Joker - How to Make Evil Likable | Film Perfection

[@Filmento]

And no... what Todd Phillips "says" in interviews outside of the movie isn't something I consider to be part of the movie. That's not how movies work.

[@avortigaunt3922]

Good

[@Kyroro97]

To me it makes sense that he just didn't do it because he committed atrocities because he felt a feeling of retaliation on who did him wrong, but recognized those that never did him harm like the short guy that he let go even after he witnessed him killing his ex-colleague.

[@SOLIDSNAKES35]

Filmento it’s been confirmed in multiple places and from the release of the script that he didn’t kill his neighbor.

[@have_a_good_day420]

Filmento Filmento He didn’t kill his neighbor, at least, there’s no reason to think so. Example: At the end of the film, when he does the final walk down the hall, his shoes are bloody. That’s a hint that he either killed the therapist lady, or at least left her bloodied. There was no hint at all that he killed his neighbor. There is no reason to think so other than your own speculation. But your speculation is not based on any actual clues. So it would be better for you to leave that part out of your analysis because it’s not backed by anything. Usually you’re good at making points that are backed by something substantial.

[@Idonthaveanynickname]

Yes, what director says in interviews is not part of the movie. But "Joker kills neighbor" also not part of the movie. So that part of your analysis just don't seems right. Him killing her does not made audience stop liking Arthur cuz we never seen him killing her. I guess it was more about how in this moment Joker craziness stopped being sad and become creepy.

[@kellyevenorth]

He didn’t start a movement through his actions. He reacted to people attacking him on the subway. The MEDIA started the movement by misreporting what happened and why. He then embraced the label the media gave him.

[@sillykatja8457]

Thank you, I was thinking the same thing. Arthur never stated any political opinion, nor did he tell enyone else to do anything agains anyone else (as in, he never told the poor people to act out violently against the 1%ers). It was, as you said, the media that took one action, and twisted it to promote their own narrative. This is also why I would argue that Filmento is wrong when he states that Arthur/Joker is resposible for the death of the Waynes (and the riot over all). Arthur never said anything in regards to how he wanted people to act. He never tried to inspire or start up any riot, or social movements, or anythibg of the sort. Arthur only wanted his own, personal, revenge on the bullies on the train, and on Murry, and since he was give the means to enact his revenge, (having a gun on his person, and being invited to the show), he whent thru with them. It was not his fault that others decided to put their own interpetation/menaing on his actions. Others were inspired by what he did, but he never ment to inspire anyone to copy him/his actions. To say that Arthur is responsible for the murder of the Waynes, would inply that Arthur then should have the responsebility of the actions that someone else did on their own volition. The only one that should be held acountable for the murder of the Wayns, is the one guy that pulled the trigger on them, for he was the one that made the decission, and who commited tha act. No one, especially not Arthur, told the guy to do it. Arthur did something that others were inspired by, but he never did anything to inspire others. The difference is huge, and should never be considered interchangeable.

[@catwearingshades]

yep, “I don’t believe in any of that, I don’t believe in anything” “Do I look like the kind of clown that can start a movement?” It just shows that Joker is pure nihilism. Nothing good ever comes out of that. I think someone should make a video about that tbh

[@glif1360]

Am I the only one, who saw a parallels between Arthur-Murray and Folk-Wane relations?

[@arohk4415]

Ye, it's all fake news.

[@williansnobre]

He still felt some pride from being the catalyst for the movement

[@katewalker1670]

i really liked the metaphor of the stairs : each day he went up trying to be sane but in the end he finally accepted who he was, went insane and came dancing down

[@mr.skellix7197]

Well said.

[@John-lu2ql]

i agree but i look at it a little more symbolically. the stairs represent life in the sense of ease. it’s harder to go up the stairs. it’s harder to suppress your emotions so that you can still try to make yourself better. it’s harder to be nice than it is to be evil. it’s easier to go down those stairs and to spiral into madness, except to him and apparently to most of us watching, it’s justified

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@John-lu2ql well said. fantastic movie.

[@rachmatzulfiqar]

It's like "going to hell, with style"

[@ebaugh7320]

Hmm, I didn't notice that before. Thanks for pointin it out

[@stefan6347]

"He kills seven people, which is a lot for a hero" * laughs in Avengers *

[@kkhagerty6315]

Stephan Stefanus *laughs in man of steel*

[@fritz6462]

Laughs in Quentin Tarantino

[@DomeLP09]

Laughs in Star wars

[@mariosnz2884]

**Laughs in every action movie that has ever existed**

[@LateNightPerson]

*laughs in Postal*

[@BSJINTHEHOUSE420]

Joker is evil?! I didn’t know he was it wasn’t tattooed on his forehead or anything.

[@Ento2012]

It is like those confusing Indiana Jones movies where the nazis have eagles on theire flags but they still are nazis.

[@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat]

Major flaw of the filmmakers. How can an audience deliniate? Lol

[@onlyonewhyphy]

Yeah, they should have wrote *_Nazi_* on his head

[@sphakamisozondi]

Bro I was sooo lost as well. Thanks to filmento for telling us the Joker is a bad guy. I was waiting for "Damaged Tatoo" across the forehead, grill teeth and a hip hop aura 😂😂😂😂😂.

[@NebMunb]

BROKEN

[@yashkasardekar5411]

" *Every villain is a hero in his own story* " Joker is the best example of this sentence.

[@faust6837]

coincidentally it was batman from Injustice 2 who said that (I think?)

[@omeloithemarshmallow7663]

Junior Grimes k

[@Kalergi_Plan_Accelerationist]

I'M A GOD DAMN HERO!

[@leroyvermilion7708]

@@Juniorgrimes BRO WHAT?... DM ME ....@LEROY_1DON

[@598superchris]

I can totally relate to that

[@mtlhe4d480]

The HUMANIZED someone we called a “villain” for so long. And I love it.

[@shitisreal4046]

Lamar Scrotum Darkwater ? 1917 ? Parasite ? Apollo 11 ? You mean the only one breaking box office

[@mr.dr0bot731]

Humanized for mass shooters and Nazis.

[@wamengxiong0409]

@@mr.dr0bot731 put this into a school environment and we get our school shootings. Empathy is nice and all, but we all still know the action of murder is not morally correct

[@wamengxiong0409]

@@mr.dr0bot731 what we SHOULD take from seeing this movie is: "How can WE prevent THIS from ever occurring?"

[@mtlhe4d480]

What?

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

Heath Ledger Joker: the mad dog who bites without provocation. Joaquin Phoenix Joker: the kicked dog who finally bites back.

[@hugogarza1820]

Well that’s not exactly true, Heath Ledgers joker is a lot like Arthur, he explains in the movie how society is broken and morality is nothing but a joke that people refuse to accept, and he creates chaos to force people to accept it

[@TuanTran-vp8gf]

Look up the ex-military theory on The Dark Knight's Joker. Although only a theory, it does paint Ledger's character as more of a victim than a villian. A soldier who loses his closes friends and left permanently disfigured because he follow ORDER. A man who returns home to a crumbling city and a man dressed as a bat. A person that throughout the movie actually succeeds in fixing the city, although through CHAOS. Nolan rarely sets the dinner table for his guest. Rather he hands them a shotgun and tells them to hunt for it.

[@straightedge7304]

TH3 F4LC0N Jared Leto joker: the dog nobody wants

[@DVCVMVS]

Two very different ideologies taken by each character. Ledger's Joker puts himself at risk for the ambition of showing that all of humanity is sick and twisted. If I recall, he personally only kills 2-3 people, his goal is to erode the delusion that "white knights" and morality/loyalty/honor exist. Arthur's Joker is only really concerned with those things directly impacting him personally,. He never considers the aftermath of his decisions until, arguably, the end of the film...albeit that you could argue he doesn't truly understand it then, either.

[@adonas3903]

ledger = Chichuahua

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

The "laughing condition" is a real medical condition: pseudo-bulbar affect. It's less laughing in the conventional sense, more *extremely painful muscle spasms* in response to anxiety.

[@scarlettdamante4945]

I'm so glad you added that it's triggered by anxiety. It was so obvious in the film its driving me crazy how many reviews say the laughing is "completely random"

[@MorganScorpion]

Similar to Tourettes?

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

@@MorganScorpion I wouldn't be surprised

[@wozamigamez592]

Wait so, his anxiety was the one controlling his Laughter. Now That is Mental.

