Jay and Stu talk Doctor Who: Village of the Angels

[@Ben-wx7kk]

The episode premise you described of a destroyed planet with a mysterious guy promising everyone he can take them somewhere safe and amazing is literally just Series 3's Utopia.

[@jongensspelenspellen5471]

To be fair, the show has been around so long, even the revival, it was going to repeat itself sooner or later.

[@uneterostardust8233]

utopia.... *Shivers*

[@imperielgenecist1317]

This episode… was almost good I mostly put that on the secondary writer.

[@hada__02]

I believe in Maxine Alderton supremacy

[@Myne1001]

You almost tell the parts that Maxine most likely wrote and the parts that Chris most likely wrote.

[@titularhero]

Dan has now spent over 3 years with yaz and jerico and 2 mins with the doctor

[@googleplusisgone9435]

Yeah, it's hard to call Dan a companion of the Doctor, he's more just someone who tagged along for a trip and a half and got stuck

[@MrJoshjameslee]

Which begs the question why he’s so relaxed with everything.

[@titularhero]

@@MrJoshjameslee he's scouse init

[@MrBobthened]

Even Yaz has spent more time with Dan and Jericho than she ever did has with the Doctor. She’s spent maybe a year with the doctor, but spent three whole years in the 1900s.

[@megabuilder15]

The thing that annoyed me about the 'oh no I'm out of time, the coordinates are-' message, was that she still had the ability to scratch the coordinates on the wall or even just leave a physical hint, just write something down! Neil from the inbetweeners could have also given the coordinates - even though he was ignoring her he knew that she was leaving and was willing to take Vinder to the message.

[@concon09090]

Yeah, for some reason it was treated like a transmission that was cut off, when that blatantly is not what it was!

[@almostjune6485]

And the worst part is i doubt it wouldve impacted the bloody story if the coordinates were there, i bet Chibbs is just going to go, "oops vinder found her" with no explanation, when it wouldve been better to give a reason for it!!!

[@phil1500]

@@almostjune6485 I mean, he literally showed up exactly where she was going without any explanation, so yeah. also, 10:1 they're the doctor's parents and they all get reunited right before they get sucked up through the dimension portal that opens in the finale putting a looped bow on the timeless child confusion.

[@almostjune6485]

@@phil1500 GOD PLEASE! I swear if they do that i will cry!

[@CognetoBurrito]

To be honest, the Angels banging on the doors instead of just smashing through them fits their M.O. of being sadistic. The episode makes multiple clear as day reminders that these are creatures that *want* you to be afraid, that *want* your interaction with them to be as miserable and frightening as possible because they find it amusing. Why just smash down a door when you can cause all the noise and suspense that just banging loudly on it does? It's why they ring the doorbell constantly, too, as the episode points out. A lot of the Weeping Angel's behaviour - including how much their speed constantly seems to vary - can be chalked up to their sadism, because it's one of the few things that's remained consistent about them over the years.

[@Roboshi2007]

this is true, but when your creatures fail because they're playing around and feeding their own sadistic tendencies you only serve to declaw them further. It's another example of the "people aren't rational so of course they'll do exactly the opposite of what they should be doing" which has been a lot of people's defence of bad storytelling.

[@uneterostardust8233]

makes me remind of the Flesh and stone quote from Angel bob "it's hard to put into words, but The angels are laughing" sick fucks

[@comicconcarne]

@@Roboshi2007 True. A good sadistic demonic figure that gets foiled by its own sadism is the Other Mother / Beldam from Coraline. She's got the protagonist cornered, just has to wait for her victim to agree to give their soul, but when she's offered the chance to play a game and *gamble* for the soul she just can't refuse, it's too enticing an offer. Then again, the angels "win" in this one, so I guess they're allowed to go a bit slow?

[@LukasOfTheLight]

@@uneterostardust8233 That bit was so creepy.

[@MrBobthened]

@@Roboshi2007 but they didn't fail though. They caught everyone they set out to catch, and sent the rest of the main characters back in time.

