Kenneth Copeland and Richard Rohr: Two sides of the same coin? With Andreas Wiget

Does the prosperity preacher Kenneth Copeland have similar beliefs as progressive Friar Richard Rohr? My guest Andreas Wiget, who studies the theology of Copeland joins the podcast today to trace the commonalities, starting with their teachings on Creation, the Fall, and the Bible.
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[@bran7134]

I met Kenneth Copeland and his wife sitting in a Lubys Cafeteria here in Fort Worth one day and I couldn't help but take an opportunity to stop at their table and say prosperity is not in money and riches but solely in the fact that Christ died for our sins.

[@thegreatestoftheseislove1c379]

What was their response?😮

[@ybh8ful]

yeah I would really like to know how they responded!

[@bran7134]

@@thegreatestoftheseislove1c379 he merely smiled and nodded and said nice meeting you, have a good day.

[@ybh8ful]

@@bran7134 typical ambiguity and he probably did not mean it 🤣🤣

[@patp1585]

Such Evil

[@claudiaperfetti7694]

WOW!! THIS WAS SOOOO GOOOD!!! When this man was describing God's Holiness, and Otherness, and how we were not Him, it moved me to tears. I just worship Him for coming so near as to make us his, although we did not deserve it.

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks, Claudia!

[@ralphstarling6707]

Interesting! I might quibble with some of your comparisons with Rohr & Copeland. And, Rohr has helped me see that the gospel was better news than I ever heard growing up in conservative/fundamentalist culture which was mostly a reward/punishment system. Thanks for a good discussion.

[@karenduncan6004]

Keep up this kind of teaching, Alisa. There are so many Christians who have no discernment at all --- or who think they can follow self-styled "intellectuals" like Rohr without turning away from their Creator and Savior. Copeland simply skips the intellectual posturing and goes straight to the practice: appealing to human greed and pride.

[@RobertlawrenceBDCMinistries]

SOOO true. The metaphysics behind most word of faith doctrines is so closely related to New Age, Witchcraft, Buddhism etc. My current World Religions class at SES REALLY brought this out. Great connections Alisa

[@lucysnowe31]

This was so spiritually rich and intellectually dense! To be honest, I will need to listen again. Thanks, Alisa and Andreas!

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks! You are welcome!

[@paulsevers7740]

When I trained for the British Baptist ministry, I attended a college with a reputation for modernism/liberalism and some of my evangelical friends thought I was mad! However the value of it was that I got to understand the root point at which we diverge - namely what our conviction is about the nature of the Bible. You need to track right back to the source of our divergence with false teachers, and you and Andreas have done this admirably by identifying the root of their heresy being their belief about God and his relationship to the created order - namely panentheism - well done - and a very good summary of classical theism at no extra cost 😃

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks Paul!

[@faithcherry8529]

In the beginning God created says it all

[@faithcherry8529]

Genesis 1:1

[@faithcherry8529]

God is Spirit and truth

[@faithcherry8529]

Exactly what these contrary philosophical themes strive for and that is to make man equal to God.

[@joycook3093]

I had never heard of Richard Rohr - thankfully! Thank you for introducing me to how the Word can be twisted.

[@anabaird3835]

THANK YOU MRS. CHILDERS & MR. WIGET.❤ This convo has taught me a lot, answered many questions & confirmed many beliefs for me. What a blessing!🤗 ❤.

[@AndreasWiget]

You are welcome!

[@christinafulkerson8763]

Thank you for this interview! We so appreciate how you define, explain and uphold scripture so a regular sister and brother in Christ can understand and apply to our lives! We are grateful for your work! 💗🙏🏻🕊️

[@bella-bee]

I learned a new word! Aseity Being in and of oneself, that’s God. The I Am

[@MaryMouse51]

Great podcast. I have a friend who often uses the words of Romans 4:17 in a way that means SHE is calling into being things that are not. I went to find it, and the meaning is the opposite! ONLY GOD can call into being things that are not. When she was sick, she bragged that her 7 year old grandchild told her not to say "I am sick." Keep up the good work!

[@rhonda6093]

Thank you for this teaching. Terrific discussion. I feel more prepared to refute these false teachings.

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks! You are welcome!

[@allenh.6570]

Alisa, thank you so much for this interview. It was not only informative, it was so clearly easy to understand biblically. I am strenghtened by this because although I've never been to a Bible college, the separation between God our creator, and His creation is what I clearly see when I read scripture, beginning with Genesis 1:1. If we see God's Devinity as being IN nature, one can then make the error of praying to, believing in, and worshipping creation, (crystals, trees, sun, universe, man etc.), rather than the Creator, eternal God.

[@shilohpastor4584]

Great interview, Alisa, I am an artist, (have a bachelors and a masters in art) I am not one of my paintings, I do no not exist/live in them, I am separate from my paintings and my drawings, although, my creative expression, design, and will is expressed in my artwork nevertheless, I am not my artwork. It seems very simple, great explanation by both of you, we see so many people, Christians, leaving the simplicity of the gospel, and leaving what the church, that is, Protestants/Catholics, have believed and taught for two millennia . The Creator is not the creation., He exists separately, and outside of his creation, and is not dependent upon the existence of his creation for his own existence. He created the time space continuum, the first line of Genesis, in the beginning, God created the heavens, and the earth. Time is a creation, “in the beginning”, space, “… The heavens”, and matter, “… And the Earth” - A brilliant interview,🙏🙏🙏

[@aboveandbeyond9844]

Actually, that's a terrible explanation of God's relationship to His creation... And one biblical scripture verse confirms this... Romans 11:36... "Because out from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." And then we also have the following... John 1:1-3... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . He was in the beginning with God. . . . All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." Paint doesn't require you to be in it for it to have being/reality... Neither does a pencil or chalk... But according to biblical scripture... "...All things..." need God in them... "...All things..." must be through God... And "...All things..." must be unto/for God (serve His purpose/will). You say that you are not your artwork... But that isn't actually true... As the person of the artist can most definitely be seen in the artwork they produce... Even if the artist is carrying out forgery of another artist's work. Unfortunately, for your words, you seem to think that "...Protestants/Catholics..." have somehow got the "...simplicity of the gospel..." correct... Which is just an erroneous general assumption... Scripture tells us that God hates religion, and both Protestantism and Catholicism are religions. Hope that helps. Amen.

