger7352]

@@halikarnak1862 true

[@robertthebarry]

I love your videos, I especially like the way you don't drag them out to 30 minutes! I think some KZbinrs feel they work for the BBC.

[@stealth_meister4939]

Your videos are great to listen to as I drive to school since it's 1.5 hours away. Love them!

[@ChromeDaimao]

The valar being like "nah, don't bring that shit here" shows just how sinister the creation of the one ring truly was. It's power was SO corrupting that they were concerned it might even corrupt gods, and then you really have fucking problem on your hands.

[@-El.Inexperto]

well not only because that.. the Silmarils, this jewels that dont have any corrupting power still did a lot of harm becasue of them

[@cmjcj2ktn]

Yeah i figured this was the short answer to the question, it would corrupt even Valinor.

[@Intentionallydi]

Melkor 2

[@atomskthepirateking2776]

The Valar would not be affected by Sauron or the Ring. The simple answer was it was up to Man to overcome him.

[@JPNixon-hu2jd]

Fantastic video - thank you. I have always, with greatest respect for the man himself, disagreed on the point of the Valar not taking the one ring. Going to Middle Earth and effecting change, I completely understand the Valar's reluctance. But not allowing back an entity, self mutilated as he was, like Sauron or his ring sounds retconned (which again I would understand to make a great story work). Sauron was not of Middle Earth, so unless the plan from the beginning was to let Sauron or humanity have Middle Earth, disallowing the peoples of Middle Earth to return Sauron (and/or the ring which is fundamentally a part of Sauron) seems less a coming of age for mankind and more of a failure to acknowledge the last remnant of a mess they failed to fully clean up. In any event, the story is fantastic, so little argument beyond this comment. Again, thank you for the video. Great work as always!

[@jaelwyn]

In fairness, that pretty much puts them in line with almost every human parent in history...

[@HuntingTarg]

The Valar are an indistinct part of the _LOTR_ epic proper; they are as distant and out-of-focus as the Misty Mountains would be from Rivendell. And Sauron, being formerly one of them, was no more fit for their company or their charge than his ring was; for his ring held within it everything that made Sauron abhorrent to them to begin with. So naturally they could not simply 'take him back' for Middle Earth's sake. And neither could they fell him by their own hands, or they would become as he was, ruled by might and power, not by virtue. I would guess that their aim was for him to meet his own end in Middle Earth, keeping both their hands and their wills untainted by his corruption. If Sauron was ended by other Valar, then they became judges of their peers, and their whole exalted existence was in peril. However, if he met his own end in another land by the wills of lesser creatures, then his corruption would be evidently foolish and craven, and Valinor would remain the untainted home of the wise and the blessed.

[@komninosm]

@@HuntingTarg Sauron was Maia not Valar. They did punish their own. They crippled Morgoth and bound him in chains in the Halls of Mandos and then disposed him in the dark void.

[@GaryM67-71]

@@HuntingTarg Virtue doesn't stand back and let others do its dirty work fella, just cowards do that. Cowards who enjoy watching Reality TV shows in middle earth, obviously.

[@GravesRWFiA]

I could see the valar pulling back for man's issues, Sauron was a problem caused by the valar, they had failed to stop him, one of their own number, from running roughshod.

[@dandiehm8414]

The Valar were believers in freedom, Manwe Especially. Sauron was not a "Valr" problem. They were not in charge of ridding the world of evil. They could not do that. They left Sauron in Middle Earth, as well as at least one Balrog, lots and lots of Orcs, and they even left Dragons. They were not willing to change the earth to keep men safe, as the threat of larger destruction was greater.

[@Tim.Stotelmeyer]

My thoughts as well. Sauron was not from Middle Earth. He was a fallen Valar. The Valar should be cleaning up their own mess.

[@OceanHedgehog]

They'd also intervened to defeat Morgoth and imprison him. When the Host of the Valar arrived on Middle Earth, it waged a 40 year war against Morgoth that devastated the land, and the Valar did not want a repeat of that event. Sending the Istari to guide the Free Peoples to defend themselves was the less destructive route than directly facing Sauron as they had against Morgoth.

