James White Refutes Himself | Leighton Flowers | Calvinism | Pelagianism

James White blatantly contradicts himself on the issue of “Pelagianism” and whether or not someone should be labeled based on a single alignment with a known boogeyman. Dr. White says that those sorts of tactics run counter to good scholarship. One may ask then, why does Dr. White insist on calling Leighton a Pelagian without taking into account all of Leighton’s teaching and ministry outside of Soteriology 101? 🤔
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #Theology

[@andnowthis8139]

“Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.” - James White

[@chriscasillas]

The fact that Leighton didn’t even have to be in this video at all is awesome. Literally just let White do the talking…mission accomplished.

[@chriscasillas]

@@11B_RTO The video itself is context. As well as a good deal of past interaction between the two. If you aren’t aware of that context, why are you watching this video? Either get caught up or ignore it.

[@dfischer5878]

@@chriscasillasinteraction, lol. Leighton Flowers puts up bits and pieces of James Whites dividing line show and makes it seem As they are debating. Glad they are finally going to debate in person but a ministry based solely on trying to disprove Calvinism is sad in it self. Go therefore and preach the gospel……

[@chriscasillas]

@@dfischer5878 You do realize they HAVE debated in person before, right? Not to mention that White does the same thing with clips of Leighton. And there is nothing sad about devoting some time and energy to disproving an inaccurate view of soteriology. Also keep in mind that Leighton is not a "one string banjo." (Hope you get that reference. If not, it's time for you people to stop commenting on these videos.)

[@BPond7]

@@dfischer5878His ministry isn’t based on that, and if you’d watched more of his longer videos, you’d realize that. In any event, it’s always a good time to refute Calvinism.

[@Vae07]

Yeah best arguments he’s ever made, let’s hope he sticks with the silent strategy 🙄

[@tommycapps9903]

Then James White please stop calling people you disagree with Palagians

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

He can’t God hath not decreed it.

[@jjphank]

4 points Of Arminianism is the true biblical doctoral viewpoint!

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

@@jjphank I’m not an Arminian so I would have to debate that. I see Arminianism as “Calvinism light”. Funny thing is I thought I was an Arminian for 30 years because I wasn’t a Calvinist. Listening to LF I found out what Arminianism is and realized I’m just a Christian who believes in free will and God’s provision for everyone.

[@jjphank]

@@kevinkleinhenz6511 arminianists believes in free will all the way, none of the five points of Calvinism, in fact, the opposite see below! so if there’s something floating around on the Internet …..but look up the five points of Armenianism! 1. Human Free Will - This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature. 2. Conditional Election - God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message. 3. Universal Atonement - The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived. 4. Resistible Grace - The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ. 5. Fall from Grace - The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation. Provisionists believe you can’t you can’t lose your salvation, which is false! OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@gingernutpreacher]

​@@jjphanknot provisionisium

[@EnHacore1]

Incredible 😂 I think Dr White was predestined to contradict himself

[@donaldmonzon1774]

🤭hehe....

[@donaldmonzon1774]

I'd much rather watch Hillary Clinton than dr. White 🤢

[@paularmesin]

Haha this is a good one

[@seth101-hv4st]

You know that sounds funny, but to be a consistent Calvinist that would be exactly correct. God predetermined him to contradict himself.

[@iAintSayDat]

This clip shows White knows he’s smearing traditionalists when he calls us names. We can dismiss the the idea he doesn’t see what he’s doing.

[@johnknight3529]

I hesitate to go so far as to dismiss the idea that Mr. White doesn't know what he's doing, but I certainly accept the idea that he may be knowingly/intentionally undermining faith in the God of the Book. The Book says they will come- "transformed as the ministers of righteousness" -so to me it is just a question of who, not if. But I am fallible, no doubt in my mind, so I hesitate to dismiss the idea that he knows not what he does.

[@iAintSayDat]

@@johnknight3529 I'm saying he does know what he's doing.. I think this clip shows it. I phrased the comment awkwardly.