[@mattnieri1202]

That is beautiful. Keep up your artwork 🎨🖌️ God bless you!

[@maxipaw-dc5xj]

Love Richard Rohr.. read most of his books ❤

[@herminiavillegas479]

Thank you for this interview. Very informative.

[@cheerfulmouse]

Also excited about your show on the 12 facts that make Christianity true!!

[@cheerfulmouse]

So excited about this discussion. I didn't even know there was something that sounded like Pantheism, I'm at the beginning of the episode. Thank you for putting this together!!

[@wadegray890]

Richard Rohr is an awesome teacher. I have walked El Camino de Santiago pilgrimage twice and I've enjoyed listening to Richard along the way. Like Alisa, I too had my own version of a faith crisis and it was Rohr along with a few others that really helped me through that period. So thankful for Fr. Rohr, may God continue to bless him and his ministry.

[@TheTheologizingSubject]

He's a false teacher

[@wadegray890]

His teaching does expose a lot of the false, so I suppose you are correct.@@TheTheologizingSubject

[@tawnalynelle1]

So great you are fighting in the space for Christians who need some serious help, as we all do at such a time, to stay on the straight and narrow and avoid so much that threatens to distract, derail and lead us to heresy and far far away from the One we love. THANK YOU!❤

[@Mojo19693]

What about Tim Keller who also has a view with creation which includes evolution. Our church is doing a bible study on Galatians written by Tim Keller which sounds sound. some of his beliefs and teaching are scriptural, some not?

[@kelly91313]

I have a teacher friend that is very much involved in a church that preaches prosperity. She says we can control outcomes with our speech. It’s hard to know exactly how to minister to her because she’s a strong believer.

[@baronreed8131]

Sounds like you are doing great 👍. You won't be able to change her mind so just love her.

[@ybh8ful]

just ask her how many times she's changed outcomes with her speech! and ask how many times have bad outcomes happened despite her speech? I'm quite sure she's had very little control 😉

[@twarrior17]

@@ybh8ful yes, indeed, but her pride would prevent an honest answer. 😢

[@sorrowinchrist3387]

@@twarrior17 Have you seen to Kenneth interview maybe you need to show it to her? Its very shocking!

[@twarrior17]

@@sorrowinchrist3387 “have you seen to Kenneth” ???

[@anthonybarber3872]

Way to go my sister! Way to go my brother!

[@charliemcdonough7728]

Thank you Alisa and Andreas for teaching me a new word today. I never heard about panentheism before today. Now I know what bothers me about the sound of Kenneth Copeland's and Mr. Rorh's voices when they try to describe any attribute of Almighty God.

[@AndreasWiget]

You are welcome, Charlie! Be blessed.

[@OmoyeEbhomielen]

I appreciate your work as I've listened to you a couple of times. I'm in my 30s and I've been listening to Copeland, Hagin, Capps, Wommack, and Renner since I was a child. I have never been led to deconstruct. I have grown in my authority as a child of God and have learned to not allow the devil mess with my (soul & body) mind, health, family & finances. Prosperity = nothing missing, nothing broken/wholeness in every area of life of the one who knows their God.

[@dalewier9735]

Would you say that "prosperity " = more than enough?

[@OmoyeEbhomielen]

@@dalewier9735 Sure. Abundance vs. sufficiency

[@stephenpaulrichard1403]

I don't think I have heard better covenant teaching than what Copeland gives.

[@graftme3168]

Why did the apostles not live the kind of life you are talking about? They went without, often. They were stoned, beaten, ship wrecked, crucified, etc. Some of them even suffered illness. New Testament saints suffered imprisonment and had their possessions taken from them. The Bible even tells us that those who teach that godliness leads to gain are false teachers. Paul chastised the church of Corinth for acting as if they had already arrived in the kingdom. Jesus promised believers that they would suffer in this world. People who believe the prosperity gospel have created their own god in the image they have created in their own mind.

[@dalewier9735]

@@graftme3168 can you take one subject at a time (for example, you don't know h9w all the apostles lived, in the case of James, for example, he remained in Jerusalem when the "great persecution" Acts8 began after Stephen's death, this of course is James, Jesus' half brother who Paul calls an apostle in Gal 1. The list is Paul's ministry. And you can't find 8n scripture that any apostles had illness, although that is taught by those who teach cessationism. Even if illness was present, it does not mean that they died that way. I also don't understand your comment concerning Corinthians. Paul makes clear the present tense existence of the Kingdom in Roman 14:17 For the Kingdom is ...in the Holy Spirit.

[@cathyholoway722]

Hi your channel is truthful, refreshing and great conversations I'm a believer In God Nd his son Jesus Christ. I pray that this great country of USA becomes a more christion country. Love each other no matter even if they don't look like me every one is valued.

[@stephenpaulrichard1403]

Copeland aside , I was bothered in disagreement with something Wiget said. He said God doesn't feel emotions like we do Isaiah 54:7-8 NIV “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. [8] In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord your Redeemer.

[@AndreasWiget]

God has no passive tensions. This does not mean that he cannot be angry.

[@richardjohnson2692]

It's sad to say, that I know a few people at church that like the teachings of Richard R. Very grateful for your ministry

[@CitizenMindy]

Thank you Alisa, I am always learning something new or reaffirming what I knew to be true.

[@alanhd4]

I learned a lot from the guest in the 5 minutes he was given to speak.

[@renevelandia9731]

Thank You so much

[@michaelhayman2549]

A great conversation Alisa and Andreas. ❤

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks Michael!

[@unclejackluminous1470]

I love my dog but not in the same way that I love my God ✝️⚔️🙏

[@unclejackluminous1470]

Dog is God spelled backwards 🤯

[@libertylarochelle8517]

Thank you Alisa and Mr. Wiget. Blessings to one and all. Goodnight from South Australia 🇦🇺.

