What Is A Mary Sue or a Gary Stu?

[@JUSTAROBOT_AKA_JAR]

Same Video but with the robot voice: kzbin.info/www/bejne/haOXfYmMibRsj8U

[@alfonix562]

*the better version

[@joshrzepka4139]

in opinion what He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named just be like Orochimaru towards said protagonist like super man to Lex Luthor like a character that falls from grace because of either good intention but twisted ambition i feel like it all ends up as a primal structure for example say the villain believed he was god or had good intention yet are destined for evil or jealously resentment.[edit realize i was asking there more towards building a character but what is character to begin with but i think you are either stirring up my desire to write something since this truly the umpteenth time you brought us up with something to chew like bubblegum to savor the elements of such topic

[@NerdXZ-pn4nt]

would you consider batman a gary sue?

[@eddieboston6540]

kirito isn't a gray stu he wins like five fights by himself and the rest he had help. in every sao arc kirito account from sao is used over and over again. in alo it is built off the old data of sao and kirito still had his account in the nerve gear. in gun gale his account was moved to gun gale online so kirito could help stop a murderer but in the most recent arc he started from scratch and still needed help. also kirito doesn't have a harem he has a girlfriend and only three girls in total like him. the rest are friends and one is his cousin who by the way didn't know kirito was her cousin kirigaya kazuto. you bring up little moments of kirito binging a bad ass and show those but not the many more times he gets his ass kicked, brought to near death, and die in game where he can die. he also has a real good personality. your just like everyone else who just likes to shit on sao and kirito. i can prove every gray stu moment you say kirito has can be explain.

[@adrianarodriguez9376]

You should read IDW Sonic comic because They write Amy as biggest Mary sue and made Strong female leader characters in there. Sally have to train to become leader of Freedom Fighters and have mistakes she made and while Amy is not train to leader the resistant with no mistakes. Plus copy characters from Archie.

[@thomaslacroix6011]

A Mary sue is a narrative back hole. Everything bends around them: rules, personalities, physics, logics, morality. Everything is about the Mary sue, connects to the Mary sue and can be solved by Mary sue. The Mary sue is the center of everything: every arc serves to praise the Mary sue, every character exists as lowly commoners basking in her glory. Every villain exists only to contrast the holiness of the Mary Sue and is defeated without sacrifice by the Mary Sue. The actions if the Mary sue are always just. The best way to see if a character is not a Mary sue is if the character gets an "ego check", basically getting into deep trouble by their own fault, experience true despair and is saved in extremis by an external force. That, or if the character makes a serious mistake, takes the blame without creating excuses, and has to atone for it.

[@rinyukiohara8178]

This is why I hate Mary Sue stories, nothing is interesting and everything links back to the Mary Sue. They could be five miles away and somehow whatever is happening is all about them. The other characters can’t have a life without her and that’s the worst.

[@poccripeardew4750]

100% agree! I think JAR sort of lost sight of that storytelling rule when making this video. Sure a lot of characters may be poorly written, but not every poorly written character is a mary sue.

[@youtubestudiosucks978]

@@poccripeardew4750 batman is a mary sue

[@emberfist8347]

@@youtubestudiosucks978 Except no he isn't. DC has plenty of stories exploring his flaws. In particular the lead-up to Infinite Crisis had DC's three flagship characters at each other's throats and Batman was easily the one who came the worst as his actions involved making an AI that would be Big Brother to Meta-Humans that then pulled a Skynet. Wonder Woman and Superman were better off as Diana's issue was justifable killing of a major villain and Superman was just he forgot his humanity or soemthing.

[@gethygethy]

The best description of Mary Sue, thank you! Character just having powers doesn't always make a sue. Poor writing is

[@purplepsyche4095]

Mary Sue/Gary Stu: a Character, (usually the main charater) that is perfect but their involvment lowers the quality of the story. Their perfectness keeps the story from intereacting with interesting concepts that the story builds up. In fact they sometimes out right ignore it to make the character look good by solving it instantly.

[@hellacoorinna9995]

Burning Ham

[@z-man1237]

*Facts!☝️*

[@mateiolteanu1916]

Ngl, Yen Sid from kingdom hearts is the exact definition of a Gary Stu.

[@williampearson6299]

James Bond, Ironman, Batman are Mary Sues

[@mattday7337]

@@williampearson6299 I think the idea of Mary/Gary stu in superhero media is entirely ridiculous

[@yanfei7782]

I acknowledge that Jotaro is overpowered, but star finger is really funny.

[@__-be1gk]

the Star Finger attachment is permanently on my Star Platinum figure

[@joshrzepka4139]

gundam g wing has that its called "burning shining finger"

[@yanfei7782]

@@__-be1gk Amazing.

[@TheItalianStallion825]

She really likes that move

[@SpringDavid]

@@TheItalianStallion825 D:

[@crisscrosszx]

my list of what makes a mary sue: 1) weak backstory 2) they're 4 times stronger than you'd thought based on the previous fight 3) flaws = 0 4) NEVER fails 5) if there's a centuries-long conflict or their group is in a _life or death_ situation that would kill everybody right now, they will solve it in 1.3 seconds 6) random power-up (or forbidden technique that faded out in history so nobody could recreate) pulled out of nowhere 7) they're never called out from their bullshit 8) literally only 1 guy/girl will oppose them 3 quarters of the show/movie. and the remaining quarter, that guy will fall in love or become their best buddy so they can face the actual villan we didn't even know existed, but was misteriously "always there" 9) "what would M.S. do in this situation?" or "we must find M.S.! we're useles.... i mean, yes, they're just 3 lizards and we're 50 armed, trained soldiers with unlimited laser beam weapons. but w/o M.S., we can't do this!!"

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

It’s hilarious how your comment describes not only Korra from Legend of Korra, but every female character in Western entertainment since the 2010’s to now.

[@kingworldadventures]

Moonwatcher from wof

[@MerusotemMezz]

9) Basically Sonic Force's plot.

[@crisscrosszx]

@@MerusotemMezz and Harry Potter

[@crisscrosszx]

@@MerusotemMezz literally every student has been taught the gun spell (abra cadabra or something) yet nobody uses it agains voldemorth's army

[@kingme1313]

for jotaro he is mostly a gary stue but ... his fights in egypt do focus primarily on strategy (for the most part) such as both D'arbys and DIO. while DIO get's punched out, his stand is still one of the strongest at that point, where he gets hundreds of knives thrown at him

[@infernobreath2998]

Also the yellow temperance fight showed jotaro completely beat in every way so he had to think outside the box

[@kingme1313]

@@infernobreath2998 also this XD

[@Cri_Jackal]

And the fight against Steely Dan subverts Jotaro's entire character.

[@kingme1313]

@@Cri_Jackal also very true XD

[@melindabolding5601]

@@Cri_Jackal how? From what I’ve seen, Jotaro was just acting just as he would in the previous parts.

[@Mars_over_seer]

“Batman Who Laughs,” is a bad example of a villain sue. No matter what the characters do, he reveals it was my plan all along or some sch tick. That he’s an agent of chaos, and exist to put everyone as disarray. Moriarty from Sherlock (Written by Moffat), is a possible example but I haven’t watched the show in ages. So let me know if I’m wrong. In the show, he gets the jump of Sherlock several times, and even after his death, they keep bringing up the possibility that he’ll come back. Most of the antagonist later in the series, Irene Adler and Sherlock’s sister is due to Moriarty involvement. Edit: I meant Moriarty from the Moffat show.

[@WolffyRay117]

I think DC just over use the batman who laughs is all

[@KRAZYKentGamer]

Honestly I think Moriarty could be a good example because even in the original novels, Moriarty was always five steps ahead of Holmes and everytime when Sherlock gets a victory, Moriarty is like “All according to plan.”

[@f-22raptorlandingzone30]

Moriarty isn't really comparable though since it probably takes someone constantly 3 steps ahead in a realistic setting to challenge a character like Sherlock Holmes. You can't really say that for comic book superheroes because you have to one-up so many things until it just gets ridiculous

[@hardondong3550]

@@WolffyRay117 They really do he's everywhere.

[@Hanmacx]

It's a Xanatos Gambit Named after the guy from Disney Gargoyles

[@Legomicroman]

i only have one requirement for a character to be a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu: they bend the plot to their will. as in: -in-universe rules don't apply to them, when it's convenient. -they have just the biggest luck in the world, when it's convenient -even without powers, they get everything they want without any drawbacks. case in point: Bella Swan is a much bigger Mary-Sue than your average 2010 Sonic OC.

[@WolffyRay117]

As tod Howard said "it just works"

[@rinyukiohara8178]

All I hear is Onion boy’s stories when I read that.

[@CJCroen1393]

@@rinyukiohara8178 100% perfect example right there.

[@cordyceps182]

Absolutely. It also fits a few of the criteria JAR mentioned. The Jerk Sue SHOULD be called out by the characters, but the Mary Sue-ness warps them into tolerating such behavior. The villain sue SHOULD have finally been defeated, but the Mary Sue-ness reveals this was all according to plan. Etcetera etcetera. While power levels are usually a clear indication of how much of a Mary Sue a character is, they're not concrete.

[@youtubestudiosucks978]

@@cordyceps182 batman is a mary sue

[@tgiacin435]

In all fairness, James and Lily, his parents were top students when they were at hogwarts. As to why Quirrell died the way he did, he had Voldemort attached to him, and it was only the bond of blood that kept Harry alive in that encounter. I can’t watch the movies without thinking of how much they actually cut from the books

[@Treasure_hunter_21]

Quirell died due to his link to dark lord on whom was activated Lilys ancient magic.

