Jak & Daxter - The Dark Makers - What Are They?

The Dark Makers were once Precursors as explained by the Leader in Jak 3. Due to the exposure of dark eco, those Precursors got mutated and have started war ever since. The Precursors and Dark Makers existed for eons.
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Dark Makers more details: jakanddaxter.wi...

[@VtnVivi]

Also, it is believed that the Dark Makers were once allies to the Metal Heads. Hope you enjoy this, I know it's been a while.

[@jak6744]

Maybe the KG robots will form an allies with them next

[@VtnVivi]

The KG robots are no more except for one from Jak X.

[@tdfern1]

VTNVIVI This gives me a question...Where did the Metal Heads originate from? Were they natural animals native to Jak's planet or were they like a science experiment gone wrong?

[@photonxplasma7101]

Which is funny considering that in Jak 2, the Oracle states that the Metal Heads destroyed the Precursor civilization.

[@s0urcl0ut]

VTNVIVI I have an interesting theory that the Dark Makers were the ones who gave Gol and Maia their powers. To use your quote from this video "the Dark Ones have found your world AGAIN" it could be reference to them turning Gol and Maia into what they are; Using them as pawns to "remake the world using Dark Eco" just as Cyber Erol became their pawn as well. It would also explain their shared goals. Furthermore, the official Jak 3 strategy guide specifically references Gol and Maia, which could be less a hint of their return and more a hint of their origins. And if what daddy pool said below about them creating a "slave race" is true, that would make the Lurkers from TPL a slave race used by Gol and Maia, something their mentors would've taught them! Maybe those Dark Maker troopers are Cyber Lurkers?

[@rorybarber5076]

I think it would have been more thematically appropriate if Gol took the place of Erol in Jak 3. He could have resurfaced after Haven Palace fell and opened the catacombs. A sage corrupted by dark eco commanding the most powerful beings in the universe who fell victim to the same fate. I think that's more interesting than Erol just being alive and a cyborg.

[@VtnVivi]

Agreed that would've been more interesting.

[@Shadethewolfy]

But wait didn't Gol and Maya fall into a big Dark Eco silo? How would he have come back? It's not like Haven Palace was built atop the ruins of Gol and Maya's Precursor Temple base, right?

[@Shadethewolfy]

@Softy Mmm this is very true, and with the Baron harvesting Dark Eco for his experiments, it's likely that they were eventually released from the silo.

[@CorruptInfinityOfficial]

Shadethewolfy it’s stated in game (more than once) In reference material like the websites and written guide that the reservoir of dark eco he fell into was connected to the catacombs. Which means that in jak 3 when Jak re opens them, could have released him out of the catacombs wherever he may be.

[@sephrothguy]

I also like this theory but the problem is in the time displacement, seeing as jak 2 and 3 are way in the future, I don't think it makes sense that Gol could have lived that long. He didn't enter the portal to travel forward so Ii would assume if he didn't doe from eco poisoning, he died from age well before then

[@tvhead7074]

Idea for a video- The Wasteland was once a precursor city. Reason 1- there’s precursor oracles all over the wasteland, probably remnants of the battle between the metals heads and the precursors there, which leads into reason two. Reason 2- Kor said, “I have seen what metal heads do when they take a city, the destruction, the killing, the devouring”. Who’s to say Kor did not lead an attack on the precursor city in his metal head form eons ago? Reason 3- the artifacts you pick up from the sand on artifact collecting missions. These are most likely getting dug up from the sand from wind or something. Forgot to mention after the city was taken by the metal heads everything was left in ruin. Without anyone there to keep it up for eons, sand naturally came over time and made the wasteland. Reason 4- metal heads are found in the desert. These metal heads are most likely offspring dating back to metal heads during the battle. Reason 5- the precursor monk temple. This was the temple for the precursor city and that’s undeniable. Just look how much precursor stuff is in it. Orbs everywhere, giant oracles, mar doors, mar symbols, precursor catacombs, there’s a lot of precursor stuff. There was a war between the precursors living in the city and metal heads that invaded it, so now it’s just kind of there with some metal heads in it, most likely offspring from the metal heads eons ago. Sorry for long comment but I thought this was interesting. I will edit this if I remember anymore reasonings.

[@VtnVivi]

Pretty cool :)

[@insertedgynamehere___969]

There's also the ruins in the desert (which is pretty close to the temple if you think about it)

[@akaniotevanos9861]

Playing Jak and Daxter series is one of the best ways to get into video games, I know that if I ever get any kids, imma have them play this.

[@maximusthewolfreborn2118]

If they were brought in today in a new game to finally make them more connected with the real precursors, the ottsels the whole purple essence around them would be extensions of (purple fur wrapping around the cybernetics on their flesh)that would be interesting art

[@The_Wezt]

i legit think that jak went back in time as an adult and faced the "dark makers" when they first arrived to their planet. as well as that jak's real name is "mar" as the founder of haven city. if they just made a jak 4 where he goes back in time as an adult and does all of this, it would be great.

[@VtnVivi]

If we do get a game like that, I think they wouldn't call it ''4'' it would throw off fans who haven't played Jak for a long time unless Sony expects the ps2 classics to be a refresher.

[@The_Wezt]

maybe they do call it the 4th and swap between past and future. i think that would be nice

[@FantasyFilms100]

Man that would be great we should make a petition for the origal makers of jak to do so cause it seems millions of people want it. Best game ever..

