Joker: Folie à Deux - Spoiler Review

[@ep6287]

Reviews like this is why I’ve been following Dan since screenjunkies. My taste in movies only overlaps with his maybe 60-70% of the time, but I really like how Dan’s analysis of movies gets me to re-evaluate scenes and the characters in even movies I hated watching

[@BitcoinSkeptic1]

I think he hit the nail on the head with the exception that he didn’t mention the deeply rooted legacy of Heath Ledger’s portrayal.

[@politefan8141]

I agreed with almost everything he said except that I do think the killing of his friend in the cell is what kills the Joker, whereas in the Puddles cross examination you see only cracks begin to form. When they physically assualt the Joker, it's clearly referencing the animated prologue where security is beating the Shadow out of Arthur Fleck. I didn't notice any sexual abuse take place despite internet rumors so don't see that as a serious flaw. You do see the Joker laugh once again but that's a result of the jury sentencing him to his death, in effect perpetuating the cycle of violence which gave rise to his character in the first place. The Joker doesn't blame himself for the murders he himself committed, but he does blame himself for the killing by the guards. I also agree that the weakest element of the film are not the musical numbers, but the lack of characterization of Harley Quinn. Had she been as fully realized as the Joker, this would have been superior to the original. Also agree with Dan's take on the ending. This isn't an origin story of the Batman Joker, but of the mythos which gave birth to the Joker persona.

[@One.Zero.One101]

Some reviewers look at the hivemind opinion first and then adjust their review to fit that hivemind opinion. I think that's eventually bad for everyone, it's bad for the audience, the critics, and the studios. I think it's important to post your honest review even though you know it's going up against the hivemind. Keep up the good work Dan.

[@titasbudreika9116]

​@@politefan8141 Agree, I think killing of his friend is tipping point, where he realize that he is damaging society by being the Joker and refused to be it anymore. It is small scale scene of what is actually happening outside of courtroom, where his followers are getting more and more crazy.

[@Renoistic]

I will fully admit I was confused during the stabbing scene because I thought that guy was his friend who was murdered. So I was trying to figure out why he was even there (did Arthur imagine it all?) and then he stabbed Arthur 😅 Was that guy introduced before? To me it would have made way more sense plot-wise if it HAD been his friend who stabbed him after his "betrayal". As far as I can remember no other patient had even close to his amount of screentime.

[@karencoyle3011]

It seems like people want the big, powerful villain - not the sad little crazy person underneath. But I'm pretty sure EVERY big villain has a sad little crazy person underneath. I thought it was an interesting and uncommon take; I give them credit for that.

[@dante6985]

That is laudable. I (personally) have no issues with that idea. My problems with the movie are pacing issues and the musical elements are not well-integrated.

[@Reebert02]

Dan, never ever change. The world needs more calm, intelligent, and balanced reviewers like you. You are SUCH a welcome change to the more toxic bro-reviewers. When I heard Harley Quinn was going to be in it, I thought they were going to go down a “Natural Born Killers” crime spree route that would solidify Joker’s place on the national stage, inspiring Bruce Wayne to counter him and become Batman.

[@SabiJD]

Do you have anyone specific in mind, re "toxic bro-reviewers"? And are you familiar with Deep Focus Lens (I think her name's Maggie)? If you want another very chill, but intelligent film reviewer, she is very articulate. I disagree with her quite a lot, but I don't need to agree with reviewers or critics - they just need to communicate why they feel the way they do, and not be dismissive of other tastes or takes.

[@TheZackBriggs]

Geeks and Gamers 😅

[@andeekumar2817]

Zip his pants when urdone

[@M_k-zi3tn]

Man outta here with all that. people are allowed to not like a movie. There's no one way to dislike a movie. Ain't nothing toxic about that.

[@TheZackBriggs]

@@andeekumar2817 bruh wth 🤣

[@user-qp5xh9ky4t]

I'm new here but Dan is quickly becoming my favorite reviewer. I feel like we always come away from movies with the same thoughts but he's better at putting it into words

[@FOGSmokebeer]

Go back and find his classic Ms Marvel review back on collider its so funny and his alter ego scoops Mc coy

[@user-qp5xh9ky4t]

@@FOGSmokebeer what's the title, I can't seem to find it

[@edo4896]

They probably are referring to his Fandom Entertainment/Screen Junkies Review. Not Collider (it's easy to confuse them) ​@@user-qp5xh9ky4t

[@Greaves1047]

The internet in general misses these intelligent people discussing and breaking stuff down where people just sit down and listen instead of trying to speak their own minds.

[@pikasalsachu]

The story reflects exactly what is happening to the movie. People wanted "their Joker" but they got Arthur Fleck.

[@dbdeets]

Great comment. Sums it up in one sentence. Now I like it even more. 😍

[@Aznmok]

People did get their joker, that’s why the first one did so well. They then gutted joker in the second film.

[@terimckeown4595]

NO, I wanted them both. I like Arthur

[@geogaddi6215]

@pikasalsachu when he said that he is only arthur she/audience leaves the courtroom/cinema . The reactions to the film is the point of the film. There are tons of scenes reflecting that.

[@gilbertoarellano8525]

That’s nice symbolism and all but you still have to make an entertaining movie at the end of the day this movie was just so dam boring those critics and viewer scores speak for themselves.

[@duckywinks]

I think I could’ve gone along with what this movie was trying to do if it wasn’t so damn boring. In execution, it’s just a recap of the first movie with it constantly poking and nudging going, “Hey, did you know The Joker is actually not supposed to be a cool guy?” And the musical elements were so lackluster that they couldn’t pull me out of that repetitive funk. It’s like the movie exists just to explain the point of the last movie.

[@totesmagotes213]

Couldn’t they have gotten the message of him not being a good guy across in a much more popular way by just turning him into a full on villain called Joker?

[@michaelkennedy8270]

You know, years from now, I think that people will look back on the backlash to this film and think: 'why so serious?'

[@TheTalmidian]

Unsurprisingly, Dan actually understands this film and what it was trying to do, and still gives it his fair assessment. You're the best out there right now, Dan.

[@christopheraquino9214]

If Dan is the best we have, we are in trouble.This is the problem with KZbin. How can you give an in depth review of anything (especially film) in under 15 minutes. And by the way......GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

that's right, grape fixed mental illness

[@scottbatley1983]

@@JoshuaKevinPerryIt didn’t fix it. It broke him. He was SAd growing up, and eventually that lead him to become the Joker. As the Joker, he wasn’t crazy powerful. Then as the Joker he was graped. Meaning he wasn’t powerful. He’s just depressed and all the other stuff the shrink said about him in the trial. He’s still mentally ill, but now longer has any sense of power.