[@Oueenazolatigressgina]

Yeah, the Hermione, Ron, Harry, Ginny in the books were much better characters, most of the good characters were butchered in the movies

[@emberfist8347]

Except that wasn't cut from the books. That explanation was in the movie.

[@tgiacin435]

@@emberfist8347 Dumbledore only said that it was love that saved him, other than that, Dumbledore doesn’t explain why he left Harry on the Dursley’s doorstep knowing that he was gonna spend 10 years being mistreated by them, that the only way the bond of blood remained in effect was so long as Harry could call the Dursley’s house home, even if he was their once a year.

[@emberfist8347]

@@tgiacin435 Well the explanation for why Harry was left with the Dursleys wasn't given until the Fifth book. You were referencing the first book.

[@323starlight]

JAR: Jotaro, is just an asshole. Jotaro: *shows legit concern when his mom was looking sick prior to her collapse.*, *didn't care about going after Dio until his mom's life was put in jepordy.* Me: Nuance JAR.

[@alfa01spotivo]

lol jotaro is far from a gary stu

[@icecreamoman288]

@@alfa01spotivo you can't lie, him getting time stop was a Gary Stu moment.

[@icecreamoman288]

@@alfa01spotivo and his only one tbh

[@CapsirusPrime]

@@icecreamoman288 “It’s the same type of stand as Star Platinum” Yeah, him getting the time stop was such an ass pull, but I still liked it

[@S-treme]

Most of time jotaro is an asshole

[@daltondaily1540]

I've always considered a Mary Sue as a character who actively warps the story around them to make themselves look better. If you go back to the original Star Treck fanfic that the term originated from, one of the biggest issues was that other characters just were useless so the original Mary Sue could shine. If rules of the setting get broken, if characters completely change, and if the universe seems to bend so that one character takes center stage, then that's how you know you've got a grade A Mary Sue.

[@ShadyDoorags]

Like I said in the last video, I consider a Mary Sue to be someone whom derives from an idea that the writer doesn't want to be properly challenged, which can manifest itself in multiple different ways. A Mary Sue, by definition, is a bad character when it comes to stories because the rules of the story bend itself to their needs, making the story less believable. It doesn't mean people can't like the character, but objectively, they are bad for stories making them bad characters. You can have a story with as much ludicrous logic as you want, but that logic has to be consistent or the audience won't be able to immerse themselves. Mary Poppins is an example I love to use. She's practically perfect in every way and a witch that literally controls reality, but she's not a Mary Sue. At the end of the day, she has to leave the children she loves so much and they basically forget about her and everything she did for them, because the point of Mary Poppins is to create a family that doesn't need a Mary Poppins. With all of her power, this is an in-universe rule that Mary Poppins herself doesn't change because it's a testament to her character's will and vulnerability. If this rule were to change, it would be purely to make Mary Poppins happy and nothing else. Some of the examples given I disagree with because a character in that department doesn't necessarily go against the rules of the story written. A "villain sue", for example, usually furthers the rules the universe has, showing what kind of lifestyle it takes to acquire such power. Not that a villain sue can't be a Mary Sue, but I wouldn't even say it's a type of sue in general, just a role that sometimes overlaps. Video games are a different beast because the main focus of a video game is the gameplay and sometimes being a Mary Sue enhances the gameplay even if it might harm the story. I'm glad you showed Doom, because that's the perfect example. Another good example is pretty much every Bethesda game, where you're the chosen one whose good at everything they try. This, however, can still be hurtful to a game that focuses a lot on story. Some people had problems with Skyward Sword, for example, because Link being the chosen one was taken a step too far. In that game, all of Link's actions were planned to the letter by a goddess some millennia ago, so it never felt like he was accomplishing anything on his own.

[@youtubestudiosucks978]

Na, na, na, na, batman

[@emberfist8347]

@@youtubestudiosucks978 Nope he doesn't the criteria.

[@nicolas._.2294]

​@@youtubestudiosucks978 I think he just have an impossible huge amount of plot armor, that just all

[@youngbounty1394]

One definition I’ve stuck with was that a Mary-Sue is someone so perfect that not even the story or plot ever effects the character. One example is Bella Swan from Twilight. She may not be super powerful (until Breaking Dawn), but she always gets out of every conflict without a struggle. Most of the time she has everyone solve her problems for her, she gets her way and she never has to face any consequences for her actions, because they just resolve themselves.

[@RarutoUchiha2]

Villain Sues are just great imo: Madara, Aizen, DIO, Kars, Gilgamesh, etc. Normally people wouldn't enjoy characters like them if they were the protagonist, but then you have Light Yagami, which most people enjoy as a character. People generally just don't like characters that are boring, even if they are Mary Sues. In a lot of fanfiction the main characters are Mary Sues, if not outright self-inserts of the author. And I'm talking about fanfics that a lot of people enjoy, not most and certainly not all, but still a lot. A story doesn't have to be "objectively" good to be enjoyable. Sometimes people just want a power fantasy wish fulfillment for escapism.

[@arrowflint22official8]

Kars is a godtier villain sue. I fucking love him

[@Mars_over_seer]

I think for villain-protagonist, not sure if that’s the right term, the antagonist opposing them have to be competent or just as interesting. This is why I think more people felt the show dropped in quality after L stepped down to focus on his protégés.

[@Nephalem2002]

Madara is a fucking chad. Neil Kaplan was the best english voice for him.

[@lanahex]

And even when it comes to self-inserts, if done right, SI fics can be enjoyable. If the author has enough self-awareness about themselves to acknowledge that they have flaws, they wouldn't be ultra powerful compared to the other characters, and that not every single main character would like them/become part of their harem, then I think self-inserts can be good. You just have to keep a balance of "relevant to the plot" and "not a god."

[@Nephalem2002]

@@lanahex Depends how the harem is done(like HS DxD for example) but yes I agree.

[@skull_scrimmage3953]

In Jotaro's defense, he has a lot of moments where he DOES strategize a bit more. But Stardust Crusaders also goes on for a decent amount of time- not all his moments can be perfect. and also, Jonathan has quite a few ass-pulls himself. I thinks that's just part of being a JoJo protagonist.

[@CapsirusPrime]

I personally don’t think Jotaro is a Gary Stu. But there is one Jojo I think could be classified as a Gary Stu… Giorno Giovanna. He’s the son of Dio Brando, one of the strongest stand users ever, unlike Crazy Diamond he can heal himself even going so far as to create extra limbs and even CREATE LIFE! And when he got the requiem arrow, he basically became stand Jesus.

[@thestalost8486]

I think Giorna suffers a little bit of Magical Genius Syndrome. When a character is supposed to be a genius, but in reality they just magically know the answer to all of their problems. The perfect example being when he determined how Grateful Death's ability worked on body heat, using a random trivia fact and, would you know it, he was right. I don't think he is overpowered, as he is usually forced into a support role in the majority of his fights. One fight I will say it was bullshit was the one against Bruno, when he beat a mafia's assassin who killed people since he was a kid, despite being the first time Giorno uses his stand against another person. And despite becoming Stand Jesus by the end of the story, everything was build up to it. Is not like he suddenly learned he is the incarnation of Jesus and became all powerful. He had to fight for it. And yes, Giorno is chosen by fate to obtain the requiem arrow. But fate was a big motive in part 5 and I think the author handled it well enough.

[@Cri_Jackal]

But Giorno being Jesus was entirely the point, Part 5 in its entirety is basically a modern reimagining of the story of Jesus, Fugo was even supposed to betray the gang and fight against them as a Judas stand-in before that plot point was dropped. Not to mention that Dio and Diavolo are the Italian words for God and Devil. And Giorno being the son of both Dio and Jonathan, the two being fused as one being during Giorno's conception, is kind of a nod to the Old Testament and New Testament versions of God somehow being the same person despite being moral opposites.

[@micharosa6201]

Well the thing that makes those two intresting and not a gary stu by many is the fact that in case of Jotaro 1.him being ass can be understandable, because if i would choose between him and the girls i would rather choose him, as for his mother granted she is kinda weird with her happy go lucky to the point of annoyance and what is the 2 point, at one point he is called out by his Grandpa Joseph who is a good character and last also because the others have their moments to shine. The same can be said about Giorno, with few elements such as Abbacio being in disagrement with the former for most part.

[@signlessnyx]

Duh he's the son on dio who's destined to fight Diavolo

[@raikasha8152]

Giorno being Dio's son doesn't really come into play in Giorno's story in a way that tangibly benefits him. Giorno isn't even as physically strong as someone like Young Joseph in terms of muscle despite being the son of Jonathan Punchstar himself and Dio Roadroller Brando. Giorno even got showed up by Koichi when he tried mugging him and needed the latter's help in their fight against Black Sabbath. Giorno himself even admitted that Bruno held back on them in their fight. Not to mention Giorno's organ recreation takes time such as shown in the Trish fight and there are plenty more stand battles where Giorno and the crew only won cause teamwork/the times Giorno got bodied and took backseat. So he's far from perfect. Even with the stand arrow buff cause Giorno is still his human flawed self. Even if he is incredibly powerful to due his stand.

[@iceyflowergamer4474]

Mary Sue: When a writer becomes too lazy to make a character interesting.

[@WolffyRay117]

True

[@fatherpucci8170]

What if they just making Mary sue for parody?