[@nexeye1]

​@@OceanHedgehog Yeah, but the istari were almost completely incompetant. If not for Gandalf, the whole concept would've failed and Sauron would've won.

[@MrMia1994]

"Sauron knew that Valinor was real, he was from there"... I had always assumed that Sauron had never been to Valinor, that he had broken with the Valar during the time of the Lamps, and was in Middle Earth during the time of the trees. That is there always more to learn!

[@anubisgod23]

All of the Mair are from valinor

[@MrMia1994]

@@anubisgod23 The Balrogs were in Valinor?

[@plebisMaximus]

They all stepped into Arda together and the point of entry was Valinor. Sauron was actually an apprentice under Aule for a while there, before going with Morgoth.

[@MrMia1994]

@@plebisMaximus I'm always happy to learn! My assumption was that Valinor became "Valinor" following the war of the lamps when the Valar moved west. Such a rich text.

[@Krisliet]

Apparently they partially lose their memories when they go to Middle Earth... It figures, since in the third age Middle Earth is basically another "realm" of existence to them.

[@windfiend]

A few topics for videos: - who and what is Goldberry - the story of Huan - a video about each Vala Thank you for your content

[@jacobpierce2548]

Would love a Goldberry Vid

[@TheAndersDanilet]

Huan is the goodest boy 🐶

[@maggs131]

I hope wherever we go when we die, Tolkien can see how his universe is still being loved and enjoyed. ❤

[@retsaMinnavoiG]

Unfortunately we just turn to dust.

[@I_am_nobody999]

@@retsaMinnavoiG Tolkein didn't think so. He was a faithful Catholic.

[@jeffcordova9633]

This is one of those questions I asked when I watched the series this past weekend for the 3rd time lol Thanks for the video Robert!!

[@michaelholmes2520]

Great video, as always. My question/suggestion for another video is: what is the cannon of Isildur getting the ring? My impression from reading the book long ago was that they beat Sauron in battle, struck him down, and then cut the ring from what they assumed was his corpse, or at least, him lying there defeated. The movie makes it seem like it was more of a lucky slice, and that cutting the ring from his hand was the *cause* of the victory that day, not the result. So what really happened?

[@akiramasashi9317]

In the books Elendil and Gil-Galad killed Sauron and Sauron killed them. Sauron *was* dead but would return shortly enough with the Ring. Isildur cutting it off then and there was what prevented Sauron from rising again almost immediately.

[@evergreengoddess13]

Love your videos as always. A couple ideas for topics to cover - who or what do we know about the elves that stayed in valinor when most of the noldor went back to middle earth. And - why wasn’t Sauron aware of Bilbo when he would put on the ring, but only Frodo? And why did the Valar call the elves west when they awoke? Why didn’t they have them awake in Valinor if that’s where they wanted them? Thanks again for the phenomenal content!!

[@scottclark5336]

Had just watched the throw the ring into the sea earlier this evening and had the same thought about valinor

[@NxNWhiskey]

Wow! This was the best explanation of why The Ring couldn't go West that I've ever heard. Finally makes sense to me! Thank you!

[@kripos2201]

Could you do a video on the history of Gundabad next perhaps? Please and thank you.

[@iraz82]

Fascinating analysis! Thank you so much for putting this excellent video together. Could you perhaps produce a video about whether or not the Valar might intervene at all in Middle East in the fourth age? For example, would Manwe still send his eagles if humanity found themselves in a difficult situation? Or would the Valar only intervene again in the battle at the end of days? Also, The Fourth Age is one where there is less magic in Middle Earth, but what about any possible remaining balrogs, dragons, Tom Bombadil, Radagast, or the Blue Wizards? How might their remaining presence be felt by humanity?

[@SinHurr]

Big "Send the homeless to another town" South Park energy.

[@allfields]

I check in on these videos every now and then. Glad to see you love to upload regularly.

[@madambutterfly1997]

It makes sense that the Valar would and could use the one ring and not be corrupted by it in ANY capacity.

