Jehovah's Witnesses v. Scientology - Cedars' vlog no. 78

[@OwenMorganTelltale]

My mom was physically abused by my dad, so we know all about the rules pertaining to separation and divorce. Most ex witnesses don't actually get that right, but you did of course. Haha. The 3 reasons for separation: willful physical nonsupport (wont get a job), willful spiritual nonsupport (tries to stop you from going to meetings), and physical abuse are grounds for separation but not divorce or remarriage. Cheating is the only ground for divorce and remarriage

[@RitaMalikfour]

Telltale if a husband will do all these things ha I believe he will cheat too. Just a matter of catching him

[@jimbobaggans1564]

Yeah, catching him but you had better have 2 eye witnesses. Lol

[@anon8109]

Scientology is worse than you think. While you got most of it right, saying that children of scientologists are not systematically abused is a big error. They are sent to scientology schools where they are denied a real education and spend most of their day studying Hubbard's writings. Most never get to finish high school and are under tremendous pressure to join the sea org as teenagers. You can learn more about how these children are treated at exscientologykids.com.

[@LloydEvans]

anon8109 Thank you for filling in my lack of knowledge in this area. I'm always a little nervous about using the word "abuse" in relation to children if it isn't sex abuse I'm talking about, but I agree that child indoctrination and the stifling of a young one's intellectual growth is a form of abuse, even if it isn't as mentally and emotionally scarring as sexual molestation.

[@anon8109]

John Cedars Scientology is worse than you think. The Scientology corporation has a policy of protecting any member that gives it large donations. It also considers that since thetans are ageless, children are really just adults in a small body. Also, members are forbidden from using the courts or police against other members and must resolve all inter-member disputes through Scientology's mediation. Furthermore, the company hates bad PR, and so anytime a member does something that would make the company look bad, it prefers to hide this rather than allow the information to be publicized. Putting these all together leads to the company protecting any member who sexually abuses children as long as they are feeding big sums of money into the company. There was actually a big scandal a few years ago in Australia where Scientology was actually caught doing that.

[@LloydEvans]

anon8109 "Putting these all together leads to the company protecting any member who sexually abuses children as long as they are feeding big sums of money into the company. There was actually a big scandal a few years ago in Australia where Scientology was actually caught doing that." Can you give me a reference to this material? I was hitherto unaware of any claims of child abuse being concealed by Scientology.

[@anon8109]

John Cedars Here's a link radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/05/scientology-leader-jan-eastgate-arrested-australia-covering-child-sex-abuse/ Scientology is worse than you think. Here's a story about children held prisoner in a Scientology labor camp. blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_shane_kelsey_rpf.php

[@LloydEvans]

anon8109 Why do you keep repeating "Scientology is worse than you think" in every message? I already know Scientology is terrible. I merely point out in this video that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing more harm due to the fact that there are 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses and only 50,000 Scientologists.

[@postero58]

Great post John. My main concern is with the Jehovah's Witnesses. However I had to watch this because you are a creditable source in my eyes. I read quite a few of the replies and without a doubt the hidden exploitation and abuse of children in both cults is enough for me. I guarantee that I'll never watch another Tom Cruise or John Travolta movie as long as I live. Right after I click on Post, I'm going to throw away my DVD of "Top Gun".

[@katiecarroll4316]

This video is impressive. I must say, though, you are a bit off in the humiliation part of JWs vs Scientologist. The humiliation may be just for Sea Org members but JWs know exactly how to humiliate PUBLICLY their members. I was raised a JW & was very rebellious. I was disfellowshiped. To regain my family I had to go through the worst public shaming and dehumanizing treatment in order to get back in. Once back in and reunited with my family I walked out of the religion "disassociated". My family still talks to me and I them but I think that has more to do with our Hispanic family culture than the religious beliefs. I can say without a shadow of doubt that because of my upbringing I believe that NO religion is right and only on an individual private level can one connect with God.

