J. Krishnamurti - Ojai 1982 - Discussion with Scientists 3 - The need for security

[@SufiPoetry]

My only addiction is listening to this man, I feel like I am so dependent on K for psychological security, I need to stand on my own feet.

[@Hmida32]

It seems that it is necessary for us to have a guide so we know how to get through the first steps of self-inquiry, listening to this man and to other spiritual guides will show us how to self inquire and naturally stand on our own feet

[@maxmacful]

I like the connection, to naturally stand on our feet

[@Ritziey]

i feel you

[@zarathustrap2562]

But it seams like he believed in an utopia that can never really happen. If I stop identifying as a French and we just open the borders to anybody because we are all the same we will be destroyed within a year. Same think in an individual level, if I stop identifying and I have no self, another person will absolutely destroy and abuse my innocence. And it seams like he taught think he didnt act himself because I am very sure he identified with his own beliefs, his own theories. At the en d of the day as human beings we are imperfect, and we are identifying, comparing, categorizing and selfish creatures, our brains have evolved to do so. His way of viewing the world may have worked for him maybe (and I dont believe it) but it will never work for all humans. He said for eg identification causes war, but we need to, its not an option, we need to identify to something, if not we become nihilistic. And I am also sure he has not really investigated religious ideas and their necessity to the world, rather he just saw religious people do bad things in the name of religion and made a conclusion from it. (Sorry for my bad english)

[@hemantkhare5545]

In the same boat brother.

[@philiproness6976]

JKs deep understanding of the human condition is amazingly precise. Like watching a surgeon operate.

[@bolna21]

now i really feel internet will change world. this type of discussion is treasure.

[@thejourneyofone2425]

Krishnarmurti was beyond genius. When I see and hear him I feel like I'm in ancient Greece listening to Socrates.

[@StarvEgoFeedSoul]

hahah EXACTLY ^^

[@FelippeMedeiros]

Precisely. Along with Alan Watts, I would say Socrates and Plato

[@skemsen]

Excellent analogy. I wish I could have conversations like this with people in my life and further more that humanity as a whole was much more interested in this more than game shows on TV, politics or tribal behaviors etc.

[@SatchidanandaAshramYogaville]

“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

[@constantincoltisor1612]

Or a person mastering the high on ketamin, Lsd or other psycho active substances. Or thru fasting and yoga, sitting meditation and a really well trained mind. These are the orders of how to achieve his state of awareness it all comes with loads of books afterwards to know how to communicate it to humans .

[@timotejkresnik2209]

I think he should be recognised as the most important ''thinker'' of the 20th century.

[@Kalistero128]

I, ve been following you K for years! listening, careful, watchful... and when a saw this video tonight, the second time, i just got what you were trying to say to this scientist, and to the whole world!!!!! It is the ultimate happines!! really!!! Love to you and anyone who can understand this!!

[@ajaykumarchilukuri1728]

JK isn't the kind of person who would answer your questions. You go to him with a question and you end up with more questions. Questions that you have to answer for yourself and thus come understanding. Finally you find no answers but there are no questions too.

[@jeffreysevinga9398]

When you don't ask you know. :)

[@Kobe29261]

That last piece is the one nobody seems to remember how to accomplish and he never would quite say - the capacity to pay attention to the final question in a way that dissolves the question without providing an answer . . . there are moments where Sheldrake comes close to realizing Mukti in this one . . . but how would I know?!

[@erzsebetpoda2161]

Exactly... just more and more questions, and then follow more and more "nothings". :(

[@dnt000]

@@erzsebetpoda2161 Hello, could I ask you what is not clear?

[@arunodaya55515]

@@erzsebetpoda2161 maybe it is what it is .....us as humans...maybe its in our DNA or our evolution..idk!

[@perry_123]

I have never seen 3 bright men being silenced ,,,,SILENCE..Beautiful so Beautiful

[@assekhon1887able]

That's your ego speaking. "I can see that they are not bright because I am brighter". This was tackled in the last discussion itself, ie, incessant comparison as a form of self-identification.

[@kooroshrostami27]

Not sure Böhm is silenced, Böhm is actually on the same page with K. for the entire conversation.

[@kellykiernan7785]

I think they are just giving up because they are three hours deep and have yet to learn one thing or get any useful information about how to transcend the ego and transform their lives.