[@K-11609]

While I really like this theory there is only one real issue with it. If Jak were to be the same Mar from the past, that would mean he would be his own ancestor, because he’s the son of Damas who is a descendent of Mar. it just seems a bit too complicated to be possible, but it’s an interesting theory nonetheless

[@xslayerz3093]

@@K-11609 He doesn't have to be his own ancestor. Jak could have went back as Mar and setup the rulers of Haven City to be his ancestry/lineage once Jak/Mar leaves/dies. For example, finds out who Damas' great great grandfather is and places him on the thrown, which secures Damas being King of Haven City later down the lineage. Regardless, I suppose either could be possible. I personally like the former theory rather than Jak is his own grandfather.

[@michaelneumann9706]

I always saw Jak being able to survive the Dark Eco treatments at the beginning of Jak 2, was because of his ability of channeling Eco (as the blue sage pointed out at the end of Jak & Daxter), also why Barron Praxis was told "This one would be different" (as told to him by Veger) But because of so much dark eco, its also why he couldn't channel eco like he did in the first game. But now that he's balanced with Light Eco, I think it'd be cool if he got Eco powers along side his gun upgrades if they ever made a Jak 4. Which is the ONE thing I can say I liked about Lost Frontier, is that they brought back his Eco powers. Also the split monsters could be what happens when green and dark Eco combine, like the monsters you fight during the last boss in Jak & Daxter.

[@minibleau]

Onin said jak woupd be different, praxis says 'that blind soothsayer*

[@_Tzer]

It's also possible he survived not just from his ability to channel eco but he also channeled light eco beforehand that may have also played a part.

[@joshiegTV]

Vivi there is speculation that the green star in the precursor legacy are the dark makers making their way to earth light years away. As soon as Jak and the gang went through the portal to the future. The star got closer and closer.

[@VtnVivi]

I feel like I've heard this one before!

[@cruzgonzalez7061]

Not possible, since the dark maker ship is purple.

[@joshiegTV]

Cruz Gonzalez it could be before they were corrupted by dark eco

[@The_Wezt]

or it is just that the light looks different from far away, you never know

[@briancooley8777]

Or maybe it was the precursors leaving

[@MrScaryPasta]

I have a theory about Dark Echo. I believe there are two variants of Dark Echo. First we have purified Dark Echo- hence Daxter's transformation into a Precursor. As well as the Dark Echo in the blood of Metal Heads. Then we have Manufactured Dark Echo- which is echo that has been refined into a more powerful malleable variant. This is where Dark Jak and Dark Makers come in. They were created from and corrupted by this variant of Dark Echo they were exposed to. We also see this as evidenced by Jak 2 and 3 as well as Jak And Daxter The Lost Frontier. We see for ourselves how this Dark Echo corrupts and twists and destroys all it touches- plants, humans, hybrids, vehicles, etc. For example Dark Jak was created after Baron Praxis tried to extract and corrupt Jak's echo powers. In the end Jak's powers allowed him to live and evolve into a more powerful but unstable form. Which is why he received help to control and harness his new abilities without dying painfully. We see Metal Heads feeding on and drinking Dark Echo as evidenced by the raid on their nest in Jak 2. When a Metal Head dies they leave behind Skull Gems and the occasional echo orbs. We also see them evolve over time to shoots beams and toxic gasses from their bodies. Most likely this is the Dark Echo they excrete as a defensive and offensive mechanism. Lastly in Jak And Daxter The Lost Frontier the citizens of Aeropa and their king. We see them as darker more powerful and twisted versions of Dark Jak. But these Dark Warriors are much more unstable and most likely dying due to the process of their transformation. This was something the Dark Echo sage wanted to avoid, but was forced to due. When Daxter transforms into Dark Daxter, he like Jak is spared his own destruction due to his special echo abilities as well. Daxter becomes a Precursor due to his transformation. This is why Daxter seems smarter and ingenuitive as the games progress. He also seems to have knowledge of how certain echo works, despite him not knowing before. Daxter also seems to have the ability to absorb and harness echo variants much like Jak. Most likely due to his Precursor DNA. When Daxter is transformed he becomes a Dark Maker, but not fully. He becomes like Jak and retains his personality.

[@andreapareti324]

I always thought they were simply "dark ottsels", just like normal Precursors are normal ottsels. The robots we fight in Jak 3 kind of look like classic Precursor stuff corrupted (like you noted, the heads are really similar). As for the "found the world again" part, they were likely banished in the past/the ottsels managed to somehow make them run away or warp them away, or maybe they left the planet of their own accord after the split with the normal ottsels. The split could have possibly happened due to how far the Dark Precursors wanted to use Dark Eco compared to the normal ones, and that could have possibly corrupted them. There might even be more than one planet with Precursors on it, and the Dark Makers might be in space and they try to take these planets back, one by one.

[@1oddentity]

9:16 when the otsel tells jak that he's the greatest warrior, it leads me to believe that jak and mar are 2 different people

[@_NutcasE_]

They have to be, either that or Jak is his own grandfather. The precursor tech also identifies him as Heir of mar, not as mar. Jak 3 plot went alot of places and jak x ignored alot of it. Like Ashelin suddenly being the love interest, otzels suddenly being precursors(as a gag mind you) after Jak 2 we saw a precursor of light birthing from an egg. And Ashelin implying that Jak is the Mar. That alone would Imply that Jak and Daxters story is one big time paradox loop. Within a paradox loop. Makes sense why none of the games post Jak 3 address the story since they broke their own plot and made it chaotically paradoxical. To make it work as Jak 2 intended you would need to ignore majority of Jak 3 plotpoints.

[@vyperx8517]

This franchise was my obsession in my youth. It keeps me awake at night connecting the series. The quote "there would be more adventures in the future, or the past" implys jak or Mar goes back to the time of precursor legacy to create the Haven City or the city of Mar. I also question, who is Daxter, his origin literally just comes out of nowhere. Does he not have a caretaker is precursor legacy? Why is nobody bothered by his ocelot appearance in any of the games? Would jak be considered the white eco sage? Also the statues in Mar's tomb, there are 3 older male statues, are these the precursors or the 3 sages from precursors legacy?

