Joker is NOT a Victim

[@HiTopFilms]

What is your favorite take on The Joker? Thank you all for the love and support. ❣

[@yungcees3317]

Ledger is the obvious answer so imma say Jerome from Gotham

[@rojobroko5979]

Mark Hamill is my fave, if going live action Jack Nicholson.

[@Dylanisa_BasketCase]

Mark Hamill and Heath Ledger

[@CringeOpinion]

Death of the Family. It’s a great design, Scott Snyder really gave a unique take on the character.

[@Dylanisa_BasketCase]

​@DRealSlipstreamzHeath but yes

[@ColdBloodedProd]

Wholeheartedly agree with this take. Joker is terrifying because he is comfortable in his own madness. He doesn’t want anyone’s sympathy, because he doesn’t belong anywhere or to anyone. And he revels in it. It’s so far from what makes us human, that it makes him endlessly captivating.

[@JokerFan-hj4iv]

The only true way to explain the joker is pure chaos which IMO is much scarier than pure evil. We understand evil we’re used to pure evil villains but someone like joker is the kind of character that even evil characters avoid because he’s impossible for normal people to understand. I think it was Dennis O’Neal who said something like “joker would spare your life one day just because he liked your shoes then the next day kill somebody else just because he liked their shoes.”

[@Justin374]

This is a very well written comment

[@alphamega1811]

This is exactly why I wasn't a fan of Joaquin's Joker. He was the victim. The world hurt him. That's not how the Joker operates. It's also why, (*hot take ahead*) I enjoyed Leto's Joker. Because he was exactly as you said, comfortable in his madness.

[@car10s8D]

@@alphamega1811 I think In Todd Phillip's Joker, Arthur was supposed to be the mask he wore to society. In the bathroom dance scene we see him starting to embrace his madness and getting comfortable with it. He's taking off that mask, and becoming who he truly is.

[@Rose333X]

@@JokerFan-hj4iv lmao joker is not chaos. He is pure "evil", chaos, aka randomness, encaptures both good and "evil", if joker was chaos, he'd be equally good and evil, randomly doing all kinds of things, both helpful and destructive. Thats the nature of chaos.

[@joshmarkham862]

Joker is literal proof that sometimes it’s okay for a Villain to just be a villan.

[@SinarBaru-bp4jx]

Even palpatine was born bad evil from beginning before join sith

[@duartevader2101]

Couldn't have put it better.

[@ggt47]

Ahh,read the darth Plageuis novel?

[@birdcar7808]

True but I kinda miss when he was also really silly, like in the 60’s Batman Show

[@D14MBK]

@@birdcar7808 he should always be both

[@Thepopcornator]

The thing that saves the Arthur Fleck version of the Joker, for me, is the end where it turns out a significant amount of the movie was all in his head. That, for me, was a visualization of the 'multiple choice backstory' thing, and I really enjoyed that twist.

[@ammagon4519]

Wait, did the movie not actually happen?

[@YoloSwaggMcJagger]

@@ammagon4519 The movie did happen, and it didn’t happen, whichever parts you want to believe happened, happened ;)

[@Infamous1892]

But not Evil. That's someone with a severe mental issue. Put it in that light Batman is a bully hurting this poor man. However, the Joker relentlessly kills other with no compassion. It paints a monster as the victim.

[@MasterChakra7]

The ending is open to interpretation. All we know is that he was talking to the psychiatrist, but from a meta point of view, we'll never know how much of what we just saw was told. It could be parts, it could be everything. My problem comes from the fact that there's a second movie coming in, with Harley. So this one is happening in real life. Will this prove that everything in the first one was real, or is he gonna reveal his true nature as described in this video ? I don't really see the latter happening to be honest, not if they want the story to be compelling without Batman.

[@ammagon4519]

@@MasterChakra7 yeah I'm surprised there was even a 2nd movie, I didn't see Joker 2019 as a comic book film, but rather an absolute thriller and a look through someone's mind, so bringing in comic book stuff like Harley would be arguable...

[@jakesimpson3373]

I think a lot of the problems with the Joker is that a lot of stories involving him treat him the same reverence he treats himself with, when in reality he’s weak, pathetic, and wrong. In The Killing Joke, he’s wrong about it only taking one bad day, in The Dark Knight he’s wrong about the people on the boat killing each other to survive. He thinks him and batman are two sides of the same coin, that neither could live without the other, but he’s wrong. Batman has a rogues gallery that goes far beyond just the joker, and more importantly batman has a family that he loves and that love him. The joker only has batman, he is nothing without batman, but batman has plenty without the joker. Too many stories treat joker like he’s correct about society and how the world works, but he isn’t, and thats why he’s the villain and batman is the hero. He isn’t batman’s equal, and they aren’t two sides of the same coin, but he needs to think they are in order to justify his own existence. He’s the polar opposite of batman, he’s the definition of someone who stared into the abyss and blinked. Where he was broken by the hardships of life, and couldn’t take what he viewed to be meaningless, batman knew he could try to make the world a better place. Monsters aren’t made by one bad day, monsters are made by weak men like him. Its why the Killing Joke is my favorite Joker story, it absolutely tears down everyone he believes in and thinks about himself, while strengthening Batman’s character. BTAS Joker and Arkham Joker are fantastic versions of the character, along with the stories I mentioned earlier, they show him as pathetic, but still make him a threat. That shows how good the writing in those stories is.

[@ASTROPLANET13]

I wish this comment was pinned. It's insane how much the Killing Joke's main thesis, as you said, that it doesn't take one bad day, is completely missed by a lot of fans. Jim Gordon doesn't crack. Hell, Batman is by most definitions "crazy" and dealing with his trauma unhealthy, but he never uses that as an excuse to become a sadist. Funny enough, Watchmen's Rorschach (another Alan Moore story) is lauded as being this unmitigated bad ass and paragon of virtue when Moore himself tried heavily to portray him as toxic as fuck.

[@goldenhorse4823]

One of my fav Joker momments is in the DC Expanded Universe cartoon where he drives a whole town insane by manipulating a psychic child who drives people mad around her by saying she does not drive him mad because he is already mad but then at the end it is revealed he was just using a device to supress her mental powers and soon as Batman removes it Joker goes insane and I mean proper insane. Biggest joke Joker ever pulled on the world was convicing others he is above human.

