After Socrates: Episode 24 - Why This? Why Now?

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you everyone for accompanying me on this journey, and a special thank you for the people, in front of and behind the camera, that made this possible.

[@dalibofurnell]

Thank you so much, Professor John vervaeke, super grateful for this wonderful journey 🙏 ❤God bless

[@Boylieboyle]

Likewise here, thanks so much to all involved.

[@alexandrazachary.musician]

Congratulations John (and all involved). 🎉🎶🙏🏽💋 Now bring on the Zen. 😜😜😜

[@TheMemesofDestruction]

Thank you Professor.

[@harveyrussellmusic]

Congrats John and team. A huge body of work here

[@woodandwandco]

Very profound insights in this engagement with dia-logos! I especially appreciated Chris's pressing the finger on the open wound in the center of the problematic. Many before us have sought wisdom, and instead have found ways of disengaging from the fundamentality of the virtues that surround wisdom in their quest. The quest does not guarantee the prize. What we endeavor towards in action must be perpetually probed to ensure proper orientation of the self towards the logos. This is not something that can be given or relayed to others through language or through building communities or cathedrals, online or otherwise. It's been tried in the past by better folks than us, and they have always failed. All that remains is the ripples of their ideas and the reactionary activity of others. In a sense, inaction must be a foundational feature of the endeavor for it to remain virtuous. With greater attention from the public comes the risk of succumbing to the malevolence within oneself, namely the desire to act, and the desire for such actions to create tangible impact on the societal level. I have seen this happen to many great thinkers of the past and present. They seek, they obtain, they generate insight, and then they act. When they act is typically when they being to fail to maintain proper orientation. Reexamining one's orientation prior to action may be a lifelong and ultimately fruitless pursuit relative to the external world, and one may never act upon anything of consequence at all throughout their quest, yet attain to the virtues of wisdom. In this sense, building a cathedral as you mentioned John, evoked the same alarm in my own mind, which is that once a framework is drawn up based on the information obtained through the logos, it becomes impossible to maintain proper orientation, because the orientation itself is dynamic in nature. It evolves, it ebbs and flows with the passage of time. What is wise today may not be wise under other circumstances, in different places, or across different time scales. That being said, if we were all inactive, nothing would get done, and there would be no realizable improvement. The question remains though, with all the wisdom, knowledge, and information we now have, how much more do we need for proper orientation? Perhaps what we need is less information. Less knowledge. Less identification with wisdom. More inner practices. More effort towards proper orientation within. More inactivity. In essence, I am proposing releasing the desire to be and act wisely in favor of clarity, or simply seeing things the way they are without the overlay of ideology, metaphysics, sociology, literature, falling into history, or falling into the future. Thank you all for provoking these thought processes within me. I genuinely feel like I am a part of your process, and I think what you are doing here is immensely profound. Thank you for sharing this opportunity with the world!

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

To somewhat echo Taylor, I think it is not only those participating directly that were changed, but also those participating indirectly. Thank you, John, Chris, Guy and Taylor. You are inventio-ing something extraodinarily beautiful!

[@dianagoddard6456]

Thank you everyone for putting this fantastic content online for free.

[@brianskolart]

An absolutely beautiful series that was masterfully done and very transformative. Extremely thankful for its creation.

[@idatong976]

Thank you all for taking your big flashlights with you, digging deep into this process of uncertainty and shining on all those hidden treasures. The silence is heartfelt and will keep me pondering as why it is. Perhaps, the future temple or church has already been built in the cyber space where nobody has yet recognized it. So far, it's quantity vs quality; one can find anything at one's finger tips. John, I feel that what you're doing is making this "invisible" church (or temple) and "sacred" dialogues available to all. Anyone can go in 24/7, regardless it's Sunday or not. What a great endeavour! Please keep it going as long as possible... Thank you.

[@martinchikilian]

Guy’s masterful opening set the tone for what was going to be an amazing conversation among close friends that'd also be the embodiment of the very theme of the whole series. Immense gratitude to John, Chris, Guy, Taylor, and the crew for delivering such an excellent and prescient series for our times.

