Environmentalism, the Tower of Babel and the Disintegration of Culture | with Paul Kingsnorth

[@adb96san]

I’ve been slowly becoming a Christian over the last years, and are considering joining a small Greek Orthodox congregation. This video made up my mind. Going to the Divine Liturgy this Sunday.

[@triscat]

Blessings to you.

[@vanessaa2301]

i would do vespers on saturday night first. i felt better prepared.

[@brettsmith9121]

Im intrested in you. . Im christin. Why are you intrested? 😁

[@brettsmith9121]

Im a Christian from south USA

[@brettsmith9121]

Yall are lost on your fake intellectulism!

[@hmkzosimaskrampis3185]

"You have the luxury of rejecting religion if you're in a culture which holds it up. But if you're in a culture that has nothing, or if you're in a culture that has replaced any sense of the divine, any sense of the sacred with basically consumerism and individualism, then rejecting religion is certainly not a fun piece of rebellion any more. It's like 'Oh shit, I think I just realized what that thing was for that we destroyed'". Paul Kingsnorth, 2021

[@Chamindo7]

Thanks for transcribing that brilliant quote! Ave Maria. Salve Christus Rex.

[@andreacuellar8644]

Amen

[@danieleriksen1130]

Such a good reply; I copied it and e-mailed it to some friends. (Left-Liberal friends...)

[@donn7152]

I really don't think I understand this...

[@krantzyboursiquot2647]

Awesome quote. Nietzsche’s context for saying God is dead. Jordan Peterson fleshes that out some.

[@marcoaslan]

Pageau is on a roll. These conversations are transformative

[@Mik3xcellence]

Indeed!

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy you will come around. Lindy effect is far superior than what is current. Older ideas that survive through time are superior to the new and short lived framings.

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy if you knew what lindy effect actually means you wouldn’t respond with such modesty.

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy So there, you will come around. Taleb and Pageau are similar but through different angles.

[@marcoaslan]

@You murdered that guy That's another way to say, fine you win

[@maryadjalal5435]

This reflects my own experience to a T. I didn't want to be a Christian, but Christ showed up and dragged me back in.

[@brucefowler2564]

Me too

[@panoramicprism]

Ssaaame!

[@triscat]

Same, times infinity.

[@97kirstiann]

Me too!!!! Can we start a club?

[@panoramicprism]

@@97kirstiann aren't we already in one? 😁

[@robstevenson6432]

Amazing. "Social justice is like the Sermon on the Mount without love, forgiveness or God".

[@RodrigoMera]

Somehow christian values cannot be enforced. If they are enforced they are not christian anymore. You cannot love your enemy by force, that's tyranny, and that's not love.

[@WakingUpToday213]

A wonderful observation. :)

[@autumnangel8004]

Such widom...🌟

[@sentientflower7891]

Christianity, the religion which committed genocide on six continents.

[@maryaigler7651]

Ah, but were they really Christians?

[@scottabney2418]

As I sit here working on cartoons, I thank you for your content. I am 30 years old and I struggle daily with myself. Talks like these inspire me to be more than I am and to deny myself, to pickup my cross and follow. Thank you so much for all the work you have done, and continue to do.

[@johannakunze3300]

How do you do?

[@tensevo]

Scott, when we understand, that actually nobody wants to be caught up in the machinery of modernity that does not serve them, only a few, then we see everybody as an ally. To the extent we are caught up in modernity, is to the extent we have forgotten to ancient mystery and wisdom. We have even lost our sense of humor in pursuit of order.

[@BhutanBluePoppy]

@@tensevo I love this

[@alexandraelhardt9767]

My two-year-old just now: "The bushes and trees are crying 'Save us!' I'm crying too!" Palm Sunday today. I only just realized that when Jesus says the rocks and trees would cry out if the people of Jerusalem were silent, the cry would be the same "Hosanna - save us!" And they do cry out. It may be clearest when we build a church, or use mineral pigments to paint Christ on a board. Even when we don't, the rocks and trees cry "Save us!" All creation yearns for the life of Christ who made and sustains it.