[@frazfrazfrazfraz]

Well, he's not exactly proven wrong, just that it maybe wasn't bad enough. It's possible that most people, if not everyone, will break under enough torture. We all have our physical and psychological limits. The bigger question is why does that matter? Why should we care so much about having limits? Joker seemingly is pushing people to these limits to prove something, but does it really matter? Many of us are always trying to improve, and do the best we can. Does having limits really devalue the effort we put in now?

[@frazfrazfrazfraz]

Also he's not completely wrong in the dark Knight. He says his main plan was Harvey Dent, which worked. And Bane reveals what Harvey Dent did. I guess it didn't destroy the city because their lie worked, but the people did find out.

[@olofacosta3192]

Exactly. This is why I hate injustice. Not only was it written poorly,but it completely missed the point of the killing joke. No matter how hard joker tries to corrupt and hurt batman and Gordon,they won't budge. They stick by their code no matter and although it may not be the most healthy atleast they try to improve both the world and themselves. Joker can't do that. He's stuck in a cycle and I think Arkham Knight portrayed his biggest fear brilliantly

[@AlexLove631]

My favorite part of Killing Joke is the multiple choice line because it makes Joker even scarier. The possibility of madness not being explained is horrifying. He’s not some dude we should feel sorry for. He’s an irredeemable monster, period. Also while we’re on the subject, Mark Hamill is the definitive Joker. Forever the goat!

[@adonis7626]

I never understand people who criticize Killing Joke because it gave Joker an origin and that "the origin should be at multiples choices" while this was Bill Finger who gave the basics of Joker’s origins (Red Hood, Robbing, Chemical bath, etc…) and that it was Alan Moore who created the multiple choices.

[@passarovoador6662]

I disagree, i think the tragedy aspect in the Joker is pretty interesting just like batman he had a big tragedy in his life, but different to Batman, he decided to treat everything as big joke

[@AlexLove631]

@@passarovoador6662 oh I agree that the tragedy is interesting. But it’s why Batman and Joker are perfect opposites. They went on different paths, and it’s why we shouldn’t feel sorry for the joker. We all go through shit and life hits us all hard sometimes, but that doesn’t mean we become deranged, murderous monsters lol

[@passarovoador6662]

@@AlexLove631 Yeah, but i think that's kinda the part of the terror of the Joker He someday was just a guy, how the f did he end up like this? if someone decided to act like him and treat life as a big joke, could someone end up like him? And that fear of how corruptible a human being could be scares the living shit out of everyone And also could be used by the Joker to fuck with someone even more, he was human, is there a bit of humanity left in him? i don't think his humanity should be apparent to everyone or that he should be hyper relatable, but i like to think he has still a bit of humanity inside of him, and that's one of the greatest things in Killing Joke, he might have humanity but you can't just see through The Joker, you need to try understand the Joker and you need to him want you to understand him and even so, that's highly unlikely I think it should be and normally is more nuanced than just "Oh, poor guy" when "feeling sorry" for the joker or something like it, it's deeper than that

[@Jose-se9pu]

And there is no way to "cure" him because nobody knows what is even his "problem". Sadly, most writters and fans decided to IGNORE that line.

[@aarondolney4178]

There's a moment in comics where joker blows up a Orphanage and actually angers alot of other villains. Because a lot of them felt like that was a no crossing line that was where they drawed the line.

[@kail4997]

He’s trying to stop the resupply of robins It’s a joke guys, nowadays you can’t be too careful with your words

[@pierce8878]

What’s it called

[@aarondolney4178]

@@pierce8878 the comic? I'm not for sure I only know about it cause one of my friends told me about it

[@ducdantalion2317]

Maybe your friend is thinking of Batman: Cacophony. It was a school, not an orphanage. Same thing really

[@aarondolney4178]

@@ducdantalion2317 yeah I think that was it. Thanks man...I'll look it up.

[@anykso]

Ain't no way he got Adam and Eve as a sponsor on a joker video, more power to you Alex

[@GlacialScion]

I was so hyped that it was real. Actually one of the best sponsors on KZbin.

[@alchemistofsteel8099]

It reminds me of that meme where Joker is freaking out and the only thing he can say is "HARLEY HAS TEETH"

[@zanderrobson6512]

Exactly lmao Adam and Eve at least it's not Nord what ever it's called I give this dude respect lmao

[@fynnthefox9078]

The Joker would be proud.

[@andersonsansonowski5644]

I wouldn't accept the sponsorship even if they gave one millon dollars

[@mikemorro140]

I think the thing people always miss in Killing Joke is, the Joker is wrong, he was trying to prove the whole one bad day thing by torturing Gordon but that doesn't work and Gordon still wants him brought in the right way even after what happened to Barbara and the torture he went through. Batman's the same he's gone through pretty damn bad days multiple times and he still didn't turn into a serial killer.

[@greg403]

Batman: "So good people DON'T Crack, maybe it's just YOU 🃏"

[@williamfinch9858]

@@greg403 To be fair, Gordon's daughter survived, while the Joker's wife and unborn child did not.

[@bromsherwood7739]

​@@williamfinch9858 I mean in all fairness, literally the only person you can blame that on is the joker. He could have killed her if he wanted to. It's not as if she survived through happenstance and that's why gordon didn't crack and jokers plan miraculously didn't work. Joker executed his own plan perfectly, the only caveat being that Gordon's character was too strong.

[@Stardweller1]

From my point of view, even if the Joker does have a tragic backstory, it doesn't really matter, because the sins he's committed, the suffering and death he's caused, and the lack of remorse and repentance he's shown since then have far exceeded whatever may have happened to him. Someone driven to crime by trauma can only play the victim for so long and to such an extent before they forfeit whatever sympathy they may have initially deserved, and the Joker has gone FAR beyond that point. Wether he was a victim originally or not, he certainly is not one now.

[@Bentons-Crib]

also alan moore himself confirmed that batman didn't kill the joker

[@Trekkie46]

If anything about the Joker sticks in my mind, it's the fact that Scarecrow's fear gas does nothing to him. For the nemesis of a man that personifies fear, that speaks volumes.