[@krystofekl8162]

“Whether the future is to be utopia or oblivion will be a touch and go relay race right up to the final moment”. With the addition of this series, we have all we need to really start awakening from the meaning crisis. Let’s steal the culture! And thank you John and everyone for this and all your other wonderful works, I’m very much looking forward to engaging with it deeper and deeper.

[@simvandaele8723]

Absolutely wowed by the depth and breadth of this series, and how it tied into awakening from the meaning crisis and it's own way surpassed it. It's a master piece in my eyes, and a work of art in its own right. Thank you for bringing this into the world!

[@memanjack]

Thanks so much for this series. I've been riding visceral waves for 24 episodes. My container overfloweth, I'll have to return and do another round . Thanks for your commitment to subtlety and moreness. It is wee bit addictive.

[@mavoca-frngrk]

I appreciate the series immensely. The nuanced elements like warm gaze, gestures, and tone of voice serve as a guide for me to recreate the essence of the I-thou relationship. I'm currently navigating the grief stage as I integrate your conversations into my own being.

[@kwan7278]

Wow, just 12min in, I can’t resist to pause and say, thank you, you all, for this fantastic experience of following along with your Dialogos!

[@shaktisiddha8414]

Some ideas brought out so far (about halfway through) : feeling more alone with someone than actually being along. Identifying friendship as a 'range' or spectrum from intimate to not-intimate. Sengstock clarifying ideas. Fellowship touched on. Memory as its own beast.

[@BrodesG]

Thank you so very much John.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

And because I'm deeply moved I am going to do what I try to avoid doing most of the time: share too much personal stuff 🙂. There were just so much synchronicities that popped up (hopefully a sign that my attempt to internalize the project is working). 1) The last weekend of February 2023 I travelled to Austin, Texas to meet with 4 other women - to grieve the Monotheistic Male God, in a 3 day ritual designed by Rebecca Fox, and maybe to give birth to, or at least open space for something new. It seemed to have 'worked' for the other ladies, and partially for me too, but I still have some grieving to do - though most likely I'll be grieving Him the rest of my life. 2) On 10 January 2023 I wrote this at the Stoa: "Ekklesia, Ekklesia! You are not the first woman to be abandoned by a man. Stop wallowing in your misery. Don’t be like that Miss Havisham, withering in her bridal gown, growing older and colder, breeding embitterment. The Bridegroom will not return. Stop hiding in your hurt. Don’t be Maria Owens, putting a spell on herself in her despair, unwittingly cursing her descendants in an attempt to protect them against the agony of love, the pain she suffered waiting for her Lover to come rescue her, her Lover who never came. He never will. Stop swallowing your pride. Don’t follow the fate of poor Fantine, forced to feed herself to vultures so that her daughter may yet live, still dreaming desperately that the Father would man-up and take care of them. He never will. Let life kill the dream you dreamed. The King will not return. But your sister, Physis, needs you to be strong again. Accept your abandonment. Ascend your throne. Be the Queen you are meant to be. Be strong, be brave and rule - as the solitary Queen." 3) I've been writing about building a cathedral. I can't find the passage that I wanted to share, but I found this (from 20 September 2022) "How could I best and most honestly invite uncertainty in my life? I do need stability. To cultivate a stable exterior so that my interior can roam. But how does one do that in this day of changing political, financial, sexual, etc. instability? Through habits, of course. Never has it been more important to cultivate good personal habits. Stability will never again be offered by the culture. We need to build it ourselves. It might seem dull, but building often is. One does not build a cathedral in a constant state of ecstasy. One builds it brick by brick. Quietly. Consistently. I don’t think I need any more falling apart. That’s not how one builds."

[@elsawiegers1093]

i have been deeply moved by especially this last episode, the trust and openness between friends..... thank you very much

[@5hydroxyT]

thank you very much John Vervaeke et al...listening to this series gave me hope for those of us clinging to the sinking ship of Modernity. Chris you are the epitome of the poet-philosopher and you were absolutely on fire this last episode! Looking forward to whatever comes next...