[@gc7304]

I watched it 2 times. At first, I have realized that something important is going on in this conversation and in 2. I could understand it. Feels great to understand JK deeper and deeper

[@skoobee6765]

Third time you listen K vanishes. Try it.

[@aash2009aash]

I love Krishnamurti! Amazing and pure genius!

[@Rheologist]

Absolutely profound. This is the greatest profundity I have ever pondered. This is beautiful.

[@xdude57]

yep, i feel this video has changed 'my' life irrevocably.

[@edithhorvath2829]

He did leave a footstep in the sand of time 🌸 of human society

[@hakantopkaya3150]

a giant one at that

[@rockyrai7314]

A God Man without any Scripture or any Temple, even without a God. OMG. Just GREAT.

[@didyoubansalbansalisthe6878]

Krishnamurti dialogues - the best therapy sessions period a calming engaging atmosphere no bs. Therapists/psychologists pls learn.

[@heylive91]

These lectures are beyond and beyond

[@edithhorvath2829]

There is not many 🌟 stars we could valued the quality of this programme of help today

[@jonathanm4880]

These are like gold... Thank you for uploading

[@ericsesame6321]

It's interesting to see how their lives turned out after this meeting. Dr. Sheldrake's main area of work is Morphic Resonance which is considered a pseudoscience. And the late Dr. Hidley focused on neuroscience and consciousness. It may not be the case, but I wonder if these dialogues played a part in their later careers. These are bright men whom I wish I could have a discussion with like this.

[@audriussiliunas1222]

Morfogenetic resonance is fact based already and is not pseudoscience at all. Is brain states(what is causation of consumption, toxins from the birth, toxins out of consumption, toxins out of digestive system microflora, hormons, neurotransmitters) past event's, social status and ort cousing mental states what is can be changed by meeting vice versa mental states or higher entities

[@jasveersingh-rp8lc]

if yoy will do vipassana meditation, you will understand there talk in real experiencal level not only it will help to understand it will also help to Earadicate those defilement which they are talking about. and don't believe me blindly try it and you will know.

[@kooroshrostami27]

There are contemporary interviews with Sheldrake which reveal that he totally missed the essence of what K. was trying to convey. He sees to have fundamentally misunderstood what K meant with "I am humanity", for instance. Hidley I don't really know much about, I think he published some book about the nature of consciousness and I believe he died a couple of years ago. But you can tell from their reactions here that they have some definete "aha"-moments. I mean, K. is basically saying that all the commonly practised psychotherapy is nonesense, because it's individualistic and only ever solves superficial problems without ever challenging the deeper roots of psychological suffering. He is basically saying all that psychotherapists ever do is modifying neurotic behaviour into a more socially acceptable but nonetheless neurotic behaviour. I am sure this must have haunted Hidley for a while after this discussion at least.

[@cromnickranaaninon7569]

The problem is deeply rooted that begins in a childhood moment. This is a fact to many people who had experienced abuse from their parents. The feeling of insecurity begins with that by the moment we become abuse by those supposed to give the unconditional love that we need. Our life is a testimony to this fact.

[@aliquran7535]

I have a question, I am doing research for school. I'm Not sure if you can answer the question? What was J Krishnamurti's look on inspiring? Does inspire or to be inspired create movement? Please respond. Thank you

[@kooroshrostami27]

Not sure what exactly you are getting at, that word has a more common meaning as well as a more spiritual, but I reckon that K. would consider than notion rather dangerous. Inspiration implies an outside agency, something that infuses me with a greater spirit or whatever. This means I depend on an outside agency to inspire me. K. actually says in part 3 of this talk that we are to reject any kind of outside agency. Because as long as we depend or put hope into an outside agency, this ultimately prevents us from assuming responsibility and acting toward finding out the root of human conflict suffering and trying to put an end to it.@@aliquran7535

[@AmorJenhani]

“When there is the observation of the face that the observer is the observed, and that state of observation in which there is no observer as the past, that is attention”

[@KlPop-x1o]

Observation is an act, not a state

[@bijit2291]

45:42 is the basic answer of the whole 3 part series. To sum it up : Be the observer and you will be full ( not dependent on anybody ).