[@HistoryEvolves]

Except in Arkham Knight when the fear toxin destroys the joker

[@bensneb360]

Cesar Romero is the most underrated Joker, his theatrical charisma, and goofy madness is so delightful to watch. Not to mention with every adaptation, trying, harder and harder to be dark and gritty, Caesars more “mad cap” version is a breath of fresh air.

[@Bentons-Crib]

i really hope we get another joker like romero's one day

[@bensneb360]

@@Bentons-Crib Me too, hopefully if Gunn introduces a DCU version, he'll be like Romero's

[@D14MBK]

Also Jack Nicholson

[@gamblertoguru382]

I liked Heath,and I think his version is where the fine line is. That line being where Joker is a little too serious,and a little too dark and gritty.

[@DavidWright1138]

I've always thought a madcap goofball doing all the dark and gritty stuff would be scariest of them all; but so hard to pull off onscreen. Imagine Ledger's story but with Romero in the role.

[@shadowspidey]

One of Joker’s main reasons why he is such an interesting villain, is how he’s the complete opposite of Batman. Giving him a sympathetic backstory, takes away from that natural feeling of complete opposites.

[@CartoonPostYT]

I disagree. I think it shows how differently Joker reacts to loss compared to Batman. Joker let it make him become a monster, Batman became the Dark Knight.

[@notfromhere8889]

Them both suffering loss and reacting differently makes them perfect enemies

[@Jellybob69]

Not true at all. The Killing Joke is arguably the greatest Batman comic of all time for a reason.

[@godzillazfriction]

they're not complete opposites... it would seem like it but throughout their feuds in comics, movies and games (especially the arkham games)... they are just as insane as each other and they'll never stop fighting even if batman kills joker although i dont agree that batman will kill more and more and make him just as bad as the joker because in that's the case then why is batman considered a 'superhero' - batman is more like an antihero than anything else... so many ppl point to how batman will become the 'Batman who laughs' but in that story, batman gets infected by the jokers gas and that's it... they could've made it so that the joker gas revealed batmans true intentions which is to kill but they didn't... the only one that does this is in Arkham Knight, batman at one point in Arkham Knight told penguin (as he's taking him to GCPD) that he's going to kill him since he doesn't feel right or something like that... now that is what 'Batman who laughs' shouldve done

[@jingleballs9935]

No

[@izziewolf2834]

I love the ideo of the Joker just being almost like a demonic entity. He appears from nowhere, his motivations are entirely unknown, and he, in a sense, can't die, because if he's killed, things only get worse *because* of his death and the chaos continues.

[@matgamarra]

Maybe you will like the Endgame storyline from Greg Capullo and Scott Snyder. It shows the Joker could literally be an immortal demonic entity, and that’s why he always comes back

[@ChadwickThompson-i8s]

My favorite Joker part is when he betrayed Redskull bc he was a Nazi(yes this actually happened)

[@adamfreddo5703]

It's funny how we almost become like Harley Quinn when we begin to sympathise with the Joker. I do hope Joker part 2 goes into that idea and how it is fundamentally wrong.

[@thewarlockgr6076]

If it does (the second part, how it is fundamentally wrong) i think it would miss the point. The point for Joker (at least in the movie) was to make the world see the ones that aren' t seen, the neglected, the ones forgotten. But that only as a facade. The joke that he says in the end the psychiatrist (and us) wouldn't get is that in reality, Arthur is just a guy who chose to let go and decided to be a being who cares only for his own happiness (because all his life until then he cared for other people's happiness and not his own, he twists) in the most wrong way possible. And in his own mind tries to in a way, reason with that view of life. There's no point for the movie to show that that's a wrong perspective, i think we can understand that by ourselves. The film (and the Joker) both manipulated you to sympathize with him and if you need the next movie to remind you that you shouldn' t then they succeded, they made you sympathize with an egoistic murderer.

[@Hiihtopipa]

I don't think there will be a Part 2

[@theunknownuser9609]

@@Hiihtopipa Dude they are already filming it.

[@yaqubebased1961]

@@thewarlockgr6076 yeah, but don't you think the process of the birth of The Joker is worthy of discussion? I, as someone who views your society as genuinely evil, think he is a perfectly logical product of his community, which makes me think that there probably are people out there who can relate to him, most likely many. It's just like when something happens in schools related to bullying that make news. You see all these ppl giving condolences and sympathies, and condemn the perpetrators, and then they get their likes and forget about it the next day or two. You people are simply too afraid to tackle the underlying foundational issues that corrupt and weaken your society. IMO, you are not worthy of the land you inhabit, and your collective ungratefulness will cause you to lose your grip on the New World sooner rather than later.

[@thewarlockgr6076]

@@yaqubebased1961 Well, of course it is important to discuss it, think about it. But by saying that the world is evil, and because of that, turning to yourself is the best option you have, you think it wrong in my opinion. I mean, society isn't evil nor good it can be both depending on the situation. For some it can be unfair but for some others fair, for some it can be full of opportunities and for some it can't. We don't exactly choose the society we live in but we can do the best we can as individuals, egoism doesn't have to be harmful. That being said i also don't find it abnormal for many people to find solace on a character who, as them, is beaten and isolated by society and chooses in the end to let it all go and don't be in pain any more, a selfish yet salvaging act. If everyone lets it go, though, we' ll have that fire and destruction of the end of the movie, and we will be nothing more than animals who can control their emotions. You can have your opinion, though, and it's ok

[@lucarod8877]

"He [the Joker] exists 'cause one boy responded to an unimaginable tragedy by wearing his fear and trying to make the world a better place" is a flawless sentence to depict both characters.

[@ribottostudio]

I think the type of Joker that I personally like the most, is the Dark Knight Joker; you understand where he's coming from in being chaos incarnate, you understand his role in the story, but you can't ever condone his actions. Batman the Animated Series had the best joker though-he isn't sympathetic, he's just a villain and it's OKAY for someone to just be a villain after having one...bad....day.

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

TAS Joker had a bad day but he was always evil before the bad day too

[@ribottostudio]

@@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259 well sht maybe I need to do a rewatch cause I can't remember his past before being Joker in that show 😅

[@Random_Person.-.]