[@scythermantis]

Great episode. Some of the assertions have a bit of a Eurocentric/Western bias, as religion is on the rise in India, much of the Middle East, and many parts of China, and is still extremely prevalent and influential in Africa and South America.

[@yoganandavalle]

That "oponent processing", during the session, between Chris and John was remarkably important.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

This is pure gold. Moves me deeper than any other dialogos I've ever witnessed. What a conclusion!❤(Still have half an hour to watch - blessed to 'have to' go and meet with true friends now - looking forward to it!)

[@scottjrowan]

Like a fine wine this series gets better with age. Thank you deeply John, Chris, Guy , Taylor and everyone involved🙏

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

I feel lucky to have the time outside my professional life to follow this journey. From all the mini series, AFTMC , and after Socrates I have been lucky enough to follow this, and my free time has been best spent being an onlooker of this project. In a time where my attention can be lost in the monotony of useless content. I am thankful that something is available to my ears that is actually worth the effort of attention. so much of the content on the internet is a mental black hole. Even knowing that, I feel sucked in. This is a break from that. It’s my reminder that I care deeply for something substantive about my experience. . This series has existential significance. I imagine it has effected others in the same way it has me. I’m eternally grateful for the work it has taken to carry out this project. Thank you John.

[@stian.t]

Chris. Johnny. I haven't seen the hold series yet, but that's seriously besides any relevance ... ... the Love, Respect,, Affection, Connection You two show for each other..... darn, dudes ♥♥♥ I don't think Ever seen it THIS clearly before, although I do feel I've kinda gotten it, that THAT mutual respect of Yours, have ALWAYS been there. Maybe even since before time "happened" ;-) thanx & thanx again, for ever more ♥

[@kwan7278]

I am finally convinced that this is truly a sacred psycho-technology.

[@mills8102]

Compare what was said here 1:23:30 To what is being said here: kzbin.infoUgkxzqbqEOI2W9Z4V6q7xekhAZNFCOhOAZ55 I think In this way, we can consider it a sacrament.

[@vincentrascon5944]

Looking forward to this 1. Thank you John Vervaeke 🙏

[@Joel-m777]

Thank you very much for doing this John. I will need to watch a few of the episodes multiple times to fully digest. I certainly can now appreciate the meaning of “ I know that I don’t know” in a much more profound way. I am enjoying trying to put some of these learnings into practice in my everyday life.

[@Christopherurich33]

Thank you John

[@colorfulbookmark]

The talks in Dr.Vervaeke's video is good example how talking to friendly mode to people who have opinions to talk with, and many people like it means they are great people.

[@TheMemesofDestruction]

18:16 - The velocity of information changes everything.

[@_ARCATEC_]

👋🤓👍

[@TheMemesofDestruction]

@@_ARCATEC_ 👋 Arcatec! ^.^

[@mills8102]

Thanks to everyone for making this series possible. I have learned a lot and will continue to. Thank you 🙏

[@kwan7278]

Christopher not just catch fire, but exploded starting at the 27min mark. What a beautiful portrait he painted!

[@kwan7278]

To the question of why now, I would propose that all we have is Now.

[@sebastiaan_de_vries]

Thank you so much!!

[@GrzegorzBrysiewicz]

It was very difficult and profound at the same time to share your intimate space and your exchange. Weird and rare moments of brotherhood and love. Thank you for this series. Have a wonderful day

[@moodbox_no]

So deeply grateful for actually putting me in contact with faith through intelligibility by listening deeply to the logos that beautifully unfolded throughout and crystallized itself in this last episode. So much hope in the depth and the care-full and challenging distinctions that I belive and resonate is needed going forward ❤🎉

[@jarisinkkonen7787]

Thank you very much.

[@dianagoddard6456]

My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it. Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.” ― Thomas Merton, Thoughts in Solitude

[@Beatsbeebur]

Speaking of memory. St Augustine confessions has a strange chapter on memory. That chapter Confused me a lot.

[@archanglemercuri]

Let not the spirit of time rule our future forming capacities; as the past as well / is needed for every moment ❤

[@gavwan]

Mainly commenting for the algo as this is such a monumental example of dialogos. Even if the result of this endeavour is perspective shift towards local community and the value of real, sharing conventions around fire pits the benefits may scale on their own exponentially.