[@pejnismiggle]

I don't think the troopers are per say the Dark Makers themselves, but more like a Star Wars situation where Darth Sidious stays tucked away from the public eye, but has a mass army of Storm Troopers. Because don't forget, when you kill these dark troopers, they don't explode and crumble like killing a robot enemy. They grunt and evaporate into airborne Eco like all living/breathing enemies.

[@VtnVivi]

interesting.

[@michaeljude2105]

I think those soldier's where cyborgs, they looked biomechanical. So it is a possibility that where controlled. Now as for the what the Dark Makers look like, didn't Erol call the terraformers Dark Makers. He said, while looking at the terraformers "All of these Dark Makers at my command". I find very interesting.

[@VtnVivi]

Hmm interesting yes. Perhaps he was delusional? Thinking all the power he would gain, he would use it against them? The terraformers are simply their tech though. Since Errol worked for them, they intentionally would take orders from him, to prove their ''loyalty''? Hence the dark makers ''at my command''.

[@elin111]

I think the Dark Makers were never fully present, when Jak gets into the ship it was mostly empty besides the Terraformers and troopers. If the theory is that troppers are remote controlled then maybe the whole ship also wcould be.

[@MythicSuns]

What's interesting is that it's implied that there were failed attempts at using dark eco on a subject (namely prisoners) in Jak II. One of the earliest lines you hear from Erol whilst Jak is being injected with Dark Eco is "I fear the Dark Warrior program has failed". And you're spot on about Daxter being a rare case; not least because the Precursor leader described Daxter as being blessed. If I had to make a rough estimate I'd say the chances of dark eco turning someone into a precursor instead of an abomination are about a million to one, but that's just a rough estimate. As for Dark Daxter, I honestly think that Lost Frontier was nothing more than a bunch of thrown away concepts that Naughty Dog didn't want to use anymore, it's even mentioned in the Naughty Dog artbook that Dark Daxter was originally going to be a character in Jak II until they scrapped the idea.

[@zeratul____1228]

I had a few thoughts on this video: My first thought is about the abundance of Dark Eco in Jak 1, my thought is that they used it as a fuel source. Dark Eco has been shown to be much more powerful than normal Eco which would make it far more optimal for use as fuel/power source and even make weapons more deadly than they already were. In Jak 3 we even see a Precursor weapon being charged by Light Eco and Dark Eco. Now that I think about it Light Eco was probably created as a "cleaner" source of energy since there are soo many dangers to utilizing Dark Eco and why it is much rarer than any other Eco as it was only a recent development in their culture so they stored the unused Dark Eco in large silos and used Light Eco instead. 2nd is how the Dark Makers are said to be returning, this could be referring to an event that happened prior to the first Jak and Daxter as both sides went to war with one another but the Otsels managed to beat them, or it is the reason the world was thrown into desolation by the time of Jak 2. The Dark Makers could have returned and destroyed much of the world but were fought off by the Precursors or maybe even Mar himself fought them off. 3rd Did the Dark Precursors create the metal heads? They did not exist in the first game which makes me think that they did return after Jak went through time rather than long before the 1st games events. This would make so that when the Dark Makers were fought off they left behind the Metal Heads to hopefully exterminate the planet for them or keep the pressure on the inhabitants until they returned with reinforcements. 4th, the Precursors are clearly a space dwelling species but is the planet Jak lives on their place of origin or did the Precursors originate home from a world far from Jaks one? How far expanded are they in the system/galaxy/universe?

[@VtnVivi]

3. The metal heads had their own leader Metal Kor, it's believed they were once allies. The metal bugs also existed eons ago. 4. Since the precursors created the world, I do not think they are from Jak's planet, they created it. They are from an unknown place.

[@zeratul____1228]

But there is still a chance the Dark Makers did create them as a biological weapon against the Precursors. In jak 3 Erol says "Even the Metal Heads have their biological weakness, but me Im pure metal" now i know they are called Metal Heads because they do have metal armour that grows from their bodies but that doesn't sound like something a natural creature would evolve over time. Then there is also the fact that the Metal Heads have existed for a long time and yet we dont see any evidence of them in the first game.Now this could mean that they were sealed underground but escaped some time after Jak left, or the Dark Makers returned with a fresh more lethal batch of them. Heres what Im thinking, prior to the first game is the war with the Dark Makers and Precursors, as the war goes on the Dark Makers created the first of the Metal Heads but were swiftly defeated along with the Makers running off world. Fast forward and Jak and the gang have gone through time when the second invasion occurs but with upgraded Metal Heads and a new intelligent variant; Metal Kor, to lead the horde. Once again the Dark Makers are fought off but the Metal Heads are still on a rampage and Haven city is formed to protect civilians. Now in the events of Jak 2 Metal Kors only goal is to destroy the last of the Precursor "eggs", which was programed into him by the Dark Makers along with a secondary directive to destroy all of the inhabitants.

[@s0urcl0ut]

Jericho Strayker Very comprehensive theory, I liked it. But i did find a few flaws: Firstly, we see the first Metalheads released via the Rift Gate, Jak and crew unwittingly unleashed them on the world at the start of Jak 2. Secondly, in Jak 2, the oracle in the tomb of Mar calls the Metalheads "Hora Quan", referring to them by their ancient name as they've existed almost as long as the Precursors. Their existence for this long would prove their purpose is ultimately greater than capturing the last Precursor Stone/Egg and destroying Jak's world. Thirdly, the Metalheads reproduce quickly, given their tendency to infest and destroy, it would seem unlikely that the Dark Makers would create them out of fear they would be overrun by their creations. Finally, if they had created them, what is the purpose of the Day Star, the Dark Makers' ship full of Terraformers? If they can create Metalheads at will, they should just bombard the planet with a fresh colony of them "Zerg Rush" style, seeing as Haven city has nearly fallen already. It seems like overkill if that's the case lol, especially since they expose their own troops and machines to danger instead of a fresh brood of Metalheads. If you can refute these points, I will be pleasantly impressed.