[@AndreasWiget]

You are welcome! Blessings to Australia!

[@DavidJason-yh8zy]

Hello 👋

[@robynbaker5516]

Alisa great interview as always people need to hear this 🙏❤️

[@AndreasWiget]

❤

[@bkmyers731]

Just want to add that I’ve had Universal Christ on my kindle for probably at least a year and it still has that same dedication when I open the book today.

[@karenduncan6004]

It would be interesting to see what happens if you update it.

[@justbobshalfhourshow695]

Andreas is a really interesting guy. Wish he had more material out there but I know he's busy.

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks! Working on more content!

[@SushiLighthouse]

I would love to have this in the NJ/NY area❤

[@krakoosh1]

The Aseity of God is an excellent teaching by RC Sproul

[@suzanneyorkville]

I love Andreas's closing remarks. Great episode.

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks!

[@DavidJason-yh8zy]

Hello 👋

[@krismarsh1405]

I wish I’d known about impact 360 when my kids were teenagers!! 21:34

[@Flo-gb3uh]

I thank heaven for you

[@rochellecaffee1417]

“Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today, and forever.” But if you look at the Whole Word of God, you can not find agreement with that notion. They are cherry-picking. The Alpha and Omega. “The fear of God is not in them.” Adding to Scripture…Paul said, “Do not go beyond what is written…” that way we all stay on the same page, so to speak. He IS SOVEREIGN, period!!! Thank you Alisa! God bless you.

[@incredable6211]

I so enjoyed listening, if I was quizzed on the content I'd fail for sure, when you were talking about God not changing, which I agree with, I wish you would have talked a bit about how that works out regarding the new and old testament (old will - new will) My journey with Christianity began will a lot of K.C. type understanding of God, I'm walking much of that back. I think at a certain level the Church as a whole is treating anything Pentecostal as an embarrassment and has overreacted. One of the things that I'm strong on is that "God is much much smarter than me", looking back I have to say that it's very easy and common when you learn about God and feel strongly about what you believe - there's this thing that comes in - it's called PRIDE, looking back I was proud thinking that I was smarter than others that didn't see things as I did. Where ever you fall in this debate, make sure that you see yourself 1Cor 13: 10-13. Relative to God we are really not very smart at all, anyone who thinks they've figured out all about God, that's a problem all by itself. God made everything that the James Webb telescope sees, and somehow He likes me in spite of my actions.

[@aboveandbeyond9844]

"...Relative to God we are really not very smart at all, anyone who thinks they've figured out all about God, that's a problem all by itself." Yep... And anyone who hypes "...theism..." is someone who holds to themselves being as smart as God. Amen

[@fargomonkey5133]

Can I recommend you don't see it as new will and old will, it has elements to it that are good but it is ultimately inadequate. Covenant is the better meaning by far. GOD makes covenants and the is no requirement that His will ever changes to do so.

[@therooster2896]

Nice job for saying. Bran the man.

[@joanschutter5863]

RE: changes on Kindle books. This is exactly why my daughter protects her books from Amazon by loading books that are not owned by them or cracking the code so that the Amazon books are no longer owned by them. If they own it, they can make changes or even remove them from our device.

[@lauralynne1483]

Great podcast! Thanks! Since I dozed off, I'm not sure whether Mormonism (aka Latter-day Saints) was mentioned, but they believe God and man are of the same species (along with Satan and angels too). In other words, this religion has a serious blurring of Creator-creation distinctives. And, not surprisingly, some on-the-fringe-LDS have drawn upon Rohr's work.

[@AndreasWiget]

Hi Laura, that’s right. There are actually LDS professors who have appreciated Copeland in their writings.

[@camillenelson8909]

Would like to hear the guest more

[@brandiannek]

The graphic for Panentheism looks just like a graphic in the systematic theology book I bought from the Bethel bookstore! Systematic Theology for the New Apostolic Reformation by Harold Eberle. Reading that book what part of what shook me out of the NAR & WOF movement. I saw all of the similarities it had with the New Age worldview.

[@biblereadingwithstudyguide2832]

Another great resource on the attributes of God is A W Tozer's book The Knowledge of the Holy. Very easy read. I've read it multiple times as well as listening to it on KZbin.

[@Bienbendecida]

We really got a lot of good takeaways from this. Very helpful insights and information. Thank you! Is there another way to get funded though so the audience doesn’t have to sit through commercials for bacon??

[@DavidJason-yh8zy]

Hello 👋

[@JamesMiddletonDesign]

One complaint. I was listening to this interview whilst working. I am afraid every time Andreas Wiget spoke, all I could see in my mind was Arnold Swartznegger, filling potholes. ;) Of course, I am messing. A great interview. Many thanks Alisa. I'll be back.

[@jenndavin]

And the edge of the coin has a bit of Mormonism included with regard to their views of humanity and diety.

[@allanvanderley193]

Hi-Sister-ALISA; In returning to watch your Show podcast,April30,2023 - ‘Kenneth-Copeland-&-Richard-Rohr:-Two-sides-of-the-same-coin’?; I was struck by two things. I intentionally have ‘not’ watched your podcasts and re-broadcast streams for awhile now, since before the pandemic, to deliberately broaden my exposure to christian debate platforms and other popular evangelical christian apologists among social media resources of science, philosophy, and personalities. From what I remember of your position understanding polemics rhetoric orthodoxy and online personality, I had expected great growth in understanding reasoning and rhetorical art. You struck me then as you do now as intelligent, reasonable, logical, spiritual, experienced; ‘sharp-minded’, ‘soft-hearted’, and good-natured ‘thick-skinned’. And, yet; I feel I need to expound on the ‘historical’ narrative; ‘Divine-Simplicity’ of the existential universe and God; The-Bible; The New Testament; Jesus The Christ; The Resurrection; The Gospel; and due-diligence of examination more clearly defined. The Show’s format and rhetoric appears more of a self-satisfying gossip opinion talk-show, like that of Tucker Carlson FoxNEWS entertainment - in rhetorical subterfuge of sophistry of a destain for others, as if it seems your personal mission to prophecy clarity to the confused and gullible. Which, no doubt, you may continue to think of my notes as I share them with you: Luckly, we have a dumbed-down common-global lingua-franca - the English language, in common to parse the layers of the argument into discernible pieces. In part, your arguments cover multiple methods of conveying your point of view. In simple terms they are the ‘semantic’ arguments; the ‘appeal-to-authority’ arguments; and the ‘abstract’ versus ‘empirical’ arguments. The ‘semantic’ arguments seem to be, in my view; the ‘objective’ versus ‘‘subjective’ argument; the origins ‘time’ argument; and the individual’s ‘experiential’ - ‘my-truth-vs-your-truth’, argument. I will ‘not’ address these types of arguments since, they fall more in the area of debatable semantics and etymology - in itself a tedious task of linguistical entanglement. … PREAMBLE . CONTINUED-ON-1. ~