[@taratasarar]

Thank you.

[@martinus8403]

Thanks a lot! ❤🎉

[@musclemusclevision]

Thank you John and all for this series. I have found both Awekening from the Meaning Crisis and this course tremendously helpful, restructuring my world view and giving me a vocabulary by which to ruminate on it. I am a Christian first and foremost but if it were possible I would be a Vervaekian second. For some reason I thought there were going to be 25 episodes so sad it's over at 24 but left it on a good one! I would like to agree that this breakdown in right relationship is a perennial one and merely accelerated by technology - it is represented in the Eden story as man is radically disconnected from God, each other and the earth as man makes himself the centre of truth and wisdom. He then tries to reestablish the relationship with God at Babel using his own wisdom / technology which only serves to create more confusion and disconnection. The solution is to surrender the self and follow the Logos. Does this resonate? Thank you

[@shaktisiddha8414]

To Chris' Promethean point: Demigods abound!! Those with powers of persuasion and platforms become scaled-up demigods. We are dealing with them, right now.

[@yoganandavalle]

This is very insightful: Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, Lex Fridman, Tom Bilyeu, Jay Shetty, etc, etc.

[@MatichekYoutube]

this was abs brain smashing .. thanks john, you are a star

[@undergroundmusickaraoke2214]

Hi Mr. Vervaeke thank you for your works. Do you think of make these episodes avaible as a podcast?

[@Beederda]

I appreciate your time and attention JV ❤🍄

[@pteronine9]

Perhaps too, we're losing a sense of shared context. The more we engage privately with the vast array of mediated information via the Internet, the more our shared context unknowingly shrinks. And likewise, the less shared context, the more difficult it is to feel related to the people we engage with offline which reinforces our private engagements with online activities.

[@scythermantis]

So in Vervaeke's "church that isn't a church", is everyone going to be required to wear a VR Headset? But I guess as long as it's not Google or Facebook's brand of headset, we shouldn't be worried?

[@eduardovalle1385]

The oponent processing, back and forth, between John and Chris was great, I think for me it's one of the reasons I am still very interested in the movement surrounding John, there is awareness of the myriad ways this could go wrong; an awareness, I think, Jordan Peterson lost unfortunately, and I've seen nasty intended effects about his movement, maybe something inevitable if you are a rock star like him, which might be worth for the benefits, hard to say. Sometimes I think keeping it small, with respect to John movement, like it is now is better, but it's also hard to say.

[@johnvervaeke]

I really appreciate this comment. It articulated some concerns with which I am always wrestling. Thank you.

[@InterfaceGuhy]

You hit the nail in the head. I think there is the hint of a way forward here in the governance convos with Jordan. We can have a movement that is transparent and yet organically hierarchical. Not everyone wants to dialogos about the same topics and not everyone wants the same responsibilities that come with inherent to building culture.

[@lenaadamopoulos6750]

are you guys implying that the Absolute is hard to describe?

[@missh1774]

🤣 1:02:33 that bit got me lol. The Fate of Descartes 🤣. Sorry there was an illusory lull and my mind drifted. Always love the logos. I shush now hhh.. and then leads into sobering enthusiasm. 1:08:08 Why not catch it before it falls? Why not go through the archway, study the craftsmanship, know the culture, why this saint and not that leaf motif, why this marking above doorways and that pattern in the oculus...why not fall in love again? 1:09:53 And then stand firm against the confusion. That grief when you love what the craftman's record has shown you is heart breaking but only when it becomes forgotten. Yes, to take away one stone means to lose how to return. 1:17:56 It's a measurement of self to another person over a timescale to literally hunt down the original path of where a fundamental shared value had been gradually wiped from the memory of the relationship. 1:19:02 The tears in the grief, I have recently come to know is due to the celestial constellation of Cancer... grrr and the surge of particular planets moving through those phases. Such a shocking thing to go all the way down into that valley ey. 1:23:04 🍷As a life member of this leisurely religion. I would like to thank you for making my wine go sour and the meat become spoilt. Trust me, it probably was the best type of re-habitation soil that was needed during a pursuit for dragons in meadows. Thank you 💛

[@projectmalus]

Hi, when down in that Valley did you meet the Walrus and the Carpenter? Their tears were mixed with joy. Be well!