[@northamericanthebaid5043]

Fr Seraphim Rose: "The Patron Saint of Lost Western People" ... True! I went through TM before encountering Christ, and when I began reading Fr Seraphim Rose I was able to understand my own life arc. Thank you, Paul!

[@josephoxandale]

This guest sort of gradually won me over.

[@jimmieoakland3843]

It's amazing how the English have produced so many literary giants who were great defenders of the Christian faith. In the 20th century, think Chesterton, Graham Greene, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, Dorothy Sayers, and Evelyn Waugh. They were mostly Catholic and Kingsnorth is Orthodox, but he is following in that same tradition. I believe he will be an important voice in the years to come, and hopefully he will be joined by others.

[@antoinettekankindi6807]

And Roger Scruton who remained Anglican

[@wybuchowyukomendant]

Up to 20th century, it was extremely hard to be a western writer without being a christian, so obviously they were defending their religion

[@jonegan6807]

A good point, but technically Lewis was Irish

[@SlimeySlimeball]

DUDE! You have been so extremely helpful in giving me a proper understanding of Christianity and these interviews are just the best! This was insanely good!!! My wife an I enjoy your content. We will both be Chrismated this Sat! From IFB to Orthodoxy! What a trip its been!

[@pontification7891]

Glory be to God!!

[@fr.raphaelkevinbarberg3787]

Many years!

[@TheWorldTeacher]

@@pontification7891, there’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝️ There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person or Deity.‬🤓 It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God which created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩

[@pontification7891]

@@TheWorldTeacher OK Great Teacher. Thank you. Now I'm awake. Thank God, I'm not a Slave any more!

[@TheWorldTeacher]

@@pontification7891, Good Girl! 👌

[@haydenlukas2387]

Who knew KZbin conversations could be so awesome? Thanks Jonathan. These are awesome conversations.

[@vanessaa2301]

church experience as a lecture vs. "oh, God's in the room." .. loved to hear what this man had to say.

[@bobtaylor170]

He's mistaken, though. In the beginning was the Word. All liturgy comes from the Word, or is useless at best, deceptive at worst. The Bible isn't a "moral lecture." It shows us who God is.

[@sotem3608]

@@bobtaylor170 yet God's Word isn't confined to scripture, so it's a valid point to make IF the church puts the emphasis on scripture to much. There are churches that idolise the bible over God, personally I think this goes hand in hand with sola scriptura. So I'd definitely agree with you, that the bible isn't simply a "moral lecture", unfortunately in practice a lot of churches over-emphasize the "lecture" (moral or strictly theoretical).

[@jasonsanders8091]

​@@bobtaylor170 yes but it was the church which put together the bible and side by side with scripture are the mystery of the sacraments, hymns of praise, doxology, and the Holy Spirit.

[@rainbowparrotart]

I am stunned as I listen to this. Paul Kingsnorth tells my story! I feel so much validation and clarity.

[@iuliairi]

The last section of this discussion is basically: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." --John 12:24. This is the epigraph to Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov.

[@dalenelson8254]

Thank you, Julia, for the connection with Dostoevsky. His late novels "Demons" and "Karamazov" are like two scenarios for the future. In "Demons," people have been eaten by political ideas (as we see today) and the village is in flames. In "Karamazov," the young monk and his young friends are the nucleus of a new non-monastic Christian fellowship. It really seems like it's going to have to be one or the other. But Alyosha is not a community organizer (though on a superficial level that's what he is!). He is a man of prayer who learned from the wise elder, Zosima. Too many people think Book 5 (Ivan's "Grand Inquisitor" etc.) is the heart of the book. No, it's Book 6, "The Russian Monk," the life and teaching of the elder.

[@kbeetles]

I am so encouraged by seeing you two finding each other in this space - in the image of The Garden in the midst of this God-forsaken world of our own creation! You give me so much hope - which I need as a grandma ( even a bit like an embodiment of the mythic grandma of the people)..... please keep this conversation going!

