Is The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom Meeting our Expectations? - EP138 Kit & Krysta Podcast

[@XiTSlash]

Big tip, use Z-targeting before summoning an echo so it attacks as soon as it appears, this is a great way to attack fast so as soon as the echo attacks, summon another one, repeat.

[@Lucarioguild7]

Yep this right here, I've been wondering why people think the combat is boring in Echoes, turns out they're just summoning stuff and watching them fight 🤦

[@XiTSlash]

@@Lucarioguild7 Yep, spamming Lizalfos while Z-targeting is almost as if you are just pressing Y to use your sword, or lance in the case of Lizalfos.

[@ambrosiajam8008]

You can just spam your echo summons for a faster attack! There’s no cooldown for summoning your echos no matter how much they cost, so I just keep resummoning a darknut for faster sword fighting, or other similar things like that. Works like a charm, AND has an added benefit of confusing the enemies too!

[@ShallBePurified]

I just spam the rolly guy and the enemies don't know how to deal with it, especially when I bind them lol.

[@100megayoshi]

I love how the Echo, Bind, and Follow mechanics combine with each other, and has very limited restrictions. At first you think the game has restrictions how you summon echoes, but the game just let's you do as much as possible to combine them. Some examples: - summoning echoes mid jump - summoning an echo while bind is holding an large object. - summoning echoes in rapid succession to get fast attacks in - bind to hold an enemy in place while your echo attacks.

[@Orakio]

"You're the meat shield for me, usually." Confirmed: Kit is Krysta's echo.

[@wizawhat]

There's a really fantastic video my favorite Zelda adjacent content creator put out breaking down Nintendo's "box garden" design philosophy that is very emblematic of modern Zelda. It's called "The Question No One Asks Miyamoto." I recommend it, but the reason I'm bringing it up is because it really cemented in my mind that this is what Zelda is supposed to be. With that in mind, Echoes of Wisdom really feels like a more palatable alternative to what Tears of the Kingdom was going for a wide audience. I absolutely agree with how ADDICTIVE it is. The pokemon analogy was spot on and something I was thinking for myself. I'm really enjoying this game.

[@geminisfl]

I saw that video too, and is absolutely relevant talking about Echoes of Wisdom

[@frankblackburn]

I’m really liking Echoes of Wisdom! Really looking forward to where Zelda goes in the future. Also looking forward to the videos from Japan!

[@eddieanderson9399]

Echoes of Wisdom is a masterpiece. It doesn't care if you like it, love it, or dislike it. I just passed the game yesterday and am starting a new file having a better idea of how to play it and its even more fun the 2nd time! the flying tile echo and ball & chain darknut echo are 2 of my favorites! 😊 (people have no clue how fire this game is especially when u realize u can combine echoes) blew my mind 😮 (spoiler alert)

[@steviemeeks]

Man, I really wanna get Echos of Wisdom now, sounds really cool after hearing your thoughts

[@hiimmloom]

I believe i'm 3/4ths through EoW and so far it's a 8.5/10 for me, it's so nice having proper zelda music back, the npc's are so sweet, the world is lovable, having such a large arsenal of tools makes for a completely different playstyle than other zeldas, and I think the smoothie system is a really nice replacement of potions, and I find myself using them all the time. For me the deducted points mainly come from the dungeons. They really don't make you think at all. Just a series of rooms with simple puzzles one after the other and feel like they take 15 minutes to beat. And a central problem for me is that you only really have one goal, which is to find the boss key. There is no one-of-a-kind echo you need to find that unlocks new parts of the dungeon, you can easily solve the dungeon without collecting the map, there are almost no branching paths, you don't even learn echoes of the bosses(as far as I know) you just leave the place with +1 heart and thats it. (Spoiler warning!) The only exception seems to be the Deku dungeon, which so far was my favourite sequence of the whole game. For examples of some great top down zelda dungeons I think most of ALttP's dark world dungeons count, Fortress of Winds from Minish Cap is really great, the later ones from Link's Awakening like Eagle's Tower, and Oracle of Ages also has some great ones that I don't remember the names of. If I could just get one wish for the next Zelda games it would be to get dungeon items back, just imagine if you got the water cube in the middle of the zora dungeon! I just miss that overall sense of progression. But overall I'm having a great time, the side quests are fun, and all the experimentation is very welcome into this format of Zelda games:D Also Tri is a really boring companion

[@Yae_1995]

Echoes of wisdom is the best 2d top down style Zelda game. It’s not as big as botw or totk but I was highly engaged the entire way through. I can’t wait to see how they expand on this format of Zelda.