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

@@wozamigamez592 laughter is expression of relief, it's _always_ a response to anxiety - it's literally triggered by endorphins, the same chemicals that cause feelings of relief, the ones opium simulates. People laugh because they're nervous, surprised, embarrassed, relieved something bad didn't happen to them, or relieved something bad has ended.

[@SiddharthShenoy]

Arthur really blew Murray's mind with that joke.

[@747simmer4]

booo

[@elsoldaditodelpomo3662]

He not only blew his mind but also his brain away :D

[@dhananjayvasudeva7628]

@@elsoldaditodelpomo3662 mind=brain

[@codywright7932]

Gonna put some sand in your eye

[@Jonnyanomaly1986]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahsaaaaaa

[@soruvfrancis6210]

To be fair, if Arthur didn’t kill the last guy on that subway he would still have gotten a life sentence, even though he killed the other two in self defense. These guys were rich and Arthur... well you saw his apartment. There is no way in hell he would have been able to afford a good enough lawyer.

[@DVCVMVS]

Even with a good attorney, the first would have been justifiable homicide, then second manslaugther (given the situation had deescalated after the first shot), and murder for the 3rd (if witnessed) as he continued to attempt to fire after the individual was dead. You could make the argument that there's no way he gets and impartial, or truly peer, jury...but a good defense attorney would work to stack the jury selection with lower income individuals. Any lawyer, good or bad, would have argued his mental faculty, but he isn't so mentally deranged that he doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. Even if a jury could get around all of that, he's still looking at life in an asylum or 5-10 years for justifiable homicide. Would this be different if he were rich? Uh, Batman is considered a dangerous vigilantly by near every judicial official aside from Gordon. He just has the resources/training to evade capture.

[@Jessie_Helms]

Soruv Francis if he’d only killed the first guy then the woman could have been his witness of self defense. But if I remember right she ran away once the second guy got shot

[@Jessie_Helms]

Jon Hagel it depends on the state too. In any state with a castle law, or just about any self-defense laws, the first kill wasn’t illegal at all, as it was cut and dry self defense. The second would be questionable but probably not ‘murder’ (I forget the term for when it’s an intentional kill but isn’t as severe). And I think regardless the third would always be considered a cut and dry murder as he chased him down and emptied his gun into him.

[@jazz-cat00]

@@Jessie_Helms the woman wasn't in the room when it happened, she moved over to the next car once joker started laughing didn't she?

[@Jessie_Helms]

Jazzcat00 I thought it was once the first guy got shot. Could be wrong though.

[@marcolollio6445]

He didnt kill the neighbor, he was just sad when he realized it was all fake

[@frealms]

He was trying to seek comfort in his fake relationship. The fantasy broke down when she reminded him of the child, which probably didn't sit well with what he learned happened in his own childhood. I don't think he did either, would not fit his mentality so far. The sirens and police activity could be just usual Gotham or a neighbor who called and she wisely decided not to make anything out of it (hardly something would come out of it and given where she lives, I'm sure she knows that could probably just trigger him into actually doing something).

[@АнуЖин-п8ц]

@@frealms its gotham. police siren is always sounding. there is literally nothing that says he killed her , but essayist just assumes she killed her and explained why it is weird thing??? like wtf

[@wadetisthammer3612]

@@АнуЖин-п8ц I can kind of see it with the ominous fingers to the head and the police lights, but yeah. The case for it is really weak.

[@laclika13chico]

This guy didn’t understand the movie or just didn’t care just so he can make this video lol

[@境零度]

This

[@thecountbrothers2287]

When I saw the movie, I've never thought for a minute that he killed Domino.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

The director said he didn't

[@JohnDoe-zw8vx]

Same. Arthur's reaction to me was him coming to terms with the reality that his relationship was a delusion. The flashing lights were showing the crime in the area due to rising tensions.

[@thecountbrothers2287]

@@JohnDoe-zw8vx Yeah, a very nice ending to the second act of the movie, showing him at his worst

[@JustaGuy_Gaming]

It could go either way and the evidence is flimsy at best. Given the neighborhood he lived in flashing cop lights is a weak argument. That said even if he just thought about killing her it would likely cause the same break down. She was his pretend romance/friend and having his delusions shattered hurt him. Worse his likely first reaction after riding the high of killing his bullies was probably to kill her. Even if he didn't actually do it, the mere fact he thought about it would hurt him just as bad. This was imo the moment he realized he was going mad. But because he's a villain I think he embraced the madness instead of fighting it.

[@arizz620]

@@Juniorgrimes touch grass

[@Deathstrider]

"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"

[@CrèmeTropBrûlée]

We are all thinking “damn true” to ur comment and still we keep ignoring people more unhappy and more unlucky than us

[@serafinschaller1688]

Damn, that's one hell of a quote! What's it from?

[@xxxmetalslugga5349]

@@serafinschaller1688 black panther is where its from

[@pinheadlarry1977]

@@serafinschaller1688 it's an African proverb

[@ashtonstired]

found the guy who copy and pasted what another guy copy and pasted in another joker video

[@neoxenoz3262]

Long story short: The bullied quiet kid at the back of the class is more likable when you see his whole picture

[@yashkaliapiano]

There's depth to that bro!

[@OrlandoMGarcia]

Well is a person you know, just because is not same as you doesnt mean is to treat him like a an animal or object, if you do eventually will become it. That the whole picture of it, you cant trow people in society and expect survival when they dont see more that themselves as people

[@starcrafter13terran]

And sometimes the bully is a really sad person who never got attention.

[@kl16863]

Or u can be nice so u don’t get shot

[@uneterostardust8233]

@@starcrafter13terran Or a power hungry asshole. Yes some bullies do bad things 'becs sednes', but the majority are just assholes who willingly do it for the sake of power, arrogance, etc...

[@ElSuperRico]

What I understood was Sophie was the only person in his life who truly mattered to him, who treated him like an actual person and gave him happiness. Like a crutch in his life. The realization that it was all in his head meant he had nothing left. Nothing to tether him down to to sanity, to stop him from falling off the deep end

[@faust6837]

in his desperation for anything that's good in his shitty life, she became the "only good thing" in Arthur's life, and then the illusion shattered, and that came from a one time interaction in an elevator

[@Metado42069]

he didnt kill sophie

[@kyunikoi]

@@Metado42069 Correct, and even the director/writer stated as much. I never even considered that he might've until this video so idk why this channel seems convinced that he did.

[@Metado42069]

@@kyunikoi yea

[@jaideepshekhar4621]

@@kyunikoi Didn't he exactly tell you why he killed her in this video?

[@nick6253]

I think everyone is on Arthur's side because they're conscious that they, the viewer, could've gone down the same path if they had the same life Arthur had.

[@sosea_exe]

Counter point, people have empathy, which is why we side with a guy who has mental problems and is being bullied because of it. If you saw yourself going down the same path, you may need therapy.

[@nick6253]

@@sosea_exe yeah that's a good point. I'm not necessarily saying people are going down the same path, all I'm saying is, it's scary to think what would happen if we had those same circumstances in our lives. It'd break a LOT of people.

[@calleocho2107]

Nick yeah I think both of you guys are right tbh. People are usually empathic and some people have really thought about how dark and dangerous they will become if given a harsh path. The WWII nazis committing genocide is a good example of what you were trying to say.

[@ImmaLittlePip]

@@sosea_exe People have empathy Woke Twitter doesn't (see the whole new guy meme situation)

[@imrockhardrnbutanyways493]

@@sosea_exe if you had the same life as joker it's not too far off to say you'd do the same, joker was contemplating suicide, that was his first plan, which would've been many others plan, but he chose revenge instead of suicide, which is honestly a better option in my opinion

[@benjaminthibieroz4155]

I see 2 types of vilains: - Those who grow up thinking they have the right to hurt people - Those who came to believe hurting back is the only thing right

[@benjaminthibieroz4155]

@yt jt I totally agree

[@benjaminthibieroz4155]

@Blaster Master Yes, maybe it is. Who knows. Some tries to preserve the order even when it dies And some exists to put the whole order at a test, to ultimately improve it. History then judge. But in the present, no matter the character, there's only trying, fighting, going forward. Which completely blurs the distinction.

[@willverschneider1102]

A third type could be those who get punished for doing the right thing, therefore, believing that good is wrong and evil is right.