[@vtmarik]

Could have kicked it through the door of night... and then Melkor would have gotten it... and ooooh that would've been bad. Yeah, destroyed was the best option.

[@borusa32]

If Melkor can be consumed by evil then other Valar conceivably could.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@borusa32 Sure, but it's pretty likely Aule could destroy the Ring if they were worried about that.

[@istari0]

@@borusa32 Melkor chose to be evil. If none of the other Valar fell prey to Melkor's influence, I see no reason why any of them would fall prey to the One Ring, which was much less powerful.

[@warrioremperor6320]

@@borusa32 that’s a mont and Bailey argument low iq reject lil bro the argument isn’t if they can fall into it

[@kirkhenry2652]

This was a really well thought out and considered video; I hadn't considered the thought processes (in this way) of the Valar but it does make sense. Great video!!

[@Jeff-cn9up]

Because Tolkien wanted to write a story about hobbits walking to Mordor.

[@Alpostpone]

And it took three thick books to do it, because one does not simply walk into Mordor.

[@craigoclock]

Yep. Divine intervention and magical solutions make the story feel cheaper and less heroic, so use them sparingly.

[@markpukey8]

@@Alpostpone OK, that might be the BEST doubling down on a joke I've ever seen! You sir, win win the internet for today!

[@warrioremperor6320]

@@craigoclock based on the great literary critic of a KZbin comment section you are low iq I’m superior

[@MusoStuu]

I am new to your channel. I find your videos exciting, provoking, calming, and relaxing, and of course, very nerdy, which I love! Thank you so much for making them; they are clearly well crafted and lovingly made. We, your community, appreciate what you do ❤

[@TheGRAclan]

I like the theory around the Valar wanting humanity to take charge of their world and genuinely believe thats what Tolkien intended however I see one massive flaw in this. Sauron is a Maiar...hes literally one of Erus fuckups. To go back to the parent analogy. Its like the parent burning the dinner and making the kids clean up and cook again from scratch.

[@shakeNbake91586]

Not mentioned in the video, but another important point about *why* the Valar had been 'stepping back' is that, well, every time they've gotten involved has brought massive destruction and in many ways only made things worse. The War of Wrath utterly, apocalyptically, destroyed the entire western region of Middle Earth. Their mere existence in the world and that of the Undying Lands was at least partly a cause of the corruption and downfall of Numenor, it served as a temptation and almost a taunt....immortality is real, it exists, you can see it from your homeland. I think the fact that they sent the wizards is admission on their part that Sauron is one of theirs, and it's at least partly their fault he still exists to cause all this misery for humankind, as they failed repeatedly to deal with him like they finally dealt with Morgoth at the end of the 1st Age. But they won't, and maybe can't, take direct action this time.

[@pawbard]

Please make a video on this question Robert? “ Why does Shelob fear the light of a silmaril when Ungoliant fed upon the light of the two trees?”

[@gregoryjean-baptiste8873]

This explanation mirror why Gandalf did not accompany the 4 hobbits back to the Shire after the destruction of the ring. Gandalf tell them that they will face chalenges but that he believe that they are more than up to the task. Indeed, they go back to find their hometown invaded by the people of Sharkey, which turn out to be Saruman accompany by an utterly corrupted Wormtongue. It's like a mini recreation of the Middle earth conflict with Saruman for Melkor and Wormtongue for Sauron, but hobbit sized. Even Saruman telling Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pipin that they were only tools that Gandalf discarded once he was done with them, can be seen as the Valar abandonning the people of middle earth to their own doom, while the Valar (Gandalf) were in fact confident enough in the children of Eru to let them solve the problem on their own. As a parent it is one of the most difficult thing to do. Forget the Tom Bombadil episode, the Scouring of the Shire is one of best part of the books (one of my favorite) and a shame that it was not included in the Peter Jackson movies save for a brief moment when peering into the mirror of Galadriel.

[@monsierlemaire8282]

Love these videos! Both the information and the production quality are first rate.

[@chriswilliamsCKG]

I had this thought earlier today. It's funny how these coincidences happen. I'm just at the point in the fellowship where Aragorn reveals his identity to Boromir in the council of Elrond. I've never gotten all the way through the books, so the book lore is very new.

