Fighting Feedback & Learning from Your Mistakes | Study Tips

[@joreads8782]

Jean! Very well said! As someone who works as a lecturer your advice is spot on! By learning to deal with feedback of any kind it can also teach you what is constructive and what is not. I always recommend to my students to just ask the question about it if they dont understand. Sometimes markers are not given enough time to do the job so by talking to them its possible to clarify any concerns!!

[@juliequick5526]

You make an excellent point here. I am long past uni, but whilst mentoring younger employees in a business environment, resistance to feedback was one of the biggest problems. You got the point across really well and I hope the viewers that need this realise that once they graduate, an employer may be looking for someone with ideas and opinions, but also someone who can learn from others and integrate well. Defensively insisting you are right can come across as arrogance and will not enhance career prospects or build relationships needed to climb the ladder.

[@lachlanmoir79]

The feedback I have received from my tutors (only two assignments each, so far) in my first year of doing Classical Studies on the OU has been fantastic. I am slowly learning how to actually write an essay. I thought I knew what I was doing, but I really didn't. The feedback has completely transformed how I think about arguments and how I express my thoughts with the reality of the evidence.

[@JMShelley]

Thank you so much for this! Couldn't have come at a better time. Recently i failed an essay for one of my modules, and i was so upset because i'd put my heart and soul into it that i was blinded i was 'fighting feedback'. But looking over the notes, it seems pretty clear where i messed up. So hopefully, things can only improve the more i go over the feedback and learn from it. You are SO right! These teachers have been marking for years and have so much experience! They only want us to do well. So instead of seeing a low mark as 'failure' and 'not being good enough', i'm going to see it as 'how to improve'. Will be sending this out to a bunch of my friends who are currently going through similar situation at the moment. Thanks so much Jean again! Really insightful and has made me reflect a lot. x

[@kgreen2444]

this was really useful, especially about reading through feedback from all the other essays before writing a new one.

[@KittyAndTheBooks]

Super important video. In Germany we don't even get our essays back but you can go to your lecturer and ask to see them. Most people don't take advantage of that.

[@LucyTregidon]

I agree! There's a line between questioning your feedback (with the aim of understanding it better) and fighting it which its often tempting to cross but ultimately it just doesn't solve anything!

[@JeansThoughts]

Yes yes yes! Question don't fight/ignore ^_^

[@willowandwool]

This is so true and it's something I struggle with a lot, but it's nice to hear it put like this and I'll keep working on it!

[@JeansThoughts]

+Anthe Claes oh for sure, it doesn't feel natural, I always felt talking to my markers in person after made me feel more reassured and accepting of their feedback ^_^

[@flotocorazon]

I'm in the second year of my masters (i'm studying First World War, btw) and I know what you're talking about. Since march i've been in a bad time. The feedback I got on the first version of my text was not good and I got really really depressed. Now I'm feeling better and my supervisor also is getting better in dealing with this situation (she's pretty young). Hurts a lot, but I agree with you. I think if I follow the instructions I can get a really good work in the end. Love your series!

[@CharrFrears]

This is such a great video thanks for sharing! I got really upset when I got a result back lower than I expected (I later found out that even other tutors on the course think the one who marks it is too 'harsh') but instead of fighting it, I'm taking on her feedback and will hopefully do a lot better in the next assignment!

[@JeansThoughts]

Yay! Yes, and then if you work towards the harshest markers standards you'll wow all the others! I have complete faith in you ^_^

[@abis7461]

i really related to this video, I'm currently in Spain on an Erasmus exchange, and o my, the marking here is completely different.. that being aid I'm 'fighting' a mark i have just received.. normally i don't but there is is no constructive feedback at all! but the video was a inspiration for when im back home :)

[@TomesAndTravel]

Thank you for this video! In my first two university essays I got low 2:1's, which for the first attempts is probably ok. Unfortunately though there were about 4/5 tutors marking these essays and I seemed to have got the harshest ones (even one of the tutors marking constantly kept saying in lectures that he was ruthless and it certainly showed; everyone who had him marking didn't do as well as they expected). In some ways it's good because the feedback makes me work much harder to impress them next time, but it's also disappointing to know that, had someone else marked the essay, I may have done better. On my third essay I got a high 2:1, so I was much happier (I didn't yet have the feedback from the first two at that point, though, so it's strange that I did significantly better). The feedback for all the essays in the end was actually quite similar (lacking in analysis/depth of argument), so I expected to get the same marks in them all. Some tutors are definitely more generous than others, but I'm just going to continue working hard to improve each time and hopefully my essays will get better!

