Johann Hari On Why You Can't Pay Attention (& How To Reclaim Focus) | Rich Roll Podcast

Journalist and “Stolen Focus” author Johann Hari joins Rich for a discussion on social media and our degrading attention spans-and the solutions forward. To read more about Johann and peruse the full show notes, go here👉🏾bit.ly/richroll661
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FILMED AND EDITED BY BLAKE CURTIS
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00:00:00 Intro
00:02:07 Johann's Recent Bill Mahr Appearance
00:03:13 Primer on Johann's New Book "Stolen Focus"
00:14:25 Johann's Inspiration & Experience Going Off-Line from Tech
00:24:55 Responding to Stolen Attention with Defense and Offense
00:31:46 How Can We Collectively Respond to Our Attention Crisis?
00:39:00 The 'Switch Cost Effect' & Cognitive Degradation
00:43:22 Flow State & 3 Steps to Achieve It
00:46:49 3 Steps to Achieving Flow
00:50:16 Nutrition and the Way It Affects Our Attention
00:52:47 Chemicals and Pollutants that Harm Our Capacity for Attention
00:58:42 The Reason to Be Optimistic that We Can Make Change
01:01:57 We Need an Attention Movement
01:03:16 Tristan Harris - What's Going on Inside the Tech Industry
01:06:49 Quality of Engagement vs. Quantity of Engagement
01:14:54 Our Current Trajectory is Not Good, but It Can Change
01:19:44 Attention Problems with Children
01:30:03 How the Pandemic has Affected Attention
01:33:54 Social Media Algorithms and Negativity Bias
01:38:58 It's Going to Take a Collective Will to Change Our Status Quo
01:44:32 Parody of Connection
01:56:27 Moving Away from 'Junk' Values to 'Meaningful' Values
02:04:53 Practical Advice - What Can We Do to Pay More Attention?
02:10:11 Closing Remarks
* * * * *
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Hi I'm Rich Roll. I'm a vegan ultra-endurance athlete, author, podcaster, public speaker & wellness evangelist. But mainly I'm a dad of four. If you want to know more, visit my website or check out these two the NY Times articles:
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[@richroll]

Hey there I messed up in the intro -- 'Chasing the Scream' is about addiction and 'Lost Connections' is about depression (I got it backwards -- sorry). Anyway thanks for watching and for more on Johann and to peruse the show notes visit: bit.ly/richroll661

[@michaelscoots]

Perfect timely discussion, Rich and Johann; now if I could just get my 15 year old to listen. Wish me luck!

[@justanotherfella4585]

Off the back of hearing this fella recently I’m getting my daughter & I to take (increasingly longer) walks when she visits leaving our phones behind. We just talk. Plain & simple. Conversation. It’s beautiful. Thank-you. David & Eve

[@kareno8634]

No Worries. I say "Chasing the Scream", too. many apply; mine - Anger & Lack of Accountability. How to STOP the Abuse upon the people by our public *servants.* Even you guys spoke of it. HUGS to All. _peace_

[@kareno8634]

@@michaelscoots GREAT Luck! Don't forget the Hugs. this reminded me how i Miss my childhood; We were SO Lucky, No E~Gadgets. _peace_

[@romb1818]

How can somebody imagine, that a person with poor concentration will have the patience to watch a 2 hours plus video? 🤔

[@repurposeyou]

Rich’s command of the English language is impressive. I learn like 20 new words every podcast.

[@richeyrich2203]

The tech reduces our lexicon.. gotta make short words that you can type quickly the main language

[@StephenCoorlas]

lol totally. He hit us upfront with contrarian and cantankerous in the same sentence, and although I'm familiar with these words I do think social media has encouraged us to shorthand the meaning behind words and use much less descriptive terms for our intentions. The funny part is, these more sophisticated words are intended to actually be more descriptive in conversation, hence reducing the additional need for explanation if simpler words are used. Anyway... Great point.

[@repurposeyou]

@@StephenCoorlas I listen to many podcasts and people can't find the words to explain what they're saying because they don't know enough words. It's funny how that works! lol! Rich is the only one I've heard who can represent each word properly and bring out 50 new words in a podcast I haven't heard.

[@Mrsjustheretolearn]

I love that about him. He’s very handsome but his mind and heart are BEAUTIFUL!