[@iceyflowergamer4474]

@@fatherpucci8170 then that’s an exception. But any non parodying way of making a Mary Sue is lazy writing.

[@fatherpucci8170]

@@iceyflowergamer4474 So Lobo is fine?

[@iceyflowergamer4474]

@@fatherpucci8170 I have no idea who you’re talking about sadly.

[@darktigersharkmax4432]

My definition is the same as yours but with the additional rule that if a character can do something amazing for no reason that is unexplainable in their universe. Like how Rey used sith force lighting even though it's a very powerful dark side power learned after rigorous training and skill yet she used it when she got mad and even though she isn't a dark side force user.

[@oponentgull186others4]

To be fair, that’s likely just something she inherited from her father.

[@moredortor]

Hermione (in the movie version, not the book) is very close to being a mary-sue in my opinion. She can do everything: perform the best magic, defeat Ron in one second, have a huge knowledge about the wizarding world, and even know what Mudblood means, despite being a muggle-born. She is also brave and protects Harry. The actress who plays her is so good and cute that most people will ignore the problem, but she really has no weakness.

[@MasterDK913]

I'd like to point out one of my very own Mary/Gary Stu's that I recently discovered. BYLETH. From Fire Emblem: Three Houses. Starts out more powerful than the others, only gets more powerful while being more powerful than the others, wields the power of a holy sword and the literal GODDESS of their world lives inside him/her, literally every powerful object in the game the characters want to give to him/her. None of the trials and tribulation he/she goes through slows him/her down or negatively affects him/her in any way, and lastly, what is his/her goal? To get MORRRRRE power! xD You could argue it depends on how you wanna play the game. But Byleth is still gonna be on top lol I just always laughed when you could not only choose to level your students up but your own damn self. Like for what reason? Byleth has literally no weaknesses and you can literally win an entire battle with him alone! I know cause I've done it! Lol

[@Mars_over_seer]

I can see the point in this. At least with Robin they come off less like a Gary/Mary Sue in their supports. Robin has more dialogue then Byleth in the first chapter alone, and shown to have flaws. Virion is shown to be better tactician then Robin, They make mistakes in Emmeryn’s rescue, and even gets possessed by Grima in the alternate time lines.

[@adrianadamsson6757]

I would agree, the game definitely sucks Byleth off way too much to the point it is ridiculous. It's why in my eyes any of the three lords(+Rhea) is a far more compelling protagonist than Byleth. While they are all powerful, they have massive flaws that makes them feel alot more human and more relatable. Dimitri and Edelgard especially are amazing, both of them a subversion of the character trope they represent. And they sure as hell don't get this praise from me because they are perfect, it is their flaws that makes them relatable.

[@Cri_Jackal]

I have little interest in Fire Emblem, but the idea of it I got from information about it was that Byleth, despite being the player character, played the role of a commander accurately, giving out orders to those with actual physical power, with their own power being their ability to train and lead their troops, rather than right battles on their own. Having learned more about the game from second hand sources, I think the gsme would've been much more interesting if it had gone with this approach, with Byleth as the prophet for a god leading their people.

[@adrianadamsson6757]

@@Cri_Jackal Yeah, they are the commander, though other characters reliance on them kind of gets to the point where the literal emperor of Adrestia takes orders from them in battle, and said emperor does not give a crap about them supposedly being chosen by the goddess. That and the fact that the war effort seem to have made no progress in 5 years in their absence and when Byleth returns they win the war in a matter of months. Not meaning to bash Crimson Flower here as it is my favorite route. Byleth's relationship with Edelgard is quite sweet. But it is undeniable that being more influencial than the actual monarch of a nation and single handedly wins a war is definatly Gary Stu-ish. Still, I would reccomend Three Houses, in my opinion it is the best game in the series.

[@HighPhoenix1754]

Isn't Blyeth supposed to be a mercenary turned professor though?

[@Nomadman903]

Gary/Mary Sue for me is someone that bends the rules of the universe in a story to his/her advantage without making sense or even interesting. You can have powerful characters, but they have to follow the universe rules. Villains can do that, but it creates conflict and tension in the story, which it can make good or bad if executed poorly. But I say "rules" are the one important thing in the story, and Sues are the ones breaking it without consequences.

[@sunbeames]

JAR: I really can't stand those freaking Gundams. ItsaGundam: Wait what?

[@AkemiHoshi532]

I've had talks about what defines a Mary Sue with some of my friends, and I think collectively we agree that a Mary Sue/ Gary Stu is someone who never suffers consequences from their actions. It really takes away the relatability factor for me personally. If the character can do whatever they want with no consequences I don't relate, and this can go into jerk sue territory like you've mentioned as well as 'oh I am so good and pure friendship cures all' territory too. Having characters struggle and prevail to me is what makes a really well written character, but when they seem to just get away with it cuz... plot armor or whatever, it really makes me roll my eyes. Another great video JAR! Thank you for sharing~

[@espurrseyes42]

Does the character have a meaningful, major flaw that causes them to be imperfect in a way that severely affects them, be it in combat or with their relationships with other? Is this fault actually showcased and called out as a negative thing rather than being brushed aside by other characters (Amber's toxicity)? Does the world seemingly revolve around them/Does it seem like the world and everyone in it bends over backwards so that the character can win or be right? These are my criteria for Mary Sues. I don't consider even early Korra to be a Mary Sue, as despite being "OP" (not really), her hotheaded, rash personality often got her into trouble, be it running in to challenge Tarloc and getting kidnapped by him (and almost kidnapped by Amon who tracked her and Tarloc down) to running in to deal with her uncle's plans only to get incapacitated by a spirit to her REALLY bad relationship with Mako. She also had PTSD from dealing with Amon that she still seemingly had near the end of Book 3. She's got all the power, yet is constantly taking Ls. I DO consider Caulifla from Dragonball Super to be a Mary Sue. She masters SSJ through some tingly-back nonsense, manages to pull out SSJ2 while trying to quell berserk Kale, she's able to hold her own against Goku despite having limited fighting experience, and manages to talk down berserk Kale and cause her to master her bootleg Broly powers so they can push Goku to go SSG before fusing into Kefla (who might as well just be Caulifla with Kale's powers) and pushing Goku to use UI again. She doesn't have any real character flaws, and Goku, in the middle of a serious life or death tournament, was using his time to teach her how to use SSJ, helping her reunlock SSJ2, showing her SSJ3, and overall treating their fight like a training session for her until he was forced to get serious. She also doesn't really suffer any real losses. She starts running into trouble in the ToP? Kale goes SSJ and saves her. God Goku almost KOs the girls? Good thing Champa gave them Potaras to cheat and fuse. She only went down because GOKU took her down, and that after he was getting beat on even with Blue Kaioken and forced into UI, where she still managed to get in some scratches on him and show that Goku's use of UI still wasn't good enough. Everything about Caulifla just screams Mary Sueper Saiyan.

[@D-Havoc]

Korra's a Mary Sue, even in early seasons. Despite are outward personality flaws, others brush then aside and narratively they are even framed as justified if not flipping the victim of her outbursts as being in the wrong instead. That's straight up bending logic and sensibility to her side. Even with getting "humbled" by Toph (a fan favorite), I could help but remember that his bit h mastered Earthbending, Waterbending and Firebending so much so that it should be inconceivable to have her have a hard time in those fields. But I suppose the writers needed to retroactively reign the power in and it still falls flat to me because of these to dissonant traits. Hell, she learned Airbending without Tenzen. She was able to do it in the heat of the moment. And when she lose bending, the ghosts of previous Avatars can just fix this for her at the end of the episode. Anticlimactic and no real tension.

[@WackyModder84]

JAR, I love you, but you got quite a few things wrong here: First of all, Villain Sues. A Villain Sue is when you have a Villain who is so disgustingly overpowered for no real reason and is also inconsistent with the story's power scaling at the same time compared to everyone else; Other villains present in the story included. The BIGGEST Example of what I personally consider to be the Worst Villain Sue I've Ever Seen would be SOUSUKE AIZEN from Bleach. Aizen was someone who just got so unbelievably powerful for seemingly no reason to the point where Ichigo was literally forced into asspulling a whole new form just to defeat him in combat. He just kept getting strong and stronger in an unrealistic and inconsistent matter throughout the course of Bleach, and we still haven't even seen his Bankai yet, meaning he hasn't even shown his true power to this day! Me and all of my IRL friends call him "Captain Broken" because of this. Secondly, Anti-Sues. An Anti-Sue is someone who is the EXACT-OPPOSITE of a Mary Sue. Someone who is about as Imperfect and Flawed as you can possibly get. They're wrong about almost everything. They're on everyone's shitlist. They always get into trouble. They tend to have bad attitudes towards everyone and everything that happens around them. They tend to be highly unintelligent and reckless. And yeah, you get the point. Anti-Sues are the ones who have the exact opposite effect that a Mary Sue does, where instead of everyone wanting to be them, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY wants to be them due to how insufferable and unlikeable they are due to this. Having one """FLAW""" just to get people away from the Mary Sue label, 99% of the time doesn't even work. This is extremely true with Shonen Schlock Mary Sue Characters, where they would usually have their main flaw being that they're very stupid and clumsy, but everything else about them is OP as hell. That is NOWHERE NEAR enough to get the label off of them. it's just a vain attempt by the writers to get people off their backs, when it almost always doesn't work. Third: What's wrong with Gundams, bro? Them's fightin' words right there. lol

[@Unapologeticweeb]

So an anti Stu is basically osamu from world trigger

[@magikphoenix140]

Also,with villain sues,you can tell the heroes were nerfed for them to win.That or they pull this tragic backstory thing and the characters actually use that to excuse their actions and maybe even redeem them, despite the fact that the villain literally killed people.

