Is Coaching In Tournament Actually Cheating?

#fightinggames #tekken8
Back to my roots by reacting to @supermansajam "The Problem With Midset Coaching" - • The Problem with Mid-S...
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[@lordknightclips7878]

Go watch the original on Sajam's channel here!! - kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKLZZpeBfNKAm5o (also pls subscribe)

[@trippersigs2248]

Big fan of this new LK/Sajam infinite content glitch.

[@beansoclock8748]

the fgc really does just have the same discussion every 6 months lmao

[@trippersigs2248]

@@beansoclock8748 Not really what im taking aboutlol ( "is coaching bad" is definitely not a common discussion at least in my experience).

[@lordknightclips7878]

Coaching has never been discussed as an issue before, in my experience

[@Imbadatvideoganes]

@@lordknightclips7878i think has been in smash before. I remember talks of banning midset coaching.

[@kriosuranous3440]

@@Imbadatvideoganesyeah midset coaching was banned around 2017 I think, it was a big deal at the time.

[@free_playstation_2]

"there's like 20 mfs on this top 8" is a mad funny quote that i forgot Who said but it's actually peak

[@alejandrogomez1698]

That's really funny

[@Spark31Gaming]

I felt I should chime in since you mentioned smash and the coaching discussion has been going on there far longer than in the FGC writ large. Smash actually banned coaching in the ultimate era and now you can only be coached between games because of 1. How long sets already are and how long people would ice out their opponents and 2. Because smash players hated the idea of smash becoming a game of a "team" figuring out what to do instead of two people competing against each other.

[@NemSumeragi]

Speedkicks' main reasoning against coaching is that he REALLY enjoys the individual aspect of fighting games. It's just you and you alone to put in work and adapt to your opponent, while having the execution to match at the same time. Tekken has so much going on at both a surface level and deeper level that having a coach to instruct you will benefit players who are all-in on execution and thus don't need to think for themselves

[@larrywoolfolk8224]

Bruh the 2010s era FGC was absolutely the wild west

[@coolfish420]

I guess it's not cheating but I think it's lame as hell. Tournaments are knowledge checks just as much as they are execution or reaction checks.

[@lampad4549]

Isnt that the same for any combat sports?

[@allenhyde2346]

⁠@@lampad4549 yeah but you also aren’t getting punched in the face while playing a fighting game lol

[@kriosuranous3440]

I think it’d be cool to get your thoughts on the video “coaching in smash was wierd” by dizzledeezle which goes over a short history of midset coaching in that community and why they banned it.

[@ko-yoshi]

Bouta peep this 🫡

[@MegaJackolope]

There was famously one tournament for Dota 2 a few years ago where an organizer had no rules about the coach being inside the team booths during the games. PPD, 2015 team captain of EG which won the International was coaching a lower ranked T1 team and proceeded to provide input during the games until being called out on twitter. Ultimately, I think everyone involved knew Dota was never played this way but it was pretty much on the TO for not including a rule, stepping up to take action until after the events played out in full, etc. I'm pretty sure it definitely wasn't cool or admirable, but PPD himself has the personality of "tough shit loser" for most things from what I can tell.

[@shaolinotter]

I don't really care either way but im more annoyed that we can't just have rules instead of these waves of discussion. so many tournaments got ruined because they wanted to haggle about the hitbox rules mid event

[@Franko_L_L]

The Sajam reacts are indeed very powerful

[@BusyCasual]

If coaching is going to be allowed at events I feel like it should be limited to 30 seconds max per coaching session. For me personally, I always think if someone loses a match, gets coached, and then wins I'm always gonna look at it like the coach won and not them lol. Yeah I'm a hater.

[@finnmarr-heenan2397]

There is literally no reason for a coach in fgc other than to stop you getting cooked , real coaches in real sports are there to physically protect and watch over the match from the out side, because in real sports the athletes can’t “ see the whole screen” so they are actually missing key information. If ur playing chess and your missing an opportunity or street fighter and ur too stressed to see he’s going keep hitting u with over heads , that’s on you that’s game , u lost to the mental stack . If Justin wong leans over and says block high and punish is that really your victory ? Why not have the Tetris champion tell u where to place each block .

