"Jesus had to be God to Atone for Sin" Really?

[@billschlegel1]

God tells humanity that the wages of sin is death: "You will certainly die". Mainstream Christianity talks back and says, "No God, I won't die. You die" Mainstream Christianity insists that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment. Mainstream Christians declare that Jesus was their substitute, but forget that Jesus did not pay the very penalty they themselves say is required.

[@chasesmith2441]

Our penalty is eternal conscious torment because we are morally bankrupt as sinners and can never pay the debt. Jesus Christ was sinless therefore the death alone was sufficient to pay for sin. He was declared to be the son of God by the resurrection from the dead, meaning that where Adam, a son of God, failed, leading to death, Jesus, THE Son of God, succeeded, leading to eternal life.

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

@@chasesmith2441 Why did Jesus use words like perish, destruction, destroy if he really meant eternal burning?

[@ken440]

@@chasesmith2441 "eternal punishing" would be torment for ever. But "eternal punishment" would be destruction with no resurrection hope.

[@LoveAndLiberty02]

Good points, Bill.

[@billschlegel1]

@@chasesmith2441 Hi, As mentioned in the podcast, there is no Scripture that describes what you just described (the Scripture describes something very different), and Jesus is not paying the debt of eternal conscious torment.

[@ken440]

And I just accepted it preached over a pulpit for more than 30 years. When I looked for it in scripture it just wasnt there. Instead I easily found the lamb of God, a lamb provided BY God, a lamb who's blood I can come under. A lamb who died on a passover no less. some even say a Jubilee passover. Thanks Bill.

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

Whoa!!! “God you die”. That is where deity of Christ leads. The traditions of men are a great deception. Great point Bill.

[@billschlegel1]

I think too, that another good point is, mainstream Christians insist that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment. They say Jesus was their substitute, but forget that Jesus did not pay the very penalty they require.

[@hxplxss1835]

No it isn't and it shows you have a flawed understanding of what death entails.

[@billschlegel1]

@@hxplxss1835 Hi. The Greeks (and other pagans, too) believed death was merely the separation of a soul from a body. That is not the biblical view. In the Bible, dead means dead, to not be alive.

[@huh2275]

@@billschlegel1 While I think that is a good point, I also think an opposing line of thinking could be that we, as sinful beings, deserve eternal punishment. But as Jesus was sinless, he need only taste it. Just as we need only taste evil to become corrupted and deserving of death. Make sense? Im unsure about the trinity but see no illogical reason for an eternal punishment of people. The stronger the punishment the stronger the deterrent. But I don't entirely rule out the possibility of non-eternal "torment".

[@Mckaule]

Eternal Life or eternal death. You either live forever or stay dead forever. It doesn't speak about feeling good or bad, being tormented or not being tormented. It speaks about life v.s death. To be dead is to cease from thinking, knowing, acting, feeling..

[@neweyz3396]

Amen Bill . Thanks for bringing this to the table ! ❤😊

[@ShemaHaTorah]

The point made from 14:40 to 15 mins is extremely powerful, well done!!

[@Icemario87]

I think I fell in love. What a gorgeous description text. A wonderful read!

[@mdk30]

Bill, please correct if you believe this to be incorrect, but my current understanding of scripture is that much confusion has been wrought upon Christianity by inserting the concept of "eternity" where the original word was "aion" or "eon." The original word and concept was not "everlasting" or "unending" but rather for a certain undetermined amount of time. This confusion factors into many false arguments that Christian tradition insists "must be true."

[@ken440]

I absolutely agree with that. Its yet another little confusion in a whole raft of lies by our true enemy, to make a mesh of small lies that hold together the religious tradition which gives us deity of Jesus/trinity. Blessings.

[@billschlegel1]

True. In the Gospel of John, for instance, "eternal life" is really "pertaining to a certain eon life", that is, the age to come, referring to kind/quality more than "never-ending" time. The hope of the Scriptures is, however, "raised immortal."

[@eddieyoung2104]

Thanks Bill, for breaking down the traditional doctrine, and showing some implications of it. So, from what you're saying, we can see it as God dying a temporary death, to save others dying an eternal death. Which isn't in any way a like for like substitution. What I always think about on this subject, is that Jesus died, yet we all still die. Therefore he didn't he didn't die for us in that sense. And if we change it and say, he was saving us from eternal death, then he should have died an eternal death, but didn't. So, neither way works. It all seems to hinge on Jesus having to pay our penalty, yet I don't see this idea in the Bible. Isaiah does say he was bruised for our iniquities, yet we can easily see that as him dying in order to redeem us from them.