[@kmn2222]

this movie is so meta lol just like everyone leaving the court once Arthur drops the joker persona just like everyone who hates the movie

[@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266]

And the psycho who shanks Arthur could be a representation of the pissed off audience that actively rallied against the movie, telling everyone else NOT to see it.

[@RonyH7]

First of all, I do think sexual abuse happened to Arthur by the guards, so I don't believe it was handled well. You can say the joker was abused out of him, and that's a terrible message. Other than a few standouts, the musical numbers detracted from the film. They don't add much and literally pause the actual plot. Overall, I didn't like this movie. It just seems confused.

[@boilderrik893]

I have to say, I heard a lot of bad things about the music before i saw it, so maybe that effected how i saw them, but i didn't see any issues with any of them except the longest one, with the tapdancing, which dragged a bit.

[@SpencerPhillips-co7sx]

Agreed I couldn't stand the guards they were very unlikeable and the way they treated Arthur and the inmates were horrible and not right, definitely mishandled and not facing any consequences

[@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168]

I think what you're saying is countered by the fact that Arthur's face drops as they choke and murder one of the other inmates. I think it's the inmate who not only supported Arthur but was kinda friendly with him. I think that's what influenced it. He seemed to realise that being that kind of person would only hurt the people around him, Gary's testimony and Sophie's testimony also contributed to that and they were the only people who escaped his wrath. I feel like that makes more sense, plus if SA did occur in that moment then that's only one of a lifetime's worth of abuse and I don't see how it would influence him into renouncing "the Joker".

[@RonyH7]

@@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168 and why is Arthur completely silent, what happened in that bathroom then? Even Arthur makes the quip about if the guard is gonna buy him dinner first. Why are they undressing him in the bathroom just to show him fully dress in the next scene. When SA occured is not just one more time, it's a retraumatizing incident that also would bring up the other times. but also what makes sense and what happens in the movie don't have to be aligned.

[@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168]

@@RonyH7 He does make that joke cause he thinks that’s what’ll happen and there’s for sure the implication that that’s what happened, but we don’t see it and even if it did happen, that’s just not how the next scene and then the scene after that was played. Why throw in that moment and visual cue that I pointed out about the cellmate being killed and his look if it had no bearing on his “change”? And plus, why would the already abusive prison guards doing that to him alone make him change anyway, what does it have to do with who he is? An innocent person getting killed, alongside the testimony of the two people he spared and their lives being affected, that’s a stronger reason for him to see the negative impact of what being The Joker is doing.

[@boilderrik893]

I think i'm pretty forgiving as to how Arthur got where he ended up. I think the movie did enough to convince me. Very much appreciate your thoughts here Dan. You've helped me understand a lot of my feelings on this film and why I liked it so much.

[@alkirehomevideos]

I remember after the first Joker came out a lot of comic book fans were mad because it didn’t feel like Arther Fleck could ACTUALLY be the joker. He seemed too pathetic, weak, too stupid, etc. My guess is the audience for Joker Folie A Deux wanted to see the sequel finally develop Arther into the comic book genius villain that they believe the joker should be. Instead, the creative team doubled down on comic book fans original opinion of Arther from the first Joker - that he never was and never had what it would take to be the comic book maniacal villain version of Joker.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

sadly you are right

[@jamesrochester2459]

Can't recall a single person complaining that they didn't like Joker for that reason. Interesting how much speculation these movies engender about why other people like or dislike them - from both sides.

[@ravengreven902]

I hate how every movie musical since Anne Hathaway won that freaking Oscar now has to have at least one song where characters sing quietly with their voice quivering and breaking. Except this movie is that stretched out to fill two hours.

[@MysteryMii]

Charts on Monday is gonna be a wild one

[@jameszetterman4487]

At this point I think that "The Joker" is the most volatile role in popular media to cast and play... it may as well be Macbeth in clown makeup.

[@dante6985]

It's either Oscar-worthy (Nicholson, Ledger, and Joaquin Phoenix) or schiesse (Folie a Deux, Suicide Squad).

[@chrisretzlaff2895]

Thank you for finally saying it...the moment he turns his back on being the Joker, Harley gets up and walks out and tells him he is nothing. That essentially happens with the audience at the same time. Mildly brilliant IMO

[@Malt454]

Yes, because it's far easier to reject Arthur (and the sequel) than it is to question why we want a damaged person to continue committing murders for our entertainment in the first place.

[@Duckman_Drake]

Personally, I find it kinda pretentious to do something to intentionally cause a negative reaction then go "aha! see! We knew you'd have a negative reaction, you're the problem we're addressing and it validates our movie!" Especially in this case where no one wanted a Joker 2 in the first place.

[@chrisretzlaff2895]

@Duckman_Drake I don't feel they intentionally did anything for the audience to respond in the same way, but they performed it so well to portray Harleys turn that it had an equal effect on the audience.

[@Duckman_Drake]

@@chrisretzlaff2895 Fair assessment, but I definitely felt like the parallel was intentional; though that could just be the artsy fartsy vibe of the rest of the film in general making it seem that way.

[@INRamos13]

It's really not brilliant. It's the same type of meta-commentary that The Last Jedi did 7 years ago. It's not new, it's not brilliant, it's not cute, it's just a director deliberately antagonizing his paying audience. Then when that same audience reacts negatively, the people calling the movie brilliant start pulling out the adjectives ending in -ist and -phobe.

[@Billmao]

Saw it getting a D on Cinemascore, that has got to be one of the steepest drop from original to sequel.

[@manuelalbertoromero9528]

Has any film gotten such a grade drop?

[@Themoomabides]

I can honestly say I agree 100% with your assessment of Joker 2. The AMC Burbank crowd I saw it with was filled with young men hoping they got a violent action film and couples hoping they’d get a Harley-Joker cosplay inspiring film. People want Joker to do the evil they can’t. And then there’s the film nerds liking it for being a musical lol

[@JackOsborneFilm]

Cinephiles will dig this one. The DC Snyder fan boys and wider audiences won’t methinks. Will have to see - I enjoyed it - definitely better than the 33% on Rotten.

[@SabiJD]

​@@JackOsborneFilmI dunno, I'd probably be counted as a 'cinephile', and both these films look dreadful to me. Partly because I get the distinct impression Todd Phillips isn't that smart, and is incapable of making a coherently mature work. Funny you namecheck Snyder, because I get a similar vibe from both going from their interviews and remarks over the years. "Delusions of grandeur", as a scruffy lookin' nerf herder might say. From everything I've heard above glimpsed, Joker 2 is more interesting. But I think the whole project was doomed from the start.