[@OM-or3im]

@@Mrsjustheretolearn completely agree. I am definitely crushing on Rich for all the above even though i am quite a bit younger and he has a lovely wife. Lol

[@ConceptualVision]

I always tend to think of Carl Jung and his reclusive cabin with his tower, where he went to do his deep work. Already back then he did identified these trends, I believe, that hunts us more deeply today.

[@judylarsen7622]

Rich Roll is one of the best listeners. That is what makes his podcast so create. He gives his guests space. Thanks Rich!

[@TechOutAdam]

It's pretty fascinating how hard it is for us to sit still and actually focus on just one tasks at a time. I started going on walks without listening to anything and that alone helped my imagination, feel more relaxed, decreased my stress.

[@JFlynn1207]

I resonate with this. I recommend everyone leave the headphones at home and go for a long walk with no real agenda. Great time to think.

[@zatch5166]

I'm a runner. When I go out for longer than 5 hours, my mind is at peace if leave the podcasts and music at home. Training with just my thoughts help my job and stress levels; BUT I don't get it if I bring along my phone. I end up feeling more stressed and exhausted when I bring it with me.

[@teressahenesey5444]

Psychedelics have helped me, with paying attention on whats really important its helped me with my addiction to opiates as well, the pain, my sleep alot of different things

[@williamkreth]

Walks in silence are so much better

[@hannahdonnelly]

The book, 'A Philosophy of Walking' by Frédéric Gros talks about exactly this. Walking with no purpose was really important to writers/poets/composers in the 19th/early 20th century as it fed their creative juices :)

[@RJ-iu7ze]

My god this is just the shot in the arm I needed. Johann's passionate, evidenced based argument that huge systems can indeed be changed by ordinary people acting collectively is something everyone should hear.

[@AhmetKaan]

You'll watch an entire Netflix show even when the first episodes are slow and boring just because someone told you "it gets better." *But what if you looked at your goals like that and watched your life get better instead?*

[@juliet298]

Spot on, well said 🙏

[@andreawisner7358]

Agreed. Also Netflix sucks you in, starting the next show before the prior one is even finished.

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

I have a one episode rule to shows. If the first episode doesn't blow me away I will not continue. And if shows starts to bore me I will stop watching. My time is precious.

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

@@andreawisner7358 you can turn off that feature. I forgot what it's called. But I googled it.

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

@@andreawisner7358 how to turn off auto play

[@stvbrsn]

Johann’s command of recall for his bibliography is a true testament to the various things he’s learned in the course of researching and writing this book.

[@waffle_chair9269]

Johann Hari, is soooo inspiring it completely bamboozles me , and makes me half envious, what an incredibly open person he is. Just a superstar of a human.

[@natureisallpowerful]

Yes,Johan Harri speaks sense to me. We take back our choice and decide what we want and what's really important, and not buying into a narcissistic,self promoting ,egotistical, fake world that only exists online. Being present in your own life is the best thing you can do for yourself.

[@sarahcouture24]

I just love how johann responds to disagreements during an interview or conversation lol he validates the true points the person does make rather than argue with them or say “no that’s wrong”, he redirects the conversation by then emphasizing the importance of his own message and explaining why it’s relevant, and why the other person would likely personally care about it, and seals the deal when he reiterates his philosophy with yet another Commonly Relatable example so that people get it. Such a good writer and speaker 😍

[@Nobodys_safe]

😍

[@solomono.b4953]

WELL SAID and noticed 👏

[@jennifergrainger2480]

As I listened to the podcast I deleted lots of the apps off my phone except for contact apps, email and productivity. FB deleted forever. Instagram and KZbin only available on bigger screen - iPad or laptop. Kept podcasts and audio book. Back in the day we would listen to music. So I’ve added music, meditation apps to my homepage. Awesome topic and so important. Thanks heaps! I thought I was just getting old. I can’t wait to read/listen to the book.

[@ThatMumboJumbo]

This is essential listening. A subject that I have become increasingly concerned about, that I have never heard so well articulated.

[@radessvk4441]

Absolutely 100% agree

[@a1pwn]

I see it around me. People only get like half of what is happening at any moment. Its extremely bad now. I work at a customer service department and our customers are like zombies. Written communication is even worse than on the phone...