[@allanvanderley193]

2 … And so, therein lays the real quandary; since everything in the universe is expanding away from us, and if we were to reverse the expansion to its point of origin, why does the ‘origin’ end-up being from the point-of-view of the ‘observer’? We can presuppose that there was no infinitely dense point in mass matter and energy - no ‘big-bang’, as is being theorized. But rather, an all spontaneous omni-directional conflagration from ‘no-tangible-thing’. Which it turns out may be the same material or energy that space itself is caused by and expanding through - ‘dark-energy-matter’. This is a supernatural phenomenon, not just sub-atomic particles popping in and out of existence in an infinite field of mathematical probabilities, but, what presupposes the source of energy to transmute into particle matter through the Higgs field ? This is ‘magick’. The only, and best guess answer to the source of energy itself is a singular consciousness from which we draw our own identifiable individual consciousness; as if it were a singular individual identifiable ‘collapse’ of a multi-present omni-directional omni-present field of probable existential consciousness. But, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. That seems to be what Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Neils Bohr, Heisenberg, Thomas Jefferson, Spinoza, and the biblical-narrative suggests in the eyewitness Gospel of John Zebedee. Love in His Name always. Your explanatory flushes-out the historical narrative of clarifying the Gospel of the christian biblical-narrative which was hi-jacked conflated and iterated as a subterfuge of religious rhetorical polemics that gets spun into a sophistry that atheists and skeptics, like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins easily conflated into an intentional-fallacy. … 2 . CONTINUED-ON-3. ~

[@allanvanderley193]

3 … Most understand ‘God’ and the ‘biblical-narrative’ from the specific point of confused and manipulated doctrine of the Life Morals Teachings and Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth by means and purposes of manmade motives. U.S.President-Thomas-Jefferson,POTUS-No.3, the greatest legal mind this country ever produced, studied the biblical-narrative for 50-years in four-languages - Greek; Latin; French; English. He concluded something to the effect that, Jesus was no imposter Himself, but rather The Great Reformer of The Hebrew code of religion; that finding the Words of Jesus was like finding ‘diamonds in a dunghill’; that His Words had suffered badly at the hands of the ignorance and roguery of men; that He taught the Most Benevolent and Sublime set of Morals ever known to humanity. To put the doctrine into present-day cultural context, attached as follows is an explanatory of Universal Salvation I have been sharing recently. NOTE: As a ‘slight-of-hand’ - I intentionally conflated the meaning of the use of the cosmological word ‘Universe’ with the theological rhetorical use of the word ‘Universal’ Salvation. This conflation of terms will more clearly be defined at the end of this essay by the ‘cosmological-ontological-existential’ treatise explanatory: … The English language uses only five-percent of the human lexicon to convey up to 90-% of intended communicated meaning. It came into common use five-hundred-years-ago,15-th.century; unlike the Koine-Greek common language used by Jesus in the First-century, known as ‘Aramaic’; and unlike the Ancient-Greek classical language used by the Hebrews before the Birth of Jesus,three-hundred-years-before Christ, known as the ‘Septuagint’. The original Hebrew Scriptures along with Moses’ ‘Tablets’, the Ark-of-The-Covenant, were lost during the siege and destruction of Solomon’s Temple and the City of Jerusalem by the Babylonian Empire,six-hundred-years-before-Christ. The Hebrew Old-Testament Scriptures was rewritten under the Greek Empire,three-hundred-years-before Christ. The Bible with its New Testament teachings came out of the military-industrial complex of the dying Latin Roman Empire,beginning 325-years-after the Birth of Christ; known as the ‘Vulgate’. English came out of the global seafaring trade,17-th.century; one-thousand-six-hundred-years-after the Resurrection of Christ. It was used as a dumbed-down common-global phonetic-based lingua-franca. John Zebedee - ‘The Disciple Whom Jesus loved’ - Jesus’ Close Personal Best Friend, the only living Apostle eyewitness to write a Gospel, wrote Revelation while exiled by the Roman Empire on the Greek island of Patmos. John was expected to remain for Christ’s return to ‘decode’ the meaning of Christ’s Resurrection in a volume of letters to His followers and church communities in Turkey. … 3 . CONTINUED-ON-4. ~

[@allanvanderley193]