[@kityhawk2000]

​@@JackOsborneFilmdoes Snyder live rent free in your head? Just wondering why you feel the need to randomly bring him up? Film critics are some of the biggest "cinephiles" around and the majority of them did not like this movie and the audience score is in lockstep with theirs. Do you really think all these people are just too dumb to get it?

[@JackOsborneFilm]

@@SabiJD I didn’t think it was perfect by any stretch, but I was a little disappointed by the first film, it was like a King of Comedy and Taxi Driver re-boot with a thin Batman coat of paint. I’m not sure I even like Todd Philips or Joaquin Phoenix as people - but as a film it worked more as this tragedy, and the music helps convey some of the insanity and feelings of the characters - it works better in the realm of obscurity in my opinion. Is he the Joker? Is it multiple personalities co-existing is it all a fantasy from his cell? I’m interested to see how it pans out.

[@williamfeliciano8980]

In the first movie we saw Arthur Fleck BECOME Joker and at least for me it played as a warning saying that people and society should be kinder otherwise we'll create monsters like The Joker. That's why I expected to see Joker, NOT Arthur Fleck, meaning the character we saw at the epilogue of the first film who didn't have any makeup but you could tell was a different person than Arthur Fleck. I wanted to see THAT guy have a negative psycological impact on other people like Harlee BECAUSE society hadn't learned the lesson of the first movie therefore the madness and desperation continued to spread.

[@TheOrangutan01]

You have explained my vision perfectly 🤝

[@williamfeliciano8980]

@@TheOrangutan01 😊 Thank You!

[@JakeGottfriedStudios]

I think you nailed that. When they first announced Harley for the sequel, a real down to Earth version of her story would be fantastic. I haven't seen the movie so I can't have an opinion, but this version would had interested me more than what we got because it's called "Joker" not "Fleck"

[@krlos2588]

Nah the director needed to be edgy he made a BILLION dollar movie with the first one so he knows better than the audience because we don't get it. There is no joker, people are dumb liking joker or batman so let's have some musical to make fun of the people that thinks they know what joker is. And don't give people anything that they want just tease some scene with the joker makeup and laugh about it at the end.

[@GihirahimOfTheShadow]

Exactly. It feels like the sequel is gaslighting us because we SAW Arthur in Arkham in the first movie's final scene, and he was carrying himself in a manner completely different than his old pathetic self. So the idea that he's still his old pathetic self in Arkham in the sequel makes no sense.

[@Benergi]

In the first movie there was lots of moments where you questioned what you saw, reveals every 25 mins or so, and you could feel the tension building, there was always a sense of dread that something horrible is about to happen as thing get worse and worse and worse for Arthur… in this movie, there was none of that. I wouldn’t have even minded a musical but it should have been way more visually chaotic, it felt like an amateur student attempt of a musical. Also I felt that as soon as the dialogue was getting interesting, the writers didn’t know how to bring it home and instead made the character sing. Also I love characters studies and don’t want to sound like the guy who just wants explosions and violence, but this movie needed something to shock audiences throughout. I feel like there was way way less emotional peaks in this one compared to the first. No lines stuck in my head from this one. It’s not awful but it’s awful compared to the first, as a reg movie it’s a 4/10 for me, largely due to pheonixs acting.

[@michelehamilton961]

This is the best examination of the film I have seen. I can’t say it makes me want to see the film but I have more respect for what the director was trying to do.

[@plato6460]

Arthur at the end of the Joker (2019) is the Joker. The last scene of him in the hospital shows how he completely embraced Joker and is laughing about the joke “you wouldn’t get.” It’s not the Arthur that started the film. It’s a completely new person who tipped over the edge and even killed again just because. The bloody footprints show that. The woman he is talking to didn’t bully him or ruin him like the people he killed in the movie. He just does it because he is mad. Joker 2 introduces Arthur as if he is the Arthur from the start of Joker (2019) and he straight up isn’t. He is a different guy now and he wouldn’t be questioning anything about a shadow. There are not two different people in one body. It’s one person now in one body.

[@ShogunZIlla]

Well put

[@norm-bb3bb]

Yes, and that’s the reason why I think this movie as a sequel is terrible, is a good movie but a terrible sequel because Arthur is supposed to be dead at the end of the first one, there's only the Joker

[@JamesMatthewGallagher]

Exactly. A sequel would make far more sense showing him become an even better, cunning and sinister criminal. Harley Quinn didn't even need to be a part of this Joker. The writing here is just really, really bad. Like, last season of Game of Thrones bad.

[@lorenzolazzarini1799]

The movie does reference the fact that when he first entered the prison he wasn't like that: they ask him to tell jokes and everyone knows about him and treats him a sort of superstar weirdo. The thing is, in a prison like that, with pills and everything, he slowly regressed back to his Arthur Fleck persona as he was before the event of the first movie. I agree it should have been made more explicit, since it's an important aspect of the story, and perhaps the timeline also doesn't help (why is the trial taking place so long after the events? I don't know how realistic that would be) but I don't think that's why people watching the movie are upset. People expected Arthur to free himself from prison, together with Lee, and to become in this way the Joker in a definite and "explosive" way - losing it completely. The movie explicitly plays with that possibility but in the end doesn't deliver it and rather shows that Arthur fails at it. The apotheosis was reached at the end of the first film cannot be recreated and he is left with nothing - because the love he longed for was only directed towards the Joker (a fantasy), not him.

[@jeraldcatapang]

This.

[@Panthror]

About why Arthur dropped the Joker persona: In the first film he contemplated suicide before turning the gun on Murray. A fact he is confronted with in this movie, followed up by the question: "Do you still want to die?" Arthur knowing he would get the death penalty if he confessed to his crimes, ultimately decided that that is what he wanted: To die. He even said so in his courtroom confession: (paraphrasing) "I can't go on with this pathetic life.". He's even smiling after being stabbed by the other inmate. And that is the conflict of the movie: What does Arthur want? vs. What do Lee / the lawyer / Harvey Dent / the psychologist want?.

[@lemonysnick5171]

I'm getting pretty frustrated with the dog pile from movie reviewers on this film. I thought it was different and interesting. Good luck getting WB to take more risks after this one!

[@krlos2588]

@@lemonysnick5171 it was different and riskier. But that doesn't make it good. The first one was very risky and was so well made that people loved it and it made 1 billion dollar in the box office. This dog pile is the result of a director making fun of the audience that liked the first movie.

[@lemonysnick5171]

@@krlos2588 Fair point. I can see why people didn't think it was good. I just enjoyed it more than the folks partaking in the dog pile. Legit question though: when did the director make fun of the audience? Do you mean because of how Arthur was handled in this movie?