@@ribottostudio if I remember correctly there was a scene in the Phantasm movie that showed he was a hit man for the mob

[@thomasraines1396]

I don’t know I’ve seen people legitimately claim the Joker was right. Hard to tell if they’re just screwing around or are legitimately serious. It’s like the people who idealize Rorschach from Watchmen.

[@ilikecats24-ct5nx]

​@@Random_Person.-. It wasnt in the mask of phantasms, it was in "the creeper" episode of season 3

[@Dragon_Moth]

Compare "The Laughing Fish", often seen as a pivotal 70s Joker story, which shows him start out with a completely absurd plan (attempting to copyright poisoned fish) and only killing people when he's angry that they don't take him seriously, with many modern stories where his entire modus operandi seems random murder from square one. As a result, a character whose gimmick was meant to be unpredictability has become notorious for his predictable storie

[@MidnightIsolde]

Very true. Joker is a serial killer, but he shouldn't just do that. Some justify it by referring to his first appearance being murdering multiple people, which is true and it's a very strong Joker story still. But, only having him do that is devolution of the character. It's not just due to Comics Code, but also necessity to character longevity that they developed other things for Joker to do than murder. Plus, even in that first Joker story, it's not simply the murders on their own, but rather the theatricality and unpredictability of the crimes that matter. This is what makes Joker compelling. Simply having him kill as a lone action doesn't make a good Joker story.

[@CalvinNoire]

Yeah, I don't know why Joker isn't allowed to do crazy stuff nowadays, I think an added sense of unpredictability is what's missing from modern Joker.

[@martianscienceenthusiast]

​@@CalvinNoire it's like "a death in the family" Everyone remembers Jason todd dying, Which is fair enough, but not the part where joker becomes the UN ambassador of Iran and tries to kill the entire UN with chemicals

[@prometheusmodelow8322]

@@martianscienceenthusiast Or that the whole plot started because he wanted to sell a giant fucking missile to Iran to get some money to go on vacation without the police bothering him.

[@ayushghosh5855]

BATMAN HAS THE BEST ROGUES IN ALL OF COMICS YET WE KEEP GETTING THE JOKER

[@williamerickson520]

While my favorite, Scarecrow, keeps getting done dirty, though I did enjoy Cillian Murphy's portrayal in Batman Begins. Instead of a Joker sequel, can we get a Scarecrow movie?

[@ayushghosh5855]

@@williamerickson520 i think we are getting clayface which ngl is kinda exciting

[@ChadwickThompson-i8s]

@@ayushghosh5855tbf I love a good joker, the last one was Jared’s and ye I can see why ppl hate the character. Hopefully we get a good one in the 3rd film if they make it

[@tobeornottobe5611]

The creepiest Joker moment is in the Death of the Family arc where he made an art tapestry by stitching together living people. Scott Snyder wrote the most horrifying Joker, IMO.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

in the comics, yeah that was pretty brutal.

[@olofacosta3192]

Felt that was too edgy. Joker is a monster,but a classy monster. He's not meant to be a typical serial killer doing f'd up shit. He's meant to do f'd up shit in a clown like manner lol

[@tobeornottobe5611]

@@olofacosta3192 What made it Joker-esque was the art painted on the bodies. A chronicle of his and Batman's "adventures" together.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@olofacosta3192 LOL What? Nothing about that "wAs tOo EdGy" in ANY way at all as it fit perfectly with how dark the joker can get as that whole arc was meant to push Joker to darker bounds while still being in character to who he is. Joker "stitching people together" isn't "typical serial killer doing f'd up sh!t" AT ALL as hardly any serial killer does insanely dark stuff like that for showmanship. He's hardly a "classy monster" at all as he does serial killer stuff with a joke circus gimmick to it all. It's dark humor pushed to it's limits. That's not "classy" at all, that's more in like has to do with his style of presentation and that arc was doing it to the extreme.

[@zemox2534]

​@Gadget-Walkmen The entire arc was pointless since non of the members of the bat family died. Frankly Scott only made Joker into a generic serial killer turn up to 100.

[@chadhiggins6884]

I think joker starts off as a victim but falls so far there is no excuse to his madness. A good example is making the killing joke his origin.

[@emilianohermosilla3996]

I remember that by the end of Todd Philips’ Joker, the scene that helped me think of the joker as you see him is the end, when he is in the psychiatric facility and he is laughing at his own joke, talks to the psychiatrist and escapes, I took that as a “I could’ve made it all up” moment

[@MidnightIsolde]

Same. Only for me to see it as an actual Joker movie. Otherwise, it's just Joker in name only and really a Scorcese Taxi Driver/King of Comedy film homage about a mentally ill man in an apathetic society.

[@samuelstatezny701]

I've always been fascinated by the Joker from the Telltale version of Batman. This nameless inmate at Arkham who becomes a prominent character in the second season where the story is less focused on his past and more so his relationship with Bruce, and how Bruce's (and by extension the player's) choices end up affecting and shaping the kind of person the Joker becomes. The vastly different outcomes depending on how you treat and react to the Joker and his own development give a really interesting and personal depth to the character that really stands out from other Batman media in m honest opinion.

[@InitialPC]

i think they kinda blew it at the end though, no matter how well or how terribly you treat him what decides him becoming a hero or villain is whether you believe him about him killing the guards are not also i dont like how when he becomes a villain you dont fight him as batman

[@rottensquid]

Really need to play that second season someday.

[@typemasters2871]

I love how Jason Todd’s “you’re not nearly as crazy as you’d like us all to believe” monologue to The Joker, along with The Joker’s reaction showing that The Joker is fully aware of every evil deed he has ever done. I also enjoy stories where The Joker believes that Batman has died, so he ends up in a comatose state or becomes “normal”, like his mental state only exists to achieve a single goal. Some might think this is contradictory but I’d argue that these two things can work together, Batman is The Joker’s obsession and the man behind The Joker is fully complicit to every evil deed done in pursuit of this obsession.

[@lavernebennet7395]

YES i love that scene so much, both for Joker and for Jason himself

[@Luke101]

Joker’s backstory being “multiple choice” is great because you can interpret him however you like. He’s mysterious. Giving him these “what if” origin stories is a fun thing to play around with, because he obviously comes from somewhere. The theories of Ledger’s Joker being ex-military is really interesting. But his origin can also just be unknown, and he works perfectly just like that. I think that’s a testament to how great of a character Joker is. Even with the absence of depth, he’s still incredibly compelling.

