Isaiah & Mormonism - David Bokovoy Pt. 5 | Ep. 1881

David Bokovoy delves into Isaiah's significance in Mormon scripture, prophecy, and current events with an emphasis on understanding biblical prophets as social critics, not predictors of distant future events. We discuss scholarly debates on Isaiah's authorship and anachronistic references like brass plates, clarifying that the writings of Isaiah as known today did not exist in Isaiah's time.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
David Bokovoy Remaster Playlist: • David Bokovoy REMASTER...
Chapters
00:00:00 The Book of Mormon could not exist without Isaiah
00:05:40 The One Mighty and Strong
00:19:40 Two types of covenant relationships: grants and treaties
00:25:08 Chiasms
00:31:00 Pre Classical vs Classical Prophets
00:47:00 Who is this Isaiah? Scripture Plus
00:50:55 Isaiah bulla
00:54:40 Proto-Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, Trito-Isaiah
01:30:30 The Cyrus Cylinder
01:38:00 Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
01:43:45 Apologetic responses
01:52:30 A trickster God?
02:02:00 Trito-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
02:17:45 Ezra Taft Benson clip & closing thoughts
___________________
At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well as scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals.
Our overall mission is to:
1. Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology
2. Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis
3. Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions
🤝Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today
One-time or recurring donations: donorbox.org/mormon-stories?d...
Patreon: / mormonstories
Venmo: account.venmo.com/u/mormonsto...
Paypal: paypal.me/mormonstories
Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @mormonstories
Our Platforms:
🌐Mormon Stories Blog: www.mormonstories.org/episodes
🎙️Patreon: / mormonstories
✳️Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/4sDzk7d...
🍎Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
🖼️Instagram: / mormstories
📱TikTok: / mormonstoriespodcast
🎮Discord: / discord
Contact us:
📧 [e-mail]
📬PO Box 171085, Salt Lake City, UT 84117

[@jamietodd3728]

David is my favorite and most inspirational guest of all time. Listening to David inspires me to be a better human every time I listen to his story. Thank you ❤

[@tracygrist9550]

Absolutely

[@jake8882]

Guys, this was incredible. Thank you for helping us understand the significance. It helps all of us that know the book of mormon was a made up work. The longest time I think a lot of us tried to make it all work. There are too many problems in the makeup of the lds faith to just brush under the rug. The peace and comfort to know we are all ok outside of the church is beyond expression. I want to encourage those that are struggling to know it gets better. Time heals. Deconstruction takes time. Thank you Thank you thank you!

[@imkindofabigdeal4308]

Well said. It is hard for many to accept that God really did want us to "leave the garden" so to speak. To figure this stuff out on our own. For people who want someone else to tell them what to do, this thought is disorienting. Yes, we are ok outside LDS inc.

[@MouseQueso]

David just gave the best explanation of the scholarship around Dutero-isaiah I have ever heard.

[@sharonminer9350]

Please have David on more often!

[@heididpursley7380]

Mr Dehlin I believe this is episode quickly tops chart, Nathan has a very realistic and identifiable rawness with how he speaks his truth. This felt like I was sitting on the patio tonight relaxed enjoying the peace and rejuvenation of a change of season with a friend or family member down here in Southern Tenn. Nathan IM PROUD & HONORED to share The title of Tennessean and I hope to see more men in our generation to wake up to some hard questioning and then speak out against the deeply embedded religious, social, political, CULTURAL indoctrinations that are prevalent in Our Southern ROOTS! …… A large amount of maternal family is from and continue to live in Crossvile. Thank You for sharing and Im hopefull and grateful that your story will be a major inspiration for so many.. PEACE AND JOY AND SUPPORT

[@fibbermcghee23]

I LOVE attending the university of David B. truly a master educator- love his voice and flow of language extraordinary.!!

[@johnp.1460]

Fascinating episode! It’s also great to see Gerardo back.

[@IAmJustOneMom]

David B, thank you for your scholarship and ability to teach the truth about Isaiah and Nineteenth Century fiction aka Bk of Mormon. Life and free spirituality is gorgeous beginning.