[@MrGregBMX]

I think the Gary Puddles scene could have been the chip in the wall but the wrecking ball for Arthur comes when Ricky is killed by the guards after defiantly singing when Arthur returns from court. That’s when Arthur realizes that people can get hurt and die from following his Joker persona and really, he just wants to be loved

[@venkatsrinivasan3714]

I actually liked the movie for how brave it was with these choices, making a joker sequel all about Arthur fleck is super bold. And it did work to an extent, not as good as the first one but still pretty good!

[@i.870]

I will say the joker not having a proper origin story and his "clown prince of crime" thing being stolen from a guy who turned out to be fraud is very joker. didnt like how it was executed here though, it was frustrating because with a bit of tweaking that could have been a great way of loosely connecting the joker movies to the new batman. so you get Arthur a mentally ill pathetic broken loner being the source/ origin point of both Batman and the Joker.

[@ericsilva-gomez2481]

Dan, your breakdown of the film was brilliant. I still hated the movie, but I feel I have a better understanding of it now

[@JackOsborneFilm]

I really liked it. I thought it’s much more ambitious and reaches further than the first. I thought the musical sequences worked - the whole thing is a bit of a fever dream - so it gelled tonally. Framing Harley Quinn as this manipulative villain of the piece was an angle I wasn’t expecting. 7 or 8 out of 10 - not the 33% Rotten Tomatoes suggests. This is gonna be a Last of Us vs Last of Us Part II scenario.

[@bethperforms6191]

Agree with you 100%-thanks for posting!!

[@robertstoner4973]

I don't get the hate. It had some problems but overall, I thought it was shot well, acted well, and I loved the Build A Mountain number.

[@_JellyWalker]

12:35 there was a very similar Harley/Joker dynamic in the Telltale Batman game. That game made A LOT of BIG departures from the classic Batman mythos but executed them all really well, IMO.

[@stephencolor2010]

Just left and I enjoyed it. Kind of shocked by the D Cinema Score. Your conversation point about how meta it's rejection was is spot on.

[@KevinMartin-zn8rh]

After the guard abuse scene, while the guards kill his buddy, Arthur is remembering the aftermath of his appearance on the talk show. He admires his reflection and joker persona in the mirror then stops smiling, walks to the sink and begins washing off his makeup. It cuts to Arthur crying in his cell as he hears his friend die at the hands of the guards. I took it as this was the moment Arthur realized the joker was truly a performance. A one time culmination of life events. It was a moment and the moment ended. And he was indeed only Arthur fleck.

[@rahulmd1]

The only “Joker: folie a deux” review I’ve seen that I fully agree with. I always felt the arc progression would be one where the misunderstood character gets abandoned by all, and it was never a DC comic book movie - at this point Todd Philips was just borrowing names.

[@krlos2588]

So the goal was to play with people expectations all along? Does that sounds like a good plan to you for multimillion dollar movie? That sound like an art student project more than a sequel from a Billion dollar movie.

[@luckyspurs]

Just watched Last King of Scotland again (first time in about 5 years). Feels like the first Joker movie is like the first half of Last King of Scotland, where James McAvoy suddenly gets everything seemingly going his way, despite never really doing anything to warrant it. Were people expecting that to last the whole time, through sequels.

[@charliebrouun6510]

​@@krlos2588Let the artist create his vision. It will be at least more interesting that the endless generic slop that we've been getting. I did not like the movie, but I'm glad that Todd Phillips was able to tell the story the way he wanted.

[@rahulmd1]

@@krlos2588 The “goal” was to tell Arthur Fleck’s story as Todd Philips and the creatives envisioned it. In the first movie as well, the “Joker” is very reactive to his traumas and the whole societal collapse is incidental, so I feel keeping it to Fleck’s story and not like an escalation (like Nolan’s Joker) tracks. Even though the execution was sloppy, props to the creative team who didn’t see this as a sequel to a billion dollar movie, but as the conclusion to a story. They should’ve been more responsible with the budgeting. As Dan said, given how the first movie’s treatment was and how the story ended, if audiences expected a comic book movie, that’s a bit surprising. 🤷‍♂️

[@rahulmd1]

@@luckyspurs will add to my watch list

[@chillindylan6497]

Anyone who thought Arthur Fleck was going to somehow become a criminal mastermind really needs to go back and watch the first movie again.

[@krlos2588]

There are a lot of things they could have done with that storyline but they decided to just make fun of audience and their expectations. I would have like a movie of the joker turning the doctor into Harley or the joker making chaos that he cannot really control and mentally suffering. This movie was just pointless.

[@chillindylan6497]

@@krlos2588 I think audience expectations are greatly misplaced. I never thought Arthur would ever become the Clown Prince and I'm not sure why anyone would want him to, he's an extremely weak man. Joker should never have had a sequel to begin with; Phoenix and Phillips were never interested in making one.

[@TheZackBriggs]

​@krlos2588 Yeah I wanna see a 70 year old Joker limp around Gotham City fighting Batman 😂

[@Malt454]

I don't think the movie made fun of the audience and its expectations, but it did question whether or not a homicidal maniac, even a fictional one, should have a fan club. The movie just decided to do more than to show the Joker and his girlfriend go on a killing spree until they're predictably stopped, committed and then poised to do it all over again. Some people might not be entertained by the movie because it questions some people's idea of entertainment.

[@norm-bb3bb]

Yes, I did, the ending was ambiguous for a reason, this sequel just doesn't make any sense

[@rykeman916]

I like that you bring up audience expectations, because I think my expectations are what allowed me to enjoy it for what it was. Also, hearing the absolute dogpile of hate before I saw it had me watching the movie wondering when it was going to become terrible

[@ryanbigguy]

This was exactly my experience. I was sitting in the theater about an hour in, wondering when the movie was supposed to get bad and it just never did.

[@thedude3288]

same, I kind of like it in a requiem for a dream sort of way, the musical stuff was a "meh" miss though.

[@INRamos13]

The moment Harley says she's pregnant while smoking and then bursts into song is the exact moment I thought "oh, I understand the criticism now"

[@scottbatley1983]

At the 15 minute mark. He was definitely SAd by the guards. And that broke him. His repeated SA growing up is what eventually brought the Joker out, and he finally felt powerful. Then the guards SAd him, and he realized the Joker couldn’t protect him; he’s just Arthur. That ended the Joker for Arthur, but not the idea of the Joker for the people of Gotham.