[@zeratul____1228]

Actually all of your points make sense but I can give an answer for the last one. The reason the Dark Maker ship is full of terraformers could be because they may have been expecting the planet to be desolate and any of the local inhabitants to be killed, so they were coming to terraform the planet to suit their needs which it kinda was.....they weren't expecting the Eco cannon or the inhabitants to be as resilient as they were however. Also we have already seen that the terraformers are actually quite vulnerable despite their size. Primitive combustion rounds were able to shred through....whatever those purple glowing things were on the legs. So here is what I think they do: The Dark Makers unleash the Metal heads upon a world to whittle down the inhabitants if not completely destroy them so they can come back at a later date to then colonise the planet using their terraformers. They don't bring in a fresh batch because the previous one is usually enough.

[@Palafico3]

I think the Dark Makers appearance is meant to be highly diverse, dark eco is naturally unstable and mutates what it comes into contact with. The Dark Makers were ottsels, yes, but they took their use of dark eco too far, becoming dependent on it while at the same time reshaping themselves into "better" forms, eventually melding themselves with technology into a massive, infectious hive. They saw themselves as weak and unfulfilled, and so turned to illicit means of obtaining that raw power. They are definitely Alien inspired with their horrendous drive to kill and replace with themselves, plus all the awesome theme musics and biomechanical motifs. It's strange how all their wires seem to be sprouting like roots, I imagine the Terraformers would eliminate large ground obstacles along with the Walkers, then seed the ground with those Reproductive Pods from the forest mission. Eventually they form a network of tendrils that start to blanket the ground and root itself, mutating everything it spreads to with dark eco. Maybe even the terraformers will root themselves as nexus centers once enough ground is covered.

[@_Tzer]

Keep in mind the thing that errol was trying to wake up was just bigger dark makers that giant spider thing is a dark maker.

[@Flesh_Wizard]

If there's a Jak IV, and there's anything Dark Maker related, I'd love it to be Giger inspired

[@dakotapoole4293]

I wanted Gol & Maya to return in Jak 3, but I would love a Jak 4 where Gol, Maya and the real dark precursors team up. They could lead whats left of the medal heads as well. I'd honestly be happy with ant Jak 4. I do think those were just animated dark precursors robots.

[@VtnVivi]

Gol, Maia and leader of dark makers working together? Sign me up!

[@diggledwarf]

Well the dar nakers ship blew up mid air in the game so they would have to be controlling them from far far away if they are robots or from right inside as like a suit. The ship was gone while the dark makers were still roaming around. They could just be autonomous robots

[@UnknownSovereignty]

You know I always thought they we're a biomechanical life form, given how they are pretty much the exact opposite of the precursors themselves. It's sad we will probably never know anymore lore when it comes to the dark markers, metal heads and Mar/Jak's time travel adventures. And if I had to a be honest I don't even know if a release of anything new would be true to the story in mid back in those days.

[@joegriffin7914]

I think that the troopers are organisms made by the dark makers, the blueish parts are their actual flesh and the purple parts are armour. I don't think that they are the actual dark makers because, the dark makers are supposed to be the most powerful beings in the universe but the troopers can be killed with a few bullets or even a spin kick or two, not very powerful if you ask me XD

[@3v068]

Considering Daxter changes every time he has touched Dark Eco and the fact that Maya used dark eco to keep her young figure as noted in canonical lore released in books, Its safe to say that it may be the actual precursor Otsels.If it isn't, its entirely plausible that the dark makers and precursors once took very different forms and changed into what they are.

[@SC-eu3ko]

My headcanon was always that the Dark Makers were ashamed of being cute little ottsels and turned themselves into cyborgs that more closely resembled how the rest of the universe perceived the Precursors. So I figure the troopers and hornets are mostly machines but with some Precursor organs (namely their brains) and blood remaining in order to keep their innate control over eco.

[@Truewing777]

My opinion is that these troopers were the dark makers.. and that dark eco is unpredictable.. having defeated the troops does not mean their reinforcements would not multiply.. I was kind of let down by the precursors being otzels but at the same time I found it hilarious In my mind they were going to look more like their monuments.. but hey, Im happy with what we got.. This series will go down as one of the greatest of all time

[@Eric_Cartman1]

My theory for Jak being able to survive the dark ego ingestions is because he was exposed to all the other types of ego back in the Precursor Legacy and it probably made him capable of surviving as he was capable of using the abilities that certain types of ego offered him.

[@VtnVivi]

I see!

[@andrewserra5981]

Make sense especially since jak was touched by light eco in the last boss fight of precursor legacy

[@fenrirgamer3341]

They are my Favorit in the Game and i wish thre coming back in jak 4

[@HORIXEN8279]

I thought the dark makers were just precursors that made a connection to dark eco

[@Templarfreak]

prolly understood well enough at this point, but from my understanding dark eco's purpose seemed to have been to cause rapid mutation to very quickly speed up the process of evolution in order to populate planets that the precursors terraformed with new life.

[@MythicSuns]

I have a feeling the reason why the dark makers look nothing like the Ottsels is purely because the story was a little bit rushed, BUT at the same time even if that is the case, there are ways to make it work (in other words, the story was rushed but not TOO rushed). In my head I'm imagining that the dark makers could be based on lesser evolved versions of the Ottsels. Keep in mind that the animal kingdom in the Jak series is very odd and full of hybrid animals, meaning that the Ottsels may have once been very VERY different animals.