[@JeansThoughts]

Oh my gosh I know it's easy for me to say this but do not worry about low 2:1s in first year, it doesn't count towards your final grade so it's the prime time to learn. Pretty sure I had from firsts to 2:2s in first year. Plus it is definitely more upsetting but after a while I realised the harsher markers as long as they're fair are better and they're the people you want for dissertation because they push you. I had a dissertation supervisor in undergrad who said that's great keep doing what you're doing and I got a 2:1 for my diss but in my masters I had someone who told me what was good but also what was rubbish and I got a 1st! You sound to me like you're doing great for your first time writing academic essays and even if you improve a little every time you're doing it right. I even had complete downfalls in 3rd year cause things just didn't go my way but you can always come back from them and it's the feedback that helps you do that and stops you from becoming complacent ^_^!

[@saytanabooks9704]

The course that I was the most indignant, judgmental, and critical of in college was a poetry course taught by a first-year professor who assigned an unreasonable workload and who gave the most demanding, obtuse, and frustrating notes on the poetry assignments. I hated the course all through the semester and wrote a scathing and - honestly - super bitchy student eval. Three months after the course ended, I realized some of my best work in four years had come out of that class! I'd found some of my all-time favorite books through that professor. Yeah, she'd made mistakes as a first-year professor, but in retrospect they were little scheduling things that were understandable. Not being generous with her is a huge regret. She modeled for us the kind of creative output that I aspire to and now I wish I had someone demanding that workload of me every week! Also, since I'd let my frustration with the feedback I was getting cloud my enjoyment of the course, I definitely did not put my 100% into the assignments after the first month of the semester. I missed out on my investment.

[@ThesaurusToblerone]

I have a friend who refuses to read any of the comments she gets on her essays. She completely ignored all of the essay writing advice given in first year because she believed that she'd already mastered essay writing in year 12... Then she was surprised when she only got passes and credits (I think these would be 3rds and 2:2s in the UK?) Last year I made a reference to thesis statements and she was like "I don't know, I don't do those." So yeah. As for me, I get a bit annoyed by the idea that if you read and study your feedback, your marks will increase. This was the case for me when the feedback was on things relating to essay structure or not being specific enough, but then I started getting feedback related to my understanding of the topic that I couldn't apply to my next essay. I find that every essay has its own unique problems. I went from 84% on my first major history essay last year to 70% on the second one. I 100% believe I could still fail one if the topic was too hard.

[@JeansThoughts]

Yeah sounds like thirds - I had a friend like that and even though she was an intelligent woman she got caught up on points she could t prove but wanted to be true and going off on tangents despite being told repeatedly not to so never did as well as she was capable of :). And I do agree, sometimes initial written feedback can be not enough or not clear enough which is frustrating that's why after fighting past how uncomfortable I was using up lecturers time I always made them meet with me if their initial feedback sheet wasn't enough just so they could give me more detail. Usually after that it all made so much more sense haha.

[@somanytulips]

This is a helpful video, but I think there are points that need to be addressed that weren't. Fight the feedback IF YOU HAVE TO, please. If you are a diligent student, if you have checked your sources, read widely and structured your argument properly then I would suggest you investigate your mark thoroughly. Markers make mistakes, they are usually underpaid and overworked and have hundreds of essays to go through. This is particularly relevant for PhD tutors who teach first years students. Even if the professors/markers have decades of experience and research behind them, they might not necessarily be right. In my PG life, I have handed in essays that were marked in the 70s by one marker and in the low 50s by another. This happens when you argue passionately. Professors might feel passionate too (or even argue the opposite point in their research) and might feel inclined to mark your argument and not the quality of your argument. It is hard to stay unbiased when you feel passionate about a topic. Marks are important, especially if you want to stay in academia hoping for scholarships. You want to make sure you got what you deserve. Work as hard as you can, stay humble, read widely but please fight for your marks when necessary.