[@cedricroney1475]

They were expecting him to fully embrace the joker persona and become the clown prince of crime

[@keleynal4424]

I think this movie did subversion right. I think a lot of Joker fans projected what they wanted onto the first movie and this movie too. And that’s super appropriate because that’s exactly what happens to Fleck in the movie. Radical citizens want him to be more than he is, just like some DC fans wanted this to be more. I absolutely love how this still functions as a Joker origin story, but a much better one than I thought they were initially. They created an environment where the real Joker could be believably created, but who is that person? Where exactly did they come from? That’s left a mystery which is perfect for Joker in my opinion. I think Star Wars made Boba Fett worse in many ways in making origin story for him. I think Joker is the same- the less we know the “real” him, the better. So Joker 2 was just about a pathetic guy dealing with his delusions and getting caught up in something out of his control. And it ended with a gag at the audience’s expense. That’s so Joker.

[@nokaroundgy8674]

Great review, Dan! I was actually going to pass on this movie because of all the negative buzz, but this actually has piqued my interest enough that I might actually give it a chance while it's still in theaters.

[@WackoWambo]

Give it a chance!

[@bigwig252]

No it's terrible.

[@MrPcgamer4ever]

You should see it.

[@INRamos13]

You'll regret it

[@MattPerrin]

Haven't seen it yet, but Dan's points on the "us vs me" relationship is reminding me of NIN's song "Star****ers". Also applies to the song's hook "You think this song's about you, don't you..." to the Joker fanatics, critics, and Joker/Harley as well.

[@smoyejx]

I largely agree with your general assessment, I think I liked it more than you as I thought Arthur's story arc worked perfectly for me. Because Joker wasn't a separate personality from Arthur, nor had it notably become his dominant personality, just a side of him where he's able to lash out with violent impulses. So the way that Lee, and others as you said, try to push him to be the Joker encourages him to play into that role as we see him do a bit, but it's not genuine in the way that it came out last time because though he's frustrated in his circumstances, he clearly doesn't have the same murderous impulses, which makes sense since he's most motivated to try and live in the fantasy he imagines with Lee. That being said, I also agree that Lee's story arc was not as clear, I mean, it made sense but we didn't really get as much time with her so her 'turn', if it can be called that, felt a bit cold and sudden, even though the groundwork was laid for it. For me, the slow pacing and the songs hurt the film for me so it's far from a favorite of mine, but I thought the story was solid, and Phoenix put in a really strong performance again as Joker/Fleck.

[@bethperforms6191]

Agree with your read of the film. I found it powerful exploration of subjectivity, role play, power, and agency. Everyone demanded to know who Arthur “really” was, but it was an unanswerable question that only served to put additional intolerable pressure on a deeply traumatized human. He only really knew himself in the kitschy song and dance numbers that he watched on variety TV-those songs had a talismanic force for him, allowing him to focus and access feelings that were typically too terrifying/shameful to name and articulate consciously.

[@travislawrencemusic]

This is why you're my most trusted reviewer: thoughtful, measured, and true-to-self. I haven't seen the movie yet, primarily because it's bombing so hard. But, after this review, I kinda want to see it now, flaws and all. I, too, never bought Arthur as the criminal mastermind that could challenge Batman, so to know he isn't THE Joker makes me like the concept of this movie better.

[@geogaddi6215]

Harley Quinn represents the audience. Don´t People see the obvious. It´s a commentary about what we want from such a Film!

[@tonygohagan2766]

100%

[@adel885]

Ok ? I understand it and i hated it

[@snoozyq9576]

Why can't people just dislike a bad movie. Who cares if she represents the audience. They should still make the movie good

[@geogaddi6215]

I 100% respect that you didn't like it. But I hope you do respect that I liked the idea to create something different what people expected.

[@bipolarewok]

My first thought when it ended was “I actually really liked this bad movie”

[@timnoori668]

U said it best all these critics wanted to pull Joker out of Todd Phillips for their own entertainment instead of watching a movie about mental illness and how society treats it

[@Renoistic]

If it wanted to discuss mental illness it did a horrible job of it. I've seen 70s movies with better understanding of the issue.

[@VeraHannaford]

Saw it this afternoon and liked it. It's a character study of a broken man in a failed society. The musical interludes were a break from the grim reality and a peek into Arthur's mind. Phoenix's performance was amazing, and Gaga was good, too, although her character didn't really work for me.

[@DavidJacobsvo]

Think you’re 100% correct on expectations.

[@Dingalsodong]

So it looks like Dune 2 is going to be the best blockbuster movie of 2024 after all

[@theycallmemrboombastic6870]

You spelled deadpool wrong

[@Mrmoneybussiness]

​@@theycallmemrboombastic6870nah dawg, he didn't

[@DanielKucharík-y6t]

​@@theycallmemrboombastic6870sure buddy😂

[@Likablock1507]

@@theycallmemrboombastic6870are you stupid?

[@henrycepeda1844]

Thankfully Alien, Dune, Apes, and Deadpool were all good ! Alien and Dune my favorite

[@heralddinkldorf2608]

as someone who didn’t love the movie by any means. It’s nice to hear someone have something to say about the movie other than just calling it dumb and saying they don’t like musicals.

[@witchingroom]

What if the real Jokers are the friends we made along the way?

[@SeansMovieCorner]

I really appreciate a review like this. I liked the movie, and am glad to see a review that credits the movie for what it did well.

[@TheOrangutan01]

"Joker" was truly born when he put the bullet in Murray Franklins's head. Joker is the ONLY avenue that sets him free. For Arthur to turn on a dime and say "there is no Joker" because he was naive enough to believe the lies that Lee fed him seems ridiculously bad writing. Todd Phillips said that 'there's always been a little bit of Joker (musical expression) within him', so why would Arthur go back to a place that made him sick in the first place? This is not consistent with the character in the 2019 movie, not because he doesn't become THE Joker - because it erases the progression of Arthur's arc in the first film.

[@krlos2588]

I completely agree but there are people like Dan that enjoy going against expectations just for the surprise effect of it that at the long run doesn't go well for the movie. This movie felt like Phillips wanted to make fun of people that liked the Joker and thought the Joker was about the existing Batman IP. Great joke......

[@norm-bb3bb]

@@TheOrangutan01 Bingo, that's what I think, it looks like Todd forgot he made the first Joker movie

[@INRamos13]

Todd Philips didn't like that some of "the wrong people" liked the first movie, so he made it his absolute priority for the sequel to "fix" that.

[@norm-bb3bb]

@@INRamos13 OMG he's so stupid, there's a reason the first one made a billion, people of all races and genders enjoyed the movie for what it was, a social commentary

[@musayibghani3986]

I don't agree that the joker persona sets him free. It's what gets him to sink to his lowest. The sequel understands that the 'freedom' he feels isn't an escape from his life but just a fantasy but not one that stops him from feeling pain and further repercussion and consequence in his own life. The Gary Puddles and the death of his friend gets him to understand that the 'Joker' hasn't helped him, it just made him sink deeper into his madness. It was a very good character study on this low person.