[@BNumbersStation]

Jay is massively underselling Evil Dan.

[@qwertyuio404]

And the line he used to describe Evil Dan originally wasn’t “What’s the point in being alive?” but actually “What’s the point in being alive if it’s not to make others die?” And I really like Harry’s Moving Media’s interpretation of the meme as being a logical progression of the inhumanly underreactive nature of the Chibnall companion. I mean, (Stranger breaks down front door with an axe and is aggressively heading toward him) _“What is it with you lot tonight? You’ll pay for that door, you know.”_ Isn’t exactly that far off from _“Nobody needs soup more than me. I’ll take a couple of them for tonight. Ha hoo. I’m good at this.”_

[@Addy0302]

I guess I made a slight leap in logic to patch up a plot hole because I assumed the "no-one survives it twice" thing was because of the quantum extraction, so there was no time for them to be sent back to from 1901 so they just died.

[@kylejones8289]

I've always thought a Doctor-lite found-footage episode about a group of people being picked off one-by-one by a single Weeping Angel in a remote location could be really cool. There could be some really cool things you could mess around with the perspective and diegesis there with the found-footage aspect. Since it's all original characters, you could kill any of them at any time, and they would have to slowly figure out what is going on. I think that it could be a way to make them really creepy again. Kind of like a "Dalek" for them.

[@darialarina1095]

I can't even believe how genuinely depressed I feel because of the last two seasons. Like... it's just a show, you know, but the way Chibnell is killing it without any consequences for himself - it's just heartbreaking. My brain refuses to process the fact that he is praised for this shit

[@markpatrick2735]

i feel the same way sad, depresed and oh god the timeless blaaarg. i used to love this show

[@jesspetty8163]

literally i want to like it so bad but i just don’t cuz it’s so poop

[@MrJoshjameslee]

Absolutely. I think the main problem is that the companions are just not good. I think what RTD identified correctly when he restarted Who was that the companion was as important if not more important than the doctor (Theres a reason the first ep was titled simply ‘Rose’ and followed Rose’s ever day human life) they are the audience, they are us, and their emotional reaction, illogical reasoning and humanness sits juxtapose to the doctor and the crazy worlds. They anchor the action and give weight to decisions and highlight the emotional impact and risk in the monsters plans. Chibnalls companions are screen fillers, we dont connect with them and so we dont connect with the story. They stand around simply to allow the doctor to do exposition. It disconnects the story from the audience and i think its why so many fans feel disconnected.

[@MrPyroCrab]

Mary Whitehouse: "Damn this Show! All of my campaigning barely put a dent in its popularity!!!" Michael Grade: "I couldn't kill it either! When I tried to cancel it everybody threw a hissyfit!" Johnathan Powell: "Hell, I did cancel it after sieging the show's budget for years, and then it just came back anyway. How the fuck are we supposed to kill this stupid show!?" Chris Chibnall: "Hold my fucking beer."

[@dante6985]

Give RTD a chance.

[@fonkedonke]

I didn't mind the episode, to be honest I was actually pretty happy that Yaz felt like a police woman and had an impulse. Can't say the same for Dan

[@JS-Media-x1j]

Nice pfp

[@PetersonZF]

27:58 While it's overall a great episode, Father's Day also had an example of this contrivance, where the car that was supposed to kill Pete Tyler magically happens to be caught in a time loop just outside the church (even though it was originally supposed to hit him in a completely different location) providing the solution Pete needs to save the day.

[@titularhero]

If the division wanted the doctor so bad they sure haven't been trying very hard to capture her. They sent weeping angels death squads to extract an entire town for this weeping angel, yet they just kinda waited until they happened to come across her.

[@poppiaria]

"The doctor will be back in 20 minutes and save the day" I love how Jay predicted the ending of this episode lasting all of 2 seconds in the next ep.