[@patrickholt4140]

Well obviously GOD DECREED it . (Sarcasm)

[@johnknight3529]

@@iAintSayDat - I can agree that he should know what he's doing, based on what is shown here, no problem. My problem with concluding he does know, has to do with my experience with humans . . I find it somewhat common for people to not realize the logical implications of what they are saying, so it's possible this man lacks self-awareness to the point of not "catching" himself in the act of rationalizing away logical contradiction(s), it seems to me. (Not likely, just possible)

[@ejt3708]

I'm getting the idea that some people (maybe now many people!) think that whatever comes out of their mouth is right. They think so highly of themselves that they no longer have to wonder whether they contradict themselves. My first impression of James White was he was arrogant, which is a sin no matter how many degrees and followers you have.

[@deantodd8103]

Regrettably, many prominent Calvinist preachers exhibit the same kind of haughty, arrogant pride.

[@trebmaster]

It's Narcissism.

[@jjphank]

You’ve been keen! This is true with the last days Church called Laodicea, which represents the time that we live in! It means church of the people or church of peoples opinions! First, Corinthians 4:20 the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of power

[@ejt3708]

@@jjphank And you as well bro. I was thinking word meant Word, but it seems to mean just talk: 1 Corinthians 4:18-21 (KJV) 18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power. 21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness? Leighton is on the right track with the Matt 5:5 meekness issue.

[@ejt3708]

@@deantodd8103 I don't know any flavor that isn't prone to this kind of bitterness.

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

It's funny but sad. I don't hear "Christ" when James White talks. And I sure as heck don't hear "Gospel".

[@jeremiahharris5002]

I think the same about when Todd Friel speaks too. I think it is the oozing amount of arrogance. Very Car Salesman like.

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

@@jeremiahharris5002 I have to confess, I'm not familiar with Todd Friel.

[@jeremiahharris5002]

@@TyehimbaJahsi he hosts a podcast and runs a media company called “Wretched radio”

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

@@jeremiahharris5002 Oh, the guy from "Wretched"? Now I remember. Just didn't connect the name. Yeah, I'd buy a car from him. Just not any doctrine!

[@russdoesstuff]

"Do you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Pelagius the wise?" -- Sorry I couldn't help myself, I was predetermined by God to make that joke.

[@VinceOlson96]

As a Star Wars fan I appreciate this joke

[@benjaminofperrin]

And I was predetermined to give you a like for that joke!

[@craigime]

😂

[@mariebo7491]

I don’t know how anyone takes this man seriously 😐

[@darthnocturnis3941]

It would be hard for those who have followed him a long time. I don't know if you have listened to the debates he had with Catholics many years back (labeled "The Great Debate" or something), but those were very well done. He built up a solid reputation in all the right ways. It just seems that as he's gotten older, Calvinism got closer to his heart than the Bible it is supposed to be based in. I think this ought to be a lesson to ANY of us who holds to a theological tradition. The tradition needs to be an expression of the Bible, not the lens through which we view the Bible.

[@mariebo7491]

@@darthnocturnis3941 Calvinism closer to his heart and ego larger than life. Lol.

[@darthnocturnis3941]

@@mariebo7491 I'll just say it can happen to anyone. It's sad, regardless.

[@turkeybobjr]

Only Calvinists take James White seriously.

[@Ron-jw3ty]

Leighton? I find it strange that he solely targets true Bible Believing Pastors for their Calvinistic views, instead of focusing on the "Pastors" where the real danger lies (the Hinns, Osteens, Copelands) who are literally leading droves of people to hell and are getting rich while doing so. He had his chance to refute James White in person, and sadly for the Flower fanboys, he failed miserably. And I do not believe he will do much better the next time around either. The only time he "appears" to have the stronger argument is when he is critiquing their videos, but he always seems to fail miserably when trying to refute the person in a debate. when they can actually respond to his very poor understanding of the Greek. If he disagrees with Calvinism, that's fine. But to make an entire ministry out of causing even more division in the body of Christ when there are far more dangerous people behind the pulpit is strange to me. People are literally dying and going to hell and all Flower Boy can do is create a ministry to make Christianity/ Christians/ Christ appear even more unappealing to unbelievers. And, one last thing, Since Leighton believes anyone can come to Christ, could someone please point me to where Flowers is actually sharing the Gospel on his channel,, instead of his opinion that Calvinism is wrong? Because I always hear him talking about how anyone can come to Christ, but have yet to see any videos of him trying to win people for Christ