[@andrewchopmas8834]

Joker is one of the only characters that doesn't need depth

[@anthonyr598]

I have to be right there with you on this good sir. Although I was one of those edgy kids growing up after the dark knight came out that became infatuated with the joker, I do say that he’s be over saturated to the point of familiarity which makes it next to near impossible to fear him. I’ve started to dive into the comics more recently where I started again to see how maniacal and downright horrific the dude can really be. When it comes to mainstream media and films, I am a part of the camp where joker needs to take a backseat so that others can shine. Like how “The Batman” of last year gave Riddler a go (and in my opinion) did succeed in granting him a platform where he was a terrifying threat.

[@Xpertfusion]

Although I agree for comic accurate Joker, I absolutely love Joaquin Phoenix’s very different take on the character. It worked tremendously and made for a fantastic film

[@rakshithanand8262]

I think the title says it all. Arthur Fleck isn’t THE joker. He’s ‘joker’. He’s a shadow, a reflection, a step on the path. The joker is just as much a symbol as Batman- whoever first put on that makeup is long gone.

[@tompollockjr144]

It's a great film, but it's not a Joker film. It's a film about society and mental illness that used the Joker name to get a big budget.

[@Xpertfusion]

@@tompollockjr144 and it works brilliantly. I don’t see the issue with having a very different take on a character

[@tompollockjr144]

@@Xpertfusion it's a good movie, no doubt, but not a good Joker portrayal. When talking about the character specifically, there's a big difference. Personally I don't think Ledger is a good portrayal either. Great actor, extraordinarily entertaining in the role, but also NOT the Joker. He's more of a punk - anarchist than the clown prince of crime.

[@Xpertfusion]

@@tompollockjr144 yeah but I think that’s fine. I don’t want every portrayal to be the same

[@dogf421]

i think the thing with the joker is that he is not motivated by hate, but sadism. sadism is an emotion, just like hate, but hate can be explained/justified. sadism cannot. and yet, just like hate, at least a bit of it is a part of us all, and thats what makes the joker relatable, and scary to me. he embodies an emotion that is terrifying in and of itself

[@mr.moviemafia]

2:36 Thank you for showing the colorful, saturated fan-edit of The Killing Joke, it’s much better looking than the actual movie

[@Chrisvillasr]

Loved that you used footage of Jerome and Jeremiah from Gotham, I’ve been asking for a video on those jokers and this is the closest I will get, so thank you

[@DigitalHeliumJumper]

Gotham is such a slept on show and it's characters are so underrated.

[@b1ackspid3r43]

I’ve always enjoyed the idea that every origin we see of Joker may not be true, since Joker’s the narrator he will twist things all the time, no two stories are ever the same, only one thing connects them. The Batman

[@Grimskullgamer]

That’s actually the reason I love the Arkham Series version of Mister J. You don’t really get the full sense of his background. Sure, you get him falling into the chemicals at Ace Chemicals in Origins, but that’s it. He’s insane, for the heck of it. He doesn’t give a single crap about the pain and torment he causes. I’d almost argue that Arkham’s Joker one of the best iterations of him. To me, he’s legitimately terrifying.

[@realJoeMavro]

The Arkham Joker is a strong contender in my book for the most evil character in all of fiction. Two others on my list are The Major from Hellsing and Kefka from Final Fantasy.

[@christosgiannopoulos828]

"I don't want to fix the Joker" *proceeds to tell you how to fix the Joker

[@toganium4175]

There’s a character in the comics called Alexis Kaye, eventually Punchline, who made a podcast about how the Joker is sympathetic and is trying to spread a “deep” message, and wow, did that ages well.

[@belac1019]

Love the Monaghan nods! Always felt that performance was underrated.

[@JDirkfilms2]

"We want to believe that everything that is old and spoiled was once fresh and new." Fuck man. One of the best things you've ever written

[@YouVSMeTV]

This actually covers two topics in most modern stories. The sympathetic villain and overuse of the joker. You can make a villain sympathetic and terrifying. Think tai lung in kung fu panda. Or Roy Batty in blade runner.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

The Joker was never meant to be a sympathetic villain like the rest of the Batman Rogue's Gallery. He was meant to be the chemically induced insane force of nature who sometimes gets his hands on the Toon Force. The only reason Batman won't kill Joker is because Bruce Wayne knows that deep down he's just as crazy but has it under control.

[@NoCluYT]

You missed the point of the video. He never said villains can't be sympathetic, he said THE JOKER can't be sympathetic. Batman's dozens of villains all have a story and reason for what they do, but the Joker is supposed to be the one guy that simply doesn't. He's supposed to be the face of pure evil.

[@YouVSMeTV]

@@MK_ULTRA420 I agree. Though I also agree that any writer can put their own spin on it. Much like Alan Moore did in the killing joke. The issue is that when something is popular, a lot of writers tend to bite from the same pie.

[@YouVSMeTV]

@@NoCluYT I was more making a point to what I see in stories currently. Yes, complex villains in storytelling is great. But it also loses out on the ones who commit atrocities simply because they can or want to.

[@nileshroy88]

Matt reeves should keep this video in mind while making his joker. That would be so awesome.

[@NigelJinx]

Seems he did

[@jm2242]

I think Matt reaves “The Batman” joker is gonna bring that feeling back I think they’ll bring him in the 3rd or 4th film but I think they’ll be planting the seed with the Arkham series

[@guywhosnamestartswithz2520]

Giving the Joker an origin story would turn out like the Rob Zombie Halloween movies where Michael Myers doesn’t kill because he’s a psychopath or the incarnate of evil but because he had a troubled childhood, taking away his unique motive that he has none. He’s scary because he kills because he can. No reasoning or task, he just does.

[@calebmarmon1310]

I feel like the part of Joker that’s been underserved for a long time has been the prankster element. The part that is evocative of a clown. The idea that he’s an entertainer putting on a show for just for the laughs.

[@nicholasaugello2534]

He's not a victim, he once was but now he's just a monster, truly the worst from humanity, His backstory is one of the best best stories I've ever read but I would've killed myself before I let myself become something truly horrible

[@johnwells5414]

I love this! Sometimes evil is just there. Sometimes it doesn’t have an origin.