[@GIMPY489]

Imagine it being like Doom Eternal Ancient Gods, The Dark Makers were the actual Precursors and The Ottsels are the ones who overthrew them, and claimed to be the gods of Jak and Daxter’s universe.

[@neptuneplaneptune3367]

Personly I acually belive the Dark Makers are LONG gone and all thats left of them is there tech. Thats why we never see any of them, the Ship is simply functioning on automatet systems with Errol in control

[@fallencorporal]

Otzels were in the business of world making so with the precedence of being engineers, dark makers would have been assigned as research and development group for the utilization of dark eco but if dark eco was a byproduct of combining eco then it might be that their corruption was unintended. If dark eco had properties already without needing combining, it might have been the perfect eco for use as a standalone product; blue eco harneses motion, yellow power, and green vitality. Dark and white aren't super clear but clearly eco powers technology and is capable of being utilized to degrees of necessary complexity. Dark eco is clearly a natural resource that requires excavation retaining enough value to the city of Mar Haven as a resource worthy of negotiating as a bargaining material and power source it'd be no surprise to know the precursors implemented it in a similar fashion. The only parallel I can glean is it'd be like injecting someone with super gasoline expecting a super soldiers to result without getting horribly ill or dying.

[@_Tzer]

it's implied that the things errol was trying to wake up are the dark makers as jak directly says he is trying to "wake the dark makers up" when you are there, aka that giant spider monster thing he uses that is a single one talk about a entire shift in form from ottsel to well that. though i fully think the dark makers are using him and not the other way around judging from his actions and words. A really notable example is he calls him a dark eco freak in jak 2 while he calls him a eco freak in jak 3 notice the lack of the word dark

[@Yahavogdan]

9:15 These scene still gives me hope for jak 4 someday...

[@VtnVivi]

Aww :)

[@cherrypoptart2001]

I miss this trilogy. Jak and daxter, spyro, battlefront2 was the best i could of asked for as a child with a ps2

[@dextergrif1052]

Your videos have gotten me back into the Jak and Daxter series as well as Ratchet and Clank. I just 100%ed Precursor Legacy on the PS3 and got the platinum trophy. I don’t think I’m going to do the same for 2 and 3, but I will play through them again.

[@VtnVivi]

Awesome :D

[@martinbarrettgamer4333]

Yeah but dark daxter doesn't count, and the jak and daxter the lost frontier doesn't count either, high impact games fuck that game up. you keep bringing up dark daxter when in Jak3 the leader said if he touch dark eco he could turn into the dark maker not no dark monster.

[@elin111]

Sadly it is considered canon for as much as everyone wants to forget it ever happened.

[@michaeljude2105]

I was just using Dark Dexter for reference. And the High Impact games (as Gexup once said when he still had his channel) are watered down versions compared to the original's. And I don't see The Lost Frontier canon anyway.

[@Adcts]

As much as I hate the game it does seem to be canon.

[@anubishd439]

Yeah when the ottsel leader said “help win this war” that pretty much confirmed that there are more dark makers

[@VtnVivi]

Yup and who is their leader?

[@hevendor958]

*the world may never know*

[@richardthang5266]

@@hevendor958What if the black ooze from the comic Ladybug and Cat Noir is the Dark Eco that turns people into monsters much like the Akumas in the TV show? That’s going to be a good crossover for Jak and Daxter's Miraculous Ladybug.

[@extremelyboredtatsumaki.495]

It could be just that the Dark Makers we see are just Battle Suits/Mechs/Drones that the Ottsels pilot from within, and Dark Eco made them fuse with these suits.

[@xem2476]

Holy moly! A Jak & Daxter video! Vivi you legend

[@RC-xr5sk]

They should make a jak 4 where say a disturbance in the time line occurs and jak and daxter go back in time to the ancient times or mar's time.

[@VtnVivi]

Hmm.... Interesting!

[@TheJesperBjorke]

What if the Dark Makers are responsible for what happened between Jak 1 and 2. And that the precursors at 9:29 are talking about going back in time to the first encounter with the dark makers? Since they said at 3:13 that they have found us again.

[@VtnVivi]

The metal heads caused destruction to Sandover. The way I see it is, the dark makers simply found them again after all this time. As for the last scene from 3, uhm.... it could be Mar related now that I think about it.

[@jinxvattic8868]

I believe the dark eco kinda needed to be on the planet. I think it's slightly hinted that colored eco is forged from dark eco. Turning chaotic dark eco into usable colored eco. And light eco is just the four colored ecos put together. I mean, it would make sense to gather dark eco into pools tobe processed.

[@giorgosgan4493]

I was so terrified by the Dark Makers back in the day.I was trying to pass the missions where they get involved like my life depends on it,i was so nervous.

[@VtnVivi]

:O

[@AndysTake]

We desperately need more Jak and Daxter in our lives 😭 also, which version of Jak 3 did you record here? It looks very smooth!

[@VtnVivi]

The collection on PS3 I believe.

[@DrPabloMD]

Knowing franchise tropes, I'm sure they were going to be evil ottsels. Maybe like Daxter in the Lost Frontier, some Precursor ottsels were corrupted by the dark eco, transforming them. The Precursors might not have ever experienced something like this before, and so grew a fear of the dark eco and its mysteries.

[@VtnVivi]

Thanks for watching!

[@arthuralam1000]

I think the dark makers are just like Dark Daxter. These creatures that we saw in Jak 3 are just minions, living weapons.

[@VtnVivi]

So basically we haven't seen their leaders ever.

