John 1:3, A Non-Genesis-Creation Interpretation: All Happened Through Him

[@billschlegel1]

For those that disagree that the "all" that "came to be" or "happened" in John 1:3, a challenge: 1. Of the 65 times the word is used in John's Gospel, where is "all" used to mean "all the material, physical, created universe". 2. Of the 51 times in John's Gospel where a form of the word "came to be/happened" (17 times in the exact form the word appears in John 1:3) is used, where else does the author use it to mean "created"? In other words, why do the literal translations (mentioned in the podcast) translate as all things "happened" in John 1:3?

[@ZerubbabelsCapstone-ci9te]

Matthew 8:24 "σεισμὸς μέγας ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ" (a storm great was born in the sea) Matthew 17:2 "ἱμάτια αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο λευκὰ" (the clothes of his became white) John 1:14 "Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο" (and the Word flesh became) ἐγένετο (egeneto) Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle 3rd Person Singular came into being, was born, became, has came about, happened. Whatever it is Bill we know that it already happened in the past. (Aorist tense) Everything else that can and will still "happen" is in the future. But you are right about it not necessarily meaning, "created" - that definition is implied.

[@billschlegel1]

@@ZerubbabelsCapstone-ci9te Thanks for having a listen. For me, I don't think the meaning of "created" is implied, especially when we consider how the author of John used the same word in other places.

[@acb9318]

It’s always a treat when I see a notification that you released a new video!

[@SimplyAwesomeOriginal]

💯

[@stevenschmitz8901]

Excellent

[@Acts24.5]

Bill is this the full presentation? Like this a lot:)

[@billschlegel1]

There is a planned part 2 coming hopefully next week.

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

Amen. In response to this video, the cry ‘Jesus is God’ will invariably be heard. Those that say it have not understood what they are proposing. When Jesus returns, we will be like him for we shall see him as he is. 1 Jn 3:2 The logical conclusion of Jesus being God is ‘you will be like God’ …

[@billschlegel1]

As the author of the Gospel of John directly told his readers, he wrote so that his readers would "believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" (20:31). In the Bible, the Son of God is never God (but can represent God).

[@eddieyoung2104]

Thanks Bill. I appreciate your perspective, and I agree with what you said about things coming to be, rather than being created. I thought about this myself a while ago when I read the verse in Greek, but then I wasn't knowledgeable enough of Greek to be sure that this was a legitimate translation. So, thanks for giving it some more legs to stand on. However, I still find myself leaning toward the word being the words of God, rather than the person Jesus. And I believe this understanding can still fit well with John's beginning being that of the new creation. All the gospels including John use 'the word' as referring to God's word, or the gospel message itself, so it would seem consistent for John 1 to also have that meaning. Therefore, we could say, in the beginning of the new creation was the gospel message, and that was with God, and was part of him, or was divine. And all things happened or came to be through that gospel message. Even Jesus came to be through it. That is, he came into existence as the fulfilment of the gospel proclaimed to Abraham. Gabriel also spoke that same word to Mary, and it became flesh in her womb. And without that message/promise, nothing of what we read about in the gospels came about. In other words, Jesus' life, ministry, message, and disciples, all came to be because God had promised his messiah in the first place.

[@billschlegel1]

Thanks for the comment. To help focus the discussion, I like to ask people where they first think the man, the human person Jesus of Nazareth, is mentioned either literally or metaphorically in John 1. For instance, is not the human person, the man Jesus "the L/light" that John the Baptizer was not, but came to bear witness to? (1:8)

[@eddieyoung2104]

@@billschlegel1 Yes, it seems that Jesus is indeed the light spoken of in verse 4. And I think that's where I would pinpoint the change from speaking about God's word to the person Jesus. I would understood the verse to read, 'In it (God's word) was life, and the life was the light of men (Jesus).' Or perhaps, 'In it (God's word) was life (Jesus), and that life was the light of men.' I think either could be correct as Jesus described himself as both the light of the world, and the life. That is, God's word foretold that Jesus, the life and light, would come into existence. Or put another way, in the word was the life giving message, which was the light of men. And that light was fully revealed by the man Christ Jesus. We could also read the whole of verse 4 as referring to God's word, which contained life, and gave light. And then only in verse 5 see the change to the man Jesus with the phrase 'And the light shines in the darkness...' As if to say, God's word had been giving light for centuries, but then it fully shone out with the manifestation of the son of God. Obviously, I recognise Jesus can be the word, because he spoke it authoritatively, just as he can be the life, because he gives life. So, I don't discount the possibility that Jesus could be referred to as 'the word.' I just believe that 'the word' as a reference to God's speech/message is a fully workable explanation. And is arguably a more straightforward one. That is, if we've gone through the Old Testament understanding 'the word' to refer to God's words, then by the time we reach John's gospel it would be consistent to think of it in the same way.