[@yhalee345]

Thank you dear saints for making it clear how blessed we are to be adopted as children of God!!! All glory to Father God, our High Priest THE LORD JESUS, our Saviour, and the ever present help of the Holy Spirit!!!!

[@dann10000]

I can feel it too I follow you since 2016 but in the last couple of weeks I really binge watch your videos and I almost finished your brothers book Thank you for your work, you cannot believe how transformative this was to me. I went from panic attacks and "over-optimization" to a feeling of connection to reality and a caring for reality. Humanity suffers from a deep spiritual crisis. I mean I feel connected now, but I remember how dark and bitter and alienated I felt from life and I even think it's way worse with the younger generations. I just hope that this "pressure-cooking" of spiritual suffering leads to Christianity and not another global ideological experiment

[@triscat]

Welcome, Mr. Kingsnorth. May this Fellowship blossom!

[@taranmurray7046]

I can see that I am not the first to say this, but again, this is my experience exactly. I was seeking constantly, and once I understood what Christ meant, I was dragged in kicking and screaming. As Mr. Kingsnorth says "Right, so what are you supposed to do with that information?". That was exactly it. I find great relief in this since I suspect this is a wave washing across our culture. May the seeds be fruitful!

[@elektrotehnik94]

It's funny how I find myself being dragged, kicking and screaming right now ^^ Maybe not the same, but very clearly similar, at the same time ^^

[@taranmurray7046]

@@elektrotehnik94 I feel for ya!

[@elektrotehnik94]

@@taranmurray7046 No worries; I welcome the change :D

[@seanmcgabriel207]

I am so delighted Paul Kingsnorth has become a professed Eastern Orthodox Christian!

[@vsstdtbs3705]

Soon he will believe in superman and allah, other made-up stories.

[@viktoriaregis6645]

It is almost five in the morning in Sweden. U need to wake up in a few hours, and I been stucked. I have Studied religion, Christianity and the Bible for many years, but I've never heard something like this. Such a depth still very rational and spiritual the same time. I dit get a new mindblowing psychological interpretation of the Biblical stories from Jordan Peterson ( he lead me here) but from here I really get challenged. It's all a new way to look at Christianity, but completely rational. It is practical and it somehow ties everything, every aspect of humanity together. And every time I start to watch I have no clue of were it is going.

[@northamericanthebaid5043]

Your touching on the Book of Revelation was illuminating. I have been wondering if we are in "that age" (or perhaps, "an age") where we are hearing another "voice from heaven" crying out, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues..." (Rev. 18:4). It seems to me this is the call Christ offers to those with "ears to hear " in our collapsing culture and world, and you have been discussing it!

[@TheWorldTeacher]

Are you a THEIST? 🤔 If so, what are the reasons for your BELIEF in God? 🤓

[@macmudgee]

We have just tipped over from Babylon into a Beast system. Babylon is hyper license in desire and lust, the Beast is hyper oppression and tyranny. With Babylon God calls us out of her, the Beast we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the Word of our testimony.

[@aprboone1]

Boom. And i'm a practicing, devout Catholic .man ..this hit me over the head. My mind and heart are so much clearer. Carry the cross better and higher...

[@panoramicprism]

So wild that my priest talked to me about Paul Kingsnorth a few weeks ago and I'm so into the symbolic world. Then, this happens! Everything is falling into place. Yessss!

[@notamused3715]

This is fascinating. I live in Ireland too and am a reverted Catholic but increasingly disappointed and even distressed with the way the Church authorities are leading us,or rather, filing in leading us, especially over abortion and this covid con-job. I still believe in the Faith though and it's true that Christianity is still very much a part of our landscape, what with the shrines, holy wells and Mass rocks. I think that despite their all the hideous things that have happened here in recent years, they will never totally succeed in driving Christ nor His Mother out of Ireland, nor out of every single last one of our hearts! God bless and keep ye both and all here!