[@billschlegel1]

I hope to do a podcast on Isaiah 53. I think the "bruised for our iniquities" has probably been misunderstood.

[@MrSimpoge]

Punishment for sin is death, Jesus died in our place. Jesus is God incarnate, so His life is limitless and can atone for all human life that ever was. Death is destroyed through the loving sacrifice of His own life. He would rather die the death we deserve than to be without us. Since death was destroyed through Christ, we need only accept the gift of grace and salvation. No man can earn their way into heaven, for all have sinned and fallen short. Except Christ, who took our very place so that we may live through Him. In short, sin = death. God became flesh and died in flesh in our place. Sin is now atoned for

[@MrSimpoge]

@@stevemisiaszek1524 my doctrine is from the Bible itself

[@Acts24.5]

Can I suggest you might want to spend some time listening to the words of the ressurcted Jesus on this matter in Rev 2 & 3. I think you might be surprised to find he does not agree with you.

[@MrSimpoge]

@@Acts24.5 the Bible is his word and it agrees with me since I get this doctrine from the Bible. Ironic, Satan did the same thing you’re doing

[@ken440]

​@@MrSimpogewhich satan did this? which one?

[@MrSimpoge]

@@ken440 cast doubt on God’s word

[@Kevin.Williams1965]

Jesus was the second Adam. Adam was not God.

[@chasesmith2441]

Adam means “man,” and Jesus wasn’t the “second Adam,” he was the Last Adam, for as in Adam (the first) all die, so in Christ (the last) shall all live

[@Kevin.Williams1965]

​@@chasesmith2441Allow me to clarify. Adam was the first man with no sin, at least in the beginning. Jesus was the last. That makes two.

[@ken440]

​@@chasesmith2441so by your wording ..."so as in christ (the last) all shall live" is what you said. And "christ" (greek "christos") means "anointed one," then as Acts2:36 shows us Jesus was "made Lord and anointed(christ)" then this indeed shows us Jesus is this anointed one who is that last Adam. It is written "by one man came sin and through sin death, so by one man has come life eternal."

[@drdarrylschroeder5691]

We all atone for our own sins individually by kharmic payment which includes further incarnations to perfection and ascension.

[@blissseeker4719]

No. Jesus still died for the sins of all those that believe in Him.

[@drdarrylschroeder5691]

@@blissseeker4719 Greetings. The early priesthood fabricated that in order to romanticise the new religion for a simple-minded populace. The true Teaching was brought by Makhimsih, Lord Buddha, who is one of the twelve Rays or Sons of GOD. Ascension must be individually EARNED after attaining the fifth-dimensional frequency of spiritual development after many lifetimes we have all signed up for on this Earth School. The metaphysical Laws of GOD are very strict. This applies to ALL religions, and is not exclusively a free gift for Christians only. Blessings - Rev Dr DHA Schroeder PhD/Ministry

[@blissseeker4719]

@@drdarrylschroeder5691 no, your buddha is a demon. You can not atone for your own sins for all have sinned. You are led astray brother.

[@ShemaHaTorah]

I come at this topic from a different persuasion, so I mean no offense in my critique. But really the whole argument of did Jesus the man die, or did the God/man have to die, is completely moot when we throw off all human philosophy and look to the Hebrew scriptures alone.. the idea of man (let alone God) being a substitutionary atonement for sin is completely greco-roman in origin and not from scripture. in the scriptures such a thing is completely immoral, and the aspect of human sacrifice for sin is an abomination.. not even animals were to be sacrificed as a sole entity to atone for willful sin (despite most christians thinking animal sacrifice in the Torah was just that,, but you won't find it. you can't go willfully sinning and then go sacrifice an animal in your place.. that concept is not in Torah, but Christians think it is because of their greco-roman view of Jesus as a sacrifice for sin).. Jews do not hesitate to reject the sacrifice of Jesus because such a concept is completely foreign to scripture... so the argument of wether the man jesus or god himself died on a cross for sins is itself an unscriptural argument and is itself based on human made up greco-roman philosophies and not the word of God.. just dump the whole substitutionary atonement concept all together, and the human sacrifice idea, and you'll be in a much better place instead of trying to argue from within the lie itself

[@billschlegel1]

Your points are well taken. The New Testament record is clear, that the man Jesus of Nazareth was put to death and raised from the dead by God, and there was purpose involved in his death and resurrection. Penal substitution in the way it is understood and presented by mainstream Christianity, was/is not that purpose.