[@jony_b774]

Katie Carroll Damn right, I believe even in the bible it makes it clear that Jesus appreciates all and judges fairly in the same way

[@redryder210]

Okay, I'm ready for the HBO special on Jehovah's Witnesses. Congratulations on the efforts of ex-Scientology members, it seems to be very effective. Maybe it's the Apostate Army's turn?

[@wwaitkus]

Red Ryder HBO hasn't had one, but a scathing look at the Watchtower Organization can be found here: buy.hereliesthetruth.com/#about

[@desireemacias8362]

I understand :) and I also have my own family as well. I’ve been inactive for about 3 years now but I was contemplating coming back and my sister told me to watch your videos and to ask you some questions. But I understand you are busy thank you for your time. I will be doing my own research as well. Thank you!

[@freedom7146]

Going clear was an excellent documentary!!! Thanks for mentioning it John.

[@cosylife4936]

Lloyd, I would love to see these videos that were taken down by WT; maybe you could re upload in a different place like a private website for members only. There must be a way round the law surely?

[@jonsixtythree]

Your videos are very well done. Thank you for all your hard work.

[@Fibonaccifan]

You had forgotten to mention that L Ron Hubbard was a Science Fiction writer. I think it's hard to compare something so bizarre as Scientology with anything. I am of the belief just as there is individual mental illness there is also such a thing as institutional mental illness. Watchtower for example fits a narcissistic personality disorder type while Scientology fits something more like a schizotypal and sociopathic type of disorder. The culture of an organization filters out people who don't fit the values and culture of the system. Hence those who rise up into leadership positions will most reflect the culture. And if the culture is somewhat narcissistic then so will those who rise to run the organization. It becomes a self perpetuating thing. It also means that those to whom the system appeals, will likewise be narcissistic. One other point. C T Russell had only a 7th grade education yet the Watchtower repeatedly portrayed him baffling " higher criticism" i.e. the educated of society. If that isn't NPD I don't know what is!

[@LAWoman323213]

"Going Clear" is excellent! Leah Remini's autobiography and limited series on A&E are very interesting about her experience (and others) in Scientology.

[@DarthXenu]

A better comparison would be Mormonism and Scientology.

[@eratoisyourmuse659]

"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion." This is a quote made by L. Ron Hubbard as remembered by fellow sci-fi author, Harlen Ellison. He is attributed to making similar statements to various people going back to the 1940's.

[@sjbobkins9442]

Extremely well done John. I would love to see you do the tree and branches of the Millerites into Seventh-Day Adventism, Jehovah Witnesses via IBS adding the Worldwide Church of God in the 1930's.

[@rainbow7217]

Agreeded, that is your next assignment Lloyd. 😊 A actual visualization of how the WTBTS was birthed from all of the religious schisms. Brilliant!

[@cosylife4936]

Sounds amazingly interesting. I’m JW and would love to know about that especially where Watchtower came from. All I know is Russel, into Rutherford etc

[@daniboy9198]

Awesome, in-depth video! 👍

[@JRizoli-uj3zz]