[@billschlegel1]

@@eddieyoung2104 Thanks for the thoughtful response. I totally agree that there are similarities between how God worked in and through his word in past times, to how he worked in and through Jesus. But I understand the similarities to actually be evidence of differentiation. In my the next podcast, I'll share how I (not only I) believe that "that which came to be in him was life, and the life was the light of men" refers to the life that came to be in the man Jesus (the Word), and that life is light (hope, a promise, etc.) for mankind. Blessings.

[@eddieyoung2104]

@@billschlegel1 Thanks, I'll look forward to the next podcast.

[@jimwilmot2371]

Thanks so much for bringing more clarity to this. This adds to the earlier one you had on this subject that confirmed my suspicions that John 1:1 isn't Gen 1:1. It also caused me to understand (unbelievably 😅) that Jesus isn't God. This really helps me understand it better not only for my own sake but for answering others. 👍

[@grantknott]

Hey Bill, I remember listening to your podcast in early 2021 which included Rivers a bit later on and it resonated me immediately. I changed my prior beliefs on John 1:1a, b and 1:3 pretty much overnight. Why isn’t this catching on in Trinity world? Blindness, indoctrination and pride are probably the three main reasons

[@4kBible]

@BillSchlegel Hey Bill, I have a channel on KZbin where I've posted some early church history, including Didache, and The Clement Homilies, 20 penned by the first early church fathers from 60-90AD. These are "hidden gems", Apostle Peter was absolutely brilliant in his debates against Simon Mangus, plus back stories to the parables giants, original sin & Eschatology & MORE!! These were quoted by early church fathers & used to fight against Gnosticism & heresies. Due to the harsh warning and initiation process attached to "disclosing" these books from Peter? They were held aside for "private use" then sadly forgotten about. (😏Spoiler alert, their biblical Unitarians) God bless!! 4kBible 🙏

[@gordonallan2181]

1) The Greek word “panta” means “all things”. As pointed out, it does not mean “all people” - it is neuter plural adjective (its use in a singular masculine sense is not relevant). As far as I am aware, nobody argues that “panta” is always connected with creation. So it is difficult to follow the reasoning behind the argument that it doesn’t refer to creation anywhere else in John’s gospel. Unless the context is creation, we would not expect, “all things” to relate to creation. (page 5-6 of the PDF). It relates to creation in John 1:3-4 because all of the words John uses in John 1:1-5 are derived from the creation narratives in the OT. The difference between "panta" in John 1:3 and the other occurrences is that John says it was all things WITHOUT EXCEPTION. It is not a relative use of "all things". 2) The “literal translation” of the verb ginomai is not “happen” as stated on page 2-3 of the PDF). Two sources are quoted (one is a revision of the other and no changes have been made in the later version of the “translation” of ginomai in John 1.) However, the verb ginomai occurs 12 times in John 1. Only in 1:3 is it rendered “happened” by the cited sources - so how can it be the "literal translation" any more than how it in translated in other verses by the same source? Is this not selective reasoning? BDAG defines the verb as: “A verb with numerous nuances relating to being and manner of being. Its contrast to the more static term εἰμί can be seen in Kaibel 595, 5 οὐκ ἤμην καὶ ἐγενόμην=I was not and then I came to be (cp. Ath. 4, 2 in 3 below).”

[@MoniqueChatenay]

Hi William, I need your help to understand Romans 8:26. I am struggling with it. If the Spirit is the power of God, if it belongs to God, how can it makes intercession, to who God is interceding to? Please, can you help me. I am watching your KZbin videos and Anthony Buzzard, and also Biblical Unitarian. Continue your good work. 🙏

[@billschlegel1]

Hi. Good question. I think the best understanding is that Paul is talking about the spirit of Jesus. This doesn't mean that Jesus as a literal entity of somekind has come into our hearts. It has obvious metaphorical meanings since Jesus spirit is not literally in our heart. It must mean that who Jesus is and what he has done and is doing influences us. Note these two verses, one from just a few verses earlier in Romans 8: Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" Galatians 4:6 And because you are children, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Galatians 4:6 says specifically it is the spirit of his Son that God sent into our hearts. And note, it causes us to know that our God is (not a trinue being, or Jesus), but the Father. Hope that helps.