[@benkeane365]

@Blaster Master shut up you edge lord jokers a fucking baghead

[@serafinschaller1688]

@@benkeane365 I mean... I technically agree, but listen to yourself! That's one edgy comment if I've ever seen one

[@SiddharthShenoy]

Props to my man for not talking about society even once in a Joker video.

[@punitshukla5550]

Master Skywalker what are you doing here?

[@villerintanthillith1762]

@@punitshukla5550 looking for younglings

[@melinatedthinka8210]

What’s wrong with talking about society. People in Gotham City are quiet strange.

[@michaelnorman4]

We truly do live in a society

[@2001man7]

@@michaelnorman4 yes we do Bruce

[@divyenjoshi1168]

How to make a film contain one of the greatest performances of our time: Cast Joaquin Phoenix as lead.

[@admiralamel9563]

joaquin only gonna casting to your movie if the he sure the movie will turn out good so yeah, no.

[@samthemannospam4010]

Unless you also have John Travolta like Ladder 49

[@ewan7746]

Can you cast a sword out of molten joaqin phoenix?

[@kingDowahs]

Except for Napoleon

[@divyenjoshi1168]

@@kingDowahs Haha well I haven't seen it, but I'm sure he was far from bad and it was the film as a whole that lacked quality.

[@dmua9551]

>Not even a single second into the video "SOCIETY" now this is someone who gets Joker

[@bearship9]

We do indeed live

[@felipesilva3732]

Oh boy, isnt it

[@princeblasian3735]

Or its just a meme that people refer Joker as the Society movie

[@friedlemons5201]

"Coming soon to a dank river valley near you."

[@conspicuous.8163]

Bernardo Mazonave In

[@sir.squishy6830]

The saddest part is when he says “I’LL TELL YOU WHAT YOU GET!” he sounds like he’s about to cry

[@747simmer4]

Probably because he’s so angry, i too do the same when i get angry, super frustrated etc

[@747simmer4]

@@Juniorgrimes immediately jus stfu

[@Juniorgrimes]

@@747simmer4 *immediately NO* 😎

[@rhyandavies816]

@@Juniorgrimes you are a sad lonely fuck.

[@danhendricks5896]

That's just really good acting

[@LowKeyJaded]

Joker never acted. Only reacted. He didn’t cause chaos. He’s a product of chaos. All the things that happened around him made him who he was.

[@BygoneT]

A reaction is an action, good lord

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@BygoneT yeah but the point that he was saying is that he didn't do all these villainous things at first because he took first action.

[@BygoneT]

@@Gadget-Walkmen That's irrelevant. I'm one of those people who rejects the validity of the idea of instigation. You're fully in control of what you're doing every step of the way, from the first insult to the knife stab. There are a number of people who receive terrible treatment every day, but they do not kill. Perhaps it would be better if they did, at least the torturer can't do it to anyone else. But, whatever happens, you are in control and fully responsible, there is no excuse like "We live in a society where..." to justify a kill or torture, or rape, or whatever. And I don't take this stance just because, the alternative is ridiculous. If you're not in control at the very least most of the time (Picking your words, how to write the next message, eating, where to punch who, etc.), then when are you? Does control evaporate? Do even have it? Is everyone an overly complicated android?

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@BygoneT I completely agree with you that everyone at the end of the day is responsible for their own actions but I was just trying to clear up on what the first comment was trying to say. Yeah I your completely at the end of the day responsible for your actions but villains for the most part, if they have a tragic story of becoming a villain, just has to have understandable reasons for why they turned bad to begin with to the point where if they audience were in their shoes they would be like, " yeah I would probably go evil in that situation too if I was him too."

[@BygoneT]

@Argumentative Piece of shit It depends on the mentally ill. Surely, someone with mild attention disorders has more control than someone with schizophrenia. Less than someone WITHOUT attention disorders, but more than someone who's a slave to their brainstorming. Yeah, I agree. It's not good to torment people just because they're different, while I wouldn't torment someone for self righteousness, ego stroking or simple catharsis, I'd say it depends on how they're different. For example i can't accept a pedophile living near my house when I know there are at least 5 children (Not mine) in his vicinity. I'm also one of those who prefers not to assign some sort of objective message to movies unless explicitly stated. You could just as well argue that in a Nietzsche-esque tone, showing how weakness is the root of all evil. He was not able to detach himself from the treatment he received, he lacked personal strength or didn't care enough to not be weak and give in to his destructive impulses, hence, the movie is showing weakness is the root of all evil. Weak people who turn to doing evil don't need to be strong to hurt, because everyone is equally fragile (You could literally die from being pushed to the ground too hard, since I was a kid I thought it was bullshit). Thus, turning this movie into a "Here's am example of what happens if..." I don't know if you get what I mean. It's a good discussion to have, but it's just not as simple as we did bad, they did bad because we were bad to them, and so on. Why are they marginalised in the first place? Is it because their lack of social skills disconnected them from the rest? Why so? Is it from all the way back in childhood? And can you even fix that if it's the cause? The issue I found all too often is that in trying to "Protect yourself", you denigrate others. It's not a good strategy. For example, deaf people, and more rarely blind people, usually reject the ability to start using their missing senses because all their life they distances themselves from the very idea of hearing or seeing. That's not something that comes about spontaneously. It's the result of others in their lives not wanting to give the blind/deaf false hopes, and possibly experience deep delusion and grief. It's a tough issue. Sure as hell, these people are missing out on big things. *And they're not even able to consider another side of the argument.* That's how strong a life of " Wrong" influence can be. EDIT: Take a shot every time you read someone

[@ooodatsgottahurt1625]

You missed a death. At the end he walks out of the office he's being interviewed in some sort of mental ward, he's treading blood down the corridor.

[@pepomega]

The thing is that , that happens at the very end of the movie, when its implied that he already become the joker.

[@ooodatsgottahurt1625]

@@pepomega You could also say that now he's killed people he has all the meds and psychiatrists he could possibly want but when he needed them at the start of the film they didn't really care and they were cutting the program.

[@magic75450]

As filmento said, it works for two reasons: 1) We didn't see him actually killing her. 2) She treated him badly. She didn't really care about him. Sure, she wasn't a bully, but she didn't help him in any way. She didn't really listen to him.

[@pepomega]

@@magic75450 but he refers to the last therapyst

[@UnderscoreJohs]

That is part of the epilogue and in the video he stated he would be excluding the epilogue

[@Gloromo]

Honestly, the Scene where he read the file about his mother and cried while laughing got me so hard..

[@rebelpilot7015]

You do you...

[@redmonkey477]

This comment needs better wording I think...

[@prowthegamer]

I have such a dirty mind...

[@TheGamingKamikaze]

@@redmonkey477 lol when I read it I thought it in a normal mind, but when you said it I fucking laughed.

[@tonywilliamson-bruscaglia3070]

Man, I know they say if you can think of it there's porn of it, but I haven't been able to find any porn for this. Well done.

[@webkilla]

13:00 - I did not in any way get the impression that he killed his neighbor. He had a delusion of a relationship, but didn't kill her once that bubble burst

[@SirHirnschaden]

exactly his breakdown was his realisation of insanity about the only sane thing he had.

[@redmonkey477]

I'm about 8 months late but this video is the first time I've ever heard of Arthur killing his neighbor. I always viewed his breakdown as realising it was all a hallucination, and how the only person who cared about him was a stranger to him in reality.

[@SirHirnschaden]

@@redmonkey477 it is. Even the crew pointed that out. Only our big boy here tell something differnt. With no proof. There is no clue for that. Bcs every kill joker did was at least hinted in some way.

[@Corn_Pone_Flicks]

@@redmonkey477 Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I can see how some could infer that. Not every film event is clear-cut. Is Deckard a Replicant? Is Cobb still dreaming? However, I didn't see enough here to set up that kind of ambiguity.

[@STARPIG]

Yea, the director himself said that, no he didn't kill the neighbour.

[@samhawkins6543]

Nice dark Knight reference "I'm just a dog chasing cars" 6:43

[@bangeranginretroman3064]

Came here to say this

[@jumpiestudios5265]

I just watched the movie for rhe first time and I really don't see him having killed his neighbor. To me this reads more like him coming into her apartment for comfort but then by the way she addresses him realizing he only imagined his relationship with her and then running back to his appartment to break down over this realization. We never even see anything he might've used as a weapon, we don't see any blood on him or anything. There's nothing really actively suggesting he did anything to her, so it's really just purely the viewer interpreting what admittably is very vague.