[@nicolas._.2294]

Actually lila from miraculous is a Mary Sue and she isn't distinguished overpowered

[@nicolas._.2294]

​@@magikphoenix140 they aren't nerf if it's a hero mary/Gary sue against a villian mary/Gary sue😊

[@nicolas._.2294]

Never heard of an anti sue but I an happy to learn more

[@rushalias8511]

A Mary sue is a character who warps the rules of the world around for no other reason other than the writer said so. They would rarely be punished if they did something wrong, over praised if they did something right. They are the only ones who can solve the problem with other character just existing to praise them. And above all else they remove the narrative tension of the story because you know they are going to beat everything in there path without issue and without using any reasonably clever wits and strategy

[@youtubestudiosucks978]

Na, na, na, na, batman

[@emberfist8347]

@@youtubestudiosucks978 No Batman is quite the opposite.

[@shizukagozen777]

@@youtubestudiosucks978 Harry Potter.

[@moredortor]

@@shizukagozen777 80% of Harry power come from other people help so I don't think so, he is the opposite of mary-sue

[@yuniji5505]

The biggest fear when I'm writing a story is making a Gary or Mary sue

[@12DAMDO]

"i can't stand Gundams" that's probably because they're humans in robot suites and are therefore doing robot-face

[@valkari1278]

my definition would be: a character who doesnt have a reason for being powerful or strong (or a flimsy one) but is anyways, a character who is praised even when they are in the wrong (or those who dont ever do anything wrong in the first place)

[@WatcherPrime]

Mary Sue: A character by which the plot is not being driven but rather dragged toward them via a gravitational pull with the equivalent of a Black Hole drawing light into its vortex. It is akin to the universe bending and outright breaking its own rules to cater to this character for no discernable reason beyond the following terms: "They are just that Awesome or Gifted." "They are flawless and correct all the time."

[@bryanmerel]

And if ever they have flaws, it's never detrimental to the in universe conflict eitherways. Aka Flaws For the sake of having a Flaw.

[@magikphoenix140]

@@bryanmerel and their flaws never get acknowledged

[@Simpsonsfan1011]

I don’t think Jotaro is much of a Gary Stu as while he may be one in the early parts of Stardust Crusaders there are many times he basically gets his ass kicked a lot and some fights had to require him actually using strategy or relying on others. I feel Giorno or Joseph (in part 2) have more traits befitting of a Gary Stu.

[@ChairyCrasher]

Wouldn't be a jerk-sue, but likeable?

[@CapsirusPrime]

Especially Giorno. Don’t get me wrong, I like him, he’s a cool character… but he basically became Stand Jesus and took over passione as a 15 year old.

[@phantom-X2086]

@@CapsirusPrime for real, imo, Giorno is probably the biggest Gary Stu in JoJo, that I know of anyway

[@Loudshark_]

@Capsirus and remember this, it’s happened all over a week. A damn week. I bet that Giorno participated in a speedrun

[@Simpsonsfan1011]

@@ChairyCrasher Not really since Jotaro’s attitude is called out by the other Crusaders on occasion (mainly Joseph)

[@JohnSmith-vk4ex]

"Jotaro isn't capable of complex strategy" Did we watch the same show JAR?

[@toadsagejacob7896]

"Jotaro is a Gary Stu" - I... I agree with this, but ONLY during Part 3. Part 4 and onwards, I would argue that while still being kind of OP, he isn't the Gary Stu he once was.

[@mavikartal7775]

Jotaro is a lot more complex than first seems. Yeah he called his mom a b!+ch but he got called out by his grandpa the second he uttered the word Star Finger was a deus ex machina but his simple Stand forces him to come up with strategies like resisting the urge of beating Steely Dan to protect his grandpa, lie about his name to Egna on the notebook and stop his own heart so Dio thinks he is dead. It is also heavily implied that his deliquency stems from absent father. Also like Superman, he is someone to look up to, not be friends with.

[@realtimberstalker]

I feel like Critical Drinker defined Mary sues perfectly. They are overpowered: this power does not come from something earned, they just have it. They usually dont meet too much struggle and everything comes easy for them. They must be perfect(or almost): they almost always pick the correct choice. they usually have a perfect voice of reason, they are usually goody two shoes(however they can be obnoxious and terrible so long as none of the other characters recognize it). They are loved by every good character, and hated by every bad one: Mary sues cannot be hated by any good characters, because hating or disliking the mary sue is a sign for an evil character. If a good character some how does dislikes some aspect of the mary sue, they are always portrayed is in the wrong Optional They are quirky: Having one or a few quirks is a way of saying, see, my character isnt perfect, they cant do this one specific thing They are a self insert: The writer chooses to portray themselves as the perfect character They are a mouthpiece for the Writer: They will spout the political beliefs of the writer with no opposition, or only strawmen as opposition. Since they are perfect they are obviously right, and this is reinforced by the lack of opposing critique of these things (ex. fossil fuels are bad so we should abolish them and then humans will make a perfect society) Superman and Harry potter are obvious Mary sues under these guidelines: Superman is literally perfect, and Harry meets the guidelines(Is overpowered, always picks the right path, is liked by the good characters and disliked by bad ones) Anakin and the video game guy are not: Anakin is disliked by practically everyone, rarly makes the right choice, and he isnt even that overpowered. Yes he has the midiclorians, but they dont really do anything with that in the first movie(other than the pod racing and flying, but he is established to have experience with pod racing from before the movie began and flying a ship cant be too far off) and in the other movies he constantly looses even after training, and the video game guy spent a long time working on his skills Notice how neither of the examples i gave were women. This is because being a woman has nothing to do with whether or not a character is or isnt a mary sue, its just that women being mary sues are more common because they are used to mask bad writing by saying, "You clearly dont like her because she's a 'strong female character'TM "

[@harlannguyen4048]

Superman and Harry Potter still had to learn how to use their powers. So I don't count them.

[@magikphoenix140]

EXACTLY!They love the argument that “YoU jUsT dOnT lIkE sTrOnG wOmEn” When,as a woman myself,it’s not that we don’t like strong women,but want a strong woman who’s actually human.We want one who’s realistic.One with flaws,mistakes,etc.What makes them a strong character isn’t even the lack of flaws or mistakes,it’s the fact that have flaws and make mistakes but make up for them and learn from them in order to grow as a character.We want them to feel like a CHARACTER,and half the time they don’t really feel like characters,they just feel like something that was made by the writers to pander to certain audiences or express the writers own political opinions.

[@MetaKnight964]

What if the character aquired power by accident?

[@realtimberstalker]

​@@MetaKnight964 Generally falls into the "didnt earn it" category, but it depends on how the story handles it. When i say "power," i don't mean the inherent ability to do something, like how in Avatar: The Last Airbender, Aang, can technically bend all four elements from the start because he is the avatar, but because he doesn't know how yet, it doesn't count.

[@zeroxenoverse9251]

Sometimes perfectly describes any anime/manga at times.

[@katiekksparks4643]

To be honest, I think Giorno Giovanna is more of a Gary Stu than Jotaro Kujo. Though I’m not sure how far you are in JoJo.

[@internal1825]

I agree

[@internal1825]

He just finds the enemy's ability so easily

[@dummyyogurt5375]

@@internal1825 yeah, while jotaro often had to endure quite a beating before being able to figure out how to beat an opponent, Giorno just figures it out by getting the conclusion from a very minimal amount of evidence.

[@internal1825]

@@dummyyogurt5375 my man

[@CrazyAlienLady051]

Basically according to the internet and critics, it’s pretty much a character who barely has any flaws and has nearly every character wrapped around their fingers bending over backwards for them. A lot of people use to call Bloom from Winx Club a Mary Sue. There was even people calling Steven from Steven Universe a Gary Stu.

[@youtubestudiosucks978]

Obliviously batman is the biggest mary sue

[@emberfist8347]

@@youtubestudiosucks978 No he is the exact opposite.

[@n0ttomuch65]

Steven could be considered Gary Stu at this point, he has most OP powers, powers that nobody else has and has reddemed space nazis

[@CrazyAlienLady051]

@@n0ttomuch65 honestly I can see why people consider Steven a Gary Stu. His MOTHER was a diamond, Pearl, Garnet, and Amethyst risked getting poofed and or shattered trying to protect him, Connie was willing to die for him, lol even Holly Blue Agate said that all the diamonds cared about was him. Same thing for Bloom from winx club. She was the keeper of something so powerful, it created a whole dimension thus dubbing her “Alfea’s most powerful fairy”, her friends and family practically bent over backwards to keep her happy, season 2 and 3 of the show plus the movies was centered around her. They even had a transformation named after her in season 6. So in away, I can see why people would call these characters sues/ stus.

[@n0ttomuch65]

@@CrazyAlienLady051 Funny I never thought of Bloom as marry sue as she just had tendency to make a lot of mess that she had to clean up. I think of her as just supper OP chosen one like Anakin (but Anakin made larger mess with less power)

[@MasterDK913]

You finally brought up Kirito! Thank you! Lol My sentiments exactly. I love how in the pilot, when everyone was revealed as their real world selves and not their avatars, Kirito barely changed appearance xD

[@aureliodeprimus8018]

Considering how average he looks, it is just plain possible for him making a character using default apperance. I think there are better arguments for him being a Stu.