[@plebisMaximus]

You've started on quite the ride. The books only keep getting better, you got a lot to look forward to.

[@HuntingTarg]

Finish the books before watching any more Tolkien or Middle Earth videos. You will be so much the richer for it.

[@cliffordholmes8789]

I love your videos and think they're amazing. Just wanted to make one point. As far as I am aware, Sauron had never the thought that they would want to destroy the ring. Due to his own mindset based on his own ambitions, he could only ever imagine the ring would be used as a weapon against him. The idea he would try to protect the seas to stop anyone taking to it to the Valar doesn't make sense. The council may well have thought it but Sauron wouldn't have seen this as a threat. This is why two hobbit's were able to do what they did. As always, it's an amazing video.

[@renferal5290]

Perfect timing. Your voice is so soothing to listen to. Now this is a very good video

[@GeoEstes]

I've been wondering if it's actually his voice or if he uses one of those artificial voices like so many other youtubers do.

[@expred]

@@GeoEstes Worries of the modern age, huh 😁 I do not think it is AI voice. I've been listening to his voice for a while and I don't see signs of it being AI, even though I've been involved and interested about AI stuff for some time too so not completely unfamiliar with that either. Just doesn't seem AI. But in the end doesn't matter, if his content is good and I find the voice soothing , I do not care if it is artificial or not. 😃

[@tonyhinrichs1869]

I LOVE your channel brother!! I’m subscribed to ALOT of Tolkien lore channels and the way you describe middle earth coupled with your fantastic accent ( I’m American 🇺🇸) is both awe inspiring and detailed!! Thank you!!

[@taWay21]

Why didn't Glorfindel help at the battle of Pelenor Fields, or the Siege of the Black Gate? Could you do a what if scenario where Maglor, who is said to still be roaming the shores singing sad songs by the War of the Ring, returns to help the heroes in their quest to destroy Sauron?

[@rmsgrey]

There were multiple assaults on Rivendell and Erebor that kept the northern forces of the Elves occupied while Sauron's main thrust was directed at Gondor.

[@JohnPeacekeeper]

@@rmsgrey This. Legolas even mentions this in both the book and the movie, that war is going on up North. And it was, in fact, vitally important that Erebor did not fall, because if they fell, then there was nothing stopping Sauron's Northern forces to come South and overwhelm Gondor There were several reasons Gandalf needed Erebor reclaimed. A big reason was to deny Sauron a dragon ally, but another was to ensure that Erebor's key position was held by allies of free peoples.

[@mage1439]

What you have to say here meshes so well with the incredible art you've found.

[@rofflestomp684]

Also, it was bound to Middle Earth and the very foundations of Barad-dûr. Could it even go the straight way to Valinor?

[@Nikolas_Davis]

Your analysis in this video expands and elaborates on the comment I made on the last one (why not cast the Ring into the sea?) I am glad that you emphasize the point of the peoples of Middle Earth taking responsibility for their affairs. I don't think it was a "cruel" policy on the part of the Valar; and if I had to guess, I'd say this last reason for not sending the Ring to Valinor was first and foremost in Tolkien's own mind. As a Catholic, he'd be very familiar with the idea that "humanity" (here in the broad sense of all sentient races) has to be educated and mature throughout the course of history, sometimes by tough lessons, until they come in the fullness of time to their full potential. The analogy of children being emancipated from their parents' care and sheltering is exactly right; the Valar had to step down, allowing the children of Illuvatar to become autonomous adults.

[@GaryM67-71]

anything in canon indicating the Valar then vanished completely, never to return?