[@yvonnedoulos8873]

Whoever suffered through all the old videos of JW to find this gem should get a huge bonus in their paycheck. 💵💵💵

[@teeemm9456]

I think the general idea of common goals should override some of the disagreements. Most of what he says from videos I've watched are actually good content, but I haven't focused on the inter-Christian debates.

[@AndrewKeifer]

Just feed it back to him, "Dr. White, you can stand on your head, you can wear a pink tutu and spin in circles, you are a gnostic." and watch him pull his beard out in hypocritical indignation.

[@yvonnehedeker3441]

Its so hard for humans to see or hear themselves.. Let's pray that the Holy Spirit help James White and all of us.

[@Wretch-rx2my]

Speaking of which: Here's a challenge for you, friend: push pause on LF for 2 months. Read John 6, Romans 8-9, and Ephesians 1 five times per week. As you do, ask the Holy Spirit to teach you what you are seeing. Keep KZbin off. Just write down what you observe from the text in a journal.

[@mattfuller651]

He isn’t refuting himself. He rejects a particular form of argumentation to support calling someone palagian but you didn’t demonstrate that he was using the argumentation that he refuted.

[@sketchbook1]

I was listening to a video on Augustine and how he totally changed the theology of the Church, especially in Soteriology. Evidently, before Augustine, ALL the Church Fathers taught and argued FOR FREE WILL against the pagans and gnostics. EVEN AUGUSTINE, during his first decade or so as a Christian, departed from determinism and argued for free will against heretics. ONLY LATER did he bring back in Manichean gnostic beliefs and began arguing against free will.

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

More Christians need to be aware of this history.

[@ellisrowe363]

Amen!!!@@PrairieChristianOutreach

[@georgekramer5747]

A more full reading of St. Augustin reveals he is in no way a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination. He discussed predestination, but not theistic determinism. Yes, reading the fathers requires a "fuller" reading. And actually, it is clear he was thoroughly Catholic, which I'm okay with.

[@geraldhawkins773]

You are absolutely correct! If there hadn’t been debate between those two these troubles wouldn’t be here today. What is debate? It is strife, one of the many sins listed in the second part of Romans chapter one.

[@sketchbook1]

Of course Augustine wasn't a Calvinist in the 1500s sense. Yet Calvin openly claimed his views were almost entirely from Augustine. And BTW Luther was an AUGUSTINIAN monk originally! @@georgekramer5747

[@mariebo7491]

I don’t even care anymore. Call me a “semi pelagian.” Just another buzz word at this point. Like “racist.” 🙄

[@DamonNomad82]

The only difference between a "racist" and a "Pelagian/semi-Pelagian" is that racists actually existed, while there has never been a documented case of any actual "Pelagian/semi-Pelagian" in human history. Calling anyone "semi-Pelagian" is like calling them a "racist leprechaun"!

[@mariebo7491]

@@DamonNomad82 True! 🤣

[@DamonNomad82]

You are merely parroting Augustinian propaganda and spewing false accusations. Augustine was a liar and false teacher who made up an imaginary "heresy" that nobody ever believed in and named it after Pelagius out of pure spite after Pelagius exposed the false teachings that Augustine had imported from his old Manichean Gnostic religion. Augustine had Pelagius tried for heresy by two different church councils, but both of them found Pelagius innocent of heresy. The Bishop of Rome at the time even publicly reprimanded Augustine for his shameful mistreatment of Pelagius and abuse of Church councils, though the Roman Emperor of the time, Honorius, was an Augustine fanboy and made the Bishop withdraw his rebuke. After failing to convict Pelagius twice over, Augustine called a council of his own, this time made up of his own faction. This illegitimate, biased council described 14 "points" of so-called "Pelagianism", 13 of which Pelagius outright rejected and never taught and one of which he half agreed with but which was distorted by Augustine and his cronies. While many have been falsely accused of "Pelagianism/semi-Pelagianism", there has never been a single documented case of anyone actually affirming all, most, or even half of the supposed 14 points. Therefore, there has never been any actual confirmed case of either Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism in history. Far from being a "conspiracy theory", the history I described above has been clearly researched and documented by multiple highly qualified historians (Dr. Ken Wilson and Dr. Ali Bonner, to name two of them) who have thoroughly examined the evidence. YOU are the one who "hasn't done your homework". @@InaGrove-ib6zn