[@larsnorqvist6905]

I got some good news for you: there is 4 parts! :)

[@digvijayacharya7823]

Watched all the 4 discussions. At each and every point , it is engaging and unraveling into the messy consciousness. To question , to examine , to be watchful is what I learned from these sessions. May everyone start with "the self" upon leading the way of change. Many thanks to the ones who uploaded it. 🙏🙏🙏

[@SofaKing_Kong]

Js conversations are amazing! and its also amazing that were able to watch this nearly 40 years later:) and that even without ads♥️🙏

[@angelandrews5105]

This is all explained in krishnumurti freedom from the known book it is really beautiful when he explains that you should give it complete attention by not giving it attention your separating it from you who is all of that.

[@siddharthsid3638]

This series doesn't even have 1 million views?? What's wrong with us? Are we not sharing this video?

[@phnx4life]

Look at the world today..completely neurotic and even perhaps mass psychosis.

[@dharmazhu3138]

The best dialogue which I ever saw, from 1 to 4 series dialogues of them. Nice 🙏🏻

[@dennymmg]

Where there is attention, there is no worry.

[@auggied6760]

These are two of the greatest minds in history and it only makes sense that most people have never heard of K or Bohm. Krishnamurti's teachings changed my life forever. I simply followed his formula of looking into the self and, yes, reality changed; a transformation that allowed me to see what exists devoid of the egoic self. It took me years before I could understand what K's teachings were trying to convey, but with enough attention on the center, the self, all becomes known, especially because we as the microcosm are a mirror of the macrocosm. Much of this is explained by author Vic Shayne in his book The Self is a Belief. As Socrates said, "Know Thyself." This is all there is to it.

[@upnesswayup5668]

Teach me how to look

[@gangasagarransarje5873]

@@upnesswayup5668 🤦‍♂️ Did you head the whole thing, don't surrender yourself or give authority to anyone to teach you how to read yourself. I'll help you to Kickstart...take a question and brainstorm about it. For example : What wrong did I do today?...and go deeper and deeper asking whys and hows to the same question.

[@elmarwagner2683]

@@upnesswayup5668 Can't you listen to J.K.? Why do you think the problem is the teacher and not you?

[@ranjitsamal6843]

The content of consciousness is the me or ego. conflict starts when the ego rationalizes experience based on likes and dislikes and wants to have more of one kind of experience and avert from other kind(pain and pleasure). Complete acceptance of the fact that what is being experienced, there is nothing to be changed by the self frees our mind from conflict and saves a lot of energy or suffering stops. Suffering is trying to attach to one kind of experience. Rather if we attend to experience in the present moment without any filters we live a rich and happy life

[@duluoz8198]

Looks like the only one completely following is the psychoanalist though he is baffled by the complexity of it...I love his expression of total awe every time he gets it

[@elenol1310]

Yeah , all of them. I actually like them all❣👏

[@bezonshroff]

If he was a psychoanalyst he would have injected value into this exposition of deeply flawed K theses. Psychiatry attracts persons with a marked propensity for linearity; not sure why he is a participant here.

[@dnt000]

There is no complexity in understanding this, it's not an entertained way of logic that's it.

[@0076jan]

He is psychiatrist- medical doctor who treats psychological medical conditions. He is not a counselor.

[@kooroshrostami27]

Is it complex though? It's actually very simple, it's just hard to realize because it goes completely against our common way of thinking.

[@kamaurahamukti5919]

so absolutely mind blowing & BRILLIANT 🙏🏽✨

[@doc_verma]

One thing is clear that, our language is main barrier in understanding all these at root level. Don't have precise vocabulary to explain what JK knows and for others to understand, as we think in terms on vocabulary that is there, when its not enough, how can one think in terms on words when words are not there...so most of time when we feel these, we are silent... Upon asked what are you thinking, we say nothing and talk something else coz basically there is no means of conveying what were feeling.

[@RajeevKr_90]

No word for Mr. jiddu krishanmurti , great.

[@Bala-nc4sn]

Great teacher JK sir. Lot to learn the way he steers the conversation, unfolds misconceptions, how he respects others'...and razor sharp intellect. And his choice of words is lot better than the other 3 like when Dr said "escape" he said "dissolve" on the subject of escaping from fear....and cleared that up in an earlier part session. Beautiful. I can listen to this civilized, interesting and "gold" many a time. Thanks for uploading.