As an exJw I would say that you are pretty much right here for saying the Jw's are worse but for different reasons and that one reason is because GOD is in the equation for the JW's. The Scientologist use a way different means to come after ex members. The JW's let the ex members go and say see you later. The Scientologist will blackmail, use deceit, lies, slander and even use forgery to get back at the ex-member. They will resort to any means to get back at an ex member. You make the point that this is among the Sea Org members which may be true BUT it still happens and others in the group need to abide by those rules of shunning. It is true that the JW's usually have a more intricate shunning damage but no less it happens with the Scientologist also whether a member is in the sea org or not. I will say that the worst part of the JW's experience is the fact that they think GOD is the one they are being shunned from. This obviously is mentally worse than Scientology shunning. The JW's look at the Watchtower as being the "ORACLE of God" ( 2 Sam 16:23 ) so what comes out of that "ORACLE" has yet to be seen and it could be mass suicide or anything worse like a physical resistance using violence, this has happened with the Mormons, the Mountain Meadows Massacre is a good example as was "Blood Libel" that came from the living "oracles" of that Mormon religion of crazies. Scientology has nothing to do with God. With the JW"s, GOD is in the equation for losing everlasting life at least in their eyes. BUT again, the Scientologist look at L Ron Hubbard as being almost a God himself in a different way, so to leave that group is almost like leaving God....but in human terminology because the Scientologist are the supposed holders to save the earth and mankind....Ha, Ha.. So in conclusion, the Scientologist use a means to get back at ex-members that can be nothing short of murder, the JW's use being thrown out of the religion and separated from God himself as a worse control method, that is in my opinion much worse mentally. Lets face it, who wants to be in a lot with the devil and his angels? Having that hang over your head doesn't make for a good nights sleep.....But on the good side, understanding that the Watchtower is using the techniques of a false prophet using FEAR ( Duet 18:22 ) as a motivator, one is glad being out of that group realizing that that organizational judgement will be severe as is brought out in Mat 24:48-49 as being the evil slave.....dealt with by God himself. Finally presumptuousness and arrogance will be repaid.

[@iammontecristo]

I watched Going Clear and I actually thanked my parents for not raising me in Scientology

[@shana2712]

I hope "Going Clear" will get shown soon on UK tv. It's a good documentary.

[@t-streetmusicstudio6749]

Hi John . Again great Video. I’m still in, but fading fast. Just to say that I know that the Watchtower Do in fact have a team of brothers checking the internet for Apostate videos and this includes the Dark net too! Also if any one s see’s anything on the net they are encouraged to bring to the elders or branches attention. Also hot straight from the press at the meeting recently all Witnesses have been given a form to sign direct from the Governing Body to sign a Waiver giving them full control of all your person information and future information they hold on you. They can do what ever they want with that info for an indefinite period!!!! And the funny thing is the elders said there it’s nothing to worry about but you MUST SIGN IT!! When I refused they told me if I don’t sign it they well inform the branch office and let them know in a threading manner. I did not sign the form and put it in the fire at home. Clearly something has happened at head office, they might have been sued for using someone’s info and now are trying to close all loop holes and take full control of every witnesses info. Please share this info mate ASAP. Keep it up.

[@johnbull5394]

Under the new GDPR rules (in the EU at least), such contract would not be legally binding. I'm fairly sure the GDPR allows you to change your mind and withdraw consent previously given. Having said this, I have noticed a number of organisations are still flouting the rules; even Yahoo is using opt-out options for data sharing rather than the mandatory opt-in they should be using, so I expect the Watchtower will be equally unlawful.

[@ElliFordyce]

PS: Brutality in Scientology is not experienced by outer-level staffs or by public. It is a Sea Org issue, where the truest true believers are and sometimes "born-in" members.

[@thunderousapplause]

thank you for informing us. i will help spread the word. my only prior awareness of the watchtower cult was that the michael jackson fam and prince were witnesses. i had no idea abt the omnipotent interpreters of jehovah's word and the subsequent abuses that fostered. wow. awakening frm my own stupor of life in the ramtha cult has compelled me to learn about all cults and the people that escape their invisible mind-drenching clutches.

[@Caveman1918]

I can strong recommend to also look into narcissistic personality disorder (KZbin on Sam Vaknin, who is an authority in that field) and you will understand the dynamics how Wt is going after its dissonants and controlling its members

[@LaStriata]

You should seriously add "The Exclusive Brethren - Cult Documentary" to your list. I think you ought to do a comparitive video of the two if time and patience permit you, as I see incredible similarities between the two, only I think the Brethren are actually even more oppressive (though the numbers are probably in the JWs favour).

[@amb163]

Going Clear is fantastic.