[@waffle_chair9269]

It’s like everyone is in a massive experiment. And Covid was stage 2 of really pushing people into it further.

[@lindatanner3731]

Awesome interview! I do business consulting and personal fitness training. I was recently telling a friend that I needed to move all of my training clients before or after my consulting day, which is 8-5. I’m doing this because it’s SO HARD to switch from one mode to the other. She told me that I needed to learn to get better at switching and re-focusing after the switch. At first I felt inadequate, like “what’s wrong with me?” But then I decided to stick with my plan. Listening to this interview helped me understand that it’s not a deficiency to struggle with switching back and forth. It’s the way our brains are wired. Thank you Johann Hari and Rich Roll!!

[@sally4026]

Deleted my twitter account 2 weeks ago. 5,000 followers. Absolutely shocked at how bad the withdrawal has been. All those people I thought I'd miss, gave several my email or phone number. Only one text in the two weeks. They're coping without me! Also deleted Facebook and Instagram. A decent dumb phone, bring it on! Thoroughly enjoyable podcast and definitely getting the book!!

[@simongarner5340]

Kudos to you. That's a lot of followers but as you've witnessed they mean little in the real world. I deleted my Twitter account and swear I am calmer now. Some of the toxic comments started to stress me out and irritate me.

[@carolynhill7726]

This was so eye opening for me. I used to love reading, but in the last few years I noticed it was becoming harder to focus and sit and read a physical book. I thought it was because I was just getting older (I'm 59.). I honestly did not think of how much my devices have hijacked my time and attention may have affected my ability to sit and read, or just sit and do nothing. I've also had the one vacation I took last year nearly ruined by interruptions from work for things that did not need immediate attention. Thank you for this podcast. Rich, as always, you are a superb interviewer.

[@waffle_chair9269]

This comment is so relatable and on point!! You’re not the only one!! Also you get used to the speed if taking info at the speed of the internet, and can make reading feel too slow, which probably what we need more of.

[@mikesimms1]

Excellent discussion. As a software engineer in the cyber security business, the idea of a "right to disconnect" is something we should explore here in the US. I have seriously gotten in trouble for not immediately responding to an email that was sent at 3 am, when I was sleeping. The "switch cost effect" seems similar to what us software engineers call "context switch overhead", which is the amount of time a computer processor spends switching from one task to another. If a processor is spending too much time context switching, it said to be "thrashing". We'd often use this terminology to refer to managers that would ruin our productivity with numerous small requests. Like Johann mentioned in the podcast, if we're going to fix these issues at a governmental level, we'll first need to fix the corrupting influence of money in politics. But I guess this is a recurring theme with many of the world's problems and something that Prof Lawrence Lessig has done an excellent job of describing in his book "Republic, Lost".

[@janetcarlchen4540]

mn

[@claudieharris9046]

WOW, WOW, WOW. Johann is really an extraordinary fellow. He TALKS and TALKS, but it's 100% fascinating and informative. Every word counts and not one word too many. His memory is incredible, and so is his intelligence. I'm so impressed by him and I've learned a ton. A thousand THANKS to both of you !!

[@pinkmoon831]

Johann Hari can steal my focus and attention anytime 😊

[@barbcarbon9440]

I absolutely love Johann Hari. Not only brilliant, but such passion and hope. ❤️

[@StephenCoorlas]

From that opening audio clip alone I was 100% on board with the direction of this conversation. Sooo happy to also see so many comments supporting this conversation. We need to band together to create change for ourselves, for our children, and for future generations alike. We do not need to create a virtual world modeled after an already dysfunctional society. We need to genuinely and organically reconnect to create change here on Earth in real-time. There is only one verse we can physically all agree exists, the universe. Our legacy Universe.

[@vimalraj-er4jy]

"When you struggle to focus, don't start criticizing yourself that you lack will power, etc. and instead create the necessary conditions required to get into a flow state " AHA Moment for me 🙏 I have been struggling with this literally my entire life. As soon as I get distracted, I start thinking am not good enough or I lack the will power and kept focusing on what I can do to increase my will power. I did not realize it wasn't my will power but not creating the ideal conditions for achieving my goals. The default state right now is to be distracted and we need to consciously work towards becoming focused. It looks so deceptively simple but because of my ego, I did not realize this is where I am lacking. Thanks a TON.