[@MasterDK913]

@@aureliodeprimus8018 Oh I know, that wasn't an argument for him being a Stu, I just wanted to point out how funny that was to me lol

[@aureliodeprimus8018]

@@MasterDK913 Ok, my bad.

[@eddieboston6540]

@@aureliodeprimus8018 not really because he isn't one

[@cuthalion4281]

@@eddieboston6540 yes, he is. He randomly gets a super overpowered unique trait. He's somehow much higher level than most other people around him despite having time to mess around with people much lower level instead of power farming all the time. He one-shots almost everything. The health regeneration scene (the pvp balance is broken so he can look cool). The one time he actually lost, his opponent was literally cheating. He somehow wills himself back to life for a few seconds, breaking the rules of the game (deus ex machina universe rule bending is a classic Sue trait), in the final fight. He pretty much soloes almost all the boss fights shown. Pretty much anyone who goes against him for any reason is shown as either evil, psychotically evil, or stupid. He gets the fastest romantic relationship speedrun I think I've ever seen. Asuna is supposedly also very powerful, but the anime can never show her outdoing him (even when she saves him, he saves her). All this is in the first arc (admittedly the only one I've watched). I could go on.

[@fgjjdgb3949]

The whole problem with this type of character, in my opinion, this character will eventually bore the viewer if there are no cons behind him, if he did not go through a difficult stage of preparation, if everything is given to him easily.

[@ShineDark]

Honestly, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve grown to desire to be like Superman more and more, and like Batman less and less.

[@ArachnidYouth]

Thanks to these Mary/Gary Sue/Stu videos I can fix whatever issues my oc has. Thanks Jar!

[@jonathansarmiento1739]

I think what makes Mary sue and Gary stu's so polarizing is that they could be a number of things. So at times, it's hard to identify what is and isn't a Mary sue.

[@demetriusadams1903]

I remember watching a scene of Justice League Dark: Apokoypse War. In that movie Superman was tortured and humiliated by Darksied. After reaching Earth, He saw Raven about to commit suicide and before she stabbed herself she gripped her hand and comforted her. That is what Superman should be.

[@MetaKnight964]

I wouldn't call someone as unlucky as Harry Potter a mary sue. Also he took down an evil wizard by touching him only because of something his mom gave him.

[@matityaloran9157]

Exactly.

[@moredortor]

I agree, it makes more sense that he survived because of the help of adults and his friends, rather than winning the battle alone when he was only 11.

[@wildlock1552]

Jotaro is a marry sue, but I still like his character, he becomes more social and nice through the series

[@kingmystery8425]

Part 6 remove the mary sue part of jotaro,dont worry,araki nerf him too

[@wildlock1552]

@@kingmystery8425 Glad to hear it, can't wait to see part 6 next month, unfortunately, I did see a few spoilers from thumbnails about the manga

[@AmitCinematicUniverse]

I honestly wish I was more like Superman in more ways than just having his powers; I want to see the good in people before the bad, having no desire to hurt others, and help people whenever I can.

[@matteomastrodomenico1231]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot JAR was bigoted against Gundams. I hope he doesn't get canceled for this...

[@TrueAterLupus]

Fun Mary Sue fact: In "The Saga of Tanya the Evil" there is a mary sue .. named Mary Sue (Sioux). The writers were having fun with that im sure.

[@lisboah]

Yep. I hate her so much. Being X must be slamming his head so much on a table for choosing her. The girl is a complete idiot, but she can't suffer for her actions because she's so powerful.

[@masteryoraerasante]

Oh Jotaro was definitely a Gary Stu in part 3. Everything he does in Part 3 goes his way, and some is used again later. Although I guess using the Poker Game as a sign of his future OP power and his solution to the fight against the killer car to win the final battle was VERY creative, he is still a MAJOR Sue there. So in a way his reappearences in parts 4, where his powers weakened from disuse and he is forced to be more of a detective, and part 6, where he is outright defeated near the beginning due to the villain knowing how his powers worked and having a proper strategy, are not just a bridge between parts (Josuke being the son of Joseph after an affair and Jolene being her daughter) but also an attempt to un-suefy him?

[@barry3351]

Jotaro isn't a Gary Stu, he just has that trademark Joestar luck.

[@Wyck1349]

Awesome today’s my birthday and this shows up in my recommended best gift ever

[@colorado_er0490]

Happy bday

[@iceyflowergamer4474]

Happy bday

[@Wyck1349]

@@colorado_er0490 danks

[@KryocorruptEian]

My birthday today too

[@CB7368]

Happy birthday. 🎂🎈🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@marshallseldon4200]

When it comes to video game characters being Mary Sues, I think it is kind of complicated since it usually comes to what the player does in the game.

[@KraziShadowbear]

Just for those who don't know, "Mary-Sue" is only the "female" version of the "Warps reality and the plot around them just by being there" type of character. "Gary Stu" is the "male" version. It doesn't rely on only one gender, it relies of the CHARACTER. "Mary Sue" is just used more often because writers think that they can get away with the "diversity" their character brings just by being a women. We also see that the most in recent "Mary Sue" media. (Rey, etc...)

[@nicolas._.2294]

That what I hate, there are a lot of Mary Sue in the current media....but that doesn't mean every girl caracters is one and this made also people toxic, like I watched some caracters this days that lots of people were naming Mary Sue and hating them when no condition of a Mary Sue is applied to them, but just becs they were literally doing something or even helping they were girl boss or Mary Sue like literally if that gurl wouldn't do something and just stay there people were hate on her for no doing anything but when she does something then again hate her, and then there are some Gary Stu caracters that nobody is hating or complaining about......like when it's a girl that it's not even a Mary Sue people are complaining but at Gary stu everything is fine and I hate this. And it's the writers fault for creating toxic caracters and now toxic fans name every female caracter a Mary Sue or something else and when it comes to Gary stu everything is fine

[@eagan_1902]

In a video game your supposed to be the center of the universe Laughs in dark souls

[@Inrezairo]

I want to add a potential Mary-Sue that I think gets overlooked ... Mary Poppins I know that will get hate for that due to the negativity around the label but she even tells us that she is "practically perfect in every way" The laws of the world bend to her will with amazing feats of magic and she is adored by almost everyone and she is the main character. So either she must be thrown into the Mary-Sue mixer based on some current definitions or those definitions need tightening to ensure she is excluded. I think a clause to say the character is not a representation of a pure ideal rather than a complete/real person ... Mary Poppins is pure childhood wonder and magic. Superman (at least in old stories) is pure moral good and those Villain-Sues can now be reps of pure evil.

[@nicolas._.2294]

I agree

[@Khanmanlol]

You know what I think would be an interesting subversion of the Chosen One trope (even if I think it's been done before)? You have a person who is the Chosen One (either from a prophecy or some other special event) and they believe it; however, it turns out to be a total lie, orchestrated by the main villain for their own machinations. It can either be intentional (the person was chosen to be the "Chosen One") or by chance (the person happen to fit the description). Either way, the person - the "Chosen One" - isn't special at all; in the grand scheme of things, they're a nobody. "B-but I'm the Chosen One!" "That's right; the *one* _I_ have *chosen* to lead the downfall of mankind!"

[@magikphoenix140]

That would be interesting.I honestly would just love it if Chosen One characters in general,actually had downsides from being the Chosen One.Whether it’s internal or external. Like maybe a chosen one character who feels as if their only worth is being the chosen one,like they feel like it’s the only thing that matters about them or that’s it’s their only purpose,and that causes some issues for them in the future,and has negative effects on their personality and relationships with others as well.

[@yogsothoth8389]

You kind of covered this with Amber, but one thing I think makes a Mary Sue is when a character is either boring and/or straight-up awful and not only does the character not get called out, the whole cast loves the character and/or obsesses over them to a pathological degree. I’m looking at you, Bella from Twilight.

[@ladyheavdev]

*Connie Maheswaran from SU entered the chat*

[@Ramsey276one]

6:00 LOVED THAT XD I kinda expected HISLER, though ... (Mother’s Basement)

[@devastatheseeker9967]

I hate RPGs that make your character a Mary Sue. You're the dragon born, but that isn't enough, you're also the listener for the Dark brotherhood.

[@zaki7583]

Agreed tho isn't it just because the mother found you more interesting as the dragon born and talked to you instead of the simp clown?

[@apollyonnoctis1291]

Honestly, for once, I wanna play an RPG where you DONT play as the main character. Instead, you play as some actual nobody who is only coincidentally roped into a heroic role. Maybe make the mastermind and main antagonist be the person who was spouting out these false prophesies so they could get into a position of power or some god like power, and their second in command being a silent protagonist who’s absolutely self righteous and has an uncontrollable and unstable power. Have the party members defy ever party member trope in an rpg. The main battle mechanic would be that all of the party members will fight in battle, not just have four of them do all the work while the others stay on the sidelines and chew on popcorn. First party member is one of the first enemies you face, a simple bandit. Second party member is the town drunk, who was once a master gladiator. Third member is a false magician, and the only “magic” he knows is simply modern chemistry. 4th member is the court jester, but they way too many screws lose, think Kefka, but if he got therapy. Fifth member is a tiny little imp that would usually be cannon fodder. The sixth member would a baby dragon, whose parents were slain by the self righteous hero. Finally, there’d be the heir to the recently vacated throne of the “demon king”.