[@Aidanrvb09]

Based on James White’s statement, Eastern Orthodox Christians are Pelagians, even though it was originally the Orthodox Church that condemned it.

[@alexdiaz155]

Bro, none of us even knew who Pelagius was until the modern era. If Pelagius can somehow sway an entire denomination that never even knew him, you may have too broad a definition of Pelagianism.

[@turkeybobjr]

You will become a lot less concerned with being labeled a "Pelagian" when you learn that Augustine wasn't an Apostle and had no binding authority. 🤷‍♂️

[@jackdabbs1633]

If this is not the start of a long series, I will be disappointed!

[@trebmaster]

What if it's part of a short series?

[@jackdabbs1633]

@@trebmaster I don't think a short series could satisfy my taste for this particular delicacy.

[@tonn333]

​@@jackdabbs1633so much so that you would have to make your own

[@KlaustheViking]

I have to be honest that debates/refutations/etc. in regard to all of this has become ever so more juvenile that it’s hard to listen to it without a “you’re a this,” “you’re that,” and sit in theological echo chambers all day and say “everyone but me is incorrect” essentially.

[@briancross9571]

The hypocrisy of James White was decided by God before the world began.

[@joserivera8429]

I sense a hint of inspiration of Idol Killer on the comedic editing. Gold!

[@atyt11]

👍👍absolutely and check out Leighton's Jan 10th, 2024 episode "Does God Try and Fail" @ 52:00 this will be the new anthem for james white: JW declares "dead is actually better than being alive...."🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@letstalktech96]

That clip from the office at the end 😂😂👏

[@luizcorona777]

This man needs a great dose of humility.

[@danielletracyann]

💯 he makes me sick just watching him. He’s so condescending, it’s disgusting.

[@ethanmulvihill7177]

I love how no one questions whether they've fundamentally misunderstood his position and assume he's "refuting himself." At least ask whether it's *you* who are confused.

[@TheGreekCatholic]

Why do people who are in a fringe group call anyone an heretic? Calvanism would be the biggest herasy of all time

[@mannycano4599]

The irony is we're finding out that Pelagius wasn't even a Plegian it really is truly a boogie man label!!

[@extremelifeandlarydean1894]

Thank you so much for sharing that video. I barely left out loud and I was smiling so big I thought my face was gonna crack. Keep it coming, it’s good to laugh about stuff, and sometimes levity can round off the sharp edges of the truths, we’re trying to share so they can actually get into peoples heads, hearts, and lives!

[@PETERJOHN101]

Talking in circles is something Calvinists do so consistently that it could only have been predetermined. 😂

[@JesusIsLord-John316]

Wow. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[@GradyRisley]

Thanks! I can't stand to listen to him long enough to evaluate and point out his hypocracy.😊

[@ellisrowe363]

JW has an indicator that he is an Augustinian, he can't go back any further than Augustine for his theology.

[@jjphank]

That’s because he’s such a Calvinist and Calvin kept saying in his book, ‘institutes’, father, referring to Augustine over and over again, worshiping Augustines false doctrines, Augustine being pretty much a gnostic. He invented babies baptism and the invisible church false doctrine!

[@ellisrowe363]

How right you are!@@jjphank

[@bugslayerprime7674]

Augustine didn't invent paedo baptism, Pelagius acknowledged that the Church should baptize infants, he just didn't know why.

[@jjphank]

@@bugslayerprime7674 You’re straight up wrong, do some research!!!