[@ZakMakoff]

In Seminary I got in trouble for pointing out the similarities between the BoM and Isaiah... My mother chastised me for making such remarks.. my Jewish dad threatened to remove me from early morning seminary at Olympus high school if I couldn't speak my mind! I wish we had Bokovoy back then to back me up. Great Episode Mormon Stories Podcast!

[@lisalambert5493]

Same

[@lisalambert5493]

It wasn’t my parents who chastised me. . .it was a church leader/teacher.

[@jamescutler428]

This is one of the most valuable episodes you’ve done, right up there with the Robert Ritner interview and Dan Vogel and only a few others. Showing us the evidence that points to what the church’s founding scriptures really are is more to the point than almost anything else.

[@Jsppydays]

Best pod cast ever. Thank you all.. David speaks what I believe and have seen especially about the LDS leaders.. God bless all what a wonderful time to be alive!

[@suebamford4763]

Binging on these fabulous episodes. Thank you so much.I seem to recall David saying that Joseph Smith was more of a channeller?or receiver of revelation than translator. I felt that this was an amazing point of view and helped me a great deal. I believe that David could have saved the huge exodus from the church. My children, grandchildren, siblings have all left the church but I believe that David’s scholarship, humanity and charismatic, engaging manner may / probably would have saved them. Good on John for having him on the program. Knowledge is power. More please if possible but if not THANK YOU. 💐💐

[@spenceredford4403]

Marriage therapist to couple: “In order for your relationship to succeed, you need to both stop faking chiasm.”

[@HAMOROGO]

What an interesting episode, thank you guys, thank you David Bocovoy, from Panama in central America,🙏

[@amberonstine1447]

LOVED every bit of all 5 episodes!! Thank you ❤

[@Jsppydays]

Excellent video. Most real and genuine. It seems like some of those who know the truth will not tell the truth, so dishonest. I know the leaders know, I have prayed about it. This is why they have to come up with a different narrative and continue Revelation is not over. Joseph Smith misunderstood what he was reading. Simple mind with a little gaslighting. Obviously. This is what we need to pray about. . This is the most informative video, thank you very much. The church needs to come clean yesterday. Just saying.

[@justkeepgoing2657]

Love this guy!!!

[@kathrynneyer5442]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

[@mjordan79705]

Great episode! Most of the scholarship concerning deutero-Isaiah and tríttico Isaiah came out in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, so Joseph Smith probably wouldn’t be aware of those critical theories.

[@dianemelling5446]

David Alexander has my vote for the one mighty and strong .With that laugh.. how could he not be?

[@charlesmendeley9823]

David Alexander could kill me. I would die from rolling my eyes ever so hard.

[@imkindofabigdeal4308]

Loved David Bokovoy week!

[@clcole5655]

Love love love all your episodes with David COME BACK FOR MORE

[@ron3537]

Thank you. Looking forward to listening to this.

[@zeecaptain42]

I really like this man. The finishing words were beautiful...

[@angelacraw2907]

An amazing lecture. Thank you David for bringing your incredible talent to this subject. I'm a non-mormon but love ancient history and thoroughly enjoyed this podcast. John your wonderful channel surpasses excellence again.

[@tracygrist9550]

David- you are so brilliant.

[@whitesalamander]

Well worth the listen, thank you all!

[@user-vk7bt2vw4r]

Outstanding episode.

[@loubylou1899]

JK Rowling got it right- a prophecy is nothing unless people believe in it. Or as the spiritual people put it, we create our own reality. If people choose to concentrate their thoughts and feelings on death and destruction they will bring about death and destruction. If people choose to concentrate their thoughts and feelings on peace and love they will bring about peace and love. I know which of these things sounds like Jesus. It's kind of depressing that so many religious people are determined to usher in death and destruction in order to bring about an era of peace and love and so many non religious spiritual people say we don't need that to bring about an era of peace and love.

[@bws71]

Similar theme in Dune.