[@magic8269]

ye

[@d-fens5866]

Yeah this was my interpretation as well. I do t think he killed her. I just think realizing she didn’t see him the way he saw her was the last straw and he decided to spiral. But since she didn’t directly screw him over I doubt highly he would’ve killed her considering all his victims maliciously tried to hurt him or embarrass him.

[@darkthunder2776]

@@d-fens5866 I think he was just mentally gone at that point.

[@majed8192]

This is exactly what I thought, Joker will evidently down the line become the cold blooded killer that we know, but during the course of this movie he acts under the banner of being the righteous one, punishing the "awful" ones, giving them "what they deserve", so under what assumption people have decided he killed the neighbor?

[@nuwiwbobo]

He didn't, I'm pretty sure the producers confirmed it

[@aligmal5031]

in the deleted scenes he didn't kill sophia there was a scene for her that she react to what he did on tv

[@L3viat4an]

Maybe it was deleted because they saw that it would be a better movie without saying if she died or not

[@cloroxbutitsbleach2263]

They may have deleted it in order to kill her off.

[@randomfools808]

That's interesting. I never thought he killed her either but if he didn't, she would have called the police right after that encounter and the detectives were already suspicious about him.

[@killer2403]

@@randomfools808 Well, we hear police sirens after he leaves her apartment.

[@vshazam]

@@L3viat4an they deleted it because they wanted to keep the film in Joker's perspective. He wasn't there to see her watching him on TV so it was taken out.

[@Norman_Fleming]

Stating he was a 'bad guy', nooo, he became a bad guy.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

He's still not a bad guy.

[@achilleasgeorgiou7853]

@@TheStraightestWhitest He murdered like.. 6 people? Yes he did become a bad guy

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

@@achilleasgeorgiou7853 Murder is only murder because a group of pencil necks said it was. Every single one of those deaths made the world a better place.

[@achilleasgeorgiou7853]

@@TheStraightestWhitest First of all, there is a reason people cannot be judge jury and executioner in real life. And no, someone getting you fired from your job does not deserve death. Someone mocking you on a tv show does not deserve death.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

@@achilleasgeorgiou7853 Well I disagree. It's not about what they did, it's about why they did it. You're also seriously undermining what they did, no doubt to reinforce your argument. Also, you say there's a reason, but you don't say what that reason is. Go on, tell me. I think the only one who should ever be allowed to play judge jury and executioner is the one that was wronged. The law doesn't work. It doesn't keep people from being raped, robbed or murdered, yet it keeps the rapist, robbers and murderers safe afterwards.

[@paytonyoder1260]

He defended himself on the subway until it came to the third guy. That’s when it was no longer about defending himself.

[@mrdonut3382]

Instead of killing himself He finished what he started.

[@narutospersona426]

The first two were arguably self-defense but the third one was second degree murder

[@ultimoyt0]

"Destroy your enemies completely, or they will recover and seek revenge" - 48 laws of power

[@coltranebartlett590]

I agree that it was unlawful but it was hella deserved.

[@dracomet2097]

He was defending himself against having a live witness reporting the crime and throwing him in jail.

[@GeahkBurchill]

He didn’t kill Sofie. He returned to his apartment and we hear sirens and see lights-probably just city ambiance, not because he killed her. Here’s why: The next time we see Arthur he’s by his mother’s side in the hospital where he smothers her. He returns to his apartment after that and sleeps the night. Best case scenario: Sofie called the cops. Arthur left to go to the hospital before they arrived. They talk to Sofie and then knock on his door with no answer. The situation is not urgent enough (because no one died) to bash down his door or follow up at the hospital. Worst case scenario: he killed Sofie and her screams were so blood curdling that normally apathetic fellow tenants called the cops. Arthur managed to leave for the hospital before they find her body. If the second case is true, why didn’t they batter down his door? Why not immediately attempt to apprehend him at the hospital? How does he arrive back home after smothering Penny and not discover a crime scene and a horde of cops in his apartment? How is he able to spend the night preparing for the Murray show? Most likely, the sirens are ambiance. Second most likely, Sofie called the police.

[@dieu5041]

I don't know if he killed her but to me it seems weird how we are all trying to justify why he wouldn't. When evidence actually points to him doing it, the city of Gotham seems to be rampant with crime, so i assumed before batman came around; criminals could get away with murder willy-nilly. Hence why the poor were resentful towards the rich. Also I could see why he might have killed her. He is crazy, dude will kill you if you do him dirty. I can definitely see her being a bit creeped out and rejecting him after he came to her apartment and him overreacting and killing her. His first regretful kill, as it's the only one where he is seen pain-laughing it away. I think it's good to understand that Arthur is mentally ill, and his mind does not operate like that of a regular person. Especially during the course of the movie, he gains more confidence in himself and fully embraces his mental illness, subconsciously that is. Thats why he does that weird dance thing for the first in view of other people, right before coming out on the show. Dude is batshit insane,. he deffo could of killed her.

[@pedrofdiniz]

Geahk Burchill maybe the neighbors didnt knows that he is the criminal, the police came and saw the body, nothing else

[@daredcell9563]

If they saw a body the apartment would have cops and detectives working on it, making sure other tenants don’t view the scene So there is no way he killed her unless nobody legit gave a shit about it even the cops.

[@dieu5041]

I agree, but we are trying to rationlise this guys actions a lot. but truth is he is insane. Dude killed him dying mother... regardless the reasons, she was dying anyway and defenceless.

[@Jessie_Helms]

Geahk Burchill while I agree with your logic, I definitely got the implication from the movie that he killed her and it was cops/an ambulance. But hey, every movie will have some hiccups.

[@defenstrator4660]

I can't say his killing of the first two men was an act of evil. That was justified self defense against people who were trying to kick him to death. Stalking out from the train car to shoot the third on the back was where he crossed the line form honest defense to genuine revenge. And that act of revenge and the self empowerment that came from it is the start of his slide. Part of what makes the movie dark and sympathetic is that you are watching a man finally take control of his life but doing all the wrong things and learning all the wrong lessons, none of which seem obvious to him due to his illness and the corrupt society he exists in. I also don't think he killed his neighbor. Not only is it not shown the way the other killings are, his other killings all came with a scene of catharsis. After killing the bullies and his mother the following scene was one of sunlight, unusual with the dark grey that dominates the rest of the time. The killing of Murray is followed by the brightly lit city. The scene after his neighbor is him suffering in the dark as he usually does.

[@dresean3725]

I don't necessarily agree with the self defense part. One, he's using a gun without a permit which is extremely illegal, even if no one died. Two, even if the gun was legal carry, he would have been tried in court for shooting the first guy directly in the face (maybe could have escaped it cuz a lot was going on and aiming in that circumstance would be hard). However, the 2nd guy he shoots twice in the stomach, which is far more force than necessary. Once in the stomach might have got him off (If legal carry and proved to be self defense), but two shots is huge. His life wasn't in danger, so I personally don't consider those two justified. If they pulled a gun in him or something then shiiiit all bets are off. The rest of what you said I agree with ^^

[@mikerodrigues9822]

Your understanding of self-defense and law is minimal. Let me break it up for you: 1 - Laws between states are not the same. In some states you don't even need a permit, just a register. And it is not "extremely illegal" if you aren't caught doing other crimes like robbery. 2 - I know games make us feel like we are at war, but have you been at least in a real life and death situation? Even a fight with a friend for training martial arts? Because even there with a person we know don't want to kill us we can't hit exactly where we want to hit. Shoot precisely while under extreme stress is something even soldiers can't do(probably special force soldiers can or at least should in my view, but im civilian), so you can't just "don't shoot to kill" like "shoot on the leg" as some idiots want to say. 3 - No law anywhere in the world says how many shots you can give in self-defense. There is multiple videos of cops shooting people and they keep going after them, especially of suicide-by-cop videos. Cops are trained to shoot at the center of mass, by the way, which coincides with the stomach. 2 shots while they aren't lay on the ground? Its fine. The third, however, is murderer. Any half-decense lawyer could make a good case he was under stress and an emotional case about the past aggression and reduce his time on jail.

[@General_Weebus]

@@dresean3725 you're a fool. He was being assaulted by multiple attackers. Even if they weren't intending to kill, maim, or seriously injure him (and unless you got some psychic voodoo going on you don't know and therefore have every right to fear for your life and therefore have every right to use lethal force) one errant kick to the wrong place could do irrevocable damage or kill, so again he had every right to use lethal force to defend himself.