[@manjubcom4484]

I love his words and way of approach

[@Gaurav.P0]

I loved the last 3 minutes conversation 😍

[@easylife7682]

Best discussion i have ever seen

[@girlfun2849]

Thank you Jk 🙌🏼 such detail peeling away our illusion of a center “ego” nobody is home in this body/mind though intelligent responsibility continues to move throughout our life. 🙏🏼🎯

[@pratik6342]

J.K the eye opener ❤

[@birdsnbows]

air water food shelter (need) self remembering/self observation (want) "The observer is the observed over time"

[@Rheologist]

I just realized that Krishnamurti might have been pioneering mindfulness

[@liastalard40]

Attaining a "Oneness with All and Everything" eliminates the need for security and suffering. Being a Holistic Being

[@SuperGGLOL]

This is pure gold. So thought-provoking.

[@phnx4life]

Thought-provoking? ..is that necessary?

[@andreyvaleroso]

Labeling krishnamurti as a “religious philosopher” is not really listening to every word the great man has ever said.

[@magic71202]

Right. He is neither religious nor a philosopher.

[@zuudikiusjegeeye5384]

I cringed when he introduced him as religious man! 😏

[@popps33]

Mhm. He’s more of a Psycho-Spiritual Investigator.

[@viran87]

Well.. "religious philosopher" does not necessarily mean you need to support any religion.

[@elenol1310]

Yes haha,thats true

[@emonty62]

32:52...end of discussion, full stop

[@reflectingself330]

This knowledge is coming in the way of me functioning efficiently in this world. I am addicted to his word. Most of the time thinking about or listening to him or others. In the other hand I have to earn money to feed myself and my family, But i am always thinking about this kind of abstraction

[@reflectingself330]

Just I am thinking and this thinking is making me exausted, tired, leaving no energy to function much more efficiently. No action and i don't no what action is necessary

[@jakirhusain2077]

Jk was great human being.coming again Sir.

[@mrtt7972]

When I listen to this conversation s when everything is going wrong it helps to see the truth helps defragment the hard drive inside my head.

[@OrdinaryPersonah]

jk just made this whole thing clear, i never had such clarity ever before, the self that we often refer to actually has no independent existence, i can really see it. so glad that i came across jiddu krishnamurti in this life

[@achyuthvishwamithra]

Krishnamurti employs the fusion of Socratic Method and Indian metaphysics. To me, it appears that the line of questioning in itself is cyclic and will profoundly almost always conclude by hinting at the idea that the visible world is illusory as long as our awareness is bound by the experience of time. On the other hand, David, whenever he speaks, gives profound answers that are fixed deeply in the reality, very similar to his work - The pilot wave theory which offers a more intuitive and alternative explanation to quantum mechanics. It is highly possible that existence is illusory. However, even after knowing this one cannot liberate for the same reason that we are part of it and will always be. Why do we consider ourselves special?

[@kooroshrostami27]

I don't remember that K. ever suggests that the perceptive outside world is illusory in its existence, from what I've heard of his talks he is a realist in that sense. He suggests that the existence of the me is illusory, as if the center were there first independent of whatever content of consciousness, like I am there and I could either be happy or sad or neither, but actually when there is no content, there is no I either, like in dreamless sleep there is no content and hence no me, there is nothing.

[@laoisemeehan]

Their reactions are priceless

[@Thought-is-Time]

Yes one notices them getting more and more pulled toward „his“ ocean of wisdom, like gravitational attraction of a black hole/ „singularity“

[@maringantikrishnamohan6975]

At a point we need to leave all enlightened beings and move alone in this unknown path though a feeling haunts whether We are really missing the path and suspect whether do not know how to progress and constantly doubt whether we are carried away by trifles,yet struggle is inevitable.An imago toils a lot in cocoon finally a beautiful butterfly emerges that relish the nectar of being from innumerable flowers !

[@aliquran7535]

47:50 jiddu “ again you are experience but you are experienced” That mean there are no experience” Rupert Sheldrake” Theres just attention, you mean. Rupert Sheldrake, he laughed in a way saying J. Krishnamurti…. wow you are mirror ❤️

[@samsonamanusia]

he gave a mischievously obvious answer on 35:59-36-01..

[@444fool]

02:40 is the conclusion❣️

[@edmissonmassingue6140]

I finally understood! The observer is the observed, such a simple concept, so "obvious"! Not that obvious though! But I get it now!

[@chikuman6224]

what a lovely man

[@HeatherKMB]

Amazing. So happy to find these

[@patryk9806]

"the past is the observer" - did you feel that too? like your ego is colapsing right after this sentence...

[@elenol1310]

Thats not "your" ego, its just ego ahh

[@SuperGGLOL]

My ego has collapsed. What am I?