[@ShemaHaTorah]

@@billschlegel1 Being Jewish by faith and holding to divine providence, I most assuredly think the death of the historical Jesus had a divine purpose, as did ALL the 100,000 Jewish men who were crucified for their faithfulness to Torah .. I just think that Paul was one of the first to get that purpose wrong, and added his own philosophy (rooted in the mystery religions that originated from Tarsus where he was from), much like the mainstream Christianity you speak of.. meanwhile the first 'unitarians', the Ebionites who saw Yeshua as an anointed teacher, a Rabbi (Pharisee) who was preparing Israel for their long road of exile that was to soon come,, they had it much more correct and in line with their Hebrew scriptures.. that's why they excommunicated Paul from Israel, and the whole Jewish community (including the 'church' led by James) cast him off as an apostate .. mainly because of Paul's apostasy of turning the death of the anointed teacher Yeshua, into a greco-roman human sacrifice .. unfortunately much of christianity, being greco-roman, followed the way of Paul rather then the Ebionites.

[@ken440]

​@@ShemaHaTorahGood to get a Jewish voice in the discussion. And logical points made from your perspective, and even some christians blame Paul for straying, I dont. What do you think of the concept that Jesus is called "the lamb of God" and was killed associated to a passover? The christian concept is that it is the blood of the lamb which covers sin, and all who respond and come under that blood in faith are saved. Not by Jesus having to be God, (as Bill explains) but the lamb is provided by the Father, so we are looking at the salvation coming FROM the father, THROUGH the lamb, and applies to ALL who come under the sprinkled blood BY THEIR FREE WILL OBEDIENCE. This salvation was therefore "foreshadowed" in your Passover, and in the foreshadow of Joseph raised and empowered by Pharaoh, even though he was a lowly servant, who went on to forgive his own brothers and save his own people. Jesus being the ultimate lamb not only saves his own, but he eliminates the separation of the gentiles, fulfilling the Abrahamic promise of Abraham being father of "many nations."

[@ShemaHaTorah]

@@ken440 Keep in mind that the Lamb of God concept in the gospels is exclusive only in John, its not in the synoptic gospels. Why? Because John is changing the gospel story to fit his gnostic audience that needs some re-judaizing. He does not care about historical details, just typology and symbology. That is why John contradicts the synoptic gospels and does NOT have a ‘last super’ passover meal, he removes it, and then he makes Jesus die on the passover slaughtering day (before the passover meal was to take place). . Jonn does this because he wants to make Jesus the passover lamb. The other gospels could care less about that… the thing Is, John is grossly misinformed and has no clue about the Torah or the passover. There is NOT a single ‘lamb’ sacrifice in all of Torah prescribed to atone for willful sins.. Look it up it does not exist. Also, the passover lamb was a year old. Go online and look at the picture of a 1 year old male ‘lamb’ and tell me what you see.. Yeah you see a nearly full grown Ram.. the reason we Jews killed a nearly one year old lamb/ram on passover was because THAT was the symbol of Egypt and Pharoahs God,, he was a Ram’s head god. And the month of Nisan, the day passover took place, was the high holy day of the pagan deity.. So God commanded his people to kill a ram, as a sign to Egypt that there god is being slaughtered by YHWH. And so we killed it in the Egytpians presence and put the blood on our door posts.. It was a sign of YHWH’s victory of Pahroah .. it had nothing to do with forgiveness of sins. That is all christian myth and fabrication, that sounds good to those uneducated in the Torah, but is simply not the truth… NOTE: I was a christian for 40 years, in seminary and well trained.. before I became a Jew. . So I do know all the christian dogma that you would likely throw my way.. But I appreciate the dialogue and discussion. And prefer to speak with unitarian christians because they are the most reasonable and logical and not engrossed in idolatry worshiping a man as God. I’m still studying the new testament after many decades of studying it in search of the historical Jesus

[@ken440]