[@keithmills4748]

wow what a super cool dude ... that was facinating but I loved Davids summery at the end where he talked about its beautiful to have spiritual independence and to find your own path ... when he talked about the pain caused in the LGBTQ community and to the patriarch ... wow very moving ... I was a mormon in the 80s and struggled sooo hard with the churches stance against women and against blacks and against LGBTQ ... it is so liberating to be able to follow my internal soul and not speak like a pre programmed borg from star treck x

[@lindachristie8453]

He is so awesome ❤

[@iamjustsaying1]

This excellent episode helped me to much better understand the Isaiah issue.

[@Pay-It_Forward]

Howl-Elujah praize the Lard. May the Lard be with thee forever!

[@nellie1rene642]

🥓 😂

[@hectortheconnector]

It reminds me of the show criminal minds where scientists explain the thought process of the person who committed the crime David is a Dr. Biblical surgeon

[@Zeett09]

If it’s not there this info should be added to the CES Letter.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@Zeet. ABSOLUTELY

[@haroldpeterson7106]

Well said David. Now come on over and we can listen to your favorite vinyl album.

[@jasonwilson8802]

The LDS church would be better off, I think, by accepting that the BOM is an inspired work of Joseph Smith and that they are just another off- shoot of protestant Christianity with its own liturgical traditions, rather than claiming it is one and only true church on earth that is the restoration of the church and priesthood that Christ established here on earth. If they did that, most members wouldn't need apologetics other than just saying "Well, this is just my faith" But because they are so steadfast in their claims that it is a translation of ancient plates that tell a historical narrative that is also the word of God as much as the Gospels are, they are put in a much more uncomfortable position of trying to defend and prove that position. I think eventually the church will change the narrative as scholars like this man make their case.

[@16CENTS561]

Love this! I find it fascinating btw, never morman here

[@jaysonpowell8708]

Please have David and Dan on at the same time.

[@unclebart100]

I used that BYU talk to summarize all apologetics: Disengage, Disagree, Negotiate, and Appeal.

[@jeffkunce8501]

@mormonstories Is there a link to the slides somewhere? Or, a list of slides with timestamps? For those of us who listen as a podcast, it is kind of hard to search for them in the video.

[@jeffkunce8501]

If the church could admit that the BofM is 19th century literature, and if it had leaders with integrity that served the people ... Wouldn't that be Community of Christ?

[@LongJourneys]

I kinda want to write my own versions of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and market them alongside the ones that the LDS church does on Amazon

[@spencerlercher4059]

Before I watched the video, I had a vague understanding of the Book of Mormon Isaiah issues. Now, I have a more detailed understanding. The biggest Book of Mormon anachronism is the following: "For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God" 2 Nephi 25:19 This would have been true if Jesus lived in Athens and Christ was a surname. His first name was Yeshua or Yehoshua. I prefer Yehoshua because it is closer to the English equivalent, Joshua. People most likely called him Yehoshua Ben Yosef or Joshua, son of Joseph. Christ, or Messiah, is a description of the figures who are involved in Israel's redemption. I learned this from a Jewish Rabbi and Scholar, Dr Juan Marcos Bejarano Gutierrez. The author of "Forgotten Origins: Lost Jewish History of Jesus and Early Christianity".

[@yeahdefinitely6607]

1:43:20 - is this the reason for the 8th Article of Faith? A ruse to convince that only JS’ writings (the BOM) could be relied on as factually correct, rationalising any biblical discrepancies?

[@chubbuck35]

1:15:00 is when the smoking gun evidence starts!!

[@MsBRET]

In the ‘90s I took a Teachings of Isaiah course at BYU taught by Victor Ludlow. He taught that Isaiah’s prophecies have multiple fulfillments over time 🤔

[@Resili1]

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽❤️

[@zach9850]

Josh Sears was my new teatament professor. Interesting to hear him say that.

[@bonojennett]

What did Josh say?

[@bonojennett]

1:44:45 just hit the point in the video.

[@MonasticSolace]

The bromance between these two is strong. LOL.