[@ejt3708]

@@bugslayerprime7674 I encourage everybody to read Ken Wilson, at least his summary book. Augie placed so much power in the church (that he controlled), people feared that infants would burn in hell if not baptized. It's Matt 7:1 judgement.

[@mannycano4599]

also wanted to say that both Warren McGrew and Leighton Flowers interviewed a specialist on Pelagius I think her name was Dr. Ali Bonner. the interview was very enlightening to say the least.

[@lesliebee8918]

Thanks for mentioning that, sounds interesting, going to look it up.

[@DamonNomad82]

Yes. Leighton Flowers has also had multiple conversations on the topic with another specialist on Pelagius, Dr. Ken Wilson.

[@mannycano4599]

@@DamonNomad82 That's right I forgot about Dr. Ken Wilson his interviews are also very enlightening

[@kevinteichroeb6997]

Brilliantly put together!

[@scottthong9274]

"Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument" - James White

[@mkathrynblacker5960]

LOL towards the end, his mannerisms change; it's almost as if he can see that he's doing the VERY thing he's saying not to do. 😂

[@risenindeed]

James White sounds like my brother-in-law - self confident without substance.

[@alexwarren1637]

I think we need to see the rest of the video because this whole clip was demonstrating how James White (who I disagree with in general about theology) was saying that form of argumentation is wrong...so the beginning of the video he was actually 'arguing' in the way that he self-admits is a bad argument. I assume rest of video he has other reasonS for his indictment, but not sure - need to see the video in full.

[@Terrylb285]

The battle rages on , now it’s time to go watch a video titled leighton flowers refutes himself.

[@mikelyons2831]

Haha, you got me this time Leighton. I've been upset with you for waisting so much time on White. But this was rich!

[@dw6528]

*THE INDICATOR ON JAMES' SHIRT* I noticed the tree on Jame's shirt does not have any fruit on it. Is that an *INDICATOR* that he ate the fruit??? :-D

[@inhistime2007]

Brilliant!

[@KevinHale-vq2xr]

There is such thing as a semi pelagian. We know the truth of the matter now Jimmy.

[@oterosocram25]

Yes, he is busted in hypocrisy. Come on brother James.

[@saml1001]

James White makes me sick. His disgusting smug arrogance is repulsive.

[@TheMisterEGUY]

He is so snarky

[@atyt11]

If Leighton called the grass green and fire hot, White would somehow try to find a way to refute it.

[@tylery3082]

James White thinks we don't know a buttload of crap about the Gospel, but we do. - Alternate version of Nacho Libre

[@sheilasmith7779]

Labels ( calvinist, pelagian) are NOT arguments. The labels are meaningless. Present, instead, declarative statements. "I believe, x."

[@mattyskilling4522]

Rules for thee but not for me! Narcists lack self awareness as Dr White shows beautifully here.

[@rafal2959]

"Calvin, in telling us that hell is populated with babies not a cubit long, merely reminds us that within a certain traditional understanding of grace and predestination, the choice to worship God rather than the devil is at most a matter of prudence." - David Hart

[@JesusChristisKing94]

For as illogical as James White is, I still desire to see him saved and to see the Lord for who he truly is. We need to pray for him brothers and sisters!

[@fnfjedi]

How old is that clip?

[@breadznfishz4132]

“It’s fine, as long as it’s not being done to me.” - paraphrase, James White

[@MichaelHernandez-lc2wb]

😆😅🤣This clip was great...

[@jonasaras]

He says that likes it’s something that would hurt your feelings

[@krstnmarie3]

WOW! That's all I can say...

[@alanbutler7712]

Fantastic clip!! But, James White will never watch your clip since it is over 60 seconds... even though it is a video of himself!

[@godsstruggler8783]

Pride tends to blind.

[@JonathanEngblom]

The worst thing is,probably, that he doesn't realise the his own contradiction....however, few of us do, I think...🤔

[@evantcoyle5865]

The only thing I would point out is this. The part of the video where James White contradicts what he said earlier, about not characterizing someone based on just one thing, while ignoring everything else. In my opinion,the slow motion and pitch change was unnecessary. The clip speaks for itself without that.