[@TheGosslings]

This was awesome. I hope the powers that he will take this to heart. You are absolutely correct. I never thought of this but it’s true; Joker’s value is in the inexplicable, unforgivable mystery, not some sympathetic sob story.

[@Lenak_]

I hope we can get something similar to Scott Snyder's joker in Pattinson's Batman. I doubt we'll ever have this, but Death of The Family and Endgame shows us such violent and unhinged joker, he's prepared to do anything just to hurt Bruce and that's amazing

[@theysayisagorilla]

Masterful dissertation sir. U nailed it on the head as to why so many ppl don't truly understand who or what the joker is. And neither does batman.

[@LoverboyMedia]

villains with zero context in general, baby >>>>>>> tdk joker, anton chigurh, lorne malvo, hans landa, terrence fletcher, richard strickland, the judge from blood meridian... all my faves are always inexplicable

[@tunasub7727]

id throw hannibal and lalo salamanca in there too

[@LoverboyMedia]

​@@tunasub7727 ooooo yeah lalo, great call

[@mriganabhkashyap1564]

@@LoverboyMedia what about Darth Sidious, Darkseid, Sauron?

[@brettfurfy8597]

I love how Scott Snyder played with the evil incarnate boogeyman idea throughout his run. It’s terrifying.

[@danielbriseno2463]

That’s why he never wants to know Batman’s name he loves not knowing

[@audax117]

I watched the fan-film "Batman: Dying is Easy" is there's this one line from the Joker that stayed on my head for a good while "I am completely and genuinely happy, every morning I wake up with a big smile, i absolutely love my life". That's what Joker is, not someone angry with society, or someone sad with his past, he's evil incarnated, he enjoys being evil, he is genuinely happy being evil.

[@kennethsatria6607]

I feel like I've been saved this kind of misunderstanding by the episode Mad Love, cause Harley is pretty much the modern audience in that situation, someone who thinks they see past the act of Joker and see his inner humanity, but the reality is shown by Batman who's fought him for years that there's nothing but darkness behind the clown no matter how many faces he puts on there's only ever been an unknowable evil as the constant. Though of course that might not always be the case across continuities, just like in more extreme elseworlds some Jokers can be a lot more simpler than the mainline counterpart who really is this dark anomaly. White Knight for instance proposes there being a simpler split personality between the Joker and Jack Napier, it works for the story they were telling, but the heart of Joker should be that unknowable evil.

[@superrobo]

this is the first time i've not skipped a sponsor ad🤣🤣 1:44

[@Lm0956]

Joker is the ultimate counter argument to batman's no kill philosophy, therefore he's the counter to Batman

[@cyke171]

This was incredible man. It’s why I’ve only seen Todd Phillip’s Joker once. Joker should be terrifying. I don’t want to cheer for him. I don’t want to empathize with him. If he scares Batman, he should terrify us. There is no reason to not be afraid. When he shows up, we should be pooping our collective pants. His obsession is with Batman, and a joker without a Batman isn’t the Joker. Thank you for validating how I’ve felt since Joker(2019) was announced. There are other great villains like Harvey Dent and Victor Fries that deserve our empathy and that’s why they’re my favorites. Joker is in his own lane, and while not my favorite. He challenges Batman in a way his other villains don’t. That’s why Ledger and Hamil are the GOATs. 11/10 video.

[@ryanbollinger1759]

This.

[@matthewlugo2417]

Heres the thing u can sympathize with him cause hes telling the interviewer his story manipulating her to let her guard down and manipulating the audience. This is why the train scene works cause u can put urself in his shoes like oh, they were probably gonna beat him to death so self defense but the one he cases and kills in cold blood thats the one ur not meant understand. Hell theres even the hospital scene where he finds out what happened to him as a child and yes he maybe lying to himself and audience but it doesn't mean it doesnt happen so it gets us to sympathize more till he does the unthinkable and smoothers his mother with the pillow. There definitely cracks when joker is telling his story to the audience like when randal says he never gave him the gun etc. Little hints that hes stretching the truth or out flat lying, same for the happy girlfriend thing. Now jokers biggest lie that makes the audience understand and sympathize with him more is his speech at the talk show. Cause everyone has done this to people whether they meant to or not just completely ignore a person/ walk by them like they dont exist, like homeless im sure we've all done it they look down on their luck and we dont know if they are lying to us or not, so we walk on by, drive on by and dont even look in there direction cause people and life are cruel. And jokers sympathy is his greatest tool to get what he wants. Sorry i went on a rant there, what i meant to say is that when first saw the joker i wasnt cheering for him because i felt like he deserved payback, i was stunned and utterly horrified that this monster was making me feel sympathy for him and his actions but also utter horror cause u never know what hes gonna do. The only time i ever cracked a smile was when i saw him take his blood and make smile with it sequence with one of the most beautiful haunting osts ive ever heard. Like this director understands joker and hes didnt give us something he doesnt understand but adores. Alot of people shit on joker 2019 but it really is a really well thought out piece of fiction

[@SalazarKnight]

The Joker has a rich history of interpretations and I think we're just in the recently discovered and barely explored "Sympathetic Era" of the character. I'm much more excited to see what comes next!

[@thabreez456]

Side note the reason I love that Nolan and many other artists don’t give the joker a backstory is because His backstory is so gruesome and messed up that even the joker doesn’t remember exactly what happened. Like he suppressed those memories and so when somebody asks him he just makes up a new story. Anyone else feel that way?

[@tanzilhossain2693]

Yes I agree, and that’s the most realistic thing…

[@DigitalHeliumJumper]

nah you're missing the point by assuming he has a super sad and horrible backstory for the way he is. the point is we don't know. and that it very well could be that just wanted to be evil cause it's fun.

[@Ithoughtthiswasamerica]

@@DigitalHeliumJumper exactly, I feel like he switches and makes up his backstory on the spot based on his victim’s fears, like when he talks about his wife with Rachel or almost rehashes the father story on the old man, it’s to make it seem more personal between him and his victims.

[@D4nielP]

You deserve an infinite amount of more recognition. Always some of the better writing I’ve heard. Genuinely believe you’re gonna be a killer director

[@apetheory7152]

Batman : Your an irredeemable monster! Joker : Oh! What took you so long, bats?!