[@alakabaz3]

Just finished listening to his audiobook. Another brilliant piece of work.

[@stevetipp7340]

I have been a longtime listener. This one made me look within at my lack of focus, inability to read a book, etc. and I believe my short attention span has been affected by social media. Turned it off yesterday and I plan to leave the socials off for the time being and see how I can grow back as a result. Thanks Rich

[@chaetostoma]

As a social researcher who raises awareness about similar issues I found Johann's talk very powerful - he's so thorough and so dead on with comparisons. Wonderful conversation and so meaningful. Most of your pod talks are super interesting, Rich, but this one is capital "s" Special. Thank you!

[@gokulpnair]

Much needed.Thank you.

[@Zornlover]

This is such a good conversation. So important- one of my favorites.

[@shannonferguson4810]

Jaw-dropping conversation.

[@CoolInOlympia]

It's amazing how optimistic and hopeful Johan remains! Excellent episode!

[@along9971]

This is the second time I've watched this interview, learned a lot Two really great personalities, love it

[@TheirStoryUK]

I can sit and watch people talk in a compelling way all day long. Especially when they are as articulate as Johann Hari is. His use of the English is second to none. I consider myself to be articulate and I love language but I will never be as articulate as Johann! I also find it fascinating how when he refers to one of the experts/ doctors he has spoken to, he remembers everyone of them by name and what they said to him. It's simply amazing!

[@alexandrac9536]

Johan Hari is one of the greatest intellectuals of our time. He is a great teacher who can make any subject interesting. One of his gifts in my judgment is th ability to use stories to exemplify a point that everyone can relate to regardless of their socio-economic-educational background. I am a college instructor for 19 years, and I have ADHD and this spoke to me in all kinds of ways. We can no longer say: "What is wrong with young people today compared to even 10 years ago" b/c we adults (Gen X here) have gotten hooked on these devices that we did not come of age using (I am so grateful everyday that I went to college before all these technologies). I find that the greatest thing we can do for these students is to teach them to listen. I find it very difficult to have conversations with people my age and older as well. How often I catch them not listening. I am impatient with most things, but I have developed my skill of listening since I was a child and even though there are many negative things about my brain, I give anyone I speak to 100% of my attn.

[@movingonandup322]

I love this guy! He's so passionate and intelligent, and he really is effective at showing the reader/listener the adverse impact that the addiction we have to our gadgets have on all of our lives individually, as well as collectively. This is one of those rare interviews that I'll definitely want to watch again. Thanks Rich & Johann!👍🙌🙏❤

[@angie57494]

What a beautifully evolved thinker. I’m looking forward to whatever comes next from Johann.

[@kathleenkulp240]

Once again, an amazing, enlightening, thought-provoking ccnversation between two very thoughtful, intelligent people. Thanks, Rich, for bringing this to us!

[@XeniaAidonopoulou]

What a great person, what great points , how focusing and mind opening ... thank you both...

[@nikkihobson5632]

One of the best of Rich’s shows ever! Thank you so much!! Rich looks bored during some of it but the content! This is relevant and scary. We have done this to ourselves, no doubt, but we can change it.

[@rahabosornotorroella3755]

Last sunday I donated blood and I was the only one who was not a relative to boy who needed the blood. And my phone had almost no batery so i was not lookinf at it when I was waiting and I think that I was given a great present by the relatives because they began to talk to me paying attention, no phones, just us and their suffering the gratitudes. I was left with a big feeling of joy and now I understand, we had one hour of Focus

[@janethansen9612]

I am an avid reader but my 18 year old is incapable of reading a book, no matter how short. Now she wonders why she is having sleep difficulties. Everyone is so stressed, this is not how life is meant to be lived.

[@jorgeromera3861]

Enthralling video! My focus has been like a laser during the whole chat.

[@brightwithspirit]

"Ride your bike near a cliff" as one of the things we did as children really made me crack up. 😄 thank u

[@jorgeg.g4492]

Listening and agreeing to this good podcast while doing other stuff requiring focus...

[@knowledge1556]

This is quite important and deserves more attention

[@slackeratslack]

I still think Jenny Odell's book 'How To Do Nothing' helped me greatly to think about how I spend my time.

[@thehiggyhigson]

The number of times I had to scan back a minute or two because someone messaged me while i was watching it... Great discussion. Time to put it in practice.