[@webyourstuff1]

You did a marvelous and conscientious study about Scientology. I'd say you are 92% correct. The differences I found amount to your experience in another cult. I found this viewpoint interesting and not at all offensive. I was amused by the idea that you think the Scientology Xenu story is more interesting than the Mormon story. The Mormon story is old hat to you, just as Xenu is old hat to me. Speaking of Xenu, I disagree that that is what Scientology is about. Xenu is merely one story on one course. Scientology (at least when I got in) is more about helping yourself and others improve life circumstance. Today it has become gather up money and give it to David Miscavige.

[@LloydEvans]

webyourstuff1 Thanks! I'll gladly take 92%! ;)

[@jamieangel3766]

wonder where they learned that from?

[@belladonna70]

thank you for this

[@ducetbomb]

There is child labor in Scientology. Jenna Miscavige Hill, book "Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape" is all about children growing up in the church. they are required to be in Scientology schools, where they are brain washed into only Scientology materials. As for the married members, those in the sea org, while married are not allowed to have children. married couples are kept separate, for days to years. Those not in sea org, that are not celebrities, are told to put their children into the schools. at the school the children are separate from parents for months at a time, and start as young as 3 years old. They only go home on holidays, Scientology approves of. the medical treatments are fie so long as no medication is given. Only Scientologists healers and auditors are allowed to give any medication, usually only vitamins. Scientologists avoid hospitals at all cost. As for the damage of the size of the cult, yes currently JW is larger, but as recent as 2007 Scientology was much larger, at an estimated 2 million at their peak in the 1995ish. Anonymous, the internet, and ex-members speaking out, 2005ish, with the death of Lisa from lack of medical care, is part of the reason why the public now know.

[@laus7504]

I get to leave the 1st comment? When HBO debuted "Going Clear" it was all over the local news here in S. Calif. I knew a little bit about Scientology before and from the Anonymous protests and info on the internet. Now that the movie came out, I've become fascinated with the topic. I don't have HBO and I really, really want to see the documentary. LOL I tried searching for it on KZbin and with Google, but only the trailer is available. I am not much of a book reader. Although I am a voracious reader of stuff on the web. Finally it occurred to me to buy Lawrence Wright's book Kindle version. Amazon didn't disappoint me. It took me 2 days to read the entire book (a real page-turner). I hear the movie will be available on Vimeo in September after everyone paying for HBO gets a chance to see it, which is understandable. I will pay to stream it then. One key difference to me as an outsider is that Jehovah's Witnesses are faced criticism and skepticism when they go door to door. Scientology orders people to avoid any "potential trouble source" that might introduce doubt. Also, the JW's seem to be ethical people. They don't get all pissed off if you accidently wish them a Merry Christmas or Happy Birthday. They just smile and say, you have a good day too. The kids still stand for the Pledge, but don't recite it. This is the first video I've watched for this channel. After I hit "post", I'm going see what other videos you have. I'd like to learn more about the JW's. I've know a lot of them in my lifetime and have had some interesting conversations when woman came by to see me like once a week. I'd get out my Pope John Paul II-approved New American Bible with many, many footnotes and summaries that add the missing context, the style each book was written in, what the geopolitical climate was like at the time they were written, etc. I am able to politely tell both the JW's and the LDS (Mormons) when they come to the door that I respect their right to have their beliefs, but that I believe in The Trinity, which they do not. That's a basic theological difference they really can't get around. But it is a basic tenet of orthodox Christianity every legitimate Christian denomination is built upon. Not to dispute whether or not they are authentic Christians. They can identify as such if they like, though. I've never tried to assert that they aren't real Christians or anything like that. Anyway, great video with a lot of info!

[@jeneb52]

L Ron Hubbard wrote a sci-fi book and when he saw that he could get money for his book he created a following. Check out the congressional investigation with his son, it's very interesting. HE even says his dad went crazy, but it's the guy who took over that is dangerous in what he does to the followers.