[@LukasHale]

My favorite detail in the killing joke is every flashback is shown to be a memory (the way the comic cuts to and from them with mirrored imagery and such) to show us this is Joker remembering these events. Further proving that it is an unreliable backstory. The line before the multiple choice line, “sometimes I remember it one way-“. In multiple lines he’s telling us the backstory is just another story of his

[@NeneLazard777]

Out of all the KZbinrs, comic book and Batman fans I have met and watched, I think you are the one who gets Batman and his rogues gallery the most. Your video on Batman's no killing rule, your analysis of Clayface, your viewpoint on Jason, and now this video essay only confirm it for me more and more. I can't wait to watch your Jason fan film and as a Batman fan, I hope that one day you get to tell your Batman story on the big screen, if you have one. Thanks for helping me understand why I love these icons of justice, horror and everything in between.

[@ThePowat]

Thank you for this video, the Joker is pure evil and shouldn't be cheered or considered a "literally me" character at all.

[@nighthawk4744]

I love the idea that the Joker was some nameless schmuck in some random corner of Gotham, metropolis or honestly just some random midwestern city. He’d done things, but no matter how gruesome or creative, he just never found the right audience for his work. His passion was dying. He was bored out of his mind. In a world with gods and aliens and everything in between he was the least interesting story on the news. But then he sees a human man, not a god but some twisted madman who does what the gods do without any sense of self-preservation. Batman. And the nameless Schmuck sees him fight monsters, demons and always come out on top. And he finds that funny. So funny that he wants in on the joke too…

[@Matthew_Cordle]

I like to think of The Joker as more of an Idea than an actual person. I like when he’s an uncontrollable/unpredictable force of nature, the agent of chaos.

[@GhostGamer25]

Exactly! I hope Matt Reeves treats joker... Like a Chaotic Dragon Breaking each link of his chains, building upon himself to emerge as not an agent of Chaos....but Chaos Itself.

[@jax_personal]

What I LOVE about your videos is that even when I may disagree, you present your case so well I can't help but hear you out and be transfixed on your thoughts. Fantastic video. Though I do think the Joker film is aiming for the audience to empathize with him, at the end of the day, he still IS evil. I don't mind seeing an interpretation which showcases his backstory, but I totally understand the love for Joker stories where, as you said it, he's simply a devil doing the devil's work.

[@novadream1454]

I really enjoyed the editing for this video, it gives you the feeling of dread.

[@aaronhess7781]

I think the Jerome version of the Joker is severely underrated and just as terrifying as Heath Ledger's joker.

[@tadeuszjastrzebski1386]

I'm a bit split on this one. On one hand, I do agree. The terrifyng nature of joker is that he is very unpredictable and smiling from ear to ear while others suffer. That is by all means a trait of villians as well, the ultimate selfishness at the cost of others. However, in my personal opinion, I do like the fact the Joker was a human once. Not because I feel sorry for him, not because I feel he needs to be reedemed... it's because he lost his humanity. After a single bad day, Batman was born, the peak of humanity and in the other other bad day, the Joker, the lowest of the low was born as well. The scary part, to me, about the Joker is that while Batman proves anyone can be a hero, Joker proves anyone can become a monster just as easily. I mean... he grew so num to his trauma he reinvents it every day, just to mess around with the world. I love it, because it makes the Joker both a perfect contrast to Batman and increases the fear factor. Because by seeing that Joker was once a man, we can ask ourselves "Will I turn into him? Will I become a monster".

[@henryromain5577]

Todd Philips movies too me actually suck ass they don’t understand the character at all this video aged like fine wine

[@starc0unter]

Brilliant video, man! I love when villains are left in the dark, not fully filled in or without a specific origin to point at. Mystery is intriguing and even scary, and giving Joker a solid place he stems from takes that away. I really appreciate your videos, their so unique to you and your channel and I support it!

[@Gino565]

I’m gonna assume Matt reeves is saving joker for the 3rd film in his series (and probably the Arkham series he’s developing). The only info he’s given us regarding Joker’s character is that he’s a serial killer. My idea for a new Joker comes from the fact that Reeves modelled his riddler off of real life serial killer The Zodiac. I think he should use the same approach for Joker. And the serial killer I think he should use as loose inspiration is Richard Ramirez (The Night Stalker). Basically, a serial killer that doesn’t have preferred victim. And goes around at night, entering people’s homes and brutally murdering/assaulting them. Now that could be interesting. Imagine a scene where Joker is scouring the streets of Gotham, entering apartment buildings in rundown parts of the city, walking through the halls, randomly selecting an apartment to enter. No point, no reason, just random violence. That’s a joker I’d like to see.

[@NumbingDisasterAnon]

I always had an idea for a Batman v Joker story where it's Batman starting out and hasn't made a name for himself yet, and is out cleaning up the gangs and the odd member of the rogue's gallery here and there. But, as he is making his way in this streets of Gothem, something else is too. As criminals are fearing the Bat, they seem to be afraid of another thing too, something even scarier than the Bat. And Batman, wanting to capitalize on fear as another tool in his arsenal, is keen on figuring out this other thing that everyone is becoming afraid of. All he can work with is the colors purple and green, haunting laughter, and a sadistic smile in the middle of chaotic evil incarnate. But the Joker never shows up, only teased at, until the very end of the story with the final confrontation where we see the Joker pleasantly surprised that the Batman was able to find him.

[@cstick2664]

I read joker this way: Batman is the best of us. He has unending willpower and commitment. He is selfless to a fault. So much so that his mission is self destructive to the physical man. Joker is the worst of us. He’s completely selfish without one ounce of empathy. He just does stuff he thinks is funny or entertaining or whatever, no matter how cruel and morbid it is.

[@phantom0464]

This video explains Alfred’s words in dark knight perfectly, and it’s why Heath Ledgers joker has and always will be my favourite.

[@Grotesque_denizen]

The Joaquin Phoenix version of Joker is an alternate version, a very interesting, very well done version from a great film, don't see him as a main version of the character

[@tonkisrecords1891]

this is the best joker analysis i have ever watched

[@DamnFineCupOfCoffee]

I’d say this is definitely true for Joker as a Batman villain, but Philips’ film is more so just a film about mental health and societal failures and using the power of the Joker name and iconography to strengthen a point. And I think it’s a valid approach.