[@untitledgem7375]

I know this doesn't have much to do with the video, but I just want to say that as a kid I was very disappointed when I got to misty island and fell into the same pool as daxter did in the intro and found out it didn't turn jak into an ottsel as well

[@VtnVivi]

:(

[@NotOrdinaryInGames]

How did Er(r)ol turn into a cyborg? The same way Robocop did.

[@VtnVivi]

WOAH

[@Danosauruscrecks]

My bet is they are like gol and Mia if they were successful, fully, perfectly combined with dark eco. Maybe they just go planets with dark eco and try to consume it or use it to create things.

[@venrakdrake]

The fact that most dark maker enemies are somewhat mechanical/robotic reminds me of how the Combine are from the Half Life series, half mechanical half organic.

[@VongolaXZax]

So many questions, plus now do I realize you were playing Jak 3 background music!

[@infiniumdankstar4562]

Universe is order from chaos. From the empty black void to the starlit place we know today. Absolute order weaved from the chaos of uncertainty. Dark echo carries chaos and unpredictability in is pulse.

[@elin111]

Completely unrelated but like to think Errol did die in that crash and but his conciousness survived because of the Dark Eco and it ended up in a KG Deathbot. He's very clearly fully mechanical when he appears on screen, the face looks more like a mask.

[@VtnVivi]

This is an interesting topic :)

[@huntermounce836]

What if the dark soldier where living organisms but they had dark body armor ?

[@VtnVivi]

Possible.

[@checkmateendgamealchemix8344]

Having played all of the jak & daxter games,I can confirm that the enemies you have faced must be robots. As for the Metal Heads,they were created,in my personal theory,as living weapons for the Dark Makers. (A horrible,yet oddly effective Idea,considering how they ravaged Jak's world.only two cities remained on their planet in the main trilogy.) I have studied their concept art,looked at their capabilities, ran the numbers, and the only logical conclusion is that the Dark Makers that yo face are robots,robots that are miniatures of the larger Precursor robots that we know. With some of the weapons removed due to technical issues. As for the robot's grunts and whatnot,VR piloting. Jak used it to pilot that one Dark Robot during the mission where you destroy the ship's shield generator.The precursors themselves use avatars usually to interact with other races,so it stands to reason that the Dark Makers do the same. As for what they look like,that's as mysterious as the connection between Light & dark Eco.

[@VtnVivi]

Awesome breakdown!

[@michaeljude2105]

I would like to see Jak 4. I really hope (and other people have shown it too) the Dark Makers come back but not only that but to have Gol and Maria too. Samos said the dark eco probability destroyed them, so there's still a possibility there still alive but mutated like Daxter was in The Lost Frontier. They escape the silo to go to Sandover Village and after Jak and the others enter the rift ring they enter it too but not in Haven City but some unknown location hiding, and finding out what to do next. And at one point to have Gol and Maria team up with the Dark Makers. Imagine just to have Jak and Daxter fight in the Dark Wars against Gol, Maria and the Dark Makers

[@VtnVivi]

According to ND, Gol and Maia could have been stuck deep within the catacombs so they could come back. Dark eco perhaps preserved them enough to last until Jak 2-3's timeline. They for sure are mutated at this point or maybe not seeing how Gol studied Dark Eco.

[@tabreezsiddique]

0:14 - A video about the Dark Makers? I'm all up for this! :) 0:39 - Which confirms that Jak & Daxter: The Lost Frontier is 1000% non cannon! ;) 1:24 - They clearly did not understod what the logic of dark eco is suppose to be. :P 1:55 - I somehow got the idea just by playing the 2nd game. 2:40 - And ally with the dark makers. 3:23 - "The past and the future collide"? Do you think they were referring to how the 3rd game had a mix of the light hearted tone of the 1st game with the dark tone of the 2nd? 4:15 - So who should we believe? :/ 5:37 - Which wasn't as utilised as much as it should've. :/ 6:10 - If it was confirmed in the 3rd game then I believe so. 7:19 - So was Tim but that doesn't count because he's from Lost Frontier. :P 7:51 - They look like poor looking grunts! Those faces! XD 8:57 - With his cybernetic self. 9:24 - Too bad we weren't given any more games by them. :( 9:31 - Oh yeah! Maybe that could've meant that it was over since he said the past! 9:44 - I personally believe so. 10:01 - Always happy to watch. :)

[@VtnVivi]

''The past and the future collide'' I took it more as the threat from the past has come again.

[@tabreezsiddique]

VTNVIVI the past has come again? How so? 😟

[@VtnVivi]

I meant that the threat they had in the past came back as in the dark makers.

[@tabreezsiddique]

VTNVIVI oh! OK! Would've been a great reference to how this game balances the light hearted feel of the 1st game with the darkness of the story of the 2nd game. 😇+😈=✅

[@kidprime6863]

I always thought the Dark Maker were horribly mutated Ottsel cyborgs. And I like to believe the DayStar was not THE Dark Maker ship but A Dark Maker ship. It was one of many.

[@stefanloncar6868]

They're like Jak and Daxter version of Spider-Man's Venom

[@VtnVivi]

Hmm.. Never thought of that one :P

[@Kayjoir]

I think dark eco is eco in it's raw form. The four colored eco is when dark eco is refined into it's components. Light eco is the complete refined form, since we see in the first game light eco is made by merging the four colored forms of eco. That's just my theory.

[@VtnVivi]

Not bad :)

[@Kayjoir]

@@VtnVivi Thanks😊. If I had to guess I think dark eco is a reflection of the Ottsel's primal selves. Maybe using dark eco causes someone to tap into their primal heritage. I wonder if Gol looked so weak because he overuse dark eco and after years of pushing his body too far, it left him in such a feeble state. Kind of like how some steroids destroy the body after prolonged use. Maybe Mia was in better shape because she learned from her brother's mistake and modified her intake.