@@ShemaHaTorah how did you grasp that i was trinitarian? i too was a std evangelical for 38 years, and now for almost seven years am an outspoken unitarian. I understand your point on the age of ram lamb, but think you might be unjustly criticizing John (and usually Paul as well therefore as they speak together) but in focussing on "saving from our sins" we get tangled up with this "atonement by God dying" falsehood that christian churchy dogma has propagated. I agree with the symbolism idea you explain, regarding the ram of egypt. But as Gen3:15 tells us a man descended from Eve will "bruise the head" of the evil one, and Jesus was "sent to destroy the works of the devil" (works being the fruit of the rebellious plans = head). So rather than focus on sin by individuals and therefore by numeric multiplication see a huge amount of "sins" if we consider Adams "grasping at equality with God" ("now they will be just like us") as being what caught mankind "in a state of slavery to sin" then (just as Israel had been caught in slavery) we can see all humans, if they accept the blood covering, can now come out of that slavery to sin(full state). The blood, from the "lamb of God" can therefore also be seen as the power which disempowers those pagan gods (as you pointed out). Which I see is the meta narative of all the hebrew and christian scripture. To undo the damage done by "ha satan" in rebellion which man got caught up in due to the first Adam, who put his will ahead of Gods. The messiah promised in Gen3:15, distilled further in Deut18:18 and the prophets, as a Jewish man, demonstrated for 2000yrs at each Passover (as a foreshadow) is fulfilled in Jesus, died and raised and glorified in power and made 2iC yet to be consummated in the parousia, and after that come full circle after 1000yrs of rule from Jerusalem, to when God can again be "all in all" (1cor15:28) as portrayed in Rev21/22. Eden restored, rebellion crushed. Isnt that what Jewish scripture points to? A set aside people to "guard the seed" from the gods of the Babel cast off people, leading to that promised seed destroying the satans rebellion? A last Adam who is obedient in contrast to the first Adams willful disobedience?

[@Plisken65]

Isaiah 55:8 "God's ways are not our ways." Answers your whole thesis.

[@crysaliq]

Isaiah 53: "(1) Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (2) For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. (3) He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (4) Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. (5) But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. (9) And they made His grave with the wicked-But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. (11) He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors." Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, and bore those very iniquities in His Passion. He died to take the punishment we deserved, which would've meant Hellfire if it continued past death. But since Jesus was righteous, His time in Hell was not suffering, and was also preempted with God raising Him from the dead, where He didn't see corruption.

[@crysaliq]

Jesus is ALSO not just any ordinary man. He is the sinless very only begotten Son of God, begotten from the eternally existent Word of God without beginning, by whom God made all things that have ever been made. He is NOT on the same level as all mankind, but as I've heard before, "The ground at the foot of the cross is level", wherein Jesus is above us all, and we all look up to Him.

[@crysaliq]

Jesus is also worthy of worship, as we know from Hebrews 1, "And when He bringeth the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'" No man is worthy of worship other than Jesus, so He stands alone in this regard. He is different than us all, He is not our equal.

[@crysaliq]

So IN this, He could definitely make atonement FOR our sins, in being someone beyond mere normal man, being the representative FOR all mankind thereby.

[@ken440]

@@crysaliq What was special about the day that Jesus was crucified?..... Passover. What is Jesus called? .....among the titles is "LAMB OF GOD." What did people have to do at first Passover? ...... obey Gods word and come under the blood of a lamb provided by father of household, by believing and doing so. Faith. (any who did not come under the blood were not covered) How are we saved? .... by faith in the shed blood of Jesus, the christ (greek for "anointed one") Summing up. God provides the lamb. So God as father saves His human family. Jesus IS THAT lamb, so is the provision of salvation. All who recognize that and call on the "name" (authority) are saved. That is saved BY GOD THROUGH Gods provision. WE save ourselves by understanding that and acting on it, which is faith in the promise of the blood. The blood of the lamb. A lamb, Gods human son crucified on a passover. God saves, by providing the creature. The creature saves as the provision by God. We are saved if we respond to the provided blood covering and "come under its authority," by faith. The same kind of man as Adam, made perfect, except this one remained obedient when tempted, the perfect lamb. yet you seem to hold him as being some sort of divine being before his birth? Is he not the "last Adam" and therefore the "by one man came life in the ages to come." ?? i.e. by one man Adam came death, and by the last Adam comes life. first and last means that?

[@billschlegel1]

Hi. The Apostle Paul is quite clear. The truth is, the one mediator between God and humanity is the man Christ Jesus. Not a God, or God-man, or human nature, but a man Christ Jesus. Any other supposed claim to be the mediator between God and humanity is an imposter. 1 Tim. 2:4-5.