[@markv2516]

True, it's a kind manipulating using this fragment to demonize a person and promote your anti-calvinism propaganda. And the cartoon expressions are a bit derogatory. Will the real narcist please stand up.

[@R2J23]

@@markv2516 Bingo!

[@TheSpanishHerald]

Loooool, love it!

[@graftme3168]

"you don't do that" unless you're James White, then it doesn't count. That is classic narcissism. Calvinism is attractive to narcissists.

[@Inconceivable73]

Curious and sincere question: Do you think William Carey, Adoniram Judson, John Eliot, George Whitfield, and Samuel Zwemer were narcissists?

[@bolt.22]

I had a thought, or maybe God did. If the inevitable deterministic view of calvinism is true, and if God infallibly decrees every evil we do according to his perfect will, could we still be considered fallible while perfectly doing the evil act that God has perfectly made us do according to his perfect will? Could it not be right to infer that in hyper calvinism(or just calvinism) we are then perfect even though doing evil?

[@AnniEast]

That has been one of the points of contention.

[@ayecaptin]

Okay, that was pretty funny!

[@JasonJrake]

More of this please!

[@jpwministries]

2 things; 1. Dr. White was being sarcastic at the beginning to prove a point. Not my style but that's how he chooses to teach. 2. Wesleyanism is a better counter argument to Calvinism because Wesley acknowledged original sin but also said God gives us prevenient grace so we can repent and believe, or choose to walk away as the rich young man did, see Luke 18:18-25. He heard the truth and walked away (not irresistible grace)

[@ejt3708]

Even better, Leighton says we can ditch Total Inability and Augie's (weird!) view of Original Sin. Grace is everywhere.

[@caman171]

i understand ur point brother. but those of us who are neither calvinist nor arminian actually see arminianism as a form of calvinism. arminius never claimed to be anything but calvinist. so as we see it, you have a piece of string, with calvinism at one end and arminianism at the other. as long as the string is in a straight line, they appear to be opposites, but if u take the string and make a circle with it, the 2 ends touch, and the calvinist and arminian are actually side by side. in both, God must conquer the human will and basically regenerate a man before he can be saved. in both, you must "persevere" (in calvinism u must persevere to prove ur saved and in arminianism to stay saved, but lack of perseverance proves u are lost in both systems) in both sysytems, God actually "saves" you before you have faith. those of us who are in neither camp, deny that God imputes adams guilt to a newborn child. we would deny that we are responsible for adams sin, we are responsible for our own sin. (ezek 18:19-23) we also reject total depravity, so prevenient grace is not needed. anyone over the age of accountability has the capability of hearing an argument, seeing evidence, and making a conclusion as to the truth of the Gospel. (yes we do believe the Holy Spirit is "urging" us and convicting us of sin) even in arminianism, grace is irresistable, the difference is you can choose to walk away once it has been imposed on you. for those of us who are neither calvinist nor arminian, "life" (regeneration) ONLY occurs AFTER belief or faith in Christ. in prevenient grace, God actually "saves" or regenerates you, so that u CAN believe, whether u realize thats what arminius was saying or not. blessings friend

[@christvictoriouskingdomnow2473]

@@caman171 I have a similar view, but its different as well. I think we just don't know how all of this works and that is where faith comes in. I cannot read Romans 9 and other Calvinistic text and not see God's sovereignty in salvation, but I also cannot read scripture in other places and not see man's responsibility, which I like to say rather than free-will. I can read the story of Joseph and see both being used in such a way and without contradiction that it seems that is the way God intended for us to see it, though we in our finite minds can not put the two together without contradiction. Your analogy of putting the two ends of the string together is good however, even if we disagree on how that works or what that means.