[@carpedm9846]

16:30 there has been a character who tried to destroy them. In angels take manhattan, someone had an angel chained and bolted, and attempted to destroy it, angel was severely damaged and disfigured, as if a wild animal attacked a human, but it still kept its general face and the guy mentions that he tried everything but the angel was no ordinary stone.

[@Huntracony]

I agree with Stu, Blink should've been the only weeping angels episode.

[@dante6985]

Flesh and Stone, Time of Angels, and even Angels Take Manhattan (despite the *groans* Angel-Statue-of-Liberty) followed Blink with a surprising dignity. Where the Angels really suffered IMHO was was their inclusion in one-offs like Time of the Doctor, Hell Bent, Revolution of the Daleks, and here in Village. Their presence in an already convoluted story arc, taking jobs as division operatives? The Doctor becoming an angel was a cool visual... for about 5 seconds until it was undone?

[@LukasOfTheLight]

@@dante6985 Agreed. I actually prefer the Angels in S5, if you ignore the dumb moving bit. I think it's those cheap cameos that really undersold them as you said. I love Hell Bent, it's beautiful and radical, but you can feel the second act panic a bit when it realises there's no monster in this story and so has to chuck a Dalek and an Angel on the screen to make things feel more Doctor Who-y.

[@mechagoblin8768]

I'm excited for Jodie's run to end so that Big Finish can start making stories with her.

[@videogamesworld01]

Like how her books and comics are ok I hooe big finish gives her some good stories

[@PlatinumAltaria]

I wish the tv show would do "classic specials", one-off stories with older doctors. Paul McGann and David Bradley do great work, and they could be great as a replacement for Christmas specials.

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

Ah, she'll be Colined.

[@tobyrosewell568]

Remember how the angels had to talk through a dead soldier using his voice box which added to the fear of the angels well now you can have a casual conversation with them

[@MrDarthT]

I think they explain that the Weeping Angels using images of themselves to manifest takes energy, which explains why they don't always do it. Also, I assume the reason you can't just smash a Weeping Angel is because they aren't real stone, more like time stone. I think "The Angels Take Manhattan" had a damaged Weeping Angel, but it's also been implied that if you can keep a Weeping Angel from feeding, they start to break down. I also don't think the Weeping Angels are complex and unknowable. I think they're damn simple. They're hungry and cruel. Every plan they've ever had has centred around feeding off time energy. I assume all the Division would have to do is promise them enough time energy.

[@kylejones8289]

Time of Angels did seem to imply that the reason they didn't use image powers in Blink is because those Angels were a small group that was weak and starving, not able to use the full suite of powers because they lacked the energy to do so. I believe that the Doctor had a line about those ones being a group of weak, starving scavengers. And, yeah I never really agreed that their appeal was rooted in their unknowable motivations. They are sadistic hunters that are hungry. They are sentient and smart, but their only real motivation is to feed on people and have fun doing it. There's nothing that unknowable about that. There is some fear from the lack of knowing their full nature, origins, and abilities, but their motivation has been pretty simple, clear, and consistent since Blink. They have a bit more they're trying to do here than normal, but that element is still there.

[@Yan_Alkovic]

44:24 STU ACKNOWLEDGED EVIL DAN YEEEEEEES!!! Jay, EVIL DAN also says "I'll take a couple of them for tonight" as he takes peoples' food, he encourages his friends to steal food by saying "Take the soup", and he actually said "What's the point of being alive if not to make others die", so, you know, pretty Evil Stuff. Shame that you don't appreciate it, but oh well. BTW John Bishop is actually totally on-board with EVIL DAN and re-tweets those vids.

[@Addy_The_Baddy]

i love how one of the shots hangs on a weeping angles reflection in the doors windows, where it's looking right into it's own eyes

[@Addy_The_Baddy]

not that I love the angels being beatable the same way someone in a tragic Greek myth could be

[@c.smidgeon2847]

I think the weeping angel storyline has some genuine promise - the prospect of a cadre of weeping angels hunting one of their own is, I think, quite interesting. Unfortunately, it's weighed down by its heavy connection to the Division, the series arc, and the general chibnall commitment to "quality"

[@greghawkins59]

I feel like many of the weird things about these angels is specific to these angels, like some just feed off sending people back in time, others do more complex traps like the manhattan angels, others are mercenaries like these angels.