[@MoniqueChatenay]

@billschlegel1 Hi William, it's Monique from Australia. Thank you for your answer about Romans 8:26. It makes sense to me as Jesus is the only mediator and He is called the Spirit. I was for few years with a little group of SDAs who didn't believe in the Trinity, they believe what the pioneers of SDAs believe in the past. But they believe that Jesus was created with Proverbs 8:22-30, they believe that Jesus existed before His incarnation. I stayed with them for two years but found out that Ellen White was a false prophet and had wrong teachings. Coming out of JWs in 1993, I didn't believe in the Trinity and struggled with it for 31 years. I left the Trinity and Christian churches few weeks ago and decided to search on KZbin some preaching. I found your videos, Anthony Buzzard and Biblical Unitarian to name a few. I am learning your way of thinking. It's new to me. I would like to ask you a question. What Bible verses make you believe that Jesus was not pre-existing? I can think of one, Hebrews 1:2. Have you got any others? I am searching for the truth and want to find God. That's my main goal in life. I don't want to be deceived like I was with JWs and lost my family in this cult or with SDAs. I am not a theologian and I am trying to understand the Bible. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. There are so many different interpretations of it that it's scary. Listening to your videos and others, it makes sense. Thank you so much for helping me. I am an elderly French lady living in North Queensland in Australia. May God bless your mission. 🙏

[@billschlegel1]

@@MoniqueChatenay Monique, Your desire to know the truth is commendable and inspiring. Yes, the idea that somehow Jesus literally had a pre-incarnate existence as G/god or angel has been very prevalent through mainstream types of Christianity. I believe that claim to be in error, and not what the Bible declares. I believe it is based on Greek philosophy (that a soul exists apart from a body), and then from misinterpretation of some passages, especially from the Gospel of John. People misunderstood the Hebraic idioms in John’s Gospel, like “sent by God” and “from heaven”, which are simply was to communicate “ordained, appointed, authorized, empowered by God”. Also, Jesus as Messiah was foreknown by God (e.g., 1 Peter 1:20), and some of the foreknown language in the Bible is mistaken as literal existence. The clear teaching in the Scriptures is that Jesus is “a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him”. There is nothing unclear or figurative about statements like the ones I’ll quote below. No fuzziness or hint that “that’s only part of who Jesus was”. In fact, such statements as the ones below would be deceitful if Jesus was really a G/god who only took on a human nature. John 8:40 “I am a man who told you the truth that I heard from God…” Romans 5:15 "For if many died through the trespass of one man, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous". 1 Corinthians 15:21. “For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man”. 1 Timothy 2:4-5 God "…desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus". Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him, just as you yourselves know- (Act 2:22 NET) Acts 2:36 “Therefore let the entire house of Israel know with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified." Acts 17:31 “because He (God) has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He has appointed; and of this H e has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. Hebrews 2:6-7. “What is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man, that You care for him? You have made him for a little while lower than the angels, You have crowned him with glory and honor” Another key point: Any claim that Jesus had a literal pre-incarnate existence is an effort to eliminate the human person, Jesus of Nazareth. If Jesus was a literal pre-incarnate being/person, then no real human person Jesus of Nazareth ever came to be in the womb of Mary. When you get a chance, take a look at this video. Mainstream Christianity must claim that: “Jesus is not a Human Person” kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6Kuo6KdjJiAi68 Blessings in Messiah Jesus.

[@MoniqueChatenay]

@billschlegel1 Hi William, it's Monique. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question. I am very grateful. Continue your excellent teaching. God bless you and your family. 🙏

[@billschlegel1]

@@MoniqueChatenay Thank you and God's best to you.

[@Daniel_II]

Who was in the world and the world was created through him ( John 1:10 ) ? Man Jesus ? No ! John points directly to LOGOS as LIGHT which is the logical order of the world created by God and points to HIM as Creator ! Logos as synonym of Father's Wisdom was with Him from eternity and also was present in the world from moment of creation because the world was created through Wisdom of God ( Proverbs 8:22-35). "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God by its wisdom, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe." 1 Corinthians 1:21 However because of blindness caused by sin humanity does not see the wisdom contained in LOGOS, therefore it was necessary to raise up second Adam as a living House for the Wisdom of God ! And not only to teach us about True God but what is most important become the firstborn of the new mankind united with the Spirit of the Father ! ( has spiritual sight ) That is why Paul wrote that we have the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 1:15-16 ) it means that we can move in the understanding of God's Wisdom as Sons of God ( John 1:12-13 ). The beginning of John's Gospel ( John 1:1) contains encoded in gematry Euler mathematic constant which points to the logarithmic and fractal order of the universe !

[@billschlegel1]

Hi Daniel, the world that came to be through him is not planet earth. The Greek word there in John 1:10, (kosmos/world) does not mean planet earth. Once again, the statement is not about physical creation. landandbible.blogspot.com/2020/11/jesus-did-not-create-planet-earth.html