[@blastimbre]

Respectfully, the coach didn't play the match. That's a dumb way to see things. Just because a coach can see a pattern does not mean they have the actual ability to act on it. I can understand wanting it to be just between players, though.

[@BusyCasual]

@@blastimbre Your profile picture is accurate.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

Tournament play is about being able to adapt and overcome. The whole concept of fighting games is based on mistakes: making, forcing, exploiting them. Having someone to think instead of you without them having the stress of playing the actual match is an advantage. The one which isn't needed and which doesn't inherently make the game more interesting. It brings all matches closer to the meta, shifting the focus from the players and onto their characters. FGs aren't boxing or whatever. You have the full information, the ability to see all the same action on the screen and no one is hitting your head with heavy force. This doesn't need to be a team sport. What good does that bring? IMHO.

[@lojika1majik]

Agreed, but I wouldn’t care too much if that changes.

[@SaltiestSalem]

@@a_wild_Kirillian Yeah I agree. Part of the reason that I would say that coaching is important in combat sports is because the fighter's health is on the line, on top of the fact that they don't get to see the entire picture of what's happening.

[@chrismanghane8731]

@@SaltiestSalem Pretty sure competing in tournaments is pretty stressful mentally and intensive on your hands depending on your setup. Would you think coaching is fine considering those factors? In combat sports, the coach also provides advice to their side while checking up on them. Does it really matter if it's in the middle of the set?

[@SaltiestSalem]

@chrismanghane8731 I personally don't like it bc the mental stress is the entire point of the game You should pick a controller your hands don't get tired on, tbh, and coaching doesn't help with that anyways Coaching being allowed just leads into a coaching industry that I don't want any part of

[@CF565]

​@@SaltiestSalemWhat about non-combat sports like tennis or golf? Coaching is totally normal there, and doesn't diminish the accomplishments of the athletes, but nobody got any safety concerns there.

[@LadyViolet1]

I think the biggest problem with coaching is that it becomes a cost issue, and can be unfair because of that. Someone who can afford a good coach who has a psychology degree or something is clearly going to have an advantage over someone who gets a text from one of their friends that might not even be good advice. At least in open brackets I feel this way since everyone is supposed to be given a fair shot to win even if you're relatively unknown and not well off. I'd say invitationals where everyone is already considered a professional have more leeway to have coaches without issues.

[@zeywop]

most “coaches” are just another player in the bracket or a training partner at home. the idea of money matching someone better than u is paying to learn from their game. coaching has always existed, we’re just in the age of optimization so it’s under a different light

[@LadyViolet1]

@@zeywop Oh I don't doubt that, that's why I'm concerned actually. Since if someone does more than that they'll have an advantage over most players that are coached by mostly regular players themselves if they even have that.

[@CF565]

10:54 This point about needing to learn a new game every couple years, and how not everyone can do that consistently, is one of the big reasons why Daigo is my GOAT - dude has been high level for *so long*, and across so many games.

[@SaltiestSalem]

I just find the argument to be insanely simple. fighting games are a 1v1 competition with a huge emphasis on real-time strategy. adding somebody else's analysis to the equation, especially when they weren't in the match themselves, dilutes the real-time decision making of the competitors. competitors. additionally, I don't like adding the monetary barrier of having a coach or at least a good coach to a competition that is otherwise relatively accessible

[@globmonkey200716102]

Exactly. If you fail a knowledge check in tournament, you can check the frame data on the bus/plane home. I also agree that the idea of making coaching more "official" in the context of the tournaments will inevitably result in pro coaches, which will increase the gap between sponsored and non-sponsored players, effectively creating a financial barrier.