[@Huntracony]

I'm sorry, a random time window appears out of nowhere and people are calling this the best episode ever? Did I get that right?

[@Myne1001]

I don't use Twitter so I can't speak to that, but the general consensus I've seen in KZbin comments its the best episode of the Chibnall era, and it totally is with the bar being set so low.

[@CTRL_X_X]

I miss Papa Stu's reading of the highway safety code. I feel really bad for those who didn't get to learn the valuable lesson of speeding and signs :/

[@titularhero]

There's a lot of stuff here that doesn't break weeping angel lore but still doesn't quite jive with it and feels off. Like I always kinds thought the image of an angel only became an angel if somone was looking at the image, because the angels exist in people eyes or brains or something, or when it's at least an actual image of the angel that they can push themselves through as the doctor says. But a drawing of a nonspecific angel drawn by a lie detector test, not even a person just sitting on a desk become an angel feels a bit dumb to me. Also did anyone not see the old woman being the girl coming, like cmon it was obvious.

[@4203105]

While I don't like the image of an angel becoming itself an angel, I think it's fine. What I absolutely hate is that they can enter people eyes/minds when you look at them. Since you also *have to* look at them to keep them at bay. Makes them way too OP.

[@danielcooper3332]

I think that only applies if you look an angel directly in the eyes.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Also they're weak to mirrors but literally no one ever uses them even though they're super common objects. That shot with Claire looking in the mirror is infuriating because it means there's at least one mirror in the house that could've saved them.

[@ИванКруглов-э4щ]

In time of angels(flesh and stone) I assumed angels could bend metal door because they were so pumped up by radiation

[@PlatinumAltaria]

They have super strength, in Blink they're strong enough to physically shake the Tardis.

[@thatoneguy4452]

Old lady should've been with the Doctor. That way, we could've got more screen time with her and the revelation that she's the missing girl would've been more satisfying.

[@greghawkins59]

This stream is just man explaining telly shows to his elderly father

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

1. I completely forgot that the Bel stuff was even in this episode. 2. Didn't the Angels open the time window? I thought that was how they got to 1967 in the first place. They put it there, and it was there in 1901 because it was stretching as far as the angels had an effect.

[@mathieuleader8601]

reminded me of Amy's Choice mixed with Hide

[@4203105]

I'm really annoyed that Chibbi doesn't understand how the angels work and obviously didn't even watch Blink to find out. First of all, they are not made of stone. They just turn to stone when somebody looks at them and they can't move while they are in stone form. Second that goes also for them looking at each other which is why they are always covering their eyes, to not accidentally look at each other. In this episode angels look at each other all the time, without consequences.

[@4203105]

@saber 1616 once you learn to write coherently, I might be able to answer you.

[@Kyle-qr7fg]

And the angels literally moved in flesh and stone and angels come from images there was angel images in blink

[@SuperKillJoy15]

@saber 1616 from all of your replies im getting an idea why the angels in Flux are fine. 1. Moffat screwed the continuity with the Angels and people were fine with that, so we dont have the right to criticize these angels. That's a terrible defense, in basic terms youre saying that both Moffat and Chibnal portrayed the angels poorly, but Moffat did it first so Chibnal is A-Ok. Also, people didn't just except Moffat's Angels because a lot of people hated some of the changes when that episode released. But some ideas, 'an image of an Angel becomes itself an Angel' is really interesting and makes the Angels even more terrifying to deal with and doesnt break Blinks continuity. 2. The Angels not being able to look at eachother isn't true. Just wrong on this one, not only proven in the end of Blink, but Moffat also adheres to that rule. If you notice, every time Moffats Angels are either chasing everyone or have to enter a small space together you can always see each face of the Angel clearly looking straight ahead. They are moving toward the Doctor and company fully knowing their own weakness that they wont even look at each others backs. Chibnal had the Angels look at eachother multiple times. So Moffat screwed up the Angels, but no where near as bad as Chibnal did now.