[@Unapologeticweeb]

Well that's more Bethesda's incapability of understanding the concept of meaningfully choices in any real table top or crpg choices tend to lock of other options so that a master wizard don't become the wizard and warrior leader and leader of the thieves guild and more at the same time if you have a high wisdom stat or are proficient at magic you should be able to become the leader of said faction Bethesda just sucks at this i can litteraly become the harbinger of the companions while having a full mage build And a dagger

[@gozzythebat]

Not only that but you’re the leader of the Companions and Thieves Guild, Arch-Mage, Champion of all the Daedric Princes 😆

[@fatherpucci8170]

Just use cheat codes

[@howdydobuckeroo1204]

I like video games where you start out at the lowest point, or at least close to that. And the world regards you as such. Kenshi is great at this, you very rarely ever get any acknowledgment, or praise, instead you get the opposite. And this really pushes most people to try to achieve amazing feats, just to shove into whoever doubted you. Which is usually almost everyone. If you ever want a game where you are rarely ever the centre of attention, and have zero expectations by anyone around you, or simply try a game where you are not the main character. This is it.

[@Zetact_]

My general catch-all definition of what makes a Mary Sue is "a character who the author favors to the detriment of the overall story." In terms of definitions, I tend to like them to be more generally applicable - at least, for something as wide as the term "Mary Sue" so actual specific traits can't necessarily be linked with the term. Every writer, since they are human, will have a few darlings - when they refuse to budge on them, that's when they start becoming problems. It's also definitely is something that is relatively subjective since everyone's tolerance is different. Some people might HATE the characters who are OP but only if they're OP in a specific way; or they might not mind anything except the type of Sues who are adored by everyone. One of the most common stock Light Novel self-insert characters is the type who is "actually the best at everything but they don't get respect from anyone because of some arbitrary ranking system or something" and that's one of my most hated Mary Sue types. None of the traits in a Mary Sue independently are a problem - the problem is when they pile up, as well as how the world reacts to them, and most importantly how the author INTENDS the audience to view them. They can be incompetent, they can be disliked, they can be completely mundane by the world's standards, but if the writer is forcing them to be something because THEY love the character just so much is when I think they start going into Mary Sue territory. Mary Sues come in all sorts of different flavors, but the one defining trait that they all share is that you can just FEEL the extreme adoration the creator has for the character dripping off constantly. For an example, there is a VERY different tone you get when you look at Yagami Light and then turn to Code Geass, which many people compare to Death Note. Light definitely is not a Mary Sue. Not saying that Lelouch necessarily is a Mary Sue, but that he is FAR closer to it than Light was and at least is straddling the line. It's true that on a superficial level, and relative to their settings, Light is generally far better at things than Lelouch - mostly in just that Light is good at everything. The difference is that the narrative generally presents Lelouch as being justified, and any of the times he goes too far it's due to circumstances out of his hands. And Lelouch's ambition is presented as something that is righteous and correct, even with his absurd plan to make it happen. Pretty much everyone who isn't presented as some sort of foolish (or deliberately manipulated by Lelouch as part of his grand master plan to not agree with him) eventually DOES see things his way. Light's goal, in contrast, is never said to be right or wrong and it's left to the viewer to decide with even the ending of the series being left ambiguous - but one thing that is worth noting is that even if his goal is ambiguous, his motive is clearly shown to be twisted. Light is in a situation where every move he makes, he has to take a small risk that creates the landscape being that of the law slowly catching up to him, but in Lelouch's case it's the opposite, where even if he makes a mistake it ends up shaking out in the end and furthering his goal. Superficially, the two are similar in concept, but you can just sense the difference in how they get treated by the writing.

[@TheChildofAuraReborn]

You would LOVE Sword Art Online Abridged by SomethingWittyEntertainment. Their take on Kirito is the funniest shit ever.

[@samlutz1582]

I think Super Man could be a garry stue depending on which version of super man you're talking about. There are so many versions at this point that there's bound to be a few versions that are horribly written.

[@jgf4224]

Babe wake up, JAR uploaded another Mary Sue video.

[@cordyceps182]

It always irritates me a bit when people conflate high power levels with being a Mary Sue. Just because a character is strong doesn't mean that they are a Mary Sue, just that they are strong. Same applies to the concept of "The Chosen One". It's not necessarily bad on its own. The problem with Mary Sues is that they just completely kill a story's development. You already know things will end up going their way, they have practically no room to develop as a character, their ideals are never challenged, etc. As an example for a non-Mary Sue Chosen One/Powerhouse, here is the MC of a niche video game. He - Was hand crafted by a god to be the perfect man - Is capable of defeating gods in 1v1 combat - Is surrounded by women who love and adore him, all of whom are extremely attractive - Is a famous and accomplished writer - Can use practically every weapon and spell and technique he comes across - Is immortal However, he is not a Mary Sue at all. Much like what JAR says, no one would want to be this man. To counteract everything listed above, he also - Is cursed by said creator god because of her own twisted sense of humor. Said curse dooms any woman he gets with to die a horrible death - Is trapped in a loop where his memories are sometimes wiped so he has to experience the death of the ones he loves over and over again - Is perpetually haunted by the guilt of having everyone die - Dies A LOT in gruesome ways - Is partially responsible for why the world is so fucked up - Is seen as nothing more than a toy to play with by a majority of the gods - Is practically insane from the constant loops and torture and despair The point is, it all depends on how the character fits into the setting. The characters should respond to the situation they're in, not have the situation bend to their needs/

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

One idea I had for a chosen one archetype is that there's a prophecy with a chosen one... but here's the main twist. Not only is the chosen one not the protagonist (but instead is the protagonist's best friend), but it turns out that the prophecy chose him not to beat the Big Bad™, but rather to die, which causes the chains of fate to be broken and thus destroying the concept of fate itself in the story's universe. The idea is mostly just to set up this character who everyone puts all their faith in, thinking he'll win against the Big Bad™, only for the chosen one to die in a temple, with his blood leading to destiny itself being destroyed.

[@Bobby14]

Harry Potter as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu! I mean, I agree that he's the chosen one and all but he still has lots of flaws, isn't described as attractive and fails lots of times until he gets things right, lots of people dislike him (ok, also lots like him in the series) ... I understand that the events from Goblet of Fire makes him one since he is the only underage participant or that he literally learned Patronus from Lupin first and his curse mark and parseltounge but that's kinda it...

[@MelodyRose96]

One small correction I feel like I should make: An Anti-Sue isn't a character with one fatal flaw, plenty of sues have clumsiness and can't cook (especially in fanfictions with mary-sue ocs) an anti sue is a sue that has nothing BUT flaws. It's character where everything bad happens to them all the time, with flaws tacked on top of that. While a Mary-Sue would be like "This character is the best of the best, they do everything right and everyone loves them and never calls them out on their bullshit" an Anti-Sue would be like "This character is the absolute worst, they mess things up all the time and everyone hates them." What makes them a sue is how you're supposed to react to them, mostly with pity, and/or the characters are constantly comforting them to the detriment of moving things along. An anti-sue is what happens when someone takes the "You should make your characters have flaws and be imperfect" and thinks "oh, so if I make my character the absolute worst at everything, nobody can criticize it!" I'm admittedly struggling to come up with canon characters that fit this, but you can find this in plenty of fanfiction.

[@diamondcrafter78shane68]

Shinji from Fate. Guy has no redeeming/likeable qualities. He's so pathetic his own Servant doesn't even listen to him and he's also a dick.

[@frankwest5388]

The reason why “Anti Sues” and “Mary Sues” feel the same, is because they are defined by the same thing. An attempt by the writer to make a character be seen as impressive by the audience, not through natural story progression, but by adding elements that are either unneeded or logic breaking. The reason the assumed audience is so defining is that it changes the goal of the work. It no longer is a single narrative but a sort of fourth wall breaking attempt to change perspective, while showing the authors massive insecurities.

[@silverprimus321boi9]

@@frankwest5388 interestingly, I think korra might be a hybrid sue. A mix of jerk sue, Mary sue, and anti sue. Korra is basically a jerk to everyone, but no one will do anything about it, not even the characters that dont like her. She's also a Mary sue because despite being a jerk, she's well liked by everyone, and everyone that doesn't like her is seen as bad or is just misunderstanding her. Shes also right all the time, even when she's supposed to be wrong, and basically wins at everything she does, unless it involves the main plot. That's when the anti sue kicks in. She basically fails at nearly event where the main plot is involved, and loses heavily (loses bending in book 1, the avatars are gone in book 2, she gets tortured and poisoned and put in a wheelchair). This is to garner pity and make seem more human, when in reality it's just torture porn and emotional manipulation. Then the story treats these events like they're some kind of character growth, and she's become better. But when she's not in a situation that heavily affects plot, she goes back to the same Mary jerky sue and is either right all the time or flawlessly wins at everything she does. To make things even worse, all these heavy trauma inducing shit that's supposed to have lasting effects or do something to her don't even matter. When she loses her bending it only lasts 1-2 episodes and then gets it back + the avatar state. In book 2, she literally loses the avatar spirit and all of the other avatars, meaning that the avatar state is now useless. But then a poorly placed plot point and a retcon of the fucking avatar gives her back her avatar spirit and now she's even stronger than before, even though the avatar state is supposed to be all the experience of the prior avatars meaning that the avatar state is utterly useless. In book 3 she gets the heavy anti sue treatment and is poisoned. Traumatised , and put in a wheel chair. But in book 4, She's out of her wheelchair because timeskip and has been loafing around for 2 years, and then in a few episodes, all her trauma gets spirited out of her, turning her back into the same Mary sue she was. She's a trio of sues, and a product of what happens when a writer realizes their character is a Mary sue, and desperately convinces everyone she's not.