[@Danskadreng]

@@SuperGGLOL Fluctuating existence. You're it.

[@covalentbond7933]

@@Danskadreng "you're it" - goosebumps

[@bezonshroff]

Having identified thought as the prime saboteur of illumination, K spent his life engaging the thought process of his listeners....the observer/observed consideration was one item in the bag of instruments he opened at every 'discussion'. A feature of the illumined condition cannot be an item you can talk about. Something to wonder at...the inclination of an 'arrived' soul to endlessly indulge in futile talking.

[@milescannon4746]

I would love to hear what these men thought of JK

[@oggfish]

Actually there is another talk right after this discussion with JK and Sheldrake absents. Unfortunately i could not find it again after i`ve seen it 10+ years ago.. Bohm clears things up for Hidley and the guy who does the introduction and talk about what they think about JK.

[@Kobe29261]

Are you kidding Miles - you can figure out what they thought from the questions they asked, isn't it curious how the 4 are supposed to be discussing the subject but 3 eventually end up asking questions to one and in a sense demanding answers? Without saying so much the remaining three make it obvious that they sense that JD had traveled farther and should therefore divulge the 'way' - its beautiful how this emerges when you pay attention

[@Destruction320]

@@Kobe29261 When seeing this, I thought it was either what you wrote or JK's apparent claim to having some answers to these enigmatic questions. The latter would also make sense, as I felt as if at first they were calling him out to prove sth and then they were growing more willing to listen and think about his words as he was progressively proving himself.

[@chrisbennett6260]

@@Kobe29261 yes

[@kooroshrostami27]

Damn, I need to find this.@@oggfish

[@SorrySonny]

I wish i came across this when i was younger, but then would i be able to grasp and understand what he was trying to say?

[@say1city364]

me to i wish the same! but i dont think if i was in teen years i would be interested to watch video like this.im sure of that,but now i love it.😍🙋🙏

[@mariofabrini3304]

Sempre grande unico maestro. Grazie.

[@suhanifree390]

It is very hard to question oneself and stand alone from rest of crowd.

[@albinthevenot]

If people takes time to really listen this kind of videos, rather than Netflix series or social networks...

[@ballboy4543]

すごい話が聴けました、感謝致します。

[@holmermonterrey8399]

💕Wow! very thanks 🙏 💕

[@RajeevKr_90]

I have only word for K is Great.

[@raistCH]

Ce que K aborde est tellement éloigné de ce que l’on croit être la réalité que ces propos demandent beaucoup de temps pour être compris par soi-même, par notre propre découverte de cette réalité.

[@Piruless]

this one was one of the best talks of krishnamurti

[@Ritziey]

the biologist is adamant till the end to avoid the points which are being put forward. it's clear that "freedom from worries" is not the same as simply being careless towards a situation , as he says it can be looked at as fatalism😅

[@amanakeet]

16:46 a true master's mark

[@atamtaki9336]

Those guys are really patient and tolerant with K's incoherent thoughts/questions. They just silently think: Well, let's the man speak and float in his own messy inconsistent mind.

[@42earthling]

I'd say that they are not attentive and therefore wandering in thoughts, if this than that. It shows at the end of this discussion when they come with usual struggles of a family.

[@manojkr9198]

"messy"??! It didn't look messy AT ALL!

[@kellykiernan7785]

Yeah. Not a great example of Krishnamurti's work. It took 18 hours for Allan Anderson to get the whole story out of Krishnamurti, even though he was talking 90% of the time. Now divide his talk time in half because the number of speakers is doubled, assuming he goes at the same rate, it would take 36 hours for him to get his point across. Maybe if they did 32 more of these videos he would have cleared everything up.

[@elmarwagner2683]

He offers them to go together deep into it! And then the video stops. What a tragedy! If I would have been there, I would have said: "Of course! Let's start now." Now I have to find it out for myself.

[@aliquran7535]

This is my television channel ❤

[@URAReaction]

Great conversation 🙏🙏

[@仏教ミニマリストふう]

22:00 観察者と観察されるものについて 36:26 我々の観点は常にこうです “私はそれである” 37:28 観察者が観察されるものなのです 41:21 つまり完全な注意を意識に払うことです “私が”ではなく… 注意と不注意があります 不注意はエネルギーの浪費です 注意はエネルギーです

[@snigdhajain5332]

It's remarkable J Krishnamurti.