[@Zipfreer]

Vicarious Atonement: Akiva Judaism conceals, teaches of it and Christianity distorts

[@billschlegel1]

Interesting. Can you direct to any sources?

[@milanterzic859]

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8. So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Hebrews 9:28. Why is it that there have throughout the ages been people who have searched for novelties? They cannot bear to be under orthodox teaching? Christ's death for all is a core Christian teaching.

[@ken440]

What you say here unitarians believe as well. I for one believe what you just said from Romans. Christ did die for all, knowing what he was doing. As promised in Gen3:15 and Deut18:18, a messiah descended from Eve, a brethren of Israel ( sounds human). So why make a critical comment about this teaching video? Unitarians accept what you said, the christ is the salvation from sin, for all who call on his name (authority). I would assume you know what "christ" means, and not make the mistake of so many who make some sort of assumption it means God. "Christ" is the transliterated greek word "christos" which means "anointed" So "Jesus christ" means Jesus anointed. "Christ Jesus" means anointed Jesus. "The christ" means "the anointed (one)" And the hebrew word meshiach transliterated "messiah" has exactly the same meaning, but in hebrew, not greek. This anointed one is the "only begotten son OF God." It by its meaning means one anointed BY God. A representative. It doesnt say that he is God, it says there, in the very meaning of the word "anointed," that he is a recipient of an anointing FROM ONE HIGHER! i.e. Gods anointed servant. Why cling to orthodoxy, it didnt do any good for those majority at the flood, or the orthodoxy at Babel, or the orthodoxy that opposed Elijah on mt Carmel, or the orthodoxy of the jews when they killed Jesus and persecuted the first christians. Nor at Luthers reformation did the orthodoxy majority show the truth of God. On fact your statement about orthodoxy being correct is very unbiblical, and you are right, in all ages there is those who point out the error of religious tradition. Here at the end of this age its happening again, and prophecy even foretells it. Beware where you place your trust.

[@billschlegel1]

As the Romans verse you quoted, and countless others as well declare, Christ died. Not God. In the Bible, Christ is never God. Christ means someone who is anointed (by God). Christ is not a title for deity.

[@milanterzic859]

@@billschlegel1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1-3. Here John calls Jesus God and He is declared to have one of the attributes of God, the power to create. You are not going to add a lying "a" in front of the word "god" like the Jehovah's Witnesses? There are many other verses like this. Of course if you start with an interpretation of the Bible first then go looking for verses to support it, you can come up with any meaning you like.

[@billschlegel1]

@@milanterzic859 When you read John 1:1 and John 1:2, note the word God appears 3 times. In all three cases God means the Father. In the Gospel of John, God is always the Father. If you want to know what the author meant when he wrote "and the Word was God", read the rest of the Book. You can focus in on John 14:6-20 if you have to. The man Christ Jesus of Nazareth was God (at work in speech and works). Keep in mind, too, that the beginning of John 1 is a new beginning, parallel in some ways but different from the Genesis beginning. I've answered you, now, what do you think of John 17:(1)-3 "Father...this is eternal life, to know you THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus the Messiah whom you have sent". Do you believe Jesus was telling the truth, that the Father is the only true God? Cf. also John 20:30-31 where the author tells us the reason he recorded the signs Jesus did (NOT to believe that Jesus is God)

[@milanterzic859]

@@billschlegel1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was ****with**** God, and the Word was God. 2 He was ****with**** God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1-3. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son. John 1:14. Dear sir, you must have a problem with English comprehension. Twice the word "with" is used. If I am with my wife, we are together. My wife is not me. Verse 14 identifies who the Word is. It is Jesus. But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” 10 He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.” Hebrews 1:8-12. Here not only is Jesus called God but also Lord. Quoting from Psalm 95, He is Jehovah. There are many other texts like this but if you are convinced that mainstream Christians are devils and that accepting their teachings causes you to lose your reward, then no amount of texts will do. I take it you are a Christadelphian?