[@frankwest5388]

@@silverprimus321boi9 depends. Often times the traits you call “Sue like” are not just there to make her look better for the audience. Like how in season 3 she gets poisoned and becomes traumatized by it. It clearly has a vital narrative purpose beyond trying to make us feel bad for her and is meant to raise the stakes for everyone involved to put them on a timer. It doesn’t just exist to make us feel bad for her. It might not have been done perfectly and you might not like it very much, but it is not a “Sue like” moment. A real “Sue like” moment would include the narrative and world breaking it’s own logic, with the explicit goal to make a character more appealing for the audience and little else. As an example that moment in season 1, where Korra just regains her powers out of nowhere, as if her earned them back, despite the earlier established rules on blocking bending. That would be one. A lot of characters that people wouldn’t consider Mary Sues have such moments or attributes, that break narrative logic just to show off and could be considered “Sue like”. It becomes a problem only when the things associated with the character are so much more prevalent than the others, that it feels out of place or insecure on the authors side. Which is why I wouldn’t consider Korra a Mary Sue. Compare her with one of the more famous modern MS. Kirito from SAO. So much of the series is dedicated to make him more appealing to the audience, while breaking internal and narrative logic or being otherwise pointless inclusions. Him getting unique powers, becoming a god level hacker in seconds, the way all those girls fall for him, how he uses bad logic to accuse a guy of being the big bad guy and then being proven correct, the black coat, or the whole “Beta tester” nonsense. Many of those things are either impressive for their own sake or are clearly attempt as doing cool things the author saw in other places but not understanding them well enough to implement them in a non shallow way, leading to them only being there to make the character appear cooler than he truly is. There are things about him that serve the narrative and that’s fine, but the sheer amount of self gratifying nonsense and plot contrivances define him so much more, that calling him overall a “Mary Sue” would be more fair. I am not saying Korra is a well written character or her story is even good overall, but calling her a “Mary Sue” is a bit harsh and unfair from a character analysis perspective.

[@Swordsmen99]

For me one example of a someone who borders on being a Mary Sue is Beatrix from FF9. All of her boss fights are unwinnable fights, she's seen as the best of Alexandria's army, and even when she does do horrible things (like moreorless assist in two cases of genocide) those instances end up being swept under the rug. Which can make you a Karma Houdini type of Mary sue.

[@matityaloran9157]

6:56, see, if they had kept that line and Wanda responded “but can it ever compare to what I did to them?” instead of “it wouldn’t change how they see me” then that scene might have worked because it might have seemed as if she were taking accountability for her own actions

[@АлексейЮрловский]

My problem with Mary Sues is that almost every attribute of being a Mary Sue that people find is secondary. That is why there is so many "Sue types": because people do see a Mary Sue but cant really point out what is wrong with the character. My only definitive characteristic of character being a Mary Sue is if the whole story is build for them. To show how good this character is, or how good it would be to be in this characters shoes, or how good author is for coming up with such a good character. This approach is pretty much guaranteed to kill a story, so in my dictionary term "Mary Sue" has only a negative meaning, but is less broad that of an average one.

[@nicolas._.2294]

This reminds me of princess peach that literally annyone who I see on the internet call her a Mary Sue or toxic feminist or things like that I personally don't think she is any of them

[@rysonperry8069]

The trick to writing a great protagonist in a good story is using the proper mix of realism and tropes to make a semi-plausible mold of a person and then allowing them to run wild in your story: either to fly, or crash and burn spectacularly. The final destination of such character development(or lack thereof) is fascinating. I believe that people can change and when that is implemented powerfully in storytelling, it can make a huge impact and elevate the entirety of said medium whether video-games, books, movies, etc...

[@linksnivey1161]

I don't know if you're a Jojo fan, but I personally wouldn't classify Jotaro as a Gary Stu, especially in the manga. Somewhat his problem in story was others' perception of him, despite his punk persona, he does love and care for people and doesn't want to be a danger to others as shown when he's first in the prison cell. Admittedly from what I can tell, the anime adaptation kind of dialed it up a bit, causing some of his nuance to be lost in translation. Its still there, just not as clear. Who I would call a mary sue is unquestionably Giorno from Part 5. That dude has no struggle real struggle in my opinion. He shows up as the protagonist, has this grand dream of making Italy great again, and a rather overpowered stand that can create life. He always knows instantly what's going on with the enemy stand user right off the bat and what to do to counter them. Even during the final battle, the characters' victory is merely a case of "Hahaha I got the mcguffin before you", giving Giorno an even more OP stand. He's meant to be the type of protagonist who never falters in their mission, just about always sure of what he wants, but in such cases, I feel they can often be made a bit too undeterable to such a point they don't interact with the plot. Another examples I can think of is Touma Kamiyama from Kamen Rider Saber to which Touma himself is Saber. Touma doesn't really interact with his respective story in any compelling ways as his enthusiasm and friendship boner is all there really is to him. Towards the finale, he gets told by the final villain that he has this book, the same books being used by Touma to save the day, that shows all of life is already planned out including the end. Free will is an illusion and everything is on a set path so, in a feeble attempt to still feel important, the villain is going to bring the story to an end faster. Touma's reaction to it is essentially "yes but book good, book help me make friends", completely dodging around the plot point. I've heard that the finale redeems somethings to end on a decent note, but overall Saber up to that point was quite bad in general.

[@lucaswarriorteammining5786]

I won’t consider Giorno a Gary Sue because of how his fights work. He life giving ability is not as op as you think, it's Giorno's creativity that makes it so strong. Could you come up with the strategy he did in Green Day? Plus he had to risk his life to get praise, something a Gary Sue wouldn't have to do. Him winning with GER isn't even proof of him being a Gary Sue but him fighting for it. Diabolo was ignorant of the factors stopping him from getting the arrow while Giorno played patiently to get it. I'd call Gappy from part 8 a Gary Sue.

[@robbietheweirdo]

Personally I just love the Harry Potter series, my favourite characters are Minerva McGonagall and Luna Lovegood. While I do still find harry cool, I do agree with JAR about how a lot of things just happen to go Harry's way

[@DinnyBueno]

"You're making this and that video for views!" Well, of course?

[@MasterDK913]

My response exactly lol If I didn't want views I wouldn't be making videos lol I would just take the things I'm passionate about and do them without an audience. There are *reasons* for wanting views that are scummy or narcissistic, but views is something every KZbinr wants lol My reply is always "yes, I do want views. Thank you for being one of them"

[@Stratoblast]

SCP 682? I probably don’t or do want to be him because how he describes humanity as disgusting yeah it’s wrong, but The way he describes humanity just forces me to agree with him because he isn’t wrong

[@chriscollegia2901]

One example of a Mary Sue I see is Marinette from Miraculous Ladybug. She praised on her toxic behavior towards Adrien, everyone loves her except for the ones you shouldn't like, and is canonically better than Joan of Arc

[@GeorgeDCowley]

To be fair, being better than a random normal girl doesn't sound so incredible?

[@FrostyTheNightmare]

1:07 If anything he’s just a big buff baby who deserves all the love in the world.

[@PK-Radio]

The work of bad writers that’s what

[@Lobstro]

I've been loving your recent thumbnails! Kudos to your artist Kat!

[@frakspikes2619]

to me a mary sue is: -Someone loved by all, excluding the ocasional clear bad guy -Someone who never fucks up anithing they do, even if it's their first time doing it -Someone who bends the predescribed rules of the reality in which they are placed and yes, with this i do see your point JaR, Harry Potter really is a Gary Stu, from beguining to end if for nothing else, for the fact he survived the killing curse

[@nightmarestale1051]

I think Mary Sue/ Gary Stew characters can be justified but it's very hard to do. Here's my take: An essential requirement that I have is that the writers must never try to hide the fact that a character is a Mary Sue if they are one. It's best if they have it acknowledged by either the character themselves or side characters but at the very least don't try to deny it, you're just lying to your audience. I think if at least one of the following things applies, I think having a Mary Sue character is fine: 1. Mary Sues can justify having character development if they help other characters with theirs (ex: One Punch Man humbles both heroes and villains with his strength). If done well the Mary Sue will offer advice while still letting the people around them make their own choices and mistakes. That way there can still be conflict in a story that doesn't feel unnecessary because the perfect character could fix it instantly. If the Mary Sue is the protagonist but acts in a supporting role for other Characters and doesn't magically fix everything because they want people to learn and grow on their own, I think that's perfectly fine (ex: Cassy from The Good Witch). 2. You create conflict that a Mary Sue can't solve for a valid reason: Usually, this is done by taking ridiculously strong characters and making them face a problem they can't brute force their way out of, like being stealthy, puzzle-solving or relationship issues both romantic and platonic. Some may argue that such a character would just be overpowered and not a Mary Sue, but honestly, I think the line is kinda blurry. If done reasonably well you end up with a character that has never had to admit defeat before and is used to being the best at everything now suddenly way out of their element. It can be both a humbling experience and make them appreciate the people around them whose skills differ from their own. 3. It makes for great comedy. The anti-climactic moment when a character is completely and utterly defeated only for a Mary Sue to come in and solve the issue in a minute, is genius (Once again think One Punch Man). It's hilarious to watch a Mary Sue going undercover and having to figure out how normal people do things because they can't give away their powers. The problem with these perfect or overpowered characters is that it's difficult to introduce conflict into the story without making the audience frustrated because the Mary Sue could easily solve it. You need to give a valid reason as to why the Mary Sue can't snap their fingers and make it go away, doesn't matter if it's the Mary Sue themselves or a side character facing the issue. And that's hard. There are shows like Saiki K, whose protagonist has god-like powers but who's also an introvert and just wants to be left alone. The conflict here is that he can't tell people he has superpowers cause that would mean a lot of attention for him, at the same time he has to use them to get out of uncomfortable situations, he just has to be very stealthy about it. These kinds of ideas for Mary Sue characters are fine with me, they're great even. As long as it's humorous and no one takes it too seriously it can be very entertaining.