[@symbolicmemez]

Another absolute banger. Jonathan pumping out insanely fascinating interviews one after another 🦞

[@elektrotehnik94]

Regarding Buddhism & Hinduism, regarding receiving transforming wisdom through meditation (which is where I found the most wisdom in those traditions, likely not the only place/ way to find that wisdom there ^^); I've found their ways have some benefits & some faults: 1.) Good side --> These religions are largely experiential, not word-based; in that sense, in those traditions, what God is cannot be really corrupted in the same way as Christianity could corrupt itself. As in; words can easily be corrupted, the experience of God's Grace cannot be influenced by us. These religions are also incredibly powerful at disarming/ dissolving? ego, without needing to convince a person to believe anything, really. It is very potent for semi-stubborn atheist ego-filled Westeners such as I was ^^. 2.) Bad side --> They are largely not word-based; in that sense, it's hard/ confusing to get a good grasp of how to live your life once faced with the experience of the Glory of God. You also kind of don't have any word-based tools to convey what God is to another person... even though I don't find it clear that any religion lets you describe the essence of God to another human with words anyway. I find it that (maybe) your own transformation (caused by being in contact with God) is the only thing that can communicate the Glory of God to another human anyway. As in; it's less about the words themselves, more about what is indwelling the person saying the words while he is saying them. It also seems harder to maintain a social hierarchy with this kind of experiencing God & integrating the teachings; In most Hindu & Buddhist teachings you require a mentor of sorts to help you on your path, to help you keep your path straight & be your guide. Doing it without a mentor is not encouraged, but not forbidden. Just my 2 cents for anyone not having any grasp on the rough scaffolding of what is a part of Eastern spirituality & why people might go there.

[@chriswalth]

Guys, fantastic conversation! This brings together so many issues I have been dealing with recently, without being able to see the connections. Please continue this conversation soon!!

[@ladyfaye8248]

If I can find a well written, updated BIBLE, I will read it, which I have never done in nearly 70 years, but been listening to Jordon Peterson a lot, and now Paul Kingsnorth, and it seems I am being shown the path.

[@SteveBedford]

We've tried to create a giant machine that eats everything, but we'll be ground up in the process. Lord have mercy

[@jillbrown5175]

its a literal nothing statement. really listen to the "envro" guy. he just hates "the west" aka Whites

[@mankypancakes]

We talk about the west as a melting pot, but its more along the lines of a food processor. Its a soup vs sauce argument really

[@leondbleondb]

@@jillbrown5175 Agree. Nature worship is idolatry. He does a good job of seeming not to be an extremist anymore.

[@triscat]

@@jillbrown5175 I disagree. He hates modernity.

[@triscat]

@@leondbleondb Paul is a very newly baptized or chrismated Orthodox Christian. A little patience and humility is what I would suggest toward him.

[@garrywindshield1]

Thank you for introducing us to Paul. Very interesting conversation indeed

[@stefanlouw6395]

I keep finding myeslf returning to this talk again and again...

[@Brad-RB]

The same "extract and consume" mentality set loose on nature is also destroying relationships.

[@kanegallagher9533]

The Wake is a real work of art. He’s an impressive writer. It struck a cord in me and was so different than anything I’ve read before, yet puts to words feelings we all have.

[@sebastienberger1112]

This conversation was very helpful for me, thank you. I also just ordered one of Paul's novel. I can't wait to plunge in it ! Thank you for enabling me to discover Paul and his work.

[@autumnangel8004]

The best discussion I have heard in years!!! Thank you both. 🙏

[@ai5837]

This might be the most brilliant conversation on yt. They're talking about the weightiest things there are and are saying very heavy things with such lightness that it's just a joy :) I died laughing a few times: 1. "Give all my money away? What are you talking about?!" 2. "Eat flesh, drink blood? That's disgusting!" and 3. (the greatest one) "What kind of God gets himself killed??" Uhh... again... cry-laughing. The delivery! Pefect. I don't watch sitcoms, but I think I'd enjoy Paul's. The man is hilarious. And Jonathan... being Jonathan... just the greatest coversation ever :) So happy now ^^

[@aurelius1964]

What a fantastic interview. Thank you so much. This has been a tough Lent for me and this is a great addition to the last few days.