[@dresean3725]

General Weebus Damn you guys need to chill. What I said wasn't absolute and I agree with Mike. Especially the part about states being different. However with you, there's a few problems I have with your logic (at least by California standards). Getting hit almost anywhere has the ability to cause irrevocable damage. A simple punch to the jaw can kill. There's a thing called "excessive force". If a guy in a bar starts a fist fight with me cuz he thinks I'm flirting with his girlfriend, it is not my legal right to pull out a gun and shoot him in the face. When I go to court for that, I am pretty much guaranteed to go to prison (maybe unless the guy had a gun in his pocket and there was evidence that he planned to use it on me). Now, I'm not a law guy and my position can be swayed. I will not except being called "a fool" by some random person simply cuz I may be ignorant on a subject I am not hugely educated in

[@mikerodrigues9822]

@@dresean3725"Excessive force" is a term very open to imagination, but, again, you got it wrong. Understandable because even some lawyers and judges get it wrong and innocent people get fucked because of it. The defender is not required to defend itself on "even" terms by any means. "Excessive force" means more force than necessary. Period. In your example, if the defender pull a gun and the assault dont stop, he has every right to shoot until it stops. However if the attacker stops when see the gun and its shot anyway, it is considered excessive force, breaks the exception of self-defense, and murder/manslaughter can be applied. California has a very bad history of judging self-defense, so good luck if you need. In any case, I would prefer to trust a judge and a lawyer than someone that is trying to knock me out.

[@gonzalezag]

Who else is happy joker didn’t kill the midget

[@nykv9101]

He probably did, Gary would’ve reported it to the police but they never came, so he probably killed Gary but imagined he didn’t

[@GellertTV]

@@nykv9101 Ohh good point

[@gonzalezag]

The reason I think he survived was that throughout the movie Arthur only kills people who have hurt him in any way. And the midget hasn’t done anything to him (sorry I’m calling him midget I just don’t know his name)

[@nykv9101]

Sam - Good point but Murray is a celebrity they would’ve at least sent a message to the security of the building, not only that but there are people in the audience that are in risk of danger. Another reason is that Arthur was already a suspect (the 2 detectives in the movie questioning him) so the police probably would’ve gotten Arthur so Gary probably would’ve reported it to the police.

[@GellertTV]

@@gonzalezag Gary lol

[@kernel7428]

"they couldn't carry a tune to save their lives"

[@napoleoncorneliusscipio5141]

@Lucius Fawkes but I know that won't let me down Cause this fine old world, it keeps spinning around

[@horstlechner6465]

What does it mean?

[@bongwaterbaptist]

Napoleon Cornelius Scipio one of the guys in the subway was singing a tune.

[@i.pezzotti853]

@@napoleoncorneliusscipio5141 I said That’s Life (That’s Liiiiiiife)

[@Arrgus]

When add revenue in January is so bad you can straight up show executions on your videos because you weren't going to make any profit off them anyway.

[@Vielt0]

So you prefer no content on January?

[@manwe1532]

@@Vielt0 nice reading comprehension

[@Vielt0]

@@manwe1532 My bad I finally understood.

[@zema9401]

@@Vielt0 Now i know how Jordan Peterson felt like.

[@IngvarMar]

Arrgus many people say the add revenue in January is bad. I don’t get it, what’s the reason?

[@somniato7759]

Arthur is basically a kicked dog who becomes a wolf that defends himself until he kills another pup.

[@nougar-554]

thats... thats actually a pretty good summary of it

[@Outlaw7263]

"A beaten dog may fear you, but the second you turn your back he's gonna strike." -Dmob, Def Jam Fight For NY

[@Lancea1ot]

This is also one of the most beautiful films I've seen, the cinematography is just outstanding.

[@TheDreamingJune]

My feelings exactly. I kept thinking that as I was watching the film. Almost every frame was art.

[@themoreyouknow7418]

The set dressing was perfect

[@Fightzpike]

Lancea1ot if you like this cinematography, you should watch Midsommar. That movie is absolutely beautiful.

[@verycoolpotato]

Arthur legit scared me throughout the movie, so unpredictable

[@Islandkid679]

And is the Joker exactly

[@GameMaster-pz9pw]

0:57 "I'm like a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what I'd do if I ever actually caught one."

[@geomatricfilms4015]

“I just do things.”

[@_02kaye]

@Sαitαmα Sensei Not in this movie

[@mysticpowerz808]

@Sαitαmα Sensei All of that was the "chasing" part though?

[@RastaGamesful]

I am sure that after the Joker, big studios should think about creating solo films about villains and not do the typical struggle between good and evil. Presenting everything in gray tones. Where there is no black and white, like the Witcher world for example.

[@tanmayjain5385]

I've only seen the show but isn't Nilfgaard evil ?

[@RoastTurkey101]

I agree but I can also see studios taking the wrong message from it and just give us solo villain movies that lack comic book elements. Joker works because it's a man beaten by society who eventually retaliates, it doesn't need comic book elements and neither does Joker (the character) to work. But a movie about Lex Luthor being a plain old corrupt businessman who lacks the presence of Superman doesn't work as well, because then it's JUST a movie about a corrupt businessman and that's not as interesting. That's my take at least.

[@Slithy]

And their movies will still be shit because they only ever care about copying external aspects without giving a second thought to substance.

[@RastaGamesful]

@@tanmayjain5385 In the eyes of the Northern Kingdoms, they are invaders. This is only the 1-st season so most likely in the future we will be presented with a kinder side of Nilfgaard.

[@lordodysseus]

I think A Song of Ice and Fire is a better example, maybe because I prefer it over most other stories. Despite what Joffrey, Ramsay, and Euron do, you can find some sort of justification for their shittiness, no matter how bad the justification is. Ned isn't perfect either. Nor Robb. Their actions get them killed, no matter how good or bad. As for The Witcher, I haven't read the books, but I played the 3rd game and watched the show, and from what I've heard about the books, Geralt is Gerry Stu.

[@AJ-pz5hr]

"As kids, we love the heroes. But as an adult, we can understand the villain."

[@mytesticalsmaybesmallbut8697]

Shut the fuck up

[@yapzormiracle1402]

Z EN in real life there is no heroes all of ud are villain

[@norae.5548]

Me watching Tom and Jerry

[@thekiller7994]

Wd2 Fan no u

[@brycejohnson8486]

He didn’t actually kill his neighbor, they were gonna have a scene where joker was on the murray franklin show and his neighbor was watching it on tv, but they cut it out because they wanted the movie to be from aurthers pov, and showing her watching tv with her daughter would ruin that

[@jeffreytackett3922]

That scene doesn't establish any redemption, and therefore has to be establishing further evil. Otherwise, there's no purpose to having it in the movie. He killed her.

[@macsenstavrakis205]

@@jeffreytackett3922 It was confirmed in the script he didn't kill her, what are you talking about?

[@jeffreytackett3922]

As I've said ... either he killed her, or Todd Phillips is a moron. The scene doesn't do anything, if he didn't kill her. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't change, advance, or establish anything. Either he killed her, or Todd Phillips wasted time on an irrelevant storyline and multiple scenes. If that's how he wants to play it, that's fine. I believe the writers created a scene in which she was killed off-camera.

[@TheoEvian]

@@jeffreytackett3922 1. The scene works even if he doesnt kill her (I actually never understood it as him killing her and nobody I know did). It establishes him in two ways: his fantasy turns out to be fake, his real neighbour is a lot different from his fake fantasy girlfriend. It takes away from him any way of escape, while it seemed for a bit he might stabilise, now we see he is totally on his own with nobody to turn to. Secondly, it shows again his terrible suicidal tendencies thus now we expect him to perform an extended murder suicide. 2. This problem is unresolvable from inside of the fictional world. There just isnt enough material provided by the narator to the reader about the ontological state of the world. We can interpret it two ways and neither can be disproven from inside of the work. So both interpretations are valid and that is why people go onto paratext: what is written in the script, what did Todd Phillips say, what scenes weren't included in the end and so forth.

[@macsenstavrakis205]

@@TheoEvian Well said!

[@TheBANDEDPITTA]

Sophie wasn’t killed Todd Phillips said himself.