[@Mckaule]

I thought yesterday while driving that the error many christians do is that they think they were created by GOD. GOD does not have to create every human because He had created one in the beginning and that was it. All other humans were born OUT OF this ONE. And the same is with all living creatures. They all procreate. Me and all of you were not created by God. Everyone of us is unique because there are uncountable number of different gene combinations depending on our ancestors and all their life experience. Who we are and all our behavior is coded in the blood. Soul is in the blood. At the moment of conception a new soul/person is created, in other words comes into this world. Now, concerning Jesus, he was son of David, so Davids blood must be involved. He was human being with human soul and every human has a human spirit, that's why all of us are called human beings. We know how people think because we think just like them, like it's written "who knows what belongs to man if not the spirit of a man". We don't know how donkeys think because we have a human spirit, not donkey spirit and vice versa. Jesus knew how people think and that's why it's said that he trusted no one. Not because he was God in the flesh, but he was human being like us and knew how corrupt nature of a fallen Adam is because he had inherited the very same nature. I don't know what happened in the womb of Mary but I believe that Jesus is called second Adam because God was personally involved in Jesus's creation in the womb ("the Spirit of Almighty will overshadow you.."). He took the seed of David and He did something with it. Like Adam was created and all other humans were born out of him and God is not personally creating all of us, so Jesus is the second human being whom God created, but not out of the dust but he took the seed of David and changed something in it. Just for thought.. maybe it will help someone to get further revelation...

[@ken440]

Very good. I think you are right in the muddy thinking regarding this "created by God" thing we come across in churchy talk. Good to hear from you. An interesting thought.... if Jesus was literally "created" in Mary's womb, then that would still be created like Adam, from the same material, man being dust. The first created man, and his woman.. as John Lynn would say.. "the little dirt guy and the little dirt babe." 😂 we been little dirt dudes ever since.

[@euston2216]

Both Trinitarianism and -Biblical- Unitarianism are devoid of the gospel of the Father's self-sacrificial love... 1. God is not three distinct persons, but rather a unipersonal Spirit, who is "the Father". (John 4:23-24) 2. God - the unipersonal Spirit - _is_ love. (1 John 4:8,16) 3. The greatest demonstration of love is to lay down one's _own_ life for others. (John 15:13) 4. So God - the unipersonal Spirit who _is_ love - laid down his own life for us (1 John 3:16) by manifesting himself on earth in genuine human form (1 Tim.3:16), taking upon himself human limitations and experiencing what it's like to be tempted (Heb.4:15), and shedding "his own blood" (Acts 20:28) - his pure and sinless blood - as he died for our sins on the cross. 5. When the unipersonal God manifested himself on earth _within_ our space-time continuum, he "simultaneously" remained unchanged according to his eternal state _far beyond_ our space-time continuum...which meant that he was in two "places" at the same "time". In one "place" he laid down his life for us and died for our sins, while in the other "place" - a "place" far beyond our ability to comprehend - he remained alive and unchanged. This made it possible for him - the _unipersonal_ God - to deliver on his seemingly impossible promise to both die _and_ raise _himself_ from the dead: _"JESUS answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days _*_*I*_*_ will raise it up."_ (John 2:19) The name of the unipersonal God - the God who _is_ love, who laid down _his own_ life for us, and who raised _himself_ from the dead - is revealed to be the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*

[@billschlegel1]

One-ness, Modalism, like Trinitarianism, is a result of the philosophical speculations of men. The Bible says that God has raised a human being from the dead, and exalted a human being to His (God's) right hand. Like Trinitarianism, Oneness does not want to accept the biblical claim that a human being, Jesus of Nazareth, distinct from God, has been exalted to God's right hand.

[@euston2216]

@@billschlegel1 The bible speaks nothing of Jesus being a "human being". It _does_ speak of him being "the _man_ Christ Jesus." But "man" does not _necessarily_ mean "human being". If it did, then according to Jesus' own words in John 8, the Father is a "human being"... *JOHN 8 (KJV)* [17] It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. [18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. In verse 17, Jesus refers to a "two men" law, and then in verse _18,_ he applies the "two men" law to himself ("man" #1) and the Father ("man" #2). So if "man" _necessarily_ means "created human being", then the Father is a created human being, according to Jesus. But of course the Father is _not_ a created human being...and neither is Jesus...because Jesus _is_ the Father, the eternal Spirit who "came down from heaven" _without leaving heaven,_ and who manifested _himself_ on earth in genuine human form, as _his own_ Son. *1 TIMOTHY 3 (KJV)* [16] And without controversy *great* is the *mystery* of godliness: *GOD was manifest in the flesh,* justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. "The MAN Christ Jesus" is not a huMAN creation created by the Father, but rather the genuinely huMAN _manifestation_ of the Father himself.