[@gamegladi8or669]

thats the issue though. The joker isnt about mental health or society. Therefore todd shouldn't have used his image. It ruins the reputation of the character because its not what hes about. A film about mental health and society is fine, but not through the character of the joker.

[@ethankleinman1067]

​@@gamegladi8or669It's just a different interpretation of joker though.

[@CoOlKyUbI96]

I can definitely agree with that thought. But as long as Batman doesn’t ever get involved in the story

[@gamegladi8or669]

@@ethankleinman1067 an interpretation that in my opinion ruins the whole point of his character

[@novadream1454]

@@gamegladi8or669 Different interpretations of the character can exist, thats a staple throughout comic books and fiction. I don’t think it ruins the character of the joker at all. I think it’s an interesting approach, because in my opinion giving a villain more character then just ‘evil’ is more interesting. I always favored tragic villains for this reason. Although I’m not saying this joker is entirely bland and uninteresting, the pure villainy can be interesting when done correctly and it was. I just believe this version you love of the joker has been done and there’s room to improve or revitalize the character in different ways.

[@vertigo7207]

i desperately want to fear the joker again. you nailed this alex. awesome video

[@mrjonjohnny7919]

That's the biggest problem I had with Todd Phillips's Joker: the character is so far from comics counterpart, that you could change the names of the characters and you would have a whatever story. I see Joker like a force of Nature. I know we can have multiple visions of the same character, but we don't have to love all of them.

[@cjputasso]

in my opinion joker makes the batman code to not kill stronger, is easy to show mercy to catwoman or Mr freeze, but the joker never shows signs of redemption and the bat spares him anyway

[@stormbreakedbyzo1962]

That's exactly my problem with modern joker. Thanks for soreading the word

[@ahsankhan-zg6gr]

I loved it! Finally what I’ve been thinking and probably the primary reason why I didn’t enjoy the joker movie Scott Snyders run on batman had this terrifying almost immortal force of nature joker. I felt he got those small moments down pat.. where batman is the only one that gets how little the joker cares for any of it.

[@shybard]

I know it's constantly debated, but Mark Hamill will always be my favorite Joker.

[@meticulvitriol3856]

The only thing in Gotham scarier then a broken man in a costume who dresses up as a demon each night is the devil who dawn's the costume of a friendly clown " Very beautiful you getting a sub lol

[@TheStrings-83639]

Basically a Michael Myers with Pennywise's sense of humor.

[@leviathan9865]

barry keoghan and matt reeves are gonna bring back the joker we use to know

[@nihilsnake4017]

I feel like the Jerome/Jeremiah in the show Gotham did his backstory right, he kills his own mother out of spite for her, he doesn’t just become the joker because of something bad that happens to him, he was always like that, but he just didn’t act upon his madness until he killed his own mother, then while being interrogated he acts as if he’s sad and upset about mothers death, then once he’s exposed for being the killer, he changes instantly as he can just be who he really is, he’s not a victim, he’s not relatable, he’s just a hateful, evil person

[@spiderluis2704]

This is exactly what I’ve been saying for years. I’ve been arguing with people online about this. I love this video

[@TheBerger]

I believe The Batman 2 is will make us fear him again. Considering he is in Arkham Asylum at the end of The Batman, there was a Arkham Asylum series in development at one point, and the deleted scene of the joker showed a joker that leans into the horror more. I can’t wait to see him in The Batman 2

[@AndrewAntoch]

Great video! It sounds a lot like the un-understandable monster you're describing is Michael Myers, which is awesome. Even better that you call him Gotham's Boogeyman.

[@Frostbite08]

A big part of the problem is just plain old oversaturation. No one wants to eat their favorite food for every meal for the rest of their lives. I'm praying that Joker isn't the villain of The Batman 2.

[@jakehamilton1589]

My favorite Joker has always been Scott Snyder’s Joker. He’s like Leatherface but very loving towards Batman and their relationship. He’s always scared me, especially the scene at the police station.

[@agm5424]

Professor geek has done a few videos, specially the trickster villain archetype video, explaining why the Joker shouldn't be some relatable guy you cam empathize with and know the origin if but a living force/embodiment of chaos and entropy that can never be truly understood. But this video explained in a very guttural/gripping way.

[@BETMARKonTube]

*"Ordinary people don't crack. Maybe it's just you"*

[@randomcenturion7264]

Thank you. Whatever injustice he suffered in the past can never excuse the endless horrors this guy has committed and laughed at.

[@Da_caffeinated_insomniac]

I find it ironic that the clowns last 2 cinematic outings are somewhat polar opposites with the sympathetic joker (JOKER) existing without a Batman projecting onto society instead while the joker who we know nothing about and have no sympathy for is intimately tied to the Batman treating his relationship with him like something so intimate (in his deleted scene) just funny to look at ain’t it Also loving the videos keep up the good work ❣️

[@kenswood2.031]

Like Alfred said in the Dark Knight, “Some men aren’t looking anything logical like money they can’t be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with, some men just wanna watch the world BURN.” He understands the Joker, probably one of the only people in DC that actually does.

[@Nick64266]

The thing I liked about Health Ledger’s Joker was he had no origin. We have no idea where he came from and that to me made him the scariest. As Billy Loomis says “It’s a lot scarier when there’s no motive.”

[@Rock-my2ko]

We dont have a concrete idea sure, but its heavily hinted that he was a black ops type who felt betrayed, and became nihilistic and later obsessed with batman.

[@mayanaman8191]

I love your new intro, it makes this channel feel more homey than it already did and makes me love your style just a tad more :)

[@PvtParts-hr4zv]

Always thought this. One of my biggest gripes with Joaquins Joker movie was that they tried to make him seem way too sympathetic almost even a martyr and that to me was never what Joker was about. He's a man with no background who wants to cause chaos

[@mollywoodshots6503]

I'm just waiting Barry Keoghan's Joker to be my favorite. No offense to Nolan's Joker, but he was too afraid to show a monster that emerged out of a vat of chemicals. It was great indeed, but I would like to see a comic book accurate live action depiction of Joker.