[@youtubeacc69469]

This is one of the worst takes ive ever seen. Ask literally anyone in an offline FGC or in an obscure game, if you dont have homies that know something and you arent a lab monster you wont know it. A region helps the development of players a ton. I learned so much random tech that I never thought about just from random lab monsters in my region. These guys couldnt win a tournament to save their lives, HOWEVER the knowledge they had was enough to swing entire matchups. We can say fgcs are 1v1s but theres literally no way for 1 person to gather as much information about a game as a region. Also if you told on yourself, these people arent being paid to coach its normally a homie.

[@SaltiestSalem]

@youtubeacc69469 We're talking about coaching mid-set. Difficult concept, but whatever you do before the set is not mid-set.

[@SaltiestSalem]

@@globmonkey200716102 Exactly. Though, I will say that knowledge checks might be my favorite reason on the side of coaching. I'd prefer to see the players expressing skill rather than getting gimmicked, but some people will say that researching what other characters are capable of is a skill, so failing knowledge checks is a result of that.

[@hands-ongaming7180]

So you don’t like coaches in boxing or mma?

[@azurepixels]

3:50 you might remember this when you came to Brazil, the crowd would get SO LOUD when one of our brazilian players would play against a foreigner, and even tho I don't know if people get that loud in other international tournaments, I get the hype for the USA chants, gotta cheer for your home country players

[@heroicsquirrel3195]

Its lame because it’s supposed to be 1v1 and if someone is seeing something youre not then tells you and it tips the scales its not you adapting or outplaying them, it becomes a team game

[@fromundaman]

Idk. I've been in the situation, especially in Smash, where I'm watching a homie play and notice the opponents' bad habits. Tell friend in between games and they bring it back by abusing those habits. Coaching seems kind of lame to me for that because you basically download the opponent as a committee.

[@j05h909]

Before watching the video, just bc he mentioned it in the beginning, in the UFC coaches are allowed the yell instructions to their fighters during the fight (not in between rounds), BUT they are NOT allowed to talk to the opponent

[@Killface2024]

As a coach can I put noise resistant headphones on my player and then play high frequency noises to interfere with the coaching of the opposing party?

[@scnoz1430]

I’m not a fan of it because the established long time fg player will have enough clout and support in the fg to get coaching from the best players in the world while a newer player will only have his boys from back home supporting them, if that.

[@lampad4549]

Thats every sports ever😂😂

[@1000Tomatoes]

People saying coaching will make it so that players won't have to know anything or make any decisions and can just coast on execution in the comments make me wonder if we're even playing the same games.

[@imaika281]

Maybe I'm misremembering because I watched way more tournaments including smaller ones and weekly ones back in the SF4 era, but I feel like we we have as many ad breaks as actual gameplay nowadays. Feels like every tournament I watch I barely get to see 2 sets play out before it's back to a 10 minute ad break, which has another 5 minutes of time before and after for the commentators to segue into ads and then reintroduce the event after the break. Sajam's first complaint about coaching taking up time is really just an issue that compounds w/ the excessive advertising issue. I know it's just how it is with the esports stuff but I much prefer catching vods after the tournament so I can skip all that shit.

[@comradetyrone2298]

I'll just say that EWC was the best Tekken 8 tournament so far and a huge reason for that is the no coaching rule. When Yagami made the reverse sweep against Chanel after being down 4-0, it was amazing precisely because he made the adjustments through trial and error and that win was his and his alone.

[@exiaR2x78]

Coaching is really interesting element, I dont think there is anything wrong with it if its small within reason and doesn't eat up a bunch of time. I've coached friends in bracket before and had friends coach me, often its just reminders about things we've labbed ect

[@paul-juniorblack6151]

I thought this would have been about the King Gambler thing lol

[@harpot678]

Rules will be made eventually when rules when the stakes get high enough sounds so stupid, nobody is ever gonna get shit done because when the stakes get higher people will go "Huh? We've always done things a certain way, we can't change the rules for something people have been practicing for, especially now when the stakes are high! Experiment with the ruleset when the stakes are low!". The inertia is extremely strong, either a controversial event happens and public opinion shifts heavily on a rule to change it or nothing will ever happen.