[@holliebingham1311]

Definitely one of my ALL TIME favorite episodes, thank you Rich!!! 💖💖💖

[@CALLOUSMANNER1]

Switch Cost Effect section in this Ep is huge. Big Implications for getting into Flow. Much thanks.

[@oddlilbird]

This just might be my favorite episode, so far👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@upendasana7857]

I think those "let grow programmes"sound brilliant..I also think this is so important for children social skills and interaction not to mention their mental health

[@DGBMXKID]

Thank you Rich for all you do and have done for the Recovery community. Funny thing about this 2 hour 13 min about not being able to focus. I can only listen to it in 20 second increments.....lol.

[@gaylemarkow]

God, Johann Hari brilliant.. Such an important, revelatory interview! Thanks, Rich!

[@ashleymolina8158]

Love this episode ❤️

[@upendasana7857]

brilliant time stamps btw Rich.love your calm and grounded presence..find it really relaxing

[@AlfieIII]

Love love that kids go out to play chapter. Great conversation!! Thank you for this

[@andrealouisenoon]

"Will someone somewhere please acknowledge I exist?" Wow!!

[@afkac]

This was fascinating. Thanks for making this happen. The big wake up calls for me were: 1. For the teachers out there, follow that trail to its logical conclusion and you've got kids with no interest ever in giving you attention in the first place. 2. Around 1 hour and 10 minutes, "You (us) are not the customer, you are the product that they sell to the real customer who are the advertisers!" 3. 1 hour and 12 minutes, "You are more likely to resubscribe because it makes you feel good." and right then I thought to myself. I never enjoy social media. I never feel satiated or happy that I've looked at it for half an hour in the same way I do if I watch a documentary or listen to some music. Mic drop moments.

[@juliet298]

Needed this just now. Thank you 🙏

[@lisameyer7757]

I worked in customer service where individuals were only given 294 seconds to resolve each issue on average. It caused a terrible personal burnout that I am still working to emerge a whole person from. Having this underlying metric slave master constantly watching productivity, that made us race against time no matter what the circumstance was terribly damaging. I believe this is why working with customer service is impossible now.

[@gemmabelfrage6691]

Soooo excited to learn frm you guys and overcome this and grateful I'm not alone in this! THANKYOU for what you are creating for us!

[@NateWiener]

Great interview in every way. Ironic that I'm watching it on KZbin, when I promised myself over an hour ago that I'd be doing something else. And I'm probably going to watch one of those compelling videos KZbin is suggesting over on the right side as soon as this one is over. Sigh...

[@andrewduffy1425]

This podcast is worth your full attention.

[@GuiltyRocker]

Thank god for your podcast, I just ordered his book and look forward to reading it while paying attention. This episode has been very helpful to me, thank you.

[@defynormal9742]

This really hits home with the fact that I caught myself pulling up TikTok multiple times during this video. I can’t even focus on a podcast that I pulled up to help me learn how to focus better. 😣

[@amandam480]

@1:13 Such a good idea.

[@truthfulT]

Thank you for this conversation! It has become hard for me to focus on one thing for a prolonged period of time, even things I enjoy. And it worries me deeply.

[@reenasingh-id9zh]

Pretty much everyday i tell myself that i will limit my screen time especially when i watch something like this but then I tell myself that I wouldn't have got this information ( or many other information) without holding my phone

[@marineb7617]

Great podcast! Thankyou so much for this! Going to get the book 👍. Please come back for another one 😊

[@chrissik3102]

🙏🏻 thank you, this was a great one. Gave me a lot to think about.

[@dr.claudioaquino5319]

Wow! Life-changing !!! Thank you!!

[@soniasekhon4000]

rich is a great listener. Learned a lot from Johann.

[@didkochanell]

Great episode as always. A lot of great info to take in.

[@man0utoftime]

I'm going to watch this later, but first I'll watch 5 minutes of dozens of other videos while simultaneously reading the comments on said videos.

[@michellebud234]

What an excellent discussion! I want to go read all his books now!!!

[@andreasheehan2677]

Toward the end you mentioned wanting to see a better dumb phone. Recently I heard of a phone called Wise phone. It’s a dumb phone but looks like a smart phone, it has call, text, maps and I believe you can download music as well. Fabulous episode!