4 … John used the apocalyptic Hebrew prophetic hyperbolic ‘language’ to hide its intended meaning from the editing censorship parsing redacting or confiscation by the Roman Imperial guards. The letters merely confirmed Jesus Return as The Christ in His Second Coming to instill His Agency on Earth to His Disciples to ‘proclaim His Kingdom on Earth’ as it is in ‘Heaven’ - this is ‘The Gospel’. Jesus ‘returned’ on the force of the will of the wind by Fire of Baptism of His Holy Spirit on the day of the Pentecost in the City of Jerusalem, to instill His Agency in the ‘New’ Jerusalem to proclaim throughout the world that Earth had been annexed into God’s Kingdom of Heaven upon The Anointment of Jesus as The Christ Enthroned at The Right Hand of God by Declaration of Decree, that All Power and Authority in Heaven and on Earth had been given unto Him. This is to simply and profoundly declare Salvation into Christ’s Kingdom is by birthright as if being ‘Born Again’ into the ‘land of the living’ on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no jurisdiction outside Jesus The Christ’s Jurisdiction; this includes, Heaven, Earth, humanity, us, our-enemies, Hitler, Satan, the Devil, his demons and hell. We were all ‘outcasts’. This is no different in principle and general territorial jurisdiction, as all those born in the territorial jurisdiction of the United States of America are American citizens Created equal by; and in; The Image of our Creator, and endowed with the inalienable rights to life liberty and the freewill to pursue happiness. We are all born into His Kingdom - we are all born into Salvation. Christ has reconciled all things onto Himself. To be clear, it ain’t complicated; only the worst kind of evangelical christian ‘predestinational’-Calvin,1618 ‘end-times‘ ‘judgment-day’ ‘tribulation’ ‘rapture’-Darby,1830 popular tripe makes it so. Love in His Name always. … “ - Nearly ALL CHRISTIANS believed in ‘Universal Salvation’ for the first 400-years of Christian history. Here's a brief history . . . After the Apostles died the church went into what is called the ‘Patristic Era’. These were church leaders that were taught by the Apostles. They are called the church ‘Fathers’,[‘patristic’ - meaning ‘fathers’]. What is little known is that nearly all of them were ‘universalists’! This is an ‘embarrassment’ to ‘modern Christianity’ and those who would rather have this information kept ‘secret’. Let me give you the back-story . . . Six-bible-schools arose in the First-few-centuries and were dedicated to teaching Christianity. The first-four to arise were ‘universalist’,( Alexandria, Cesarea, Antioch, and Edessa ). Later, the school in the city of Ephesus arose and taught ‘Annihilationism’ - that is the idea that the rebellious would be made ‘extinct by fire through an act of God’. … 4 . CONTINUED-ON-5. ~

[@allanvanderley193]

5 … Later still came the school in the Latin Church of Rome which came up with the idea of ‘Hell’ as a place of ‘Eternal-Conscious-Torment’. So how and when did the pendulum swing and ‘Universalism’ become the minority view ? Under Augustine,( 354-AD-to 430-AD ), the church of the ‘west’ in Rome in the Fourth-th.century ‘Universalism’ came under severe attack. Why ? Augustine was concerned that ‘Universalism’ opened the door to ‘loose living’. Some believers began to presume on the ‘Mercy of God’ and figured that ‘since all were going to be ‘Saved’ then we could just go on sinning that ‘Grace may abound’.’ Augustine reacted against this trend and brought the idea of ‘eternal-damnation’! This was intended to encourage believers to stop living like the devil ! With the passing of time the ‘western’ position of Augustine gained momentum and became the predominant [ orthodoxy ] view of ‘Christianity’. Augustine's ‘anti-Universalism’ became solidified through the help of Jerome,( 382-AD ) and Roman Emperor Justinian,( 544-AD ). Jerome's Latin Version of the Bible called the ‘Vulgate’, incorrectly translated a very important word that has left its mark in all English bibles ! In our English bibles we see the word "eternal" again and again; especially in the phrase "eternal fire". The Greek words, ‘aeon’ and ‘aionios’; ‘DO NOT MEAN ETERNAL’! The word "eternal" got into our English bibles through the Latin Vulgate. You see Jerome translated these Greek words as "eternal" when they dont refer to this at all. The word "Eternal" for us today means ‘an endless period of time’. In the New Testament the original words referred to a specific ‘ERA-OF-TIME’ called the "age-to-come"! These words really mean,”age”,”era". What Jerome did, in harmony with Augustine's position, was to translate the Greek ‘aionios’ into the Latin ‘aeturnus’,( instead of ‘era’). ‘Aeturnus’ is the root of the English word ‘Eternal’! Bingo ! There you have it ! ‘Aeturnus’ means ‘endless’; ‘aionios’ means ‘a restricted period of time or era’! So now Augustine and Jerome have joined forces to eliminate Universalism and to consolidate ‘eternal,[ endless ] fire for the lost’. … 5 . CONTINUED-ON-6. ~

[@allanvanderley193]

. Hi-ALISA; Thank you for your reply. Apology for not getting back to you sooner, the response to the comments I posted on your Andreas Wiget interview of the Copeland v. Rohr review was rather cryptic. Your YouTUBE eMail message was ‘filtered’ to a ‘promotional’ spam folder and I did not come across it in my normal mailbox check. But I do appreciate you making an effort, no matter how filtered and cryptic the security and privacy protocols are, in hearing from you. Since, you are extraordinarily active on multi format platforms, I will differ to your preferences to ‘converse’. Please let me know whatever you are most comfortable with in a genuine dialogue discussion. I love your heart and work to seek the Lord’s Calling. We do differ quite a bit in heritage, cultural experience, and historical biblical understanding. But we do have a genuine desire for overcoming subterfuge, sophistry, and general obfuscation. Please let me know how you would like to proceed with a ‘sharp-mind’,’soft-heart’, and a ‘thick’-good-natured-‘skin’? Love in His Name always. Yours, ALLAN

[@alfonsoreynosa8143]

God is the Origin Source!

[@davidmcclellan7263]

According to the one gentleman, God's DNA is in everything that means when we take a tree and turn it in to a table or chair we changed God into something we want. wow what power we have. Not.

[@Sooner-im9qf]

A lot of the Copeland and Rohr ideas sound, well, New Age! Which, of course, is not "new" at all.

[@johnmeinhardt-jensen7713]

I so agree with what is being said, but very little scripture being used to support. Our only assurance we have that we are not preaching another gospel, is scripture.

[@Oreo_the_CattleDog]

This was an amazing video keep it up!

[@AndreasWiget]

Thanks!