[@msmdare]

What you said doesn’t even reflect the respect of knowledge and the longevity of a genuine friendship. Silly word ’bromance’ the folly of todays memes’

[@andrewmole745]

Bokovoy seems to have missed the fact that Isaiah tells Hezekiah about the defeat of Jerusalem and the fact that his descendants will be taken off into slavery: (Isa 39:5-8) Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah, “Hear the word of the LORD Almighty: The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your predecessors have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon. Nothing will be left, says the LORD. And some of your descendants, your own flesh and blood who will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.” “The word of the LORD you have spoken is good,” Hezekiah replied. For he thought, “There will be peace and security in my lifetime.” It is important to remember also that Micah prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem at around the time of Isaiah, and he is quoted in the Book of Jeremiah (Jer 26:18) as being one who predicted the destruction of Jerusalem and was not persecuted… PS This does not at all detract from the fact that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon.

[@rkn2800]

How do the prophets of the LDS Church, from Joseph Smith to Nelson, compare to prophets of the Bible (exactly the same, similar, different)? Is there a coherent and consistent definition of the term ʻprophet’ throughout the text and across LDS prophets? and how has the role been adjusted over time in the Bible and in the modern church? I ask because LDS Church leaders seem to use the term for themselves, but deny actual revelation (at least on a regular basis) in First-Vision fashion like Joseph Smith describes (I don’t believe Nelson has ever had such a vision or even a personal conversation with Jesus/Heavenly Fater/Mother).

[@rkn2800]

After typing my question, I got the answer in the episode: "Biblical prophets typically funcitoned as outsiders and critics of authority. They were individuals who censured both the religious and social system of ancient Israel. Rather than administrating *over* the people (in either a religious or a political sense), the way prophets traditionally function in Mormon traditions, the biblical prophet was typically a figure who instructed leaders concerning the way they should properly exercise their authority in terms of military, cultic, and moral activities..." AND prophets were women as well.

[@spherence]

They are just the same. All swindlers.

[@hardwork8395]

They were that and no more than diviners and believers in some magical worldview not shared by modern Christians.

[@bws71]

Great episode. I was surprised to not hear any reference to Dan McClellan. I was curious to hear how much interaction, if any, David and Dan have had.

[@bonojennett]

They did mention Dan McClellan.

[@bws71]

I must have missed it. Any idea what timestamp?@@bonojennett

[@sheliabryant3997]

@bws. Doesn't your question answer itself?

[@spherence]

I read Revaluations at 5 years old. It was not frightening. It was obvious that the writer was a primitive intellect tripping balls. 55 years later and a lifetime of research in religions and I find myself correct.

[@hardwork8395]

Maybe, but the book of Revelation used extremely common, stereotypical imagery from the late 1st and 2nd centuries. Clearly writing about events from that time and not the future.

[@davidteeples2558]

Was the prophet or the monarchy in charge of the church in antiquity?

[@bonojennett]

1:36:00 this needs to be explained to a lot of people. Some theories are definitely more established than others with where the evidence points.

[@spherence]

The Book of Revelation was written high on the wrong kind of mushroom 🍄.

[@DoctorWithoutDogma]

How can you tell if your prophet is faking a chiasm? Asking for a friend.

[@hardwork8395]

One thing I would point out to my Mormon friends regarding their belief that all these old prophets would presumably be prophesying about events so far into the future, that ancient Israelites couldn’t possibly falsify the prophet according to Deut. 18:21-22: “21 You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.” Again, if they aren’t prophesying about current events, or events that will come to pass within the lifetime of the listener, how could that ancient Israelite ever confirm the prophecy was valid, in order to know whether to ignore the false prophet? Mormons aren’t thinking through things critically. Essentially, if the Mormon is to be believed, Deuteronomy was wasting its breath, and all those ancient Israelites hoping to confirm the prophet as one sent from God or not, were simply SOL. And all because God didn’t really care if people could actually confirm prophetic lies from truth.

[@savyjett]

I think bokovoy needs a pince-nez. 😂

[@savyjett]

Also, ancient history is one of my favorite things. The older, the more fascinating.

[@jamesbayless5842]

25:59 my wife has never faked a chaism.