[@crystalspace7683]

33:56- then what’s the action? I was expecting a very different answer, but JK said ‘no action’❤

[@MB2010-l5z]

Very profound, I would listen to it for good.

[@aliwissam9672]

48:03 You experience ? yes but .,. BUT YOU ARE THE EXPERIENCE

[@HimanshuJoshi-ir5fl]

Blew my mind completely!

[@absolutelyabsolute5271]

JK what a legend You're ❤️

[@sunsuwandy7317]

Thank for you tranlate Indonesia🙏👌

[@rajneeshparmar537]

Can you please upload the full video?

[@KFoundation]

Thank you for your comment. This is the full talk.

[@sannakallanagendra2766]

Why in this video K referred as religious philosopher?He never identified himself with anything like that.

[@vinothkumar4009]

It's great to Follow the word by word from jk towards the truth

[@princesrinath]

Beyond Genius!!

[@ikaeksen]

Im not my brain, im only my consciousness using my brain and trying to convince my brain that my consciousness allways have right (when i have allways chosen to be kind),,but sometimes brains can do things on their own (automatic reactions, which can be unfortunate for people) Think how many people who are in jail because of their own brains mistakes. If we only had consciousness, none would be in jail -.- (what isnt consciousness in your head is a robot or robots or prograsms, call it what you want. ^^

[@narguellon]

Beautiful.

[@mozzie888]

Krishnagee is still the world teacher 💫👍

[@satyadubey6248]

After getting jiddu ji , I myself became jiddu krishnamurti, ❤

[@arunodaya55515]

I invite anyone to discuss or refute my belief which I made up watching this series of videos of him are : I think we need what we aren't , therefore the need for seurity arises as we are inherently insecure from inside (as said by JK)

[@xdude57]

You aren't many things - do you want to be all of that? ( example - want to rubbish bin collector /killer etc) . Answer is ofcourse, not.

[@iankenney6602]

I feel like a big part of the ongoing misunderstanding keeps going back to a failure to directly address the only real possible argument for separation which is the issue that my point of reference is timeless and instantaneous in the everlasting present and is uniquely my own because everything that happens "to me" is requiring all of my being and is not shared by everything outside myself which I imagine in all objects inorganic and organic there exists a similar point of reference of attention capable of the material of that object. I wonder if I'm missing something or stopping short of thinking it through completely. Maybe, its time to see if I can add everything I can comprehend and more to myself and then be unable to differentiate between the micro and the macro self. I suppose that the individual moment of any body consists of the combined attention of all atoms identified as a part of that body. Glad to see they finally got down from duality to all in one

[@nicolettacuculo9925]

Immenso krisnamurti!

[@lovelyartco]

I ask if just listening to this man will fix the disorder

[@ΑΛΥΌΛ]

i still think that the self is separated from the brain.The self is not fear but is experiencing fear.

[@स्वराजपाटील-थ6भ]

I am still amazed that the narrator calls him "Religious Philosopher" @50th Second.

[@Absolutely-nothing80]

He is the Boss and the Boss is always right.

[@amberlane6479]