[@supremedreamsproductionsti3600]

It’s funny what when he talks about not wanting to be a Christians. I hated Christianity and Jesus saved me while literally trying to research information to discredit Christ and the Bible but Instead I began having demonic attacks dreams and visions. Jesus appeared to me in a dream and I realized for sure Jesus is God. I hated Christianity but I wanted to love God and right there Jesus let me know that In order to love God I have to love him and the Bible. Everything just started to makes sense about this life and the world we live in after I accepted Christ he began to reveal the truth about everything I use to wonder about. The process was extremely rough but I never want to go back to the blind and spiritually dark person I use to be.

[@peterpanu9595]

That's just what I also went through!! 😅

[@annawray2220]

Ah ha! You two meet! Excited for this one

[@annahatke2455]

My thoughts exactly!

[@michaelmorrisinfarsi]

I’m going back to church after discovering Paul. Yes, organized religion has faults, but so do people. I understand humility better now. I am gonna go with an open heart and a humble attitude. God bless ✌️ I just discovered you Jonathan, I’m going to look more into your work as well!

[@323liska]

I'm currently at 44 minutes 35 seconds thank you for this both of you. You are summarizing and echoing back many thoughts and feelings that I've had about my Christianity since I was a boy.

[@andimom2010]

This was a great way to enjoy my lunch break!! Ty.

[@augenblik9016]

This is so cool. I read Kingsnorth's One No Many Yesses back when I was a teen. Great to see him here with Jonathan.

[@emilygibbons8368]

One of the best talks I have listened to in a while. Thank you

[@nbinghi]

I think this is up there with one of my favorite conversations so far.

[@ladyfaye8248]

I feel much more in tune with Paul now, than when I watched his video 'can humanity save the world?'

[@watchingvideosnow]

This was so valuable. I believe there are a lot of people who are in a phase where what and how Paul is presenting his thoughts and journey can open new doors. Relatable background, focus on values from different perspectives. Thank you both!

[@maximilianosantiago]

So insightful conversation!

[@paulreadsthebible6584]

Amen, it's a struggle but so is life if you don't have Christ. Be blessed all. And praying for our enemies is tough. I always keep telling myself that these days. As I see 99.99% of politicians as my enemies. Thank God for Jesus Christ. Peace all.

[@SterlingJames]

God bless you both and thank you!

[@jjasmin1000]

This was a great and revitalizing talk. Probably one of the best I've seen from you Jonathan

[@StephenGrew]

Yes being fully Alive in our landscape, (England for me) whether by the sea or inland, being as aware as possible of everything and making a balance between all the various potentials, negative and positive Can make for a deeper meaning with the Mystery.

[@craiglarson4989]

Jonathan , you and JP have brought me back to a more Christ centered life.I’m 62 and was deeply impacted by the book I am Third by Gale Sayers in the 60’s . A portion of it turned into movie, Brian’s Song. A black man a white man story. One dying,one impacted immensely by his friends death. Can’t help but think about the placement of the self he states in the title of the book listening to your podcast.

[@piretkivi3218]

This is one of the best interviews I have watched. It is so good that I keep returning to it and watching it again and again and again. Thank you very much.

[@jonegan6807]

One of the most powerful sign posts leading me to Orhodoxy was a simple quote from Kallistos Ware - "Man's function is not to exploit and dominate nature, but to hallow and transfigure it."

[@SB_McCollum]

We would have always ended up here, getting it "right" wasn't within our skill set. That's part of God's glory, He always knew what sludge we are and demonstrating the depth and range of His power IS the plan, and all of creation will see it.

[@leolazaris1010]

Thank you sirs. Really really good. I didn't want it to end. I could have listened for another hour.

[@-moumou-]

Thanks!

[@jamesgardner3321]

JESUS "came and "dragged me to HIM" also. The Desert Fathers helped me to walk in the right places... as a trained philosopher I am now living a relatively peaceful life.