[@saveyurs911]

It was not what I expected but I liked it anyway. Great review

[@thedude3288]

I think Todd kind of attacks SOME of the people who like the first Joker. The way I describe this movie to my friends is like this: Did you see Joker and think "wow I really want a sequel where we get the joker going full villain mode or leading the clown anarchy revolution"? if No then good job you dont need to see the sequel, if Yes then watch the sequel to get that thought beaten out of you. if you left the first movie and thought "YES! thats the joker!" you don’t really know the joker. theres so much more to the joker than just being crazy, he doesnt just laugh his way into beating batman and pulling off complicated plans and committing atrocities.

[@memes3751]

This movie is cringe and bad

[@TheIndianaGeoff]

I don't love The Joker. But it you can see the Joker peeking out. I hoped this movie would be a different take on the Joker origin. Ah well, c'est la vie.

[@MinosML]

Haha, I wonder how "getting that thought beaten out of you" is working out for them when selling tickets 💀

[@darkalion7]

Arthur was s3xually abused by his dad when he was a kid, so it makes sense how broken he seems after the bathroom scene. Also, I wanna say that Dan is one of the best movie critics on KZbin.

[@loltanios]

Good take on the movie. I enjoyed it, the movie actually flew by for me.

[@NoCureForMe]

This movie, in my perspective, is about fan culture, so I agree with your theories: Arthur peaked in the original film, being on tv with Murray Franklin and getting everyones attention. That succes can't be replicated, no matter how hard Arthur tries to return to the Joker persona. And I agree on the two major flaws: Lady Gaga should have had a bigger role and the third act need more natural transition.

[@extofer]

The studio did mismanage expectations. I don’t believe the average Batman fan is going into this movie expecting some art house puzzle to put together to make it make some semblance of sense. It’s fine that this is the mental gymnastics you had to go through to allow you to enjoy it more, but moviegoers aren’t trying to treat the film the same way. I believe the reason why people liked the first one is because it made this infamous character a mystery box again. It was Joker redesigned. But because it kept just enough lore in its container, just enough familiarity, it resonated with comic book fans. This one was such a complete misfire, I actually understand why fans are coping by saying maybe Todd sabotaged his own movie because the first one didn’t “need” a sequel. As an adjacent fan of superheroes myself, it all just feels obviously the wrong move on the studio and director. However, I don’t believe that a director would do that (he could have just said no) and it’s probably giving Todd too much credit other than to say he just made a bad movie, which he’s done before. The movie was just .. bad. No justification for it will make it better. It didn’t reach its targeted audience. And that’s a fail on WB, Todd Phillips, and all of the rest of the people that thought this was a good idea.

[@krlos2588]

This is exactly how I feel and you put it so much better than I was trying to say. It is a bad movie. People had all types of expectations and probably any of those could have worked if it was done well but not this movie. It felt like Todd wanted to show the audience that they were wrong on what the first movie was about.

[@extofer]

@@krlos2588thanks! Really it’s a little sad, right? On paper, a joker musical might work, but given the bravado and grittiness already established in the first film, you’re gonna need to pull out all the stops to make it all come together. I feel like this film collapsed in on itself by the weight of its big ideas. Maybe it was hubris or intention on the part of Todd Phillips. Or maybe it was something else but clearly most people aren’t impressed.

[@musayibghani3986]

​@@extoferWow man, I couldn't disagree more. I thought it handled the themes of mental illness, poor society infrastructure, and a failing society and a protagonist who suffers from all of those factors so well.

[@Advent3546]

I kept wanting them to show what that TV movie looked like. Who did they get to play Arthur in that TV movie?

[@queenofhearts64]

same

[@reenilicious]

Same here. I kept waiting for them to show a clip or a movie poster, but nothing!

[@musayibghani3986]

The TV Movie is essentially 'Joker 2019' in this universe.

[@obizhot]

This may be redundant: Thank you Dan! For my own reasons, despite it's acclaim, I have yet to see Joker or it's sequel. What I really appreciate about your reviews (and work overall) is your integrity and willingness to be open about what challenges you in the art you bring to the channel. Your journalist-like instincts are commendable, and when I do watch these movies I will be better able to appreciate them.

[@paradisecity0406able]

In the words of the Joker, "And here we go!"

[@halane4790]

I think the decisive factor was the same as always- Arthur wants to be liked and loved. He wants Lee to love him for himself, and so he goes back to himself. I agree mostly with your review and thoughts, though. I find it interesting that this movie, which was going to be faced with conflicting expectations from several groups, is so much about the media expectations on Arthur/Joker. That may be the most interesting thing about the film! 🤣 Much like the first Joker, I thought it was an ok movie.

[@krlos2588]

For me is not an expectation of the character. The movie feels messy. It has a weird pace and I am not sure what this story was. I wasn't looking for batman but I was hoping for a good story and I didn't get that. I got weird musical scenes in a kind of courtroom drama and prison.. It wasn't for me. It was not an enjoyable movie experience and I think the director was making fun of the batman audience by keep teasing joker just to tell them there is no joker. Acting was fine but it wasn't enough to save the movie.

[@matthewobrien2247]

Great review and analysis Dan! My thought were always Arthur Fleck was never THE Joker (Jack Oswald White) so it’s not surprising the story arc wouldn’t culminate into the arch criminal turn some were expecting. (The character who killed him at the end was only named “young inmate” possibly Jack White and it looks like he was cutting himself but unsure if he was committing suicide or carving his face) Fleck and the mythology surround him would be the inspiration for THE Joker. I’m not a fan of musicals, which I don’t think this was, but I thought the music effectively communicated their shared “folie” (delusions/fever dreams) and the performances and directing , cinematography, score, musical pieces were strong all around. Wasn’t sure I’d enjoy it and was ready to bail if I didn’t, but I did and will see it again. I think this movie will grow with time but will continue to bomb at the box office. I think expectations of something it was never going to be, led many to dislike it…

[@thehalcyonflight]

Dan I’m gonna have to give you some push back on something you said. There actually ISNT a Batman movie where Batman Shows up at a “point of no return”. In fact, the ONLY movie where Batman shows up brand new, is Batman begins, and even then, the only people controlling the crime are the mob. Every other movie, we show up and Batman has already existed in the city for some time.