[@missh1774]

@@projectmalus I will only confirm that the tears of such grief was in remembering the magnificent outpour of joy it had planted in me. Thank you Project ...it's been a wonderful ride.

[@projectmalus]

@@missh1774 Not a lament for but a frisson from, then the seed outpouring a tree: sounds good. Self and Mind the same non-object? The moving of such between objects as eternal being; the objects perceived not spatial being outside the observer but temporal side of light within one's own object, perhaps. Inference from observation between objects that never touch. Thanks!

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

Do we not just have a meaning crisis? Do we also have a meaning opportunity?

[@paigefoster8396]

What if you guys played some instruments together and see what kind of dialogue emerges? No need to call it music, but at least a rhythm will present itself. If you don't play a musical instrument, pick a simple one, or something percussive, like spoons or sticks on wood. Playing something beautiful isn't necessarily the point, it's the nonverbal communication. Playing music with people is one of the most transcendent experiences I've had. Also, this is the first of this series I've watched, so forgive if I've missed something. So much to say about this video and I'm only halfway through. Thanks for the nourishment!

[@matthafer2415]

This first bit about loneliness equivocates alone with solitude.. anyone who could achieve solitude, that is a peaceful aloneness, would of course prefer that to meaning less or unsatisfactory relations. But being alone is definitely not the same as solitude

[@RickDelmonico]

Vervaeke: "One way of thinking about the meaning crisis is that we’ve reduced our understanding of what knowing is to merely the propositional level, and we’ve left out the procedural, the perspectival, the participatory. We’ve left out all the non-propositional aspects. In so far as we’ve done that, we’ve actually disconnected our awareness from most of the kinds of processes that are responsible for creating meaning. So, we think meaning is largely about structuring propositions…but we forget that knowing that gold is an element is dependent on knowing how to do a lot of things. And that knowing-how is dependent on knowing what it’s like to have this conscious state of mind, to have this perspective. And that knowing what it’s like is ultimately based on knowing by being with other things: because I’m an embodied being, I know what it’s like to be a body because I am a body. I participate in embodiment and that connects me to the world in a profound way. So, in so far as we’ve lost an awareness of how we’re embodied and embedded and enacted and extended, we are trapped in a kind of propositional tyranny, which is another way of thinking about the meaning crisis." Truth is not a goal, it is a tool, the goal is valuable meaning. All we have in this life is the lived experience. Every metric of value has a cost/benefit ratio.

[@rimescraft]

I hear they're being a proposition that we are beyond religion and that we could abstract out what is good from it while discarding the meat. And yet, I hear all three of you, although it be dressed up with fancy linguistics, converging on a phrase that is specified in the bible. "Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in the midst of them." You cannot get outside of what is all.

[@thelondoners-lifeisart]

❤️💜💙 life is art ⚡️🙏

[@joshshortt9599]

In my experience, most people aren't even worth interacting with.

[@quentissential]

Who?

[@memopinzon]

10/10

[@memopinzon]

Actually, 11/10

[@yazanasad7811]

Where's the wisdom we've lost in the knowledge and where's the knowledge we've lost in the information - ts eliot Vertical - coming into relationship that which transcends us Horizontal - coming into relationship that which grounds us Logos reduced to logic Contemplative reduced to computational Falling out with someone: Don't remember finest details because always going to get refracted anyway (memory as reconstructive can lead to endless playbacks) (the narcissism of small details/differences) (can always find error and sin in the details) Instead of think it in terms of, what does it mean, what is it signification? Look at it in a more characterlogical way - this is good! (A more poetic soul spiritual outlook)

[@yazanasad7811]

Good literature strives for its own extinction - undermine literature so people can drop it and actually create new dialogues, outside of the form

[@yazanasad7811]

A loneliness that doesn't presuppose youll be driven to find people

[@yazanasad7811]