[@Nikolas_Davis]

@@GaryM67-71 It depends on what you mean by "vanished completely"; there is definitely a pattern in the books of the Valar gradually withdrawing from Middle Earth. From actively going to war with Morgoth in the First Age to dealing only with Numenor in the Second Age, to sending emissaries (the Istari) in the Third Age - explicitly instructed to act covertly and not advertise their true nature, it is more than clear that the Valar toned down their presence in Middle Earth as Ages succeeded one another. We have no account of their actions from the Fourth Age onward, but Tolkien has stated that Middle Earth was meant to be our own world in the mythical past; so during the Fourth, or even Fifth Age, Middle Earth must have become the familiar ancient world of Europe, Asia and Africa, and we definitely know that the Valar have not made an appearance during historical times (unless they were behind the Minoan eruption of Thera in the Late Bronze Age 😛). And they've never dealt with Men apart from the Numenoreans. With the departure of Elves from Middle Earth at the beginning of the Fourth Age, there would be little point for the Valar to return to Middle Earth. We can assume they continued to be worshiped in Gondor for centuries or millennia in the Fourth Age, then they were gradually forgotten, or conflated with the pagan gods we're familiar with. Tolkien being Catholic, I'd imagine he envisioned Eru Illuvatar as the Old Testament God, intervening directly in the world to establish the worship of the "true God" once more, when people were ready for it. Long story short: we know the Valar did not return in person after the First Age, and it's a good bet they didn't even send emissaries from the Fourth Age onward. So, it's no stretch to say they withdrew from the world, and from the memories of Men.

[@GaryM67-71]

@@Nikolas_Davis Thanks for the response. I've pondered who is the true God, the Eru of our world. Was it Yehovah of the Old scriptures, or is it the mysterious Word. I think it is the Word, because Jesus demonstrated far more love and compassion than Yehovah. I think we'll know soon enough.

[@420keeneg9]

Why would you bring something so corrupting into a pure land free of such corruption. It's because it's so pure there that frodo was able to get relief from his wound

[@Zoëlle.Kawaii]

I always thought that the ring, if in the air, would become much more visible to Sauron's otherworldy gaze, just like putting a cell tower is going to give you much more reception because it's high up than if those transmitters and receivers were just on the ground. The higher up in the air it is, the more things will be able to see it. This is why Saurumon just knows where the Fellowship are on the mountains over Moria. The ring's transmission is so bright that up on the mountain, everything attuned to it would be able to see it from up there. The nature of the Earth itself helps to drown out the magic radiating from the right in a sea of noise. This is why they cannot take Eagles, as well as the Witch King on his flying mount would be able to see it and intercept it.

[@madambutterfly1997]

Canonically Aüle was the only other being in all of Arda who could destroy the one ring.

[@akiramasashi9317]

I'm sure any of the Valar could've done it. Even some of the Maiar like Eonwe might've been able to do it.

[@tolkienism3806]

​@@akiramasashi9317 its definitely a possibility since the valar are canonicaly stronger than sauron. But aule is definitely the best option since he is the craftsman valar nd also taught sauron the skill to make the one ring.

[@Wild_Danimal]

So like, why didn’t Aüle (or whoever else) just destroy it? This question simply shivers my Timbers

[@Fabio-zc7bs]

​@@Wild_DanimalI think the ring is basically a test for the races living in middle earth. Destroying the ring is the proof that Humans, Dwarves, Hobbits and other races can live by themselves and do what's right. The valar could have just invaded middle earth and killed Sauron by themselves. Tulkas used to melt Melkor, he is pretty able to defeat Sauron in combat. But I think Eru wanted his creatures to become independent. Much like when you are a father and want your child to be independent. You help them a little but you also let them go through a hard time to learn up to the point the child doesn't need the father anymore.

[@akiramasashi9317]

@@tolkienism3806 True, he could've smashed it with ease and it would be poetic justice in a way, but he wouldn't. Even if he wanted to, he wasn't allowed to.

[@liampowney]

I would love a video on how frodo's perception of the world/unseen world changed through the story via possession of the ring and being stabbed by the witch king etc., I think it would be so interesting!!!

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

Tbf the last time the Valar directly helped fight a war on Middle-Earth, they sunk a massive chunk of Middle-Earth itself. Dunno if the place would survive another of their interventions..