[@becca7596]

7:20 he’s not trying to laugh here intentionally. This is his laughing condition which he carried a card to explain in the first film and they reference during the trial- the reason his mom calls him “Happy” because he has this condition that causes him to laugh when he’s emotionally elevated whether it be sadness, or anxiety or general discomfort

[@joshpartridge760]

What’s the worst way to end a story? Do like Umbrella academy season 4 and say it never happened What’s the worst way to end a story about an established character? Do what Joker 2 does and say it wasn’t even about that character… Has nothing to do with audience expectations just don’t call it Joker if it’s not about Joker

[@INRamos13]

Ah, but don't you get it? Todd Philips is so brilliant, that he got WB to pay him 200M to make a Joker movie that is not about Joker, a sequel that insults its predecessor and the people who liked it. He never cared about the audience or the money! He's so revolutionary! He played us all!

[@icebergthegamer]

It has everything to do with expectations though. Majority of audiences wanted the clown prince. I went in with 0 expectations for both films. I found myself fascinated with the portrayal of a mentally ill man who lived a tragic life. Seeing him give up is just heartbreaking. Phillips didn’t want to do a sequel. This movie is also a commentary of what you want, and a big eff you to the sequels that are constantly being spewed out. He did it his way, and I respect that.

[@musayibghani3986]

Didn't you think the film told a more powerful message of the fact that of a person who's sunk into their madness and rather than be empowered by it, showed how much worse off they are by the end of it.

[@superjackster0165]

Here's my guess on what a lot of us were expecting. The whole 3rd act of the first movie seemed to be Arthur transition from himself to fully being the Joker. Many people consider the scene where he kills Randall to be the moment where he goes from Arthur Fleck to being the Joker. So a lot of us were expecting Arthur to really take on the Joker persona for this movie

[@HeidiThackstone]

I find the reactions to this movie very odd. I've just been to see it with my family and we all thought it was excellent. My mum in particular gave it a 10/10.

[@MinosML]

I mean, you can chalk it up to subjective opinion, like most things. Me & my group of friends collectively agreed that we should've spent the ticket money literally anywhere else after leaving the theaters 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@RentFreeEZ]

Absolutely Heidi, all these overblown negative reviews are not going to age well. This movie is very solid!

[@Ruleof2Review]

Saw it last night. Loved it. Not as good as the first but man…what a picture. The people got this one wrong.

[@Shak2k11]

nah

[@Smeagol601]

I wonder if people will accept they were wrong about this one, i think it can happen fast because some of the harshest cirtics are people that love the first one so they are close.

[@INRamos13]

​@Smeagol601 there's nothing to accept. People didn't like it, you did, that's OK. There is no single objective opinion, and people who hate this movie are not "wrong".

[@MinosML]

​@@Smeagol601or maybe you'll accept that you were wrong for liking it, we'll never know 🗿

[@Tonyoung55]

This movie was average bro your breakdown is great but the movie execution is horrible. Their is no great build up in the courtroom the songs are dry they bring nothing to the movie special. The 3rd act is not good at all in my humble opinion

[@cinthiamunoz3195]

The second film underminds t all the character development from then first film. It has nothing new to say about Arthur, only to get a message that crazy joker=not good and its quite insulting. It has beautiful direction and good performances but people dislike It because it doesn't have a purpose to be

[@LesWalker2023]

Dang, Dan! You really do think about the movies you see! You think and process and really give them every opportunity to be better than many people do. Simply the act of seeing it twice, once again before this review, shows how you want to be sure about what you think. Amazing. Best reviewer out there, bar none! You are now my official go-to guy! No hype. No simple emotions "I liked it!" or "I hated it!". Rather, "Here is what I think is going on!". That takes an awareness, and a maturity many of us, myself included, often do not have. Please, for our sakes, keep it up!

[@shayanakhavan6002]

@ 19:50, I get the paralells. Sadly, the execution of the movie was just not great. It's okay, it's fine but it's just not great

[@alexanderwilhelm2073]

I heard an interview with Phillips on NPR the other day. The interviewer seemed to suggest that he used the IP to sell the first film to the mainstream when the story wasn't truly that relevant. His response wasn't ANGRY, but it sounded dismissive and defensive. It seemed to me like he was accurately called out. I enjoyed the first film for what it was, but I really felt like it "borrowed" way too much from Taxi Driver and King of Comedy, and repackaged it for marketing purposes. As a lifelong Batman/DC fan, I was a little upset at the ignorance of the IP, and though I haven't seen pt.2, it sounds like he or they have doubled down on that. I have to side with the fans that say, "Don't sell me a Joker movie that's not really about the Joker."

[@krlos2588]

I liked the approach for the first one on how the joker comes from society more than just a crazy guy. But this second movie is pretty obvious that Phillip doesn't care about that he just used the IP for his own art project.

[@anamarkov3952]

My problem with the first film (and the constant disagreement with friends) has been that it is not a “Joker” movie. It is a good movie about that story, but the director just dropped in “Wayne”, “Joker” and a couple more things in to sell it as a Batman movie so more people would see it. It bugs me to this day, and it is clear the director actually hates the Joker character.

[@musayibghani3986]

​@@anamarkov3952I don't think the director 'hates' the joker character. But he definitely used it to make his own story. But I felt like that watching the first one, it didn't feel like a joker from the DC universe. I'm happy he doubled down on that idea in the second one. It made for a very good drama that went in a really interesting decision, I'm happy they created something original rather than cater to a mainstream audience with no originality.

[@mikemauro3119]

A take that makes me like this more: it's like an origin story for a role that gets filled by different figures at different times, like the Dread Pirate Roberts, or Ghostface. On that level, it works, and is kinda cool. A 3rd movie about Harley or the new Joker, maybe an adaptation of THE THREE JOKERS, would make this a really unique comic book trilogy. "There's always a joker," as the song says.

[@ziggy8253]

It’s a no for me.

[@Amar_Indo007]

Dan is the undisputed king of reviews imo, there's no agenda or bias in it. He reviews the movie as the movie itself.

[@latroletteeeee]

yeak ok hmart

[@TheBrownleader]

I thought it was brilliant deconstruction. Really entertaining and spot on for the Joker imo because the character is more theatrical than anything. The turn Arthur has at the end is a twist but I think it clearly comes out of the best scene in the movie with Puddles on the stand. Joker is shook after that exchange. Then solidified after hearing his cellmate murdered. I just like the idea that his story is simply inspiration within that lore.

[@bethperforms6191]

Agree about Puddles/cellmate being the turning point!

[@StephenShepherdOfficial]

13:52 I personally think that Arthur realized his best defense really would come from the public seeing the Joker persona and THEN the Arthur persona. That was the only way to possibly play up the defense that his original lawyer wanted. He knew he wasn't prepared in matters of law or calling his own witnesses, so he did his best to play up the only angle he knew might work: what he was already told to strategize (just in his own way). Unfortunately for him, it didn't work, and he was still found guilty (not for reason of insanity) of at least 3 murders.