[@1wakuralain]

10:30 Wait, I'm new here but not new to chess. What "chess grandmaster guy" is he talking about?

[@chrisludwig4729]

Saying it's cheating is just silly, but I dislike coaching for a few reasons. Most importantly, it slows down matches. I also think an important aspect of evaluating an e-sport player is their ability to make adjusts on the fly. Taking that out of the equation is a mistake imo

[@Count_Virgil]

I do not think coaching is cheating, but I do think it needs a few more regulations across the tournament scene. The arguement that "real sports have coaches so pro gamers should have coaches is fine. But in real sports, EVERYONE has a coach. That person is designated for the role and has fixed windows of opportunity to adjust the players choices before going back the field or court. So those same restrictions need to be applied to FGC tournaments as well. The coach should have to register with the player, they get 1-2 mins to provide feedback and maybe that opportunity should be allowed once per set. So a player could get that feed back in Winner's side and once in the reset of grandfinals and that's it. The impact of coaching is obviously variable. Even if I had J.wong in my corner, I would not be able to make significant enough changes to beat my opponent cause I"m a normal dude, but I think it should be assumed any top 8 capable competitor could make significant adjustments if they had a strong coach and that COULD impact the outcome. So the coach needs to be registered before providing advice, should be displayed on the bracket with the player. This way the other player knows if their opponent has a coach or not, and it's their choice if they choose to not to have one.

[@Lenarian]

In the literal sense: No I am against coaching. I just want to avoid any braindead arguments over the definition of the word cheating. It changes the game to a different kind of competition that I don't want to see take over. Happy? 1. These games are 1v1. I want to see the best player of the day rise to the top. Not the best player and their whole 40 man pit crew celebrating THEIR win. There can be team formats. That's a cool thing as well. They just need to be strictly defined by TOs so they can be kept in their own lane. 2. The mental game is just as important as whether or not you can land your punishes and combos. Being able to overload your opponent's mental stack by presenting them with enough choices to make their head turn fuzzy is just as valid a strategy as being a footsie god. Being able to offload the strategic layer of the game to others (extreme example) or even just have someone else come in between sets to ground you with an outside perspective and remind you of your game plan (realistic example) diminishes that aspect of the game SIGNIFICANTLY.

[@musacajelly2941]

I think for something you have to qualify for like Capcom Cup you should be allowed to bring a coach with you and each player should be allowed an optional 2 minute coaching break per set. It could make the games drag but I don't care, I think the competitors should come first in something like that. Their in a foreign land competing for a million dollars and representing their scene or potentially even their entire continent, with stakes that high they deserve an oppertunity to reset their mental state, even if its just a Leon Edwards style "pull it out of the fire" hype speech.

[@finnmarr-heenan2397]

Coaching a real sport especially combat is not the same as someone looking the same screen your looking at and giving you the answer.

[@finnmarr-heenan2397]

Coaching a real sport especially combat is not the same as someone looking at the same screen you are , and telling you the right answer .

[@musacajelly2941]

If the solution to why your is losing is so simple all it takes is another person looking at the screen and telling you to mash harder, your not making it to Capcom cup even under ideal situations. And if the person your losing to can be foiled by another person looking at the screen they aint making it to capcom cup either. I'm not talking about a 1-2er getting coached on how to get out of pools I'm talking about top level players who are in a pro-tour because they have minimum 1 large tournament win under their belt that year already.

[@Student_DBFZ]

Whats the ost @13:00

[@SHAP00PIE]

The point about cheating is making the issue too black and white. Imo it's not cheating to get coaching but it offers a big advantage. And yeah everyone has access to get coaching but it still introduces anoother variable thats not 1v1. Some coaches are better than others and some people cant just get a free coach whenever they want.

[@OGamelon]

If they gotta shout it so the opponent can hear it too that's fine

[@yamine_Q_ray]

personally i thinking they could find a way where it didnt make the viewing experience worse i wouldnt mind it.