Revisioning relationship so takes a place in soul - what does it mean, what's it signification. Won't find it in details

[@yazanasad7811]

Hyper objects like evolution, global warming, are graspable through distributed cognitiob

[@yazanasad7811]

Using hyper objects to replace elements that were previously owned by religious institutions. Internet + dialectic into dialogos + cognitive science? Can take over religious school, books, of older religions

[@Ell_Thales]

Hello @johnvervaeke, my name is Alexander and I am Greek and a dissident. I was unemployed and I was taxed with 500 euros, when all Greece tax evades or milks the government tit. I was bullied by leftists online on facebook and I was tortured several times in dehumanising psychiatric yards. Soon i will … … as a political protest. We live through an Orwellian dystopia. There is massive censorship and control of free speech. There is a cruel exploitive system and we can’t speak our minds. Goodbye.

[@projectmalus]

If memories are about the future...then propositions are about the past, with respect to resource acquisition and management, and the objectification of that by this partnership in The Tower: "oh I wish I never met you...." R. Flack // the penthouse of the tower for countries, corporations, religions and people, reduction of complexity in a sequestered space. Might is right, simple in a sterile way, emotion if objectified, reason (edit: substitute wisdom for reason) if left open. "where is the LOVE" "where IS the love" // the mezzanine level, self as non-object able to visit penthouse and garage while residing here so "where" is love. "WHERE is the love" where is love // garage, ecosystem as object (person or planet) shared thru engines, objects within objects, each object having a frequency as grace, and another as being. Might makes right, with no object at the top, just creativity. ^--enter map here, just be aware that often the penthouse has a lowered ceiling that proposes a downward emanation, so the memory is of the "future" glory restricted by the backward looking proposition of need and the lowered ceiling. the skewing of parallelograms as self visiting (connecting) other areas, with the parallelogram itself as "object", and angles decided by resource acquisition and management, and objectification, which is sometimes valid as backwards looking propositions in a creative memory of ecosystem object self. Dialectic into dia-logos as the skewing? thanks

[@_ARCATEC_]

👋🤓👍

[@_ARCATEC_]

The Limit, a bridge. 💓

[@projectmalus]

@@_ARCATEC_ thanks, I'll think about that.

[@projectmalus]

@@_ARCATEC_ Did you have a good harvest?

[@_ARCATEC_]

@@projectmalus We did indeed, Children well feed and plenty of canned fruit for this winter. Self seeding vegetables thriving. I'm going to finish writing my book in six months, so will invest more time to learn more about growing vegetables and preserving them. Did I imagine you said you were going to look at setting up a retreat? What has the land reveled to you lately?

[@Eternalentropy]

What itches your innermost inquiry? What would you most desire to know?

[@scythermantis]

So... Why do we replace the Church, but not the University or Academy? Less young men are going to University as well. Why does the University get a pass here? What privileges it?

[@_ARCATEC_]

🐸 🌈

[@KingMinosxxvi]

bridgets

[@joelvinsant1189]

I guess that's it guys, we reached enlightenment! We found Socrates 😃 high fives all around

[@archanglemercuri]

• she was tempted by the serpent, on the caduceus, but that belongs to Mercury • and Miriam smote with her words Moses • and we all saw what G*d did • so, back to West of the Jordan. Him; son of son of.

[@scythermantis]

I guess Vervaeke forgot to thank all the future Superintelligent Android Children he's going to 'raise', how rude! I guess maybe they can edit it in post?

[@archanglemercuri]

It is better to serve in Heaven • than to rule in Hell.

[@scythermantis]

When you talk about how religion isn't necessary and the function doesn't require religions, and we can do our own 'Cathedral building'... Isn't that just creating yet another religion that tries to pretend it's not? Why should you define 'religion' by anything other than it's function... Vervaeke says he "gets it", but he is also proposing 'raising: superhuman robots as if they are our children... so... should we REALLY trust him?

[@InterfaceGuhy]

I think you raise some great questions, though maybe coming off a little pretentious in text form. I would love to dialogue about this anytime

[@wiktor5016]

Thank you!