[@Freedmoon44]

Well Middle earth would sink, Cirdan would be forced to make another elven Haven further east and be like "make the straight path great again i want to see Valinor"

[@VAPYD]

I love these! They always end with "but Mt. Doom was the only way, Illuvatar be praised!" lol

[@OSUforlife]

The council was very busy

[@dallassukerkin6878]

First, some excellent imagery used in the explaining of this vital background to the tale. Secondly, what a mess we have made of the Fourth Age! We have forgotten valour and replaced it with venal self-interest; compassion supplanted by selfishness. I will not say it were better that Sauron had won but the Age of Man hangs by a thread and all will fall to ash, just as burned as if the Dark Lord had triumphed after all. If we do not find our way to the stars then we shall end here in foolish and endless conflict with ourselves.

[@stoner36s]

I already know the answer but I do delight in the sound of your voice. Soothing.

[@TrainerCTZ]

One of the hardest workers on KZbin. Hats-off sir.

[@wyldride]

"Oh, this one ring thing is a Middle Earth problem. You guys deal with it." "Uh, Sauron is one of your guys. It is a Valinor problem. In fact, it's a problem you guys created by doing such a terrible job cleaning up after Melchor." "Well, it's true we are terrible at our jobs, but that's not likely to change any time soon, so tell you what, we'll send a couple of guys. They'll probably mostly make things worse, but you wanted the help." "Worst. Angels. Ever."

[@jondonnelly3]

I know right, they sent two blue wizard who started some weird sex cult and succumbed to an enternity of pleasure or something. Fuk knows. A brown wizard with perma bird shit on his face. A white wizard who is an evil dickhead. Leaving really only Galdalf.

[@giacomobandini969]

"Oh, this one ring thing is a Middle Earth problem. You guys deal with it." "Uh, Sauron is one of your guys. It is a Valinor problem. In fact, it's a problem you guys created by doing such a terrible job cleaning up after Melchor." "OH NO NO NO NO. NO. The Ring is YOUR s**T. After Melkor, we left Middle Earth PROTECTED. There were Elf Kingdoms, And Fucking NUMENOR. Sauron couldn't do a thing against You Guys. If he did what he did it was because YOU f****D it up.First of all, The Elves helped him made the rings. But that was nothing compared to WHAT YOU DID. YOU INVADED VALINOR YOU ***holes! We had to call THE BOSS. THE BOSS. The Boss came, and levelled the plain field. He tool away NUMENOR, because you clearly can' handle that kind of power, but He also took away sauron power to trick you- because you people are too stupid to figure that yourself. He made sure you guys still had enought power to defeat him.... and you DID IT. You just had to destroy the ring..... AND. YOU. FUCK IT UP. AGAIN. AND NOW, you come to us begging for help? Take the ISTARI and get the fuck out of here!"

[@ryanmack719]

Could you please do a video on what powers specifically rhe One Ring gave to those who were in possession of it? It's mentioned many times about how dangerous the ring would be in the hands of Gandalf and Galadriel, which is understandable considering their ability to use magic already. But what would Boromir want it for Gondor? What abilities would the ring provide to stave off the armies of Mordor? The only advantage we really see it give is cause invisibility and long life. Not very effective in the grand scheme of a war. I think it would make an interesting video. Love your content.

[@maskedmarvyl4774]

The Valar were the definition of capricious remote assholes. They were praised by those who worshipped them, but would wipe you and all of your kind out of existence if you put one foot on their soil, no matter the reason.

[@MoritzGruber7]

As a reinforcing annotation: It is true that "the host of the Valar got involved at the end of the First Age", but noticably no Vala was present in person. The leader seems to have been Eonwe, there probably were some other Maiar, but the bulk of the host seems to have been Vanyar and Valinorian Noldor Elves, with the Valinorian Teleri responsible for transportation and refusing to do more. We hear of a heroic deed by Earendil and his aircraft (abandoning, this one time, is post as Morning&Evening star); it can be imagined that Finarfin, perhaps Ingwe and a fair couple of rehoused Elves (almost certainly Fingolfin; perhaps Finrod, Glorfindel, Turgon) have leading rôles. Must have been hard to bear for a Tulkas, or an Orome, to stay behind, but stay behind they did. And actually, the fact that none of them were present and Eonwe could only say "report to Valinor for judgment" is what led to Sauron getting second thoughts about his perhaps­­-sincere repentance.