[@DavidAlexandre-f9b]

The thing is, if Jesus should died for Adam's race, his human nature should be Perfect. Now tell me, who can live a sinless life besides God? When Satan tempted Jesus saying " If you are the Son of God (noticed he didn't say, if you are God) Throw yourself down for the scripture says, God's Angels will guide you...." but Jesus said "It is written, thou shall not tempt the Lord your God" now if Jesus wasnt God why would he attribute that Scripture unto himself? Son of God or Logos, means God himself.

[@billschlegel1]

Hi. Consider that Jesus believed himself to be under the commandment: "You shall not tempt YAHWEH your God". If you are the Son of God, you aren't God. My son is not me. My son is not the same being as me. Israel, e.g., is the firstborn Son of God. Exo. 4:22. Israel is not God. Logos means word, not God. In John 1:1, it is a metaphorical title for the man Jesus of Nazareth through whom God brings about redemption, a new beginning.

[@blissseeker4719]

@@billschlegel1 in accordance with scripture, none can share in God's glory, ergo Jesus Christ is God, with the Father and Spirit. Jesus also calls Himself, in the book of Revelation, the Alpha and Omega; a title belonging with God. He is also worshipped throughout scripture and is directly called God by the apostle Thomas, to no rebuke. These are only a few instances pointing towards God's deity or Godhead in Jesus Christ. Truly, He is with God and is God.

[@ken440]

@user-ch4ue8xc7q You stated the answer, the reason for your own first question yet didnt notice it. "throw yourself down and Gods angels will guide you...." There it is, the servants of God charged to protect Jesus.. Gods angels... get it. Dont tempt God (because God is head of the angels looking after Jesus !!!) God is boss. Making Gods angels protect him unwarrented, is tempting the one in charge of those angels. i.e. tempting God. Get it? Son of God means son of God. I am son of Lawrence, but I am Ken, not Lawrence. Reading comprehension dude.

[@DavidAlexandre-f9b]

@@ken440 So in other words you are saying, satan was tempting God? That's why Jesus rebuked him? Scriptures says that God CANNOT BE TEMPTED. If God cannot be tempted, then how according to your answer here, does not break the scripture above? Jesus is God.. in the beginning was the WORD...and the Word was God. And the Word (God) became flesh.. flesh..human... kinsman redeemer to man... Jesus was both Man and God.

[@blissseeker4719]

@@ken440 The Son of God is the image of the invisible God and Whom is God? The Father. In the Son the Godhead dwells fully.

[@Chriliman]

If God knew we’d all sin before he made us, essentially guaranteeing our sin, why couldn’t he also know a way to save us all from our sin, essentially guaranteeing salvation for all? Yes, Jesus is the Christian answer, but why doesn’t he guarantee to save all? In other words, why would god create knowing most would not be saved, especially if the punishment is ect?

[@ken440]

the idea that God knows everything future is another religious tradition, like the trinity. Why would God make angelic sons of God, before He made humans, and they sinned first, so what do you make of that? No, God makes all with true free will. He doesnt know what sox you will wear tomorrow, because YOU havent decided yet. However He has a fair idea based on your daily choices. its your choice. reject, seek, sox or bare feet.

[@billschlegel1]

Hi. Not sure what you mean by your last word (probably a typo?) "ect". In short, I think the answer to your question is that God gave humans free-will, the privilege to choose. To rebel against God, to choose wrongly, that is, against what He says is right, results in death.

[@blissseeker4719]

@@ken440 no, God does know what will happen. That is very evident in scripture and I wholeheartedly recommend you read through it with humility, my brother in Christ.

[@ken440]

@@blissseeker4719 well thank you for the advise, but as i have been "reading through it" for over 40 years, i read that God gives us total free will, and the case of when Abraham put the knife to Issachs throat God said "STOP, NOW I KNOW YOU ARE SERIOUS" .. showing that God did not know beforehand and was proving Abraham. Otherwise God would be disingenuous and telling a white lie. kind of fooling about. So I will keep what I know, an all powerful God most high, who takes risks by giving us the choices.

[@blissseeker4719]

@@ken440 I've read through your replies here and it appears you lacks patience, humility and brotherly love. These are core pillars of a reborn Christian and yet you say, you have been reading scripture for forty years? Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness and here, he is demonstrating his sheer trust in God. This very act foreshadows the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[@hxplxss1835]

Christ is God and it is necessary that he was God for the atonement to work. You think the Church had it wrong this whole time?

[@Acts24.5]

Yep. Thats why Jesus warned us about false teachers infiltrating his movement.