JK is NOT a "Boss" at all. He has stated repeatedly in most of his talks that it is "Unintelligent" to obey any authority (with regard to understanding or inquiring into the "self/ego"). JK said that I am merely a psychological-MIRROR that is reflecting EXACTLY WHAT IS taking place in the mind of humanity. When the mind hears or looks at his message, then it hides from itself by making a false description about the messenger being a "Boss" (in order to avoid examining its own "self/ego"). No- -JK. emphatically has always rejected anyone claiming that he is superior. (which a "Boss" pretends to be). JK is only stating facts, precisely. And that in no way makes JK into a "Boss" figure. Ego is the "Internal Boss" that projected that image about JK in order to escape from facing itself as it really is. When a person SEES FACTS and doesn't twist what it detects into something that is more desirable. Then a person is POINTING TO WHAT HAS BEEN SEEN and conveys it to others so that they can LOOK FOR AND BY THEMSELVES. But the ego doesn't want to see itself because it knows that would end the ego. And ego fears its ending based on what it assumes will happen if it does end. It doesn't understand that it would be in the same state of mind of clarity as JK (if it would just look at itself) through the MIRROR that JK holds up during his dialogues. JK is like a flower that gives off its fragrance because that is its natural function. If you don't want to breathe in its scent, (a.k.a. message), then the flower/speaker is not to blame nor is it an authority. The mind's natural function (before it was twisted up and conditioned) is to simply to pay full attention to what it is doing (without trying to control itself). A conditioned reaction attempts to CONTROL anything it doesn't like (either to suppress it, escape it or surrender to its desires). And all of these self-centered conditioned reactions lead to dysfunctional behavior and speech (i.e., insults & compliments - two side of the same coin). And so long as people maintain their egocentric pursuits, then they must increase their psychological ignorant attitudes and behaviors. And that is the messy world that we face daily in our relationships with people around us. NO outside authority can correct or save or improve this situation. Every human can do what JK is talking about, but they CHOOSE to obey the (egotistical) status quo. And so, things in human existence continues to worsen. However, it it's up to each person to face themselves or hide and then it blames others for its suffering. Ego is the cause of its circumstances it finds itself in. And then it refuses to face that absolute fact. Also, JK is NOT debating, he is inquiring, which is not related to a debate (which is based on self-centeredness and superiority). JK is not playing a game. So, for him, it's not an intellectual contest. When people face facts together, then there is NO BOSS! Because everyone sees the same TRUTH. Ego breaks away from facing facts about itself and pretends like JK is a superior being with special powers that the ordinary person cannot do. JK wouldn't have wasted 70 yrs. of talking in dialogues if he thought that he was the only one that can see the ego and that very seeing ends it. I speak from doing and living JK's message. I tested it out (for 4+ decades) in my daily life, and I've risked my life many times to see if seeing my ego as it is, is a reality. If I had failed to see myself accurately, then I would have ended up either damaged or dead. But people are not that serious. They want to play it safe. And then they end up making a highly UNSAFE world like we have today. Protecting the ego begets the world that we are living in. I can navigate this deadly world because. at my core, I am not attacking myself (I face my mind as it responds without any control), and what he says does happen (not a theory but a fact). FACTS are not debatable. Only opinions and emotional ideas can be debated - these are byproducts of the ego. Ego is the greatest enemy to itself and to the world. So, no JK is not the "Boss". He is a mirror accurately reflect what your ego is doing but your ego doesn't want to acknowledge what it's doing. JK"s talks are for the person to explore themselves and to not get mesmerized by the speaker (which never do). JK was a compassionate human being, and that is all. Compassion means to pay full attention to the nature of the ego, which brings about a natural ending. Then order is born once the ego dies, naturally, where there is no comparison, competition or envy or murder.

[@yacovmitchenko1490]

Krishnamurti is somewhat muddled. If, as he says, we are that messy consciousness and nothing more, it wouldn't be possible to recognize it as "messy" in the first place. Any intelligent inquiry would be impossible for that very reason. It's precisely because we have a rational capacity to look at the messiness that we come to recognize it as indeed messiness, or confusion. The recognition of confusion as confusion implies some degree of clarity. Therefore, we are not ONLY confusion. My question to Krishnamurti would be: how do you know you're confused? Is that which sees confusion for what it is itself confused (at that moment)?

[@GiveMeAnOKUsername]

When does he say we are nothing more than messy consciousness?

[@MetalNick]

The key phrase for me was, "The observer is the observed." The point is there doesn't seem to be a clear distinction between a mind contemplating itself, and that mind feeling strong emotions and not actively contemplating itself. What we perceive as being the observer within is actually part of the whole consciousness experience. This is why meditation is challenging and feels counterintuitive.

[@bezonshroff]

Congratulations for the clarity of your observation and the courage to say "K is somewhat muddled" ! The man who taught that thought is the confounding factor for illumination, brought to every discussion a bag of instruments for invoking thought process. In my view there are some serious contradictions in his offerings, as also a few weak observations. Responsible for a Quantity of muddle.

[@InebriatedMonk]

We are not always rational and we not always confused.

[@chrisbennett6260]

you werent paying attention

[@ivanvega1535]

I don't know why, but it looks as if when one of them has something to say he can feel that and turns around and, yes, the person starts making his point. Or it can be that first comes the turning and then they are prompted to speak. Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if JK had that ability to pick up people's intentions, let alone be able to read minds.

[@perothing]

He could 'read' others' intentions but refused to do so because to him it felt like an uninvited intrusion. He only wanted to react to what people shared with him and not on eventually hidden motives. (I read this in 'The years of Awakening' from Mary Lutyens)

[@yogeshvr7457]

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