[@Thkaal]

Valinor: Yeah, we're going to allow one of us to screw things up over there. Elves: And we'll help him. Everyone else: Um, are you going to clean up your mess? Valinor: What mess? Elves: Fine, but we'll only help you understand the mess.

[@kwerboom]

Is there any information about the last ship with Celeborn and Cirdan that left the Grey Havens in the Fourth Age?

[@woodysmith2681]

Good video. The Valar were cruel also because "it is time for men to take responsibility [for one of OUR corrupted and his power that is beyond that of men]" is not "men accepting responsibility for MAN's mistake."

[@JohannVF]

6:25 the Valar (or, rather, their decisions) were often at the root of the problems afflicting Men & Elves & Dwarves. Them stepping back, while an improvement (generally), was also a bit too early, as they left "unfinished business" on the field (mostly Sauron, the other rogue maiar like the Balrogs, and the Dragons) that everyone else had to deal with.

[@jgal-km1ds]

If Gollum had survived, would he have been able to take one of the ships to Valinor, since he too was a ring-bearer?

[@lyh3815]

maybe not since he had already been corrupted, Frodo and Bilbo going to the undying lands prevented further corruption, specially in frodo`s case with the nazgul wound, for Gollum, there was nothing to prevent anymore

[@BrooklynRedLeg]

Likely not since his mind was so broken. Plus, he likely couldn't even get on one of the hallowed ships of the Elves as it was...

[@Bruced82]

Why would he even want to go, the ring destroyed might make him go fully insane, too far gone.

[@warpedwhimsical]

I’m pretty sure if gollum survived the ring’s destruction his mind would be irreparably shattered by the separation from it. Assuming his several century old body didn’t just give out the second the ring’s power was gone

[@jgal-km1ds]

But Gollum wasn't fully corrupted. Remember that Smeagol also warred with Gollum in The Two Towers, so there was still some part of Smeagol who wanted to help Frodo, insomuch as serving the master of the ring. It wasn't until Frodo's 'betrayal' of Smeagol to Faramir that Gollum becomes the dominate personality, but there isn't indication (my recollection) that Smeagol was completely gone.

[@TheDoomDonkey]

I was going to leave a sarcastic answer, but then after watching the video and it addressing everything I was going to say, Well it goes to show how this channel very well presents the proper answer, and not doing it in an asshole or sarcastic way I would have. Good props to you, I one day hope to have such eloquence, haha.

[@subhasish-m]

I'd love to see some info on the history of Rohan, how it formed between the two great kingdoms of Men, and why they were known for their horses.

[@maierwoodworks]

Read the section “Cirion and Eorl” in unfinished tales and you’ll get exactly what you’re looking for. Very touching story that won’t disappoint

[@boredfangerrude8759]

As much as it sucks that the Valinor abandoned Middle Earth, it's pretty cool that they saw mortals as capable instead of children who needs to be controlled. Most higher beings in real mythology and fiction have the opposite perspective.

[@andilenxele3729]

Whats the significance of the colour coding the istari/wizard's go by? Why is Gandalf the white seemingly more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and even Saruman the "multicolored" (former White)?

[@ToothpikcOriginal]

You should discuss Fingolfin's journey across Helcaraxë :)

[@TexasTimeLord]

The Ring could only be destroyed in the fire from which it was forged. Even if the Ring was in Valinor, Sauron would remain alive and conquer Middle Earth anyway.

[@asmith1022]

I'm guessing Aule could've figured out another way to destroy it.

[@saulnoob]

That is the only thing they could be sure of! dragon fire was a possibility, but no dragons where known to exist and it would still be taking a big guess, although , as dragons were made out of melkors (and possible Sauron made some?) power., it may mean some High ranking maiar might just be able to destroy, pretty sure if the actual ungoliant was alive she might have a chance of just eating it, and of course any of the valar should be able to destroy it or make it powerless, as they were able to literally reshape the earth.