[@ishaandw]

I really liked Village of the Angels because they just keep throwing weeping angels at us

[@yeetereliter680]

What was I doing that was more important that listening to ur doctor who podcast? Watching doctor who

[@Lenny-ue8hk]

I do think we knew by this point the division was not a time lord only organisation, since Kavanista is a member

[@regiman222]

4:23 The Division, not the Time Lords, but other than that those last 2 statements are accurate

[@jamesstewart7736]

Raise your hands if you tried blinking with one eye and then did a big blink with both eyes straight afterwards 🖐🏻😂

[@NitroIndigo]

I thought weeping angels were invincible while they're statues.

[@Hypershock93]

In true Chibnall fashion, this episode is just a combination of earlier ones (Flesh & Stone/Time of Angels and Hide, with touches of Evolution of the Daleks and Utopia)

[@Yan_Alkovic]

31:15 Am I the only one who thinks that this guy looks like one of the Jews at the bazaar played by Eric Idle in The Life of Brian?

[@bilbobaginsk4626]

I think they're saying the doctor originally was a weeping angel that was experimented on to unlock the statue mode. perhaps old kinetic energy of dormancy has a level of resistance. Perhaps there like interdimensional white blood cells.

[@jons355]

Why was the village quantum separated in 1901? Surely the people they're interested in (Claire and the Doctor) are in the village in 1967?

[@boltpanther5862]

I feel quite strongly that a better angle to go with in this episode (if we are keeping the basic concept) would be to slice out Claire as a superfluous character, and manage to write in that the angel had possessed Yaz. That also would have explained what was happening with Episode 3....and cut one of the many extra storylines we are trying to juggle. All you would have to do is invent a reason to get them in the village, but that's easily done in Doctor Who logic (turning up in random locations is the general MO)? Then just have the Professor researching general supernatural goings on etc.....it wouldn't have been that hard. I don't know....this episode was just so meh to me. Omg Emo Music from MySpace and making awful music videos...that brings me back so much :')

[@testchannelpleaseignore2452]

I thought sending people back in time created a fixed point stopping the time lords from doing anything about it

[@beelez-xi1fi]

What happened to the 67 headstone counting vicar? Shouldn't he have been teaming up with Yaz and Dan and Jericho once he was sent back to the early 1900s?

[@wardjunior1450]

An angel can’t send you back twice. You’ve got no more time energy to feed off.

[@adamburke4738]

When have we ever seen someone be touched by an Angel twice? I'm really confused by Jay's point here.

[@wardjunior1450]

@@adamburke4738 exactly.

[@adamburke4738]

@@wardjunior1450 And honestly, this episode is the best of Flux so far.

[@wubzy099]

Imagine just getting a bunch of mannequins situated at each window with sunnies on and wigs so they look like actual humans and the angels just never move again.

[@pwaaoolhtims4344]

I'd just like to note, space isn't out of time

[@Roboshi2007]

I feel like the weeping angels are like a child hat they took off Moffat because someone saw a black eye on them and now they're in a foster home where they get beaten regularly

[@hatboxphahtom1262]

It feels like a slight missed opportunity cause, since it's kind of insinuated that the angels are either not of this universe or older than the universe, I was thinking that's gonna be how the angels play into this but Nah they just working some minimum wage job for big spooky timelord CIA

[@TRGOTSVODS]

stu

[@582time]

I'm surprised this episode isn't named "village of stone". Also wait I thought all the time lords were dead or is it just galifray is destroyer and a few time lords survived.

[@carealoo744]

I really want to see what would happen if you just threw paint over the angel or just a blanket or something. Would it then be able to move?