[@caman171]

@@christvictoriouskingdomnow2473 well brother, no one in the non cavinist/provisionist camp has ever denied God's sovereignty in salvation. in fact, we affirm it MORE than calvinists, because if God is so weak, that the only way for His will to be done is by force, then He isnt almighty at all. we believe God does decide who is saved...he saves those who actually freely believe, just like you love ur husband or wife because they freely married you and chose you. if u forced them to marry you, would u really be satisfied? real love can never be forced, its impossible. we also believe God chose a GROUP to be saved rather than individuals, just as He chose Israel as a nation. for example, lets say God chose the new york yankees to win the world series. even so, He still invites ALL to join the team regardless of their ability to play. therefor, the yankees have no other choice but to win, because God has guaranteed that they cant be defeated. yet all the players on the team joined freely, and put on the yankees uniform (putting on Christ's righteousness). the bible says Christ died for the CHURCH and gave Himself for her. (eph 5:25) the church is the team. yet the Scriptures also declare the "He is the propitiation for our sins (the church) AND not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 john 2:1) taking that same analogy of the string, when its in a straight line it appears that those in my camp are in between the calvinist and arminian. but when the strinf is in a circle, what appeared as the midpoint, now appears to be the opposite of both

[@christvictoriouskingdomnow2473]

@@caman171 To be fair the Calvinist don't believe its "forced", they would say God removes the veil and simply opens their eyes to see Him, in which they will always choose Him, because who would choose death over eternal life? I'm not saying I agree with that, just saying that many times Calvinism is misrepresented. God-bless

[@kotchstevens2321]

Its a fascinating topic, did the ancient Israelits use 5% will power & God came in with the other 95% to set themselves free from Egypt? If & when the Son sets us free? will we b 100% free or do we need to "kick start the process"? The quest for truth continues.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

He was already a believer😅

[@jtika1978]

The use of a Nacho clip earns a subscription

[@davidlarsen6175]

How do you say I CANNOT Stand James White! Nicely?? Any ideas?

[@DamonNomad82]

Easy! Just follow any mention of James White's name with some variety of "Bless his precious little heart!"

[@JacquelineHahn1]

watching theologians argue in circles, make labels, create categories of systematic theology reminds me of the Pharisees , Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots of Yeshua’s day. All so busy philosophising and theorising over the jots and the tittles, straining out a gnat and tithing the mint that most of them completely missed the Messiah. Tell me what is it that God requires of you? Act justly, love mercy and walk humbly before your God. If I have all knowledge of great theological themes but have not love I am nothing. Surely those who accept the kingdom of God as a little child and simply trust in the Hessed of Messiah shall walk with the easiest yoke and lightest burden

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

Another inconsistent Calvinist complaining about the decree. Please tell me does God ordain all things that come to pass or not?

[@AndrewKeifer]

Only when it suits the Calvinists' argumentation. When it doesn't, it's conveniently forgotten.

[@euanthompson]

Bit of a self own there from White.

[@UNKLEnic]

James White turned off his comments on his channel regarding his last video on Leighton. hmm...

[@JStevensdk7]

LOL love it. Praying James finds himself out of the self made wormhole he placed himself in.

[@jasongillis1336]

"That's because you're a determinist, James" - WLC

[@nonamejustbecause5130]

The perfect example of self righteousness and living in the sin of intellectualism and putting his own education and scholarship above the very word(s) of God

[@stefankoning9433]

Please keep it meaningful and not childish.

[@larrybedouin2921]

Since when is exposing hypocrisy childish?

[@stefankoning9433]

@@larrybedouin2921 The facial expressions inserted I find a bit childish. Maybe that's just me. I am well for exposing hypocrisy though.

[@quickattackfilms7923]

I don’t think this works. To get out of the way of this refutation, he could just say “No, Leighton has more than just one thing in common with Palagius. He’s got WAY more in common!” Or something. His argument was that you shouldn’t label someone as something because they simply share one characteristic with that thing. He could just argue Leighton shares more than one characteristic with Palagius.

[@1995dodgetruck]

I believe Leighton gets under James White's skin? 😂

[@Hicky33]

Making a fool of himself. Scholarship doesn't matter.

[@JohnK557]

So James is a self proclaimed muddle head?

[@grahck4391]

I'd pay real money to see Dr. Flowers spinning in circles while standing on his head and wearing a pink tutu!! I'd pay even more to see the look on Ol' Whitey's face when he sees it!!