[@godskinn]

This the first time I heard sh music on LK vid

[@partimentieveryday]

Ban it universally. Not every play has access to a coach

[@VGDeepLore]

I think the question should be less "is coaching fair" and more "what value does coaching add"? If two players have coaches, does the benefit of mid-set outside game knowledge supersede the burdens placed on viewer experience and player requirements? I don't think so. I don't think it creates a tangibly more interesting game. I feel like if coaching becomes a thing players need to have, it's just to create more ad-space, and that sucks.

[@GeoGyf]

Money talks & whoever has the most will hire the best coach (or the organization will hire for him/her).

[@axis8396]

Coaching I dislike because of the time between games, however I often watch vods so I can just skip that. I don't really have a dog in this horse though

[@BarakBrooks]

Why would anyone have a dog inside of any horse?

[@sportscarsetc.6539]

Nothing is cheating if it isn't against the rules. So, SHOULD coaching be made illegal? I don't think so, I think it just needs some tweaking. I look at other sports and see where they have things like a time out where coaching and tactical adaptations occur. Or places like a Offensive line huddle in American football. I think in a ft3, each person should be allowed one "time out" and given like 20-30 seconds for coaching if they want it. But they just get that one coaching moment per match, and they only get to use it if they just lost. The person currently winning the ft3 does not get to bring in a coach.

[@horizonbumpy2828]

''there's this twitter thing, some people get really annoyed'' isn't that mostly what twitter is? just a bunch of nobodies that get annoyed at everything

[@surrendering2within]

What does gap mean? Skill gap?

[@NemSumeragi]

Yeah

[@10100viperman]

winning between two evenly matched players would end up down to whoever had the better coach instead of which player outperformed the other

[@CF565]

This isnt true for literally any other one-on-one competition, why would it be for fighting games? Combat sports, tennis, golf, chess, go, whatever- nobody says the elite performer won because they had the better coach, we always give the competitor themselves the credit for the win, the coach is always ancillary.

[@Nofixdahdress]

I wouldn't call it "cheating" because whether something is cheating or not depends on the agreed upon rules. If we've agreed to no coaching, then its cheating, but if we've agreed that coaching is allowed, then its not cheating. I do think it goes against the spirit of a 1v1, every man for himself open bracket tournament though.

[@AndrewSmith-sl5zj]

Its cheating, its no longer about the player vs player anymore... now its also about how good the coach is etc etc which is wack

[@Addictedtocollecting01]

Needs a time limit. But if other sports allow it, why not competitive fgc?

[@finnmarr-heenan2397]

Well because fighting games aren’t a sport, they are more like a chess match that requires the execution of a skilled musician. Sports are athletic endeavours . But to elaborate coaches in real sports train and mold the athletes the be able to physically preform the feats required be it stamina or technique. On the day of competition the role changes from teaching to observing, they watch the competition, the officials, the match , they are there to ensure your safety and fairness, in fgc the player can see exactly what the coach sees so essentially their only role is to tell u the right move to make , which again if u view fgc as a chess match it’s lame and redundant to be told the answer .

[@nidium1951]

YYEAAAAAAAAHHHHHH

[@Killface2024]

What is Coaching Specifically Defined As? In video games, it's relatively easy to govern the in-game match because the game's rules are fixed and cannot be broken. However, when we introduce out-of-game elements-such as coaching-there needs to be a clear definition and set of parameters to govern these actions. This is essential in ensuring that out-of-game behaviors do not directly interfere with or affect the competitive integrity of the match.

[@roarkviolet1912]

If coaching is to be allowed it should be restricted to once per set with a time limit, I personally have no issue with coaching since as the opposing player you should at least know what they're telling them based off what you've been doing. Them getting coached is like a mix with setup you know that the mixup is coming and as a result the value or strength of that coaching is reduced as you can interact with that, you can adjust your play after you get confirmation that something has changed and theres always the possibility that the coaching isn't sound if what they're coaching is based on the state of the game or something not character specific. For example doing lots of tick throws on someone who is respecting your pressure, the coach may be telling them to press more in those positions but they have no idea if you've already decided to change that.