[@gemodorgon]

If you entirely cover it, maybe?

[@niek024]

I would strongly advise against doing that.

[@shortangel333]

For your writing stream, I know November 23rd 1963 is a date that pops up A LOT but another date that is also overused is December 31st 1999 - January 1st 2000 and I beg you not to do it then either.

[@MattC-ue7ve]

The other thing is that it's not very impactful that the girl is the old lady because it was assumed that she wouldn't get out - once you've been zapped you are stuck and it's been that way with everyone before her. Also why is the girl so messed up? She is not scared at all by any of this even when she watches 2 people die.

[@royhay5741]

A mirror shouldn't work because that means an Angel couldn't look at any part of its body

[@jesspetty8163]

who in the right mind is calling it the best episode?

[@KeplersDream]

There's one critical point which I feel you're all missing... The Flux is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

[@lachieechoecho]

I’ve been trying to remember someone being touched by an angel more than once, but I can’t. Can anyone set me straight on this?

[@MyNameIsExci]

It's central to the plot of Angels Take Manhattan if I remember correctly.

[@WaywardShip32]

Yeah Rory gets touched like 3 times in that episode

[@lachieechoecho]

@@MyNameIsExci thanks. I haven’t watched that episode since it was first broadcast. I do remember the Statue of Liberty being an angel though. Even though I wish I could forget that bit!

[@tgoas3503]

Amy and Rory were both touched multiple times in Angels take Manhattan I believe, fairly sure the Doctor has been over multiple stories as well.

[@Yan_Alkovic]

I'm pretty sure the episode implied that these angels are just one group, not every single Weeping Angel in existence. Also, I will never say that this episode is _good,_ it's simply the best of the season for me, because unlike the previous episodes, which had nothing but bad writing, this one had bad writing AND a lovely creepy, tense atmosphere and lots of potential for improvement! That's literally all one has to go off of in this day and age...

[@ianbanks3016]

Stu really needs to sort his audio out.

[@liddad]

I'm willing to believe that noone surviving it twice is a result of it all happening inside this town that's taken outside of time, OR it's a result of them never having any potential time energy since they had only just been sent back and never had made any plans. I hope this writer comes back under RTD, it seems like all of the overarching plot points were the worst parts of this episode and the episode specific stuff was pretty good.

[@MrBobthened]

The angels not getting through the door thing doesn’t bother me that much because the suspense works. And it’s just like how vampires are have inhuman strength and speed, the ability to walk up walls and across water, turn invisible, shapeshifter into any animal, and easily hypnotise you, but they can’t get into your house without permission. It’s silly if you think about it and it doesn’t make sense when you consider their other powers, but it just adds more suspense to the story and allows the characters time to breathe. It wouldn’t be as effective if the angels just immediately smashed through the door and sprinted downstairs, and the solutions you proposed like having 15 other characters standing at every window in the house would in my opinion just overcrowd the story and make it overly convoluted to explain what was happening.

[@vampiresquid2635]

ok but Peggy is creepy, her uncle dies and yeah he was sucky but she stares emotionlessly and says, "its ok, he was mean anyways" and then walks away dude?? u good??

[@emcdunna]

I like watching these break downs of nonsense when I've literally never seen any doctor who before

[@scottconwell2146]

Sooooo.... Usual "Chibnall as showrunner" mess. He starts something, bails, & jumps to something else. Some good elements, just never pulls them off, well. I'll watch this, at some point...shrugs. The BBC could've saved the money, or used it somewhere else. I am glad the Chibnall era is closed. Thanks for the review, you've sparred me!

[@SuperKillJoy15]

If Flux is supposed to be a more serious series, they should kill off a companion or two

[@PlatinumAltaria]

That would only have weight if any of the companions had a personality or development or a soul, which they don't. Kill Yaz though.

[@LoneGh0ste]

Honestly, the reaction to Flux was such fandom copium. It’s just as bad as the other Chibnall seasons.