[@OkieAllDay]

I can appreciate Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. They at least are smart enough to condemn Calvinism as heresy. I'm sorry, I know it's not the popular thing in Southern Baptist circles, but I can't attend a church anymore pastored by a man who is a Calvinist. Can't do it.

[@silasberdes6466]

Many here stray into the error of overcorrection. Please don't do this. Spurgeon and Martin Llyod Jones are most certainly no heretics, especially compared to those in the RCC EO churches ... right?

[@user-ub7gm5dj7i]

A friend of mine once made the statement, "Nobody is wrong 100 per cent of the time!" So is there a possibility that even Pelagius, as much as he differed with orthodox Christianity, and the fact that Calvinists like to use Pelagius as a "whipping boy" for their dogmas, may have gotten a thing or two right?

[@user-ub7gm5dj7i]

Another thought occurred to me - "Nobody ever went broke underestimating either the taste or the intelligence of the American public!" Does Dr. White write books or give lectures?

[@djs9315]

Honestly.. this guy is so UNPLEASANT to listen to.. look, I’m sure if he’s in a social setting with those who know him on a personal level, he’s prob good company.. but the way he comes across in these videos, he really does himself no favours, it’s so self assured in his understanding and he seems to have a natural tendency to talk of others as if they’re peasants & just WAY below his brilliance. If he could lose that aspect, become a lil more ready to explore possibility space and hear others views, he’d be more bearable.. but I literally cannot stomach his way and delivery.. but again, I feel confident to say I believe he believes what he says and I’m sure he’s a good grandpa etc

[@geoffers396]

This has to be satire 😂

[@jaikee9477]

From personal experience I can say that sometimes the best thing to do is shut up and repent.

[@ruthgar8]

Interestingly, White wears a representation of the Cosmic Tree that would be found in Ancient worldviews, including the Hebrews. I wonder if he even knows what it represents.

[@5Solas1Truth]

Oh James...you just came against your own argument lol I guess a senate of sinful men call the shots on Calvinism?

[@jkbugout]

Ouch

[@sethmcmullen2332]

Don't tell James White, but Augustine didn't affirm Federal Headship either. He thought it was Adam "in whom" all sinned. The idea of a Federal Head didn't exist till 1300 years later.

[@AdamW321]

"oh well Leighton, it''s so said that you take what White says out of context. You just don't understand Calvinism." Just waiting for such comment to come...

[@sperez103]

This is hilarious🤣🤣🤣

[@apostasiaelegcho5612]

Augustine really did a number on Christianity by convincing a bunch of illiterate individuals that we are all guilty for Adam's sin.

[@GordonGartrell27]

Does it take effort to be that unlikable, or does it just come naturally for him?

[@vitaignis5594]

Here's the problem. There are three options in response to the pelagian controversy. It's not simply Pelagianism and Augustinianism. Pelagianism - which is heresy, the Augustinian approach - which incorporates some aspects of manicheaism and is reliant on a defective Latin translation - and the Greek synergist approach (found in Chrysostom and Cyril of Alexandria)which is easily traceable to the Apostles and flows from the reliable Greek manuscripts. Eastern synergism is the best approach to the pelagian controversy and avoids the excesses of Pelagius and Augustine.

[@johnbaird8805]

That guy just likes to hear himself talk.

[@deadeyeridge]

Reminds me of when many provisionists can calvinists manicheans. We can all fall into the temptation easily

[@davidhorvat700]

Do not get sucked into the world by spending too much time watching videos instead of just reading your Bible and let the Lord speak to you .

[@dolorescunningham4816]

You are so right. 🙏🙏🙏

[@lionoffireministries]

Anyone that takes James White seriously, cannot be taken seriously!

[@thomasthepromise8430]

Michael Scott James White: "Don't ever, for any reason, do anything to anyone for any reason ever, no matter what, no matter where, or who, or who you are with, or where you are going, or where you've been... ever, for any reason whatsoever..." For someone with so much supposed academic intelligence, White sure rattles a lot of nonsense.

[@rlpsychology]

I like the Nacho Libre clip.