[@maloriekerouac8225]

AMAZING episode. wow.

[@anne-mariemckim8281]

Thought provoking and riveting content!

[@albertoduqe]

This was freaking amazing

[@CoolInOlympia]

This subject matter is so me!

[@gD-cp3cg]

It's perfect what he is saying. It's a global problem in France we have the same. Today, if you work with your two hands, you do not earn a good salary. You have to use the work of foreigner countries to make money. Except if you work for LVMH for the rich people but even in this situation, the employees are not paid with respect. The example of children today are the people who are not respectful. People who do nothing, just they use the exploitation system to make others running a lot. If you don't go on holiday by plane you are has-been, if you do not buy the last mobile phone, you are has-been, if you do not use an electric car you are has-been, if you live in a small tiny house, you are has-been... We have to slow down and put more respect in each of our lives.

[@sina942000]

Rich, the goal of a subscription service like Netflix is to get you to spend as little time on their service as possible while still being willing to pay for the subscription. Serving up those videos requires bandwidth, more bandwidth requires more electricity, and more electricity costs more money. As a creator on KZbin, you don't see the energy cost of people watching your videos, but Google certainly does.

[@danieldurkin2763]

Excellent podcast! He needs to go back on JRE too!

[@elmachomen]

I absolutely loved the episode, thank you so much for sharing this incredible discussion! I do have to say that it is a bit ironic that having a conversation about how impactful it is, among other things, to be interrupted in the middle of a task, that there are commercial breaks in the episode. I do understand the reason for it and I don't begrudge it in any way shape or form, I just thought it was funny :)

[@shyammathew9095]

This is how I know my social life is reduced to insignificant by the number of names Mr Johann spurted out, each time he quoted or placed a past example.

[@joshsinger9256]

About to up my Attention game. Let's get it!

[@ivanbenisscott]

Yes!!

[@HolisticHealthWithHarry]

fascianting!

[@stvbrsn]

Looking for a surefire way to get into flow state? Take up downhill skiing, telemark in particular.

[@LizColville]

agree. and i forget about all my worries when i'm skiing.

[@Supakalii]

Found this vid at the perfect time

[@lienpisters7646]

This is a big one. Lately, I've been hesitant about posting anything on the socials because it's a contribution to these media who are working with the wrong ethics. On the other hand: the Dalai Lama also has an Instagram page. Anyway I would certainly love to help moving this issue into a healthy direction, so if there's a website or anything where I can take action then let me know!

[@SuperFoodParents]

I always listen to videos on double speed while doing 1-2 other things but he was talking about me in detail. I actually had to rewind several times (at 1.25 speed) to focus 🥴

[@amylastrode6151]

Check out the The Light Phone, Rich! Everything you described wanting in a non-smart phone and the look is cool.

[@bji8942]

I am Avery anti social person, no fb, no instagram/Snapchat/telegram no form of social media but I watch KZbin every day. I have found the more I disconnected from technological communication the more I felt the deep need to just go outdoors and talk to someone, a neighbour etc.

[@arvinsenglishph2293]

I like his accent ! British Gosh so cute!! Filipinos love to mimic their accent.

[@thelastofthemonitos6994]

Hearing and anti screen manifesto in my screen :) Great

[@benjammin105123]

I can do everything but the sleeping thing. I gotta stay up late to get that alone and quiet time I need.

[@sharon1775]

good interview

[@pinkmoon831]

Actually his book 'Chasing the Scream' is about addiction and 'Lost Connections' is about depression so just a little mix up there at the beginning...

[@richroll]

Yeah I realized that after the video published -- my error!

[@pinkmoon831]

@@richroll great interview tho 👍

[@_unsteady]

This episode must reach more people! I’d love to translate it into my mother tongue (Greek) -would that be possible?

[@williamkreth]

I'll have to watch this several times because I was having a hard time paying attention

[@DanielConcerto]

11:40 / 16:30 / 41:00 / 46:30 / 51:55 / 1:16:00 / 1:38:00 / 1:49:15 / 2:01:20 / 2:05:10 Cage phone - phone as utility - activity outside - focused social exposure - prioritize sleep - 1 thing at a time - create a condition for a flow state vs. will power - pleasure of focus far outweigh the pleasure of fake values