[@bradrandel1408]

This is really good thank you both so much for your time and what you do!🦋🕊

[@joev.8543]

I'm 3 mins in and screaming in agreement...

[@thegoldenthread]

This is your neighbor. Can you please stop screaming, I work a night shift.

[@iuliairi]

I read the Bible and I've read a few books by Kierkegaard (Works of Love and Training in Christianity) but I'd been wondering what else to read, especially from an Orthodox perspective. Thank you for an answer, Jonathan. Just ordered Philokalia, Volume 1.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

Listen to the Lord of Spirits podcast, its by friends of Pageau and very good for understanding the Orthodoxy perspective

[@brizbizel]

Since you mentioned Kierkegaard why not try Staniloae's "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" ?

[@ALLHEART_]

@@universalflamethrower6342 And also one of the priests from that podcast, Dr. Fr. Stephen De Young, has a great podcast or two for Orthodox biblical exegesis, namely the Whole Counsel of God.

[@ALLHEART_]

I recommend you check out *Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends & Doctrinal Themes* by Fr. John Meyendorff. It's one of the best over all summaries. Also, some good basic patristic works Jonathan has recommended are the Life of Moses by St. Gregory of Nyssa and Hymns on Paradise by St. Ephrem the Syrian. There's also classic stuff like On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius. God bless your journey into Orthodoxy.

[@ALLHEART_]

St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Catechetical Lectures, too.

[@themightyasterix5365]

Bless ur work bro, loving the content!

[@DennisCNolasco]

I too had a varied spiritual path, but not as varied as Paul. I loved seeing Jonathan smile when Paul was talking about his path while seeking :)

[@TheWorldTeacher]

Are you a THEIST? 🤔 If so, what are the reasons for your BELIEF in God? 🤓

[@palmtree9815]

This is a brilliant and beautiful discussion

[@Loenthall88]

This was a very, very good conversation.

[@yadira6984]

Great Discussion! Thanks for sharing.

[@jonathonaut]

I'm 40 years old and not a Christian, but several insightful ideas and interpretations are mentioned in this discussion.

[@bobtaylor170]

Praying for you. Stay open to Truth.

[@christianstander5452]

Ah yes, this is my evening sorted.

[@jongillin327]

Been following Kingsnorth since Drher mentioned him to Pageau. This was fantastic!!

[@TheWorldTeacher]

LITERALLY fantastic. 😉

[@TheDonovanMcCormick]

Fr. Seraphim Rose, the Patron Saint of lost western people. Very true. The Saint for the disillusioned modern materialist.

[@MarcumDavid]

Okay, I know it's me... But I (in the past) fit your description. But Fr. Seraphim Rose never did it for me at all. I've been Orthodox for 20 years. Perhaps if I had read him before becoming Orthodox?? I don't know...

[@TheDonovanMcCormick]

@@MarcumDavid I read him before so that probably did make a difference. Was really into the paranormal and mysticism and didn’t know Orthodoxy was even a thing so maybe that’s why it impacted me so much.

[@A17-d4n]

@@TheDonovanMcCormick he shook the new-ageism out of me too.

[@TheSaltyRainbow]

This is powerful stuff. Thank you.

[@muzzington5176]

Was enthralled the whole way through this. Wow. Keep up the good work!

[@jamememes4114]

Paul is right. Most crisis in the modern world are not political, not technological, and not economic, but ethical, and ultimately spiritual, in nature.

[@jamememes4114]

@Kurapika Giovanna I mean: I live in the third world, you know. Lived on the streets for some time, myself. And I stick to my words: most corruption, violence, cynicism towards authority, poverty, and crime (the staple products of this side of the planet) can be traced back to people forgetting the ethical requirements to belong to the Christian world.

[@jamememes4114]

@Kurapika Giovanna sure thing, bucko (: Now go out there and live righteously - which should not be mistaken with "self-righteously". I will be cheering on you.

[@jamememes4114]

@Kurapika Giovanna sounds like an excuse to me, but whatever gets you going, good human.