[@Kayjoir]

@@VtnVivi There's something else I've wondered. Did the Sages choose the Eco that correlated with their personalities or did their personalities change to become more in line with the Eco they studied. Just a thought. The thought came to me because how Jak's stance and personality seems to change depending on whether he's channeling light or dark eco. For instant dark Jak is hunched over almost on all fours almost like an animal on the prowl while light Jak stands fully upright in a dignified. fashion

[@mayhem4life127]

Love that you cover my two favorite game series of all time jak. And sly Cooper! 👏🙏✊🤘💪✌👂🗣 awesome stuff Vivi

[@VtnVivi]

I appreciate the support!

[@mayhem4life127]

VTNVIVI I appreciate the reply I'll be waiting for the next video. My good man c; 😂

[@daddypool4787]

I think the dark Troopers are either some type of precursor robot corrupted by dark eco or a slave race that the dark ones corrupted with dark eco. As for why there is dark Eco on Jax planet( by the way what is it called) the precursors said that the dark ones found their planet again so that means they must have fought on the planet that would be really cool if in another game Jack and the game went to any ancient Battlefield between the precursors and dark ones

[@Mailed-Knight]

I always assumed the Dark Troopers were battle suits that the Dark One Precursors wore.

[@VtnVivi]

Hmm... Dark Makers making slaves? Never thought of that one, it could be.

[@s0urcl0ut]

daddy pool I believe Gol and Maia were trained by the Dark Makers and that the slave race you mentioned are Cyber Lurkers inside the trooper suits. My full argument on the topic can be found in VTNVIVI's pinned comment up top.

[@kronos5850]

I'm thinking the Dark Ones were supposed to be militarized Precursors, which would be why Dark Eco was created. But instead of serving the higher up Precursors, the Dark Ones attempted a coup detat, which failed and the Precursors drove them away as much as they could... until they lost control

[@photonxplasma7101]

Subscribed! I can't get enough of Jak and Daxter stuff!

[@VtnVivi]

Thank you so much!

[@jak6744]

I think the dark makers have a master hiddening somewhere just like the metal heads did in Jak 2. And great video D: like always.😎🍸

[@VtnVivi]

The fact that they always find a way to return tells me their leader is still out there right? And thanks :)

[@Quinyel]

Dark Eco is basically like Protodermis from Bionicle: A Deus Ex Machina Substance either strenghtening or destroying you, depending on it's mood.

[@NotOrdinaryInGames]

Allow me to summarize (as if you asked). The DAWK MAEKERZ wanted to "further improve themselves", become EVEN MOAR POWERFUL. And you seen the result. It is an old trope: if you pursue more power, much more than you need, power for power's sake, you get evil and scary. And please don't remind me of Lost Frontier. The Dark Daxter™ (©Sony) shit was not explained at all, my soul is still deeply offended.

[@VtnVivi]

Oki doki.

[@somedudewatchintv5297]

4:15 I took this to mean there were other more powerful races, not necessarily the dark makers specifically.

[@jacobwallace6337]

jak is a precursor, dax is a dark maker

[@Manuelx98.]

What if the precursor ottsel due to the exposure to dark eco transformed in something like dark daxter in Lost Frontier but permanently, losing control and becoming the dark makers we know, and those troopers are just biomechanical creatures controlled by them remotely like Jak did with the Dark Maker bot in Jak 3?

[@VtnVivi]

Could be, interesting :)

[@Thromnabular]

Let's not forgot all the small more portable sized containers of dark eco the precursors left laying around everywhere in the precursor legacy (which could have been conceivably carried by human sized people not ottsels). It seems clear to me that the precursors likely used dark eco both for energy production as well as for its destructive potential (dark eco WMDs seem likely, potentially giving rise to the dark makers accidentally)

[@lupustempestas5731]

When one of the three precursors said: "or was it in the past?" I immediately thought about the moment when the statue said: "the darkmakers found your planet again". I think that they were planning on going back to the past to fight and stop the first war with the dark makers 🤔

[@tailedgates9]

Love your Jak videos. ^_^ Also, I think you're right, the troopers seem more like just robots than the actual Dark Makers. The actual Dark Makers may still be hiding elsewhere.

[@VtnVivi]

:D

[@MiniZurkon8008]

i think that the ottsels control those robots and wen they came in contact with dark eco they becamed one with the robot suit

[@VtnVivi]

Possibility, but not all of them.

[@austindaugherty5933]

In jak and Daxter 1 I believe one of the oracles said this is the fourth time they have watched and waited for the true hero to return and onin also said that she met jak at least in 1 other timeline

[@ZenkuTheories]

This is sorta unrelated and I maybe looking too much into it, but what did the Precursors mean when they told Jak "Your return?" it was the first time Jak had ever entered the temple. Also now that I think about it, weren't alot of things inside the temple oddly only accessible through either Jak's powers or his seal?

[@VtnVivi]

Return I think they meant his old self. He grew up in Sandover and came back to the future hence they meet again. I also was wondering about that actually. That seal was the seal of Mar, a simple key which allowed Jak to access areas created by Mar. That key was made of precursor metal which implies Mar was their great ally.

[@TheOnceAndFutureKing]

That scene at 4:20 could have been just for comedy, too.

[@VtnVivi]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh..........

[@Ser_Matticus]

I always had this thought the Dark Makers are super mutated and corrupted ottsels, to the point their bodies are near useless, so they are built into the bio-mechanical machines designed in a twisted replica of the precursor robot design.