[@Porlarta]

Lol Filmento lives in a nice neighborhood, must not be used to hearing police sirens

[@Dextuh-x9p]

Bold and Brash a light skin joker?

[@Gaming_Legend2]

well, then showing the cops its a questionable decision after that scene, they should have not shown that so the idea was clear

[@7dfive105]

Yes, we know. Filmento said he talked about it for the sake of argument.

[@thepunisher3160]

Todd Phillips is a joke

[@nurse425]

"All it takes is ONE BAD DAY"! -The Joker

[@WillOfMyD]

Well, in this case, it was several bad days.

[@ubeia4857]

@@WillOfMyD Make that several bad years.

[@annusrideviravindran6396]

@@ubeia4857 make it the entire life

[@silverprimus321boi9]

He means one bad day to snap and go psycho

[@Prettymami837]

Stop begging for likes

[@ghostblade5954]

the director actually came out and said that, no "Arthur never killed his neighbor, she never did anything to harm Arthur" not a correction just an observation

[@jeffreytackett3922]

Either he killed her, or Todd Phillips is an idiot for including the scene. If it doesn't establish any type of redemption for Arthur, then it must be establishing further evil. If it doesn't do either of those two things, at that point in the film, then it's a completely useless and irrelevant scene. He either killed her, or Todd is a moron that wasted our time with irrelevant nonsense. There is no other option, at that point in the character development.

[@pabrodi]

@@jeffreytackett3922 No, because that scene shows his suffering after realizing it was all a product of his mind. We would be left without a closure if, after learning that, it jumped to a different scene. Can you imagine, after our shock of learning it was all an illusion, it cuts to him talking with his mom at the hospital as if nothing had happened?

[@joshuaagee-bass4049]

Why is there no blood on him if he’ll killed them. The fact that the director confirmed it didn’t happen and yet some idiots still think it did shows how ignorant society is. Just like the Killing Joke where it is confirmed Joker didn’t die and yet people still think he did despite it being clear both Joker and Sophie are alive.

[@Catterjeeo]

@@joshuaagee-bass4049 I agree but if you have to include interviews, and statements of directors in order to figure out something about a movie there was some problem with the movie. Still I liked Joker a lot.

[@joshuaagee-bass4049]

Jeffrey Tackett or you are stupid. There is no blood and he only killed people who wronged him.

[@stacin821]

He didn't kill his neighbor. He's breaking down because he realizes that their relationship was all in his head & he's all alone

[@pr_disaster2238]

I definitely wouldn’t say I was on Arthur’s side by the end of the film. In my opinion, he’s a perfect representation of the tragic hero. I didn’t hate him by the end. I felt bad for him; but I also found him terrifying. That bloody smile he put on while standing on the cop car at the end was bone-chilling; and his demeanor in the final scene sold the idea that this was not a man you’d want to be in the same room with. They really did a great job transforming him from a pitiful, sad man to the villain we all know. In the end, I couldn't possibly condone his actions (I don’t see how anyone can). I wouldn’t stand by him. I wouldn’t try to defend what he did, but I understand how he got to where he ended up, and I pity him for it.

[@wozamigamez592]

It exactly shows on thing, How Joker Was created and how Batman was created because of him.

[@gageunruh3574]

Actually it was revealed that Arthur did NOT kill the neighbor. In a deleted scene its revealed that he didn't kill her and we see her watching the Murray's show. And the writer was asked this and he did say no he did not kill her.

[@7dfive105]

11:25 did you listen to this part?

[@occurredbison]

I will say, when people laugh at you, there's only one thing you could do to irritate them and that is to genuinely laugh harder than they are everytime they laugh at you. Which is why it makes his condition is so perfect

[@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access]

This dug up a deep childhood memory This one kid was taunting me during dodgeball. I was getting madder and madder and sloppier with my throes. Until he started just laughing. The laughing broke my rage. I got so gotdamn angry I ran across the line and pegged him in the stomach point blank Of course it was illegal. Of course I got in trouble. And of course it was really worth it

[@flowerpatchtoons1101]

@@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access lmao

[@ZeroZmm]

I saw this movie 6 times in the theater with different people. Neither me or them ever thought he had killed the neighbor. It's a huge reach to something that's not really hinted at. You even said so yourself, after killing Murray he doesn't keep shooting people that don't deserve it. Sophie wouldn't deserve it.

[@TRJK]

The director said Arthur didnt kill her

[@tokivikerness8863]

I agree but Jesus man 6 fucking times... this movie was great but it wasn't no Titanic.

[@jetroid]

@Toki Vickerness Different films speak to different people. I have watched this film a bunch of times too. I watched Titanic once and have no interest in watching it again.

[@ZeroZmm]

@@tokivikerness8863 I didn't really plan it. Just family and friends that know I like Batman and invited me, just didn't say no 🤷‍♂️

[@TRJK]

@@ZeroZmm wouldnt say no either. Except if I had to pay myself. Wont pay 6 times for the same movie

[@arverezzle]

6:16 "when he shot those punks, our shock come from what takes it so long" No filmento, the shock cone from how loud the gun sound is

[@TheRealGuywithoutaMustache]

Joaquin Phoenix is a phenomenal performer. Just genius, prodigy level acting for The Joker.

[@PittsburghSonido]

Always loved his makeup.

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

I agreed. Let's not forget that Todd Phillips is also the director of Hangover.

[@colleenross8752]

How would you rate this Joker compared to the Dark Knight?

[@footl0se]

@@colleenross8752 I rate him 5/10, It's a phenomenal acting but it doesn't fell like the Joker

[@aliyahabrahams]

I don’t think we can blame Arthur for other people’s actions. There’s also the fact that Arthur is mentally ill and that this all happened after he was taken off his medication, which plays at least a part in his actions that makes us feel bad for him.

[@mray4784]

We live in a society where we encourage clowns instead of helping them.

[@kubli365]

*cough* two-party system *cough*

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

M ray Unpopular Opinion: I think Heath Ledger would be a better example of how to make evil likable. And should evil really be made likable in the first place??

[@lonestarr1490]

@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Heath Ledger's Joker was never made likable. He was made respectable and fearable. Everything else is just plain Stockholm syndrome.

[@amgm1996]

@@lonestarr1490 👏👏

[@mrboerger1620]

How a character is made likable by their personality also how does one get Stockholm syndrome because of a character

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

*1989:* Joker fell into the vats of chemicals that disfigured him and went insane. *2019:* Joker got thrown into the society and he finally snapped.

[@Ento2012]

Characterbackstorydevelopment is the new trend for superhero movies.

[@tubate20092]

basically same...

[@EagleZtoTheGrave]

The society became the vat...

[@cynicalmemester1694]

Hearing this quote constantly is really tiring to be honest.

[@pizzatime8773]

SOCIETY

[@tramrant]

13:48 that's just your interpretation of the scene, for me and as i can see for most viewers he's breaking down cause he realizes he finally lost it, there's no girlfriend, he's no hope and noone, police flashlights could be from her(neighbour) actually calling the police, after all her home was just invaded and she felt threatened in a way. The implication of him killing her is just what you personally chose to see and believe, neither actor or director intended the scene this way, so there's no problem for most viewers, who interpreted it as director intended, with still sympathizing with the 'hero'.

[@SnowyJakub]

I just saw one thing tht dismisses him killing his neighbor, when he walks out the door closes but he wasn't the one closing it, look at the scene

[@hookoffthejab1]

Could've been like where you give the door a flick behind you as you leave it. Doesn't matter though the director confirmed he didn't kill her

[@alexbattaglia8297]

true and as for the police sirens, I mean c'mon, it's New York lol

[@zadok23]

*Gotham

[@SnowyJakub]

@@zadok23 Gotham is based on New York

[@mariopantoja8259]

@@SnowyJakub it's based on New York and Chicago...I know where I'm at the sirens and lights are a regular..... squad cars, fire truck, ambulances go off regularly

[@christophergutierrez2137]

If the daughter of that neighbor ends up becoming Catwoman I´m gonna lose it

[@johannesschmid3500]

He didn't kill her. There's a deleted scene where she shows up again

[@aramfingal5180]

@@johannesschmid3500 so now deleted scenes are considered canon?

[@neetfeet35]

He did kill her. Remember the sirens and that's when he had his worse laughing fit. That was the descent into madness was complete.

[@TheDrizzle404]

@@aramfingal5180 Depends on if it was completely deleted, or if it was just removed from the theatrical release.