[@JeansThoughts]

+giulia g, I did say seek clarification and explanation if you feel the feedback is unclear or unfair. I think I was trying to also emphasise that you might be getting regularly criticised for similar things like structure and therefore stop ignoring your marker's advice. I think their is a difference between working with feedback and ignoring it and that's what this video was aiming to emphasise. I have seen so many fellow students get rubbish grades because they refused to take onboard feedback and go against professionals' advice because they were convinced they were right and in all of the examples I've seen they were not right, they needed the feedback, as did I. I will agree that in my experience student markers are usually way harsher than fully qualified academics. I've never had essays marked by student tutors that didn't atlas have a secondary marker who was a Dr so they should have agreed on a suitable mark. I had a friend who was a PhD student that was told by her secondary marker to increase almost all of the grades she initially gave. But by all means fight marks you feel are unfair. I think fighting feedback is different though. Like fighting against someone telling you 'you go off on irrelevant tangents' or 'you don't have enough proof for the argument' that's feedback, and is something you should take onboard for the future, not a mark :). If the feedback seems ridiculous questioning it is exactly what you should do but in my experience that is rare and most people suffer from the problem I discussed in the video not the other way around :).

[@somanytulips]

+Jean Bookishthoughts I agree with what you said about recurrent negative feedback, this is why I specified 'if you are a diligent student". And yes, you are right, marks and feedback are indeed different, although they are connected and one is the result of the other. As a student, when questioning your marker you want to make sure you are 100% confident the problem is not yours and that takes a good degree of self-criticism. I always think: "if this is not publishable then is not good enough" and that usually does the trick. In my uni life, everyone I know has treated 'constructive feedback' with nothing but respect. I mean, if it makes you a better student, why wouldn't you? Also, thank you so much for talking about studying and about your phd journey, it is not a popular topic here on youtube. I am so happy someone is doing it in such a direct and approachable manner! :)

[@JeansThoughts]

+giulia g, I wish all of my peers listened to feedback as well as yours did then aha. People are so different and sometimes their own enemy instead of their own champion as I think we're both arguing they should be :).

[@nokiddingbrainless]

This is such great advice! I always used to have to remind myself of this A LOT. Now that I'm in uni, I'm mostly surprised at the high grades I'm getting so I haven't had any indignant reactions so far (I got into uni via an alternative route so I was told by a lot of people that I would probably do poorly, which I'm not, hence my surprise.) I do sometimes have the opposite though, where I'll get like a 7.5/10 for an essay and all it says for feedback will be something like "great work!" When that happens a lot it does get a little tricky because do I ask the lecturer for additional feedback then? I never do, because I don't want to seem ungrateful and 7.5/10 is a fine mark, but it's not 10/10 so CLEARLY there's room for improvement, right? I always kind of feel like asking for feedback is something you do only when your grade is really low, or when the feedback is unclear, but if there's only positive feedback, but the grade is still not top-notch, do you go and ask? I don't want to waste their time or anything...

[@JeansThoughts]

+nokiddingbrainless Noooooo, definitely always ask for feedback if you want it. These people do get paid by the university to teach (amongst other things) so you're entirely entitled to get feedback even if it's just what was a doing right so I can keep doing it! I get that it's hard though, I'm still nervous around scholars who have been doing this for a long time haha. But it is clear when someone isn't being ungrateful so don't worry about seeming it - they'll never think that. I think we worry too much about wasting lecturers time. Took me ages to get past that but honestly most people don't use their time and it is usually only an eager few who then do really well because they are constantly asking questions and discussing marks and essay points. Not that there is anything wrong with those people, they've cracked the system haha. Loads of my friends used to get annoyed at those people but I gradually realised that they were just annoyed because they weren't getting the same attention and honestly you only get the help if you ask for it at uni so I decided to join them :).

[@nokiddingbrainless]

***** Ahh, thank you so much, I'll remember that! Hahaha I am definitely one of those people. Although I don't usually go to ask extra feedback when I get a good mark (which I think I'll start doing now!) I do get resented by my fellow students quite a bit for being a 'teacher's pet.' I'm very passionate about my field, and I'm in a small class with mostly 'cool ironic' people so I guess it stands out a bit. But I don't really do anything to get special attention from teachers/lectureres except for like listening attentively and engaging in discussions and asking and aswering questions (which is what we're supposed to do, as most of my classes are discussion-based), so I don't really see how that's a bad thing hahaha.