[@pokemaniactim]

56:19 the water cube is probably my most used echo. It’s so versatile. I can use it to cross gaps, climb mountains, and drown enemies. Lmao

[@crossoverdreamer7016]

Congratulations! Now you have as many podcast episodes as episodes of The Twilight Zone 1959 and Get Smart 1965.

[@SchoolofRockNRoll]

Genuinely love the hair Kito-san :)

[@sirmel11]

Krysta's hair is on point!

[@Lucarioguild7]

I highly recommend using echoes that charge forward and attack immediately then summoning another as soon as they hit.

[@SirNintendo28]

I love the post-vacation version of Kit 😂

[@Cr3ator3ss]

You can get into an echo menu that’s sorted by type by pressing + in the echo menue

[@lyozixv]

Dragon Quest 3 looks absolutely phenomenal. This remake is such a beautiful tribute to this legendary game.

[@theteeman]

That's definitely me with Kit's feeling on how hard it is to fall asleep on a plane. If it is a red-eye flight for like six hours. That's likely the best I can do. I like to enjoy my time when I can't sleep on a plane if possible. I can't wait to get my hands on Zelda EOH someday! Two more weeks until Mario Party Jamboree. Can't wait and it's been a long time since I am excited for a Mario Party game. Welcome back from Japan to you both. I can see why Zelda EOH is worth getting and Krysta finally collecting a physical game copy in a long time.

[@mjr8550]

“I love this horse,” he says in response to hearing how mean it was.

[@MedalionDS9]

Natasha Bedingfield? Phew... I have more to say but... the rest is still unwritten

[@CCoreXB]

Not the puns…!!!😅

[@geminisfl]

1:09:28 I'm glad to be "the voice of the people"!!! ♥

[@Umbrella2]

I’m really enjoying the game a lot and think the echoes are great fun, I will say though that I’m finding the game a little on the easy side…

[@inessofrino5125]

"Don't you dare say another word about that tiny horse" , me the entire time I play next to my husband 😂 Love these 2, great videos as always 🫶🏻

[@Cr3ator3ss]

There have been some hard puzzles in optional parts of the game. At least I haven’t solved them yet 😅

[@lethallohn]

I wish the puzzles we're a little more difficult and the final dungeon/puzzles we're longer. I think it's a good game.

[@RetroGoosen-ux8ty]

The echoes are like Pokémon with one move.

[@tdotran]

Portability factor > everything.

[@SummersFrost]

Love Echoes of Wisdom with all of my heart but I just wish Zelda could wield magic 🙏🏼

[@colebeck6528]

I feel like the first few dungeons are very linear but it gets really good by the second half of the game

[@2696andrew]

I like the new lore of horse girl Krysta

[@RetroGoosen-ux8ty]

You get to control a Lynel

[@nerdwriterfighter212]

I am just reminded of the Tiny Horse SNL sketch.

[@Zen.Connection]

I used to think Kit not understanding the appeal of dungeons and how the latest games are falling short in that respect was played up as a bit, but I don't know anymore. I know he's a big BOTW guy and generally not into puzzles but still, just replay OoT or TP and it should be pretty clear what's missing in the latest iterations of Zelda dungeons.

[@AREAlhero]

Notice the inability to explain it yourself, and instead gesture with language like "it should be pretty clear", if it was so clear then explain it? The same thing happened in today's episode with Kit asking Krysta "when was the last great dungeon you enjoyed?" and she didn't have an immediate favorite to give and just a good one from the game she played before this (LttP). This is a microcosm of the exact issue with those who parrot the "but the dungeons!" critique; their critics don't realize the appeal of dungeons has been moved to be spread throughout the game, but because it doesn't fit their exact mold of a "dungeon" their brain short circuits and perceives something as missing when it is not.

[@Zen.Connection]

@@AREAlhero Weirdly aggro response, dude. If you wanted me to explain you could instead ask nicely. Tbh, I didn't think this was a topic that needed to be fully rehashed every time someone adds a comment. In older Zeldas, each dungeon was itself a main event to look forward to. You could always expect a new central mechanic to discover, often a big dungeon-spanning navigation puzzle you need to figure out. You'd get to explore a unique (in terms of visual design and music), huge, and intricate location that had real history/significance in the game's world. You'd get to upgrade your arsenal with some cool new gadget, and then later take it out into the world to see what new locations and solutions it opens up for you. They were generally speaking the meatiest and most rewarding sections of the game. It used to be that a large subset of Zelda fans' main draw to the games was the dungeons - what they look forward to in a new game is to solve and fight their way through a series of imposing fortresses. For those fans, the newer games are losing a sizeable chunk of their appeal, whether or not you think that's valid. And to be clear - I like the new games plenty (over 130 hrs in both BOTW and TOTK, and so far really into EoW). But any long-time Zelda fan should be able to acknowledge that they've been fumbling on some key aspects of what made dungeons so good (each time a little differently - TOTK's did clearly improve on BOTW's in a couple respects). I look forward to seeing how the Zelda team tackles them in the next game, since they've historically been pretty responsive to feedback.