[@capc2ndlt]

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father infinite; the Son infinite; and the Holy Ghost infinite. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved

[@margynelson7945]

John Delin- PLEASE do not end up like Korihor! It didn’t end well for him! Turn around and be like Alma the younger!! You could do much good if you choose to.

[@bonojennett]

Korihor is a fictional character. If God really functioned the way that he did in the Book of Mormon, people like Richard Dawkins would have been struck dumb and trampled to death years ago. Secular society isn't buying the myth stories anymore, but you're clearly all in making the empty, ominous threats that all fundamentalists do.

[@lizzybeary]

He's doing plenty of good. He helps people heal and allows their voices to be heard when entities only worried about control wouldn't listen.

[@lizzybeary]

He does plenty good. He helps people heal and allows their voices to be heard when entities focused on control wouldn't listen and squashed them.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

It amazes me all the hate of this channel, perfectly in line with God. Oh wait, it's the exact opposite of the teachings of God 1 John 4: 20.

[@lizzybeary]

When have they ever said anything hateful? If person A lies and person B tries to find out what they lied about, how does that make them hateful?

[@bartonbagnes4605]

@@lizzybeary When person A makes up fake lies that person B never said, that IS hateful.

[@skgroovin915]

​@@bartonbagnes4605way to prove her point. Person A in this scenario is your church. So you're right. When the church lies over and over, it is demonstration that they genuinely hate their followers.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

@@skgroovin915 If The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints ever start telling a bunch of lies you'll have something to worry about, but none so far. Sure a lot of people have claimed lies, but when you look at the data, their claims fall apart. But Jesus Christ did prophecy that would happen to his true followers, "Blessed are you when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake; rejoice and be exceeding glad, great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they prophets that were before you." If your leaders don't have all manner of evil spoken against them falsely, only when they are actually caught in adultery, or murder, or embezzlement, then you have to wonder why Satan doesn't care what they do or teach.

[@skgroovin915]

@@bartonbagnes4605 data?! Lmao what data supports the Book of Mormon at all? Literally zero percent. Good grief I should have known better. Your church is founded exclusively on lies, minus of course God and Jesus Christ. Who also prophecied extensively about all the false prophets that would pop up. You don't think your church could exist to drive people away from Christ once they discover just how fraudulent your prophets are? That's just as valid a possibility as a treasure seeker and fortune teller seeing God and Jesus at 14 years old and then never telling anyone about it til years later.

[@stevenpage763]

Wow. . .it is sad that a guy has so little going on that he spends his whole time attacking the beliefs of other people, rather than pursue his own beliefs. . .it says a lot about you. Especially when your stuff has been discredited as lies and half-truths so many times over the years. Can't believe you are still around doing this crap.

[@lebethany53]

Might I suggest therapy for your inability to deal with facts that threaten your narrative?? 😂 what does it say about you that you have to come on this page and attack OUR BELIEFS? Best of luck!

[@stevenpage763]

@@lebethany53 Hahahah. . .what "beliefs?" Criticizing another's beliefs is not a religion. I would love to hear from anybody on this channel what they "believe." It can't be just "anything but what the Mormon's believe.' That is just sad. .

[@stevenpage763]

@@lebethany53 Hahahah. . .what "beliefs?" Criticizing another's beliefs is not a religion. I would love to hear from anybody on this channel what they "believe." It can't be just "anything but what the Mormon's believe.' That is just sad. .

[@lizzybeary]

​@stevenpage763 You do know that people can have beliefs about something without subscribing to a religion, right? You said "criticizing someone else's beliefs isn't a religion." That's absolutely right, it's not. What's your point?

[@skgroovin915]

It's not criticizing beliefs, it's criticizing lies.

[@mae-qt8hw]

Not a fan of the so called boble scholar

[@stevenpage763]

Why do you delete all contrary comments to this dishonest channel? What are you afraid of (besides the truth)?

[@sundancer93940]

finally...look DeFordward to my forthcoming book. "The Churc Must Be Born Again". Robert DeFord. Esq.