[@Oreo_the_CattleDog]

@@AndreasWiget 😊

[@sorrowinchrist3387]

Alisa Doreen knows about Richard Rhor and has a video on who he is, Richard Rohr, the architect of enneagram theology believe in universalism. He is popular cause Men courses at church uses him for inner healing and discovering man hood and Eastern meditation. Gloria Gaither, Eugene Peterson has endorsed Rhor and also women conferences. He also was invited to a new age conference that had over 100 new agers. He endoreses Marianne Williamson in ‘A course in miracles’, Rohr appeals so much to many people because he uses so many beautiful and lofty words which at the end it kind of makes you dizzy.

[@woodb51]

A friend of mine described him as a painter who just throws a bunch of different colors on a canvas and voila, you have……….confusion.

[@sorrowinchrist3387]

@@woodb51 The problem with this painter is that many are going to him to ask him to paint this confusion in their living room, study room, where they can meditate on. And they are all loving him for it! And so they are abandoning the traditional painter and that is dangerous!

[@st.clairdancing2094]

Kopeland's theology about Adam and Creation sounds very much like Mormonism. Kenneth's way of speaking about Adam is very Mormon.

[@AndreasWiget]

That’s right. There are Mormon scholars who appreciate Copeland and see him as evidence that Mormonism and evangelicalsim have much more in common.

[@fspees]

To compare Kenneth Copeland & Dr. Richard Rohr is misplaced. I sincerely encourage all of your listeners to read/listen/watch Rohr more comprehensively. You will be enriched by his humble approach and reintroduction to the power of the Trinity and broadening the evangelicals perspective on God.

[@Locomedic1]

Andreas Widget KZbin at Digging Deeper

[@RainbowMan.]

Beautiful!! 😍

[@eugenenunn4900]

Bruh, im trying my best not to get lost while listening to this.

[@aboveandbeyond9844]

It's impossible not to, as it is spoken for the very purpose of confusing the listener. That's what people who speak error try to do.

[@AndreasWiget]

@@aboveandbeyond9844 There is certainly no such purpose.

[@karigross4596]

@@aboveandbeyond9844 what error?

[@AndrewJohnH]

​@AndreasWiget It's possible they were talking about Rohr & Copeland's views being purposefully confusing (which you and Alisa read in this video, in order to analyze them), rather than saying that the analysis you were giving was intended to be confusing.

[@aboveandbeyond9844]

@@AndreasWiget... The proof is in the pudding... The speaking was confusing and confused... Which is evidence of its purpose to confuse. Not rocket science. Amen.

[@julieann6769]

Really not trying to make fun of Mr. Widget but he really sounds like a Christian Arnold Schwarzenegger (I figured they're from the same country). Anyway, LOVED the episode. Will be listening to it again!

[@AndreasWiget]

Well, I certainly have a German-sounding accent. But I am Swiss and not Austrian like Schwarzenegger. Germany, Austria and Switzerland are all German-speaking countries but the accents are very different.

[@bkmyers731]

Thank you Alisa. I used to think in same way as everything I’ve heard from you, but for at least a decade now my views on some things have radically changed. I think a lot of the disagreement presented here is a misunderstanding between the “progressive” and non progressive parties. I don’t believe that Rohr (or most progressives) would argue against God having attributes that are beyond our human capacity. It seems to me that the argument used here could interchangeably be used to argue that Christ could not indwell us (which, according to scripture, He does). I don’t think to be a pananthiest one would have to say God doesn’t have beyond human attributes. I think panathiesm is a result of one recognizing the complete omnipresence and omniscience of God. Just my opinion. Although I disagree with you, I very much respect you and will sometimes hear what you have to say…I think it’s important that everyone broadens their listening to those they think they won’t agree with.

[@kelliez9991]

The difference between worshipping the Creator versus worshipping the created.

[@wellwaterg]

I learned a lot from Kenneth Copeland on the authority of God’s Word and some of the things said about K Copeland’s teaching seems that they have not ever listened to him or read his books.

[@indigatorveritatis8891]

He's a shameless reprobate

[@stephenpaulrichard1403]

I agree over the 30 years plus I have listened to him on various occasions it's always combined with scripture from one end of the sermon to the other. I don't sense he is just focusing on personal wealth. Is he perfect, none are.

[@dominiclapinta8537]

Exactly. It's just popular to condemn Mr. Copeland. I have hear him preach and I even have a Bible he had made that has all of his highlighted parts and writing. I came here because I saw the title of Richard Roger and Kenneth Copeland being compared. Just goes to show how famous influencers like to stay in an echo chamber to hear only one voice. Is she hasn't credibility, Mrs. Childers would actually interview Mr. Copeland, Jew and Greek, or somebody like Andrew Wommack. She won't though because they have the power because of the Holy Spirit, instead of contrary creeds for the sake of creeds like Westminster confession(which isn't affirming to the entire Bible. I have read it)

[@lesleyknox1243]

I'm guessing Good Ranchers is not available 😢in Australia ❤

[@TheShireBookstore]

Love your stuff, Alisa! Hoping to go to the Nashville event!

[@DavidJason-yh8zy]

Hello 👋

[@Star-dj1kw]

✅ good video

[@conceptualclarity]

I haven't had time to listen to this yet but as bad as Kenneth Copeland is, I have a really hard time imagining that he could endure Richard Rohr.

[@chamomiletea9562]

It is quite odd to say they are each a side of the same coin. I've studied them both. Yes, you can find things they would agree on out of a very large library of philosophy and theology. But, they have far, far more differences than similarities. Worlds apart. Neither one represents my personal belief about God. I think we all will have nuanced differences with how we would describe and define our relationship and understanding of God who is ultimately unfathomable. I was taught at an early age in Sunday school that God is omnipresent and part of all life but that doesn't mean that I worship God as a tree.

[@RobertlawrenceBDCMinistries]

The answer to 42:50 I think is... how did Christ die for our sins if Christ is in all matter in the Universe.

[@AndreasWiget]

Yes, the doctrine of the universal Christ denies that Christ is a distinct individual who came to die for sinners. Any form of pantheism or panentheism eventually destroys true individuality.