[@BorichaConsumer]

I've never even heard of "marks." First mark, 2-1, 2-2. How does that work? We just get grades 0-100, and they correspond to a letter A-F.

[@JeansThoughts]

In the UK you get a final over all grade which is either a 1st, 2:1, 2:2, 3rd or less than that would be a fail :)

[@JeansThoughts]

oh also sorry - mark is just the word for grade in the UK

[@katiefrank7351]

I do the opposite. I get quite a lot of negative feedback (sometimes conflicting negatives like write more/write less) and tend to feel like a failure and utterly defeated. Do you have any tips for combatting those kinds of emotions? And for not giving up when you get negtive feedback no matter how hard you try?

[@JeansThoughts]

+Katie Williams I've definitely had that - like you use primary sources well here, badly here, or you've given too much detail here but not enough here it is so essay dependent sometimes we can make mistakes we don't usually make or it takes a while to be consistent in your work. Sometimes, more often than not, I found if I went to a lecturer for further feedback they would quite often, rather than just sit their and emphasise how badly I'd done, discuss with me what areas I had actually succeeded in or told me I had potentially here but had just missed the point. This always made me feel better. I also think I always felt most like a failure when I was generally down as well so obviously I advocate for doing things that make you happy and driven because a better state of mental health makes it easier to take onboard criticism. Not that I have an easy cure for that one because I've struggled with depression on and off for years and I know how hard it is to get past that negative haze. I'd make a list of all the things you've done and do right. Like you're saying where you wrote one essay to long the other too short (or a point wasn't enough or was too much i'm sure you know what I mean) - I would try and understand what you did in each and if there is a balance, maybe each essay can learn something from the other essay. If someone told you you generally have good English skills or your conclusions are clear (whatever it may be) take pride in those skills! Don't think of the things you did badly in as things you are bad at full stop but that you are at a certain starting point with and can improve on. I do find feedback can seem horrifying on paper because it is written in a stern manner and without the persons face in front of you but honestly it probably isn't as bad as you think. But the feedback is genuinely meant to help you. Small changes can make a massive difference and you are totally capable of learning if you've gotten to where you are already :). Also reminding yourself why you like your subject helps. You are clearly trying hard if you are trying new things and that's what the first couple of years of uni are all about. I've never been a straight A student and I almost failed a course on my masters but I came out of it OK :). I've felt like dropping out before, you're never alone and just savour the good moments!

[@katiefrank7351]

***** thank you so much! That was really helpful :)

[@SunriseFireberry]

I had one philosophy assignment where a grad student was paid to mark said work. The fellow was harsh & gave me C-. I took it to the Prof for regrading. She looked at it, said I had written good stuff, & changed the grade from C- to A. (I finished with A in the course.) Some Profs teach super easy courses where near everyone gets high numbers. Some Profs bell-curve the marks. At my uni, highest gets 80/100. If you you're in a class with better than usual amount good quality students, tough luck on getting the coveted 80. Some Profs joyfully give all students lousy numbers 'cause they "have standards", & the highest they've given is a middling 67. Failures are commonplace. These people are on a power trip. Some Profs hit you with negative criticism on rigid ideological grounds. Evidence backed up with numerous citations mean 0 to ideologues. These Profs simply say your sources were wrong across the board. Profs & other markers are human, & are not paragons of paradisal academic virtue. Students are gonna run into all kinds.

[@JeansThoughts]

I'm pretty sure I didn't call them paragons of paradisal academic virtue :')! This has nothing to do with ideologies and I am absolutely certain some markers are harsher than others but when you finish uni if you go into academia your research is constantly under peer review so you need to prepare for that. I'm talking about genuine feedback. If every or most markers you have are telling you you have structural problems and your essays are therefore hard to follow? In that case stop ignoring their constructive feedback and learn from your mistakes. Hypothetically.

[@SunriseFireberry]

You didn't call 'em paragons. My point at the end was that students are gonna run into all different kinds 'n types of very human Profs. You were talking re criticism of papers & such. In a minority of cases, a student will run into an ideologue who'll critique on ideological grounds. They consider what they say to be constructive feedback. Peer review & constructive criticism was part of what the 20thC UK literary group the Inklings was all about. This process was covered in The Company They Keep by Diana P. Glyer.