[@rummagingchaos]

joker was a masterpiece and i will never let anyone convince me otherwise

[@kingbr33zzy86]

but it wasnt

[@wozamigamez592]

@@kingbr33zzy86 How?

[@muhammadshemede5874]

@@kingbr33zzy86 how??

[@Rar830]

@@kingbr33zzy86 How??!

[@kingbr33zzy86]

it literally just wasn’t deep, it’s the fucking joker and they made it taxi driver 2.0

[@Laufbursche4u]

There's one more victim: The last therapist.

[@philippecapelle8016]

She get what she fucking deserve

[@jeffreytackett3922]

To be fair, most of the reason that the audience doesn't "turn against him", is because he is a character who has been developed for decades previously, and is known to be evil/insane from the outset. It's not like we are just meeting him, for the first time. Everyone knows, going in, that he's going to become the Joker of the previous movies, cartoons, and comic books. In essence, we are all against him already, but seeing how he becomes what he is, is satisfying. At least there's a reason for it, rather than just insanity. This is also the exact reason that I don't believe all of the "he imagined it all" theories. If everything was imagined, then why bother? It takes away from the depth of the character, and minimizes his struggle, entirely. If he's just insane, then nobody can identify with him. If he was pushed over the edge, we can all imagine it being possible. This would be like suddenly finding out that Superman was getting paid by the government, and wouldn't have helped if he didn't get his paycheck. It's a complete minimization of the character.

[@Dimumouto]

I can see where you're coming from, but all we've known of Joker before this movie was the insane clown prince of crime. But here, we see Arthur Fleck, not Joker (until the end at least). A lot of people like Joker because he's funny (another one of Filmentos videos on Tony Stark says something like you can be a likeable asshole as long as you're -funny-), despite the horrible things he's done, like rape Barbara Gordon or murdering one of the Robins. Or abusing Harley. But here, again, we don't see Joker, we see Arthur Fleck. And many people feel sympathy for the character because of their own personal experiences with similar, but not to the same extreme, situations. Everyone at points has been kicked like a dog and wanted to lash out, so seeing Arthur do so finally is cartharsis. You know what he's doing is wrong, but at the same time, can't help but feel he's justified in some way by doing so. Another example is the growth of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader. We know in the OT what he's become and who he is. You feel angry at the wanton destruction of Alderaan, wondering how could he just kill an ENTIRE PLANET without remorse. But in the PT, we see Anakin as a child and grows up to be a Jedi and falling in love with Padme. You KNOW what he's going to become, but in some cases, you can sympathize with ANAKIN for what he's done by the end (much more so when you look at the child abduction the Jedi do). But because it's ANAKIN and not DARTH VADER, there's a degree of separation. Same with this movie; we're not seeing Joker, we're seeing Arthur Fleck.

[@leeroyjenkins4456]

@@Dimumouto when did he rape barbera? Because if you are talking about the killing joke he just shot her and took off her clothes

[@tejotcoty8363]

@@Juniorgrimes you should get in touch with Chek House

[@Juniorgrimes]

@@tejotcoty8363 *idk who tf that is*

[@tejotcoty8363]

@@Juniorgrimes check house mall my balls are

[@thaghost3260]

Notice how after Arthur kills Randall, he lets Gary go because he never did anything bad to him. Gary was the only person who actually cared about Arthur’s well being and because of that, he was spared. Always treat people with kindness and respect, because it may quite literally save your life in some situations

[@LPempty]

“This movie is one that doesn’t have a plot” spends the entire vid explaining the plot

[@logix8969]

No, he spent the entire video talking about character development. Character development |= plot.

[@LPempty]

Doctor Logiq no he was talking about plot

[@Juggler4071]

@Austin Martín Hernández Yes. A movie does not need a plot. It's not a weakness if there isn't one. It's a weakness if there is *supposed* to be one and it's absent. But here there is no need for a plot as such - it's simply a character development. And that's hard to do without the crutch of a plot to hang the character development on. Phillips pulled it off superbly.

[@danielruiz8259]

@@logix8969 You can say that this movie is a character driven movie

[@ngawurbanged9462]

@@logix8969 the plot is arthur's character development

[@Nick-lb3qb]

I really love that the writers of the movie incorporated galastic epilepsy (laughing seizures) effectively, and in a way where it establishes Arthur as different early on in the movie, and not just as a ‘fun little quirk’.

[@ChilapaOfTheAmazons]

Pretty sure *he didn't kill the neighbor.* It's not consistent with everything else that he does in the film. The movie shows plenty of murders, it doesn't show this one because it didn't happen.

[@jdturner1106]

10:07 The *pew* sound effect made me rofl

[@aliyahabrahams]

Arthur never told anyone to kill Wayne. But even if he did, the audience was also turned against Wayne at this point.

[@boakes7142]

There is no way he kills the neighbor. Rewatch the scene. When he exits, there are no body movements from Arthur indicating that he shut the door behind him. If he didn't kill his little co-worker because he didn't wrong Arthur, then why would he kill the neighbor?? The idea of leaving it ambiguous may have just been a bad decision but I think it's meant for us to have that small ounce of faith in Arthur Fleck that he didn't kill her.

[@victorpavan6946]

Last time I was this early, Filmento wasn't invited to events like a Marvelous Scene

[@themadtitan7603]

Lol same.

[@ManicallyMetal]

The score of the movie was incredible and helped made scenes what they are. They picked the perfect people for the soundtrack.

[@korliyon2283]

I was shivering during the whole movie when I first watched it. I was barely able to eat popcorn. As much as this film might be viewed as controversial by some people, it did what not enough movies do: Make a deep emotional impact on the audience.

[@Zeddyboi86]

Don’t care. In my mind, he didn’t kill his neighbor.

[@Diamondduck98]

the biggest issue as i see it, the police would have been going door to door to ask neighbors if they saw or heard anything....not just some sirens outside in what is established as a shitty place. she aint dead

[@dalnim4294]

@Black Ninja Because they firmly establish that the character doesn't kill people who are kind to him and the neighbor never treats him badly. She's even kind when she asks him to leave. The argument used about the sirens doesn't work either because you can also hear sirens drive by at the start of the film while he is writing jokes in the living room.

[@flamevortex]

@@dalnim4294 Clearly the police were called because he was butchering those jokes.

[@caldw615]

The director confirmed in an interview months ago that she was alive, they just wanted to leave it somewhat unclear for the movie to let the audience feel that uncertainty.

[@Galloglaoch]

@@dalnim4294 His psyche might as well interpret her not comforting him and not being there to him as her doing wrong to him. It's as if she forgot everything they had and is trying to distance herself from him, when he needs her. She just sued him it seems, she was around and now that he needs her msot she gives up on him, like evryone else. It makes perfect sense to kill her. I also don't get why people are so ready to defend the joker.... He's the bad guy in case you haven't realized. He's Thanos but the movie is from his perspective, youa re given a reason why he's like that you are made to feel sympathy towards him but he's irredeemable. He's evil! Why are you defending him syaing he wouldn't kill her. If this is the Joker(which imo it's isn't but to each their own) he is an agent of chaos. He represent those people that can always justify doing wrong. Hence it makes perfect sesne for killing the neighbour, she didn't love him, she didn't want to be with him or simply he didn't realzie they weren't together and she betrayed him...in any case he's an evil motherfucker. He has more reason to kill her than the small clown too so that argument is useless. The other option that is not the joker(the character) it's just a character let's say inspired by him but just masquarading as him for us..as in to draw audiance for such movies as otherwise no one would've liked it, then I guess you can make a stronger case for him not killing her but again the movie gives us enough reason to see he can justify his illusions as reason someone has wronged him. It's more than plausible that he won't just leave...he'll consider her behaviour hurtful and well...do what he does to people he feels are unfair to him. In both cases he's the bad guy, a sympathetic one but bad none the less. Not to mention trying to reasonably defend and explain with logic the actions of mentally ill psychopath is not a good idea...he's 100% acting illogical.

[@PhoebeCamui]

The movie was so well set up that even now we're still defending everything that is ever brought up about Arthur.

[@sayx]

Are we sure this is Filmento? I don't recall him ever escaping the clutches of his dark twin Moviemento.

[@deceptivelysmallman]

no this is patrick

[@themoreyouknow7418]

Maybe it’s Maybelline

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

You don’t have to make evil likeable or sympathetic. Just compelling or engaging enough to make the audience care about what’s happening to them or what they’re going to do!