[@ken440]

This teaching has just explained why God doesnt die. Nor does a human nature that God dressed in. Why in your logic does Jesus have to be God for atonement to work?

[@hxplxss1835]

@@Acts24.5 Yes, this video is by a false teacher. The gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Church.

[@hxplxss1835]

@@ken440 You have an inherent misinformed understanding of what death entails as well.

[@ken440]

@@hxplxss1835 Have you ever seen a "gate" used as an offensive weapon? So what else could that mean? It can mean those "angels who sinned" and are shut up waiting judgement, and could also mean Jesus was talking about where they were when he was transfigured by God, on mt Hermon (the only high mountain near Ceaseria Phillipi) which in ancient times was known as "the gates of hell, and was in 2nd temple literature regarded as where the Gen6 rebellion and attack on mankind occured (the reason for the imprisonment of the angels who sinned) The point being that the final conflict between Jesus and his church is yet to happen, when he returns. When the gates will be breached BY THE VICTORS. So what you regard as "impeccable church" is potentially not as perfect as you imply. It might have errors going back to what Paul and John and Peter and Jude write about, "in THESE LAST DAYS" from their perspective way back nearly 2000yrs ago, false teaching was already infiltrating the truth. Be careful how much "tradition of elders" you hold to.

[@jackson_lobi1326]

Heresy. Repent of your sin and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. "My Lord and my God" John 20:28. John 1:1 Jesus was God.

[@billschlegel1]

Hi. Your comment doesn't say anything about the points made in the podcast. Anyway, Thomas' God is the Father, whom he sees has raised Jesus from the dead. Thomas' Lord is Jesus, the Messiah, whom God (the Father) raised from the dead. Like in Romans 10, "Confess Jesus as Lord...and that God raised him from the dead". If you are interested, take a look: landandbible.blogspot.com/2019/12/my-lord-and-my-god-trinitarians-get-it.html

[@ken440]

The children were found looking up the chimney on Christmas eve. They said "we are waiting to see Santa AND Rudolf...." Did they think that santa was a reindeer? My Lord... AND... my God. two of them, father and son. "AND" is a conjunction. a joining word. It joins yet differentiates between two persons. Father AND son.

[@jackson_lobi1326]

Nestorianism (church heresy) says God didn't die on the cross. Jesus is one person with two natures. Read Anslem's Cur Deus Homo. Or is Athanasius. "A person might be a maker, and may be so called, even if the works do not yet exist, but He would not be called Father, nor be a Father, if a Son did not exist."

[@billschlegel1]

"Israel is my son, my firstborn."

[@blissseeker4719]

@@billschlegel1 Isaiah 9:6 Young's Literal Translation For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

[@ken440]

@@blissseeker4719 If you claim this is Jesus being spoken of, then how can he be the "father of eternity" ?? That would be denying the son. As you yourself stated above where you said "a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder " you can see it speaks of children and princes, obviously not the childs father!!!! Comprehension please! It would deny your "God the father and begotten son." And "mighty God" is in heb "el gibbor" which means "mighty one" when used in other places in scripture, like in reference to Nebachadnezzer who was also called "el Gibbor." So take the capital G off and it is referring to a lesser god, or one representing God, like all the other scripture references (which is why YHWH is called "God most high" or "ALLmighty God" because He is the God most high, greater than the gods of the nations and the principalities who are our true enemy. eph6:12)

[@blissseeker4719]

@@ken440 Ken, first of all, treat me with due respect as an elect and brother in Christ. Second of all, "princely power" refers to rule and dominion. Because of this, it's also translated as "government", for instance in the ESV. You have not understood the words. Now, let us look at the following verses. Isaiah 9:6-7 (ESV) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon[d] his shoulder, and his name shall be called[e] Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. So, we have the line of David, an everlasting throne, upheld with justice and righteousness forever... It is clearly Jesus Christ, at least from what I see. No other fulfulls this and from what I gather, this is the second coming of Jesus Christ. Now, you also say I deny the Son... Why? The Son of God is the image of the invisible God and Whom is God? The Father. In the Son the Godhead dwells fully.

[@billschlegel1]

@@blissseeker4719 Investigate what "theophoric" name means. "God bearing" names. People and places are given names that describe a quality or characteristic of God. If you are a Trinitarian, I assume you don't think Jesus is the "Father of Eternity", or "Everlasting Father". By the way, I personally know three people who are called Aviad. אביעד