[@maninredhelm]

You've got 364 days a year to get coaching. On the 365th day, it should be pure 1v1. Otherwise we're adding additional financial hurdles for people who travel long distances to compete in tournaments, because now they've got to pay to bring an entourage if they want a perfectly even playing field. 364 should be enough.

[@OGamelon]

Who tf would be bringing a whole ass entourage of coaches?? Let em shout from the crowd

[@muckdriver]

This may be the scrub in me talking. The big issue I have with people arguing against coaching is the knowledge argument. You can't say it's about the 1v1 and skill then bring in "should have read up more" especially when things are less intuitive. For example I'd say if I was kickings someones ass with something that has a weird timing to avoid or counter it "you had the right idea just have to do it a tad bit slower, just a real tight 2f window" then they proceed to beat me they're the better player. It's like telling me you play honest characters, then your mains whole design was silly set-ups and the only reason they're honest is cause they're bottom tier or something like that.

[@finnmarr-heenan2397]

99 times out of a 100 ur coach isn’t going to be telling you something new mid match, there job is to remind you of what u all ready know, to have an outside perspective untainted by adrenaline ,to diffuse the mental stack , fight your pathologies and get back on the game plan, in actual sports this is crucial because the athletes can’t see the whole “ screen “ .and are subject to exhaustion and injury . In fighting games the whole point id to rise above the mental stack and execute by your self in the moment . mid set coaching is lame.

[@lunamaster123]

I mean, I wouldn't consider the player who has less knowledge than the person they are fighting against to be equally skilled. Knowing what your opponent can do and how to beat with it is part of learning how to win consistently. Them knowing the match-up while you don't makes them the better player.

[@nlm7033]

My take is that its lame and if you need your boyfriends help to win then this may not be your thing

[@fezthedracky8468]

What's the difference between someone coming in to tell you soemthing you know rather than looking into your notes the same way Go1 does? Achieves the same benefit, but we think it's lame because it's someone else saying the same things a book would?

[@lizabeth529]

is it ok if my coach is my girlfriend instead

[@lunamaster123]

@@fezthedracky8468 If a coach is coming in and telling you something you already know, they aren't really coaching you. The purpose of a coach is to tell you something you don't know or give advice based on information you missed (like your and your opponent's habits).

[@librarygary1618]

Posted by a guy who will never compete or win anything in his life 😭

[@fezthedracky8468]

@@lunamaster123 if you're a top/high level player you already know all that, it's keeping the mental stack in check that's the biggest issue. And coaching at a mid level is less likely to be truly effective since the top coaches sit with the top players. I'd much rather see absolute highest level of play possible. If this means someone comes in for 30 seconds to remind a player of a trap thst they csnt seem to keep in check, I don't see the huge issue. Maybe we make it a thing where each player gets 1 call in during a set or smth so we still have that slightly elevated level of play, whilst not taking up egregious amounts of time

[@librarygary1618]

I'm noticing a distinct stench on people who are actually arguing that mid-set coaching is "cheating" and they all smell like the types of cringe mfs who say "sportsball". Just 0 concept of sport or actual competition outside of their video game of choice. It's like this is the first time they've ever had to think about this dynamic (because it probably is).

[@AftermathRV]

0:30 its prohibitively expensive. if you dont have a mate who knows their shit, youll prolly pay for a coach. and you cant just ask another dropped pro to grudge coach you, because coaching is a niche skill people need to develope its not cheating but its a rich get richer thing imo.

[@sage8148]

imagine cheering for the usa in any context

[@pocketvices]

Imagine being a scrub

[@lojika1majik]

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[@nlm7033]

sir, this is a McDonalds, and I ordered fries. Hop to it son.

[@sage8148]

@@nlm7033 i hope your whole family has a nice christmas

[@hands-ongaming7180]

@@nlm7033haha making fun of working class people is so funny 😐

[@stud1o699]

I think sfl is a good example of a fair team based and interesting coaching format. I don't love it during 1v1 open brackets