[@pariya5103]

I don’t think i ever loved a villain that much , his change breaks my heart even more cuz he was abused to the point he finally crossed the line

[@Coleees]

It’s confirmed by the director that he didn’t kill her

[@Kevin000]

Byler Barton in the original script her story was merged with an imaginary cat he kept seeing. The director merge the two making him fantasying about her instead of the cat. So , the shots about them we saw it was supposed to be real to arthur.

[@Theyungcity23]

Does it matter? The Joker is all about killing and mutilating every citizen of Gotham for the fun of it. We know he tries to kill her later on.

[@solid9981]

@@Theyungcity23 how do we?

[@k1z4cz3k]

@@Theyungcity23 No. We doesn't.

[@Theyungcity23]

@@solid9981 because he is the Joker. And again why does it matter? We see that he kills the totally innocent psychiatrist at the end.

[@jammygamer8961]

While i wasn't against him in this film and i understood why he did what he did i still didn't like him as a person i just felt bad for him. As a villain i still like him tho

[@ekthor27]

Read all the comments and realized that "we live in a society..." That's too much man.

[@UnderscoreJohs]

“He doesn’t kill her, definitively,” Phillips said. “As the filmmaker and the writer I am saying he doesn’t kill her.” Todd phillips on whether arthur killed his neighbor

[@deceptivelysmallman]

too ambiguous edit: it needs to be tattooed on his forehead otherwise i cant tell

[@XOSteveXO]

@@vashsunglasses That's because they want to use the narrative that everyone one who gets killed deserves it. Hence "You get what you fucking deserve". I personally think he killed her.

[@gJonii]

@@XOSteveXO there's nothing in the movie suggesting he did. I did notice that they left it open what exactly happened between the two when the reality and fantasy collided, so it seems a plausible enough headcanon to think joker killed her, but it would go against his character and has nothing to support it. It's just wild speculation

[@scorpioniski1801]

@@vashsunglasses but he killed psychiatrist at the end out of camera. We don't see it, only hints like bloody footprints.

[@gJonii]

@@camiloj.obreque3597 Still, they did absolutely nothing to even hint that the neighbour was killed. People seem to be confused since the neighbour, rightfully, was scared for their life as a strange man was in their apartment, but we as the audience were told exactly why that happened and how it had nothing to do with Joker wanting to or trying to kill her.

[@kiratherenegade1561]

Wow, the sequel really shat on the first film.

[@brookshyde5663]

Just wanted to put it out there that I really appreciate and love this channel. The quality of your videos and organization is something other video essays can aspire to be. The ideas presented are very clear and informative. They help my own understanding and breakdown of movies. Keep up the great work.

[@Captain_Draco]

Arthur's 6th kill wasn't the neighbour, it was the social worker. Like you said, he had no reason to kill the neighbour, it was his own head that lead him on. The police lights are an implication that an unstable neighbour was just in her house during a breakdown and made her uncomfortable.

[@Wolffman109]

8:19 Joker even lampshades this when he says, "Have you seen what it's like out there, Murray? Do you ever actually leave the studio?"

[@deepzepp4176]

Joker was basically Taxi Driver meets King Of Comedy, and it was executed really, really well.

[@jmalmsten]

"I'm the bad guy? How did that happen??" William 'D-Fens' Foster, Falling Down

[@calebyates4895]

I’ve always had a joker obsession, so this movie just kinda helped me to enjoy the joker as a character and a person. Making the best villain in the dcu even more deep

[@Pugsliee]

Make me sad rewatching this video after seeing the second movie... :(

[@hannahmarie7486]

This movie is so mind blowing, I find myself loving this movie even more. I question why I find myself liking Arthur and I’m glad you can explain it so well! Thanks for making this video.

[@MalabarTheGreat]

😉 🔥

[@clintonlewis2547]

Amazing movie, fantastic story telling. It’s a wonderful thing to see a movie that is dedicated to story over special effects. Fantastic break down as well. He didn’t kill her, they have come out and cleared it up officially.

[@TheAstroG]

"He kills seven people, which is a lot for a hero" * laughs of Deadpool*

[@LeoStaley]

Joker in this film wasn't evil. He was sick. Evil deserves punishment. Sickness deserves compassion and treatment. He was sick the way John Nash in A Beautiful Mind was sick. It drives you to beleive things, and feel things that are irrational, and can even make you violent. Arthur lost his connection and to reality because he was mentally ill. He was legally insane, and could never be held legally responsible for his actions because he wasn't in his right mind. This is fundamentally different from Heath Ledger's joker, who was clearly in his right mind, and aware of his actions.

[@Theyungcity23]

Leo Staley Its the same character though. A tremendous of the Batman universe is that even with mental illness we still can fight and we still ultimately have a choice. Everything that Joker has wring with him mentally Batman has as well.

[@javieremoya]

I'd agree for you if it weren't for one thing...what do you call the murder of his coworker in his apartment? We as viewers understand why but that murder scene wasnt insanity, that was arthur WILLINGLY choosing to murder 1 and leave the other. After he shot Murray, he laughs...but not uncontrollably, it's a genuine purposeful laugh. He may be ill in some spots, but it shows he's very much in control of most of his behaviors minus the laugh

[@LeoStaley]

@@javieremoya Both murders occurred WELL after he had been completely off his medications. He had already completely lost touch with reality. It's a classic psychotic break. Pay attention to his behavior toward Gary after he murdered Randall. It takes a while for Arthur to realize Gary is afraid of him, and he seems almost surprised by it, and makes light of it, as if he thinks it's silly for Gary to be afraid of him. He does that jump scare at him because he genuinely thinks that now is a time for joking fun, that Gary should laugh with him. Those are not the thoughts and behaviors of someone in his right mind. He's off his meds, and deep into a psychotic break. In the interview, he shows no awareness that what he did, or was about to do, was wrong, or unexpected, at all. He behaves and speaks as if he believes his actions are what any normal person would do or have done. The laughter tells you nothing; it's literally what he does when he feels any strong emotion.

[@FuzzyNinja21]

Yeah I agree. A good defense lawyer could get this Joker off on an insanity plea. Conversely, Ledger’s Joker made very calculated and premeditated moves. He looked angry when the mob called him crazy, and he was repeatedly portrayed as a psychotic terrorist who did what he did because he wanted to watch the world burn.

[@Jessie_Helms]

What’s crazy to is almost everything he does is completely justified... at first. Killing on the subway? First kill was cut and dry self defense, the second one was debatable, and the third was cold blooded murder. What he did to his mom? Pretty understandable in that situation. But he takes it too far. Again, first kill was 100% justified and no self respecting judge or jury would call it murder. The second makes you uncomfortable- it was the heat of the moment, but he wasn’t actively hurting him, so I could see someone considering it murder. And finally the third is cold & evil, a clear cut murder. It makes you question what you consider wrong and right, and makes you wonder about your ethics. It’s such a beautiful movie.

[@Mallikeet]

How to make evil likable: Start with a good man

[@MikeVestering]

Yeaah Joker is awesome and so is filmento!

[@MrEdium]

THE DIRECTOR HAS SAID THAT THE JOKER DID NOT KILL HIS NEIGHBOR.

[@stedyedy23]

I never got the impression he killed his neighbour, don't know where he got this lol

[@ruebenaragon493]

@@stedyedy23 everyone assumes he did because after he leaves her apartment there's sirens approaching and they infer it's for the neighbor. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me

[@Filmento]

@@ruebenaragon493 Interesting. Then what do you think that shot of the sirens is there for?

[@ruebenaragon493]

@@Filmento big fan. I always assumed sirens are fairly common in Gotham, especially with the city going to crap. Or it could have been the neighbor calling? Considering someone did break into her home

[@miscellaneous9506]

Filmento Why would he kill her? He’s only killed people that wronged him, it would be completely out of character... Especially considering he thought of her as a love interest. You’re really going to make that leap that he actually killed her?

[@LS5D]

tbh I don't think the neighbour ever actually existed. It could be a hallucination of him channeling his need to have a nice person in his live.

[@terellchapman8737]

6:50 him fighting back wasn’t evil like you said it was justified. Also no where in the movie did they imply that the lady and her child had died. The ambulance stormed *by* as in passing the building.

[@terellchapman8737]

@The Sans ???