[@TheMhouk2]

@Kurapika Giovanna anarchism is bankrupt

[@faceit9331]

👏👏👏fantastic discussion. Thank you both 😊

[@06rtm]

36:35 This is brilliant. Its the description of our time

[@aintnobodygottime4dat]

Normally I find myself in knots with intellectual babble during most of Pageaus interviews. However, this one is clear and concise. Nice 👍🏼

[@Stephanie-el4sx]

Awesome conversation guys.

[@camarneal8058]

Beautiful. Articulate. Praise God. Thank you.

[@apairofbrowneyes77]

I understand the focus both Mr. Kingsnorth and Mr. Pageau put on the notion of self-sacrifice as a concept and practice that allows for the return of a hedonistic and self-centered society to a more ethical dharma, to a way of life that is more virtuous and respectful of life, our own and others'. I however, as a naturopath and as a human really, shiver slightly when I hear the expression self-denial and it is exactly that which for me stands in the way of surrendering to organised religion. I understand self-sacrifice more as an embodiement of limits that the world offers in order to not become a voracious (indeed one is only eternaly voracious if one is never satisfied or content) and selfish individual. I comprehend and accept that the point of life is not the pursuit of (my) happiness but really the maintenance of balance, of inner and outer peace. On this perspective, I can only understand a notion of self-sacrifice if that is balanced out not with self-indulgence but with self-care. The denial of the self and the neverending appeal for sacrifice in the name of God, namely of the poor and the meek, with the promise that even if life on Earth was miserable with poverty, disease, famine, heaven would compensate for all of that. In fact the manipulative gaslighting and hipocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church has always been the major demotivator and cause for disilusion and loss of faith. The Reformation was in fact a reaction to such corruption and shameful behaviour. So self-denial is tricky when it isn't softened with love and understanding and care for one's own inner being, which no doubt is an interbeing but is still a being both individual and collective, human and divine. I believe that what can be chipped off or denied is more the self-supremacy or centralness, not so much the self. I often think of this balancing act between the boundaries of self and collective with the analogy of corals (any fellow marine biologists out there?). Corals are neither entirely individuals nor collective, they are colonial, communal organisms. Within those spectacular colorful structures inhabit tens or hundreds of individuals (that are not all alike, there are differences in functions, forms, behaviours and choices between individuals) that live in a way of true interdependence, where each contributes to the all AND the all sustains each individual. There are certainly limitations and constraints to each small individual cnidaria polip, but it is also sustained in its individuality and uniqueness by the whole of the colony. I believe that this kind of sociocracy could work with humans, it has in Old Europe, several millenia before the Antiquity civilizations, it still works in many indigenous and traditional human populations and I dream of living in one, some day. Thank you for the inspiration and comfort you provide with your work and your words.

[@evielennard9017]

Beautifully said

[@RCCarDude]

Paul's discussion with Alex Kaschuta on the Subversive podcast brought me here. Good stuff.

[@Ty91681]

This is a fantastic interview

[@boethius31415]

I just hope that those who are strongly connected to Social Justice find their way into what Pageau refers to as the "strange movement" taking place in our culture. That's how I've found my way here, and this is a much more satisfying path to walk than its self-righteous secular alternative.

[@jasonlambert2226]

This time has caused me as a nominal Chrisian to really connect with the stories and really study and to live as I should according to the word. It's tough, but I'm much happier. I'm surprised at this conversation, I had my doubts but it turned into a wonderful discussion. It's no wonder when the elite/royalty started to convert there was a backlash, and this is when the first Monasteries were started.