[@colinpurssey9875]

I don't know if it was in this dialogue hosted by Alisa Childers or in fact in another of her video presentations where she laments how progressive Christians misjudge evangelicals such as herself , believing that they're mostly gun-toting , reactionary , puritans . Well , as a so-called progressive myself , I actually think her grievance is warranted . Many putative progressives do have this mistaken perception that virtually all evangelicals have these dispositions . But then similarly , she and most of her fellow evangelicals deprecatingly stereotype progressive Christians as typically atheistic/agnostic , socialistic , libertines . And that disparaging caricature , when assumed as universally applying to progressives , is just as mistaken and divisive a notion as is that of those who ignorantly misconceive by imputing a collective ideology and sub-culture to Alisa and her evangelical confreres .

[@tazlizard]

I live in Tucson and would Love to go but I can not afford to! Will it be here on KZbin afterwards?

[@endlessstudent]

I’ve come to notice that Oprah rarely, if ever, promoted someone who had the right Christology. She was a dangerous spiritual influence for decades, and continues to creep into our media still today. That used to be my litmus test, if they were on her show, then there was something wrong in their teaching.

[@conceptualclarity]

Yes I think it was a discredit to Carl Lentz and Joel Osteen that they wanted to be on her show and t.d. Jakes as well

[@cznosam7004]

There should be a diagram in between panentheism and theism where in Christ (the Logos) are all the prototypes of all that is good (the logoi), but then he creates them from himself, based upon the blueprints within himself. The correct model would be a combination of #2 and #3, but all that is in Christ are the blueprints of that which came from him. The manifestation / reification of the things he created are the result of Him stamping them into existence. He is the first born of creation, he is the mold or stamp, and reality is the icon / print as the result of that stamp. The image he creates from this isn't Him, but is a reflection of Him. In the eschaton, all that is good, in its perfect prototypical form, which poured out of Christ returns to Christ "Behold, I make all things new"

[@dustinneely]

Orthodox? ☦️

[@cznosam7004]

@@dustinneely 100% and the true traditional untouched way of understanding this, which comes straight from scripture "in Him all things consist": He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Colossians 1:15-18

[@dustinneely]

Alisa Childers isn't going to listen. She has done multiple episodes concerning panentheism. She believes in "classical theism" so she's a Thomist. Thus the Orthodox Church is "heretical" in her mind. She just lumps everybody that doesn't agree as "progressive" so she can remain comfortable in her echo chamber.

[@eveharrellauthor]

This was great thank you! I have a question. In Jesus’ prayer within John 17, He prays for us to be one with Him as He is One with the Father. When explaining this to others, I typically share that He is pouring His Spirit into us to transform us into the likeness of Christ. And that is the point of being in Christ. Correct? To be more like Him? His Spirit transforming our spirit is truly what makes us One- aligned with His will. We are not Him but we look and sound like Him so others will connect with Him. Is this a correct way of explanation?

[@JoeKawano]

Looking for Jesus in a homeless guy? 14:50 Cringed at this?? “Whatsoever you have done to the least of these of mine, you have done it unto me.” (Mt. 25:41)

[@sheilacabrera3986]

That verse isn't saying the homeless man IS Jesus, or that the homeless man is even a part of Jesus. If you look up the words in their original Greek form (Blue Letter Bible & Bible Hub are great online resources to do this) you will see that "unto me" isn't a personal-pronoun like: I, me, she, her, him, they & them, but is a POSSESIVE-pronoun like: his, hers, theirs, or MINE, with the latter "mine" being the case in Mathew 25:41. I really do hope this helps.

[@Mary-hs3gu]

Kenneth Copeland says we are all little gods….

[@margaretbenedict-hutter39]

Please in New Jersey!!!

[@stringsattacked]

I'm looking for a recommendation for a good book to give high school graduates on Biblical worldview to prepare them for going into a potentially hostile college environment... any suggestions for something that would be an engaging read for this age? Thanks!

[@odonnelldenise]

Yes! Thinking Like a Christian-Understanding and Living a Biblical Worldview by David Noebel and Chuck Evans and Walking in Truth-The Christian Worldview by Summit Ministries

[@jameschaffey6458]

Quantum mechanics, string theory and different dimensions, like 3 dimension to 10-11 dimensions, I think help explain Gods position. Very interesting how it lines up with near death experiences and Gods position to us. God created every thing including all technology. If you look at it in the right way it lines up with the Holy Spirit

[@83licata]

The issue with religion, is it puts God in a box, He can only do a certain things at certain times, and has to be in specific way! It's the main reason why Jesus spoke in ill terms with the Pharisees and Sadducees. Numbers 23:19 is a very important verse, "God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes His mind. Does He speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?"

[@philipjackson4200]

Could you please make a video about how some people misuse the immutability of God to teach anti Christian things such as that if we sin, and then if God judges us for that sin, then we must have acted on God, against His immutability. This could be used to suggest that universalism must be true if God is immutable.

[@dianefarrell2343]

Did you ever get a chance to work with Francis Shaffer?

[@karenduncan6004]

Copeland actually tells his followers that they are all "little gods."

[@ericsmith7287]

I would wonder if Joyce takes these views as well. She and Copeland both preach little gods theology, which fits why he believes what he does about the creation and Adam.

[@trulyso734]

Fyi Adamic covenant theory teachings is not supported by the bible.. not as testified by our God! There was a covenant/promise contract made with His chosen nation Israel in the Old Testament, and then another new covenant/promise contract made with all of us now in the New Testament with His chosen ones from all nations including those who would believe in the Heavenly Prince of Peace Deliverer/Messiah Saviour Jesus whom He sent (of Himself, totally sinless in nature and filled with the same Majestic Glory, from the Kingdom of Heaven).