[@Yoda0VGs]

Remember in this movie when they said the trial was called "The City of New York vs Arthur Fleck" New York, not Gotham. Despite Wayne tower and tons of other references...

[@williamfeliciano8980]

I found that weird too but then I realized that Gotham is a city and it's the state that's prosecuting. So apparently Gotham is in New York now 🤷‍♂

[@tonylu1143]

I believe they said “The State of New York”

[@henrycepeda1844]

I noticed this too and made the same observation

[@laughingatnothing4642]

Goatham is supposed to be in New Jersy, so the movie said "State of New York vs Aurther Fleck"

[@laughingatnothing4642]

​@@williamfeliciano8980Gotham in comics has almost consistenly been in New Jersy

[@NienitaO]

I liked it. It kept me entertained. I was not expecting anything specific. After hearing that it was bad I still wanted to see it for myself. It seems like he was damned to be joker as some people still abuse him like he can't get out of it. And I agree with you on Lee singing to get him to continue being joker. Don't like that they killed him off at the end but he is locked up with crazy people.

[@cadenjones9666]

As someone who loves the character of the Joker, I was disappointed to go his 2nd second movie and not see him. The 1st film, to me, took a deep dive into Author Fleck. A disturbed, sad sad man driven to a breaking point and ending the movie as the starting point for the Joker. When turning off these expectations and seeing this movie as a psychological and artisty film, I agree with Dan that it becomes a little better but still suffers from not so good pacing and questionable story choices. Ultimately, this movie failed on two fronts, leaving no one satisfied, and we know comic book fans won't let their disapproval go unheard.

[@2011thetemp]

It's not a good movie but i didn't really like the last one either. It's a very well made movie but there's a lot plot issues & logic issues. Great performances from Gaga & Joaquin.

[@BRWednesday]

I think that 3rd act turn comes from Lee telling him to "get up there and show them who you really are". Only it happens backwards. As you mentioned, he has been trying to coax Joker out the entire time, but it's only once he's fully in dress and makeup, that he realizes it's just not there. I still don't think the execution of the movie was done well enough, but I do really like what was there. Such a bummer it missed the mark

[@MrSubstance]

Indeed! Arthur ended up in jail/Arkham in J1. He was up for 5 murders, 1 on live TV! He was always going to trial. He wasn't going to become some criminal mastermind. J2 had to be centred on the jail/courtroom/his psyche. Were people anticipating some huge prison break plot or a bunch of mass explosions and action?

[@andrefiremaster]

I have no major problem with the movie, just 2 times that, immediately after a sad Arthur scene, starts a Lee song. But otherwise, I thought it was a really solid movie. And I think it's funny you say "people expected more connection with the comic version of the Joker" when the first movie had almost nothing to do with the comics

[@PipBin]

I was expecting a film showing the creation of a super villan called the Joker, continuing on from the first. Otherwise the film would be called Arthur.

[@andymcgriffy]

I watched the first movie, but when I saw a description of this one, it sounded too strange and artsy (in a pretentious way) for me to want to see it. The way Dan describes the story makes it seem more interesting than the marketing did and I do feel that the movie seemed to have potential despite the negative reaction. Though ultimately, I still am not very interested as I began to not really like the first movie over time when I originally really liked it.

[@krlos2588]

Dan makes it sound much better than what it is. He really tries to makes sense of it but it is just a mess.

[@alexandermunoz7783]

Arthur = Todd Philips Lee = Fans Guards = Studio Excecs

[@toyboxphilosopher]

I was definitely in a similar boat, but I’m especially glad you explained what “folie à deux” means because I think that is fully embodied in the final scene.

[@danstaples4734]

Outstanding, as usual. However....You didn't think that the guards "killing" Arthur's friend because he was following him led to the change?

[@danstaples4734]

Expectations? I sort of expected an ascension to criminal mastermind or cult leader. A evolution of the Joker/Harley dynamic.

[@Paulovlyra]

I also interpreted that the way you did

[@charlesferron201]

Imagine if in the Batman 2, Robert Pattinson get killed by a random goon that becomes the real batman. Thats how this movie feel to me.

[@manuelalbertoromero9528]

Wouldn't it likely be he Gera killed o the job and a random bystander takes his place? Feels that more adds up.

[@Lyndonswing]

Bro.....very good example... it's the first time I out right disagree with Dan on his review of a movie.

[@winwinmilieudefensie7757]

Robert pattinson batman sucked and sucks

[@TheTalmidian]

They aren't the same kinds of films. Even the first one was never like The Batman or any traditional Batman interpretation.

[@Lyndonswing]

@@TheTalmidian so by that logic, is it safe to say that the traditional comic book movies are different from those modern movies, however they are still heavily criticized even if they’re not going by the fundamental premise that made those characters memorable. The first Joker was also depicted differently than the other films that featured him. But the bottom line is that it’s based on that character , correct? I remember watching Man of Steel and everyone critiqued that movie because it wasn’t the same as other movies that featured Superman. So while I do understand the premise of your statement, I do however understand what the other person’s statement was pointing at.

[@hotglassfilms]

Precisely the feeling I had. I enjoyed it even though it has problems . I kinda hope Todd can release a cut with other the deleted scenes

[@KerioFive]

Todd Phillips making 2 movies about someone that inspires Joker was part of the Real Joker's plan all along. Did you see him at the end?? That guy is THE REAL JOKER

[@ambds1975]

Running with your 'Harley egged him on' theory, it makes more sense, I like it. Once Arthur is gone and full-fledged JOKER appears, the dangerous narcissistic murderer, NOT just a sad man, Harley thinks; 'Oh, THIS guy's got the stuff,' and she bites off way WAY more than she can chew when she tries to get reflected glory off him.

[@louislibitz]

This film is absolutely BRILLIANT and a character study with so many levels. As I am not particularly a fan of musicals, the music is used perfectly as a device to portray Arthur’s emotions that he cannot express - as we know from the first film Arthur has music in him and an interesting device that, to me, is seamless throughout the story. There is no question this is an “Art House” film. Everything from the cinematography, performances, art design, score etc. are top notch. Shame some only seeing this at the surface level & turned off by the musical numbers. This is not THAT Joker or THE Joker, just A JOKER. “Knock, Knock? Who’s there? Arthur Fleck? Arthur Fleck who?”

[@bethperforms6191]

Agree!!

[@AustinBeeman]

That seems like a Quantum of Solace to Joker’s Casino Royale.

[@ziggyphillips1460]

I saw it opening night and I loved it, but all 6 of the other people in the movie theater with me at the late show walked out before it was over. I think this will be one of those movies that people will think about differently in the future, like, "Did we really need to hate this so much?" I re-watched the first movie after seeing the second one and liked it even more.