[@TheComicCorvette]

You know...These debates and theories are kind of a pain wouldn't you say? Are you ready for me to blow your mind and save you all trouble of piecing stuff together? After Jak 1, the precursor door at the end contained some echo that put everyone present into a crazy fever dream that was the next 4 games. Thank you. I'll be here all week. With these games, this is very very possible. Isn't it sad that we have that few answers regarding what actually happened in this game.

[@jacobweatherford4696]

If i remember right part of what allowed jak to survive was his ability to channel eco which helped him not die or mutate like others did

[@VtnVivi]

Yes light eco in the first game!

[@jacobweatherford4696]

@@VtnVivi i guess he could channel the dark eco aswell as he did light eco though it seems the dark eco kinda hurt alot.

[@warhammernerd52Daxx-Lorenzo898]

I'd actually want to see more of this franchise before I chime in with any theories: speaking of franchise: Could you possibly look into the Oddworld series? It's a personal favorite

[@thetruegamer6320]

Nice job you make good videos and give good thoughts and brief explanation man

[@VtnVivi]

Glad you enjoy it thanks!

[@sergiohdz9463]

Love your jak videos

[@VtnVivi]

Thank you so much :D

[@fishdish9835]

Dark Eco is the byproduct of creating eco. Basically, it is like separating the acid and base of a neutral substance. You can combine them back to neutralize them. But that prevents you from using their parts for other things. A very loose comparison divorced from reality, but I think I made my case.

[@RastamanOSRS]

missed ur videos brother always happy to see a new one in my sub box

[@tdfern1]

There could have been game that give a bit more informations about these Precursors & the Dark Makers and where they came from?

[@VtnVivi]

I know right!

[@Faheemsham]

If there was red,green,blue and dark eco sages then was there a light eco sage?

[@VtnVivi]

I'd imagine Keira's mother was a light sage :P

[@isauldron4337]

I thought the dark makers "spoilers" Were cyborgs that's why errol "got along" with them

[@VtnVivi]

It's up for debate, it was never made clear.

[@Thromnabular]

In my head cannon, which isn't in any way supported by official lore, is that the precursors actually look like the human/elves and are the ancestors of Jak's race (which explains why some can channel eco and are the appropriate size for precursor technology) And as for the precursor statues (which dark makers look similar too) it makes sense to me If that's actually some sort of cybernetic space suit/armor and the dark makers have a similar dark eco version that they wear. This is all working under the assumption that the ottsels are lying and are just posing as precursors. Which I strongly believe is the only logical solution to the disconnect between the statues, the look of the dark makers, and the design of the precursor technology to be used by human sized people. (Also the precursor egg guy looks like jaks race (which again doesn't make sense if precursors are ottsels))

[@tyke2829]

The precursor egg guy was just a hologram the precursors made since they didn’t want their identity to be shown. The hologram even appears in Jak 3

[@steamworks3823]

love me some jak and daxter

[@primordial-chaos00]

Maybe the jak and daxter game, will take place in the past and see when and how the dark makers were created, and see the history of eco and where It originated from and see jak ancestors or mars

[@VtnVivi]

A game covering more background would be cool, but ND doesn't seem to want to do so.

[@EpicLonelyRussian]

Please keep doing Jak videos

[@VtnVivi]

I appreciate the support!

[@jUppers]

love their design, sad we havent seen more of them or gone deeper into their lore

[@JediOttselWaluigikid115]

@VtnVivi my theory is that the dark makers don’t resemble their precursor counterparts because of their over use of dark eco, and perhaps are in a similar situation to the keepers and the apothecons (black ops 3). To give context for VtnVivi and those who don’t know in black ops 3 zombie Lore in the beginning there were two beings Dr.Monty and The Shadow Man they created the keepers who were a powerful race that created a device called the summoning key, which allowed them to hop into different universes but in doing so their home universe called Agatha began to crack allowing the void know as the either to seep in and corrupt some of the keepers and The Shadow Man. A Great War was fought Between Dr.Monty and keepers and The Shadow Man and the apothecons. The keepers won banishing The Shadow Man and the apothecons to the either but not before the apothecons made structures on different worlds in different universes to one day help them escape the either. Having been trapped in the either for so long the apothecons now resemble little of their keeper selves if any at all.

[@dextergrif1052]

I like that you have to give a disclaimer whenever you bring up The Lost Frontier because so many people hate it. I’m more in the boat of just being indifferent towards that game.

[@jazzimel]

They look like armored versions of dark eco splitters, so maybe they're similar beings? Look at the parts without the dark precursor metal, they're the same dark blue color. Probably some kinda biomechanical soldier similar to a splitter.

[@5T4T10NDR4GON]

Am I the only one who was scared by the dark makers when they first appeared

[@VtnVivi]

Maybe!

[@soragamma25]

Not sure if this was said yet, but what if gol and Mia ARE the dark eco rulers? Samos mentioned that he THINKS the dark eco destroyed them, even going down to probably, we know that gol was an expert with dark eco but never really getting a feel how much of an expert he was, he even knew about light eco but didn't expect it to exist, he also knew he could take over the world if he had more dark eco, and we've seen him over power the other sages with dark eco alone, but in order to win the game all 4 eco had to combine and produce light eco so jak could finally defeat them, mind you the light eco's power 1 shoted the precursor mech, something that all the sages couldn't do even when they were freed, if there's something out there that the "precursors" can't deal with, without jak it begs the question of, how powerful are they? And yes, I know by the time jak is able to use the light eco the mech is damaged, but even in the 3rd game that mech didn't fall apart it blew up once it hit the bottom of the pit, despite the more modern tech, light eco blew apart the mech with only the head being the only thing that got locked in the dark eco silo.

[@backflipsimmons]

I always assumed Jak could handle dark eco in 2 because he was exposed to light eco at the end of Tpl