[@elenasimon1270]

Will we see you soon on Aftermath??? I think so.

[@kamrongrant]

For the most part you are on point but as a former JW I assumed you would have had a slightly better understanding of their beliefs. You weren't far off, though; I'm just being pedantic :P

[@truthseeker-jwnightmares4351]

Interesting video. Now that the WT has moved to equate the Organization and Jehovah as one in the same; perhaps "Jehovah" IE the Organization will start taking things in their own hands. Just a thought... especially as they are more and more exposed for the cult they truly are.

[@TracyLeaBeauty]

Have any of the governing body ever addressed any of your videos??? They must be aware that they exist! Right??

[@zedolvero4515]

As of 3/3/18 link does not work 😥

[@MrDenzal27]

JW worst there trying to turn people against gays not just not condone it. Attacking the way i dress and really rubbed me up the wrong way. Thanks for your insight and glad u found freedom. ;)

[@unirmiracle593]

If Scientologist don’t believe in God, then why they have a crucifix as their sign symbols?

[@LaStriata]

One other key difference: Scientology doesn't concern itself with the end of the world as the JWs do. In that respect, the JWs are more like Aum Shinrikyo (minus the sarin gas).

[@marknpm]

Though you correctly mention the division of Scientology into 'public' and Sea Org, Lloyd, there's also an intermediate level called 'staff' who mostly man the cult's Orgs (bigger branches) and missions (smaller ones). Though not cruelly exploited like the Sea Orgers (who have to sign a billion year contract) they still work long hours for a pittance, and are subjected to the illicit 'Freeloader Debt' if they ever try to leave. If you want to find out more about child abuse in the cult, there's Jenna Miscavige Hill's autobiographical account of growing up as a Scientologist in her book 'Beyond Belief'. Great to hear you think Miscavige's nasty racket is "on its last legs"; I'm sure plenty of the anti-Scientology activist community will be transferring their attentions to the JWs and the Governing Body when (not if) Hubbard's pernicious brainchild is no more :)

[@LloydEvans]

Mark NPM Thanks for that clarification on "staff" Mark. And I will check out Jenna Miscavige Hill's claims re. child abuse. :)

[@pfevrier01]

When I think Scientology.. Then..the names appear John Travolta and Tom Cruise...Money..Money Money....

[@eliaszuniga3385]

$$$$$$$$$$$😇😇😇😇

[@tsjasmine28]

You say that there is no basis to assume that the paradise earth is based on the bible but in Isaiah 65:17 it says that the biblical God will make a new heaven and a new earth and the things of the past will be forgotten.

[@emanchaparro]

I'm disfellowshipped and I've watched many vids from you and JWsrruggke and although I've experienced some shinning myself from my family that's a vague reason to disagree with a religion as is financial practices and other small things: I hear 1914, 607 BCE and the blood issue mentioned ..... But I hear no argument either biblical or "scientific against these three things most often mentioned.

[@DoverDaniel]

+Muriel Chaparro Child abuse policies my friend. Child abuse policies...Oh, and there is the little kids dying due to the prohibition of blood transfusion, without their consence of course....Also the domestic violence being viewed as a small problem, so women have to stay married to an abusive man. There is MUCH more, but don't belive me. Do some research,and if all this is not enough, well that's with you... I suggest you to start with the Royal Commission into child abuse.

[@laurenregnier3629]

Brad Zook also has a video of Jehovah's Witness versus Scientology . Check it out .

[@sunyellow703]

Could you give me your email, so I could ask you some questions without them being public?

[@gailcullinan]

I have followed Louis Theroux for years. Especially the most hated family in America, Phelps, also a cult

[@dennisadventure]

what do make a video aboudt mormmenisme

[@kathrynhagemeyer4742]

If anyone wants to learn more about Scientology from a former Sea Org member Chris Shelton is the best! Please watch some of his videos you will be shocked as to how truly awful Scientology is.