[@AREAlhero]

@@Zen.Connection But that's when you have to actually analyze the design of all the games and realize the fault people are having is that they are simply failing to recognize that "the philosophical change" between pre and post-BotW games isn't where they think it is: the philosophical change is how do you spread the parts of the game that matters throughout an open world? In any prior Zelda game, there are usually only 8 parts of the world that matter to the vast majority of players: the dungeons. But how can that design be recreated in an open world? It can't be done because the point is the overworld should be the most important location in that design pattern. So what the the BotW team realize? You can just put more dungeons in the world, just smaller in stature. Cause remember, all a dungeon is is a collection of puzzle rooms, so lets fill the world with puzzle rooms, and make bigger puzzle rooms for special locations. And also, sometimes the dungeon is actually the way you get to the dungeon (this technique is used sparingly in older Zelda games, but BotW and TotK embrace this). So its the same core experience (puzzle rooms) except more numerous and throughout the whole game. And just a correction, very few dungeons in Zelda's history actually are unified by a core central mechanic, you can count them on two hands. Most of them are linear. Read up on Mark Brown's series analyzing Zelda dungeons, you could learn a few things.

[@HybridLetsPlay]

@@AREAlhero not taking a side on this but I will 100% agree with watching Mark Brown’s videos on game design over at GMTK, especially the Boss Key series.

[@Zen.Connection]

@@AREAlhero You could just leave it at the fact that you disagree instead of the random assertions that I must have no ability to analyze game design. I have no idea why you think that's a necessary or appropriate way to have a conversation. But on the topic of analyzing game design, dungeons are definitely much more than "just a series of puzzle rooms", as I spoke to in my previous post. Something like shrines is in no way a complete replacement for the experience you get from dungeons. You must see that. I understand what led them to the decisions they made in BOTW, but I (and many others) just think they could make different decisions in the future that can satisfy everyone. Frankly, it doesn't actually take much imagination to see that it can work. It's just not what they were going for in BOTW (and by extension TOTK). These games still have dungeons - they can be made to be bigger, better, and more like the previous games' dungeons. There really isn't a fundamental incompatibility - it's a problem to solve, but I believe in Zelda team. And you're just wrong that it was rare for previous dungeons to revolve around a central mechanic (it wasn't always a big flashy navigation puzzle, I mean anything new to chew on that the dungeon revolves around - basic level design stuff really). I was going to mention Mark Brown's videos myself, since you seemed genuinely unaware of what makes the older Zelda dungeons sing, and he does a great job of at least partially describing them. Funny. I'm getting the sense already that continuing this exchange isn't going to be productive, so don't expect further replies.

[@Mithos05]

I never knew people didn't like rumble. I've loved it since the N64. I get upset when a game doesn't really use it honestly. Also there's a decent number of PS5 games that use it well. Mainly first party. I'm playing Stellar Blade right now and it uses it well. Switch oddly doesn't use it as well but I'm playing Luigi's Mansion 3 for the first time and it does a pretty good job. I love rumble so much. Unless it's a game I need a keyboard and mouse with, I use a controller even on PC for that reason. It adds to the immersion. It's hardly a gimmick if it's been around successfully for what, 2 decades now? Also what the heck, i love fondant or tasty. 😢

[@Mike-sy5zn]

I think we all collectively got "the look" from Krysta about what’s going to happen to the horse in Echoes of Wisdom. lol

[@cassiodvieira]

1:29:28 it's called "the girl who steals time" because the game steals your time by wasting your time.

[@MedalionDS9]

I still haven't received my Echoes of Wisdom yet in the mail... frickin hell I am no longer preordering physical games anymore!

[@Blballerboy]

Store pickup exist

[@Yae_1995]

Yeah online ordering is hit or miss. In store pick up is always your best bet

[@iacobus4227]

Sorry hope u get it soon. I preordered from GameStop to support their business. I know everybody, that’s what I get right? Anyway came out Thursday. Had to wait til the following Monday. Never again unless I go in store.

[@MedalionDS9]

@@iacobus4227 it came in today, thanks

[@KuroNekoNetwork]

A very glistening Krysta 😂😂😂…… no comment

[@Alcaatraz01]

I appreciate your guys' calm take on the breakdown of the innards that go on behind the scenes when a company is struggling. That being said...your characterization Ubisoft pulling out from the TGS show makes it seem as if you're on unaware of the controversy surrounding the game. The overwhelmingly downvoted videos they post and any new press they put out has shown a lack of preparation for the type of game they set out to make. Seemingly the problem is that every time they show something new, it's always bad press. So for once they actually made the right move. The CEO directly commented on the allegations and actual mistakes they've made in the memo to staff and investors.