[@WubbaizyShipper1]

The best example of a good Mary Sue story I could think of is one where MS falls madly in love with a super klutzy deuteratagonist who feels like he can't do anything right until MS reassures him.

[@friendlyneighborhoodspaceman]

A Mary Sue to me is someone who overpowered and have no character development in the Beginning or end. Can I also get your opinion? Is Master Chief from Halo a Gary stu.

[@fatherpucci8170]

No of course he is super soldier it's make sense act like that

[@diamondcrafter78shane68]

That's not a mary sue to me in my opinion. Jojo characters are OP and don't develop much, but they're still not mary sues.

[@moredortor]

Claiming that a game main character is a Mary Sue seems wrong to me. We may defeat every enemy, become powerful and climb to the top, yes, but before that we as players have to get our ass kicked many times, spend countless hours for training before reaching that point. Most of time the main character are bland because they are for player to self insert. And the players already go through the “character development”, so they can’t be counted as Mary Sues.

[@tahrayay1990]

My definition of a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu is a character who is perfect, has no flaws and/or weaknesses, goes through no struggles, and everything falls in their favor.

[@slashermaster28]

11:57- Yeah, this right here is my biggest problem with the term 'Mary Sue'. It's one of those words people use so much, they just apply it to any character they don't like, regardless of what kind of character they are. Korra is practically the polar opposite of a Sue. She spends most of season 1 struggling with air bending, winds up losing her powers at the end of season 3, is repeatedly called out for her actions, has her first love interest break up with her in season 2 (And they never get back together) and gets bested in combat a lot. Seriously, she has a lot of things keeping her from being Miss Perfect.

[@Raximus3000]

It is the overall results of her actions, she creates chaos, nobody ever tells her that and by end she gets praised for it.

[@_PannieCake_]

My favorite game is Dragonage Inquisition because the game makes it so that at least 1 person will dislike you. Each side character disagrees with another, making you have to choose sides. The only way you can become a mary sue is by looking up each level and picking apart every dialogue option. Even then, it ends with either Sera or Blackwall hating you and leaving the inquisition.

[@FirefoxZ8]

hello nobody will probly find this comment in the future

[@thespacedoctor8272]

Hi

[@FatallyParasocial]

Hi

[@zeroxenoverse9251]

Yo

[@leoultimaupgraded9914]

See there’s a lot of Mary Sue characters that have no flaws what so ever and bend the plot to their will that makes me more anxious to try and make a show or create a main character for that show in general, like I know what to do and not to do but I’d still have that anxiety of “what if a majority of people hate it” and “what if I mess up a tiny detail that screws up the whole story”

[@CommentEnthusiast]

Joker and Batman are gary Sue's

[@alfonix562]

gary sue's what?

[@jadenbryant9283]

@@alfonix562 depends onn what version your talking about

[@emberfist8347]

No they aren't.

[@matityaloran9157]

2:50, wrong. It’s from the first book. And for the record, Harry loses Quidditch games in several of the books. It’s the power of Harry’s mother’s sacrifice which defeated Quirell. And the fact that he’s the youngest seeker ever is hardly something which features prominently about him in virtually any of the books. And let’s not forget that the major conflict of the first book is driven by Harry being too blinded by his hatred of Snape to realize that it’s actually Quirell who is the villain (with his anti-Snape bias remaining a character flaw in the sequels).

[@TannerThePuppyGamer]

personally i always thought that the Mary/Gary Stu's Were these flawless characters or has "flaws" that doesn't even matter and the story and or the entire universe just bend over backwards for them

[@mechanicpluto2430]

Personally, I think Literature Devil put it best as "A character to which the laws of the universe and common sense bend." A character where, in their mere presence, smart characters become dumb, strong characters become weak, powerful daemons, aliens, viruses, and the like all suddenly become swatted away like house flies, for very little (if any) reason other than "Well, (s)he's just awesome!".

[@filipvadas7602]

A Mary Sue/Gary Stue is like a storytelling paradox The moment they're involved, all common sense and logic just stops working in favor of them

[@phantomhooded7401]

I’ve been studying writing for almost a year. But in my textbook, a Mary Sue is a character that gets abilities or powers from out of nowhere and suddenly masters them with no idea or knowledge of them. Or a character who is always liked by everyone and does anything perfectly with no signs of challenge or practice. I like giving my characters a struggle or weakness to overcome to become better and learn and practice skills that takes time to develop. That’s just my textbook definition of a Mary Sue.

[@MetaKnight964]

What if the powers/abilities are acquired by accident?

[@Itachilover1210000]

I was always afraid that my favorite OC Mia Schmidt (from Tokyo Ghoul) is a Mary Sue because she has power potential. But then I watch these kind of videos and remember: - Mia needs help from outside - she lost battles and people - her fighting abilitys have a reason (trained soldier and teaching from her mother) - she sometimes even hinders because of her trauma she recieved - she is powerfull yes but her powers are her last resort - she has a moral code when it comes to killing - her story would also function when I wrote her out (because it is mainly about an soldier learning how to deal with grief and her trauma, she didn't even need to be a born halfghoul) Sorry for the infodump. But it sometimes helps me to get my mind clear. Either way: That was a great video!

[@darkengine5931]

From my perspective, character traits have nothing to do with what made the original Mary Sue fanfiction so asinine and inept. Characters that are overpowered and absent any glaring flaws can still be compelling and deeply engage us as audiences in what happens next. The ultimate storytelling problem to me with the original Trekkie fanfiction wasn't Mary Sue's character traits but how the entire world is obviously being distorted by a heavy-handed writer in order to accommodate her. For example, take a scene where our protag is about to cross the road and there's a drunk driver who has fallen asleep at the wheel. If our protag has superhuman cat-like reflexes and manages to evade the car at the last second by leaping over it, that doesn't make her a "Mary Sue" from my perspective in a way that drains our ability to get engaged in her story. Although it might make her overpowered (and we might need an antag who is just as overpowered or more to give her a challenging conflict to resolve), this alone doesn't drain the audience's interest. What would start making her more a "Mary Sue" in way that makes the story so unengaging is if the drunk driver implausibly wakes up at the last second and swerves out of the way and, furthermore, we can start to predict such things happening left and right. Even if she's the most blatantly flawed and underpowered character, this is the ultimate storytelling problem with the original Mary Sue fanfiction that makes it so uninteresting from my view unless it's intended for comedic effect; it's not related to the character's traits but how the world functions around him/her. Like Jack Burton from John Carpenter's "Big Trouble in Little China" is a Mary Sue from my perspective despite the fact that he has the glaring flaw of being an incompetent buffoon. He should have realistically died early into the film. Yet everything miraculously works out to his favor. It's okay there since the film is a comedy and his character is meant to be absurd and the film even pokes fun of him left and right. It wouldn't work if his character was meant to be taken seriously and considered competent given how much the world around him improbably bends to his advantage.

[@koplopbopthecatsikune9502]

To be fair, you hit the Mary sue definition right on the nail, I wouldn't have worded it any other way, I believe a Mary sue is what everyone else considers a Mary sue, a perfect character that has no faults and everybody loves them, even if they have minor flaws they don't come close to outshining all the "positives" the Mary sue has. I only let some Mary sues/Gary stus like superman slide cause unlike most Mary sues that are all-powerful just so you are forced to like them, Superman uses his Gary stu-ness to engage in enormous battles that are actually fun to watch, making him an enjoyable Gary stu since he actually makes his perfectness enjoyable.

[@matityaloran9157]

3:06, you’re wrong. Who was it who stopped Quirell killing Harry during the Quidditch match? Snape. Who was it whose strategy brought them through the Chess game? Ron.

[@otakubullfrog1665]

Characters who succeed every time can work for episodic storytelling where the whole point is to see how they manage to succeed in each particular situation. Golgo 13 would be one example of that which I happen to enjoy.

[@aureliodeprimus8018]

I think the main problem with Sue-like characters is that many people forgot about the important art of deconstruction (playing tropes and character archetypes completely straight by also showing the actual downsides/ causes of it). Superman for example falls out of the Sue-category, because (if properly written, not the Snyder bullcrap) he was also regularly deconstructed as constantly feeling lonely in the world due to his powers and having always to remind himself to not to go overboard with his powers and causing more harm than good.

[@pilloeglade5463]

Was Amber really all that bad until that point where she reveals that she knew Mark was a super hero in episode 7? Until then her actions seem reasonable. Unless you are saying a girl being upset that her boyfriend keeps ditching her makes her a jerk. Episode 7 makes her look like a jerk in retrospect. You know who is also a jerk? Eve. She has the power of terraforming, she can make everything out of nothing, literal God powers, but she just goes help some farmers grow grapes then lives like a hippie in the forest instead of solving world hunger.

[@rhondahoward8025]

10:38 "Man, thank you! Didn't think I was gonna make it!" (Nolan explodes pilot's head) Superman: Dammit, Nolan!