[@muircastle1]

i grew up as a jw ..pioneered full time 4 years,,,al the jaz..

[@alicecoupons]

we need to add the freaking multi-billion dollar mormon corp church..

[@slightlyconfused876]

Or as it could be called, Dumb and Dumber

[@gioiaferrante]

Lots of abuse in Scientology rap, you are forbidden medical treatment ... Id be happy to tell you @Lloyd Evans

[@sjbobkins9442]

On the Sea org, Billion year contract, $50 a month, work 6 1/2 days a week, women can't get pregnant, they are the grunts, the clergy in a church that only has a clergy for window dressing, so they

[@richardvsassoon5144]

Well I must apologize for my pathetic attempt at a coherent comment which resulted in some bizarre, copy and paste, mumbo jumbo...I will go sit in the corner for a while.

[@janicehussock649]

while your "leaders" are arguing who is the coolest dude, witness lawyers and writers are making huge advances in Wikipedia and, esp, simple Wikipedia cedars. billions of people watched it, every vanity Fair reader knew for decades . focus on wiki and simple english I have a strong gut feeling that a certain lawyer is lying it will take a superb legal and tactical mind to stop him.or her .leaning towards him .I am going to research all their lawyers on legal media. already have . briefest sketches. I know classmates who can advise how they tend to think and reason. I suspect that profs and teachers are furious that education was used to bolster destruction. I notice you never find any woman to praise. willing to talk to Penton and Penton alone

[@Rain-Peters]

ya,,a jehovahs witness debunk movie! that would be great,,

[@sjbobkins9442]

John get in touch with ToryMagoo44, she is wonderful and she would love to work with you, check out her channel, (as I have listed), great personality, courage over the top. She hangs around their Open To The Public testing center, telling her story to the public who walk in and out, warning them while being surrounded by Scientologists. Xenu is your boggy man you fear with Sc, the great Jah fills the role for J-Dubs

[@muircastle1]

mm not afraid,,,my dad is still plugging it.. he is being a duhh

[@emanchaparro]

Shunning *

[@meetmylife8681]

As being a JW I understand why you have a problem with some issues. The blood isseu is tricky. Doctors make you believe you need blood to survive, but only say that because it is easy and cheap. There is no data of people dying because of blood transfusion. So that's not fair. On divorcing, I have , not on biblecal ground, but now I can marry again without any problem. I can tell about more issues but it takes a lot of space. I think you need to do more and better research. There are a couple of things I do have a problem with how watchtower tries to learn us, but for me that is not such a big problem. If the organisation Watchtower is not after your money (that's clear right?), why do you think they make such An effort of reaching out to people? Think about that please? BTW I hate childabuse and I think the watchtower should be more open when a kid has been raped or something. Directly to the police.

[@LloydEvans]

There are more reasons to control people than simply taking their money. Sometimes it's purely about the power and control itself.

[@meetmylife8681]

There can be more reasons, off course, but I hardly believe it's controle. I say 'hardly', but I have been a JW for over 20 years now, I can assure you, it is not controle. Usually People try to controle other people for their own benefit, But there is no true benefit for that in our organisation.

[@LloydEvans]

So you're telling me, as a believing Jehovah's Witness, that your leaders can be trusted and they're not interested in controlling people? Even though they're willing to break up families through shunning when their followers stop following them, while simultaneously admitting they are imperfect and make mistakes? If you say so.

[@meetmylife8681]

John, I can honestly tell you that the organisation doesn't want that. They really try to prevent families from Breaking up. People choose for Them selfs. My parents aren't JW but I still see them.

[@meetmylife8681]

And about trusting our 'leaders', I have some issues, for example that they say that children should'nt study a high studie. If my kid has the potential, They are going to study. And some other stuff. But I have the complete trust that what the organisation try to accomplish, it is in our best interest, not in their best interest.