[@sirmel11]

Isn't the issue that fans are racist?

[@tomsimmons7673]

They leaked an internal memo that the game was full of bugs. It had more to do with the poor ratings of Outlaws.

[@ToadKart2]

Dorito Pope got arrested!

[@MedalionDS9]

How do you guys not have Jet lag from flying back from Japan?

[@kitandkrysta]

☕️

[@KuroNekoNetwork]

@@kitandkrystadid you at least get a good TOP DOWN view from the window seat? 😂

[@KuroNekoNetwork]

Hey, I totally used ratatta every game he was in

[@zachcarmichael699]

There's already a glitch to play as Link, complete with full hearts and his weapons lol

[@PaulGaleNetwork]

I’ve been playing The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom, quite a bit, all weekend long…and have been really enjoying it! Playing right now as a matter of fact, haha. Good to see you back from Japan. Here’s to today’s podcast and Shocktober! 😁

[@KingSigy]

I do enjoy Echoes of Wisdom, but I’m a little sad that almost every dungeon and puzzle can be solved in the same fashion. You have all of these echoes, but you never need any specific one.

[@chhem]

The issue with the Zelda game is it constantly switches between 30 to 60 fps which is jarring

[@aricruz_]

So was link to the past on the snes this isn’t new, is also not as bad for me I’m playing on my oled docked

[@Umbrella2]

I genuinely haven’t noticed this myself, only spotted a laggy bit at the beginning bit of the game in Hyrule Castle Town.

[@Aktedya1-jt7vw]

​@@aricruz_I hope that's not you defending the game, and just you saying why you personally are fine with it. Link To The Past is a 30+ year old game...

[@aricruz_]

@@Aktedya1-jt7vw no I’m not defending the game of course I prefer better frame rate I’m just saying is not a big deal

[@aricruz_]

I just didn’t like having sooo much echos half of it I didn’t use Some aren’t necessary

[@Aaronnoraator]

The bit about the Mario behind the curtain sounds like a massive overreaction on Nintendo’s part. It's as vague as Mario behind a curtain and to be honest, the Switch did live up to the hype

[@homebrewGT2]

45:00 don't worry, they created a problem by doing that... just to fix it with Nintendo Switch 2 and the scrolling wheels on the new Joycons!

[@zurradra]

It was basically... My Little Pony 🐴😂

[@matteogagliardi8688]

I definitely don’t think that Assassin’s Creed Shadows and Ghost of Yotei have similar settings. Shadows takes place in the Kansai region in the south of Japan during 16th century feudal Japan. Whereas Yotei takes place in the northern island of Hokkaido during the early 17th century. So if you choose only to play 1 of these games, base your decision on these attributes.

[@two-nichegaming4482]

The gold Switch Lite apparently comes with 12 months online, if Nintendo later patched in a multiplayer mode for Echoes of Wisdom it would be better than a post game Master Quest mode, then I bet everyone would want to get all the heart containers and secret echoes for that extra edge in an Open World Zelda DEATHMATCH!... would multiplayer offline even be possible on the Switch without internet?

[@Blballerboy]

Nothing about the switch 2 leaks?

[@kleev6576]

I am very disappointed in the soundtrack for Echoes of Wisdom. A Link Between Worlds had MUCH, MUCH better music.

[@EPS5000]

Krysta learned Japanese just for the new Zelda?

[@MaisieSqueak]

Nintendo's uniqueness is why I continue to be interested in them. Xbox and Playstation, exclusives aside, are much of a muchness in tastes and direction. I am fully married to Sony on that console front and have absolutely no interest or bitterness towards Xbox. I don't believe it provides anything to me. Whenever Nintendo announced something, however, I'm always very interested. You can always bet you'll get something completely different. In fact I would even suggest, despite its flop, Wii U was actually a great console. It may not have done well on performance against its peers, but what it did was incredibly cool and fun... When developers used it s. Quirks and didn't try to crowbar other console games onto it.😊

[@nerysandoval9808]

Game was mid 😢

[@MaisieSqueak]

Games developers! All games have to be named with alliteration or words of one syllable... No letters or acronyms! Anything more is just TOO confusing for Kit!!

[@kellygreens6748]

The game unfortunately took a step back by trying to appease Ocarina of Time widows. I hope Nintendo goes back to the much better BOTW/TOTK style in the next game.

[@Aktedya1-jt7vw]

But Ocarina Of Time isn't top down?

[@sirmel11]

I don't like a huge open world with no story. I prefer a grand story and an actual path to follow, not all the freedom. I like order.