[@lindajohnson4204]

Of course, God doesn't experience emotions as we do. But since He expresses emotion, amd describes Himself in emotional terms, we should mot imagine Him as this emotionless being, as we are able to imagine it. He may have to speak anthropomorphically to communiicate some things to us, but He has not just given us some false emotional picture of Himself to sarisfy us. When He describes Himself in emotional terms, He is telling us the truth; when He describes himself as he does, it is as close to the true picture as He can get us. So when He talks about His grief, His anger and all the other emotions He describes Himself with, it is closer to the truth than imagining a being, stripped of emotion. If God doesn't have himan emotions, what He has in their pl as ce must be more than our emotions, not less. God is not an anti-emotion "Mr. Spock" character. He affirms feeling, and appeals to us through the emotions: "come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest..." When people cling too closely to these Cliffs Notes of systematic theology, to the point that we begin to scoff at the way God expresses Himself in the Bible, thi king we know better, we have misled ourselves.

[@moosechuckle]

When I read universal Christ (along with several other Rohr books) I noticed his inability to quote Bible verses correctly. Every verse he quotes is either grossly misinterpreted or changed, just enough, for it to agree with the statement he was conveying.

[@AndreasWiget]

I agree.

[@leenieledejo6849]

Because Rohr is of his father the devil, who also twists Scripture

[@Billybo-22]

What are those 2 books again by KC & RR? RR-Christ consciousness KC-?

[@jimyoung9262]

This was a good topic, but I was surprised by how much Alisa talked over her guest. She's usually much better about that.

[@ProverbsOne7]

She almost seemed a bit maniky in her speech in this video. Talking very fast. Not really like her. Lots of info to cover I guess. 🙂

[@joymahiko]

Coin? They are not worthy to be on a Coin. How about being stuck on the bottom of the right and left shoe?

[@karenmyers4886]

I appreciate this teaching. However, it seems a little longer than necessary. Your guest, Mr. Wiget, was not given much speaking time. At 54 minutes into the video, it seemed like you, Ms. Childers, dominated the conversation, cut him off over and over. So, I wondered, what was the point to have this guest on your podcast??

[@lanetteehresman9842]

Respectfully it's HER podcast so she directs the content.

[@nohandle00000]

Hold on. Im lost here. What about our breath. It's from God and of God, and it goes back to God when we die. I always thought it's God's breath in us (that's why even people who don't know God can separate good from evil)?

[@FollowingJesus129]

It's like hearing Arnold Schwarzenegger talk about God😂

[@robertmontgomery4742]

You must try to understand gnostic and hermetic futurity with some Hegelian philosophy to hear these men. Hat tip to James Lindsay.

[@dingotomtom]

I love listening to James Lindsay. We need to pray for him for salvation.

[@missymurphy9996]

He’s the nicest atheist I know, but sad that he understands with his head, but hasn’t grasped the gospel with his heart.

[@robertmontgomery4742]

@@missymurphy9996 I've heard him refer to himself as agnostic on the Stuckley show mistitled ...vs atheist... but I think James must realize one must choose a god not just sit in nowhereland.

[@robertmontgomery4742]

@@dingotomtom Indeed! I tghink James is coming to see that one must choose which god to serve. That theres no middle ground. I have heard him refer to himself as agnostic recently.

[@sheilacabrera3986]

@@missymurphy9996 Keep praying! I also love Dave Rubin & have watched him go from Atheist to believing in the God of Judaism (Yahweh). How did he arrive there? Well, I've heard him talk about his recognition that what's happening in the world is evil, so evil, that it must be coming from an ultimate source of evil, which conversely made him realize "If that's true, there must be an ultimate source of good Who is God." I'm praying now that Dave continues his journey, continues his questions, "What is good? What is love? What is holiness?" until he comes to understand how short we all fall & in Whom all of those things are found (Colossians 2:9). Praying that James searches for truth & he won't be satisfied with less & that search will lead him to the conclusion that God IS & He is "a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him", with the ultimate reward for his search being Jesus (Mathew 7:7; Revelation 3:20).

[@RobertlawrenceBDCMinistries]

Still as Dr Howe says...I havent drunk the Kool Aid yet... I still have doubts on simplicity since it seems it means the love of God is not distinct from the wrath of God, etc. I am not sure I buy fully that God can only be known through analogy either. I learn more toward WLC's metaphysics but I see that HUGE value in using Classical Thomist metaphysics in arguments for God existing.

[@AndreasWiget]

Classical theists distinguish between ad extra (God‘s external operations in the universe) and ad intra (the intrinsic conditions of God‘s essence). Classical theists believe this can be compared to a prism. The white light (ad intra) that shines through the prism is separated into its constituent colors (ad extra). This means clearer distinctions between God’s attributes are only seen ad extra. However, analogies in the natural world will always be limited in their capacity to explain a transcendent God. Even God‘s communicable attributes are only reflected with limitations in the created order. So, we can never fully grasp His perfections as long as our mind is limited by the constraints of the physical world. One of my concerns with WLC is that he reasons too much from the viewpoint of analogy in the natural world. Again, we have to do theology from the top down, not vice versa.

[@melissamartin8208]

Even in the early days of being a Christian, I felt uncomfortable listening to K.Copeland and stopped as a new Christian. Even now, I cannot stand to listen to him.

[@trulyso734]

That would be the grace of God working right there in spirit. .

[@wexwuthor1776]

I'm amazed at how many Christians are stuck on talking about how wrong everyone is who doesn't see things the "right" way. Seems like a better use of time to get closer to get closer to God for yourself. Judging others doesn't help your faith.

[@serafin1352]

I agree. There is one judge, Jesus Christ. I was raised a Jehovahs Witness and in 2018 kicked out/left the control group. Let me say this, they as a “religion” are one of the most judgmental religions out their! The things taught behind closed doors and what they proclaim on their website and at the doors is half truths. They look down on all others that are not JW and teach all will die at their version of Armageddon if not baptized as a JW.

[@leaterry1504]

We are supposed to call out false teachers!

[@Mojo19693]

Jesus warned us not to be deceived. Then we must know and understand who is doing the deceiving?

[@wexwuthor1776]

@@Mojo19693 Best defense against false teachers (or anything else) is deepening faith.

[@AfricanSheep]

@@wexwuthor1776 yes it is, but you also help those who are still on milk and not meat, the new or immature believers who could find themselves lead astray and we contend for the faith like Jude told us to.