[@samueldimmock694]

@@saulnoob Ungoliant could certainly have destroyed it, were she still around. But given that Gandalf doubted whether even the greatest dragon of all time could have destroyed the One Ring, and that said Ring contained much of the power of a guy who was among the most powerful Maiar before getting a boost from Morgoth, and whose power was specifically the power to make stuff, I don't think that most high-ranking Maiar would be able to do much to it, and that's ignoring the fact that the One Ring could have corrupted Gandalf easily enough that he was barely willing to touch it without good reason. A Vala could maybe handle it; but after what happened with Melkor, I'm not sure any of them would have been willing to take that risk.

[@saulnoob]

@@samueldimmock694 a very certain approach! I would argue on how dubious would certain Valar be regarding the risk? For example if we place Manwe , or Ulmo or Vard, i’d bet anything they would be far above the rings influence or power, or Aule for example should know many more ways to easily destroy such ring. Not arguing with you, just really like imagining these kind of situations within the lore

[@KlaxontheImpailr]

In some parallel universe, there's a version of LOTR where Sauruman says "They're taking the ring to Valinor?!".

[@Mandolatron]

The ring was basically a congealed Sauron spirit. He wasn't welcome there. So why would they want him hanging out in ring form?

[@tiffles3890]

Who said they'd need to allow it? If one the Valar, specifically Aule, cannot destroy the Ring, then it's time to stop calling them Valar and just call them "grossly overrated Ainur".

[@gravmath]

Nicely done and correctly capturing the underlying Catholic viewpoint that Tolkien espoused. That said, the Valar did 'help' during the Third Age, most notably the wind from the West on the morning of the Battle of the Pellanor Fields. But this help was in hidden form and, perhaps, Tolkien thought of it as a kind of actual grace.

[@Ohshirho]

"We are the reason for Morgoth and Sauron and the One Ring, and pretty much for every shit that's happening in middle earth, but this mess is our gift of freedom to you, mortals. You will have to take responsibility for our relatives and show that you're mature enough to take care of someone else mistakes on your own, no eagles allowed. Good luck, lol"

[@DanielHochstrasser]

Elrond: The western road seems easiest, therefore it must be shunned. Pippin: The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm.

[@Menulo]

It always feels kinda odd that "Men have to deal with it themself" since Sauron is not Human himself, he's an Old evil from way before Men. How is it their fault, or their responsibility? Unless you see it as a sort of exam, like slowly taking of the training wheels, since they did still get a lot of help.

[@erkindanger]

Similar to why Gandalf didn't march into the Shire and depose Saruman (a fellow Maia and in no way a problem caused by the hobbits) himself at the end of ROTK, even though he could have done so easily by that point: Gandalf's mandate was not to oppose power with power, not to command or compel; but instead to inspire, instruct, guide, counsel, and let the Free Peoples make their own choices and do the work themselves, whatever the outcome - as would be necessary going forward when "magical" middle-earth eventually became our own mundane earth.

[@FernandoDANTE]

Love your narrating style!

[@toferg.8264]

One does not simply walk into Valinor!

[@gfsvc]

Kind of a dick move on the valar's part to pass on the burden entirely to middle earth since melkor and sauron were kinda both caused by them, or at least originally a part of them

[@danielkorladis7869]

I think you're basically correct. Sauron surely would have known that the council would consider the option and have spies and various agents on the path west from Rivendell and he also had control of the Corsairs of Umbar at the time so could have even taken the ring back at sea. Additionally the council had no way of knowing whether the Valar even actually could destroy the ring. They could take it all the way to Valinor only for the Valar to go "yeah, this has to be thrown into the fires of Mount Doom to destroy it." While the Valar may have refused it due to wanting the peoples of Middle Earth to deal with the problem themselves, I think to some degree they too may have feared its evil influence. After all, they knew that any one of them could potentially fall. Morgoth had originally been Valar. The most powerful (good) beings we encounter in LOTR, Gandalf, Galadrial, Elrond, all refuse to even touch the ring out of fear of being corrupted by it. Unrelated but I think you'd really enjoy The Malazan Book of the Fallen.