[@TheWorldTeacher]

Are you a THEIST? 🤔 If so, what are the reasons for your BELIEF in God? 🤓

[@jasonlambert2226]

@@TheWorldTeacher a creator is the best explanation for what we see and experience. The stories and archaeological record bring scriptures to life year by year. The bible has more manuscripts with dates far closer to the dates in which the writers are writing about as opposed to other historical writings. Ancient Greek writers like Plato, Aristotle, Homer are written about sometimes 500 to 1000 years AFTER the events took place. So from a historical perspective, the stories in the bible a much more reliable. I haven't had a moment in my life where I know I've been pushed by the Holy Spirit, or talked to by God. I figure I haven't really let go of my concerns in life, so therefore it would seem God has not given me a sign. This reasoning might seem ridiculous to some, but no other explanation comes close to explaining origin of life. God Bless

[@TheWorldTeacher]

@@jasonlambert2226: “...the BEST explanation...” Are you ABSOLUTELY certain of that? 🤨

[@jasonlambert2226]

@@TheWorldTeacher yes

[@TheWorldTeacher]

@@jasonlambert2226, in that case, it would prove FUTILE for me to try to convince you otherwise. 😛 If it is true that there are none so blind as those who don’t WANT to see, and none so deaf as those who don’t WANT to hear, then surely, there are none so ignorant as those who don’t WANT to learn the truth.

[@anniel.3396]

Excellent, thank you for this.

[@szurnietyzdzisaw9206]

A superb interview, love it :)

[@szurnietyzdzisaw9206]

@Wer Wys Witam serdecznie! Bardzo spodobał mi się Paul i jego postawa, a Ty co myślisz o rozmowie?

[@szurnietyzdzisaw9206]

@Wer Wys Btw, niezła ciekawostka, myślałem, że nie uświadczę w internecie słuchaczki JP ;D

[@szurnietyzdzisaw9206]

@Wer Wys Precisely :)

[@pointofrevelation]

Helloooo!! We Anglicans have strong liturgical practices, and have preserved some if not all of the ancient catholic practice of the pre Reformation English church.

[@bobtaylor170]

Yes, and so have orthodox Lutherans and other orthodox Reformed groups.

[@W_W-f8y]

Amazing talk

[@conornagle9528]

Brilliant stuff guys. Resonates deep.

[@MoreChrist]

Most interesting, thank you gentlemen. The wonderful Wendell Berry has been hitting on many of these points from a distinctly Christian perspective for many decades. Amongst the Orthodox recently, Dr Vigen Guroian and EP Bartholomew.

[@benrobin111]

Any plans for more conversations with Kingsnorth? This was great

[@daveb8679]

Excellent thought at approximately 31:33.

[@tensevo]

I've honestly started to see this as the real deal, and the quest for money, power, and authority, a kind of side hustle.

[@tensevo]

As a side note, I think it is worth mentioning that I have always seen money (trade and commerce), as an antidote to war. As eluded to, we have an inbuilt tendency to religion, sacrifice, but we also have a built in tendency towards competition and war, and that the money game was always a better alternative to war games.

[@joshuadonahue5871]

Jonathan have you been reading Rene Girard? You threw away some lines in this conversation that reminded me strongly of him. Fascinating guest too; great talk!

[@henninghenningsen4870]

Ohh, well said, both of you, very well said. Deeply inspiring!

[@the_artisan]

I'm one punk that became a liturgical Christian

[@bobtaylor170]

Welcome!

[@northamericanthebaid5043]

The Sacrifice of Christ is really presented in a fresh and profound way by Hieromonk Damascene in Christ the Eternal Tao. His section in that book, "The Gospel According to Lao Tsu" is transformative. This book resonates powerfully with the teaching of St Silouan, Elder Sophrony and Fr Zacharias Zacharou on Christ "inverting the pyramid," placing himself at the very bottom of the pyramid. He dies raised up on the cross, but in doing so he goes to the lowest place.

[@mondopinion3777]

That is in Rene Girard's books too. And it is in Acts 17:6 -- an enraged accusation hurled against the evangelists.

[@brendonlake1522]

That comment from Jonathan about star trek being the thing new Atheists promised us and what we got was 'something darker' is very telling. People complain that the recent star trek movies are dark & the DC comics movies aren't like the shiny, bright Christopher Reeve superman movies but they don't seem to realize is that art imitates life and these movies are a mirror of the culture now.

[@Mik3xcellence]

Great conversation!!!